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View Full Version : GW is giving away free rules...........What?!



lordreaven448
26-06-2015, 21:56
http://www.games-workshop.com/en-CA/The-Hobbit-The-Battle-of-the-Five-Armies-Strategy-Battle-Game-PDF

Hell has frozen over. :wtf:

mikesmight123
26-06-2015, 22:32
I think there getting ready to end lotr

mdauben
26-06-2015, 23:19
http://www.games-workshop.com/en-CA/The-Hobbit-The-Battle-of-the-Five-Armies-Strategy-Battle-Game-PDF

Hell has frozen over. :wtf:
IMO it's just another example of them half-***ing the Hobbit line. They just couldn't be bothered to develop proper army lists or print an actual source book for the final movie, so we get this. [emoji36]

From a Galaxy far, far away...

Wintermute
27-06-2015, 07:24
Haven't these rules always been free ie they were originally free with a WD in December 2014?

And of course they are not go and try to sell this rule set because, lets face it, The Hobbit has been a sales disaster for GW and they shouldn't have touched it with a barge poll in the first place.

mikesmight123
27-06-2015, 07:31
Thread seems to be off topic....

Anyway having played at a gw store for a while I have never seen a lotr game take place.

mdauben
27-06-2015, 10:45
Haven't these rules always been free ie they were originally free with a WD in December 2014?

And of course they are not go and try to sell this rule set because, lets face it, The Hobbit has been a sales disaster for GW and they shouldn't have touched it with a barge poll in the first place.
It's a sales disaster because GW made it one. Given the relative popularity of the two movie trilogies The Hobbit game was never going to be as popular as LOTR was, but it could have been more successful if GW hadn't overpriced and under supported it from the start.

From a Galaxy far, far away...

Replicant253
27-06-2015, 11:45
It's a sales disaster because GW made it one. Given the relative popularity of the two movie trilogies The Hobbit game was never going to be as popular as LOTR was, but it could have been more successful if GW hadn't overpriced and under supported it from the start.

From a Galaxy far, far away...

Whilst I agree with you, there are strong rumours that the movie guys were also a big factor in GW deciding to put minimal effort into the game to meet their contractual responsibilities. The relationship between GW and the film studio was not a happy one and GW were very much marginalised.

Sent from my Nexus 10 using Tapatalk

Wintermute
27-06-2015, 13:21
It's a sales disaster because GW made it one. Given the relative popularity of the two movie trilogies The Hobbit game was never going to be as popular as LOTR was, but it could have been more successful if GW hadn't overpriced and under supported it from the start.


Leaving aside the pricing issue, which is a subject for the dedicated pricing thread in GW General and not here, The Hobbit failed due to lack of interest and very, very low demand. It was never going to be a success.

mikesmight123
27-06-2015, 13:56
Leaving aside the pricing issue, which is a subject for the dedicated pricing thread in GW General and not here, The Hobbit failed due to lack of interest and very, very low demand. It was never going to be a success.


If that's true then why did.they make a glorious smaug model? Were they contractually obliged?

Harwammer
27-06-2015, 15:06
I checked my copy of this pdf on my laptop and it is dated as 22.12.2014 so it's been given away for quite some time.

Regarding Smaug, I believe he is actually a fairly well selling model, isn't he?

mdauben
27-06-2015, 15:32
Leaving aside the pricing issue, which is a subject for the dedicated pricing thread in GW General and not here, The Hobbit failed due to lack of interest and very, very low demand. It was never going to be a success.
We'll never know for sure, as the opportunity for this game has come and gone, but I don't see how anyone can argue that the two issues I raised didn't have an impact on that lack of success. I know of a number of people who were looking forward to the Hobbit releases who's interest was cooled specifically due to them.

From a Galaxy far, far away...

EmperorNorton
27-06-2015, 15:52
Considering all three of the (horrible, horrible) Hobbit movies are in the top 30 of the highest grossing movies of all time I think it is a pretty bold claim that a game based on them could under no circumstances have become a success.

Jind_Singh
27-06-2015, 20:50
LOTR

Was a massive success - wildest dreams come true - and allowed GW to grow their infrastructure to produce the amazing kits that they do today, they made money hand over fist.

The Hobbit

They THOUGHT it was going to be amazing again and really did put their heart & soul into the franchise:

Goblin Town - hands down an AMAZING starter set that makes Mines of Moria look like Snakes & Ladders
The three trolls - IN PLASTIC
Grim Hammers - IN PLASTIC
Men of Dale - IN PLASTIC
Elves - IN PLASTIC
Range of characters in Finecast
Giant Eagles - IN PLASTIC
Evles in Finecast
MASSIVE rule book crammed with rules and scenerios

At the same time they also made a great set of minis for the Desolation of Smaug and some new minis

To make that plastic kit is a cost of BIG dollars - you do not lightly make a mould for a kit that is not expected to do well.

But it flopped - can't say it was really GW as at the time I saw them promote the Hobbit instore - I saw multiple White Dwarfs crammed with SBG articles, and overall it didn't fly.

Why?

My reasoning is:

1) Price - VERY expensive compared to LOTR but that is also due to the tougher agreement they had this time round (those Movie companies also anticipated LOTR type sales I'm guessing)

2) Been there, done that - the base of people who flocked to LOTR are no longer around, let's face it, the LOTR hobby has been on wobbly last legs FOR YEARS! Why would those players come back to Support the Hobbit?

Either they:

- Moved to other GW Games and won't go back to LOTR
- Would like to but know, full well, what the eventual fate of their models would be. Collecting dust or being sold for next to nothing - or thrown away - as support for the game fades away, like it did with LOTR.

LOTR/The Hobbit, by nature, can't expand and grow - the story is fixed, very final, and can't be altered. There are SOME regions that can be expanded (like they did for the Fallen Realms for e.g.), but even so there is only so much story to mine.

There can be some tweaks to rules and what not for new editions but ultimately it's not like they can make expansions on the scale of Warhammer or 40k - even the models are so restricted by the strong imagery of the movies.

Gandlaf will always be Gandalf regardless of him wearing his hat, carrying it, etc.

To say that GW put no effort into the franchise is very unfair as the sheer amount of money they spent, and the kits they produced, shows a very optimistic outlook - which quickly turned to dust when they had very poor sales. In my local store paints sell more than LOTR - and that's despite a resurgence of the hobby in my store. Yes sales for LOTR doubled since I've brought these various players back out of retirement, and we've recruited new players - heck we have even started a Facebook group *West Coast Hobbits* and are launching our own You Tube Channel next year - but it still doesn't help that despite double sales we can't even touch their paint and white dwarf sales!

Smooth Boy
28-06-2015, 05:11
Yeah while the Hobbit was a financial success the LotR was huge and reinvigorated the fantasy genre when it had effectively died over the 1990's.

Wintermute
28-06-2015, 07:16
Considering all three of the (horrible, horrible) Hobbit movies are in the top 30 of the highest grossing movies of all time I think it is a pretty bold claim that a game based on them could under no circumstances have become a success.

It doesn't follow that successful box office receipts convert into successful merchandise sales.

I genuinely believe the demand for a game based on The Hobbit from GW wasn't sufficient enough and GW made a mistake. The interest in LotR as a miniatures game had already vanished.

Just look at Escape from Goblin Town. GW are still selling the limited edition version three and a half years after release which means they either only produced one version, or which I think is more likely, they are still selling the original copies from the original print run and if this is the case it's a disaster.

There is so little interest in LotR and The Hobbit that several months ago there were calls for this sub form to be closed.

The Marshel
28-06-2015, 10:27
I genuinely believe the demand for a game based on The Hobbit from GW wasn't sufficient enough and GW made a mistake. The interest in LotR as a miniatures game had already vanished.

....

There is so little interest in LotR and The Hobbit that several months ago there were calls for this sub form to be closed.

What's left of the playing community avoids these sort of sites due to the more hostile reception SBG gets from a lot of 40k and fantasy fans. considering the support it gets, SBG is going quite well among the established player base. Australia's tournament scene is actually quite active. The main difference is that it's become small communities sustaining themselves rather relying on GW support. It's becoming more and more like Oldhammer groups.

Long story short, Lotr SBG is still quite strong, just not nearly as visible (and in all honesty, we don't need this sub forum, no-one goes to warseer for lotr sbg discussion and no-one is going to pick up lotr based on warseer's sbg discussion)

A lot has gone against the Hobbit SBG from both the larger powers in play and GW themselves. You can really see how the late change to 3 movies, addition of Azog etc bumped the releases around. Notice that we basically have plastics up to Barrels out of Bond, the original ending point of the first movie back when there were going to be just 2

Gw did a lot of things differently when they did LOTR, things they weren't prepared to do this time, and that's killed things pretty comprehensivly. For example the mirkwood elves and lake town militia models have been very popular, but the fact that they are resin rather then plastic puts so many people off. You can say that the plastics they released with AUJ weren't successful, but there wasn't much in-store support to go with them and far to much confusion over core aspects of the line (when would we get Azog? What's with the Bolg model? Why do the dwarf warriors look very unlike the ones we saw in the smaug prolouge? etc etc)

I don't entirely blame GW, but they've hardly helped the situation. They basically discarded SBG the moment they released WOTR, only to then dump WOTR and give a half arsed reboot to SBG. A lot more could have been done to cement the future of SBG as a long term wargaming prospect, but they never nailed down a set direction to commit to and have suffered for it.

mdauben
28-06-2015, 12:54
.
LOTR/The Hobbit, by nature, can't expand and grow - the story is fixed, very final, and can't be altered. There are SOME regions that can be expanded (like they did for the Fallen Realms for e.g.), but even so there is only so much story to mine.

I know GW's sales model has always been based on revising and redoing their games on a regular basis, but AFAIK that is hardly universal in the gaming and miniatures industry. Personally, early on one of my fears for the game was that GW would try to follow that path with LOTR, and end up mucking the whole thing up.

As you said, the LOTR story is fixed. With JRR Tolkien long dead there is never going to be any new material, and as long as Christopher Tolkien is alive the other source material (Silmarillion, etc.) will remain untouchable. Personally, I was always okay with that. I wanted to game in that setting, using forces and scenarios drawn from the books. I can be quite happy if nothing "new" is ever made for LOTR (although I admit to wishing for a bit more Hobbit material for the game). My sorrow us just that what we have is going away.

I know Mithril has made (IMO rather crude) LOTR miniatures since long before the movies and continues to so to this day. Why can they succeed when GW, with arguably superior miniatures and a game system to drive miniatures sales, I'm not sure. Maybe it's just another case of not losing money but of GW demanding a higher return on their investment that LOTR (or most games) can sustain? Look at GW's own Fantasy game. From what we hear it's "failing" too. Is this again a case of a game losing money, or of some not generating much higher revenue than is typical from tabletop wargame?


From a Galaxy far, far away...

The Marshel
28-06-2015, 15:38
LOTR/The Hobbit, by nature, can't expand and grow - the story is fixed, very final, and can't be altered. There are SOME regions that can be expanded (like they did for the Fallen Realms for e.g.), but even so there is only so much story to mine.


Actually if I might weigh in on this point....

this really depends on how exactly you wan't to define expand. Gw can't expand the middle earth universe much at all, but there is a lot they could have done to explore other aspects of the setting, expanding their own line. They sorter did do to some degree prior to and during the earlier stages of WOTR. In all reality there was a lot of space to still be filled if they really wished to, and while unending expansion isn't viable, is that really any different for 40k and fantasy? did they not just destroy the fantasy setting rather then try to continue it? So yeah, there is an upper limit to how far you can take LOTR SBG, but in reality, all things have to end at some point

A good example of expansion opportunity is the war of Last Alliance. The period this war takes part in has a wealth of potential for wargaming. As Factions, Numenor and Eriagon elves have potential for a huge amount of depth that doesn't exist in the current line. Consider a second age supplement that provided a separate plastic kit for warriors of numenor and "High elf" warriors, as opposed to the shared kit they currently have, which requires numenor archers, numenor spearmen and elf spearmen to be produced in metal/resin. This alone would be a huge boost to the two factions, without even considering opportunity for new units and heroes. We could have had the Rivendell Knights well earlier then the Hobbit. depth could also have been added to other factions involved in the last alliance, such as a profile and model for Oropher, legolas' grandfather. On the evil side, a second age supplement gives a chance to introduce dwarves fighting on sauron's side (which actually did happen).

Another undeveloped set of factions are Arnor and Agmar. The fall of Arnor supplement introduces these forces tentatively, but does a very poor job of representing each at their height. Creative licencee would be required to make these forces more then just different versions of Gondor and Mordor, but the opportunity is there to actually develop two full and distinctive armies.

And then we have the East. The Easterlings of Rhun are hardly mentioned in the books. Their representation in the movies barely matches this mention. From that portrayal in the movies GW developed a strong aesthetic style for the force that they combined with the Sauron worshipping narrative from the books to create a more expansive army option then just a column of armoured warriors with halberds. The East is mysterious and not well explored in tolkien's works, which leaves a lot of blank space for gw to fill with their own ideas (such as "dragon knights" and "war priest"). There is also major WOTR timeline events you can anchor this around, with the Easterlings being heavily involved in the massive and almost successful Siege or Erabor that occured at the same time as Pellenor Fields and the Battle at the Black Gate, which gives Gw opportunity to explore the rebuilt Dale and Erabor setting post hobbit

Even within one of their most developed factions, Gondor, exist a huge wealth of narrative and pre-built world to explore. Pelegir for example could have an army list comparable to what is currently available to Numenor on them alone. Dol Amroth could sustain a faction independent to the rest of the Fiefdoms list.

There is a finite limit to where they can go, but there is plenty of room for expansion on what they currently have. Hints of this can easily be seen in the legions of middle earth supplement where they teased future army expansions included expanded 2nd age content and more mythological components to dol goldur/agmar. WOTR did similar by including a large number of units and heroes based on expanded concepts and unused established background that completely lacked miniature support (Dunlending horsemen, Pelgir wardens, Queen Buthiel). From the last 3 supplements before WOTR (Gondor in flames, Harad and Mordor) to the soft reboot prior to the Hobbit, they pushed the game more towards clearer faction by faction divide rather then the loose "good vs evil" narrative based divide of the previous supplements.

You can see a vague direction GW wanted to take the line, but their inability to commit to a specific future killed it before the Hobbit even began. The plan for WOTR was far removed from the plan set by LOME, and by the time they abandoned WOTR, they'd neglected SBG far to much to be fixed by the soft reboot alone (further support later would have been necessary). The unclear and inconsistent plan for the future has done nothing to help the line.

Maybe the demand isn't there anymore, but at a time there was. There was a point, post ROTK where many numerous factors influenced the long term survival of the line. I think GW's decisions have played a significant role in the decline, as much as, if not more so the waning interest in all things LOTR

Jind_Singh
29-06-2015, 05:53
There is so little interest in LotR and The Hobbit that several months ago there were calls for this sub form to be closed.

Well I, for one, am glad you folks kept this section of the forum alive as I enjoy it still! Fair enough there are just a handful of posters but our numbers slowly grow.

I love Warseer as Warhammer & 40k are my main games - so for me it's great having the freedom to post about all 3 of my game loves!

Thanks Warseer Management for keeping this section alive!

Jobu
29-06-2015, 19:03
GW put very little effort into The Hobbit outside model creation. There was no magazine ( like battle games in middle earth) with miniatures, there was no advertisement or placement of the game in alternative venues, there were few articles. I do believe the movie studios had something to do with this, there were two studios ( can not remember which ones) that already delayed the production of the movies( and resulted in the loss of Del Toro ), then they went from two movies to three, then there were CGI redesigns at the last minute ( Bolg, Smaug etc.). Yes, cost is a factor as well. When a metal foot soldier was 5$, now a finecast one of the same model is $8, while the same thing happened with the plastics. I think this was to bring them inline with the other games in terms of cost per model.

I agree with others, these forums are simply hostile towards this game. I doubt many of those who vilify the game played it long enough (or at all) to really understand how much a player has to think ahead when moving each of those 30+ models first, that the game is battle(not storyline) scenario based, or that in most cases the game is over once a force reaches 50%, which is why it is/should be difficult to kill models, or that you may need a lot of 6's to kill. It does take strategy to win. This game is well balanced, with no singular overly powerful army, only a couple of slightly weak ones. It is also really cheap if one starts with Battle Companies, you just need one box of any army, rule book, dice and a ruler.
The other popular argument is the "closed" storyline, which is of course the reason so many people want to play 30k, historical games, or Flames of War. How many fantasy players will want to play pre AoS fantasy battle? Most ridiculous criticism I have ever heard in regards to table top war gaming.

Jind_Singh
30-06-2015, 18:50
Great points Jobu and I must agree for the most part.

It is odd about how other gaming groups look down at LOTR (from 40k or WHFB perspective). At our local GW we do get the occasional chant of:

"Roll a SIX!"

But it's typically in good spirit. The only time I've encountered hobby hostility is talking to Privateer Press members who just HAVE to s**t all over the GW parade as they feel that their game, community, and company are so much better or superior than the GW players.

Which is odd as hardly anyone at my GW even mentions PP, cares about PP, and if they do meet PP players it's always "oh cool looking models", rarely do I see hostility back.

But we may be in a vacuum over here so hard to say on the Global scale what's going on.

Actually since we started playing again at the store we've even had 3 new people start who were strict 40k/WHFB players - which is amazing - and we've seen a lot of the old Guard slowly come back as they realize that the SBG hobby is still holding it's own - and we're slowly getting more recognition from the other gamers.

Can't beat a good old game of SBG - although I wonder how Age of Sigmar will change that as it's very much looking like LOTR but with bigger models!

mdauben
30-06-2015, 21:21
I remember a LOT of hostility against LOTR from 40K players in particular, at least in the online forums. They seemed to feel that resources spent on LOTR should have been spent on THEIR game instead.

In my FLGS there was a strong core of SBG fans and when we played if anyone else in the shop said anything it was generally positive.

From a Galaxy far, far away...