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babyberg31
02-07-2015, 03:55
Hi there folks,

I'm genuinely intrigued in this game and I would like to have your point of view on some points regarding the rule set we currently have. Please, refrain yourself to post any *I hate this game because XWZ*. I'm here to get your thoughts and if you wish to debate anything regarding the AoS setting, their is plenty of room in other subjects on Warseer, BOLS, DakkaDakka, etc.

Concerning the outnumber point, do you think that this is relevant all along the game or only at deployment?

And by this I mean to say, can the sudden death possible scenario suddenly switch between players because one loose too many of his warriors?
Or it's only at the start of a game that a player is labelled ''outnumbered''?

IMHO, I think a player is labelled outnumbered at the start of the game and this status never change, no matter the loss. And is no one is labelled outnumbered for a start, it just never comes into play.

So?

Skywave
02-07-2015, 04:37
Under the General rule in the "Battle Begins" section, it state that after deployment is done you nominate your general. Then in the "Sudden Death" rule (still part of the "Battle Begins"), it says that after you nominate your general, you can choose a Sudden Death objective if you are outnumbered.

So yes, you can take a Sudden Death objective at the start of the game, but it doesn't trigger during the game.

Rathkarn
04-07-2015, 02:17
Yep. I would read it as Battle Begins stage too. For example "Sieze Ground" is a win if you are holding a nominated piece of terrain by the end of turn 4. I feel that if you were able to choose this say on turn 4 itself it makes it difficult for the opponent to react imho.

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Neisseria337
04-07-2015, 15:48
Hi all, first post for me on Warseer. I'm just adding to this thread with another quick question: how do people interpret the rules for summoning in an army such as VCs where the summon spells are on the warscrolls? In particular I'm thinking of the large monsters such as Terrorgheists which you might (god forbid!) only have a single model of, but it also applies to units of zombies etc.

The rules say we must have warscrolls for the models we want to use, but not specifically that we must have a unit in play for every warscroll we wish to use. Therefore, can we summon something we have the miniature for in our collection but isn't yet part of the battle? Or due to the unit deployment rules, do we need to have the model as part of our starting army, either on the battlefield (in which case requiring several identical models to summon later, which is crazy for things like Terrorgheists, although very "GW" in nature) or otherwise in reserve? I think this is likely the case, but the paragraph describing reserves is itself a little ambiguous to me - can we stop short of placing a model by choice (rather than due to "running out of space") if we intend to summon it later? Or by not placing it while we still have space, are we declaring that we don't wish it to fight in the game at all? (The latter seems to be the way it's worded.)

It kind of ruins the narrative drama of summoning awesome creatures mid-game if you already have duplicates of them on the table... Thought it might be useful to get everyone's thoughts.

Nicreap
04-07-2015, 16:12
The way it sounds you summon it out of thin air, it doesn't say you have to have it in reserves, although you would nneed the model to put in the table, and the war scroll that states death wizards know how to sing this monster

Neisseria337
04-07-2015, 17:00
Wow, if that's what they intended, it's insane if you want to attempt any kind of game balance for the sake of sportsmanship/friendships. I mean as an oldschool VC player trying to get in a small skirmish game, it seems you'd basically have to deliberately hold back your entire model collection and just ignore the summoning rules if you wanted your opponent to have a fair game. Then again the whole ruleset seems to be set out like that in one way or another.

SanDiegoSurrealist
04-07-2015, 21:06
But your opponent can do it as well, example:You summon Terrorgeist, Chaos player summons bloodthirster to counter, that is were you get the ballance.

Mr_Rose
04-07-2015, 23:34
Yeah, "balance", that's definitely what it it is…

Tae
05-07-2015, 00:11
Wow, if that's what they intended, it's insane if you want to attempt any kind of game balance for the sake of sportsmanship/friendships. I mean as an oldschool VC player trying to get in a small skirmish game, it seems you'd basically have to deliberately hold back your entire model collection and just ignore the summoning rules if you wanted your opponent to have a fair game. Then again the whole ruleset seems to be set out like that in one way or another.

Don't forget yah summoned models count differently at the end game stage for calculating whose has lost most models as a percentage, as they count against your models lost but not starting army size.

So if your starting army is Nagash and he raises 50 zombies, all of whom are dead by the end, then you'll be on 5000% army destroyed. So yeah, good luck winning with that percentage.

hdctambien
05-07-2015, 01:34
Don't forget yah summoned models count differently at the end game stage for calculating whose has lost most models as a percentage, as they count against your models lost but not starting army size.

So if your starting army is Nagash and he raises 50 zombies, all of whom are dead by the end, then you'll be on 5000% army destroyed. So yeah, good luck winning with that percentage.

If your starting army is just Nagash, then you probably have a Sudden Death condition you're attempting to fulfill so you don't care how much of your army gets destroyed.

Tae
05-07-2015, 11:22
If your starting army is just Nagash, then you probably have a Sudden Death condition you're attempting to fulfill so you don't care how much of your army gets destroyed.

True, but in a 1 vs 1 fight summoning is most definitely not a good idea :p

Mike3791
05-07-2015, 17:12
Does anyone know what the asterik means in a warscroll characteristic value?

forseer of fates
05-07-2015, 17:16
So a unit of 40+ state troops using the formation at the back of the empire get +4 to hit, does this mean they auto hit? I assume so with the current rules being so none existent.

TheFang
05-07-2015, 17:32
Does anyone know what the asterik means in a warscroll characteristic value?

As far as I can see it's not explicitly stated anywhere but it seems to mean refer to the table on the Warscroll where the characteristics depend on the wounds remaining.

Mike3791
05-07-2015, 17:44
So a unit of 40+ state troops using the formation at the back of the empire get +4 to hit, does this mean they auto hit? I assume so with the current rules being so none existent.

Well for a house rules I'd personally say that it can't be better than 2+. Either way, at least State Troops don't suck anymore :D

forseer of fates
06-07-2015, 00:18
Well considering a horde would get 30 attacks, now its basically the front rank ish. Terrible.

Kisanis
10-07-2015, 03:21
On choosing which warscrolls to bring to a fight - is there anything that states the order/chaos/destruction/death alliances

There is not reason for or against (other than I can) for taking Skaven and High Elves together?

Avian
10-07-2015, 06:44
You can take whatever you want in whatever numbers and combination you want.

Ayin
10-07-2015, 06:56
Wow, if that's what they intended, it's insane if you want to attempt any kind of game balance for the sake of sportsmanship/friendships. I mean as an oldschool VC player trying to get in a small skirmish game, it seems you'd basically have to deliberately hold back your entire model collection and just ignore the summoning rules if you wanted your opponent to have a fair game. Then again the whole ruleset seems to be set out like that in one way or another.

GW already started trying to get players used to this in the End Times (along with many other ideas like combined forces and larger scale infantry) with summoning. Lore of Undeath was in the first book and allowed the system to summon monsters, cavalry, and characters. I feel that Khaine magic eventually allowed the same thing (summoning sprits of ancient warriors back).

What's really insane is that people seem to really, really believe that this is NOT the case. That somehow this particular part of AoS is severely limited when the rest of the game is wide open. When the game allows you to place anything you want, from any faction or combination of factions, in any number of units and to any max unit size, against your opponent regardless of the size of their force, that for some reasoning, Summoning and Summoning alone should 'obviously' be tightly controlled. It's mind blowing.

Malkier1984
10-07-2015, 10:34
Hi all, first post for me on Warseer. I'm just adding to this thread with another quick question: how do people interpret the rules for summoning in an army such as VCs where the summon spells are on the warscrolls? In particular I'm thinking of the large monsters such as Terrorgheists which you might (god forbid!) only have a single model of, but it also applies to units of zombies etc.

The rules say we must have warscrolls for the models we want to use, but not specifically that we must have a unit in play for every warscroll we wish to use. Therefore, can we summon something we have the miniature for in our collection but isn't yet part of the battle? Or due to the unit deployment rules, do we need to have the model as part of our starting army, either on the battlefield (in which case requiring several identical models to summon later, which is crazy for things like Terrorgheists, although very "GW" in nature) or otherwise in reserve? I think this is likely the case, but the paragraph describing reserves is itself a little ambiguous to me - can we stop short of placing a model by choice (rather than due to "running out of space") if we intend to summon it later? Or by not placing it while we still have space, are we declaring that we don't wish it to fight in the game at all? (The latter seems to be the way it's worded.)

It kind of ruins the narrative drama of summoning awesome creatures mid-game if you already have duplicates of them on the table... Thought it might be useful to get everyone's thoughts.

This actually came up last night in conversation at my local GW, both myself and another staff member had interpreted the rule as, if Zombies are on the table, your spellcaster(s) know Summon Zombie, someone else pointed out that it doesn't state that you need the models starting to know the spells, so you technically know all the relevant summon ones for your Amry/Race type.

So, as with most things with AoS at the moment it is down to you to agree with your opponent how you are ruling it:
1) Spell casters only know the summons for units on the table, as these represent the spells they know
2) Spell casters know all the summons, representing a larger magical repertoire and can summon what you like as long as you have a model to represent it.

This did make me raise a question though, as there are no longer any minimum base sizes etc to dtermine, what size/shape things should be, what stops me summoning Demon Princes/Greater Demons etc and representing them with a Gor for example?

Avian
10-07-2015, 10:43
1) Spell casters only know the summons for units on the table, as these represent the spells they know

By that reasoning, you'd need to have Kroq-gar on Carnosaur already on the table in order to cast the spell that summons Kroq-gar on Carnosaur.

Seems impractical.

Kisanis
10-07-2015, 12:56
I think this rule is in there to force wysiwyg.

You cant plonk down a bunch of state troops and call them zombies kind of thing...

Its saying you have to physically have the models on hand and maybe set aside (so your opponent knows)

That way you can plonk a necromancer down and your opponent can look and see how much he can summon, and act accordingly.

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Sloordrigg
10-07-2015, 13:55
What's really insane is that people seem to really, really believe that this is NOT the case. That somehow this particular part of AoS is severely limited when the rest of the game is wide open. When the game allows you to place anything you want, from any faction or combination of factions, in any number of units and to any max unit size, against your opponent regardless of the size of their force, that for some reasoning, Summoning and Summoning alone should 'obviously' be tightly controlled. It's mind blowing.

I know! I can't get my head around it, either!

As to whether you need to have the models on the table already (which I think is NOT the case): Say you're fielding Skaven against Daemons. As the Warlock Engineer (for example, he's not the only one) has the keywords 'Chaos' and 'Wizard', he's able to summon daemons. You as the Skaven player have (rather unsurprisingly) not deployed any daemons. But your opponent has. So, can the Engineer now summon these daemons? They're on the table aren't they? And the rules for the summoning spell explicitly say "Chaos Wizards know the Summon..."
Personally, my take on it is that any spellcaster with the corresponding keywords actually knows EVERY SINGLE SUMMONING SPELL for those keywords.

Nakitou
15-07-2015, 06:31
Hi all, i have a question about some rules in age of sigmar Mystic Shield says, has a casting value of 6. If successfully cast, pick the caster, or a friendly unit within 18" of the caster and which is visible to them. You can add 1 to all save rolls for the unit you pick until the start of your next hero phase. Does this bonus affect abilities like Bloodshield or Wtiness of destiny? and what would happen to the bonus will it be spread to other units since bloodshield is granted to other units?

Nakitou
15-07-2015, 06:39
I say it does since bloodshield is the source of that save but my friends that i play with says it doesnt, they say it can be affected but you have to cast it to the target you want to get the bonus on

mhsellwood
15-07-2015, 06:47
Nakitou, Mystic Shield gives you a +1 on your save roll. You only make a save roll when an attack hits and wounds, and this is the roll modified. You then inflict damage and allocate the damage suffered to the models in your unit as you see fit (with the proviso that you once you start applying wounds to a model you must continue until the model is dead or there is no more damage to apply).

Some abilities enable you to ignore a wound or mortal wound inflicted. Once you have got to the end of the assign damage process for every point of damage applied, you then roll to ignore wounds inflicted. A 4+ roll for Witness to Destiny to ignore the wound inflicted. RAW it would appear to be that you actually assign the damage, and then make the save on a model by model basis - I would be happy to just roll to ignore wounds and then assign non ignored wounds.

Not sure on the rules for Bloodshield, but again if it is some method of ignoring wounds, they are not 'save' rolls so would not benefit from Mystic Shield.

Nakitou
15-07-2015, 06:52
well i was thinking that because you know that in 8th edition the bloodshield was a ward save and it was consider a save roll, and in Age of Sigmar doesnt say if those rolls are consider as a save roll

Nakitou
15-07-2015, 06:56
and why would it say all save rolls since now there is only one roll and that would be armor save?

Nakitou
15-07-2015, 06:58
instead of saying all save rolls why doesnt it says to armor save as the lore of metal use to do

DVeight
15-07-2015, 07:06
Well for a house rules I'd personally say that it can't be better than 2+. Either way, at least State Troops don't suck anymore :D

This is endemic of the 'old school' of thinking that a result of one always misses. The four page rules say nothing about that. If GW are heading down the road of narrative/scenario based gaming then I can see the thinking here. Just use the Swiss Pike as a comparison. They are a famous unit of their efficacy as a group and the reach of the weapon. You would be a fool to argue that they can somehow miss you if you charged into them. I believe they are applying this principle.

mhsellwood
15-07-2015, 07:34
instead of saying all save rolls why doesnt it says to armor save as the lore of metal use to do

Because there is no armour save - there is only the save statistic. There are no more ward saves, no more regeneration saves, no armour saves, just the save roll, which is only ever based off your save stat. So, Witness to Destiny does not give you a ward save as this concept no longer exists in the rules as written. Instead it permits you to ignore wounds suffered. Who has the Blood Shield ability? What is the exact wording of it?

splash
23-07-2015, 04:19
By that reasoning, you'd need to have Kroq-gar on Carnosaur already on the table in order to cast the spell that summons Kroq-gar on Carnosaur.

Seems impractical.

Yes, you would, and that's very practical. The summon spells (most that I've seen--and ignoring a Chaos Lord's ability to "summon" slaves to darkness units as a command ability) are on the warscrolls of the unit that can be summoned by the spell, not on the warscrolls of the casters doing the summoning. Therefore, the player doesn't have access to the spell unless they take a warscroll with the spell on it. You can't just place a necromancer all by himself and then start summoning units, as he doesn't have that spell on his warscroll. If you place a unit of zombies, they bring that spell with him. That, along with countering the spell AND just killing off the summoner, helps to mitigate the summoning ability, albeit somewhat. Of course, GW may come out and say something completely different, and it won't jive with what they've done with those summon spells--but it actually wouldn't surprise me.

Avian
23-07-2015, 08:33
Yes, you would, and that's very practical. The summon spells (most that I've seen--and ignoring a Chaos Lord's ability to "summon" slaves to darkness units as a command ability) are on the warscrolls of the unit that can be summoned by the spell, not on the warscrolls of the casters doing the summoning. Therefore, the player doesn't have access to the spell unless they take a warscroll with the spell on it.

Well, naturally, if a player is intending to summon Kroq-gar, then he'd bring his warscroll to the game along with the model. Otherwise you wouldn't know which rules he had once you summoned him.

I think people are confusing AoS army selection with 8th edition army selection. You can bring whatever you want to a game, along with all the necessary warscrolls. That is your army, and then you deploy however much of it as you want. You are not limited to writing down beforehand what is in your list and what isn't.

splash
23-07-2015, 15:00
Well, naturally, if a player is intending to summon Kroq-gar, then he'd bring his warscroll to the game along with the model. Otherwise you wouldn't know which rules he had once you summoned him.

Right, have it on the board to have his summoning spell available, then summon another Kroq-gar (or the same one once he's been destroyed) using a caster and that spell.

ScruffMan
24-07-2015, 15:16
Can abilities be used on the hero model itself if the rules say "pick one friendly unit with the x keyword that is within 12" of this model". Specifically I am thinking of the Bloodstoker and his Whipped to Fury ability. As with many queries the rules seem to be just slightly poorly written here.

jaceimba
24-07-2015, 16:11
Can abilities be used on the hero model itself if the rules say "pick one friendly unit with the x keyword that is within 12" of this model". Specifically I am thinking of the Bloodstoker and his Whipped to Fury ability. As with many queries the rules seem to be just slightly poorly written here.

I would say no. Similar abilities and command abilities specifically mention 'this model' if the model itself can also be the target of the ability.

Charistoph
24-07-2015, 16:58
I would say no. Similar abilities and command abilities specifically mention 'this model' if the model itself can also be the target of the ability.

And yet, the Hero is within X" of this model. Unless it specifies a different model, the Hero still qualifies. Note, that some of them would be pointless, like stopping BattleShock Tests.