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View Full Version : Who would fare better without the other space marines or Astra militarum?



Commissar_Cripple
30-06-2015, 09:37
Lets face it if their were no Astra militarum the Imperium of man would fall pretty soon. On the other hand if all the space marines were to vanish, sure it would be a significant blow to the forces of mankind but i feel the Astra militarum would manage just need to raise a lot more regiments.


What are your guys thoughts on this, could the Astra militarum hold off the xenos by themselves?

Snake Tortoise
30-06-2015, 09:50
If one or the other were gone permanently it would surely have to be space marines. Whether or for how long the IG could hold things together I don't know, I think daemons and chaos marines would soon be on their way to Terra, but maybe not. They still have the navy and mechanicum

totgeboren
30-06-2015, 10:10
I think this belongs in the background section, but anyway.

Yes, the Imperium would be much better off if it lost the SM than if it lost the IG. Space Marines organised in Chapters are in many ways just gloryboys. They require lots of resources, are only really suited to some very narrow battlefield scenarios, are unreliable (you have to petition them for aid, and if they feel like it, perhaps they are honour bound to protect that planet or something, and providing they are not undergoing some weird 1 year fast or something, they can come to your aid). Most of the time they seem to be used primarily as a morale boost for the human grunts on the ground.

And sure, in some situations they are the only tool available that can get the job done, but all in all I think the Imperium would manage. Without the IG on the other hand, the Imperium would be screwed in notime.

Grand Master Raziel
30-06-2015, 11:10
I think it's an absurd scenario. If the IG just up and vanished one day, the Imperium would just train up more IG. Anything likely to wipe out the IG en masse all of a sudden would probably wipe out all of humanity, and it becomes a moot point. Ditto anything could wipe out all of the Space Marines en masse.

That said, if the IG were to suddenly go away, and for some reason the Imperium decided not to simply replace it with new IG, then by necessity they'd have to go back to having Space Marine Legions. Having the Legions come back would make fighting the Imperium a whole different kettle of fish than it is now. Remember, the Space Marine Legions were the primary fighting force during the Great Crusade. The IG came about out of the need to have less valuable troops to secure what they conquered.

Denny
30-06-2015, 11:12
The current fluff suggests that, despite the best efforts of the IG and Space Marines, mankind is doomed.
If the IG were wiped out mankind would still be doomed.
If the Space Marines were wiped out mankind would still be doomed.

Commissar_Cripple
30-06-2015, 11:33
Raziel I feel like you missed the point of my original post. It does not matter why one force is gone or how it happened, the question was whether or not the IG could manage without the SM or vice versa.

El Torro
30-06-2015, 11:34
There are approximately 1 million Space Marines in the whole of the Imperium. Sure, they're very valuable but a single founding of Imperial Guard regiments from a Hive world would probably raise significantly more than 1 million troops. Then take into account all the tanks, artillery, Titans, etc... that the Imperium can bring to bear and in the grand scheme of things the Space Marines just aren't that significant.

If the Imperial Guard didn't exist then yes, the Imperium would pretty much fall apart straight away.

ehlijen
30-06-2015, 12:42
Loosing either the Imperial Guard or the Space Marines would be a big blow to Imperium, likely too big.

Sure, if the IG stick around the defensive meat stays, the Imperium will be able to hold onto worlds much better than in the opposite scenario. But if a system is in trouble trying to organise reinforcements from other systems will be a bureaucratic nightmare. Unlike marines, IG regiments are rarely kept on ready station. They are raised and sent to a warzone (there is always a warzone); it is very difficult to quickly redeploy them to intervene in emergencies, especially if large amounts of Imperial Navy transports are required. As unreliable as their existence outside the command hierarchy can make the marines, if they respond, they can at least respond in time reliably.

So without the IG, the imperium would collapse quickly after the IN gets broken.
Without the SM, the imperium could hold on longer, but would not be able to respond to any emergencies effectively and thus still collapse more quickly.
And just for completeness, without the IN, I think it would be worst. The imperium would quickly be reduced to only its most wealthiest systems, become isolated and then die.

kilkrazy
30-06-2015, 14:36
There are approximately 1 million Space Marines in the whole of the Imperium. Sure, they're very valuable but a single founding of Imperial Guard regiments from a Hive world would probably raise significantly more than 1 million troops. Then take into account all the tanks, artillery, Titans, etc... that the Imperium can bring to bear and in the grand scheme of things the Space Marines just aren't that significant.

If the Imperial Guard didn't exist then yes, the Imperium would pretty much fall apart straight away.

Only a million, says a lot about a marines worth then doesn't it.
That should tell you where mankind is on the universe power level. A stat 2 across the board really, skaven like.
Alone neither can stand. Mars couldnt stand on its own
Marines rapidly plugging/ attempting to fill the gaps. The IG are the linemen/props and locks of 40k. Being slow to let the hammer fall, but when it does, it hits

Bloodknight
30-06-2015, 15:27
Only a million, says a lot about a marines worth then doesn't it.

It could suggest that most of their worth lies in propaganda while the actual work is being done by the Imperial Guard.

El Torro
30-06-2015, 16:36
It could suggest that most of their worth lies in propaganda while the actual work is being done by the Imperial Guard.

Yes, exactly.

GW should have addressed this some time ago, probably a bit late now. Releasing a codex for Dark Angels for example seems a bit redundant when there's only 1,000 of them. Considering they live in an Imperium of 1 million planets they are not even a drop in the ocean.

All it would take is for GW to say "Oh, did we say there were 1,000 Space Marines in a Chapter? We meant 20,000!". That at least would make Space Marines a force to be reckoned with fluffwise. This is a lot easier said than done now though since so much material is based on Chapters of 1,000.

Arthanor
30-06-2015, 17:25
I think having them as line breakers and shock troopers who can take the most dangerous missions and look good doing it for propaganda value is awesome. It leaves the imperium of Man to the men and women of the IG, but gives us some heroic few to play with and make the setting more flavourful.

Grndhog89
30-06-2015, 17:51
The true heroes always have been and will be the IG.

Sumilarly; if you got rid of all CSM the followers of Chaos would still be near uncountable. The face of both the IoM and its Chaotic twin are the ubiquitous humans who comprise them. Not the .00001% that are the PA freaks.

AngryAngel
30-06-2015, 19:54
Lets really face it, there really is no astra militarum and only really the imperial guard. That said, the guard would deal better without the space marines then the other way around, simply on numbers, the marines don't have them.

InstantKarma
30-06-2015, 20:48
Yes, exactly.

GW should have addressed this some time ago, probably a bit late now. Releasing a codex for Dark Angels for example seems a bit redundant when there's only 1,000 of them. Considering they live in an Imperium of 1 million planets they are not even a drop in the ocean.

All it would take is for GW to say "Oh, did we say there were 1,000 Space Marines in a Chapter? We meant 20,000!". That at least would make Space Marines a force to be reckoned with fluffwise. This is a lot easier said than done now though since so much material is based on Chapters of 1,000.

Specifically for the DAs, SWs and BTs the "1000 marines' is problematic becuase the fluff for those 3 specific chapters states that in their own ways they flaunt that resitrction. For BTs it is because they have so many recruitment worlds and crusades that no one is actually sure how many BTs there actually are, but it is suspected to be above the 1000 limit. SWs just flaunt the rules and no one in the Imperium cares to try to enforce them. The DAs have numerous recruitment worlds, to keep secret how many they are actually recruiting, and it is reported they work more closely than they should (by Imperial standards) with their sucessor chapters. Hell, the DAs are accused of LEGION BUILDING because of those things, and so the High Lords tend to avoid their gene seed because they don't trust anyone DA related. So figured the DAs have 6 known successor chapters, and they are probably above the 1000 mark, they have at least 7000+ to call on when needed.

insectum7
30-06-2015, 22:22
Specifically for the DAs, SWs and BTs the "1000 marines' is problematic becuase the fluff for those 3 specific chapters states that in their own ways they flaunt that resitrction. For BTs it is because they have so many recruitment worlds and crusades that no one is actually sure how many BTs there actually are, but it is suspected to be above the 1000 limit. SWs just flaunt the rules and no one in the Imperium cares to try to enforce them. The DAs have numerous recruitment worlds, to keep secret how many they are actually recruiting, and it is reported they work more closely than they should (by Imperial standards) with their sucessor chapters. Hell, the DAs are accused of LEGION BUILDING because of those things, and so the High Lords tend to avoid their gene seed because they don't trust anyone DA related. So figured the DAs have 6 known successor chapters, and they are probably above the 1000 mark, they have at least 7000+ to call on when needed.

That 7000 is still counted within the 1,000,000. Add a couple extra thousand for bloated chapters. Most Chapters even have supernumaries like Command Squads and Honor Guard. Pile on some larger than normal 10th companies for fast recruitment and assume that all Chapters are operating at full strength and. . . you still have several orders of magnitude fewer bodies when compared to the Guard.

The Space Marines probably couldn't fill the void if the Guard were to vanish, it would take some serious effort to get them back up to legion numbers. Guard, Arbites, Mechanicus, Sisters, Knights could more easily fill the void if there were no Space Marines, however.

Minsc
30-06-2015, 22:44
This feels abit like asking; "Who would fare better without the other - The US army or the NAVY Seals" (or something similar).

With that said, the Imperium in 40k is doomed either way. It would just go to hell/the warp quicker if the AM is gone. Space Marines are way to few to defend the Imperium on their own for any longer duration.

Konovalev
01-07-2015, 18:47
Either way the Imperium would be doomed.

Without the IG any old raiding party could kick over the local arbites and take a planet before the SM could reasonably be expected to respond.
Without the SM, invading armies would have little trouble accomplishing their strategic objectives and taking control of any given planet.

The fluff paints a picture that has the Imperium slowly losing ground and edging closer to annihilation even with all the factions doing their part. Take any piece out of that machine and the whole thing comes grinding to a halt.