PDA

View Full Version : Loyalist surivors of hh?



Grimstonefire
19-06-2015, 14:08
Just curious if there are any/ many space marines that are still alive in 40k? My 40k knowledge isn't great, but they are described as functionally immortal. Talking about loyalists only.

totgeboren
19-06-2015, 14:23
The only one I know of is Björn of the Space Wolves. There might be other dreads too I guess. I was listening to Angel Exterminatus yesterday, and in it Fabious Bile talks a bit about marines and their life span. Turns out they are not immortal, they do die of old age, and not only that, their line of work has a rather noticeable health hazard.

Look at it like this. If 50% of all marines live to be 200 years, the chances of them dying every year would need to be about 0.34%. That's a third of a percent chance of dying every year. But rack that up and after 200 years half the marines would be dead.

So surviving 10,000 years while still being involved in conflicts (which is what marines do) would be rather amazing. :p

7788
19-06-2015, 14:40
This is still developing, but Vulkan is portrayed as having been a perpetual. It would be a short step for GW to write into the lore SM that are perpetuals, still around in 40K. From memory, there are vague hints that other SM may have been perpetual. IIRC there was a story (sorry don't remember the title) where an HH-era SM was still around, but he was kept in stasis (he croaked as soon as he was awaken in 40K), which I guess disqualifies him.

Karhedron
19-06-2015, 14:42
During the HH novels, Marines have only been in existence around 200 years and no one knows what their lifespans are yet. Some of them claim to be immortal (and the Primarchs may well be) but the impression I get is that this is deliberately portraying ignorance on the part of the characters rather than a change to the fluff.

Th oldest Space Marine on record is indeed Bjorn the Fellhanded (now interred in a Dreadnought). He fought in the Great Crusade, then the Horus Heresy and was th first Great Wolf after Russ vanished.

Other notable oldies include Logan Grimnar (600 years), Ulrik the Slayer (unspecified but was Grimnar's mentor), Dante (1100 years) and Veteran Seargent Cleutin (age unspecified but was the leader of Dante's Scout squad). You can see a bit of a pattern there.

Some high ranking members of the Inquisition, AdMech and other important Imperial institutions have very long lives due to rejuve treatments and/or cybernetics but the limitations of these has not really been explored in the fluff.

Denny
19-06-2015, 14:48
Also worth noting that Blood Angels are described as having vastly extended lifespans compared to other marines.

This statement only makes sense if we assume Space Marines die of old age, otherwise how can some Marines have extended lifespans compared to others?

This doesn't rule out a loyalist surviving from the HH, but something screwy involving the Warp or stasis fields would have to be involved . . .

Poncho160
19-06-2015, 15:46
This is still developing, but Vulkan is portrayed as having been a perpetual. It would be a short step for GW to write into the lore SM that are perpetuals, still around in 40K. From memory, there are vague hints that other SM may have been perpetual. IIRC there was a story (sorry don't remember the title) where an HH-era SM was still around, but he was kept in stasis (he croaked as soon as he was awaken in 40K), which I guess disqualifies him.

I think that was in the first Salamanders book by Nick Kyme.

Lupe
20-06-2015, 08:48
Th oldest Space Marine on record is indeed Bjorn the Fellhanded (now interred in a Dreadnought). He fought in the Great Crusade, then the Horus Heresy and was th first Great Wolf after Russ vanished.

A close second would be Raguel the Sufferer, of the Blood Angels. Originally a captain of his legion, he fell at the Siege of Terra, was later entombed in Dreadnought armour, and was finally killed off (a second time) by the Night Lords dreadnought Malcharion (who had killed him off the first time around), at some unspecified point in M41.

nagash66
20-06-2015, 10:20
A close second would be Raguel the Sufferer, of the Blood Angels. Originally a captain of his legion, he fell at the Siege of Terra, was later entombed in Dreadnought armour, and was finally killed off (a second time) by the Night Lords dreadnought Malcharion (who had killed him off the first time around), at some unspecified point in M41.

Yeah was gonna mention this.

Keep in mind The fellhanded being the oldest does not preclude other HH dreads, just that they are 'younger' then him.

nagash66
20-06-2015, 10:21
A close second would be Raguel the Sufferer, of the Blood Angels. Originally a captain of his legion, he fell at the Siege of Terra, was later entombed in Dreadnought armour, and was finally killed off (a second time) by the Night Lords dreadnought Malcharion (who had killed him off the first time around), at some unspecified point in M41.

Yeah was gonna mention this.

Keep in mind The fellhanded being the oldest does not preclude other HH dreads, just that they are 'younger' then him.

WolMan
21-06-2015, 10:46
This is still developing, but Vulkan is portrayed as having been a perpetual. It would be a short step for GW to write into the lore SM that are perpetuals, still around in 40K. From memory, there are vague hints that other SM may have been perpetual. IIRC there was a story (sorry don't remember the title) where an HH-era SM was still around, but he was kept in stasis (he croaked as soon as he was awaken in 40K), which I guess disqualifies him.

I remember this too, but IIRC the HH-era Salamander was found during a mission in a once lost space ship and he was guarding someting, maybe a relic. After 10.000 years of guarding he was so tired and out of shape that apothecary showed him the emperors mercy.

Azazyll
21-06-2015, 12:39
Th oldest Space Marine on record is indeed Bjorn the Fellhanded (now interred in a Dreadnought). He fought in the Great Crusade, then the Horus Heresy and was th first Great Wolf after Russ vanished.

Other notable oldies include Logan Grimnar (600 years), Ulrik the Slayer (unspecified but was Grimnar's mentor), Dante (1100 years) and Veteran Seargent Cleutin (age unspecified but was the leader of Dante's Scout squad). You can see a bit of a pattern there.

Some high ranking members of the Inquisition, AdMech and other important Imperial institutions have very long lives due to rejuve treatments and/or cybernetics but the limitations of these has not really been explored in the fluff.

Bjorn was actually the youngest of Russ' wolguard, so it seems likely there are no other surviving dreadnought-interred marines from the Heresy. Or that this bit of lore is not to be taken literally, as the Black Library writers love the trick of unreliable narrators.

Ulrik is a bit of a problem - he was definitely not Grimnar's mentor, as Ulrik was not yet even offered a place in the Wol Guard at First Armageddon when he received recognition from Angron for his savagery, while Grimnar was already chapter master and Great Wolf. Yet Ulrik is noted as oldest Space Wolf besides dreadnoughts. This is further demonstration of the contradictions of the lore on such points. Rule of Cool applies.

It's actually a very medieval aproach to history, namely that the point wasn't absolute truth but moral truth. In this case emphasizing that age is the ultimate source of authority in the Imperium.

nagash66
21-06-2015, 13:00
Bjorn was actually the youngest of Russ' wolguard, so it seems likely there are no other surviving dreadnought-interred marines from the Heresy. Or that this bit of lore is not to be taken literally, as the Black Library writers love the trick of unreliable narrators.



The youngest of a primarchs personal guard is not a young marine by any rate. Any marine which was made so +1 day from him would still count and as it has already been stated in this thread we have examples of other HH marines and dread poping about either by means of warp travel or simply being another ancient ( but not as ancient ) dread as beorn.

No unreliable narrators, no if buts or maybes, solid facts.

Azazyll
21-06-2015, 13:38
Solid facts in a fictional, constantly changing setting :D

I really can't take any notion of "facts" seriously for 40k after they retconned the Edict of Nikea, and that was far from the first change. The Iyanden supplement for instance is riddled with glaring chronological errors. Narrative entertainment trumps continuity of "facts" repeatedly in the history of 40k. Which I enjoy enormously, because as a history professor I spend a great deal of my time trying to explain how badly we misuse the term "facts." "Facts" change, contradict each other, and shift in meaning as they relate to each other. One of the joys of 40k is that it is old, ungainly, multiauthored and sprawling, as fiction goes, and it is nearly impossible to establish uncontroversial "truth." Which makes it far more realistic.

As to more old loyalists, at least one source mentioned a Luna Wolf marine from before the Heresy who had survived into the 41st millennium due to warp travel or stasis (I forget which) horrified to learn of what his father and brothers had done. I believe it's in a timeline section from one of the older rulebooks.

7788
21-06-2015, 14:32
Solid facts in a fictional, constantly changing setting :D

I really can't take any notion of "facts" seriously for 40k after they retconned the Edict of Nikea, and that was far from the first change. The Iyanden supplement for instance is riddled with glaring chronological errors. Narrative entertainment trumps continuity of "facts" repeatedly in the history of 40k. Which I enjoy enormously, because as a history professor I spend a great deal of my time trying to explain how badly we misuse the term "facts." "Facts" change, contradict each other, and shift in meaning as they relate to each other. One of the joys of 40k is that it is old, ungainly, multiauthored and sprawling, as fiction goes, and it is nearly impossible to establish uncontroversial "truth." Which makes it far more realistic.

As to more old loyalists, at least one source mentioned a Luna Wolf marine from before the Heresy who had survived into the 41st millennium due to warp travel or stasis (I forget which) horrified to learn of what his father and brothers had done. I believe it's in a timeline section from one of the older rulebooks.

Just because a universe is fictional does not mean there are no in-universe facts (written-in as such), as well as in-universe POVs (also written-in as such). Unlike real-world history, the 30K/40K universe belongs to, and is developed, by a single entity. Further, the universe is not a free-standing endeavor: it is there in a supporting role. In-universe facts may change over time to reflect this supporting role, but that does not make them less valid. For instance: in old lore, Legions were much smaller than current lore. These are both in-universe "facts" and both valid for their respective environment. They only become invalid when you (inappropiately) mix IP from different time-periods, i.e. different game editions, i.e. different rules, i.e. different model lists.

There is also the bad decision factor: imo, GW hasn't always executed their IP in a coherent fashion. Regardless of whether changes in the IP (which down the road translate into changes of in-universe "facts") are well or badly applied, we cannot expect the universe to be properly evolving as a storyline. Looking at the history of GW's business practices it seems that that was never the goal. But we should expect it. The universe has become so complex, that its very complexity demands a minimum of coherence. It's a rule of complexity that small changes in one area can cause unexpected incoherence in another area. If you as a gamer or reader justifiably demand a certain level of coherence, these inconsistencies in applicable, current, (not retconned) lore should be identified, and GW should be asked to take care of business. Not that they will, of course. At least anyone can scream about it in this forum. But the best approach imo, is voting with your wallet. I'm actively following that approach.

I'm pretty sure you are correct about that Luna Wolf aside. But I think that like the Salamander mentioned previously, if his longevity was the result of warp antics or a stasis field it would probably not be what the OP was looking for.

WarsmithGarathor94
21-06-2015, 18:27
I believe the luna wolf one is mentioned in the Black Legion supplement he ends up joining the Black Legion due to Abbas on swaying him

Anima
22-06-2015, 19:58
There's Epimetheus, one of the eight original Grand Masters of the Grey Knights and former Dark Angel Legionnaire.
He slept in a Sus-an coma for nigh on ten thousand years.
He then fell into the hands of Abaddon, who has traded him to Fulgrim in exchange for Slaanesh's favour.

I believe there was also a heresy-era Blood Angels dreadnought in one of the Night Lord's novels, but he died.

ArtificerArmour
24-06-2015, 13:14
in the horrically bad Eye of Terror book, there's a Dark Angel found floating in space in his hypersleep thing, who is woken and has a changer of ways (I think) try and convince him Chaos won the heresy.

he obvs disbelieved it and ended up eating some word bearers brain to gain his memories and learn the truth.

did I say it was a horrific book?

Razios
25-06-2015, 01:59
in the horrically bad Eye of Terror book, there's a Dark Angel found floating in space in his hypersleep thing, who is woken and has a changer of ways (I think) try and convince him Chaos won the heresy.

he obvs disbelieved it and ended up eating some word bearers brain to gain his memories and learn the truth.

did I say it was a horrific book?

OK let me expalin this better:

a Dark angel was in the middle of the heresy, facing a world eater warband until someting goes wrong and he is throw up into the void of the space, then he wake there with his armour suplying energy until he runs out....only for wake in the eye of terror in a planet in the system of the roses....that literaly shape like a rose.

There he find out another dark angel that is clearly a fallen, he try to said that the imperium is gone and that chaos is actually a god thing, he dosent know why but for a time he fight with his friend, become a little bit khornite in the process, it finally end with a him fin a chaos altar almost giving his soul to khrone until the two humans who where there(long story) advice that the imperium is in fact alive, them there is a big badass battle between the dark angel and the fallen......JA, just kidding, he punch him once and them blow his brain and eat it, learing everything in the process.

Finally he is rescued and put to death in the rock while the other two humans actually get out of the eye without any issue....

Yeah, it was a strange time in the grim dark milleiun

DYoung
25-06-2015, 07:55
OK let me expalin this better:


How does this explain that better?

Razios
26-06-2015, 22:04
How does this explain that better?

I make sense in context.....really in context

Gazak Blacktoof
29-06-2015, 12:50
What about The Sanguinor? I get the impression that he is the sole survivor of Sanguinius' honour guard.

I don't know if he counts as 'alive'. Appearing as a literal angel in the chapter's hours of greatest need and then vanishing.

fluxdeluxe
29-06-2015, 21:12
Epimtheus of the grey knights founding member

possibly Omegon, possibly zahariel, possibly cypher

dusara217
01-07-2015, 07:38
We have no examples of Space Marines dying of old age, so it is completely possible that some Loyalists COULD have survived up to 40k. My pet theory is that Space Marines just have minute degradation to their combat abilities that lead to their demises in combat, but are sufficiently negligible to be ignored outside of combat.

On the Salamander: he died of atrophy, ie lack of nutrition, lack of exercise. etc. etc.

Lion El Jason
09-07-2015, 10:56
Silas Err of the Dark Angels is listed as the oldest loyal non-dreadnought Space Marine; that fluff is old but it does say it specifically as "Word of god" style writing.

Karhedron
09-07-2015, 20:16
Longest sun-an sleep IIRC. Not necessarily oldest.