PDA

View Full Version : Shooting attacks in the AoS



Tzen
03-07-2015, 22:41
Hello forumites!

I have a pretty straight forward question.

Can you shoot your missile weapons int he shooting phase even if you are in close combat?

I cannot find it in any of the rules which says you cannot. Yes, I do have the rules, and no I cannot find anywhere where it says you can't. I just want to get people's thoughts on it. Muse over this tomorrow if you are waiting on the rules right now.

forseer of fates
03-07-2015, 23:36
The Aos erreta will be bigger than the rules me thinks:p

Overtninja
04-07-2015, 10:48
It would appear that you could, indeed, shoot with a unit that is 'in combat' with another unit, though it wouldn't really seem to matter much since there's no such thing as being 'locked' in combat. additionally, you can shoot at any unit you want, even one that just piled into one of your own units recently, or one you charged earlier that is still fighting with another unit.

to be frank, given the stats of various ranged units, any ranged unit that is in melee range with another unit is probably going to get chopped up in short order - to be frank i'd be surprised if they lasted very long at all in melee combat. if they do, it's not actually absurd to think that they'd take pot shots that close to their opponents - this isn't a massed-battle game, there are no rules about 'oop can't fire at that dragon there are peasants fighting it in melee' or anything. each model can do what it does when it can do it - though for a ranged unit that shot is probably the last arrow or bolt or bullet or sling it ever looses, because swords to the face are imminent.

i see no real issue with it, and it's characterful - the last heroic effort of a likely soon-to-be-dead model, potentially into the face of their would-be killer.

SanDiegoSurrealist
04-07-2015, 13:13
also appears you can shoot into combat

Dwane Diblie
04-07-2015, 15:26
I had a 3 Mounted Yeomen go toe to toe with 5 Swordmasters today. Even with their ability to knock missile attacks out of the air, I still beat them down. Also his 10 Sea Guard massecured my 5 Knight Errents for the same reason. More than makes up for the no charge reactions.

mistercactus
06-07-2015, 12:13
That's what we figured when we played yesterday. We were really hoping that we'd missed something and were doing it wrong. Ranged troops (particularly dwarfs) were ridiculously strong....

Avian
06-07-2015, 12:21
I suspect this was done because it allows Space Marines to shoot their bolt pistols in combat alongside hitting people with their chainswords.
(I will eat my hat if 40K doesn't get the AoS ruleset soonish.)

Taker of skulls
06-07-2015, 13:46
Ellyrian Reavers

They have 2 wounds each, 5+ save and a movement of 14"

They have Bows that can shoot 2 shots standard, but their special rule allows them to shoot 3 times if no enemy is within 3" (and an enemy should never be that close).

They hit on 4+ and wound on 4+.

And they they can make an additional 2D6 move before or after they shoot (as long as no emeny within 3" before they move, and cannot end their move within 3" of an enemy.

So a unit of 10 can move 14" towards you, unload 30 arrows and then flee 2D6. Hitting on 4+ and Wounding on 4+.

Also if you have a Prince on Horse within 16" of them during the Hero Phase (before all the runing and shooting they can re-roll their to hit rolls for that trun with his Might of the Asur command ability...... But that would be cheesy.

ToS

D6damage
06-07-2015, 14:55
[Apologies for the whinging answer to a straight-forward question]

I'm sorry to say the rules do indeed let you shoot, then charge, then fight, and then shoot some more while fighting. And what's more, you can shoot at anyone you like, not just the people you're fighting, even if your target is in combat.

My reaper bolt thrower was attacked by a bunch of orcs and his general. In old Warhammer that would have been game over for the bolt thrower. And quite rightly. That's what artillery does - it fires from the back and hopes no one gets close enough to fight it in combat.

Because I can choose which models take wounds, I chose the machine itself to lose wounds (it has 4). In that way, the bolt thrower lasted two or three turns, in which it destroyed one unit half a mile away and then shot the general to pieces. And all this while the two lowly crew men were fighting with their swords.

Of all the funny rules and goofiness in AoS, this was the single most annoying rule because it destroyed my suspension of disbelief. I just couldn't visualise the crew doing that in real life (or my crossbowmen doing the same thing to all the orcs they were fighting). It was THE thing that made me and my opponent feel disillusioned with AoS. The silly-fun and simplicity I can handle - but for god's sake allow me to suspend my disbelief.

I think Avian is absolutely right. I can imagine the rule working perfectly well if you're assaulting a tank, or if your troops are carrying handguns. But the thought of a longbow man drawing back his massive bow to fire at someone standing right in front him, who also happens to be attacking him (and then quickly drawing his sword to stab him before pulling back another shot) is literally unimaginable.

Bede19025
06-07-2015, 16:15
I can rationalize a bowman being able to shoot and fight in the same turn. I agree that it's more difficult to rationalize an artillery crew fighting for its life while at the same time operating the piece. The only thing I can think is that perhaps the crew figures don't represent all the crew, so that some are fighitng while others are operating the balista.

Or you could just house rule it and say artillery can fight or shoot, but not both. :)

KurganFr
06-07-2015, 22:42
But the thought of a longbow man drawing back his massive bow to fire at someone standing right in front him, who also happens to be attacking him (and then quickly drawing his sword to stab him before pulling back another shot) is literally unimaginable.

Legolas? [emoji6]

Ender Shadowkin
07-07-2015, 01:39
other war scrolls mention shooting into combat... so yeah. That's what they wanted.

I think it's mainly to end the game faster, clean up those boring over simplified combats ...

Tzar Boris
07-07-2015, 03:48
[Apologies for the whinging answer to a straight-forward question]

I'm sorry to say the rules do indeed let you shoot, then charge, then fight, and then shoot some more while fighting.

You cannot shoot whilst in combat. Unless specifically mentioned on your Warscroll.

4th page. Second Paragraph.
"Missile weapons can be used in the shooting phase, and melee weapons can be used in the combat phase."

Tichey
07-07-2015, 04:29
You cannot shoot whilst in combat. Unless specifically mentioned on your Warscroll.

4th page. Second Paragraph.
"Missile weapons can be used in the shooting phase, and melee weapons can be used in the combat phase."
Yeah you cant use your ranged weapon in the combat phase but there is nothing that says you can't shoot in the shooting phase then melee in the combat phase. This to me is broken. For instance I could field a unit of 10 corsairs, get them into melee combat, then during my turn I could shoot 20 attacks into the combat, then in the combat phase have another 20 attacks.

mhsellwood
07-07-2015, 05:30
Yeah you cant use your ranged weapon in the combat phase but there is nothing that says you can't shoot in the shooting phase then melee in the combat phase. This to me is broken. For instance I could field a unit of 10 corsairs, get them into melee combat, then during my turn I could shoot 20 attacks into the combat, then in the combat phase have another 20 attacks.

OK. Remember that the Black Ark Corsair gets the handbow and vicious blades OR the Wicked Cutlass and a Vicious Blade. So actually Black Ark Corsairs in a unit greater than 20, will over two rounds of combat (one game turn) each do .36 of a wound to a model with a 4+ save if they have a handbow and vicious blade, or .49 of a wound to the same model with the Wicked Cutlass and vicious blade combo. This is due to the fact that in your turn you shoot but in your opponents turn you cannot, while the melee weapon option gives better damage output over a number of turns. So handbows give you a bit of flexibility and a bit of an alpha strike but in a grind are actually the worse option. Pretty much all shooting units actually have the same kind of melee issue - they often have lower saves and their damage output over a number of turns does not equal a melee equipped unit.

The rules appear to be permissive, i.e. you can do anything you are not specifically prevented from doing. So, are there any rules preventing shooting when enemies are within 3" or 1" or standing on your head? No. So you can do it. Who can you shoot? Rules as written say anybody you can see and is in range. So shoot any unit you can see and are in range of. In addition the fact that lots of units shooting is weakened when within 3" indicates this is as intended - when concentrating on shooting you are more efficient than when the enemy is close and when actually in a combat a shooting unit will be outperformed by a close combat unit.

In terms of the war machine issue referred to above I believe the intention and the rules are that a war machine consists of two units - the crew and the war machine. The crew have their own stats. They have their own key words. They receive cover bonuses while within 1" of the war machine. They often have a different effective save, and the current system does not permit for one unit to save but another unit to suffer the wound. So, I believe you have two targets - the war machine and the crew. In this kind of scenario an elf bolt thrower would be very quickly destroyed by an orruk warboss - they would do around 2 damage on average killing the crew and leaving an un-crewed war machine. Just in general therefore a war machine is pretty vulnerable and needs to make use of its range to protect it from enemy attacks.

Re. 3 yeomen beating 5 swordmasters... so a unit that has 6 4+/4+ (3 of which only happen every second turn) and 6 4+/5+ attacks and a 5+ save (on the charge turn) was able to beat a unit that has 10 3+(reroll 1s)/3+/ rend -1 attacks, and a 4+ save that rerolls versus shooting? If this happened it is so off the scales unlikely that; one of the players is really bad, or is really unlucky, or you are pulling our leg. Or did you have some buffs on the yeomen? Or did you have some debuffs on the swordmasters? Or did you position the yeomen to maximise your range advantage and deny the swordmasters the ability to get in range to attack?