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Herkamer63
27-06-2015, 05:57
This has been the one question I've wondered about for quite awhile since Khorne Daemonkin was released and the other reports of more codices like it. Though I have not purchased the current Daemonkin codex, I wonder if any of it will make its way into CSM. Of course, the Daemonkin codices could be a way to see what is coming in the next CSM codex.

One thing that may remain the same are all the CSM units (all from the CSM Codex, if you didn't know what I was talking about) inside Khorn Daemonkin. Now, this could only be the base of what they can already do. The Blood Tithe pts, from what I read online, give the CSM squads a pretty awesome boost. The ability to turn a character into a Bloodthirster, among other abilities, seems to be worth the trouble of acquiring BT pts. Though I noticed there seems to be 2 pt cost per model more for the CSM squads because of the Mark of Khorne, the rules still more than make up for the pt increase.

The fact that the codex has its own special rules for the whole army (both CSM and CD squads) gives us the right amount of fluff to make it diverse. The next question is will we see Chapter Tactic like rules in the next CSM codex? A major possibility has opened up to it, and we could actually see Legion rules. I know this was talked about on other threads, and, since then, have been discredited by others. But given the fact that Khorne Daemonkin wasn't just a simple "copy and paste" codex from the CSM and CD codices, and alternate rules were put in there, I wouldn't be surprised if we may actually see something for the Legions headed our way. I can also see the return of Mark of Undivided. How it can be used? I'm not sure, but maybe havin the ability to join other squads of other Marks and giving buffs to squads that also have Mark of Undivided. Whatever the case, it brings me to my last point before I hand it off to you guys.

Instead of seeing all the other God specific armies in the form of Daemonkin codices, I bet the next CSM codex will focus on the Unified Chaos Renegades (Chapters and Warbands) and Traitor Legions. We could see the Chaos equivalent to C:SM: both size of the book and rules. We'll see units and characters make a return, since we're expecting them to be absent from the other Daemonkin codices (i.e. no Kharn in KD, nor the obliterators and mutilators). Just don't expect Daemons making it in, with the exception of the Daemon Prince.

So for those who are still down in the dumps over CSM as they are now, keep your chin up. Whether if they get a big book or individual ones, I get the feeling we're going to see a very interesting army/armies come out. What do you guys think? Too hopeful, or close to what's been going on? What will become of the followers of the Dark Gods? Sound off?

shabbadoo
27-06-2015, 09:10
CSM need a BIG book with Legion rules. Do it like Chapter Tactics for all of the known Legions. Last, throw in one more entry entitled "Renegades". Then you will have the Legions and Renegades covered. Maybe even throw in entries for notable renegades, such as the Astral Claws and the newer (and apparently iconic) Crimson Slaughter. So, a list of eleven or so "Chaos Tactics" for Chaos Space Marines players to choose from to build armies. This will provide for a way to run forces purely made up of Legion units dedicated to one of the four Chaos Gods (i.e. World Eaters, Emperor's Children, Deathguard, Thousand Sons), and to run any of the others besides. Then provide Detachments/Formations that are in character, such as some sort of Iron Warriors Warsmith + deranged Dark Mechanicus thralls, a Sorcerers' Conclave that can work for anybody (but in particular for the Thousand Sons), flesh out the Cultist entry to allow for an actual leader who can be a level 1 Sorcerer, and allow for ALL units in the codex to be marked, if the "Chaos Tactics" chosen dictate it. Seeing as there should be lots of Detachments and Formations included in the book next time around, those (along with CAD and Unbound) should see a dizzying array of possibilities when putting together a force of Chaos Space Marines. Imagine that- Chaos in all its varied forms! :D

totgeboren
27-06-2015, 16:05
All we can do is wait and see, but I have to say I hope they finally give up on a combined Legion and Renegade theme.
Having both those in the same list is a bit like making combined SW/DA codex. You would get weird questions like "Since when did DA ride big Wolves?" and "I didn't know SW were famous for all-Terminator armies and being lead by Chaplains".
The same result is what you get from the CSM codex. Why does Renegades have HH-era dreads and terminators? Where did all their Land Raiders, Razorbacks, Drop Pods and Scouts go? Where did they get all those Daemon engines from, and why have all their HQs lost their Storm Shields and Thunderhammers?

Renegades have a completely different armoury to the Legionaries who have had 10,000 years of exile to differentiate them and their industrial base.

Andy p
27-06-2015, 16:27
CSM need a BIG book with Legion rules. Do it like Chapter Tactics for all of the known Legions. Last, throw in one more entry entitled "Renegades". Then you will have the Legions and Renegades covered. Maybe even throw in entries for notable renegades, such as the Astral Claws and the newer (and apparently iconic) Crimson Slaughter. So, a list of eleven or so "Chaos Tactics" for Chaos Space Marines players to choose from to build armies. This will provide for a way to run forces purely made up of Legion units dedicated to one of the four Chaos Gods (i.e. World Eaters, Emperor's Children, Deathguard, Thousand Sons), and to run any of the others besides. Then provide Detachments/Formations that are in character, such as some sort of Iron Warriors Warsmith + deranged Dark Mechanicus thralls, a Sorcerers' Conclave that can work for anybody (but in particular for the Thousand Sons), flesh out the Cultist entry to allow for an actual leader who can be a level 1 Sorcerer, and allow for ALL units in the codex to be marked, if the "Chaos Tactics" chosen dictate it. Seeing as there should be lots of Detachments and Formations included in the book next time around, those (along with CAD and Unbound) should see a dizzying array of possibilities when putting together a force of Chaos Space Marines. Imagine that- Chaos in all its varied forms! :D

More likely the opposite though, with separate legion books for each one.

Herkamer63
27-06-2015, 16:45
All we can do is wait and see, but I have to say I hope they finally give up on a combined Legion and Renegade theme.
Having both those in the same list is a bit like making combined SW/DA codex. You would get weird questions like "Since when did DA ride big Wolves?" and "I didn't know SW were famous for all-Terminator armies and being lead by Chaplains".
The same result is what you get from the CSM codex. Why does Renegades have HH-era dreads and terminators? Where did all their Land Raiders, Razorbacks, Drop Pods and Scouts go? Where did they get all those Daemon engines from, and why have all their HQs lost their Storm Shields and Thunderhammers?
Renegades have a completely different armoury to the Legionaries who have had 10,000 years of exile to differentiate them and their industrial base.

I wouldn't be opposed to Legion books. Honestly, they could pull a Codex: Adeptus Astartes like series, except with more Chaos, obviously. Have a starting title along the lines of 'Codex: Chaos Space Marines', then whatever Legion or Renegade Chapter at the bottom Where it's all different codices with different rules, they are all under the same codex.

And your righto say Renegades have a different armory than the Legions. It would make more sense for them to have a different set up. However, from what we saw from KD, I'm afraid it'll be close to the same wargear we have now in the current CSM codex. Hopefully, I'm wrong.

WarsmithGarathor94
27-06-2015, 20:13
Personally i dont mind the current armory. While i like that we have some of the loyalist options hell no i do not want storm shields or thunder hammers on characters and terminators nor do i want drop pods. Id actually rathet they focussed on making us a decent shooting army with decent close combat ability on our units

Mr Zoat
27-06-2015, 20:23
Wouldn't it make more sense to move Renegades to Codex: Space Marines?

Voss
27-06-2015, 20:25
This has been the one question I've wondered about for quite awhile since Khorne Daemonkin was released and the other reports of more codices like it. Though I have not purchased the current Daemonkin codex, I wonder if any of it will make its way into CSM?
Eh? Its 45% straight out the CSM book, and 45% out of the daemon book and some bridge filler to get around Khorne=no psykers to summon.
There really isn't anything to put back in the CSM book that isn't already there barring going back to a single unified chaos book. (marines and daemons)

WarsmithGarathor94
27-06-2015, 20:25
Wouldn't it make more sense to move Renegades to Codex: Space Marines?

Not really unless your going to allow space marines to be allies of convieniance with csm.and daemons.

Also give us our legion specific units back
So Iron Warriors would get better havocs and siege tyrant terminators etc

Mr Zoat
27-06-2015, 21:01
Not really unless your going to allow space marines to be allies of convieniance with csm.and daemons.
Why not? If you're playing renegades those are the sorts of people you will ally with. A simple rule such as Chapter Tactics: Renegades would do the job, and with detachments it isn't as if the allies table actually matters.

WarsmithGarathor94
27-06-2015, 21:14
Why not? If you're playing renegades those are the sorts of people you will ally with. A simple rule such as Chapter Tactics: Renegades would do the job, and with detachments it isn't as if the allies table actually matters.

The allies rules actually do but then again i rrarely bring allies

Poncho160
27-06-2015, 21:58
The Daemonkin Codex is missing quite a few units, there are no Veterans, Mutilators, Havocs, Obliterators, Vindicators or Predators, so there is still a place for the non-alligned Chaos Marines book.

Snake Tortoise
27-06-2015, 23:03
GW must know the appetite CSM players have for legion rules, which makes me think they will surely (if they have any sense at all) re-introduce them...

But then I think; if they got rid of those rules in the first place and didn't see fit to bring them back, why would they do it now? I try not to get my hopes up for GW to do what their player base wants because they so often let us down

WarsmithGarathor94
28-06-2015, 00:23
GW must know the appetite CSM players have for legion rules, which makes me think they will surely (if they have any sense at all) re-introduce them...

But then I think; if they got rid of those rules in the first place and didn't see fit to bring them back, why would they do it now? I try not to get my hopes up for GW to do what their player base wants because they so often let us down

Abd if they do for the love of jeebus give me siege tyrant terminators in 40k idc how op it would be 😂😂😂😂😂

Snake Tortoise
28-06-2015, 11:22
One minor point is I hope they increase the chaos dread's attacks in line with the space marine dread. Two attacks is pathetic, four makes it a bit more interesting. Maybe not competitive but it won't be quite so easy to tar pit

WangoFett
29-06-2015, 10:15
We will languish while other armies get their new superdexes. Then we will get rebooted end-times style erasing all fluff that we loved. Tzeentch and slaanesh get booted completely without trace. Chaos becomes angry choppy space barbarians riding dinobots.

Konovalev
30-06-2015, 05:39
Chaos becomes angry choppy space barbarians riding dinobots.

So basically Chaos raids the Dark Elf stables and we get this:216154

Scribe of Khorne
30-06-2015, 05:46
Renegades have simply no logical place in CSM.

Are you recently turned? If so, where the **** is all your Imperial Gear? You dont like Storm Shields? You dont like Drop Pods? Grav Cents got you down? Recently turned make no sense to be lumped into CHAOS Space Marines.

Are you long ago turned? M31? M32? Hell, M38? You are so corrupted, you are not Renegades anymore. You may wish you where not aligned to the Imperium, or Chaos proper, but guess what? You are. You are no longer Renegades. You are CHAOS Space Marines.

Remove Renegades from CSM. Remove the very mention, and focus on what Chaos Space Marines should be about, the returned Legions of old, come to destroy what they built.

shabbadoo
30-06-2015, 12:33
Renegades have simply no logical place in CSM.

Are you recently turned? If so, where the **** is all your Imperial Gear? You dont like Storm Shields? You dont like Drop Pods? Grav Cents got you down? Recently turned make no sense to be lumped into CHAOS Space Marines.

Are you long ago turned? M31? M32? Hell, M38? You are so corrupted, you are not Renegades anymore. You may wish you where not aligned to the Imperium, or Chaos proper, but guess what? You are. You are no longer Renegades. You are CHAOS Space Marines.

Remove Renegades from CSM. Remove the very mention, and focus on what Chaos Space Marines should be about, the returned Legions of old, come to destroy what they built.

Renegades don't just represent recently turned marines. They can be warbands of marines that have broken away from their parent legions and/or that have devolved from Legion practices altogether, or be a conglomeration of renegades from many Legions -even from long ago. Kinda like the Astral Claws, who will take anybody. A more generic "Chaos Renegades" faction should be able to be represented along side the Legions. I understand the "renegades" hate though. You go without Legion rules for multiple editions, and it leads to people getting rather pissed off any time the word "renegades" comes up. :p

InstantKarma
30-06-2015, 20:40
Renegades, renegades renegades!

Scribe of Khorne
02-07-2015, 00:38
If you turned, say yesterday. You dont just throw all your good gear away. If you turned any appreciable time in the past (100 years?) corruption will set in and you WILL be corrupted by Chaos. I look at the Red Corsairs in the Night Lord series, their ship was completely corrupted.

Renegades as a concept, simply dont work logically until we can buy loyalist gear, at a mark up.

Greavous
03-07-2015, 12:25
really i would expect a codex for each god with some special units and upgrades.
then 1 book for chaos undivided that can have basic daemons and the usual chaos stuff/stuff the specifics cant have.

for renegades they could either create a universal rule for every army to be 'corrupted' or a seperate supllement to allow for say IG and SM renegade armies to use the standard codex with extra rules and restrictions.

renegades dont have to be jsut chaos (as said before) they can jsut be worlds 'abandoned' by the imperium who have gone solo or SM chapters who have been called heretics but arnt (DOW2).

but i do think a suplement is the way forward rather than editing codicies

LegioDestructor
03-07-2015, 16:04
We don't need a book for each Traitor Legion, Renegade Chapter, or iconoclastic Imperial Guard regiment.

Traitor Legions are the main sticking point. I think the best compromise between making them unique but what's actually possible in one book is a combination of Cult Legions with their "may only take units with Mark of ___" stipulation [and let more units take Marks], and Chapter Traits for the BL, WB, NL, AL, and IW. I really think the Loyalist Traits are a great way to use the army's theme to define its composition. Make Chaos the evil mirror of the Loyalist Astartes that they truly are.

Chapters being abandoned/excommunicated by the Imperium comes down to politics, they would still use Codex: Space Marines. Loyalist rules + Chaos bitz = Renegade Marines. The tipping point is essentially how long ago have your Marines fallen? If it's "recent enough that they have Land Speeders", then use C:SM. If you want daemons and Helbrutes, then guess what! After that it's all aesthetics. Traitor guardsmen formations are dealt with by fixing the Allied Matrix so IG can ally with Chaos.

For the tough in-between stuff, simply bring back the rule from the 2nd Edition Codex that lets me buy Imperial vehicles and wargear/equipment at 150%. Even the World Eaters would've figured out how to build a Redeemer by now, and I want a Helios and Deredeo.

*Edit: And of course, to have a "Chaos Undivided" army there would be an option to take no Trait, and just pick and choose what you wanted. There just wouldn't be an army-wide buff, like a mini-Unbound army.

Herkamer63
03-07-2015, 16:55
If you turned, say yesterday. You dont just throw all your good gear away. If you turned any appreciable time in the past (100 years?) corruption will set in and you WILL be corrupted by Chaos. I look at the Red Corsairs in the Night Lord series, their ship was completely corrupted.

Renegades as a concept, simply dont work logically until we can buy loyalist gear, at a mark up.
I've always wondered what it would be like if you go the way of Chaos in the 40k universe. Maybe there's a check-in station inside the Warp and a few security officers going through your stuff.
"Ok, it looks like everything's in order so go ahead and...wait a moment. What's that on your hand?"
"Nothing"
"Really? Looks to me you have some heavy blunt electrical object. Been doing some 'Hulk Smash' with it?"
"Well I thought with a thunder hammer, I could really shed more blood for the blood god."
"3 things: 1st, no thunder hammers or any other beneficial pieces of wargear that came with you from your local SM planet. 2nd, hammers smash, and we prefer to cut. And 3rdly, you don't even know who the blood god is, do you?"
"Miley Cyrus?"
"...leave your stuff here and go in. One last thing: Kharn is "The Clumsy" not "The Betrayer". We have no idea where others are coming to the conclusion that he betrays people."

WarsmithGarathor94
03-07-2015, 17:25
Having finally got a copy.of khorne daemonkin.i must say from the skim through ive had rules wise i like it. Personally id like for the daemonkin.books to cover the mono god forces and then for the main book to deal with undivided/ multi god forces

Okuto
04-07-2015, 04:44
My kingdom for legions.......

At this point I'll take whatever......anything's gotta be better than what we currently have

shin'keiro
05-07-2015, 23:32
I'd like to see it as a Space Marines dex but for the five chaos versions (includes undivided as warbands\pirates\marauders etc) with NO daemons in it at all. Leave the daemons for daemonkin codices.

Scribe of Khorne
06-07-2015, 01:50
I just cant see it without Daemons. Your looking at 4th Ed then, and thats the worst book we have ever had.

Okuto
06-07-2015, 05:00
I just cant see it without Daemons. Your looking at 4th Ed then, and thats the worst book we have ever had.

Don't ever mention that....thing:shifty:

3.5 is rather tame in comparison to the current generation of codexes.....really I'd just take that with some khorne flakes on top, add in formations, make possessed stupidly good so we'll buy them, cut out the cancer that is renegades and make them a dataslate, etc etc

hazmiter
06-07-2015, 05:09
Okuto, i wouldn't dismiss 3.5 so quickly. It gets rather nasty when you couple it with the current ruleset.
Ive been fooling about with lists and stuff, and if you use the current psychic powers rules (choose from rule book), the tzeentch chosen champions get rather broken, rather quickly. Expensive, but stupid broken..... Auto casting powers........
The additional fun of being able to uber up nurgle marines, or even have a s5, t5, fnp khorne aspiring champion is rather amusing :D

Okuto
06-07-2015, 05:40
Okuto, i wouldn't dismiss 3.5 so quickly. It gets rather nasty when you couple it with the current ruleset.
Ive been fooling about with lists and stuff, and if you use the current psychic powers rules (choose from rule book), the tzeentch chosen champions get rather broken, rather quickly. Expensive, but stupid broken..... Auto casting powers........
The additional fun of being able to uber up nurgle marines, or even have a s5, t5, fnp khorne aspiring champion is rather amusing :D

Well I wouldn't expect everything to come back:p

I certainly wouldn't expect the buffet menu our chaos lords had back then:D

But man I can wish.....if there was anything I could have back it was that buffet menu of goodies, some generous helpings of daemonic gifts, some wargear sides and a dash of veteran skills and a pinch of gifts from the gods

Sigh.......

hazmiter
06-07-2015, 10:03
Well I wouldn't expect everything to come back:p

I certainly wouldn't expect the buffet menu our chaos lords had back then:D

But man I can wish.....if there was anything I could have back it was that buffet menu of goodies, some generous helpings of daemonic gifts, some wargear sides and a dash of veteran skills and a pinch of gifts from the gods

Sigh.......

Oh yes we had quite the buffet in that one.
I'll take some daemonic strength, essence and resilience, with some stature for the monster mash requirement, oh and ill certainly take some combat drugs because im slaanesh, and maybe ill nick some daemonic visage because i like scaring people.
They had it good for customisation back then.
Sure the list was pretty small, but it was awesome, you know, possessed that were useful :D
Oh and feel no pain for khorne champs :D

Hell's Angel
07-07-2015, 04:20
One minor point is I hope they increase the chaos dread's attacks in line with the space marine dread. Two attacks is pathetic, four makes it a bit more interesting. Maybe not competitive but it won't be quite so easy to tar pit

Hellbrutes are garbage. I have 2 Decimator Daemon Engines, and a Chaos Contemptor (Nurgle Marked). The Contemptor has 2 butcher cannons, and the Decimators are 2 Butcher Cannons and 2 Soulburner Petards. The Decimator Engines are still STR 8 with no Close combat weapon, and although the Contemptor is only str 7 it still has 3 attacks with no CC weapon. Yeah each is around 250 points each, but with AR 13 in the front and with various invul saves and IT WILL NOT DIE (not to mention the Daemon Engines coming back from the dead) Each is more durable than a landraider with equal amounts of firepower.

totgeboren
07-07-2015, 04:57
Hellbrutes are garbage. I have 2 Decimator Daemon Engines, and a Chaos Contemptor (Nurgle Marked). The Contemptor has 2 butcher cannons, and the Decimators are 2 Butcher Cannons and 2 Soulburner Petards. The Decimator Engines are still STR 8 with no Close combat weapon, and although the Contemptor is only str 7 it still has 3 attacks with no CC weapon. Yeah each is around 250 points each, but with AR 13 in the front and with various invul saves and IT WILL NOT DIE (not to mention the Daemon Engines coming back from the dead) Each is more durable than a landraider with equal amounts of firepower.

Slightly off-topic, but why would you ever go with two Soulburner petards on a Decimator? They are ordinance blast weapons so you only get to fire one anyway, which I assumed you missed?
But to me that is systemic of especially FW CSM options. Find something useful and bam there is always something making it crap, be it drop pods who eat your own models and mishap, ordnance on the a weapon that would be kinda good in a dual setup, or stuff simply being waaay to costly for what you get.

Hell's Angel
07-07-2015, 05:04
They are the same type weapon so you fire them both at the same time. "completely resolve all attacks from the same weapons at the same time..." (Also the Decimator is a vehicle, so it is not restricted to only shooting one weapon per the ordinance rules on page 425.)

Dr.Clock
07-07-2015, 05:24
If GW is clever, they'll release 'Daemonkin' type books for the 4 powers, and finish with a CSM codex including Legion Tactics for the remaining non-aligned Legions. Renegades etc. are pretty much guaranteed to fall into the category of proxied recent Renegades from C:SM, or the general rubric of the non-aligned Legions. This means a wait of or possibly 2 for whomever falls at the end of such a release schedule... as I think at this point it's almost vital that Cult Marines should at best be severely limited in a decently balanced C:CSM... again, mostly IMO.

Cheers,

The Good Doctor.

totgeboren
07-07-2015, 10:02
They are the same type weapon so you fire them both at the same time. "completely resolve all attacks from the same weapons at the same time..." (Also the Decimator is a vehicle, so it is not restricted to only shooting one weapon per the ordinance rules on page 425.)

Cool! I never saw they changed that from 6ed to 7ed. My Leman Russes for my traitor guard suddenly became slightly better, not to mention the Defiler! :)