PDA

View Full Version : Deathfire



Nazguire
29-06-2015, 04:26
Anyone got hold of this or is this a complete fizzer of a release like I thought it'd be?

cswang
29-06-2015, 06:08
After my previous experiences, I'm letting somebody else sample the razor cake first this time.

DarkChaplain
29-06-2015, 09:21
I'm done with the first six chapters, and enjoying it so far. From having glanced at the later parts of the book, there seems to be a lot going on.

The Afterword specifically says that this is part two of the Salamanders trilogy Kyme planned out for the HH. Vulkan Lives is part one, The Unremembered Empire the bridge between first and second, and this one is the odyssey back to Nocturne. So don't expect all threads to be resolved and, actually, more questions to pop up throughout.

Some general info from the first few chapters:

Numeon from Vulkan Lives is alive. He was captured by the Word Bearers, as one could have expected. They kept him alive, though not without torture. They had dozens of Shattered Legion dudes, too. Numeon is the only one to really hang on to his life, though.
The Word Bearers are in Ultramar, and a team of "Red-marked", led by Aeonid Thiel are attracted by the Sigil Numeon was carrying, and perform a boarding mission. They rescue Numeon, and mercy-kill the only remaining captives, who wouldn't have made it either way. The Word Bearer guy who tortured Numeon (to find out where the Fulgurite Spear is now) basically abandoned the ship, and was taken captive by Thiel and co.

Meanwhile, on Macragge, there are two Salamanders standing vigil in front of the Unbound Flame sarcophagus Vulkan rests in. One thinks he heard a heartbeat, which was hinted at in The Unremembered Empire too. Vulkan is unlikely to be done for, after TUE anyway - but nobody has been able to remove the spear from his chest.

Definitely encouraging you to read/listen to Censure and Stratagem, both by Kyme, both about Aenoid Thiel and the origins of the Red-marked. There's also another audio coming, titled "Red-marked", so there's that.
Numeon does not know yet that Vulkan was killed, as per chapter 6. Thiel does, though.

Bigger spoiler from flipping through:

Just in passing I noticed that Magnus is pulling some strings re: Numeon's rescue and Vulkan being ferried across the galaxy. That might explain their somewhat successful travel through the Ruinstorm.

Doesn't appear to be anything like a "fizzer release" so far.

littleRaven
29-06-2015, 13:22
Sounds like Magnus might be playing both sides?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

7788
29-06-2015, 13:50
Related, Artefacts by Kyme is also on sale today. As of now, BL does not mention it was originally in HH Weekender 2014 Sedition's Gate anthology

DarkChaplain
29-06-2015, 15:34
Artefacts was actually pretty interesting. It adds a piece that I thought was missing from the whole "Curze turned batcrap insane" arc.

nagash66
29-06-2015, 15:38
1/3 into the book and it is 'ok', not bad but not by any means good. It has failed to engage me, the characters are flat, the events feel like a third party recounting a dinner party. And the primarch appearances so far have been flat and wasted as oppurtunities.

That said it is not bad, it had not made me want to put it aside and forget about it, but neither has it made me want to know more about the salamanders, or be put in any hurry to keep reading. And to me that is the ultimate sigh of a good book, the feeling of not wanting to put it down, rather then 'oh i will pop for a snack and a quick pc game and then come back to it tomorrow'.

fluxdeluxe
29-06-2015, 20:26
1/3 into the book and it is 'ok', not bad but not by any means good. It has failed to engage me, the characters are flat, the events feel like a third party recounting a dinner party. And the primarch appearances so far have been flat and wasted as oppurtunities.

That said it is not bad, it had not made me want to put it aside and forget about it, but neither has it made me want to know more about the salamanders, or be put in any hurry to keep reading. And to me that is the ultimate sigh of a good book, the feeling of not wanting to put it down, rather then 'oh i will pop for a snack and a quick pc game and then come back to it tomorrow'.

Im further through this book than anything written by Kyme in the past. I think it's thoughtful and well written it benefits hugely from picking up directly from unremembered empire and it's interesting to read about various characters misgivings on the situation in ultramar. I'm not sure if it's because my expectations were so low but I've had a real desire for something real to get my teeth into concerning the heresy arc and so far it has delivered. This is coming from someone who read 2 chapters of Vulcan lives before having to put it down.


Its not ADB or Abnett nor should it be every writer is unique but I'm enjoying it it's not just another filler, even from what I've gleaned so far I feel there is some real substance.

Anakwanar
29-06-2015, 21:31
Deathfire review - 600 pages of repetitive bolter porn with Marie Sue black skin SM, stupid SM Pyreguard captain, and fraze that will haunt your nightmares for decades 'Vulkan ......es!'
P.S. Zero impact on the general storyline

fluxdeluxe
29-06-2015, 22:19
Deathfire review - 600 pages of repetitive bolter porn with Marie Sue black skin SM, stupid SM Pyreguard captain, and fraze that will haunt your nightmares for decades 'Vulkan ......es!'
P.S. Zero impact on the general storyline

That's bizarre I'm a quarter of the way through the book and there's been 2 fights. Unless it's pure fighting from now on I wouldn't say it was Bolter porn ?

DarkChaplain
30-06-2015, 02:47
That's bizarre I'm a quarter of the way through the book and there's been 2 fights. Unless it's pure fighting from now on I wouldn't say it was Bolter porn ?

This. There's massively more reflection on events and Vulkan than there is bolter porn, or even action. So far (for me, 20% through) there has been one boarding assault with bolters, and that's it. Far less than most HH novels, and it doesn't seem to be changing anytime soon, considering how the story is rolling.

Scribe of Khorne
30-06-2015, 04:38
Are we moving the story at all, or is this just more non-effectual naval gazing by a shattered legion?

DarkChaplain
30-06-2015, 05:14
The story is being moved in various ways, while others are staying where we knew them to be. Just because a few factions do the same things as before, that doesn't mean that the story isn't moving forward. Things shift ever so slightly to various breaking points.

Fact is, this one plays after The Unremembered Empire, which was, so far, the most recent novel in the timeline (Vengeful Spirit could, at best, end up parallel to it). Tensions between the three Primarchs of Imperium Secundus are growing, Curze is still unaccounted for, and Vulkan is/might not be dead just yet. Thiel and co are making progress against the Word Bearers and trying to pry more secrets from captives.
A certain other Primarch gets involved, too.

Does it bring the Heresy to Terra? No. Does it tackle a big event we already knew of from the old fluff? No. Does that mean the storyline remains in the same spot? Hell no.

Spellfire
30-06-2015, 08:38
About half way through and so far it seems like Deathfire is more of the same mundane HH that I've come to expect - time was I couldn't wait to pick up a HH book after a day's work and continue reading. Now, it seems like a slight chore - DF simply hasn't gripped me; I'm already itching to get through this and to the next Expanse novel or Demon Cycle book. And I wouldn't necessarily say the story is moving forward (bearing in mind I have a little under half to go), but more sideways. Not necessarily a bad thing if the story was engaging...

And something that is really starting to grip my poo with BL books. Overuse of obscure or otherwise over-flowery language. It was evident in the last Yarrick book and it's evident in this: sentences that seem too long for no purpose, adjectives that seem to have been plucked from "right click > synonyms" and more. It's unnecessary and breaks the flow of the narrative without adding to any worldbuilding. When was the last time (spoiler) that someone being chopped in two was described as "sinister and dexter". It gives the impression of trying to hide actual literary skill, although this may be a BL editorial thing. Just a personal peeve.

DarkChaplain
30-06-2015, 09:01
Well, the whole HH fatigue thing is pretty normal at this point for most readers. We're over 30 books in by now, and the big events that we knew about from old lore are pretty much covered, minus Terra and a small scale engagement or two. Before we had big events to look forward to (Calth, Signus, Prospero), whereas now we only have Terra, the rest is unknown.

And since Terra is not coming yet, everything else seems by default less significant than the stuff we would have anticipated before. Expectations are lower and, since we cannot immediately connect hints and pieces being laid out (like the daemon in The Damnation of Pythos or Tuchulcha or the Pharos), we tend to consider them irrelevant to the Heresy as a whole. Whether they will be more relevant in the future (like Tuchulcha has just become via the Legacy of Caliban trilogy, which also ties back into the Heresy, or the Damnation Cache on Pythos, or the Tyranid invasion re: Pharos) doesn't seem to matter anymore. Where books could more easily set the stage and set up plotlines before, now most people seem to expect instant gratification and big revelations with every new entry.

Vulkan Lives and Deathfire specifically shouldn't be taken on their own when it comes to judging their relevance to the series as a whole. They are two thirds of a longer spanning and planned out story arc about the Salamanders. Imperium Secundus is a longer arc with lots of fragmented stories (that will undoubtedly be collected in a mainline entry) that seems to work as a hub for various plotlines while also setting up developments for the future of the setting.

Think back to Horus Rising and realize that, more than anything, it set the stage for things to come in False Gods and Galaxy in Flames. It was excellent, but it was clearly planned as part of a trilogy. Know No Fear was obviously planned with Mark of Calth and various short stories outside it in mind. Legion was a stepping stone for a whole host of Alpha Legion shenanigans, too.
Should every book be enjoyable on its own? Yes, certainly. But judging its value within the series without the full context doesn't make that much sense.

And let's be realistic. It has been almost 10 years since the series started. If you have stuck with the series til book 32, even accounting for skipping a few and not touching audio dramas, eshorts or novellas, it is only natural that you won't be as excited anymore as at the start. A lot of things are played out for us, and we are pretty much desensitizes to a bunch of themes, like daemons, bolter porn and Primarchs being amazing.

And considering Kyme's Afterword in Deathfire, it seems like we are finally entering the final stage of the Horus Heresy, and will be seeing more closely knit novels in the future, like in the early days. A lot of flags are being set for Terra, with many more to come.

cswang
30-06-2015, 11:54
When was the last time (spoiler) that someone being chopped in two was described as "sinister and dexter".

Does that seriously happen?

reds8n
30-06-2015, 13:26
Well I'll look forwards to reading it in 9 months or so.

I've attached a picture, which one gathers is from Deathfire

http://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/blog/blog.jsp



it’s hard to believe that the Horus Heresy series has been around almost ten years. And shows no signs of slowing down with the thirty-second book in the series, Deathfire, available to pre-order now.

....Deathfire may be the thirty-second novel in the Horus Heresy series, but it is just one of over 100 (112 to be precise) Horus Heresy stories available from the Black Library website, which include audio dramas such as the Garro series…
novellas, short stories, eBooks and anthologies. Black Library have even put them in chronological order so you can follow the events of the Horus Heresy in the order they happened (Warp vagaries permitting, of course). You can even get hold of exclusive wallpapers, posters and art prints, like this one featuring Iacton Qruze as he infiltrates the Dark Angels fortress-monastery.

Over 100 tales, and about 10 years of publication.

... lucky GRR Martin isn't writing for them eh ?

Spellfire
30-06-2015, 13:42
Snip

I don't necessarily disagree with anything you've said but equally I don't think I'm being unrealistic in my expectations from a book costing £25 - it should be able to stand on it's own merits and not rely on being judged as part of a "wider picture" - that should only add to it. Take Legion for example - I thought it was excellent. It added to the HH worldbuilding (the turn of the Alpha Legion), introduced a new element (the Cabal) and on it's own, was a thoroughly good read (imo). It just seems the last clutch of HH books are written without ambition, but simply to fulfill contractual obligations.


Does that seriously happen?

Yes. It was almost cringe-worthy.

MiyamatoMusashi
30-06-2015, 14:40
Well, the whole HH fatigue thing is pretty normal at this point for most readers. We're over 30 books in by now, and the big events that we knew about from old lore are pretty much covered, minus Terra and a small scale engagement or two. Before we had big events to look forward to (Calth, Signus, Prospero), whereas now we only have Terra, the rest is unknown.

And since Terra is not coming yet, everything else seems by default less significant than the stuff we would have anticipated before.

Fair point, very well made.

OTOH, the novels still cost as much as they ever did, they're being released less frequently (in contrast to the bewildering and overwhelming release rate for novellas, short, micro-shorts and audio books), and there's a lot more guff from talentless hacks like Nick Kyme. It's true that Prospero was something we were all looking forward to for years - but the Imperial Secundus arc could have been an incredible revelation of a heresy-that-wasn't-quite-heresy that revitalised the entire series; nobody really seems to consider it in those terms, though, do they? Is that because they're jaded, or is it simply underwhelming?

If the books were really consistently good, I think people would overcome their fatigue. But take a look at the most recent "numbered" releases, in reverse order: Legacies of Betrayal, a collection of reprinted shorts. Damnation of Pythos, absolute cobblers. Vengeful Spirit, some good bits with House Devine, but the infiltration storyline was appalling. Scars, basically forgettable. The Unremembered Empire, that barely actually featured the unremembered empire until the last page. Vulkan Lives, painfully bad. Mark of Calth, some of which was actually rather good, but some of which was just abject. You have to go all the way back to Betrayer in early 2013 to find a book that I personally rate genuinely positively (YMMV of course) - and right before that was Angel Exterminatus, which IMO is one of the worst books in the series.

You are absolutely right in what you say, but if the novels were top quality, it wouldn't much matter. Clearly quality is subjective (you or others may not agree with my views given above) but something captured the collective imagination early in the series, and it doesn't seem to be doing it any more.

DarkChaplain
30-06-2015, 16:11
I don't really agree with Kyme being simply a "talentless hack". He's certainly not part of the top tier authors, but then, he's not writing full time like the bulk of them. His first novels for Black Library were definitely written from the point of a relative amateur who, up to that point, really only edited books. He might have known the pieces, but the execution was lacking, even though his ideas weren't bad.

But I'd freely admit that Kyme has improved noticeably since then. I'm now a third through Deathfire, for example, and enjoying the whole Odyssey theme and parallels up to this point. He doesn't spend overly much time on battle scenes and a lot on dialogue, which is no more or less clumsy than in the many books set in the series written by Swallow, McNeill or even Abnett. It can't measure up to their best, but it doesn't have to. It does pretty well at being a journey of grief for the Salamanders, and as the afterword makes clear, Kyme made the "stages of grief" a main theme from the start, deliberately so. For me, it works.

As for Imperium Secundus... Well, I was pretty damn excited about the idea when it was first mentioned in Age of Darkness - book 16, 11 books before The Unremembered Empire made it a thing, by which point I had stopped caring much about it.
And it didn't help that Abnett's novel felt extremely flat for me, with its excessive Primarch-on-Primarch smackdown, Curze being the Batman on steroids and Vulkan breaking with his character entirely due to "insanity" (did it really have to be that, even? Vulkan might just as well have been crash-landing while Curze was rampaging and gotten into a fight with Curze then, rather than having him do what he did in TUE. Keep Vulkan sane, it changes very little about the outcome).

TUE was a mess, and seeing that the Imperium Secundus part happened on the last pages, with Sanguinius barely having a speaking role in the book, despite being prominently featured on the cover, I am not surprised that the whole story arc didn't blow up in a big way. The lack of timely support through other books, shorts or audios (which took years to arrive) only made it less of a main event.
I mean, after TUE, we went back years in the Heresy to watch the White Scars in a far superior novel than TUE was, followed by Horus powering up on Chaos, and following that a sideline novel about the Shattered Legions and a collection of 100% old short stories, audios-in-prose and a novella prequel to Scars.

Imperium Secundus really hasn't done much for us yet. It doesn't help that the, in my opinion, best short story tying into that arc, The Laurel of Defiance, hasn't been published outside of a limited event anthology...

Other than that, I agree (though not on the novel ratings, I quite liked some of them for the themes they played out and gaps they filled).

One of my biggest bug-bears with recent Heresy novels is the Perpetuals plotline. John Grammaticus I could stomach as an oddity, a unique dude who met the Emperor, who noticed they were similar in that particular gift. But even then, Legion introduced John as a relatively normal dude who was brought back in a plot of the Cabal, despite his own will on various points. While reincarnation was a thing for him from the start, it wasn't precisely spelled out that he is a Perpetual, from what I remember, and it was implied heavily that the Cabal were the puppetmasters behind it.

And then we got Oll. And Damon Prytanis. And Alivia Sureka. And possibly now Cyrene Valantion too. And Vulkan.
I somewhat liked Oll, but Abnett put too much of the real world history in him for me to not cringe. His "Okay" breaks it for me, in a way.
Damon was comple and utterly forgettable. I only remember him as being the dickbag who picked up Cyrene and went to hunt Vulkan while acting like a dickbag, and also had too much real world in him.
Alivia was enjoyable in Wolf Mother, but again, I'm not sure about the real world fairytales in her arc.

There's been a sudden influx of Perpetual action over the last dozen or so novels, starting from Know No Fear. I'm not a fan of that. Vulkan I can accept, as he is the son of the mightiest perpetual around, and all of the Primarchs share a bit of the Emperor. But having so many others around diminishes his uniqueness quite a bit.
And I'm certainly not a fan of the flip-flopping on Vulkan being dead or alive. He's Schrödinger's Primarch.

Graeme
30-06-2015, 16:28
We're over 30 books in by now, and the big events that we knew about from old lore are pretty much covered, minus Terra and a small scale engagement or two. Before we had big events to look forward to (Calth, Signus, Prospero), whereas now we only have Terra, the rest is unknown.
And since Terra is not coming yet, everything else seems by default less significant than the stuff we would have anticipated before.


I'd take issue with this a little bit. I didn't approach the heresy as a checklist of things I knew about and wanted to have retold (as you say, Istvaan > Prospero > Calth > Terra) - I'm more than happy to read things that are new. Some of my favourite books in the series have had nothing to do with any of that stuff, in fact - off the top of my head, Betrayer, First Heretic, Legion, Nemesis, Mechanicum... even Scars was alright, I thought. I'm not frustrated that we aren't 'skipping to the end', I'm frustrated that the books being written aren't dealing with anything of galactic relevance or import. It's a cop out to say "Oh, this is setting up for something bigger" - we're all busy people and this is an EPIC GALACTIC SPACE OPERA - just show me the big thing! The damn series began with the fall of Horus and his Wolves in the first book and a half - the most pivotal event of the lot, and they didn't feel the need to "set up" to that.

Endless books of shattered legion messing about at the edges are what's annoying me. The focus should, IMHO, be on the key players and what they're up to - the traitors and the full-strength loyalists. What are the Dark Angels up to? The Night Lords? The Iron Warriors? The Blood Angels? Not as bit-players and asides as and when they cross the paths of some pointless side story but as part of a coherent 'history' of the heresy.

EDITED TO ADD - cross posted with Dark Chaplain. Just wanted to add that I agree a lot with some of his last post. Especially the prepetuals side story. That stuff is terribad.

Norrin
30-06-2015, 16:39
I don't suffer from HH fatigue. I'm still looking forward to each book. We all know how the whole thing is going to end. And we know the big events. Before the HH series started we had no clue about the shattered Legions and I love the fact we get an insight now. For me it's still an exciting journey with new things popping up that we didn't know anything about until now. To me the journey to Terra is more exciting than the battle of Terra simply because I know how it's going to end. I enjoy the new stuff because it surprises me.

I'm very much looking forward to "Deathfire" because I enjoyed Nick's Tome of Fire trilogy quite a lot.

nagash66
30-06-2015, 18:10
Ok having finished the book ( spoilers ahead) i have gone from 'ok' to 'bad', and for anyone who cares let me tell you why:

The author disregards 30k-40k core backround as whim, now in small scale and for a clear purpose i am willing to kinda let it slide but this is not the case.

1) The ruinstorm, it was a creation meant to trap the Ultramarines and their empire of 500 worlds and was built AROUND those worlds. So why do the Salamanders having reached Terra and wanting to go back to their homeworld which lies half way between the two need to re enter it? Other then the author wanting to add tension it makes no sense, and to add insult to injury was not needed as they could have had a dangerous journey due to the status of the ship and its navigator and their enemies had a way of tracking them anyhow.

2) Nocturne, is a legion homeworld, yet it lacks even the most rudimentary of orbital defenses ( and when i say rudementary a single already crippled capital obtains orbital superiority and bombards the planet at will. Furthermore not a single space station, system defence ship or legion ship challenges the protaginist or antagonists vehicles on their arrival, not even the fortress monastery on vox.

3) Numbers, this is a constant gripe with BL but once again they ruin it for me. I will skip the red shirt death guard dying in droves early in the book for not a single salamander casualty ( something to the tune of 20-30 to none) and move to the core part of the this complaint. The death-guard have a single capital ship, which after sending and losing enough boarders to ensure capture of the Salamander capital ship ( so a minimum of lets say 30-50 marines as i will include word bearer allies even tho we are told only a single of 8 boarding torpedoes contains them). It then lands enough marines to make a assault on a dug in force of 800 salamanders a realistic probability, additionally the salamanders estimate they are outnumbered to some degree.

Look i know the want to make it interesting and add tension but a single capital ship ( i would include glorianna class in this) carriyng over 1000 marines as crew is a no no. Even in the heresy the ship design and tactics simply did not work that way. We have other heresy books which confirm this, strike cruisers= about 100 marines, or they get cramped ( see Meduson) Battle Barges =200-400. Glorianna class can hit the 1000 mark. But thats it. Worse still we are told word of god this is a cast away force of Death Guard that are discarded by their primarch. Again BL please remember your own fluff. A force of over 1000 marines post Istavaan is not disregarded by anyone. Let alone by a legion which has suffered large casualties. It is a system shattering army of conquest, not a forgotten band of raiders .

5) Stupid, so much stupid. The death guard proceed to unleash the life eater on Nocturne, but dont worry guys the salamanders use giant flamers to burn it out of the air before it can kill them! This is a result of letting your own writing having a capital ship of a legion famous for using chemical and proscribed weapons take orbit over something that they should never be allowed to take orbit over. Stupid used to combat stupid.


This book is a time killer, by the company, by the author by its own story. It should not have passed the story board phase and i am saddened not by its quality but by its potential. Because a well written story about a group of Salamanders clinging on to their last dregs of hope as they complete a Odyssey back to their homeworld could have been awesome. Nick Kyme has once again to me at least show his complete mediocrity, a word which should never been associated with the HH.

DarkChaplain
30-06-2015, 18:50
I'm not through yet (currently at chapter 20 of 67), but I'll try tackling some of the above points:

1) Why the Salamanders wanted to go back to Nocturne? To bury Vulkan. That's the whole bloody point of the book - taking their dead father back to his home, to follow tradition. If they wanted to simply be at an important holdout of the Loyalists, they might've just stayed on Macragge. Their priority, and pretty much the only thing they care about for the most part, is bringing their father home. That's why they wouldn't stick on either planet.
Besides, the Salamanders are hardly the only group braving the Ruinstorm. The Imperial Fists did it too, as did various White Scars and Iron Hands. Nevermind that it is also implied that Magnus has a hand in guiding them, too.

The tracking part: Their enemies are Word Bearers. We knew for a while that they have barely any trouble navigating the Ruinstorm or keeping track of their enemies. Even Scars had the bound daemon bits with their ships in it. Them being able to track the Salamanders (especially considering that the Sigil might be broadcasting their signal far and wide, and considering it is Vulkan's handiwork, it might be able to brave the storm just fine) doesn't seem like an actual contradiction.

2) Nocturne has also been left behind by the Salamanders when they went to Isstvan. Considering they are quite literally a Shattered Legion, I'm not surprised their home world is badly defended. In 40k, they do have a big orbital defense thingy, but that's one of the Nine Artefacts of Vulkan, which might have been taken care of by the first Forgefather (see: Artefacts, the short story).
Even in 40k Nocturne is attacked (see: Tome of Fire trilogy). If anything, Kyme is consistent with his own work, which was more or less consistent with previous lore and fleshed the Salamanders and their culture out rather nicely.

3 & 4) I'm currently at the chapter with the Death Guard, and unless I'm missing something big, the Death Guard have a simple (Strike) Cruiser, albeit with more landing craft and probably crew than the Salamanders do. The only mention of a Gloriana Class ship is that the wreck the Salamanders passed through before sighting the Death Guard was bigge than a Gloriana. It is also bearing Word Bearer colors and insignia. This would mean that it is either the Furious Abyss or one of the other two Abyss class ships Lorgar commissioned and were present at Armatura.
So if we go by 40k Strike Cruiser crews, we'd be at around 100. Likewise, the Monarchia is also a Cruiser.
Not that awful odds for 66 Salamanders, even though a complete lack of casualties would be ridiculously unlikely (though I have yet to confirm that as a fact myself).

5) Flipping forward to the bombardment, I actually think that burning the virus bombs after seeing that Nocturne's atmosphere and environment limit its spread significantly was a fitting idea. The Life-eater is biological material itself, and that can burn and evaporate. It doesn't seem too absurd to me, considering the context of what is happening, and it fits the Salamanders quite well. Besides, it doesn't seem like the Death Guard tried to eliminate them just through the bombing. I see it more as trying to demoralize and soften the Sallies up before the main assault, close and personal.
And let's not forget that even in Galaxy in Flames, the loyalists had a good amount of time to get into cover upon realizing what had been unleashed upon them. They just didn't benefit from the hostile, volcanic atmosphere of Nocturne, nor did they have giant flamers stationed all over to wipe it out before it could take hold.

reds8n
30-06-2015, 18:50
..point 2 there seems very strange indeed...

in fact isn't this somewhat contradicted by "Artifacts " ... or am I getting muddled up ?

Lord Damocles
30-06-2015, 18:50
The death guard proceed to unleash the life eater on Nocturne, but dont worry guys the salamanders use giant flamers to burn it out of the air before it can kill them!
The... erm... um...
Huh.

DarkChaplain
30-06-2015, 19:07
..point 2 there seems very strange indeed...

in fact isn't this somewhat contradicted by "Artifacts " ... or am I getting muddled up ?

I don't think we ever actually learned about Nocturne's defences. We do know that T'kell was in charge of the Artifacts, but we also know that the Orbital stuff that he picked as one of the seven he was allowed to keep (and hide) were only reclaimed and placed over Prometheus close to the present 40k timeline.
So we know that the artifact exists, but don't know if it was actually in use by that point, or just hidden away.

nagash66
30-06-2015, 19:43
I'm not through yet (currently at chapter 20 of 67), but I'll try tackling some of the above points:

1) Why the Salamanders wanted to go back to Nocturne? To bury Vulkan. That's the whole bloody point of the book - taking their dead father back to his home, to follow tradition. If they wanted to simply be at an important holdout of the Loyalists, they might've just stayed on Macragge. Their priority, and pretty much the only thing they care about for the most part, is bringing their father home. That's why they wouldn't stick on either planet.
Besides, the Salamanders are hardly the only group braving the Ruinstorm. The Imperial Fists did it too, as did various White Scars and Iron Hands. Nevermind that it is also implied that Magnus has a hand in guiding them, too.

The tracking part: Their enemies are Word Bearers. We knew for a while that they have barely any trouble navigating the Ruinstorm or keeping track of their enemies. Even Scars had the bound daemon bits with their ships in it. Them being able to track the Salamanders (especially considering that the Sigil might be broadcasting their signal far and wide, and considering it is Vulkan's handiwork, it might be able to brave the storm just fine) doesn't seem like an actual contradiction.

2) Nocturne has also been left behind by the Salamanders when they went to Isstvan. Considering they are quite literally a Shattered Legion, I'm not surprised their home world is badly defended. In 40k, they do have a big orbital defense thingy, but that's one of the Nine Artefacts of Vulkan, which might have been taken care of by the first Forgefather (see: Artefacts, the short story).
Even in 40k Nocturne is attacked (see: Tome of Fire trilogy). If anything, Kyme is consistent with his own work, which was more or less consistent with previous lore and fleshed the Salamanders and their culture out rather nicely.

3 & 4) I'm currently at the chapter with the Death Guard, and unless I'm missing something big, the Death Guard have a simple (Strike) Cruiser, albeit with more landing craft and probably crew than the Salamanders do. The only mention of a Gloriana Class ship is that the wreck the Salamanders passed through before sighting the Death Guard was bigge than a Gloriana. It is also bearing Word Bearer colors and insignia. This would mean that it is either the Furious Abyss or one of the other two Abyss class ships Lorgar commissioned and were present at Armatura.
So if we go by 40k Strike Cruiser crews, we'd be at around 100. Likewise, the Monarchia is also a Cruiser.
Not that awful odds for 66 Salamanders, even though a complete lack of casualties would be ridiculously unlikely (though I have yet to confirm that as a fact myself).

5) Flipping forward to the bombardment, I actually think that burning the virus bombs after seeing that Nocturne's atmosphere and environment limit its spread significantly was a fitting idea. The Life-eater is biological material itself, and that can burn and evaporate. It doesn't seem too absurd to me, considering the context of what is happening, and it fits the Salamanders quite well. Besides, it doesn't seem like the Death Guard tried to eliminate them just through the bombing. I see it more as trying to demoralize and soften the Sallies up before the main assault, close and personal.
And let's not forget that even in Galaxy in Flames, the loyalists had a good amount of time to get into cover upon realizing what had been unleashed upon them. They just didn't benefit from the hostile, volcanic atmosphere of Nocturne, nor did they have giant flamers stationed all over to wipe it out before it could take hold.

Dark Chaplain i feel like you misunderstanding my points.

1) Is the fact that the ruinstorm is NOT imperium wide, it is surounding the 500 worlds. The warp is in turmoil and hard to travel yes, but the event know as the ruinstorm is specific and tied to a certain area of space. Hence why i have issue with them re entering it at any point post 500 worlds, they even refer to it as a sheet separating the 500 worlds with the rest of the imperium in the book.

Hence my issue is not with that act of braving it, is the need to brave something that we know is no where near there for no possible reason as their destination again lies no where near it.

2) Being shattered and having gone to Istavaan has nothing to do with planetary defences, we have seen legion home worlds we know that legions had standing forces and defences there post, during and pre heresy. Be it the forces left behind by corax, the prospero defence grid or the BA garrison left on Baal etc. Even if we assume that the Salamanders left only 1 Marine back home ( crazy at that would be even for recruitment and training purposes), where are the thousands of serfs manning the weapon platforms, where are the system defense ships and stations, where is the vox contact and challenge? Unless you want me to believe that the salamanders never had any of that in which case i am sorry but that would make it part of (5) stupid .

3 & 4) the death guard ship is a vengeance class, it is mentioned in the book, it is a capital ship and not a cruiser like you correctly state the monarchia is. And again once you reach the end of the novel ( if you think i am lying) you will be faced with that fact that the ship carried in access of a thousand marines. A fact that i am not sure you can argue around as being simply bad storytelling. I only mention the glorianna as a example of a ship that might actually be expected to have a complement of 1+ marines.

As for the casualties you have already passed it i think, it occurs when the salamanders first encounter the death guard on the orbital station/rig, we know they were 66 of them before contact and we are show in latter scenes that 66 of them are still around, hence 0% deaths on that action, which left a minimum of 24 ( i would argue more and can detail the logic in this belief if you so wish) by my recollections death guard dead.

5) Unless the virus was rigged to be spread directly ( 100 or so meters) above and around the salamander position it would start reproducing and killing the moment it made contact with the atmosphere. Bacteria in the air to begun with and moving down from there, its called the life-eater for a reason.

MiyamatoMusashi
30-06-2015, 22:46
Nick Kyme has once again to me at least show his complete mediocrity

He's got better, then!?

[/snark]

7788
01-07-2015, 00:33
I'm sorry, but if nagash66 is describing #5 correctly, that is a deal breaker for me - I just won't be able to enjoy the rest, no matter what. At some point such plot twists become an insult to one's intelligence. If anything goes, anyone can write it. I'm still hoping nagash66 misunderstood something? Maybe it's wishful thinking.

Thanks for the reviews.

Havarel
01-07-2015, 07:45
Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk

bound for glory
01-07-2015, 19:56
Ok having finished the book ( spoilers ahead) i have gone from 'ok' to 'bad', and for anyone who cares let me tell you why:

The author disregards 30k-40k core backround as whim, now in small scale and for a clear purpose i am willing to kinda let it slide but this is not the case.

1) The ruinstorm, it was a creation meant to trap the Ultramarines and their empire of 500 worlds and was built AROUND those worlds. So why do the Salamanders having reached Terra and wanting to go back to their homeworld which lies half way between the two need to re enter it? Other then the author wanting to add tension it makes no sense, and to add insult to injury was not needed as they could have had a dangerous journey due to the status of the ship and its navigator and their enemies had a way of tracking them anyhow.

2) Nocturne, is a legion homeworld, yet it lacks even the most rudimentary of orbital defenses ( and when i say rudementary a single already crippled capital obtains orbital superiority and bombards the planet at will. Furthermore not a single space station, system defence ship or legion ship challenges the protaginist or antagonists vehicles on their arrival, not even the fortress monastery on vox.

3) Numbers, this is a constant gripe with BL but once again they ruin it for me. I will skip the red shirt death guard dying in droves early in the book for not a single salamander casualty ( something to the tune of 20-30 to none) and move to the core part of the this complaint. The death-guard have a single capital ship, which after sending and losing enough boarders to ensure capture of the Salamander capital ship ( so a minimum of lets say 30-50 marines as i will include word bearer allies even tho we are told only a single of 8 boarding torpedoes contains them). It then lands enough marines to make a assault on a dug in force of 800 salamanders a realistic probability, additionally the salamanders estimate they are outnumbered to some degree.

Look i know the want to make it interesting and add tension but a single capital ship ( i would include glorianna class in this) carriyng over 1000 marines as crew is a no no. Even in the heresy the ship design and tactics simply did not work that way. We have other heresy books which confirm this, strike cruisers= about 100 marines, or they get cramped ( see Meduson) Battle Barges =200-400. Glorianna class can hit the 1000 mark. But thats it. Worse still we are told word of god this is a cast away force of Death Guard that are discarded by their primarch. Again BL please remember your own fluff. A force of over 1000 marines post Istavaan is not disregarded by anyone. Let alone by a legion which has suffered large casualties. It is a system shattering army of conquest, not a forgotten band of raiders .

5) Stupid, so much stupid. The death guard proceed to unleash the life eater on Nocturne, but dont worry guys the salamanders use giant flamers to burn it out of the air before it can kill them! This is a result of letting your own writing having a capital ship of a legion famous for using chemical and proscribed weapons take orbit over something that they should never be allowed to take orbit over. Stupid used to combat stupid.


This book is a time killer, by the company, by the author by its own story. It should not have passed the story board phase and i am saddened not by its quality but by its potential. Because a well written story about a group of Salamanders clinging on to their last dregs of hope as they complete a Odyssey back to their homeworld could have been awesome. Nick Kyme has once again to me at least show his complete mediocrity, a word which should never been associated with the HH.

i re read this 3 times and i still have no idea what you are saying...

nagash66
01-07-2015, 22:26
i re read this 3 times and i still have no idea what you are saying...

Book, bad. Backround not respected, examples given. In my view at least.


If you have read the book then i must truly suck at explaining things, if you have not read the book then out of context it may seem gibberish.

But if you tell what you dont understand i can try and be clearer.

Mob
11-07-2015, 01:35
I'm sorry, but if nagash66 is describing #5 correctly, that is a deal breaker for me - I just won't be able to enjoy the rest, no matter what. At some point such plot twists become an insult to one's intelligence. If anything goes, anyone can write it. I'm still hoping nagash66 misunderstood something? Maybe it's wishful thinking.

Thanks for the reviews.
He more or less is. The Life Eater doesn't really get anywhere because a) Nocturne's atmosphere is resilient to it, apparently. Something to do with all the volcanic gasses, it was kind of glossed over. And b) The Sallies do indeed use giant flame cannons to just...burn it.

The whole end fight was bad. It was really crammed in. I don't like Kyme, but I felt this book was passable if you can deal with his usual foibles (Over-use of a thesaurus, wincingly on-the-nose naming and literary references, narrow imagery, the urge to try and be 'cool') as they were all outweighed by some reasonably dense character work, that while shallow, was consistent and prevalent enough to drag me through the plot. That is, until the completely dumb and rushed ending. The Death Guard are built up to be a threat, then they get wrecked in a half dozen pages in quite a stupid and badly-written way (let's just say...here be dragons), and the Salamanders characters just blow through them with no trouble at all. Quite an anti-climax. The last fifth of the book was a notable dip in quality, and it didn't start at an especially high point to begin with.

The worthwhile points of this book, to me, revolve around two plot elements; the final fate of Vulkan, which you obv have to read the whole thing to get to, and the sub-plot involving Narek, which, seeing as it was the most interesting thing in the novel, is of course left hanging.

Mellow
11-07-2015, 05:39
I quite enjoyed the book. Yes, there were rushed battle scenes towards the end and some parts that make you think "surely that's not right for a Legion home world" but it was still a good enough story (although it felt very long at times).

One part I did like is how the Salamanders are shown to be more compassionate and seem to care about the average Humans as that fits in with the characteristics they've had for many years.

fluxdeluxe
11-07-2015, 09:57
I'm further through and what I find more than a little jarring is the lack of brotherhood between the death guard and the word bearers. They really do act almost like the traitor legions post heresy its bit weird.

nagash66
11-07-2015, 11:39
I'm further through and what I find more than a little jarring is the lack of brotherhood between the death guard and the word bearers. They really do act almost like the traitor legions post heresy its bit weird.

Considering one of them is the legion which HATES psykers and the other is full of deamon summing, cult leading sorcerers, it was passable.

But yeah it was a bit too glaring.

fluxdeluxe
11-07-2015, 18:15
Considering one of them is the legion which HATES psykers and the other is full of deamon summing, cult leading sorcerers, it was passable.

But yeah it was a bit too glaring.


Yeah but but it goes beyond that there's no honour among any of the bad guys I just wouldn't have expected to see this degeneration of the soul so quickly especially towards their own brothers. The deatguard commander is particularly poorly portrayed. Also it's strange how these elements of the death guard and word bearers seem to be Operating completely autonomously from any form of central command even though there are two huge prizes to be gained in the fulgrite and Vulcans corpse. I would have thought that the newly enlightened mortarion and lorgar would have a big interest in this. The first half of the book is excellent the second half degenerates somewhat

Spellfire
12-07-2015, 19:51
So recently finished this. Overall another mediocre entry into what seems to be quickly turning into a stagnant series. Mob, above, captured neatly my issues with Kyme as the author of this - too much navel-gazing, uninspiring action sequences and an unconvincing use the thesaurus.

Really hoping HH picks up soon, it kinda feels like we've hit the midpoint of Wheel of Time or something.

ReconTrojan
14-07-2015, 04:16
After reading this book I have to agree with the posts that complain about the number of DG Space Marines that are pouring out of this single ship and the lack of defenses at a Legion home world. I did like most of it until then and after reading the Tallarn book which was without a doubt the most poorly written of all the HH novels I've read ( I have read them all) it was refreshing to at least have a book I could enjoy somewhat.

While I have never played the board game I enjoy the HH series immensely. My biggest gripe between reading 40k and HH is the disposal of the "good" primarchs, I'm sure it's for gaming purposes they were ushered off on mysterious missions and strange deaths but it is as annoying as the Master of Mankind suddenly after living for tens of thousands of years not being able to make good decisions. Almost like Muad dib in some aspects of letting it " play out". But the end of this book with Vulkan just reinforces my annoyance.

Oots
14-07-2015, 16:46
Yeah but but it goes beyond that there's no honour among any of the bad guys I just wouldn't have expected to see this degeneration of the soul so quickly especially towards their own brothers. The deatguard commander is particularly poorly portrayed.

Yeah it bugs me a little when characters from the traitor legions get written this way, too obviously villainous and treacherous. It would be more interesting actually if some of them tried to hold to concepts like honour and brotherhood. I guess the reasoning is, once one big act of treachery happens, further betrayal becomes easier. Still a slower fragmenting would I think make for more compelling reading than just going straight to "Always Chaotic Evil".

Anyway. Deathfire's not the worst in the series but it was more functional than outstanding. The themes of the Salamanders dealing with grief, and some clinging to faith, are good ones but not enough to really flesh out the action scenes and rather predictable "Awful Stuff Happens in the Warp" chapters. Honestly by the time the final battle arrived I was just willing the plot to hurry up and finish.

The little glimpse of Imperium Secundus was intriguing though. I'm assuming we're due at least one more book on that topic, just to let us know how its brief existence ended. And what Kurze is up to.

MajorWesJanson
14-07-2015, 16:49
The Life Eater thing is a bit odd, but it can be rationalized. It's not an entire fleet doing a saturation bombardment of a normal world (like Isstvaan) but a single damaged ship shelling a single point on a life sparse volcanic world. Meh.

nagash66
14-07-2015, 18:30
The Life Eater thing is a bit odd, but it can be rationalized. It's not an entire fleet doing a saturation bombardment of a normal world (like Isstvaan) but a single damaged ship shelling a single point on a life sparse volcanic world. Meh.

If it was just that it was too little to majorly affect a extremely hostile environment i could live with it.

The giant flamer cannons tho make it a no no.

ReconTrojan
14-07-2015, 19:53
Yeah it bugs me a little when characters from the traitor legions get written this way, too obviously villainous and treacherous. It would be more interesting actually if some of them tried to hold to concepts like honour and brotherhood. I guess the reasoning is, once one big act of treachery happens, further betrayal becomes easier. Still a slower fragmenting would I think make for more compelling reading than just going straight to "Always Chaotic Evil".

Anyway. Deathfire's not the worst in the series but it was more functional than outstanding. The themes of the Salamanders dealing with grief, and some clinging to faith, are good ones but not enough to really flesh out the action scenes and rather predictable "Awful Stuff Happens in the Warp" chapters. Honestly by the time the final battle arrived I was just willing the plot to hurry up and finish.





The little glimpse of Imperium Secundus was intriguing though. I'm assuming we're due at least one more book on that topic, just to let us know how its brief existence ended. And what Kurze is up to.

Which was another problem, you have a maniac on the loose with 3 Primarchs sitting around holding court. Sorry but I just can't imagine the Lion or Angel playing admin when Konrad is on the loose.

DarkChaplain
16-07-2015, 04:18
Konrad Curze is gone from Macragge. He was spirited away at the end of The Unremembered Empire. There is nothing left for the Primarchs on Macragge than to wait and see. "On the loose" in this case means "somewhere in the galaxy", not even necessarily in Ultramar.

There's also been a relatively lengthy time between the ending of TUE and Deathfire. Thiel had to return, and he only left Calth after Imperium Secundus had already been declared and the Underworld War had been raging for years. The whole Sanguinor thing seems to have transpired, too.

ReconTrojan
16-07-2015, 05:29
Konrad Curze is gone from Macragge. He was spirited away at the end of The Unremembered Empire. There is nothing left for the Primarchs on Macragge than to wait and see. "On the loose" in this case means "somewhere in the galaxy", not even necessarily in Ultramar.

There's also been a relatively lengthy time between the ending of TUE and Deathfire. Thiel had to return, and he only left Calth after Imperium Secundus had already been declared and the Underworld War had been raging for years. The whole Sanguinor thing seems to have transpired, too.

I thought I read that the Ultramarines had teams out scouring the countryside for Konrad during one of the exchanges between the Primarchs. But ok, he got away. Konrad is another of those tragic figures that I often wonder what the Emperor was thinking anyway when letting him and the NL go to town. At some point outside of the apartments he built for his 20 "sons" I wonder was the plan to kill half of these loons at the end of the crusade? I mean really Angron and Konrad were what? run the imperial post office and have a whole other level of going postal?

Perrin
17-07-2015, 11:17
Konrad Curze is gone from Macragge. He was spirited away at the end of The Unremembered Empire. There is nothing left for the Primarchs on Macragge than to wait and see. "On the loose" in this case means "somewhere in the galaxy", not even necessarily in Ultramar.

There's also been a relatively lengthy time between the ending of TUE and Deathfire. Thiel had to return, and he only left Calth after Imperium Secundus had already been declared and the Underworld War had been raging for years. The whole Sanguinor thing seems to have transpired, too.

Have I missed something? Pretty sure Curze got spat back out of the warp in the mountains near Macragge's capital city.

DarkChaplain
17-07-2015, 11:27
You're right. Guess it has been too long since I read TUE. I could've sworn he was in the wild unknown and just saw it through his visions.

Then that begs the question why the hell Konrad didn't arrive back in the city yet, considering it was just "a fortnight's trek"...

fluxdeluxe
17-07-2015, 11:41
You're right. Guess it has been too long since I read TUE. I could've sworn he was in the wild unknown and just saw it through his visions.

Then that begs the question why the hell Konrad didn't arrive back in the city yet, considering it was just "a fortnight's trek"...

perhaps he's biding his time, we know very little about Sanginus and his relationship with the other Primarchs apart from he was near universally admired. He seems to be the antithesis of the night haunter also, perhaps the arrival of Sanguinus has given Kurze further angles to consider.

ReconTrojan
17-07-2015, 20:10
perhaps he's biding his time, we know very little about Sanginus and his relationship with the other Primarchs apart from he was near universally admired. He seems to be the antithesis of the night haunter also, perhaps the arrival of Sanguinus has given Kurze further angles to consider.

If you mean having to potentially confront 3 primarchs in combat, yes of course you're right. The URE IMO made Konrad a cross between Corax and Angron, a little too powerful if you ask me. Again, another Primarch that could have been had the Emperor actually tried to guide and shape these wonderful killing machines he created. Sure they all got shaped by the worlds they ended up on but for example Angron, would it have killed him to save all of his guys as opposed to leaving them there to be slaughtered. Or how about sending down a legion and cleaning up that world and installing Angron the savior and leader. Would have gone a long way in easing those nails and no resentment. Sometimes the way they paint the MofM I wonder if he actually had a plan at all.

nagash66
18-07-2015, 12:35
My hope is that when a novel touches upon Imperium Secundus again we will see there was a reason for 3 primarchs and their legions gathering and preparing on a single world. Rather then at least cleansing the 500 worlds with force, instead of small Ultra forces doing it.

Nazguire
19-07-2015, 09:55
If you mean having to potentially confront 3 primarchs in combat, yes of course you're right. The URE IMO made Konrad a cross between Corax and Angron, a little too powerful if you ask me. Again, another Primarch that could have been had the Emperor actually tried to guide and shape these wonderful killing machines he created. Sure they all got shaped by the worlds they ended up on but for example Angron, would it have killed him to save all of his guys as opposed to leaving them there to be slaughtered. Or how about sending down a legion and cleaning up that world and installing Angron the savior and leader. Would have gone a long way in easing those nails and no resentment. Sometimes the way they paint the MofM I wonder if he actually had a plan at all.

When they were writing the Heresy way back when I doubt they considered all the possible philosophical, sociological, and life questions that would arise from it X amount of years down the track. Now BL are having to pull of some exceptionally tricky patch up jobs and explanations to make it understandable.

ReconTrojan
19-07-2015, 14:34
When they were writing the Heresy way back when I doubt they considered all the possible philosophical, sociological, and life questions that would arise from it X amount of years down the track. Now BL are having to pull of some exceptionally tricky patch up jobs and explanations to make it understandable.

While I can understand that at some level there is no excuse for somethings being handled with a simple line that would hold zero credibility when held up to scrutiny. For example, the Interex were a highly advanced race of humans that had technology that in many ways exceeded that of the Imperium. They had over 25 systems and allies yet in Flight of the Einstein a simple phrase " burning of the Interex" is used.....really? by whom and what legions? It wasn't the Luna Wolves, in fact Horus remarks that they will have to be re-visted by the Imperium later ( not destroyed) Like getting rid of the allied Primarchs this casual destruction of advanced human allies is just another way to clear the decks of anything that would make their gaming harder in 40k. Why bother introducing these races if you're going to insult the reader with their apparent destruction with a wave of the hand.

Nazguire
21-07-2015, 03:59
While I can understand that at some level there is no excuse for somethings being handled with a simple line that would hold zero credibility when held up to scrutiny. For example, the Interex were a highly advanced race of humans that had technology that in many ways exceeded that of the Imperium. They had over 25 systems and allies yet in Flight of the Einstein a simple phrase " burning of the Interex" is used.....really? by whom and what legions? It wasn't the Luna Wolves, in fact Horus remarks that they will have to be re-visted by the Imperium later ( not destroyed) Like getting rid of the allied Primarchs this casual destruction of advanced human allies is just another way to clear the decks of anything that would make their gaming harder in 40k. Why bother introducing these races if you're going to insult the reader with their apparent destruction with a wave of the hand.

The entire point of the Interex was just to highlight to the reader the complete ignorance of Chaos that the Warmaster and the Legions possessed. They were a disposable creation. Though I do agree - don't introduce something if you haven't thought it the whole way through and covered most possibilities.

acopp07
21-07-2015, 19:26
Book, bad. Backround not respected, examples given. In my view at least.


If you have read the book then i must truly suck at explaining things, if you have not read the book then out of context it may seem gibberish.

But if you tell what you dont understand i can try and be clearer.



You're correct !!!!

Ive been reading 40K since 1989... SUPER excited about Horus Heresy Series...it was going STRONG then in the last three years it went to LIMITED NOVELLAS and EVEN more exclusive GAME Day releases ... \

I have NO idea where it is going or who the main characters are ?

I think back when Black Library had a release schedule and I would PRE ORDER books. Every weekend I was getting new books. Now I dont even know what to read it.

ReconTrojan
21-07-2015, 20:51
The entire point of the Interex was just to highlight to the reader the complete ignorance of Chaos that the Warmaster and the Legions possessed. They were a disposable creation. Though I do agree - don't introduce something if you haven't thought it the whole way through and covered most possibilities.

A fair point. I have to ask though because it would seem even with the lodges that with every subsequent book in the series it seems as though Horus knew long before Erbus got there that "something" was happening. Sure the resentment over his dad and terra's mere mortals busting his chops but there is something else. There are bits and pieces of it alluded to by the Half-Heard saying early in the first book that the legion was "changing". However back to the Interex the Warmaster himself says that the Imperium would send a delegation to continue diplomacy but instead we get a 3 word epitaph in a subsequent book. Then there is the timeline, it wasn't long after this that the Legions began planning for the betrayal...which legion(s) destroyed the Interex? Because noway that other than the Ultramarines or Word Bearers any legion had the single size to wipe them out. Their fleet had ships bigger than Battle Barges and their ground forces were advanced and numerous. Heck they set up Murder as a animal preserve and it gave the Blood Angels and EC all they could take and then some.

MiyamatoMusashi
21-07-2015, 23:01
Reading this now. Exemplifying it so far, is the scene that went like this (paraphrased):


"We have made our decision."
"I would like to change your mind."
"Once a Salamander has made a decision, he never, ever changes his mind. EVER."
"Still, I'd like to try."
"Go on then."
"Look out of this window."
"OK."
"Have you changed your mind?"
"Hmm... well... I suddenly have doubt... I'm no longer sure..."

Yeah, it's pretty awful. Nick Kyme just doesn't get any better as an author, that's the simple truth of it. I'm not reading this for pleasure (luckily enough, as it's intensely difficult to derive pleasure from something this poor), I'm reading this for the sake of completion and to avoid missing anything important to the overall plot.

I'm still finding it really hard work, and that's a fact.

ReconTrojan
22-07-2015, 02:52
Reading this now. Exemplifying it so far, is the scene that went like this (paraphrased):



Yeah, it's pretty awful. Nick Kyme just doesn't get any better as an author, that's the simple truth of it. I'm not reading this for pleasure (luckily enough, as it's intensely difficult to derive pleasure from something this poor), I'm reading this for the sake of completion and to avoid missing anything important to the overall plot.

I'm still finding it really hard work, and that's a fact.


If you think that is bad..wait till you try Tallarn: Ironclad by French. It's not just bad HH it is a horrible book regardless of genre. It was painful to read.

Mellow
22-07-2015, 07:27
What's the next book in the series meant to be and does anyone know when it's meant to be out?

7788
22-07-2015, 15:03
The entire point of the Interex was just to highlight to the reader the complete ignorance of Chaos that the Warmaster and the Legions possessed. They were a disposable creation. Though I do agree - don't introduce something if you haven't thought it the whole way through and covered most possibilities.

I don't think that the Interex were disposable. In my reading, they were instrumental to the story: no Interex -> no Kinebrach Anathame -> no mortal Horus wound -> no Chaos corruption of Horus -> no Heresy.

As told.
And whether by design or (likely) by chance you probably could, if you so desired, consider the lore as being unclear on whether the encounter with the Interex was not part of the Chaos plot to begin with (so that their agent could then steal the Anathame).

ReconTrojan
22-07-2015, 20:12
I don't think that the Interex were disposable. In my reading, they were instrumental to the story: no Interex -> no Kinebrach Anathame -> no mortal Horus wound -> no Chaos corruption of Horus -> no Heresy.

As told.
And whether by design or (likely) by chance you probably could, if you so desired, consider the lore as being unclear on whether the encounter with the Interex was not part of the Chaos plot to begin with (so that their agent could then steal the Anathame).

Very good point. What makes me wonder about the Interex is how much more enlightened they were than the Imperium. Their technology was advanced, they understood Chaos and we're not resigned to abandoning R&D for fear of taint. Again, it's a easy way to explain away a race or strain of humanity that would have been instrumental in our development post HH.

MiyamatoMusashi
24-07-2015, 11:15
Still struggling with this.

When a book has to tell you: "it was poignant", "it was profound", you know there's something wrong. (Show, don't tell, is even in the BL writing guidelines, which you'd think Kyme would know, being an editor). How about just show me what's happening and let me decide for myself if it is poignant and profound? Clue: it's not.

Mob
24-07-2015, 23:01
Fire Man Ignites Ham'Let stood, his onyx head bowed, the burning coals of his broiling, fiery eyes lighting the ashen gloom of the dark tomb with a red glow. The darkness of the sepulchre could not be fully illuminated by the smouldering gaze of the downcast warrior. It was a metaphor.
Ham'Let was confused by feeling sad. Grief was a powerful emotion. To feel grief was to experience mourning. A dimming of the embers of the heart, a dampened flame of the forge. But what flame could not be rekindled by purpose?
The powerful Fire Man knew he should have a purpose.
He had one once, bringing incandescent wrath to the enemies of the lord of fire with flame and other words for flame. And also wrath. Wrath as hot as a really hot fire that you use to smelt metal. And like the metal that you smelted, Ham'Let knew his purpose could be remade if he could but find the will to stoke the flames of his molten heart. But until then he felt sad.
It was a poignant moment.
He struggled to think of a way to express his feelings, but he had literally used up all the words he knew to do with things being on fire. Even the profound teachings of Vulkan - who lives, by the way - had limit. Perhaps he should consider another aspect of simile and metaphor? It was hard. What is not burning? Cold. Cold is blue. He felt blue. Cerulean blue is a nice colour that should be mentioned more.
Sighing, Fire Man Ignites Ham'Let cast his gleaming gaze around the dark grave-like resting place. It lit upon a copy of 'The Odyssiad' by Homer Simpspear.
'That's it!' he thought to himself, 'Illumination at last! Vulkan lives!'

And then a Contemptor Dreadnought with twin-linked multi-meltas and a thunderfire cannon loaded with incendiary helldrake shells jumped out.

7788
24-07-2015, 23:58
I'd buy it. But only if it's a limited edition with pages made out of scorched parchment (Komodo Dragon preferred).

Nazguire
25-07-2015, 11:16
Fire Man Ignites Ham'Let stood, his onyx head bowed, the burning coals of his broiling, fiery eyes lighting the ashen gloom of the dark tomb with a red glow. The darkness of the sepulchre could not be fully illuminated by the smouldering gaze of the downcast warrior. It was a metaphor.
Ham'Let was confused by feeling sad. Grief was a powerful emotion. To feel grief was to experience mourning. A dimming of the embers of the heart, a dampened flame of the forge. But what flame could not be rekindled by purpose?
The powerful Fire Man knew he should have a purpose.
He had one once, bringing incandescent wrath to the enemies of the lord of fire with flame and other words for flame. And also wrath. Wrath as hot as a really hot fire that you use to smelt metal. And like the metal that you smelted, Ham'Let knew his purpose could be remade if he could but find the will to stoke the flames of his molten heart. But until then he felt sad.
It was a poignant moment.
He struggled to think of a way to express his feelings, but he had literally used up all the words he knew to do with things being on fire. Even the profound teachings of Vulkan - who lives, by the way - had limit. Perhaps he should consider another aspect of simile and metaphor? It was hard. What is not burning? Cold. Cold is blue. He felt blue. Cerulean blue is a nice colour that should be mentioned more.
Sighing, Fire Man Ignites Ham'Let cast his gleaming gaze around the dark grave-like resting place. It lit upon a copy of 'The Odyssiad' by Homer Simpspear.
'That's it!' he thought to himself, 'Illumination at last! Vulkan lives!'

And then a Contemptor Dreadnought with twin-linked multi-meltas and a thunderfire cannon loaded with incendiary helldrake shells jumped out.

I want to take you for a seafood dinner.

Scribe of Khorne
25-07-2015, 16:52
lol...spoilers!

MiyamatoMusashi
29-07-2015, 07:34
Magnus Ex Machina.

And still the book keeps going.

PLEASE, GOD, LET IT END.

fluxdeluxe
29-07-2015, 21:48
Magnus Ex Machina.

And still the book keeps going.

PLEASE, GOD, LET IT END.

i wouldn't mind honestly if it was well written or remotely explained. Unfortunately Magnus is given the pantomime treatment

DarkChaplain
29-07-2015, 21:57
I really wish McNeill was finished with The Crimson King by now and we'd have a set release date to go by...

MiyamatoMusashi
29-07-2015, 22:19
My Kindle says I'm 89% of the way through this.

I'm just not sure I can endure the remaining 11%.

[...]

Well, I did. Just about.

:shifty:

What did I just read.

What the **** did I just read.

They defended Nocturne against planetary bombardment featuring the Life-Eater Virus, with Bunsen burners. Bunsen burners. What the ****. What the actual ****.

Just... I don't... I can't... But...

What?

Nothing made any sense. Nothing in the whole damn book made any sense. I fear that my IQ has just been halved. There is a strange grey goo leaking out of my nose. I don't know where to begin with the stupid. It was all stupid. So stupid. Much stupid. Contagiously stupid. Peak stupid. It's past midnight, and sleep beckons, but I fear to close my eyes lest my nightmares are filled with an endless parade of cerulean-eyed drakes grasping forearms in the manner of warriors over and over and over again.

I did not enjoy this book. I could not find a single redeeming feature. Normally, I'd make a joke about the best bit being when it was over; but the afterword calmly informed me that this was merely the second book in a trilogy, as if suffering through the torment of reading this tripe wasn't already excruciating enough. My brain hurts. Can someone please phone an ambulance? I think I might be about to

cswang
30-07-2015, 07:34
My Kindle says I'm 89% of the way through this.

I'm just not sure I can endure the remaining 11%.

[...]

Well, I did. Just about.

:shifty:

What did I just read.

What the **** did I just read.

They defended Nocturne against planetary bombardment featuring the Life-Eater Virus, with Bunsen burners. Bunsen burners. What the ****. What the actual ****.

Just... I don't... I can't... But...

What?

Nothing made any sense. Nothing in the whole damn book made any sense. I fear that my IQ has just been halved. There is a strange grey goo leaking out of my nose. I don't know where to begin with the stupid. It was all stupid. So stupid. Much stupid. Contagiously stupid. Peak stupid. It's past midnight, and sleep beckons, but I fear to close my eyes lest my nightmares are filled with an endless parade of cerulean-eyed drakes grasping forearms in the manner of warriors over and over and over again.

I did not enjoy this book. I could not find a single redeeming feature. Normally, I'd make a joke about the best bit being when it was over; but the afterword calmly informed me that this was merely the second book in a trilogy, as if suffering through the torment of reading this tripe wasn't already excruciating enough. My brain hurts. Can someone please phone an ambulance? I think I might be about to


Breathe in, Musashi. Breathe in. Breathe out.

In, Out.


Now just think that at the rate BL is going, Nick Kyme is going to write the final battle between Horus and the Emperor. :skull:

MiyamatoMusashi
30-07-2015, 09:04
just think that at the rate BL is going, Nick Kyme is going to write the final battle between Horus and the Emperor. :skull:

:eek:

I need to go to my safe place and curl up in the foetal position.

Seriously, man. There's some things you just don't... you just don't joke about.

Losing Command
30-07-2015, 10:11
No worries, judging the current rate of progression on the story then by the time BL finally reaches the end of the HH we won't be around anymore.

Nazguire
03-08-2015, 03:04
:eek:

I need to go to my safe place and curl up in the foetal position.

Seriously, man. There's some things you just don't... you just don't joke about.


If you think about it... considering how it seems a lot of their good authors have jumped on to so many other non-BL projects, it's not outside the realms of possibility.

fluxdeluxe
03-08-2015, 15:28
If you think about it... considering how it seems a lot of their good authors have jumped on to so many other non-BL projects, it's not outside the realms of possibility.

It's going to happen, expect most of the heresy material from Gav Thorpe & Nick Kyme.

I've no idea why an author as talented at ADB isn't publishing his own stuff anyway, I mean I enjoy his books as much as Joe Abercrombie or Richard Morgan.

The problem that BL have is that the heresy stuff at the beginning was so good. Abnett, Mcneil and ADB have seriously carried the series, Apart from a few initial weak entries (flight of the Eisenstein, ok, descent of Angels, terrible)

BL think they have this dynamite untouchable IP that they can get anybody to write for it and it's going to sell they are wrong the series has been built into the series it is by these guys. False Gods, Legion, The first Heretic, Fulgrim, Betrayer, Know no Fear, Mechanicum to pick a few great books. Seriously what has there been to that quality recently that hasn't been limited. It's terrible somebody high up has clearly made a decision for this stuff to go in a different direction. It's terrible.

nagash66
03-08-2015, 15:33
GW in general have long had the issue of nepotism in the ranks, game makers/editors becoming writers for no reason other then they know people and are already in the studio.

MiyamatoMusashi
03-08-2015, 17:15
BL think they have this dynamite untouchable IP that they can get anybody to write for it and it's going to sell

Well, sort of. They are actually very precious about who they let write HH (I believe there's an HH authors committee, and on the rare occasions they invite submissions they always explicitly say "no Heresy"). They just seem to be a bit hit-and-miss who they let on it.

I know Guy Haley made the grade relatively recently, and that's a good decision IMO; but someone like, say, Peter Fehervari is at least as good as Haley, maybe even up there with ADB, but BL don't appear (AFAIK) to have asked him to write HH, or indeed anything much at all lately AFAICT; and meanwhile you've got talentless hacks like Nick Kyme putting out not just HH novels, but occasional premium-priced HH novellas - which I feel compelled to buy because they're HH, but only under vociferous protest.

Granted, quality is subjective, and if the books I don't like didn't sell at all, they wouldn't keep publishing books by those authors. So plenty of people out there must presumably rate them rather better than I do. Fair enough; but still, there is this strange approach of at once being both hugely precious about who they let into the HH circle, and at the same time letting people knock off any old tat once they're in, in the expectation that it will sell. It's a bit schizophrenic.

I mean, don't get me wrong, I think keeping the HH writing circle limited is sensible (see final paragraph). And, of course, that circle must be at least a certain size - we can't expect ADB to write 50+ books on his own! I guess it's just a question of whether or not I personally agree with every one of BL's selections, which I accept will never be the case: they're not making the series exclusively for my personal benefit. And they can get it right unexpectedly, sometimes, too - I wouldn't previously have rated Rob Sanders as in BL's top tier of authors (though he's far from the worst), but I really, really enjoyed Cybernetica.

Still, the purpose of keeping the HH circle small ought to be to maintain quality, and there seem to have been rather too many HH books lately where it wasn't just me saying they weren't very good.

ReconTrojan
04-08-2015, 19:03
Back to this book or at least a question raised in it. I just finished reading an Anthology called Treacheries of the Space Marines, ADB had a story about the Night Lords taking out planets in the Assassins sphere of influence that were responsible for killing their Primarch. So he has these guys 20k of them of which he says was HALF the current legion size of 40k on this gathering. He says one battle barge can hold 12k Marines....plus they brought along 500 tanks and countless gunships etc.

What struck me was an answer to the question a previous poster raised about how many Space Marines can fit on these ships and the other ...how many Night Lords survived Terra and the Scouring? 40k? Does that number seem high to anyone else?

AlexHolker
04-08-2015, 20:01
He says one battle barge can hold 12k Marines...
That is a ridiculously high number. Your average chapter of Space Marines has 2-3 Battle Barges for 1000 Marines. Even if we assume each of those Battle Barges has enough excess capacity to comfortably house the Chapter by itself, that's still an order of magnitude lower than the number given.

Havarel
04-08-2015, 22:48
That is a ridiculously high number. Your average chapter of Space Marines has 2-3 Battle Barges for 1000 Marines. Even if we assume each of those Battle Barges has enough excess capacity to comfortably house the Chapter by itself, that's still an order of magnitude lower than the number given.
I think it's in the Night Lords trilogy that ADB makes the point that Heresy era battle barges and 40K barges are different beasts. Heresy barges are designed to support Legions tens of thousands strong, whereas 40K barges support a few companies. Which makes perfect sense. Even in Damnation of Pythos the strike cruiser is mentioned to be capable of holding at least a thousand Astartes.

Slightly back on topic, I really enjoyed this book. Loved the characters and the spiritual journey they took. Nick Kyme has massively improved as writer.

Mozzamanx
04-08-2015, 23:05
That is a ridiculously high number. Your average chapter of Space Marines has 2-3 Battle Barges for 1000 Marines. Even if we assume each of those Battle Barges has enough excess capacity to comfortably house the Chapter by itself, that's still an order of magnitude lower than the number given.

Deliverance Lost includes a scene where ~1500 Raven Guard are stationed aboard the Battle Barge Avenger and notes that this is well above the designed occupancy, with makeshift quarters being converted from storage, along corridors or in service vents.

nagash66
04-08-2015, 23:10
Deliverance Lost includes a scene where ~1500 Raven Guard are stationed aboard the Battle Barge Avenger and notes that this is well above the designed occupancy, with makeshift quarters being converted from storage, along corridors or in service vents.

Same thing for the strike cruiser mentioned by a previous poster in damnation of pythos.

30k or 40k anything more then a couple of hundred marines on a ship is above detrimental numbers of occupants.

MajorWesJanson
05-08-2015, 15:13
Remember, Battle Barge is a name for a ship role, covering multiple classes.
218200

The Legatus class is a variant of what is widely in use in 40K. Iron Blood seems to be a Iron Warriors version of the Glorianna class barge used as flagships back then.

nagash66
05-08-2015, 16:48
The Legatus class is a variant of what is widely in use in 40K. Iron Blood seems to be a Iron Warriors version of the Glorianna class barge used as flagships back then.

Gloriannas are few and far between, in 90% of cases i know of they have been Legion flagships. In the case of Deathfire, it was a battle barge the legion was willing to discard in a raiding fleet ( leaving aside that the size and power of the raiding fleet in question would make it so no one in their sane or chaos mind would discard the force).

silentsmoke
07-08-2015, 05:27
I just finished reading Deathfire and liked it. Took a while to get going but got itself together in the end. Looking for for the next HH book. Now back to Gaunts Ghosts in the mean time!

7788
11-08-2015, 18:31
I finally managed to finish this book. Not worth talking about it. I'm just sad that several good hints about the Horus Heresy were wasted in that morass.

Nazguire
14-08-2015, 07:18
Why not some Guy Haley, Steve Parker, or more Chris Wraight for HH? And why not full size novels, not these novellas or plus sized novellas they are passin off as novels- 240 pages? Really?

All relates back to $$$

MajorWesJanson
14-08-2015, 17:08
All relates back to $$$

And thus I've stopped giving BL any beyond omnibus or mmpb HH books

MiyamatoMusashi
18-08-2015, 08:04
Your point regarding my age (36) has nothing to do with my thoughts of the book. I'll just refrain from posting in the future with a comment like that.

Put him on your ignore list and keep posting. No great loss.

I mean, I wildly disagree with your assessment of the book, but since I'm the same age, I'm not about to use that as a cheap shot. :D

Mellow
19-08-2015, 15:43
It was quite alright except for the planetary defences at the end.

plus how is Vulcan suddenly sane again after falling in the volcano? He melted, while his body is fixed how does he store his memory's if his brain is gone momentarily?

DarkChaplain
20-08-2015, 03:51
Vulkan literally evaporated via atmospheric entry already. I don't think what happened this time is a dealbreaker compared to that.

I think a lot of it has to do with the sacrifice going along with it. That was the catalyst for Vulkan's return. Nothing happened before Numeon made his decision.

Phunting
20-08-2015, 23:39
Yeah it bugs me a little when characters from the traitor legions get written this way, too obviously villainous and treacherous. It would be more interesting actually if some of them tried to hold to concepts like honour and brotherhood. I guess the reasoning is, once one big act of treachery happens, further betrayal becomes easier. Still a slower fragmenting would I think make for more compelling reading than just going straight to "Always Chaotic Evil".This is pretty much the biggest indication of a poor writer in the series. I mean the whole point of the Heresy is the noble ideals of half of the Legions led them on a path to damnation. This is what makes ADB so good, he is able to make the villains understandable in their actions and not just cartoons.

I'm only about 25% in, and it hasn't been too bad on that count. The WBs liking pain for pain's sake seems the worst of it so far, but from reading the above it's likely to get worse. Oh well.

Darke
02-09-2015, 02:44
I have to say though, I do love the Narek plot. Finally we have an interesting Word Bearer - besides Lorgar.

Darke
02-09-2015, 03:00
By the way, any idea what the "Unearth Kabar" references were? It seems strangely familiar but I can't place it.

7788
02-09-2015, 13:39
I have to say though, I do love the Narek plot. Finally we have an interesting Word Bearer - besides Lorgar.

!!! Erebus is not interesting?!?! He's the single most important character in the Series

Darke
02-09-2015, 17:36
ADB almost made Erebus interesting, with his whole "Argel Tal is ex-pupil of Erebus and they had a falling out and tried to kill each other" but then Argel Tal went and died so I don't know if we're ever going to get all the backstory there.

Losing Command
03-09-2015, 05:43
Argel Tal migth still be ressurected for some reason. With the number of characters supposedly dead returning to life in the HH series, it would not suprise me at all (I genuinely believed Loken died on Isstvann III untill reading Vengefull Spirit and being very upset about not knowing what the hell happend in between because I'm incapable to follow the story of an audio drama :shifty:)

Tymell
03-09-2015, 17:26
Argel Tal migth still be ressurected for some reason. With the number of characters supposedly dead returning to life in the HH series, it would not suprise me at all (I genuinely believed Loken died on Isstvann III untill reading Vengefull Spirit and being very upset about not knowing what the hell happend in between because I'm incapable to follow the story of an audio drama :shifty:)

While not impossible, anyone who does will be risking the wrath of ADB :p I recall some comment from him somewhere along the lines of "If anyone brings Argel Tal back I'll [CENSORED BY THE HOLY INQUISITION] them."

fluxdeluxe
05-09-2015, 22:13
This is pretty much the biggest indication of a poor writer in the series. I mean the whole point of the Heresy is the noble ideals of half of the Legions led them on a path to damnation. This is what makes ADB so good, he is able to make the villains understandable in their actions and not just cartoons.

I'm only about 25% in, and it hasn't been too bad on that count. The WBs liking pain for pain's sake seems the worst of it so far, but from reading the above it's likely to get worse. Oh well.

villanous word bearers I can forgive. They are easily the most corrupted and their corruption was occurring for decades pre heresy. Lorgar and Kor Phaeron did a pretty good job of getting rid of most of the loyal followers of the word pre istvaan.

Its the other legions that act completely contrary to their legions sensibilities with not even a hint of self awareness.

i just don't think Kyme is cut out to write something like this. I did really, really enjoy the first third of the book. The rest is just really bad

Phunting
08-09-2015, 01:09
villanous word bearers I can forgive. They are easily the most corrupted and their corruption was occurring for decades pre heresy. Lorgar and Kor Phaeron did a pretty good job of getting rid of most of the loyal followers of the word pre istvaan.

Its the other legions that act completely contrary to their legions sensibilities with not even a hint of self awareness.

i just don't think Kyme is cut out to write something like this. I did really, really enjoy the first third of the book. The rest is just really badYeah indeed, the first part was actually quite enjoyable. And the Word Bearers' attitude was fine. Just a shame about the DG. If every book's going to insist on portraying them as already utterly degenerate during the early Heresy, they could at least bother to address how they got to that state, as they did with the WB & EC, rather than just have a complete 180 in the attitudes of one of the most puritanical legions without any decent attempt to explain it.

DarkChaplain
08-09-2015, 08:00
This ain't early in the Heresy, but years into it. And there *was* supposed to be a novel by James Swallow detailing the Death Guard's downfall, but alas, he hasn't written for BL in quite some time, beyond the odd short story or Garro drama. So who knows where the project went to, if not the trash bin?

Chris Wraight's depiction of Mortarion in Scars is during the early Heresy still, years before the Imperium Secundus storyline. After that he got a bit deeper into the abyss, up to Vengeful Spirit where he unleashes a living Life Eater virus marine. Vengeful Spirit seems to be on par with, or even a bit earlier than, the Imperium Secundus declaration in The Unremembered Empire, considering that Horus was as of yet unaware.

There is an undeniable gap in Death Guard development. Flight of the Eisenstein did very little to explore them and their reasons for turning, apart from Mortarion hating psykers. But then, seeing how he was in the know about Nikaea and was looking forward to the Webway project being completed so they could get rid of a lot of psykers in the Imperium, it doesn't quite make sense for him to turn when his goals are supposedly going to be fulfilled in the near future.

Apart from that main part of the Legion, we've only seen Calas Typhon a few times, and he's been Grandfather Nurgle's subject for a long time. But he's been separated and doing different things, so his influence seems to be somewhat minimal.

Tymell
08-09-2015, 18:21
This ain't early in the Heresy, but years into it. And there *was* supposed to be a novel by James Swallow detailing the Death Guard's downfall, but alas, he hasn't written for BL in quite some time, beyond the odd short story or Garro drama. So who knows where the project went to, if not the trash bin?

Into Chris Wraight's hands is where I'm crossing my extremities for :D (I can dream...)

But yeah, Deathfire is well into the Heresy. Unremembered Empire begins 2 years and 4 months after Calth, which we know is just past mid-007, putting UE at the end of 31,009. Deathfire takes place after that, so it's presumably somewhere in 31,010. If we count the Heresy as properly beginning at Isstvan III, it's more than half way through.


There is an undeniable gap in Death Guard development. Flight of the Eisenstein did very little to explore them and their reasons for turning, apart from Mortarion hating psykers. But then, seeing how he was in the know about Nikaea and was looking forward to the Webway project being completed so they could get rid of a lot of psykers in the Imperium, it doesn't quite make sense for him to turn when his goals are supposedly going to be fulfilled in the near future.

Aye, it's a shame we've seen so little of the XIVth Legion so far. Eisenstein was really more of a Garro novel than an actual Death Guard one, and while some DG being so corrupted like in Deathfire might be plausible by that point, because we've seen such bare scraps of their progress it still feels jarring.

Kiro
08-09-2015, 23:55
Can someone please give me a breakdown of Magnus' appearance/actions in the book?

DarkChaplain
09-09-2015, 11:25
Can someone please give me a breakdown of Magnus' appearance/actions in the book?

Magnus pops up when the Salamanders are amidst the ruinstorm and screwed with daemon girls. He "tests" Numeon by claiming he was the one keeping him alive and rescuing him and all that. I believe he also claims that the Sigil Numeon carries is not actually a beacon, but it was his doing.
Numeon defies him and doesn't buy into it. But then, it is said that Magnus might want to help his brother Vulkan after all.
We don't really know if any of Magnus' words hold any truth to them, or how much if they do. Gotta wait til The Crimson King.

Mob
10-09-2015, 01:39
He acts like a mashup of Circe + Prospero, basically.

DarkChaplain
10-09-2015, 11:05
Pretty much. It fits the Odyssey theme Kyme was going for.

MarcusAurelius
22-09-2015, 23:18
People still buy works by Kyme? To each his own I suppose...but I honestly think he is a consistently bad writer...Fall of Damnos is his only tolerable work

Lord Damocles
23-09-2015, 09:10
...Fall of Damnos is his only tolerable work
And even that is monstrously stupid.

Not as stupid as Spear of Macragge, but still...

MarcusAurelius
24-09-2015, 03:14
Fall of Damnos was OK in my book...I kinda liked how Agemman was portrayed as much more cool headed than Sicarius

narradisall
24-09-2015, 06:41
I've finally got up to here on the heresy, this the latest one? But of a snooze fest so far, but they've just reached the space station so I hope it picks up.

MarcusAurelius
25-09-2015, 04:13
James Swallow, Gav Thorpe, Nick Kyme, and Graham McNeill...if I see any of these names on a book, I avoid that book.

McNeill has one good book...ATS, which I view as an anomaly.

Kiro
30-09-2015, 00:46
Ok, so does Magnus actually cast fist or just show up at the end of the story as a 'you only made it through because of me' deus ex machina?

DarkChaplain
30-09-2015, 06:06
He appears halfway through the Salamanders' trip home to Nocturne.

Kiro
01-10-2015, 02:34
Moar, please.

Mob
01-10-2015, 05:47
What's in the spoiler is all he does, dude.

Kiro
01-10-2015, 19:27
Ah, ok. Thanks, guys.

bound for glory
08-10-2015, 15:47
i just finnished. was'nt that bad. mean to say, it was'nt prospearo burns bad. no wet leopard growls, so theres, that...