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Drakkar du Chaos
30-06-2015, 21:04
With the rules leaked what do you think about this :

- Are AoS and WFB in the same category ?
- Are we gonna see AoS in tournament competitions ?

Voss
30-06-2015, 21:06
I can think of several categories they share.

Yes. Some people will try to make tournaments out of anything.

Threat level? No. WFB is dead already.

duffybear1988
30-06-2015, 21:07
I think they just killed Fantasy completely.

mdauben
30-06-2015, 21:57
- Are AoS and WFB in the same category ?
IMO they are two totally separate games, with little in common.


- Are we gonna see AoS in tournament competitions ?
Someone will probably try. Not sure how well it will work without pages of additional tournament rules and clarifications.

As far as being a threat? To what? WFB is dead no matter what happens with AoS.

Thorin
30-06-2015, 21:59
As AoS will replace WFB, it's not a threat, it's an execution.

And honestly, I'm happy about it.

Spiney Norman
30-06-2015, 23:22
Given the rules they've put out, I don't see any way for AoS to take over the competitive Warhammer scene, at least not for a long time. The USA Masters circuit will remain 8th edition this season. If over the next year GW puts out an actual rules set that's more than the....ugh.....they just put out, it might change. However, 8th is a very tight game with a solid competitive following.

And, since they pulled the books, I can definitely see a lot of free file sharing for the material they have abandoned. I can also see the USA Masters rules committee doing a bit of a tune up on the rules (similar to ETC) and then bam - a game.

I guess we get to see what wins - terrible system with updates, or solid system but abandoned by the company.

AoS as published by GW isn't a game at least not in the sense most war/board gamers use the term, at best it's an imaginative exercise, there is no way to quantify and match relative army strength, even when players are cooperating rather than competing there isn't even a scale which you can use to compare the two forces in any given game, a TO would literally have to create their own points system from scratch for the game to even work in a Tournement setting.

I really hope GW has thought this through, but I am clearly not the person this 'game' is designed for

Bloodknight
01-07-2015, 00:09
- Are AoS and WFB in the same category ?

No. Completely different animals. One is a tactical wargame, the other is something that looks like a game, but probably isn't one.


- Are we gonna see AoS in tournament competitions ?

With what we have, probably not. It would be way too much work to get something workable resembling a balanced game out of it for a tournament organizer.


But as to the question in the thread title: I think if it's remotely successful, it will be a threat to 40K. Not because of the money, but because they might want to turn 40K into something resembling it.

roperpg
01-07-2015, 00:30
Have played a few proxy games and... Blimey. It looks really simple on paper, but it isn't. The sudden death system polices massive units, and MSU (for example, you could take 20 1-man liberator champion units) come undone really quickly in the combat phases because *units* take turns, not players.

You don't even army-list. You just set up units until you decide to stop.
The biggest problem is that you just assume a WFB-style game, and it isn't.
WFB was a game won or lost in the movement phase.
AoS is a game that will reward the player with the best set-up strategy and most canny use of initiative / activation order.

Seriously. Try a few proxy games of similar model numbers, then try and break it by bearding out. It's a lot harder than it seems.

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HelloKitty
01-07-2015, 01:04
If AoS truly is "the new warhammer" and there is no "9th edition" as it seems is the case, then yes AoS is a threat for WFB because players largely won't play unsupported games, they will only play games that have company support AND a decent sized player base (generally speaking).

People will cling to 8th for a while, but eventually it will largely be extinct save for a scattered groups here and there that sometimes break it out.

Just Tony
01-07-2015, 02:39
I know my comp had a seizure just looking for Beasts of Chaos from 6th.

Ol'shas'ka
01-07-2015, 03:57
If AoS truly is "the new warhammer" and there is no "9th edition" as it seems is the case, then yes AoS is a threat for WFB because players largely won't play unsupported games, they will only play games that have company support AND a decent sized player base (generally speaking).

People will cling to 8th for a while, but eventually it will largely be extinct save for a scattered groups here and there that sometimes break it out.
Similar to this, I play in an area where the obvious nexuses for gaming are GW/Warhammer stores and I think it's highly unlikely that they'll continue to support and run 8th Edition events and campaigns after the release of AoS. I'm sure it isn't out of the question that they'll let people play 8th in the store but it's quite possible we'll see it phased out to some extent within the next few months.

GrandmasterWang
01-07-2015, 05:34
Have played a few proxy games and... Blimey. It looks really simple on paper, but it isn't. The sudden death system polices massive units, and MSU (for example, you could take 20 1-man liberator champion units) come undone really quickly in the combat phases because *units* take turns, not players.

You don't even army-list. You just set up units until you decide to stop.
The biggest problem is that you just assume a WFB-style game, and it isn't.
WFB was a game won or lost in the movement phase.
AoS is a game that will reward the player with the best set-up strategy and most canny use of initiative / activation order.

Seriously. Try a few proxy games of similar model numbers, then try and break it by bearding out. It's a lot harder than it seems.

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Thanks very much for that post. Very I interesting.

Aos is absolutely a threat to WFB. The games are very different .

As I love 8th Edition so much I have very mixed feelings on AOS.

Not at all happy they nuked the world but the new realms have potential

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Wesser
01-07-2015, 06:40
AoS more and more sound similar to LOTR, what with priority and such

AoS however is just part of the game, and not the whole game. I have it on good authority that mass-scale combat will be catered to in some upcoming releases

SuperHappyTime
01-07-2015, 06:48
Yes, because it's replacing WFB.
No, because it isn't WFB

It strikes me that they did away with WFB and designed AoS around the idea that "If it doesn't sell, we can implement it into 40K"

AngryAngel
01-07-2015, 07:16
Silly question, WFB is dead. The only way it will rise again, will be if AoS crashes and burns. Frankly, all it does is mean I don't need to feel need to play warhammer fantasy anymore aside from the random game of the existing WFB core rule book I own. The rules for AoS sound dreadful and scare me beyond my capacity for rational thought. Scares me as if that ends up the way they decide to go with 40k, I'll have to step away there as well. No point values for lists, buy models to get a " scroll " for what the unit does, all the dumbing down of the system. Even if the models are amazing, wouldn't be enough for the gamer in me. I want my large army battles, and other systems with a skirmish feel I'd rather play if I have to play at that level.

Ayin
01-07-2015, 07:20
WHFB is gone as a GW supported game.

Age of Sigmar is a completely different game in every way.


WHFB doesn't need "threats", it's already been killed by the company that actually produces it.

Montegue
01-07-2015, 07:24
No, it's been abandoned. It's only dead when it's actually gone. It's still got a lot of folks with big beautiful armies who enjoy playing at large events and will probably continue to do so for some time to come.

Tae
01-07-2015, 10:01
If AoS truly is "the new warhammer" and there is no "9th edition" as it seems is the case, then yes AoS is a threat for WFB because players largely won't play unsupported games, they will only play games that have company support AND a decent sized player base (generally speaking).

People will cling to 8th for a while, but eventually it will largely be extinct save for a scattered groups here and there that sometimes break it out.

This. Fantasy will become the next Blood bowl or Mordheim - loved by their communities but not played by many outside of that. Numbers will slowly dwindle out until eventually it becomes like a secret underground movement, spoken about in hushed whispers whilst glancing over ones shoulder, "Psst, hey kid, want to play Warhammer Fantasy? You don't work for GW right?"

Spiney Norman
01-07-2015, 10:02
No, it's been abandoned. It's only dead when it's actually gone. It's still got a lot of folks with big beautiful armies who enjoy playing at large events and will probably continue to do so for some time to come.

This is absolutely true, it will take a few years for wfb to completely die and KoW might've worked their game to be an acceptable transfer by then.

Unfortunately I think it might be rather more than WFB continues to be a threat to the success of AoS, at least unless we are missing something monumentally huge about AoS at this point it barely seems to work as a game at all, it would be somewhat embarrassing if, in say a years time, wfb is more widely ayes than AoS would it not?

Kaptajn_Congoboy
01-07-2015, 10:06
Silly question, WFB is dead. The only way it will rise again, will be if AoS crashes and burns.

Or not. It is equally likely that AoS, if it is a disaster, will just dwindle away for a few years and be replaced with something entirely new...or nothing at all. At that point, many current players will have moved to other systems, quit entirely, or play Oldhammer.

What the ETC and similar large tournaments does will probably determine if 8th becomes a good zombie (i.e. unsupported and thus dead but still played) game like Blood Bowl or if it will just be an oldhammer phenomenon.

Soulless
01-07-2015, 10:10
GW didn't kill WFB - players did with their wallets - sooner everyone gets this sooner the whine will stop.

Tae
01-07-2015, 10:12
GW didn't kill WFB - players did with their wallets - sooner everyone gets this sooner the whine will stop.

But GW set the prices, so ...

Spiney Norman
01-07-2015, 10:15
GW didn't kill WFB - players did with their wallets - sooner everyone gets this sooner the whine will stop.

Are you sure you don't work for GW? The sooner GW understands that their customers are under no obligation to buy their stuff just because they sell it, the sooner they will turn around their poor financial reports.

The failure of a product is not the fault of consumers for not buying it, it's the fault of the company for not marketing the right product, that's kind of how the free market works.

Snake Tortoise
01-07-2015, 13:53
I have nothing to do with WFB but it'll obviously be played for some time to come. It might even have a positive side effect for tournament play in that a stable set of rules will be easier for the player base/event organisers to fine tune through trial and error. Maybe it'll fragment the player base further though

FWIW the little I know about AoS makes me very worried GW will try something similar with 40k. Hopefully it's a flop so they aren't encouraged to go down that route, but since the introduction of flyers and apocalypse stuff I've lost a lot of faith in GW's game design

Soulless
01-07-2015, 14:21
Are you sure you don't work for GW? The sooner GW understands that their customers are under no obligation to buy their stuff just because they sell it, the sooner they will turn around their poor financial reports.

The failure of a product is not the fault of consumers for not buying it, it's the fault of the company for not marketing the right product, that's kind of how the free market works.

The failure of a product can be fault of many things. Some of them are marketing, prices or target group shrinkig. Maybe - just maybe - GW was more interested into draging new kids in who in 10 years will be as invested in AoS as we were and will dish out much cash on it ? You cannot drag kid in with complex rules and limitations.

Seriously AoS only sounds weird if you see it from perspective of a long time veteran - people of value can shift their views to see all aspects of the problem. All I'm saying is that I understand GW and I know there were many factors that influenced them.

HelloKitty
01-07-2015, 14:29
There are a lot of guys here excited about AoS. The thing that they have in common is that they are either

* already playing WHFB but only play with their friends (not in public, never in events)
* don't play WHFB but play WM/H

Pretty much 99% of our player base that enjoys fantasy (pre AoS) hates the idea.

So yeah its a marketing thing to get new people to buy fantasy models that weren't really buying before. I get that.

Deadhorse
01-07-2015, 14:38
GW killed fantasy with this release.

AoS looks like a stupidly simple version of 40k. And the question I keep asking is this: why would you buy AoS when you can buy 40k?
If you're bored with 40k, you'd probably go and look for something similarly complex, no one graduates to a dumber version of the game they've mastered.

So that leaves litle kids looking for really simple rules. But for these kids, 40k has tanks, guns, big robots, aliens and all sorts of stuff they get excited about. Fantasy is a setting for a *slightly* more mature audience. Basically, the proverbial 9 year old will not only like the sci-fi setting more, but will be naturally drawn to things that are "more grown up" as opposed to "stuff for little kids". So he'll want to buy what the 5th graders are playing :)

I don't get what this is supposed to do for GW. Most likely it'll just be another nail in their coffin.

roperpg
01-07-2015, 14:42
GW killed fantasy with this release.

AoS looks like a stupidly simple version of 40k. And the question I keep asking is this: why would you buy AoS when you can buy 40k?
If you're bored with 40k, you'd probably go and look for something similarly complex, no one graduates to a dumber version of the game they've mastered.

So that leaves litle kids looking for really simple rules. But for these kids, 40k has tanks, guns, big robots, aliens and all sorts of stuff they get excited about. Fantasy is a setting for a *slightly* more mature audience. Basically, the proverbial 9 year old will not only like the sci-fi setting more, but will be naturally drawn to things that are "more grown up" as opposed to "stuff for little kids". So he'll want to buy what the 5th graders are playing :)

I don't get what this is supposed to do for GW. Most likely it'll just be another nail in their coffin.
The rules are free. Try a few proxy games. Give it a proper go. If you still think it's stupid, at least you're then talking from a position of experience rather than assumption.

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Finnigan2004
01-07-2015, 14:43
I have to say that seeing the rules for AOS, the truth is that until they come up with real rules, AOS is not a threat to anything. Since Fantasy is dead, AOS is not a particular threat to it. On the other hand, is it a threat to-- say-- warmahordes? No, certainly not. Maybe it will be when they come up with real rules. Hopefully the crash and burn is hard enough to wake up GW corporate.

Bloodknight
01-07-2015, 14:44
You cannot drag kid in with complex rules and limitations.


That's exactly the stuff that male geek teenagers like. Rules to argue about. Look at roleplayers, the older they get the more they gravitate to simple systems that don't try to simulate roleplaying with rules. This game does not work for kids. It cannot be played by kids unless it's clandestinely supposed to be a catalyst for teen violence.

Nubl0
01-07-2015, 14:53
I'll just stick with 8th. AoS is just an even more dumbed down version of skirmish 40k from the sounds of it. I get my skirmish fix from warmahordes and malifaux these days.

In Dark Trees
01-07-2015, 15:08
I think GW's misguided commitment to Age of Sigmar, which looks so different from Warhammer it isn't worth comparing the two, might actually be a short to medium term boon to Warhammer. I hope to see community-officiated and routinely-tweaked rules and books and more competitive tournament play. In the long term, this kind of fragmentation will be the death of Warhammer. It may take a while, but the reek of decay will begin to hang heavy over the game; the models will begin to look dated and quaint; and the Old World will seem dull and tired. Without any kind of official support--some sort of centralized authority--Warhammer will slowly die.

I'll keep playing with my Beastmen for as long as I can find enemies for them to fight, but I think that ultimately I'll need to find another game or move on to some sort of adult diversion. Perhaps golf or wine-tasting.

Frogczar
01-07-2015, 15:39
Warhammer Fantasy Battles is dead. Long live Warhammer Fantasy Battles.

Not that I had any time for toy soldiers these days anyway like a lot of aging players. My beautifully painted armies will now forever sleep in boxes or possibly on display on shelves in the basement, where old toys go to die.

Whirlwind
01-07-2015, 16:14
The rules are free. Try a few proxy games. Give it a proper go. If you still think it's stupid, at least you're then talking from a position of experience rather than assumption.

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Hi, thanks for the post. Could you be a bit more specific about the games played. What models you used etc. Did you try and balance the units? How did the large unit get into combat with so many models into combat at once when they all have to pile into the nearest model? Did you try any of the jump and shoot models etc?

Thanks

Maccwar
01-07-2015, 16:16
Really. Try to find PDFs of 6th Ed. army books. Complete books. Not on a virus laden ID theft trap site. Then get back with me.

Does this mean it is worth putting my dead tree copies of the army books up on ebay now?

roperpg
01-07-2015, 16:35
Hi, thanks for the post. Could you be a bit more specific about the games played. What models you used etc. Did you try and balance the units? How did the large unit get into combat with so many models into combat at once when they all have to pile into the nearest model? Did you try any of the jump and shoot models etc?

Thanks
First game we unbalanced intentionally - Liberators + relictor vs. 2 mobs of bloodborn, Sudden Death invoked and Sigmarines because the Relictor ran like hell to stay away from the BB.

2nd game we introduced the Celestant (mounted) plus the Khorne bods gained a flying Sigmarite - sudden death didn't apply, so it was to the death.

At one point the Relictor and Liberators were in combat with both BB mobs. Yes, you have to move toward the closest model but when charging you don't (to our reading) which allows you to fan out to take advantage of the pile-in move, which is what the larger BB mob did.
What followed was a couple of turns of horror at realising I had completely fluffed the activation order - to whit (WFB mode) I used the Relictor first. My opponent then activated the big BB mob and was able to direct nearly all attacks at the Liberator unit (who hadn't attacked yet). Liberators took a pummeling, then struck back and took even more hits as the BB went down - inspiring presence prevented what would (even odds) have been a battleshock failure. But if the Liberators had gone first, the Relictor would probably have got slaughtered.

I agree, it is a *very* simple ruleset. But I don't recall having to think that hard in a WFB game for some years. Activation and initiative are great levellers and there's no simple answer - it's where the skill element of the game will come to be IMO.
The Celestant eventually won it for me, but I have to be clear here - only because I was able to attack purely on his terms.

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Oakenshield
01-07-2015, 17:05
I have been playing Warhammer since the dawn of 4th edition, lining up my Goblins and cardboard Grom to get cut to ribbons by my opponents High Elves. I still playing 3rd Edition occasionally, have an ongoing Realm of Chaos warband game and even dabble in Reaver (Rick Priestley's first ever published rules.) You know what? I can't wait for Age of Sigmar.

I am not a kid looking for "dumb" rules, but you know what? I am looking to actually be able to get my figures on the table and play a damn game. WFB has got to be such a horrible, unweildly beast I see people standing in their GW store for HOURS arguing, fussing, shifting big lumps of figures and then maybe one of them having fun in the end. Everyone talks about "running" this and "mini-maxing" that, it just feels like so much of the fun has been sucked out by tournament lists and 2000pt pitched battles.

No point values is really no problem with me, I have played historicals for long enough to know you don't need them at all. "But you can field 150 cannons" - Yes you can, but what a sad individual you must be to want to have that amount of plastic in order to win one game before people start avoiding you.

Maybe I am the target audience? I want to get my figures, paint them, get them oon the board, push them around and make stupid noises and just chuck some dice.

That isn't for everyone, this is just my opinion, but I am going to be at Warhammer World on the 11th and I can't wait to just PLAY.

So yeah, it probably is a threat to WFB, either people will embrace it or move on to "unofficial 8th rules". Either is good as long as people keep playing.

Gorsameth
01-07-2015, 17:10
With the rules leaked what do you think about this :

- Are AoS and WFB in the same category ?
- Are we gonna see AoS in tournament competitions ?
AoS is a threat to nobody because there is no workable game lol

hobojebus
01-07-2015, 17:19
There are no points value so there can be no true balance, that's fine against friends but not for pick up games.

MiyamatoMusashi
01-07-2015, 17:23
No point values is really no problem with me, I have played historicals for long enough to know you don't need them at all. "But you can field 150 cannons" - Yes you can, but what a sad individual you must be to want to have that amount of plastic in order to win one game before people start avoiding you.

Yet again, people use the extreme examples to show the absurdity of it. The problem still exists even without deliberately trying to break it.

In a historical game, you have a guideline as to what to put into an army - from history. A couple of cannons, a few units of cavalry, half a dozen units of infantry - it'll work. Even more to the point, if my opponent does something similar, we can have a decent game. Might not be "perfectly balanced" but all the troops on the table are basically humans so it can't go far wrong.

In a fantasy game, how many Sigmarine Terminators should I take if I take ten normal Sigmarines? No idea, and no history to guide me. If I take 20 Sigmarine Terminators, 50 normal Sigmarines and 10 of the flying guys, how many Goblins, Elves or Dragons should my opponent take for us to have an interesting game? Not got a bloody clue, and if we get it wrong, chances are we'll get it very wrong, because the difference between Dragons and Goblins are much more than the difference between two humans. Yet again - this is not trying to break the game or act like a dick. This is just trying to play the game without it becoming a horribly one-sided waste of time.

dwarfhold13
01-07-2015, 17:30
The only thing I can't wrap my head around is why they wouldn't have just put out a new game instead of calling this 9th edition. I don't need to play a game to understand that it's a completely different thing. The figures aren't even the same scale! Yes, I am a veteran player/collector, and yes, I hate what GW is doing. The only sense it makes is where it's abundantly clear that GW is out to sell figures to a younger audience. Unfortunately, they are still too expensive, and have now dumbed points down enough to match their companies mission statement, which is to simply be a figure company. This isn't a game, it's simply a ridiculous reason to buy their figures. On top of that, the push to appeal to the 40K side is coincident with the push to get the already existing customer base to buy more product.

hobojebus
01-07-2015, 18:02
Well they can't get new people in when the cost of entry is so high so all that's left is cannibalizing 40k players, which is ironic given they stopped specialist games for doing exactly that.

Mr_Foulscumm
01-07-2015, 18:16
I think they just killed Fantasy completely.

Or they just gave WFB to Mantic. :D

Mr_Foulscumm
01-07-2015, 18:24
WHFB is gone as a GW supported game.

Age of Sigmar is a completely different game in every way.


WHFB doesn't need "threats", it's already been killed by the company that actually produces it.

Just like Blood Bowl, Epic:Armageddon and Battlefleet Gothic then?

Oh wait! They're not actually dead, and have a number of miniature companies actually supplying new minis for them. This whole idea about GW owning Warhammer, 40k etc. is in reality an illusion. We all have a say in how we chose to spend our hobby time.

I'm currently working on 3 new epic armies and have convinced a couple of friends to start up some new Gothic fleets.

I don't see why WFB wouldn't go the same direction. There are already companies that make proxies for most of the Fantasy ranges, so that part is covered. As for what edition of WFB you play, well there's plenty to choose from, talk it out with your gaming group.

That's my take on it anyway.

GrandmasterWang
01-07-2015, 18:57
The only thing I can't wrap my head around is why they wouldn't have just put out a new game instead of calling this 9th edition. I don't need to play a game to understand that it's a completely different thing. The figures aren't even the same scale! Yes, I am a veteran player/collector, and yes, I hate what GW is doing. The only sense it makes is where it's abundantly clear that GW is out to sell figures to a younger audience. Unfortunately, they are still too expensive, and have now dumbed points down enough to match their companies mission statement, which is to simply be a figure company. This isn't a game, it's simply a ridiculous reason to buy their figures. On top of that, the push to appeal to the 40K side is coincident with the push to get the already existing customer base to buy more product.

They have never called Age of Sigmar 9th Edition. That is something that fans have been doing.

Age of Sigmar IS a new game, GW is just unfortunately giving 8th Edition of WFB the boot to make way for WAOS 1st (and probably final) Edition.

I'd much rather GW went the 'three pillars' route that Nintendo attempted with the pillars being W40k, WFB and WAOS rather than canning the WFB lore to make way for a likely inferior product.


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AngryAngel
01-07-2015, 18:59
GW didn't kill WFB - players did with their wallets - sooner everyone gets this sooner the whine will stop.

I know, we didn't just give them all our money when they charged a mint for units, it is all our fault.


But GW set the prices, so ...

Shh, don't use reason.


Are you sure you don't work for GW? The sooner GW understands that their customers are under no obligation to buy their stuff just because they sell it, the sooner they will turn around their poor financial reports.

The failure of a product is not the fault of consumers for not buying it, it's the fault of the company for not marketing the right product, that's kind of how the free market works.

Exactly this, the failure of their product has more to do with changing lifestyles, i.e they keep trying to sell to kids. Guess what GW, you've lost the kids, in this I want it now world, video games, technology offer much more to the kids, then model gaming. That market won't ever keep them afloat and their current customer base they fragment and such drastic change to dumbhammer isn't going to help in that regard, with those current customers. People voice their concern, with the wallet. Even 40k has shown decline, it is simply corporate arrogance to not add it up, their design is flawed and dumbing down things, hoping people just want to push models around I don't think is going to help, however we will see. Point is, the models will still end up, too expensive to draw in the kids they seem to believe are waiting in the wings.


The failure of a product can be fault of many things. Some of them are marketing, prices or target group shrinkig. Maybe - just maybe - GW was more interested into draging new kids in who in 10 years will be as invested in AoS as we were and will dish out much cash on it ? You cannot drag kid in with complex rules and limitations.

Seriously AoS only sounds weird if you see it from perspective of a long time veteran - people of value can shift their views to see all aspects of the problem. All I'm saying is that I understand GW and I know there were many factors that influenced them.

That is fine, if that market really wants what they have to offer. I believe they are catering to an ever decreasing market, for even if those kids yearned for a minis game, not many of them yearn to make and paint their armies, that I have seen. Of those, most seem to enjoy the sci fi more then the fantasy, hence, back to 40k. I never thought I'd see the day 40k became the advanced system. Their focus perhaps, is mistaken.


There are a lot of guys here excited about AoS. The thing that they have in common is that they are either

* already playing WHFB but only play with their friends (not in public, never in events)
* don't play WHFB but play WM/H

Pretty much 99% of our player base that enjoys fantasy (pre AoS) hates the idea.

So yeah its a marketing thing to get new people to buy fantasy models that weren't really buying before. I get that.

I guess we'll see what happens. I have this odd feeling we'll see like what happened to DnD when they revamped the system too much. By itself, the system wasn't bad, and worked for what they tried to do, but it didn't feel like DnD. This may end up the same way though less of a solid system. Where it will be the same is too much change, piggybacked on to a system that will lead fans to outrage, and perhaps another company picking up the slack, Mantic with KoW perhaps. Where as on its own AoS might have been ok, but with it killing something people did enjoy, you will be losing some of them and perhaps picking the bare minimum of new blood. I don't know however, when its even more simple then 40k, that troubles me.


The rules are free. Try a few proxy games. Give it a proper go. If you still think it's stupid, at least you're then talking from a position of experience rather than assumption.

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Fair enough, but some things you can tell are meh before you try them.


There are no points value so there can be no true balance, that's fine against friends but not for pick up games.

It is simply the ultimate unbound, fantasy has reached the next level of evolution, it's ultimate form.


The only thing I can't wrap my head around is why they wouldn't have just put out a new game instead of calling this 9th edition. I don't need to play a game to understand that it's a completely different thing. The figures aren't even the same scale! Yes, I am a veteran player/collector, and yes, I hate what GW is doing. The only sense it makes is where it's abundantly clear that GW is out to sell figures to a younger audience. Unfortunately, they are still too expensive, and have now dumbed points down enough to match their companies mission statement, which is to simply be a figure company. This isn't a game, it's simply a ridiculous reason to buy their figures. On top of that, the push to appeal to the 40K side is coincident with the push to get the already existing customer base to buy more product.

True



Or they just gave WFB to Mantic. :D

If they did, it would exactly lead to what happened with DnD.

hobojebus
01-07-2015, 19:02
I wish i could upvote you angry :D

roperpg
01-07-2015, 19:45
Simple situation:
Other than (possibly)some optional scenarios coming out that specify something like 'All Warscrolls must be Order/Stormcast' PP-stylw tier lists or similar, we are left with a system where the internal mechanics counteract some army mismatch issues, but no other balancing system... Or do we?
"The most important rule".
Your opponent starts pulling out dragons, warmachines and greater Daemons. You enquire as to whether he has any actual infantry. He says no.
At this point your response is either " This is going to be messy!" or "Sorry old chum, not my bag, thanks anyway".

My point is - and I'm aware that the tournament mentality can't even begin to understand this - the policing at extremes is the responsibility of the players.
Even in WFB I've seen games where by turn 3 - using the precious points system - a player has been soundly whupped, but knows they just have to go through the motions for the rest of the game. They aren't enjoying it.
Why would it be so difficult to just say " no thanks" and find someone else who shares your idea of a fun game?
I know that I'll get ridiculed for suggesting this, but if you need the protection of a points system for pick-up games with friends or club members or whatever, why do you bother playing at all?

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

Mr_Foulscumm
01-07-2015, 19:51
Simple situation:
Other than (possibly)some optional scenarios coming out that specify something like 'All Warscrolls must be Order/Stormcast' PP-stylw tier lists or similar, we are left with a system where the internal mechanics counteract some army mismatch issues, but no other balancing system... Or do we?
"The most important rule".
Your opponent starts pulling out dragons, warmachines and greater Daemons. You enquire as to whether he has any actual infantry. He says no.
At this point your response is either " This is going to be messy!" or "Sorry old chum, not my bag, thanks anyway".

My point is - and I'm aware that the tournament mentality can't even begin to understand this - the policing at extremes is the responsibility of the players.
Even in WFB I've seen games where by turn 3 - using the precious points system - a player has been soundly whupped, but knows they just have to go through the motions for the rest of the game. They aren't enjoying it.
Why would it be so difficult to just say " no thanks" and find someone else who shares your idea of a fun game?
I know that I'll get ridiculed for suggesting this, but if you need the protection of a points system for pick-up games with friends or club members or whatever, why do you bother playing at all?

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

Technically, AoS does have a system for balancing armies. It's just somewhat unorthodox (unless you enjoy Malifaux). You keep placing Warscrolls on the table one after one until one of the players says that's it.

So all of the examples of 200 individual archers just owning everyone isn't gonna happen. If you place 1 archer on the board, I'll place a Dragon on the board and say "Done", now we play. What person in his right mind would sit there and let his opponent place Warscroll after Warscroll into play like that?

I still think the game sounds boring. But I can see there is some kind thought behind the balancing of the game after all.

Tae
01-07-2015, 19:53
Technically, AoS does have a system for balancing armies. It's just somewhat unorthodox (unless you enjoy Malifaux). You keep placing Warscrolls on the table one after one until one of the players says that's it.

So all of the examples of 200 individual archers just owning everyone isn't gonna happen. If you place 1 archer on the board, I'll place a Dragon on the board and say "Done", now we play. What person in his right mind would sit there and let his opponent place Warscroll after Warscroll into play like that?

I still think the game sounds boring. But I can see there is some kind thought behind the balancing of the game after all.

Not quite. It says you can set up until you're done but your opponent can continue until he has no more scrolls or no more space.

Avian
01-07-2015, 19:54
Technically, AoS does have a system for balancing armies. It's just somewhat unorthodox (unless you enjoy Malifaux). You keep placing Warscrolls on the table one after one until one of the players says that's it.

So all of the examples of 200 individual archers just owning everyone isn't gonna happen. If you place 1 archer on the board, I'll place a Dragon on the board and say "Done", now we play. What person in his right mind would sit there and let his opponent place Warscroll after Warscroll into play like that?

I still think the game sounds boring. But I can see there is some kind thought behind the balancing of the game after all.

That's not actually how the game works. Once one player is done, the other keeps going until he feels done too.

Mr_Foulscumm
01-07-2015, 19:55
Not quite. It says you can set up until you're done but your opponent can continue until he has no more scrolls or no more space.

You're right. I just re read that part.

I really wanted this to make sense. :(

edit: It would actually have added an interesting dynamic to the game. And helped with balance at the same time (somewhat). If only I wasn't completely wrong about it :(

Gorsameth
01-07-2015, 20:19
There are no points value so there can be no true balance, that's fine against friends but not for pick up games.
It doesnt work for friends either.

I bring. A demonprince, a unit of 3 Bloodcrushers and 3x8 Warrior of Chaos.
You have 0 idea what you can place against this to have a roughly balanced game without resorting it (roughly) similar models.

AngryAngel
01-07-2015, 20:22
I wish i could upvote you angry :D

I wish you could as well, but then I'd get so many down votes as well. :p


Simple situation:
Other than (possibly)some optional scenarios coming out that specify something like 'All Warscrolls must be Order/Stormcast' PP-stylw tier lists or similar, we are left with a system where the internal mechanics counteract some army mismatch issues, but no other balancing system... Or do we?
"The most important rule".
Your opponent starts pulling out dragons, warmachines and greater Daemons. You enquire as to whether he has any actual infantry. He says no.
At this point your response is either " This is going to be messy!" or "Sorry old chum, not my bag, thanks anyway".

My point is - and I'm aware that the tournament mentality can't even begin to understand this - the policing at extremes is the responsibility of the players.
Even in WFB I've seen games where by turn 3 - using the precious points system - a player has been soundly whupped, but knows they just have to go through the motions for the rest of the game. They aren't enjoying it.
Why would it be so difficult to just say " no thanks" and find someone else who shares your idea of a fun game?
I know that I'll get ridiculed for suggesting this, but if you need the protection of a points system for pick-up games with friends or club members or whatever, why do you bother playing at all?

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

?? You wouldn't need all these things, perhaps, with old friends or gaming club friends. Let us assume however, that when people say pick up game, they mean at a store, or group location where everyone is not all on the same page, it is for these things people would like some form of points system. As you could even plan out games with friends and club mates, for pick up games your at the mercy of who you run into. This system sounds like chaos incarnate, soooo fluffy.



You're right. I just re read that part.

I really wanted this to make sense. :(

edit: It would actually have added an interesting dynamic to the game. And helped with balance at the same time (somewhat). If only I wasn't completely wrong about it :(

You want sense ?...THIS...IS...AGE OF SIGMAR !!!! :: Kicks him into GW store to buy the models now !! ::

HelloKitty
01-07-2015, 21:03
Allegedly this system without points will work just fine for pickup games. I am supposed to go in and help paint up some of the models and figure out the full ruleset with scrolls to help demo so - I am holding out a little hope.

hobojebus
01-07-2015, 21:23
Allegedly this system without points will work just fine for pickup games. I am supposed to go in and help paint up some of the models and figure out the full ruleset with scrolls to help demo so - I am holding out a little hope.

Hope leads to disappointment.
Disappointment leads to anger.
Anger leads to the dark side.

AngryAngel
01-07-2015, 22:07
Good...Good....let the hate flow through you...for I am afraid Age of sigmar will be quite operational when the kiddies arrive at the store..

GWexpat
01-07-2015, 22:47
GW isn't a miniatures company, they just think they are because they're too stupid to see otherwise. Wargaming will continue its decline. GW torpedoed a money-making, licensable IP in order to buy further into a dying market. They just put good money after bad.

Look at the story of American Greetings for a parallel in a different industry. Dying market and no diversification into different ones. They go public, stock tanks, they buy back stock and continue declining. It's just really, really dumb business. GW is unfortunately completely incompetent, which is why they keep losing money year on year.

Whirlwind
01-07-2015, 23:08
First game we unbalanced intentionally - Liberators + relictor vs. 2 mobs of bloodborn, Sudden Death invoked and Sigmarines because the Relictor ran like hell to stay away from the BB.

2nd game we introduced the Celestant (mounted) plus the Khorne bods gained a flying Sigmarite - sudden death didn't apply, so it was to the death.

At one point the Relictor and Liberators were in combat with both BB mobs. Yes, you have to move toward the closest model but when charging you don't (to our reading) which allows you to fan out to take advantage of the pile-in move, which is what the larger BB mob did.
What followed was a couple of turns of horror at realising I had completely fluffed the activation order - to whit (WFB mode) I used the Relictor first. My opponent then activated the big BB mob and was able to direct nearly all attacks at the Liberator unit (who hadn't attacked yet). Liberators took a pummeling, then struck back and took even more hits as the BB went down - inspiring presence prevented what would (even odds) have been a battleshock failure. But if the Liberators had gone first, the Relictor would probably have got slaughtered.

I agree, it is a *very* simple ruleset. But I don't recall having to think that hard in a WFB game for some years. Activation and initiative are great levellers and there's no simple answer - it's where the skill element of the game will come to be IMO.
The Celestant eventually won it for me, but I have to be clear here - only because I was able to attack purely on his terms.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

thanks for this. Yes my understanding is that can charge in any direction you like as long as you always get within .5" of one model, you don't split your unit and they are always 1" with each other. I was more thinking of the following rounds with pile in moves after units take casualties and how you worked through that. My thoughts are that if you take casualties off carefully you can just leave one model close to a unit which blocks up future pile in moves of your enemy because they than have to move to the nearest model; or secondly if you are engaged on two fronts that are separated that this restricts pile in moves because you can't split the unit?

duffybear1988
01-07-2015, 23:19
Hope leads to disappointment.
Disappointment leads to anger.
Anger leads to the dark side.

You've done well, hobojebus. And now I sense you wish to continue your search for a balanced ruleset.


Good...Good....let the hate flow through you...for I am afraid Age of sigmar will be quite operational when the kiddies arrive at the store..

Patience, my friend. In time, the disillusioned children will seek you out, and when they do, you must bring them before me. GW have grown strong. Only together can we turn them to the Dark Side.

Whirlwind
01-07-2015, 23:28
Good...Good....let the hate flow through you...for I am afraid Age of sigmar will be quite operational when the kiddies arrive at the store..


It's not fair! they promised us they fixed it! It's not our fault!

Just Tony
02-07-2015, 00:38
It's a trap!!!!!!!!!!!

Mr_Foulscumm
02-07-2015, 02:27
GW isn't a miniatures company, they just think they are because they're too stupid to see otherwise. Wargaming will continue its decline. GW torpedoed a money-making, licensable IP in order to buy further into a dying market. They just put good money after bad.

Look at the story of American Greetings for a parallel in a different industry. Dying market and no diversification into different ones. They go public, stock tanks, they buy back stock and continue declining. It's just really, really dumb business. GW is unfortunately completely incompetent, which is why they keep losing money year on year.

Stuff like this make me wonder about people...

GW has already licenced their IP dozens of times through out the years. Hell, in the last couple of years alone we've seen Mordheim, Space Hulk, BFG, Blood bowl, 40K (several different versions) and WFB get computer games licensed. Hell, they even licensed a really terrible Space Marines movie.

But thanks for trolling :)

agurus1
02-07-2015, 06:42
Looks like I'll be converting my Vampire Counts and Skaven to 30k somehow lol

Acephale
02-07-2015, 06:50
GW isn't a miniatures company, they just think they are because they're too stupid to see otherwise. Wargaming will continue its decline. GW torpedoed a money-making, licensable IP in order to buy further into a dying market. They just put good money after bad.

Look at the story of American Greetings for a parallel in a different industry. Dying market and no diversification into different ones. They go public, stock tanks, they buy back stock and continue declining. It's just really, really dumb business. GW is unfortunately completely incompetent, which is why they keep losing money year on year.

Wargaming in general isn't declining. Actually it's a growing market.

It's GW that somehow manages to be in decline while the market they used to dominate grows like never before. Goes to show just how well their "marketing strategy" panned out in the long run.

Thanghul
02-07-2015, 08:12
Stuff like this make me wonder about people...

GW has already licenced their IP dozens of times through out the years. Hell, in the last couple of years alone we've seen Mordheim, Space Hulk, BFG, Blood bowl, 40K (several different versions) and WFB get computer games licensed. Hell, they even licensed a really terrible Space Marines movie.

But thanks for trolling :)

I didn't read it as trolling. A crude analysis but not trolling.

Games Workshop is/was sitting on a fantastic IP with thirty years of history. There is even a game coming out soon based on the Warhammer IP for the PC.

http://www.polygon.com/2015/6/30/8862687/total-war-warhammer-impressions-interview-demo-e3-2015

Then they go and nuke the whole lot for a line that is nowhere near as recognizable. What will Age of Sigmar have that is sellable from an IP perspective. It won't have the humour of Blood Bowl (I assume, could all be a joke for all we know), or the familiar tropes thrown into WFB (a dwarf is a dwarf, no need to tell it any other way). The IP of this new world will not have the value of the old.

There is a reason COKE has looked relatively the same over the years.

jtrowell
02-07-2015, 12:41
You've done well, hobojebus. And now I sense you wish to continue your search for a balanced ruleset.



Patience, my friend. In time, the disillusioned children will seek you out, and when they do, you must bring them before me. GW have grown strong. Only together can we turn them to the Dark Side.

GW, know that the more you tighten your grip, the more players will escape your fingers. :p


http://www.recaption.com/uploads/2916352276bf5ef9a2.jpg

Mr_Foulscumm
02-07-2015, 14:45
I didn't read it as trolling. A crude analysis but not trolling.

Games Workshop is/was sitting on a fantastic IP with thirty years of history. There is even a game coming out soon based on the Warhammer IP for the PC.

http://www.polygon.com/2015/6/30/8862687/total-war-warhammer-impressions-interview-demo-e3-2015

Then they go and nuke the whole lot for a line that is nowhere near as recognizable. What will Age of Sigmar have that is sellable from an IP perspective. It won't have the humour of Blood Bowl (I assume, could all be a joke for all we know), or the familiar tropes thrown into WFB (a dwarf is a dwarf, no need to tell it any other way). The IP of this new world will not have the value of the old.

There is a reason COKE has looked relatively the same over the years.

Yeah thanks for pointing out the WFB game i actually mentioned in my post. :p

Whirlwind
02-07-2015, 23:29
GW, know that the more you tighten your grip, the more players will escape your fingers. :p


http://www.recaption.com/uploads/2916352276bf5ef9a2.jpg

Sir, the possibility of successfully balancing an AoS game is approximately 3,720 to 1.

Just Tony
03-07-2015, 00:30
Never tell me the odds.

MusingWarboss
03-07-2015, 02:32
GW isn't a miniatures company, they just think they are because they're too stupid to see otherwise. Wargaming will continue its decline. GW torpedoed a money-making, licensable IP in order to buy further into a dying market. They just put good money after bad.

Ah, they really are these days though. End Times, the rise of the massive models in 40k and pretty much everything about Age of Sigmar suggests that they're talking the truth. They made it happen because that's they way it's been seriously tipping for a decade or so now. In some ways you can blame Brian Ansell and his crazy idea for a game called "Warhammer" which was designed to sell multiples of old D&D models he had lying around.

In regards to their IP... Well... some would argue that their Warhammer IP was about as original and protectable as any other generic fantasy realm. Sure they added their own twist to it but basically, anyone could and did make models that could be used in their games. People who wanted to make Warhammer branded computer games or write books but were turned down by GW... Did anyway. Because they could. Have a read of this old thread on GWs Originality:
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=397737

So yes, they've changed it because for 30 years they've been trading off of a whole load of borrowed concepts which in turn have been borrowed again and done elsewhere.

I'm not sure what the dying market you're referring to is though? Wargaming is actually doing ok, very well in some cases, whether it be with SF, fantasy, or historical models. Even board gaming is booming these days.

Miniature manufacturers seem to be more abundant now that I ever remember in the past, with a whole plethora of boutique traders to big mass producers. So yeah, both the rules and models sides are doing well.

The only dying market seems to be for people buying GW products and even then, to be honest, I don't think they're doing too badly considering all the negativity.

AngryAngel
03-07-2015, 03:49
Sir, the possibility of successfully balancing an AoS game is approximately 3,720 to 1.


Never tell me the odds.

What.... ? We won't last long against rules abuse of that magnitude.

Philhelm
03-07-2015, 04:08
You've done well, hobojebus. And now I sense you wish to continue your search for a balanced ruleset.

Age of Sigmar is more activity than game, twisted and juvenile.

We'll get additional rules. From a certain point of view.

Boring game anyway.

Grimgor? A god? I know we suffer from delusions from time to time.

jet_palero
03-07-2015, 05:28
Ah, they really are these days though. End Times, the rise of the massive models in 40k and pretty much everything about Age of Sigmar suggests that they're talking the truth. They made it happen because that's they way it's been seriously tipping for a decade or so now. In some ways you can blame Brian Ansell and his crazy idea for a game called "Warhammer" which was designed to sell multiples of old D&D models he had lying around.

In regards to their IP... Well... some would argue that their Warhammer IP was about as original and protectable as any other generic fantasy realm. Sure they added their own twist to it but basically, anyone could and did make models that could be used in their games. People who wanted to make Warhammer branded computer games or write books but were turned down by GW... Did anyway. Because they could. Have a read of this old thread on GWs Originality:
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=397737

So yes, they've changed it because for 30 years they've been trading off of a whole load of borrowed concepts which in turn have been borrowed again and done elsewhere.

I'm not sure what the dying market you're referring to is though? Wargaming is actually doing ok, very well in some cases, whether it be with SF, fantasy, or historical models. Even board gaming is booming these days.

Miniature manufacturers seem to be more abundant now that I ever remember in the past, with a whole plethora of boutique traders to big mass producers. So yeah, both the rules and models sides are doing well.

The only dying market seems to be for people buying GW products and even then, to be honest, I don't think they're doing too badly considering all the negativity.

I just don't understand GW's management. McDonalds doesn't sue other burger joints for making burgers. Taco bell doesn't sue other taco joints. They dominate their markets through other legitimate means, not being law suit happy dingbats. GW got to where they were by having a store to play in, a game people wanted to play, and models we wanted to buy and paint. They should have had confidence in their product to be competitive, or made a better product. Not called their lawyers.

And as to Age of Sigmar. . . "Your rulebooks, you will not need them."

Sir_Turalyon
03-07-2015, 15:06
I didn't read it as trolling. A crude analysis but not trolling.

Games Workshop is/was sitting on a fantastic IP with thirty years of history. There is even a game coming out soon based on the Warhammer IP for the PC.

http://www.polygon.com/2015/6/30/8862687/total-war-warhammer-impressions-interview-demo-e3-2015

Then they go and nuke the whole lot for a line that is nowhere near as recognizable. What will Age of Sigmar have that is sellable from an IP perspective. It won't have the humour of Blood Bowl (I assume, could all be a joke for all we know), or the familiar tropes thrown into WFB (a dwarf is a dwarf, no need to tell it any other way). The IP of this new world will not have the value of the old.

There is a reason COKE has looked relatively the same over the years.

In say five years, when surplus WFB mini disappear from oversaturated Ebay into garbage bins, GW will be in position to launch a "new" rebooted WFB game. They will be able to make it a brand new system, not another redress of 4th edition rules we had for last 20 years, they will be able to change setting and races however their lawyers like. If they did something like that today, there would be outcry that new Warhammer is not Warhammer at all. Give few years for memories to fog and nostalgia tu build, and they'll be able to sell anything to people happy just because "Warhammer is back".

As long as they sit on IP, they can do such things just to build demand.

MusingWarboss
03-07-2015, 15:11
I just don't understand GW's management. McDonalds doesn't sue other burger joints for making burgers. Taco bell doesn't sue other taco joints. They dominate their markets through other legitimate means, not being law suit happy dingbats. GW got to where they were by having a store to play in, a game people wanted to play, and models we wanted to buy and paint. They should have had confidence in their product to be competitive, or made a better product. Not called their lawyers.

And as to Age of Sigmar. . . "Your rulebooks, you will not need them."

I'm reminded of the Eddie Murphy film "Coming to America" here. Essentially what GW did was McDowell's with their own version of Big Mics. Other people came along and did a McRonald's on them with a load of Big MiiiiiCs. And they didn't like it.

So now they've renamed themselves the Burger Queen to make sure that no one else can make burgers.

Except they can. Still.

Gorsameth
03-07-2015, 16:15
I just don't understand GW's management. McDonalds doesn't sue other burger joints for making burgers. Taco bell doesn't sue other taco joints. They dominate their markets through other legitimate means, not being law suit happy dingbats. GW got to where they were by having a store to play in, a game people wanted to play, and models we wanted to buy and paint. They should have had confidence in their product to be competitive, or made a better product. Not called their lawyers.

And as to Age of Sigmar. . . "Your rulebooks, you will not need them."
Exactly. GW should not have problems with other companies making copies of their models. Considering their size no other company in the market should be able to compete with them on a price/quality standpoint because of economics of scale.