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View Full Version : What part of the warhammer world you won't miss at all?



Konrad von Carstein
25-06-2015, 02:25
As a counter to the other thread. Title is self explanatory.

Chaos Wins LOL Mary Sues like Egil Styrbjorn
Grimbore being promoted as the most badass orc of all time
The End Times fluff for the elves


No flaming please, as I'm genuinely curious about this. :D

Just Tony
25-06-2015, 02:43
The End Times. I ignore it already, so not that big of a deal. I gave up on fluff when they dialed back the clock on Eltharion. He had actual development and they hit the reset button because 5th Ed. throwback writers, I suppose.

Groza
25-06-2015, 02:47
I honestly tried really hard and couldn't really think of something I disliked in the setting as it was up to the end times. I am sure stupid stuff has been written in recent years that I would single out but looking at the broader picture, there's not one thing I would change about the warhammer world.

EDIT: Ok, I thought of something, I won't miss skaven being so OP with presumably trillions of rats under the empire.

Gustav Kohn
25-06-2015, 02:48
Chaos wins is the part I definitely won't miss. Why make a game in which all of most factions actions are futile?

Kakapo42
25-06-2015, 03:20
The ET series. All of it. Including Nagash. That one element of background almost completely destroyed my enthusiasm for Warhammer long before the news about what 9th edition will likely be ever came out. It marked the point where my background separates from official canon forever.

The 'Chaos always wins' part too I guess, although I never really encountered that element much, and tended to largely ignore it if I did. Chaos wins? Not if my armies have anything to say about it! And something to say they do...

The 8th edition Wood Elf background. It really rubbed me the wrong way (ESPECIALLY arbitrarily splitting up the entirety of Athel Loren into only 12 realms. They couldn't have left any blank space for hobbyist-invented territories? Really?). But to it's credit it did give my Wood Elf background a very interesting new story hook in undoing it.

Of course it's all largely a moot point. Like I said on the other thread like this, the Warhammer World is still perfectly just fine for me. My armies went in and stopped the events of the ET series from ever happening, so while there was a whole bunch of other things that happened instead the setting is still largely intact.

GWexpat
25-06-2015, 03:35
Grimgor was always super lame.
ET stuff in general, especially having Thanquol become super powerful when he was always more of a klutz.
The space fungus Orc thing was pretty silly and entirely needless.
7th Edition Empire clockwork horses and stuff.

Philhelm
25-06-2015, 03:39
Definitely the Empire clockwork horses.
Dwarven gyrocopters.
Bretonnians worshipping an Elven deity.
Empire steam tank.

Sothron
25-06-2015, 05:08
The entire End Times crap. I simply refuse to accept it as canon. Not including that I never liked the Chaos Gods >>>> any other deity since that completely contradicts how the Liber Chaotica says the warp actually works.

taurus-marstein
25-06-2015, 05:16
I am fine with Chaos being better than anyone MOST of the time, but they should have gotten their butt's kicked at the end of the day. Like just some miracle ending where all chaos gets obliterated would have been appreciated. But of course thats not what happens.

Just imagine your army escaped into one of the teleportal gates that open up and you escape to Regalia.

hagen88
25-06-2015, 08:46
What I really won't miss is the static background, nothing could really move forward unless End Times. I really hope there will be more space to create our own stories in the future AoS.

Giankllr
25-06-2015, 10:15
Anything written by Mat Ward :D

Nightfall Shimmer
25-06-2015, 11:46
What I really won't miss is the static background, nothing could really move forward unless End Times. I really hope there will be more space to create our own stories in the future AoS.

This.

Also my 6th (or earlier) Skaven plastics. Gah. I hate those models so much. I never really read much fluff past the Skaven lore, mostly to get a 'feel' for them so I won't really must a whole lot at the end of the day.

Kotrag
25-06-2015, 12:02
As a counter to the other thread. Title is self explanatory.

Chaos Wins LOL Mary Sues like Egil Styrbjorn
Grimbore being promoted as the most badass orc of all time
The End Times fluff for the elves


No flaming please, as I'm genuinely curious about this. :D

I'm proud that someone other than me knows that guy's name. Also, Styrbjorn is awesome. Cry moar.

I wont miss anything that's not Norsca. Particularly I wont miss the Hung, as they were entirely needless and superflous. Their niche of vaguely Central Asian barbarians having been filled out by the Kurgan.

Also, I find it ironic that people are lamenting Chaos always winning while pining for some idiotic Deus Ex Machina where some southron ****-up arises and single-handedly leads the "good guys" to victory despite all factors pointing towards a Chaos victory. Seriously guys? That's what ALWAYS used to happen before the End Times came along.

For my part, I hope that the example of the End Times continues, and Chaos legitimately wins every major engagement. Especially if they plan out and execute a coherent strategy for how they're gonna win, like in Glottkin.

Kakapo42
25-06-2015, 12:24
What I really won't miss is the static background, nothing could really move forward unless End Times. I really hope there will be more space to create our own stories in the future AoS.



This.

How strange. I never had any problems whatsoever in moving things forward or creating my own stories in the Warhammer World. In fact I didn't start running into difficulties until the ET series happened. Maybe it's because I interpreted things in the background slightly differently?

Kotrag
25-06-2015, 12:31
How strange. I never had any problems whatsoever in moving things forward or creating my own stories in the Warhammer World. In fact I didn't start running into difficulties until the ET series happened. Maybe it's because I interpreted things in the background slightly differently?

Creating stories is easy, so long as they're entirely insignificant in the grand scheme of things. Moving the timeline forward however is impossible.

Oh, I've got another thing I wont miss: Konrad Von Carstein. :p

Groza
25-06-2015, 13:21
Creating stories is easy, so long as they're entirely insignificant in the grand scheme of things. Moving the timeline forward however is impossible.

I don't see why not.
Either you just develop your own fluff that is largely insignificant to the warhammer world at large, and have no problems with it, or you move the timeline but know that it won't be canon, why is as should be expected from any setting. I don't think a setting exists where each individual can move the timeline and still consider it "official", that is absurd.
Unless you are referring to "chaos always wins" which doesn't make sense because you're not forced to fast forward to the end of the world, you can just move on with what interests you and ignore the omens of the dark gods.


Oh, I've got another thing I wont miss: Konrad Von Carstein. :p
It's so weird that you said that. I don't know much about konrad and thus don't particularly dislike him but for some reason the first thing that popped to my mind when I read the OP was Konrad himself from an illustration as well as an image I had conjured in my mind while reading a short piece of fluff with him that was on a WD.

Kotrag
25-06-2015, 13:42
I don't see why not.
Either you just develop your own fluff that is largely insignificant to the warhammer world at large, and have no problems with it, or you move the timeline but know that it won't be canon, why is as should be expected from any setting. I don't think a setting exists where each individual can move the timeline and still consider it "official", that is absurd.
Unless you are referring to "chaos always wins" which doesn't make sense because you're not forced to fast forward to the end of the world, you can just move on with what interests you and ignore the omens of the dark gods.

The problem with moving the timeline forward by yourself is that, essentially whatever you make is likely only to appeal to you and your close friends, and everybody else will likely take umbrage with at least one aspect of whatever you've changed. And if we all did that, we'd essentially be trapped in our own little bubbles and be incapable of playing with anybody else, which is death for two-player game. (Of course, this easily applies to the End Times also, albeit to a lesser extent arguably, seeing as how they apparently sold pretty well)

For example, I've seen a lot of alternate timelines on Warhammer campaigns that posit that after the end of Storm of Chaos the Imperials went on an insane offensive and started pushing northwards towards the rift. Along the way, the managed to convert the Norse tribes to Sigmar. Nevermind that this didn't make sense, seeing as how the Empire was basically left battered even in Storm, and the obvious logistical problems of holding a mountainous, freezing, Chaos-infested hellhole like Norsca, filled as it is with unconquerable tribesmen who absolutely hate the Empire. But the main problem I had with it was because it essentially radically changed my favorite race into something that was precisely the opposite of what they were.

That's the quandry that tends to arise when we take it upon ourselves to advance the timeline. In many cases, it simply starts reading like an awful alternate history fanfic. The types where the writer relentlessly fanboys over his chosen nation, despite the fact that even by the story's own internal logic they shouldn't be doing near half as well as they are.

Kakapo42
25-06-2015, 13:54
Creating stories is easy, so long as they're entirely insignificant in the grand scheme of things. Moving the timeline forward however is impossible.

Not necessarily. I've never really had much problems with moving the timeline forward since I've always seen the setting in the same way as one might see an RPG setting, more a starting point that's up to hobbyists and gaming groups to advance for themselves, and once they do that advancement becomes cemented for them. So Bethryn, Jim and Tom might have a campaign about the High Elf/Dark Elf conflict, which eventually ends in the High Elves conquering Naggaroth and storming Malekith's stronghold before putting the Witch King in stocks while he stands trial for his innumerable atrocities and crimes, and that would become what happens in the Warhammer World of that gaming group. Meanwhile Kirsten, Alex and Mark have a similar campaign about the High Elf/Dark Elf conflict where the Dark Elves crush the Asur and seize Ulthuan for themselves, condemming the surviving High Elves to eternal slavery, and that outcome would become what happens in the Warhammer World of their gaming group.

Essentially I never really had much problems with advancing the setting in whatever direction you liked without it being officially confirmed, so long as nothing happened to explicitly contradict it. Basically the official background sets up the world, and then you the hobbyist do what you want with it, rather than official background dictating everything.

It also probably helps that I never really bought into some of the immutable facts about certain things. I tend to read background points like Chaos inevitably consuming the world or Malekith building up an unstoppable force or whatnot and see them as things for my own armies or characters to defeat or overcome, ideally through playing games and campaigns of Warhammer. What's that you say? A cabal of powerful undead sorcerers have captured an Elven princess and several other prominent figures, are planning to sacrifice them to awaken an immortal lord of undeath, and have them holed up in their giant nigh-impregnable fortress that's never truly been broken before? A High Elf force and Dwarf host both tried to rescue them but failed? Challenge accepted! :cool:

EDIT:


The problem with moving the timeline forward by yourself is that, essentially whatever you make is likely only to appeal to you and your close friends, and everybody else will likely take umbrage with at least one aspect of whatever you've changed. And if we all did that, we'd essentially be trapped in our own little bubbles and be incapable of playing with anybody else, which is death for two-player game. (Of course, this easily applies to the End Times also, albeit to a lesser extent arguably, seeing as how they apparently sold pretty well)

For example, I've seen a lot of alternate timelines on Warhammer campaigns that posit that after the end of Storm of Chaos the Imperials went on an insane offensive and started pushing northwards towards the rift. Along the way, the managed to convert the Norse tribes to Sigmar. Nevermind that this didn't make sense, seeing as how the Empire was basically left battered even in Storm, and the obvious logistical problems of holding a mountainous, freezing, Chaos-infested hellhole like Norsca, filled as it is with unconquerable tribesmen who absolutely hate the Empire. But the main problem I had with it was because it essentially radically changed my favorite race into something that was precisely the opposite of what they were.

That's the quandry that tends to arise when we take it upon ourselves to advance the timeline. In many cases, it simply starts reading like an awful alternate history fanfic. The types where the writer relentlessly fanboys over his chosen nation, despite the fact that even by the story's own internal logic they shouldn't be doing near half as well as they are.

I'm not sure I really see the problem. If you don't like the way someone else has advanced the setting for themselves, then you can ignore it - no one is forcing you to accept their background developments over your own. If you're having a game with someone and their background is incompatible with yours, then simply play the game, and come up with your own take on things once you've finished, and they can do the same.

That's the great thing about the 'static' setting, it provided the opportunity to take things wherever you wanted. You want the Empire to go on the offensive and conquer the Northern Wastes? Go ahead! It sounds like it could make for a great campaign. You want the hordes of Chaos to rampage through the Empire until it's utterly destroyed? You can do that too. And if other people latch onto your background then so much the better.

I think it might be a perspective thing. I'm fine with there not being any one singular outcome for the Warhammer World. I can come up with how I want things to go, and other people can do the same. Then everyone is happy.

Ramius4
25-06-2015, 14:01
The 8th edition Wood Elf background. It really rubbed me the wrong way (ESPECIALLY arbitrarily splitting up the entirety of Athel Loren into only 12 realms. They couldn't have left any blank space for hobbyist-invented territories? Really?).

To be fair, none of the other realms have 'blank space' either. Why would they?

Kakapo42
25-06-2015, 14:10
To be fair, none of the other realms have 'blank space' either. Why would they?

I'd say Naggaroth has plenty. There's lots of blank empty continent where you could potentially put down a city of your own invention and come up with a reason why it isn't marked on every map. Ulthuan, Bretonnia and The Empire are a bit more restrictive, true, and I actually have similar feelings there to a lesser extent. I think what particularly grates me so much about the Athel Loren ones is that they're largely an invention of the 8th edition book, whereas most of the other examples are considerably older. But I think that might be a discussion for another thread.

Rake
25-06-2015, 14:24
Won't miss Grimgore. At all. Ever.
Love seeing chaos as one more bad guy. Not THE bad guy.
Hopefully more balanced magic?! :P

infamousme
25-06-2015, 14:42
Tomb kings. I was never, in the slightest bit, interested in that army.

Spiney Norman
25-06-2015, 16:37
1. The end times in their entirety
2. Araloth (most mary-sueish, one dimensional character in the history of the game)
3. Grimgor (second most 1 dimensional character in the history of the game)

hagen88
25-06-2015, 20:46
2. Araloth (most mary-sueish, one dimensional character in the history of the game)


Then you might be disappointed... my gut feeling is that he'll be back and more mary sueish than ever!

Mentat Bashar
25-06-2015, 20:56
For me, all the narrative inconsistencies that over the years made less and less sense. The Empire being constantly shown as the greatest nation of Men but still everywhere in the fluff they got their behinds handed to them because chaos and the need for drama. The Elves and Dwarfs being repetitiously described as a dying race to the point that it didn't make sense that they mustered armies at all (instead of, for instance, arming humans and using them for proxy). Or that the Skaven numbered in the billions right under the Empire, fighting in huge battles against armies of Men, but still they were considered a myth. All those things never bothered me as a kid, but as I got older I payed less and less attention to the fluff and even got irritated when the army books contained lots of it (and sometimes just reprinted huge parts verbatim). It became obvious that from a narrative standpoint, the Fantasy setting was getting more and more stagnant.

Tyranno1
26-06-2015, 13:26
1: Everything from End Times. The writing was good in the first one, but the entire effect of the whole thing? Leave that at the door.

2: Matt Ward retconning the elven history to match the Eldar's. This was not needed, in any way. There was no evidence Slaanesh ate elf souls before 8th, where did this come from?

Spiney Norman
27-06-2015, 01:29
Then you might be disappointed... my gut feeling is that he'll be back and more mary sueish than ever!

Unfortunately you're right, the other thing I really disliked about wfb was the importance of the medieval pseudo-Catholic cult of sigmar (I even converted myself non-sigmarite warrior priests) to the point of almost excluding the rest of the human pantheon, unfortunately it looks like this has been exaggerated to the nth degree in AoS.

jet_palero
27-06-2015, 06:20
What I really won't miss is the static background, nothing could really move forward unless End Times. I really hope there will be more space to create our own stories in the future AoS.

I always liked warhammer because it was where we made up our own stories. same reason I avoided special characters, why would I want to just play someone elses story? WFB was a great setting for people to create their own place in. I didn't need the timeline to move forward, although I didn't mind if it did (until of course everything went "lol, they all died.")

Risegreymon
27-06-2015, 17:12
Lizardmen. Sorry, Lustria fans, it was just too alien for Fantasy.

Just Tony
27-06-2015, 17:30
Why does everyone hate Grimgor so much? He's essentially the WFB version of Ghazkull, which is about as Orky/Orcy as it gets. Granted, he was Mary Sued in the SOC resolution which sucked no matter how you slice it, but he's nowhere near as bad as Archaon who gets everything on everything because lolChaos.

snyggejygge
27-06-2015, 21:02
I won't miss lizardmen, they just didn't fit in imo.
Nor will I miss Grimgor, he's basically the Hulk, going :Hulk smash! Boring with no personality, the other greenskin characters are much better.
@JustTony: Archaon at least have an interesting backstory & a reason to destroy everything, Grimgor has nothing...

Just Tony
28-06-2015, 05:46
You see, I'm different than most here. Some people have simple backstories and simple motivations. Look at Gen. George Patton. He was about as one dimensional as they come, nothing about him varied. Yet he endures as one of the most interesting historical figures of all time. Or take Alexander of Macedon. Some people don't need a far reaching convoluted backstory or a grocery list of motivations. Some people simply exist to conquer.

Shas'El Tael
28-06-2015, 06:25
edit: Argh two pages open, bad idea.

Personally, won't miss the world ending amount of Skaven. Apparently they could have done ET on their own.