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MagicAngle
04-07-2015, 17:28
What with the release of Age of Sigmar causing a hurricane of fury (myself included), is this the greatest ragestorm GW has ever induced? Are there any precedents?

I recall the huge changes from 40k 2nd ed to 3rd ed causing a lot of upset in my gaming circle, but that was long before the amplification provided by the internet echo chamber.

MiyamatoMusashi
04-07-2015, 17:34
Failcast springs to mind.

There have been other uproars (40K 2nd to 3rd was one of them) but none on a scale quite like this.

Lord Damocles
04-07-2015, 17:46
Are there any precedents?
Every time 40K Chaos players get something which isn't the 3.5 Codex..?

:shifty:

3eland
04-07-2015, 17:49
Every time 40K Chaos players get something which isn't the 3.5 Codex..?

:shifty:

Or Chaos players in general. Every time a new codex comes out and it isn't theirs.

Jim30
04-07-2015, 18:46
Going back a long way but I recall a lot of grumbling from 40k 1st to 2nd edition which was sprung with zero notice.

Samsonov
04-07-2015, 20:31
I'm actually surprised by how little the "epic nerdrage" Darnok predicted has not happened. With each rumour confirmed in turn, most people just found AoS a hilarious travesty and/or were disillusioned. But most of all, people just don't care anymore, probably because they know there are alternatives, either be it other manufacturers or oldhammer.

ColShaw
04-07-2015, 20:42
I'm actually surprised by how little the "epic nerdrage" Darnok predicted has not happened. With each rumour confirmed in turn, most people just found AoS a hilarious travesty and/or were disillusioned. But most of all, people just don't care anymore, probably because they know there are alternatives, either be it other manufacturers or oldhammer.

This is a good point. As long as people are complaining, at least they're still talking about your game. When they're quiet, it means they've moved on completely.

Baragash
04-07-2015, 21:19
Yeah, my recollection of Failcast and the last two CSM book releases has AoS not on the top of the pile. I think a Nid book release probably trumps it too.

Samsonov
04-07-2015, 21:28
Lesser examples of ragestorm would be 2nd ed Epic to Epic 40,000 (a superior game in my view) and the dumbed down 2nd ed Space Hulk.

Kulgur
04-07-2015, 23:30
One of my favourites has been the GW twitter feed tweeting "RT if you love Age of Sigmar!". Last I saw, about 35 retweets, and 15-20 replies mostly negative or neutral. Meanwhile Mantic are reacting by saying the KoW 2nd Ed rules will be available for free download next friday, as well as by having a sale in their store for US customers and making their whole front page all KoW. The difference between the two companies is marked.

This is a biggest ragestorm I can remember (40k player since 2nd, fantasy from.... 5th I think). "Fine"cast was pretty big but this one's getting more hobby site news coverage.

TheFang
05-07-2015, 00:17
Failcast and the pulling of the GW forums are the two biggest I've seen.

Once Age of Sigmar hits the streets and casual players realise the rules are a complete mess then their rage will hit the web like a tidal wave so I don't think the ragestorm for AoS has peaked yet.

Weavetoucher
05-07-2015, 07:46
An oldie but it was massive on the old usenet boards. When they released the 2nd ed Space Hulk Terminators as a standalone box the price was considerably higher then other sets at the time for models you could get in a box with genestealers and a game for not much more. I think it started off all the GW insane pricing threads that have been with us ever since. Usenet nearly imploded through negative nerd rage.

Griefbringer
05-07-2015, 08:00
One of my favourites has been the GW twitter feed tweeting "RT if you love Age of Sigmar!".

Why would I need to play Rogue Trader to show my possible love for Age of Sigmar???

As for the original subject, wasn't the aftermath of Storm of Chaos received pretty badly in most circles? Lots of people were disappointed with various things that happened (or did not happen), and there may have been quite some expectations brought by the long build-up to the campaign in WD. Finally the design studio ended up ret-conning the whole show.

EmperorNorton
05-07-2015, 08:50
The Spots the Space Marine incident.
Or forcing Boardgamegeek.com to take down fan-created content.

I think these two are the biggest because they involved people that were not part of the player base.

kaimarion
05-07-2015, 10:12
The fallout from the nid codex was something else.

ehlijen
05-07-2015, 11:55
A fair few people were pretty angry when GW pulled the rug out from under the Damnatus crew. The outcome was unavoidable, but if GW had bothered to check before those guys made the movie instead of waiting till they were done...:(

Maldrac
05-07-2015, 19:53
So apart from me not liking AoS, since it has NOTHING to do with the game that brought me into wargaming and I loved so much, why do people say that AoS was meant to lower the entry level for new games?
Have you seen how much the starter box costs?
What kid would be willing or able to spend $250.- on a "starter set?" They've gone completely nuts at GW HQ. It's like they're running a wager to see how far can they stretch this crap until their customers revolt.

One thing is clear, who ever makes the decisions at GW HQ is NOT a gamer himself, just an economist drilled to squeeze out short term max profit.

R.I.P. Warhammer FB. You'll be remembered. Goodbye GW.

The bearded one
05-07-2015, 19:58
why do people say that AoS was meant to lower the entry level for new games?

Well, if we wanna be accurate, you could literally download the rules for free off their website, buy 1 box of saurus warriors or bretonnian pegasus knights or whatever, and you'd have an AoS army.

In the case of AoS, most people seemed to have stopped resisting and given up entirely. The biggest ragestorm I remembered was finecast.

Griefbringer
05-07-2015, 20:12
So apart from me not liking AoS, since it has NOTHING to do with the game that brought me into wargaming and I loved so much, why do people say that AoS was meant to lower the entry level for new games?
Have you seen how much the starter box costs?

Presumably the entry level issue is related to the length of the core rules and to the amount of models needed to play the game.

As for the costs, UK price for the starter box seems to be 75. For comparison, 40K Dark Vengeance sets seems to be priced currently at 65. Interestingly, the model selections provided in the two sets seem to be very similar - this is especially obvious with the Chaos forces included (lord, champion, big brute, squad of warriors/marines and two squads of marauders/cultists).

duffybear1988
05-07-2015, 20:16
I'm pretty sure the last Sisters of Battle codex release (the ebook one) was pretty rage inducing. At least for SoB players like me :D

Griefbringer
05-07-2015, 20:22
I have a feeling that the release of the Ogre Kingdoms army book (circa 2004) was not very well appreciated by the wood elf and chaos dwarf players, who were still waiting for their army books and using the Ravening Hordes army lists (though the wood elves also got some sort of intermediate list in WD at some point). Ogre Kingdoms were pretty much new concept as an actual army book at the time.

RevEv
05-07-2015, 20:26
What kid would be willing or able to spend $250.- on a "starter set?"

Actually to start now all they need is a single box of miniatures and the free rules and battlescroll. That's a very minimal outlay for any game.

A good marketing decision in any book if your looking to attract new customers who may never have come across war gaming before.

For all those in the midst of Nerd rage please consider this. Before GW the hobby of Wargaming was totally inaccessible to all but history nuts and fantasy geeks. There was no real Wargaming industry as there is now, and the influence of GW runs deep in that too. Now, at least, a gaming community exists beyond what GW produces because they have opened the way for other manufacturers and games designers to provide a myriad of games for people to play. In many opinions these are better than what GW produce.

Don't like the product, don't buy. It's as simple as that. There are plenty of alternatives elsewhere, but not as easily available on the high street, and probably not as cheap.

Inquisitor Shego
05-07-2015, 20:50
The 13th Black Crusade nonsensical turnaround results.... then the Storm of Chaos playing legitimately fair with transparent results, and Chaos getting owned, and the fans all getting pooped on. Grimgor letting Archaeon live, and the Chaos Gods forgiving him too.

ebbwar
05-07-2015, 22:32
I'm pretty sure the last Sisters of Battle codex release (the ebook one) was pretty rage inducing. At least for SoB players like me :D

There is only enough Sisters players left to barely make a storm in a teacup, let alone a full-on rage storm :P

ehlijen
06-07-2015, 02:03
Actually to start now all they need is a single box of miniatures and the free rules and battlescroll. That's a very minimal outlay for any game.

A good marketing decision in any book if your looking to attract new customers who may never have come across war gaming before.

For all those in the midst of Nerd rage please consider this. Before GW the hobby of Wargaming was totally inaccessible to all but history nuts and fantasy geeks. There was no real Wargaming industry as there is now, and the influence of GW runs deep in that too. Now, at least, a gaming community exists beyond what GW produces because they have opened the way for other manufacturers and games designers to provide a myriad of games for people to play. In many opinions these are better than what GW produce.

Don't like the product, don't buy. It's as simple as that. There are plenty of alternatives elsewhere, but not as easily available on the high street, and probably not as cheap.

Given the free rules and low mini requirements, it makes it even more baffling to price the starter box so high. Who is it for? If entry into the game is now cheap, why aren't they advertising that fact instead of suggesting it isn't by pricing the most obvious entry point to newcomers so high?

And yes, I'll always remember the GW of days gone fondly for bringing wargaming out of its tiny niche (into a much bigger niche). But that's the GW of the past. Current day GW is burning goodwill by the shovel load to speed the company ship right into an iceberg. That change has disappointed a lot of players, and rightly so. Few things can make you as angry as something you once liked.

jet_palero
06-07-2015, 03:11
Epic 40,000 made a lot of people rage. I personally thought it was a big improvement in most ways, but I understood why some of the Space Marine players were annoyed at the loss of nitty gritty detail. And the changing bases was a bad idea on GW's part (although it did make them easier to paint). Too much change too fast.

I really wish GW still made Epic. 6mm is such a nice scale for 40k.

Athelassan
06-07-2015, 05:15
For all those in the midst of Nerd rage please consider this. Before GW the hobby of Wargaming was totally inaccessible to all but history nuts and fantasy geeks. There was no real Wargaming industry as there is now, and the influence of GW runs deep in that too. Now, at least, a gaming community exists beyond what GW produces because they have opened the way for other manufacturers and games designers to provide a myriad of games for people to play. In many opinions these are better than what GW produce.

I don't think anyone has forgotten that, although there might be a few folks who haven't been around long enough to be aware of it. I think GW earned a lot of goodwill from the wargaming community through its efforts to expand the hobby (not "The Hobby TM") and its success in doing so. But that was fifteen-twenty years ago and they've burned through all that goodwill in the time since to the extent that it now feels like they are part of the problem.

And as ehlijen suggests, GW wouldn't provoke so much outrage if they hadn't earned that goodwill in the first place. That so many of us used to feel affection for GW makes it so much worse that the company now is so odious: it feels not so much like a frustration as a betrayal. A lot of the seething isn't because people blindly hate GW: it's because deep down they want to feel the same way about GW they once did, to throw their money at them once more, to have a GW product and service they can get really enthused about, but GW just aren't coming up with the goods. For many of us/them, GW is somewhere between a drug habit we're trying to kick and a no-good ex we can't quite resist.

Malefactum
06-07-2015, 06:28
Nobody mention the recent release of the pointy-ear-book? Lots of hate on the internet about it.

Havarel
06-07-2015, 08:37
It is quite the ragestorm, but ultimately I don't think GW will care. WHFB as 8th was unprofitable with the current fanbase and was very difficult for new players to begin, so AoS was born to draw in new players. It's new, interesting, simple but still varied enough to be interesting. I've never been tempted to buy so much stuff from GW.

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk

logan054
06-07-2015, 11:22
Given the free rules and low mini requirements, it makes it even more baffling to price the starter box so high. Who is it for? If entry into the game is now cheap, why aren't they advertising that fact instead of suggesting it isn't by pricing the most obvious entry point to newcomers so high?

And yes, I'll always remember the GW of days gone fondly for bringing wargaming out of its tiny niche (into a much bigger niche). But that's the GW of the past. Current day GW is burning goodwill by the shovel load to speed the company ship right into an iceberg. That change has disappointed a lot of players, and rightly so. Few things can make you as angry as something you once liked.

I'm guessing that it lowers the entry cost if you want to split it with a mate, 40 a poo, when you look at the prices of the actual unit boxes that isn't bad. For the same price you could get 5 skullreapers and some glue or 3 skullcrushers and some glue. Great if you want to start chaos or sigmarines.

Baragash
06-07-2015, 12:31
40 a poo

Some people will find this typo hilarious given the topic.

Alright, I admit I was one of them. ;)

Harwammer
06-07-2015, 16:28
6mm is such a nice scale for 40k.

Surely makes more sense for 30k?

Imagine if FW had done HH as epic scale :S.

Crimson Reaver
06-07-2015, 17:31
It is quite the ragestorm, but ultimately I don't think GW will care. WHFB as 8th was unprofitable with the current fanbase and was very difficult for new players to begin, so AoS was born to draw in new players. It's new, interesting, simple but still varied enough to be interesting. I've never been tempted to buy so much stuff from GW.

I'll agree that GW needed to make some changes to WHFB to increase the profitability of the range, however I don't think throwing the baby out with the bathwater and then carpet-bombing them both just to be sure was the right way to go about it. However sales figures will tell 6-12 months from now, how many of those people who buy the initial starter can be converted to AoS, and how many of those are still playing down the line. 4th Edition D&D seemed to launch reasonably well, then it stalled and got taken over by Pathfinder, made by a much smaller company who were able to better respond to fan demand.

2nd to 3rd Edition 40K annoyed me immensely, but the Internet was this strange and mystical place back in 1998 where I was trying to get a game of network Quake going :D I'm now far more bitter and cynical about the whole thing, but at least I have fibre broadband and Destiny now (and have about as good a chance at getting connected!) :D

Griefbringer
06-07-2015, 19:40
Surely makes more sense for 30k?

Imagine if FW had done HH as epic scale :S.

Actually, the original Epic games (Space Marine 1st edition and Adeptus Titanicus) were set at the Horus Heresy, though later editions seemed to move the setting to 40K.

TheFang
06-07-2015, 21:15
Actually, the original Epic games (Space Marine 1st edition and Adeptus Titanicus) were set at the Horus Heresy, though later editions seemed to move the setting to 40K.


The Heresy was started as background to explain why the identical armies of Epic Marines and Titans were fighting each other.

Lord Dan
06-07-2015, 21:57
The Spots the Space Marine incident.
Or forcing Boardgamegeek.com to take down fan-created content.

I think these two are the biggest because they involved people that were not part of the player base.

And in the former case it ultimately led to the permanent shutdown of GW's Facebook page.

Kahadras
07-07-2015, 00:57
Finecast. Basicaly GW spun us tales of how great it would be. How it was a fantastic material. How resin was better then metal in every way and that it was cheaper so they could pass those savings on to the customer. Then it was released and we all know how well that went. The best bit was the fact that despite GW raving about saving the customer money there were no price drops.

ehlijen
07-07-2015, 01:40
I'm guessing that it lowers the entry cost if you want to split it with a mate, 40 a poo, when you look at the prices of the actual unit boxes that isn't bad. For the same price you could get 5 skullreapers and some glue or 3 skullcrushers and some glue. Great if you want to start chaos or sigmarines.

Yes, when compared to itself, GW pricing isn't bad. Compared to anyone else, on the other hand...

bound for glory
07-07-2015, 01:41
what was the "spots the space marine" rage?

bound for glory
07-07-2015, 01:47
Actually to start now all they need is a single box of miniatures and the free rules and battlescroll. That's a very minimal outlay for any game.

A good marketing decision in any book if your looking to attract new customers who may never have come across war gaming before.

For all those in the midst of Nerd rage please consider this. Before GW the hobby of Wargaming was totally inaccessible to all but history nuts and fantasy geeks. There was no real Wargaming industry as there is now, and the influence of GW runs deep in that too. Now, at least, a gaming community exists beyond what GW produces because they have opened the way for other manufacturers and games designers to provide a myriad of games for people to play. In many opinions these are better than what GW produce.

Don't like the product, don't buy. It's as simple as that. There are plenty of alternatives elsewhere, but not as easily available on the high street, and probably not as cheap.

not true. i'm nearly 50. i remember going to wargame cons in the late 1970's in the ne us and there were hundreds of people in attendance. and there were big dealer halls at cons i went to...

bound for glory
07-07-2015, 01:51
Epic 40,000 made a lot of people rage. I personally thought it was a big improvement in most ways, but I understood why some of the Space Marine players were annoyed at the loss of nitty gritty detail. And the changing bases was a bad idea on GW's part (although it did make them easier to paint). Too much change too fast.

I really wish GW still made Epic. 6mm is such a nice scale for 40k.

i always thought 15mm would be great for 40k. i'd use 15mm 40k miniatures for GRUNTZ. a great game, btw...

Kahadras
07-07-2015, 02:08
what was the "spots the space marine" rage?

Google Spots the Space Marine lawsuit (or something like that). Basicaly GW decided that it owed the rights to the name Space Marine. Not Adeptus Astartes but Space Marines in general. They badgered Amazon into removing a book called Spots the Space Marine from their website due to copyright infringement. The author fought back. GW lost. Basically it's a story of a big company trying to throw it's weight around. GW went through a phase of doing it and all it really did was make them look like a bunch of jerks.

jet_palero
07-07-2015, 04:13
i always thought 15mm would be great for 40k. i'd use 15mm 40k miniatures for GRUNTZ. a great game, btw...

Yeah, I like the smaller scales. I'm looking real hard at DZC (10mm), and while I like their look, hot damn I'd love me some hunch back warlord titans instead. I may sneak a few of my old plastic ones into my PHR list. I've also got a good bit of flames of war miniatures painted up, and I like that game too.

ArtificerArmour
07-07-2015, 07:39
The Top 5 I can think of:

1) AoS - this is definately by far the biggest ragefest, and rightly so as its affected so many people
2) Grey Knight codex - mess with fluff, rules or models of an existing faction and you'll get hell - this dabbled in all 3, draigo carving Ward's name into many nerds chests

3) finecrap - I think this was mixed into Storm of Magic, meaning there was alot of rage to be had at the time. More money for less quality. I dont mind finecast, but alot of people did. GW must have lost money hand over fist.

4) Nid codex - yes, it was awful.

5) fantasy Daemons of chaos - what!? no magic armour?! random abilities?! reign of chaos?! motorbike cannons?!? there was a huuuge rage, again another fine mat ward as the book was obviously a very half arsed copy of the 40k daemns of chaos, which is actually quite a good, well thought out book

RevEv
07-07-2015, 07:44
not true. i'm nearly 50. i remember going to wargame cons in the late 1970's in the ne us and there were hundreds of people in attendance. and there were big dealer halls at cons i went to...

Now if you were to go to the same events I would imagine there would be thousands, and the range of games would be far greater and of far better quality.

In the UK when I was growing up, at about the same time as you by the sounds of it, the only store that stocked Citadel Miniatures was Forbidden Planet and that was to support D&D. WD was the first Wargaming magazine I was aware of at 17 and I read that for Thrud the Barbarian. The first GW game I played was Battlecars, and that was bought in by the school geek.

Now GW models are available in toy stores and model around the country. There is a wealth of Wargaming products of very high quality available for historic, fantasy and sci-fi games. GW influence is apparent in these improvements with Perry Miniatures and Warlord Games for miniatures and Kings of War for rules. There is now a scope for FLGS in the UK that was not there in the past.

It may have been different in your eyes in the U.S., but this is a global market and it is far far better than it was in my youth.

Blutrache
07-07-2015, 08:41
As previously stated there are a few examples... The Finecast debacle was pretty bad though. I skipped a lot of the Dark eldar characters just because of the problems I saw. And that 40k 25th anniversary model was just a very expensive lottery where you'd get either a good one or not. Funny how they tried to put a spin on it though, anyone else still referring to their minis as "crisp"? :-P
/Cheers

tu33y
07-07-2015, 08:58
for me personally it was the marines riding wolves. that drew a bit of a line in the sand for me and my hobby...

Groza
07-07-2015, 10:03
for me personally it was the marines riding wolves. that drew a bit of a line in the sand for me and my hobby...
What's wrong with that? I'm not as well read in 40k. Do marines weigh like a ton or something?

ehlijen
07-07-2015, 10:17
Yes, marines in power armour do weigh a lot and canines are not well built to carry riders (no animals truly are, but horses were bred to tolerate it reasonably well).

But the real issue was that space wolves were supposed to have a fondness of wolves as one aspect of their varied background, and not even a major one (that is still the fact that they are space marines with warrior tribe trappings). But instead of giving them any depth we got Wolf Wolfson riding a wolf swinging wolf claws (literally, he's in the codex).

I personally don't mind the wolves, as silly as they are, but I do think GW failed to really make the SWs interesting.

Blutrache
07-07-2015, 10:27
Yes, marines in power armour do weigh a lot and canines are not well built to carry riders (no animals truly are, but horses were bred to tolerate it reasonably well).

But the real issue was that space wolves were supposed to have a fondness of wolves as one aspect of their varied background, and not even a major one (that is still the fact that they are space marines with warrior tribe trappings). But instead of giving them any depth we got Wolf Wolfson riding a wolf swinging wolf claws (literally, he's in the codex).

I personally don't mind the wolves, as silly as they are, but I do think GW failed to really make the SWs interesting.
I think they nailed it there with both the wolves and the blood angels. Bloodfists, bloodmissiles, bloodplasma... Er no...
But really, identify tag word (blood or wolf) and then attach to every other noun in fluff does not an interesting read make...
/Cheers

Harwammer
07-07-2015, 11:31
When the dust settles can we look back on the current Ragestorm as Rage of Sigmar?

Griefbringer
07-07-2015, 14:02
When the dust settles can we look back on the current Ragestorm as Rage of Sigmar?

How about "Rage Against the Sigmachine" or is that too long?

ebbwar
07-07-2015, 14:57
How about "Rage Against the Sigmarine" or is that too long?

There. Fixed that for you. :)

MarcoSkoll
07-07-2015, 16:29
The best bit was the fact that despite GW raving about saving the customer money there were no price drops.
I don't think GW ever said anything to that effect (at least at the time; If you go back further, they had justified many price rises in the past on high tin prices), it was the consumers who knew that resin was a much cheaper material.

Still, while Finecast was pretty ragey, it did have quite a few proponents. And despite that Finecast was one of the things that motivated me to stop buying from GW, as a result of the pricing having become preposterous, I do have to concede it has some merits; I have since acquired a few models courtesy of vouchers I won at forum events, and found it to be a rather pleasant material to work with (at least with the benefits of a temperature controlled heat gun for straightening bent parts. I imagine it must be much more of a nuisance to do with hot water).

The_Real_Chris
07-07-2015, 17:21
Now if you were to go to the same events I would imagine there would be thousands, and the range of games would be far greater and of far better quality.

In the UK when I was growing up, at about the same time as you by the sounds of it, the only store that stocked Citadel Miniatures was Forbidden Planet and that was to support D&D. WD was the first Wargaming magazine I was aware of at 17 and I read that for Thrud the Barbarian. The first GW game I played was Battlecars, and that was bought in by the school geek.

The 70's was the golden age in terms of participation. Things like model railways and airfix (shorthand for building kits) fed people into historical wargaming. There were TV programs (look up the 80's one, I think Battlegrounds?, on youtube. Plenty of cardigans!), clubs everywhere and a lot of independant shops (hell even in the early/mid 80's I had 6 shops within a short bus ride of me, - Welling, Bexleyheath, Woolwich and Erith, with Bexleyheath having 3 at one point) selling wargames models.

In terms of quality and well thought out choice it has never been better. But participation? That time is in the past still.

Galain
07-07-2015, 18:05
What I've noticed is that this actually has a lot of 40k players uneasy. There's been a lot of "40k does really well, so GW won't do that to us...right?" Which maybe cause numbers to slip, GW to start doing End Times stuff for 40k, fear to take hold....

Tzar Boris
07-07-2015, 18:36
Here's a conspiracy theory...

What if AOS is the "New Coke"?

Just so they can bring back "Classic Warhammer" in 3 months and say "we're listening!" to the sound of registers ringing throughout the land.

TheFang
07-07-2015, 20:53
Just so they can bring back "Classic Warhammer" in 3 months and say "we're listening!" to the sound of registers ringing throughout the land.
The Sigmarine statue and new logo at Warhammer World indicates they're really serious about AoS. I think it'll be a "No retreat! No Surrender!" job until the next full financial report.

Bloodknight
07-07-2015, 21:10
Now if you were to go to the same events I would imagine there would be thousands, and the range of games would be far greater and of far better quality.


That's very UK-centric, though. Germans played boardgames and Co-Sims (you know, those games with hexmaps and oodles of markers) at the time and in the 80s up to about 2000 it was a major stronghold of BattleTech. Mechforce Germany was at times bigger than Mechforce US, and the official Mechforce was not actually the biggest club (I think the one I was a member of in the late 90s had somewhere around 3000 members). 40K was somewhat popular, but only its 3rd edition really took off, it was still all nerdy, though. I think the wider acceptance of gaming wasn't really GW's or FASA's or whomever's doing. It was guys born in the 70s and 80s who were used to play games on home computers, including RPGs. Gaming was a natural thing to them. I'm one of those guys. Amstrad CPC, C64, NES, PC. Looking for an analogue game that I could play with different people, I bought a BattleTech box that I was informed about in a C64 gaming magazine. A friend ordered Shadowrun 1 at the time, he read the same magazine ^^. Those two games ate up most of our youth, only later GW games popped in again. Somebody had heard that there was some kind of game that didn't use hexmaps (a very odd idea to us at the time, and, tbh, I still like most hexbased games better because hexes are clean and can't be cheated with unlike a ruler...) and used miniatures like those in Space Crusade...we had not even heard of GW, they had 4 shops or so in the country, two of them in Berlin. Basically a non-entity.



As to the ragestorms: man, did we hate 3rd edition 40K at first. But as a game, it still made sense, even though it wasn't as funny (as in "the mechanics allowed for fun events, randomness is not by necessity fun") or narrative (the only games of 40K that I will always remember were from 2nd edition when really wacky stuff happened. And unlike RT, it was a playable game) as 2nd. was. Faster to play, though. We got used to it.

In more modern times...LotR used to attract a lot of rage, but only because players felt it was taking development time away from 40K and WFB. In hindsight the idea was probably wrong, and, if nothing else, it was one of the best rule systems GW ever made. Shame they didn't use that for AOS.

Finecast was the worst, though. That was the time they really tried to paint **** golden and sell that to people. Not to forget the lie that it would be not only awsome, but cheaper, and the minis got all a lot more expensive than the metals were.

RevEv
07-07-2015, 21:25
The 70's was the golden age in terms of participation. Things like model railways and airfix (shorthand for building kits) fed people into historical wargaming. There were TV programs (look up the 80's one, I think Battlegrounds?, on youtube. Plenty of cardigans!), clubs everywhere and a lot of independant shops (hell even in the early/mid 80's I had 6 shops within a short bus ride of me, - Welling, Bexleyheath, Woolwich and Erith, with Bexleyheath having 3 at one point) selling wargames models.

In terms of quality and well thought out choice it has never been better. But participation? That time is in the past still.

That was fine if you lived in London, I didn't! And I don't equate Airfix with GW!

Back on topic - rageStorms! I was working in GW when they withdrew 2nd Ed 40K. The hate we got then was huge.

The_Real_Chris
07-07-2015, 21:38
That was fine if you lived in London, I didn't! And I don't equate Airfix with GW!

Back on topic - rageStorms! I was working in GW when they withdrew 2nd Ed 40K. The hate we got then was huge.

Not in London? Where are you, France? :)

2nd ed to third stopped me playing 40k (saved from an expensive addiction...) but oddly I don't remember many bitter complaints. I think many players back then had other GW games they just focused on instead or simply walked away. The transition wasn't shrouded in secrecy though and things were telegraphed so maybe the rage was diffused over a longer time period?

I finecast is still the winner... Not enough warhammer players left to rival that.

Llew
07-07-2015, 22:48
I'd say Finecast, plus the changes in 8th edition were both pretty big ragestorms, although 8th did have some folks weighing in on its side.

Poncho160
08-07-2015, 00:40
Spots the space marine, just because that got a lot of attention for those outside the hobby.

Kahadras
08-07-2015, 02:29
Honourable mention to the 'broken armybook' phase that Warhammer went though in 7th ed culminating in Demons of Chaos.

NoobLord
08-07-2015, 04:41
For all those in the midst of Nerd rage please consider this. Before GW the hobby of Wargaming was totally inaccessible to all but history nuts and fantasy geeks. There was no real Wargaming industry as there is now, and the influence of GW runs deep in that too. Now, at least, a gaming community exists beyond what GW produces because they have opened the way for other manufacturers and games designers to provide a myriad of games for people to play. In many opinions these are better than what GW produce.

What? Inaccessible how? When I was a lad pre-Warhammer quite a few of us played Squad Leader at school and many other wargames and we'd rope the D&D crowd into some of the simpler games like Dawn Patrol. There were 4 shops within walking distance of where I lived that sold wargaming miniatures in one case, and RPGs, boardgames and wargames in the other 3. There was a myriad of manufacturers and retailers before GW embarked on their grand strategy of squeezing everyone else out and it has taken many years for the tide to turn.


Don't like the product, don't buy. It's as simple as that. There are plenty of alternatives elsewhere, but not as easily available on the high street, and probably not as cheap.

'Probably not as cheap'?! wtf

Harwammer
08-07-2015, 10:17
I don't think GW ever said anything to that effect (at least at the time; If you go back further, they had justified many price rises in the past on high tin prices), it was the consumers who knew that resin was a much cheaper material.

Still, while Finecast was pretty ragey, it did have quite a few proponents. And despite that Finecast was one of the things that motivated me to stop buying from GW, as a result of the pricing having become preposterous, I do have to concede it has some merits; I have since acquired a few models courtesy of vouchers I won at forum events, and found it to be a rather pleasant material to work with (at least with the benefits of a temperature controlled heat gun for straightening bent parts. I imagine it must be much more of a nuisance to do with hot water).

As someone who enjoys chopping things up I rate materials as plastic>resin>lead>white metal.

I always felt I was getting a great deal on plastic models simply because I valued them so much over metal, yet somehow they were cheaper. Seeing as there were some metal models I would pick up, I basically viewed plastic as having a discount, so I guess that's why I've never got too salty when GW realised I value plastic equal/above metal. I suppose this (goldswords, goldigors, etc) wasn't as much as a ragestorm as a simmering resentment.

I do prefer that other companies price their plastics closer to cost than what I'd be willing to pay for. It's nice to be able to get something you'd value without having to pay the premium, but honestly it doesn't encourage me to buy extra, it just gives me more for my beer funds :P.

Edit: perhaps the reason bugmans bar in GWHQ doesn't have such a good turn over anymore is people are unable to divert as much plastic-crack funds into beermoney? I suppose the reduction in opening hours at bugmans was my biggest ragestorm!

Greavous
08-07-2015, 12:12
honestly i loved the transition from metal to plastic, im one of those guys that bought a whole new army and litteraly threw out the old ones.
the cost doesnt bother me, to be honest id pay 2x what they are now as once you have it you have it forever the only thing you have to buy is a new codex and rulebook every few years.
i can think of alot more expensive hobbies that require constant buying/renewal. (paintballing, motorcross)

Bloodknight
08-07-2015, 12:59
I suppose this (goldswords, goldigors, etc) wasn't as much as a ragestorm as a simmering resentment.

Who knows how much that helped WFB die quicker?

dhallnet
08-07-2015, 14:42
From the top of my head :
- 3rd Ed 40K
- Epic 40K
- Failcast
- The Specialist range shutdown

What's "funny" is AoS is combining the "flaws" of all of them appart failcast.

MarcoSkoll
09-07-2015, 16:26
As someone who enjoys chopping things up I rate materials as plastic>resin>lead>white metal.
I'm not that long lived as wargaming veterans go - only fifteen years, but it's long enough to go back into the era when Citadel miniatures were primarily white-metal*, and I remember it well enough (particularly as I was heavy on the specialist games and have now moved on to other manufacturers) that converting white-metal still feels a fairly standard skill to me as far as miniature modelling goes.

* As I sometimes remind people, around 2000, most armies had their basic unit in plastic and maybe some of the fundamental vehicles, but white-metal was still the material of the day, even if just as add-ons for the core plastics.

It's perhaps a little more time consuming to work with, but that's not really a problem when I see modelling as a pastime, and I find it's more to do with the nature of the sculpts than the material anyway; fairly inexpensive tools can make metal working pretty easy, the challenge is more that metal miniatures usually come in few parts rather than several conveniently swappable pieces (given that they can be cast with undercuts).
But once you can visualise how to break down a model, an awful lot can be done with most - one of my favourite modelling experiences started with an old metal Jes Goodwin Scout and quickly turned into a sex-change operation.

216806

To get it slightly back onto the subject of rages, I was somewhat motivated in this by socking it to catastrophically bad female models like the Sisters of Avelorn, which seemed to be the result of someone somewhere going "Yes, women are just men with breasts". It might have worked if the Elf models were actually slender and androgynous creatures like they are in the art (which I personally think would look fantastic), but the models are most emphatically not, regardless of what the designers tried to claim.

Anyway, I'd like to think I'd taken a decent stab at showing that a more slender upper body and a decent face sculpt are far more important than just adding breasts. (Which is part of why I don't think most mixed-sex kits work, because the female torsos are often required to be the same size as the male ones in how the kit is expected to fit together, and they're usually just using the same arms, which are often just too bulky).


once you have it you have it forever
If your primary interest is owning the models or gaming, that's fair enough. But modelling or painting are core motivations for me, and I only normally get to work on a model once.

ColShaw
09-07-2015, 17:10
Off-topic, I know, but MarcoSkoll, that is a fantastic face sculpt. I wish I could sculpt faces out of greenstuff, but sadly, I seem to be hopeless at it.

MarcoSkoll
10-07-2015, 02:25
Thanks.

It's perhaps not quite as hard to pick up as a skill as it's often perceived to be though. If there's one thing I've discovered in my life, it's that most people have had terrible art lessons - school classes are usually just "Draw this bowl of fruit" and the like; a series of tests of your existing artistic ability with no actual attempt made to explain how to improve on that. I completely quit my school lessons the first time I had a choice about my classes, and it so happens that I owe one of my friends a pretty big debt for baiting me back into giving art another try - that time around I came across some books that were infinitely more useful than any of my many art teachers ever was.

Autumn Leaves
10-07-2015, 07:30
What with the release of Age of Sigmar causing a hurricane of fury (myself included), is this the greatest ragestorm GW has ever induced? Are there any precedents?

I recall the huge changes from 40k 2nd ed to 3rd ed causing a lot of upset in my gaming circle, but that was long before the amplification provided by the internet echo chamber.

Everything before is as nothing to this.
Just as GW have swept aside the Old World and 8th edition has become Old-Hammer, so the nerd rage storm has increased in pace and velocity.
The Warhammer Forum even took down the Warhammer section of their forum, thats how bad it has been.
It's a terribly short sighted approach by a bunch of gamers who can't see past a single corporation for their gaming fix.
Makes for hilarious reading though.

Bloodknight
10-07-2015, 09:52
Huh, yeah. The Warhammer Forum doesn't seem to have anything Warhammer on it. It certainly does not do what it says on the tin at the moment *lol*.

forthegloryofkazadekrund
10-07-2015, 10:27
This guy is taking the rage of AOS to a new level
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/141508-Hothead-Gamer-Burns-Warhammer-Fantasy-Army-Over-New-Age-of-Sigmar-Rules
There is swearing in it (a lot) but the video starts a few seconds before the "burning" so bypasses all of that

duffybear1988
10-07-2015, 11:05
This guy is taking the rage of AOS to a new level
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/141508-Hothead-Gamer-Burns-Warhammer-Fantasy-Army-Over-New-Age-of-Sigmar-Rules
There is swearing in it (a lot) but the video starts a few seconds before the "burning" so bypasses all of that

Lulz

What a fool. I hate the game, but burning an entire collection is stupid.

Lord Damocles
10-07-2015, 11:06
Lulz

What a fool. I hate the game, but burning an entire collection is stupid.
Or at least smash it with a hammer and then mail it to GW...
:shifty:

NoobLord
10-07-2015, 11:17
Wow. Seems like it's a good job that guy doesn't live in Nottingham. Or maybe he has a plan for the gold statue at this very moment.

All publicity is good publicity, right? Er, no.

Avian
10-07-2015, 12:14
Huh, yeah. The Warhammer Forum doesn't seem to have anything Warhammer on it. It certainly does not do what it says on the tin at the moment *lol*.
Seems to be a temporary problem.

http://warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=129793

Sephillion
10-07-2015, 12:58
Lulz

What a fool. I hate the game, but burning an entire collection is stupid.

Sentiment echoed here.

duffybear1988
10-07-2015, 13:32
Or at least smash it with a hammer and then mail it to GW...
:shifty:

Smashing one figure is reasonable, but to burn an entire collection? :rolleyes: Think of the money he could have made by selling it off. He could have then spent that on a good game like Warmachine ;)

Nothing says screw you GW like selling your army cheaply to others (so that GW lose sales) and then going and spending your money on a better product.

Hengist
10-07-2015, 15:40
To be frank, though Age of Sigmar has certainly generated a good bit of forum controversy, it has nothing on that which surrounded either Finecast or 6th ed 40k. There just aren't enough people who give a damn about Warhammer Fantasy Battle.

Autumn Leaves
10-07-2015, 21:37
Seems to be a temporary problem.

http://warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=129793

Just as most of the community is hoping that AoS is a temporary problem, Lol.

The warhammer section on the forum is still thee its just hidden from plain view so you have to use the search engine to find. The stance has been taken to mitigate the nerd rage.

Jaesyk
11-07-2015, 01:59
Death Holy Death is a regular at the local shop where I live. He had several warhammer fantasy armies. He sold the others and burned this one to make a point. The dark elves were his favorite. So he burned them to communicate his disdain for GW. Now he is the local representative and recruiter for warmachine and hordes.

Ayin
11-07-2015, 02:19
Now he is the local representative and recruiter for warmachine and hordes.

Most of the people I know who once played Fantasy or any GW games now play WarmaHordes. Most of the people I have ever met who play WarmaHordes and are in their mid 20's or older used to play GW games.

When I bring up the new AoS, or they hear someone talk about it, either angrily or positively, the responses are generally either dismissal of GW, or a complete lack of care about AoS.

I know it's off topic, but it's crazy talking to GW fans who are convinced this move is going to bring all of these Warmachine players into Warhammer because...reasons...

RandomThoughts
11-07-2015, 07:58
I know it's off topic, but it's crazy talking to GW fans who are convinced this move is going to bring all of these Warmachine players into Warhammer because...reasons...

Hahahaha

Thanks for the laugh men, made my day! :)

MagicAngle
11-07-2015, 15:13
Maybe I'm just not used to frequenting Warseer during a big controversy, but has the Warhammer community ever been this polarized? It seems like every AoS thread ends up as a flame war with some quite personal attacks. It's pretty sad to see the community end up with such rancor.

forthegloryofkazadekrund
11-07-2015, 15:19
Maybe I'm just not used to frequenting Warseer during a big controversy, but has the Warhammer community ever been this polarized? It seems like every AoS thread ends up as a flame war with some quite personal attacks. It's pretty sad to see the community end up with such rancor.

Ive been on 5-6 forums and its happening alot, the community seems to be all over the place, more so than ive ever seen

ColShaw
11-07-2015, 22:19
Maybe I'm just not used to frequenting Warseer during a big controversy, but has the Warhammer community ever been this polarized? It seems like every AoS thread ends up as a flame war with some quite personal attacks. It's pretty sad to see the community end up with such rancor.

I've been a member here for several years (as noted on profile) and I've never seen it this bad. I wish the people on both sides, including those I agree with, would scale it back a little. It's getting really unpleasant.

Autumn Leaves
11-07-2015, 23:12
Tbis is the worst and the most prolonged rage I've ever witnessed and I've been playing since 1st edition, and been a long time tournament player since the 1990's.
Nothing touches this for the sheer weight of displeasure oozing out of every gamers pores.
People burning their armies on video, TWF hiding their warhammer section, it's just unheard of...
Then again, GW has never wiped out the entire backstory like it never happened and introduced a non pointed skirmish game on round bases with very 40K looking models to replace a square based ranked up system that has been around for decades.
It was always going to cause some tectonic sized ructions.

Avian
11-07-2015, 23:25
TWF didn't hide their FB section. Several sub-forums were temporarily unreachable from the main page due to a glitch, including several that didn't have anything to do with FB. And if you had that forum bookmarked, you could access it just fine.

And it was just one guy burning his stuff.

shelfunit.
12-07-2015, 01:01
People burning their armies on video

Please tell me you are joking :wtf:

Athelassan
12-07-2015, 12:06
Please tell me you are joking :wtf:

Nope. http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/141508-Hothead-Gamer-Burns-Warhammer-Fantasy-Army-Over-New-Age-of-Sigmar-Rules

Although, to be fair, pretty much everybody seems to be agreed, no matter their opinion on AoS, that the guy's an idiot for doing so.

ebbwar
12-07-2015, 12:12
Nope. http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/141508-Hothead-Gamer-Burns-Warhammer-Fantasy-Army-Over-New-Age-of-Sigmar-Rules

Although, to be fair, pretty much everybody seems to be agreed, no matter their opinion on AoS, that the guy's an idiot for doing so.

And he'll probably get high off the fumes of burning plastic/paint and run out and buy lots of AoS ;)

RevEv
12-07-2015, 13:16
One less idiot in the game as far as I'm concerned!

It's a game for goodness sake.

EmperorNorton
12-07-2015, 13:26
Nope. http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/141508-Hothead-Gamer-Burns-Warhammer-Fantasy-Army-Over-New-Age-of-Sigmar-Rules

Although, to be fair, pretty much everybody seems to be agreed, no matter their opinion on AoS, that the guy's an idiot for doing so.

I don't agree, I respect his decision to show his displeasure in this rather drastic way.

Scribe of Khorne
12-07-2015, 15:36
Every time 40K Chaos players get something which isn't the 3.5 Codex..?

:shifty:

I live but to serve...;)

CSM players are a breed apart, as we continue to complain what, 12 years later?

Inquisitor Kallus
12-07-2015, 16:21
Nope. http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/141508-Hothead-Gamer-Burns-Warhammer-Fantasy-Army-Over-New-Age-of-Sigmar-Rules

Although, to be fair, pretty much everybody seems to be agreed, no matter their opinion on AoS, that the guy's an idiot for doing so.

And thanks for unnecessarily adding to the worlds pollution levels as well 'Mr angsty teenager'

216972

Spell_of_Destruction
14-07-2015, 01:37
I recall the huge changes from 40k 2nd ed to 3rd ed causing a lot of upset in my gaming circle, but that was long before the amplification provided by the internet echo chamber.

This is what instantly came to mind when I saw the thread title. I remember a lot of anger at the time but the internet was still young and the mega forums didn't exist. The internet gaming community was relatively small and scattered.

There was a fair bit of wailing when the news of 'unbound' broke before 7th ed 40k was released.

More recently, the new Eldar codex caused a massive s*** storm.

Overall, I would say that only the 2nd to 3rd transition comes close. Of course, while I didn't personally like all of the changes, the transition was very successful for GW and the release of 3rd ed was basically the foundation that modern 40k was built on.

It currently seems unlikely that AoS will be similarly successful but then the same was probably true of 3rd ed when it was released. What is perhaps easy to forget is that it took a full year for 3rd ed to fully get off the ground (the 'get you by' army lists in the rulebook didn't really cut it against those who had a codex release) and I think it will take at least as long to fully understand what GW have planned for AoS.

tu33y
14-07-2015, 11:33
I was saddened by the video of the guy burning his army for several reasons. One, the camera work was awful, I kept wanting to zoom out. second the music made me nearly want to murder. third, while he burned a lot it really didn't look even finished, so its not like he had invested too much time into it.

I would have preferred him give it away for a good cause, even publicly handing it to a poor kid who wanted to start warhamz but didn't have to cash.

I thought it was a petulant, empty gesture that made his argument look less valid.

but then I am 37 and from a poor background. I learned early on if you break your toys you don't get no more.

tu33y
14-07-2015, 11:40
back on topic tho: ragestorms for me:

5.Austrailia
4.Spots the Space Marine
3.7th 40k so quick on the heels of 6th but not really fixing anything
2.finecast
1.the collected works of Matt Ward

Honorable Mention. AOS


GK 5th and BA 5th being the main offenders. no individual codex was bad enough for the top five, but as a body of work from a single person Matt Ward has created more wailing and wringing of hands than anyone or anything. but the AoS seems to have not only raged but SPLIT the community its amazing. so much hate on one hand, with actual rational reasons why its chuff and people hate it (not just rage/web moaning) but on the flip side equally eloquent and rational arguments about how its the best thing ever to happen to Fantasy and it has re-invigorated them and their hobby.

and the mad thing is... both are right.

Athelassan
14-07-2015, 15:20
Overall, I would say that only the 2nd to 3rd transition comes close. Of course, while I didn't personally like all of the changes, the transition was very successful for GW and the release of 3rd ed was basically the foundation that modern 40k was built on.

It currently seems unlikely that AoS will be similarly successful but then the same was probably true of 3rd ed when it was released. What is perhaps easy to forget is that it took a full year for 3rd ed to fully get off the ground (the 'get you by' army lists in the rulebook didn't really cut it against those who had a codex release) and I think it will take at least as long to fully understand what GW have planned for AoS.
I think the major difference between AoS and the 2nd-3rd ed transition is that 3rd ed didn't slash and burn its predecessor to quite the same extent that AoS has. While some armies definitely got shafted in 3rd ed 40K, at least straight out of the blocks, the background remained intact, the armies all remained in play, and while the system did change dramatically, many of the core rules remained intact. AoS meanwhile is built over the ashes of old Fantasy and it's increasingly clear that the majority of legacy armies won't be supported at all in an ongoing fashion. They'll never get new models; they'll never get new rules; the setting they inhabit canonically no longer exists. If you want to participate fully in AoS in an ongoing fashion you need to buy into the new world and the new armies in a way you didn't have to with 3rd ed (even if 3rd ed did require rebuilding a lot of armies to be compatible with the new rules).

But it is comparable, yes.



GK 5th and BA 5th being the main offenders. no individual codex was bad enough for the top five, but as a body of work from a single person Matt Ward has created more wailing and wringing of hands than anyone or anything. but the AoS seems to have not only raged but SPLIT the community its amazing. so much hate on one hand, with actual rational reasons why its chuff and people hate it (not just rage/web moaning) but on the flip side equally eloquent and rational arguments about how its the best thing ever to happen to Fantasy and it has re-invigorated them and their hobby.

and the mad thing is... both are right.
Obviously it's almost entirely subjective. But I think too that the majority of people made up their minds before AoS was released. I've noticed a distinct correlation between the people saying beforehand that they were really excited about what came next and those now saying that AoS is the most fun they've ever had with their clothes on, and vice versa. I think a lot of people were determined to like AoS no matter its flaws, and a lot determined that it wasn't for them no matter how good it was. In many cases I think GW would have had to produce something which literally melted your face off when the box was opened before they admitted that maybe it wasn't any good.

Both sides do have a point, but it's all obfuscated by the air of relentless positivity/negativity that precludes any real objective judgment of the situation. I think AoS has some good ideas and holistically hangs together slightly better than is sometimes alluded to. I think there are also some rather major problems right at the heart of the system that suggest a real lack of joined-up-thinking during the design phase and really make the lack of serious playtesting apparent, on top of one or two really jawdropping rules that make me question what the ruleswriters were smoking. And I'm not talking about the obvious stuff like the one-turn autowin exploits or the lack of a balancing mechanic either (although the latter is odd): in fact I think the fuss over these things gets in the way of appreciating where the real problems in the rules lie. And undoubtedly AoS does avoid, remove or correct a lot of the problems that plagued 8th edition, because it's such a radically different system that that's inevitable. However that doesn't mean that it's actually any better, and it's worth asking whether this was the best way to address those issues, and indeed whether there are other system out there that do it better, which I think relatively few of AoS's defenders are doing.

The question of revitalisation is another one where people are just going to have radically different opinions based on their predisposition. For some people, AoS stands a good chance of reviving Warhammer fantasy at a time when it was previously on its knees. For others, GW has murdered Warhammer fantasy through long-term neglect and a final pillow over the face, and has now given its skin to an impostor to wear. Both sides are probably influenced to a degree by brand loyalty: some people are really attached to GW and its products, and others can never forgive them for past betrayals, of which this seems to be the latest.

And the two sides will never, I think, agree. I guess it's possible that some of the pro-AoS camp will get tired of the game and come round to the detractors' point of view, but that's a big if; I suspect the detractors will never be won over since they'll just refuse to play it, although some of the weaker-willed might eventually be drawn back in by a new model release or entering a GW store to buy some paint and being tempted into a demo game.

GW must take a lot of the blame for this. Not just for killing fantasy and releasing AoS, which as the pro-AoS camp often attest might have been necessary (but might not), but for the lack of information and marketing that they did prior to the release; for putting out fantastically expensive End Times books that would be rendered obsolete in under twelve months; for making no attempt whatsoever to inform WFB players about what was coming next; for failing to make any effort to promote or sell them the new product if they weren't already interested in it; for failing (or refusing) to inform veteran players about the future of their model ranges and whether the armies they buy will still be available in a few months' time; for releasing virtually no information about coming releases to create any excitement about new armies for the new game. They have done a number of things right, certainly: making the rules free and the free warscrolls for legacy armies was a good move (although in many ways just a return to form on the latter point, as they did the same for 6th edition fantasy and put out basic army books/codexes included with earlier rulesets of 40K and fantasy), but as so much of the time it's one step forward, two steps back.

Mat Ward has certainly caused a lot of grief in his time, but I don't think he's ever created so much anguish in such a short space of time. He's a sort of long-running sore on the backside of GW products, whereas this is a sudden epidemic.

lorelorn
15-07-2015, 08:47
Ragestorms of the past that come to mind (though I would never use that phrase):

1. The Aus embargo. This has to be my number one since it led to every wargamer I know abandoning GW and moving to other systems. I mean it, not a single one stayed, and yes, we were regularly buying from GW here as well as overseas outlets. The turth of this can be seen in the fact that GW's sales declined in Aus every year following their embargo, and this from a territory that was always a steady growth story, even then things flatlined in the UK. Nice job GW, and well done alienating your customers.

2. Epic 40,000. GW replaced one game with another that looked the same but played very differently (sound familiar?). It wasn't what the fans wanted, they left, and what was once GWs 3rd core game became a memory within 12 months. Out of this rage came something positive - Netepic, and now Epic:Armageddon.

3. Finecast. I mean, I guess. It was always a stop gap, and was dumped without a whimper once the plastic kits came online.

4. Storm of Chaos/ Eye of Terror. GW released some interesting campaign based material, encouraging players to get involved, convert entire new armies, and buy special figures. Then they pretended it had never happened.

5. Specialist Games shutdown. No surprises that games such as Dreadball, Infinity, and more have arrived on the shelves over the years since that mistake.




The first GW game I played was Battlecars, and that was bought in by the school geek.
Likewise. I remember playing, not really having a clue, driving too fast or too slow and getting my car destroyed after dealing little damage to the others. However my driver survived, jumped out of the car, and the game changed for me. Now it was my little card man, running between buildings, trying to get off the field in order to at least survive the match. He made it, and my introduction to both gaming and what I now know as emergent narrative was complete. Good times.

Lord Damocles
15-07-2015, 15:27
4. Storm of Chaos/ Eye of Terror. GW released some interesting campaign based material, encouraging players to get involved, convert entire new armies, and buy special figures. Then they pretended it had never happened.
Although in this case, events arrising from the Eye of Terror campaign did have effects beyond the conclusion of the campaign, and have been mentioned repeatedly since - most recently in Codex: Cult Mechanicus.

Yowzo
15-07-2015, 17:19
TWF didn't hide their FB section. Several sub-forums were temporarily unreachable from the main page due to a glitch, including several that didn't have anything to do with FB. And if you had that forum bookmarked, you could access it just fine.


Basically they wanted to add a KoW and AoS section, something went wrong and the whole subforums went one inside the others (like the rules development subforum being hidden in the painting side).

That was a week and a half ago and not yet fixed.

ebbwar
15-07-2015, 18:10
what should be the biggest Ragestorm is the squatting of... The Squats! ;)

RandomThoughts
15-07-2015, 19:00
what should be the biggest Ragestorm is the squatting of... The Squats! ;)

Come on, that's just small stuff!

Sephillion
16-07-2015, 15:00
Come on, that's just small stuff!

Yeah, I think it comes up short.

Griefbringer
16-07-2015, 16:43
I thought the reason for pulling the stunt on Squats was that they wanted to make the game less beardy.

Avian
16-07-2015, 17:32
The simple fact is that they didn't measure up to the likes of Space Elves, Space Orcs, Space Ogres and whatnot.

Sephillion
16-07-2015, 18:05
The simple fact is that they didn't measure up to the likes of Space Elves, Space Orcs, Space Ogres and whatnot.

That would have been a tall order.

Reinholt
16-07-2015, 18:09
That would have been a tall order.

I think the mods will be locking this thread shortly if this keeps up.

:shifty:

Griefbringer
16-07-2015, 18:19
As for original topic, 5th edition WHFB Vampire Count players may have been a bit miffled: their first army book came out in early 1999, and approximately 18 months later came out the 6th edition rules, which were not compatible with 5th edition books. So if the Vampire Counts wanted to join the party, they would need to be playing Ravening Hordes lists for a while and then buy the 6th edition army book when it came out in 2001.

According to a popular Internet legend, the VC book came out only 6 months before 6th edition, but it was not actually that close.

That said, the 40K 2nd edition Sisters of Battle book came out pretty close to the release of 3rd edition rules (which also were not compatible with previous army books). My FLGS still had a big pile of those SoB books left in early 2003, when they ended up flogging the remaining ones at 0.50 euros a piece - I think I ended up buying five copies, and later on trading those for all sorts of other goodies from people collecting 2nd edition codexes.

RevEv
16-07-2015, 21:10
I think the mods will be locking this thread shortly if this keeps up.

:shifty:

That would be very short sighted and beneath the stature of the mods!

OT - my very brief career with GW covered the 2nd/3rd Ed 40k hiatus, when 40k rules were removed from store. As the gap was covered by Necromunda and Blood Bowl, and the change was well communicated, there seemed to be little nerdrage.

Saying that the current AoS rage is a bit overwrought now. It would be good to see what positives have come out of the whole affair, even if it's that people have moved on to another realm.

ebbwar
16-07-2015, 21:54
I think the mods will be locking this thread shortly if this keeps up.

:shifty:

My bad, I was expecting Squat-rage not height jokes :(

ebbwar
16-07-2015, 21:56
That would be very short sighted and beneath the stature of the mods!

OT - my very brief career with GW covered the 2nd/3rd Ed 40k hiatus, when 40k rules were removed from store. As the gap was covered by Necromunda and Blood Bowl, and the change was well communicated, there seemed to be little nerdrage.

There was less internet back then. Or more precisely not as many people on the internet back then. So fewer people to cause internet ragestorms. I miss those good old days ;)

Avian
16-07-2015, 22:11
My bad, I was expecting Squat-rage not height jokes :(

Hard to muster up (pun not really intended) much rage when they've been gone from the game far longer than they were ever part of it. Was it not twenty years gone last year?

itcamefromthedeep
16-07-2015, 23:35
The fallout from the nid codex was something else.
I don't know about rage, but I finished half a bottle of whisky that night.

Bloodknight
17-07-2015, 00:11
No, they had a functional army list in 2nd edition, with psychic power cards for the Ancient in the Dark Millennium supplement box, so the 20th anniversary would have to be in 2018. Basically they got killed with the release of 3rd edition in 1998 because they received nothing there.


That said, the 40K 2nd edition Sisters of Battle book came out pretty close to the release of 3rd edition rules

The SOB had probably the shortest run of a proper army book in GW's history. Released in 97, superceded by an incompatible 3rd edition ruleset in 1998. I think only the 2nd edition Assassins codex from late 1997 had a shorter shelf life, but at least that was a comparably cheap pamphlet and not a "real" codex like the excellent, but full-priced, Sisters of Battle book. I still hope that at some point the Sisters will get St. Praxedes back as a special character....

II Orar II
17-07-2015, 02:25
back on topic tho: ragestorms for me:

5.Austrailia
4.Spots the Space Marine
3.7th 40k so quick on the heels of 6th but not really fixing anything
2.finecast
1.the collected works of Matt Ward

Honorable Mention. AOS


GK 5th and BA 5th being the main offenders. no individual codex was bad enough for the top five, but as a body of work from a single person Matt Ward has created more wailing and wringing of hands than anyone or anything. but the AoS seems to have not only raged but SPLIT the community its amazing. so much hate on one hand, with actual rational reasons why its chuff and people hate it (not just rage/web moaning) but on the flip side equally eloquent and rational arguments about how its the best thing ever to happen to Fantasy and it has re-invigorated them and their hobby.

and the mad thing is... both are right.

I'd argue the real unspoken victims of Matt Ward were the Ultramarines and Codex armies in general that he was trying to champion. He massacred the Ultramarine fluff and made the Codex Astartes look like a total joke rather than a military treatise written by one of the greatest military minds the Imperium has ever seen. Ultramarines got such a bad reputation following GW and Matt Ward's favouritism/crap writing that it's tainted their image and made them one of the most disliked factions in 40K. The Sternguard/Vanguard 1st Company split still boils my blood a bit; completely disregards the entire point of Space Marines as do the Centurion suits, I'd love for both to be retconned. If I was a Necron player I'd say that Codex was his biggest crime as I hate the Tomb King in space fluff but I'm not so...

I never really complained because I was already past caring but Finecast for me is the thing that made me angry. I've still never bought a Finecast model and I never will, I just don't want to deal with it and I'd rather get metal miniatures from Ebay if necessary.

Griefbringer
17-07-2015, 08:03
I think only the 2nd edition Assassins codex from late 1997 had a shorter shelf life, but at least that was a comparably cheap pamphlet and not a "real" codex

Wasn't that the 24-page codex that consisted approximately 75 % of material that had been published in WD over the years, with rules for one new assassin added?

Clone1710
17-07-2015, 10:29
The new Total War: Warhammer probably also holds quite some rage potential, as people who get into the hobby through it will find out that the current version of AoS is rather...lackluster.
Seriously, why are they releasing a whole bunch of games set in the old world (Total War: Warhammer, Warhammer: The End Times - Vermintide, Mordheim: City of the Damned) and instead of using the popularity created through these video games they just scrap the entire lore they are build on so people who played any of them won't recognize it anymore?

That just doesn't make any sense.

Kaptajn_Congoboy
17-07-2015, 11:01
The new Total War: Warhammer probably also holds quite some rage potential, as people who get into the hobby through it will find out that the current version of AoS is rather...lackluster.
Seriously, why are they releasing a whole bunch of games set in the old world (Total War: Warhammer, Warhammer: The End Times - Vermintide, Mordheim: City of the Damned) and instead of using the popularity created through these video games they just scrap the entire lore they are build on so people who played any of them won't recognize it anymore?

That just doesn't make any sense.

They're just farming out IP and the licence was sold a few years ago. I don't think GW leads more than 2 years max - in 2013 they were happily releasing WHFB 8th products - so AoS might not even have been in the planning stages when CA got the licence.

Bloodknight
17-07-2015, 11:04
Wasn't that the 24-page codex that consisted approximately 75 % of material that had been published in WD over the years, with rules for one new assassin added?

Perhaps. There were rules for the well known 4 Assassins who got two models each, and a short story and some artwork for each. TBH I liked it, it was one of their better supplements. Very atmospheric.

Avian
17-07-2015, 11:45
So it seems like the most vocal of the pro-camp just went from "Move on!" to "I'm moving on!", upping sticks to leave the forums for Twitter (where they can choose to only read what other positive people have to say).

I think that's the first time I've heard of where the POSITIVE guys have rage-quit.

Bloodknight
17-07-2015, 11:54
Holy filter bubble Batman!

II Orar II
17-07-2015, 14:55
The new Total War: Warhammer probably also holds quite some rage potential, as people who get into the hobby through it will find out that the current version of AoS is rather...lackluster.
Seriously, why are they releasing a whole bunch of games set in the old world (Total War: Warhammer, Warhammer: The End Times - Vermintide, Mordheim: City of the Damned) and instead of using the popularity created through these video games they just scrap the entire lore they are build on so people who played any of them won't recognize it anymore?

That just doesn't make any sense.

I see it as the opposite. It's pretty much the last bastion for the continuation of the Warhammer Universe people have loved for decades. As a 40K player who never had the time to start a Warhammer army but was always interested in the Old World and the game itself it's a perfect way to enjoy it. I certainly don't have any intention of starting Age of Sigmar so Total War is really my last opportunity to enjoy Warhammer Fantasy. I do agree that it makes no sense from Games Workshop's perspective but they don't obviously don't care as long as someone is paying them royalties.

nedius
17-07-2015, 15:31
Seems odd to plan to release a Total War version of old warhammer, whilst at the same time swapping to AoS...

Not sure the rage is as much as what I perceived during 'that' tyranid codex rage. I worry that it is because people are too despondent to even bother. I've seen a number of enthusiasts, but for the most part, it's more "The rule says what? Really? REALLY? This isn't a joke? Are you sure? Come on, you're pulling my leg... oh, your not?. Oh.....well, there goes my hobby....." and wander off mumbling how ok they are whilst looking blankly at their feet. No rage, just dejection.

I worry that this was just the final straw - one that finally broke the spirit if the old school gamers. They will game other games, but they feel GW is just no longer for them, and so they have wandered off...

The other alternative is that I have seen several "Who want's a game of 8th?" questions. I think many are just ignoring it. Will wait for the first 8th Ed AoS fandex...

vlad78
17-07-2015, 20:35
Seems odd to plan to release a Total War version of old warhammer, whilst at the same time swapping to AoS...

Not sure the rage is as much as what I perceived during 'that' tyranid codex rage. I worry that it is because people are too despondent to even bother. I've seen a number of enthusiasts, but for the most part, it's more "The rule says what? Really? REALLY? This isn't a joke? Are you sure? Come on, you're pulling my leg... oh, your not?. Oh.....well, there goes my hobby....." and wander off mumbling how ok they are whilst looking blankly at their feet. No rage, just dejection.

I worry that this was just the final straw - one that finally broke the spirit if the old school gamers. They will game other games, but they feel GW is just no longer for them, and so they have wandered off...

The other alternative is that I have seen several "Who want's a game of 8th?" questions. I think many are just ignoring it. Will wait for the first 8th Ed AoS fandex...

What worries me even more is the fact GW DOES NOT WANT to produce a good ruleset or good fluff. They prefered to abandon the WFB ship than really try to improve it. This gives really bad perspectives over the future of 40K.

Can GW afford to scare its customers?

ebbwar
17-07-2015, 22:17
Can GW afford to scare its customers?

To GW, they will never scare their customers. Remember according to Kirby GW tells the market (aka customers) what it wants and the market will go along with what its told. So lets see over the next year or two how this philosophy fares for GW with PoS.

ihavetoomuchminis
17-07-2015, 23:13
And dont forget that, according to GW and their loyal followers in this and other forums, it's always customer's fault if something GW does doesnt work.

Blutrache
18-07-2015, 09:36
And dont forget that, according to GW and their loyal followers in this and other forums, it's always customer's fault if something GW does doesnt work.
To be really fair I've also heard it can be the fault of the weak/strong or (gasp!) the occasional wrongly hired staff in a one-man store too. ;)
/Cheers

Galain
20-07-2015, 20:11
So it seems like the most vocal of the pro-camp just went from "Move on!" to "I'm moving on!", upping sticks to leave the forums for Twitter (where they can choose to only read what other positive people have to say).

I think that's the first time I've heard of where the POSITIVE guys have rage-quit.

Geez, how the hell will they manage to discuss the complex strategies and lore of AoS with only 140 characters per post?

vlad78
21-07-2015, 00:41
Geez, how the hell will they manage to discuss the complex strategies and lore of AoS with only 140 characters per post?

Rules are 4 pages long. Strategies won't need more than 140 characters to be accurately described.

Poncho160
21-07-2015, 06:26
Matt Wards interpretation of Kaldor Draigo, the Grey Knights in general and the Ultramarines would have to be really high on the ragestorm list. People were ranting about all three for years!

Even now Draigo deafeating Mortarion still does not sit right with me. They even included the event in the 7th edition codex! grrrrrr

Galain
22-07-2015, 09:40
Rules are 4 pages long. Strategies won't need more than 140 characters to be accurately described.

...yes, the utter lack of depth of AoS's rules and lore was, in fact, the joke I was making there.

Inquisitor Shego
23-07-2015, 08:00
Matt Wards interpretation of Kaldor Draigo, the Grey Knights in general and the Ultramarines would have to be really high on the ragestorm list. People were ranting about all three for years!

Even now Draigo deafeating Mortarion still does not sit right with me. They even included the event in the 7th edition codex! grrrrrr

To make Draigo beating Mortation make sense you have to play Real American in the background.

GrandmasterWang
23-07-2015, 15:42
To make Draigo beating Mortation make sense you have to play Real American in the background.

What he no sold Mortarion's offense, hulked up and leg dropped him?

Now I need to see a Draigo conversion with a bald Hulk Hogan head.

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk

SuperHappyTime
23-07-2015, 20:35
Rules are 4 pages long. Strategies won't need more than 140 characters to be accurately described.

"Push dudes forward and roll some dice" is 37 characters.

Samsonov
23-07-2015, 20:45
"Push dudes forward and roll some dice" is 37 characters.
"Prance around pretending to be a horse to re-roll to hit" is 57 characters. It all adds up when formulating deep strategies.

Senbei
24-07-2015, 20:07
Lesser examples of ragestorm would be 2nd ed Epic to Epic 40,000 (a superior game in my view)



I still disagree about it being better. It was just so bland and, let's face it, it killed Epic completely as a 'third main game' and big-box brand. It was, imho, utter tripe*. There's a reason that the two most played versions of Epic look nothing like Epic:40k.

(*Though some people like it. It was wonderfully abstract, but what's the point in having 20+ variants of Ork battlewaggon if they all act exactly the same in-game? It was just -too- abstract, and the models didn't help... some of the worst (quality-control wise) models I ever bought were from this era.... mold-lines deeper than the detail. I've got the Adeptus Titanicus version of the same vehicle and its much better cast. The detail is a lot crisper too.)


As for the biggest rage-storm? I've played since the 1980s and it was definitely the switch from 2nd to 3rd ed 40k. Never known so many people stop playing GW games in such a short period.... well... not until now.

Samsonov
24-07-2015, 22:02
I still disagree about it being better. It was just so bland and, let's face it, it killed Epic completely as a 'third main game' and big-box brand. It was, imho, utter tripe*. There's a reason that the two most played versions of Epic look nothing like Epic:40k.Abstract, but the command and control was very elegant. You had very meaningful choices when it came to orders. Also, the moral symptoms was much improved. In essence, you went from being in individual control of every vehicle to a company/brigade commander. In this sense more realistic and more tactical, though I can understand why more realistic and more tactical does not always mean more enjoyable.

As an aside, it is interesting to wonder why warmaster got anywhere, it is even more abstract than Epic 40K (though more realistic, more tactical and even better). Strange that epic40k was rejected and warmaster not (or, at least, the historical community loved it).

Senbei
24-07-2015, 22:18
Abstract, but the command and control was very elegant. You had very meaningful choices when it came to orders. Also, the moral symptoms was much improved. In essence, you went from being in individual control of every vehicle to a company/brigade commander. In this sense more realistic and more tactical, though I can understand why more realistic and more tactical does not always mean more enjoyable.

As an aside, it is interesting to wonder why warmaster got anywhere, it is even more abstract than Epic 40K (though more realistic, more tactical and even better). Strange that epic40k was rejected and warmaster not (or, at least, the historical community loved it).

Warmaster was about the command of infantry blocks. I think the abstract system of command rolls kinda worked well for that. Epic had always been about the HUGE variety of units you could choose from. 7 Ork clans to choose from.... 20 to 30 different battlewagons. 4+ different Gargants. Several super-heavy battle fortresses. The game was all about choice and fielding an entire army group/chapter/Waaargh. Epic 40k took that away and then took away the individuality of the few units that were left (binding them into smal companies). Another odd thing is that it was a smaller scale game than the previous editions (force wise). I never saw a game of E:40k where someone fielded an entire chapter, but I saw that happen several times with 2nd ed.

Anyway, poor old Epic is so very dead now. No point disecting it because I doubt GW will ever make a satisfactory 6mm 40k game now... at least, not one to my tastes.

The_Real_Chris
24-07-2015, 22:20
Epic 40k of course fed into gothic which had a far better reception (though Andy c did later say he should have done a bucket of dice approach).

Athelassan
25-07-2015, 00:01
Abstract, but the command and control was very elegant. You had very meaningful choices when it came to orders. Also, the moral symptoms was much improved. In essence, you went from being in individual control of every vehicle to a company/brigade commander. In this sense more realistic and more tactical, though I can understand why more realistic and more tactical does not always mean more enjoyable.

As an aside, it is interesting to wonder why warmaster got anywhere, it is even more abstract than Epic 40K (though more realistic, more tactical and even better). Strange that epic40k was rejected and warmaster not (or, at least, the historical community loved it).

I think the reason Warmaster was a relative success where Epic 40K crashed and burned is largely that Warmaster was offering something new, whereas Epic was replacing something existing. There was a bit of scepticism about Warmaster in my community when it launched and whether it really offered anything new, although also cautious optimism that truly epic battles could now be simulated without the expense or "clunk" of Warhammer fantasy. With most people, a demo game of Warmaster was enough to sell them on the idea that the game had something to offer.

Epic 40K on the other hand was succeeding a game system which had been around for ages and had a large following (and a complex and detailed ruleset). Functionally, Epic 40K might have been a better game, but existing Epic players had got into the game at least in part because they liked Space Marine, rather than a new game they could play with their Space Marine models. So existing players deserted the game in droves and it acquired a negative reputation which probably put new players off picking it up.

It is the same problem which afflicted 40K 2nd to 3rd ed (although in that case enough of the system remained that it was at least recognisable, even if there was sulking about balance and loss of detail in the rules: some spiffy new models also helped keep the game afloat), and now Age of Sigmar (although AoS doesn't give off any sign of being as good a game as Epic 40K). Whether AoS will pull through as 3rd ed did or quietly die in a corner like Epic did, I don't know.

That said I'm not entirely sure that Epic 40K "killed" Epic in the way it's often suggested. Although Epic had been big news in the early 90s, at the time the community was much less connected and I don't recall having information about sales figures so it might be that Epic was struggling anyway by the time Epic 40K launched, and it was merely a flubbed relaunch in an attempt to boost flagging sales, which would draw parallels to AoS.

zoggin-eck
25-07-2015, 10:11
As an aside, it is interesting to wonder why warmaster got anywhere, it is even more abstract than Epic 40K (though more realistic, more tactical and even better). Strange that epic40k was rejected and warmaster not (or, at least, the historical community loved it).

As much as I love Epic 40k, I have to agree that it really was a gamble being a new edition that was totally different to what came before. No surprise that it ticked off existing players.


Another odd thing is that it was a smaller scale game than the previous editions (force wise). I never saw a game of E:40k where someone fielded an entire chapter, but I saw that happen several times with 2nd ed.


That's the absurd thing, and I really think GW is partly to blame with the way they presented it. I think the game worked better with much larger battles with multiple war engines/titans, flanking mobs of tanks, masses of fairly similar and masses of infantry. The fairly similar stats made more sense at this scale. The rulebooks and White Dwarf of course all showed tiny, tiny little detachments with single stands of devastators and individual tanks! Of course the abstract rules and stats were completely boring. Look at some of the photos, the armies as smaller than your average 40k game! (2nd edition 40k, at that :))

However, were the Epic 40k, 40k 3rd edition etc. releases really such a "ragestorm", or did people simply drop out of GW's games and move on? I've always had the impression that people who gave up after Rogue Trader and WHFB 3rd simply continued on with what they had, whereas people really do seem out for blood this time! I guess there are so many more avenues to vent these days :)

Weavetoucher
25-07-2015, 10:55
I wonder this too, is it a sense of entitlement, a sense the company "owes" them something? When 4th/5th ed WFB died my group just kept playing, when 40k 2nd died we just kept playing, when Ad&d 2nd died we just kept playing. Nothing forced us into the new rules. Only thing I can think is because of base changes and new models maybe for the first time ever the the new edition figures cannot be used under old rules? But then again I will buy them and put them on warlord square bases....

shelfunit.
25-07-2015, 12:47
The rulebooks and White Dwarf of course all showed tiny, tiny little detachments with single stands of devastators and individual tanks! Of course the abstract rules and stats were completely boring. Look at some of the photos, the armies as smaller than your average 40k game! (2nd edition 40k, at that :))

This was what immediately struck me too - the WD had a battle in it that looked like a standard 40k game, almost down to army selection - I wanted to play full company+ sized games, and it looked, quite litterally, like Epic (scale) 40K. If I wanted that I would have been playing 40k at the standard 30mm scale, and after seeing the WD I wasn't interested in paying out 40+ just to read the rules and confirm if this was the case. Thank the imaginary pink unicorn for Net Epic (although that seems to be changing to something completely unrecognisable now too :-( )

zoggin-eck
25-07-2015, 14:09
If I wanted that I would have been playing 40k at the standard 30mm scale, and after seeing the WD I wasn't interested in paying out 40+ just to read the rules and confirm if this was the case.

That's the infuriating thing for me, because it wasn't the case. The game doesn't seem to be written for small armies made up of small detachments. The behind the scenes photos showed them playing more realistic games though! Oh well, perhaps it really was my personal greatest ragestorm...

Netepic is a good example of where an abandoned set of rules can end up.

shelfunit.
25-07-2015, 15:16
That's the infuriating thing for me, because it wasn't the case. The game doesn't seem to be written for small armies made up of small detachments.

As I found out a few years ago when I was given the 3 Epic 40k books.


The behind the scenes photos showed them playing more realistic games though!

Exactly. The WD report(s), at least the original one appeared to show the army building taking place almost a stand at a time, and seemingly in far greater detail than SM2, which extrapolated out to the equivalent of a 4-6,000 SM2 game looked like it just would not work.


Netepic is a good example of where an abandoned set of rules can end up.

Until it gets a full points system/army design overhaul...

Poncho160
25-07-2015, 15:52
As much as I love Epic 40k, I have to agree that it really was a gamble being a new edition that was totally different to what came before. No surprise that it ticked off existing players.

Pretty sure a lot of warhammer players would agree with you on that comment!

Samsonov
25-07-2015, 19:50
This was what immediately struck me too - the WD had a battle in it that looked like a standard 40k game, almost down to army selection - I wanted to play full company+ sized games, and it looked, quite litterally, like Epic (scale) 40K. If I wanted that I would have been playing 40k at the standard 30mm scale, and after seeing the WD I wasn't interested in paying out 40+ just to read the rules and confirm if this was the case. Thank the imaginary pink unicorn for Net Epic (although that seems to be changing to something completely unrecognisable now too :-( )I remember it was the same with a warmaster battle report, measured by the number of 10mm it had a smaller body count that some WFB battle reports. I guess the studio could only allocate so much time to each project, hence there was not large numbers of figures going around. Of course, they should have just used studio models for close ups and larger shots could use any semi-skilled painter.

mechanicalhorizon
26-07-2015, 04:24
I'd go with the loss of Specialist Games. Maybe it's just my old-school nostalgia but they lost so much variety when they chose to end SG.

Finecast was pretty bad, but (IMHO) not from the results of the quality issues customers had but the fact is was so easily avoidable. Tunnel-vision took it's toll.

Griefbringer
26-07-2015, 08:00
The WD report(s), at least the original one appeared to show the army building taking place almost a stand at a time, and seemingly in far greater detail than SM2

As far as I know, in Epic40K the detachment building allowed for much more micro-management. In SM2 the player would simply pick from amongst ready made platoons/detachments (usually conveniently consisting of only 1 or 2 troop types) and companies (containing multiple platoons/detachments), conveniently priced in multiples of 50 points. In Epic40K the detachments were designed from the scratch, could contain a wide variety of different troop types, and a lot of the troop types could really be purchased as individual stands (or in squads of two stands). So while the game may have been otherwise more abstract and less detailed, the force building process seemed to provide more detail.

I would presume that the battle report authors in WD may have been limited by what new models the studio 'Eavy Metal team could paint up, and they may have also wanted to cram a lot of different unit types into their detachments to show the diversity achievable. Of course if they had not decided to change base sizes and revise the whole model line, they could have used the old studio armies rather than having to have an entirely new force painted...

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As for other issues that have annoyed people, does anyone else remember how the WHFB Bretonnian battalion box got re-organised? The original one released in early 2004 contained 3 pegasus knights, 8 regular knights, 16 archers and 16 men-at-arms. The revised version (cannot remember when it got released) contained 1 pegasus knight, 8 regular knights, 16 archers and 20 men-at-arms. Many people got annoyed by this, especially since the minimum unit size for the pegasus knights in the rules was 3 models.

The_Real_Chris
27-07-2015, 12:55
I'd go with the loss of Specialist Games. Maybe it's just my old-school nostalgia but they lost so much variety when they chose to end SG.

No ragestorm though. Indeed the response from most GW customers was fairly negative towards fans of the games grouped under the SG banner.

vlad78
27-07-2015, 17:19
Abstract, but the command and control was very elegant. You had very meaningful choices when it came to orders. Also, the moral symptoms was much improved. In essence, you went from being in individual control of every vehicle to a company/brigade commander. In this sense more realistic and more tactical, though I can understand why more realistic and more tactical does not always mean more enjoyable.

As an aside, it is interesting to wonder why warmaster got anywhere, it is even more abstract than Epic 40K (though more realistic, more tactical and even better). Strange that epic40k was rejected and warmaster not (or, at least, the historical community loved it).

You seem to forget GW increased stupidly the prices when turning to the new epic. You had to pay the same amount for 6 mm miniatures than for 28 mm.
And I didn't like the rule too. Those 2 bits were a bit too much for me.

AOS is doing the same plus destroying the remaining background.

Athelassan
27-07-2015, 20:08
You seem to forget GW increased stupidly the prices when turning to the new epic. You had to pay the same amount for 6 mm miniatures than for 28 mm.
And I didn't like the rule too. Those 2 bits were a bit too much for me.

AOS is doing the same plus destroying the remaining background.

It wasn't quite that bad. :rolleyes: But it's true that Epic 40K was one of the first times I looked at GW prices and thought "wow, that's a bit steep". Previously I thought prices were at the high end of the curve but would just save up to buy what I wanted. The new Epic stuff was getting into the realms of "just not worth it, even if I had the money". A couple of times I seriously considered getting into Epic after that, but every time I'd balk at the prices and buy something else instead.

Samsonov
27-07-2015, 20:52
It wasn't quite that bad. :rolleyes: But it's true that Epic 40K was one of the first times I looked at GW prices and thought "wow, that's a bit steep". Previously I thought prices were at the high end of the curve but would just save up to buy what I wanted. The new Epic stuff was getting into the realms of "just not worth it, even if I had the money". A couple of times I seriously considered getting into Epic after that, but every time I'd balk at the prices and buy something else instead.From memory, it was 3 tanks for 5, just like you got 3 infantry in 40K or WFB for 5. So 15 was 9 leman russes or predators, quite a potent force, whereas 9 metal infantry for 40K or WFB was not all that impressive. Also, infantry boxes were not that bad. Finally, the starter set was excellent value, two large forces and good terrain.

The_Real_Chris
28-07-2015, 00:03
Oh yes I remember! Bought nothing as a consequence. The infantry was especially bad with boxes going from 10 sprues (first edition) or 20 in the mixed box for 9.99 (was that 2nd?) to 5 for a faction in 2d to 1! (larger at least) sprue in 3rd. I think the price point remained the same... Or was maybe 5 a sprue in 3rd? Now of course that would be seen as terribly generous :)

Then there was the sale with blisters bundled up into bags selling for about 50p a blister. They clearly massively overproduced and didn't sell anything. A nice gesture though to let fans stock up before axing it from everywhere bar mail order.

The idea behind formation creation according to Jervis was to have more cross over with 40k (hadn't we just had Bloodbowl made into a fantasy battles game, losing the football look models wise). So the mixed formations were so you could build formations matching 40k armies (look, my Epic army has a formation for each of my and my mates armies), both to show the scale and to generate synergy in sales between the too. The extreme flexibility was balanced with the calculation of firepower, so you couldn't min max in theory formations. The models were all re-done as well (almost GHQ standard), no doubt expecting 2nd edition levels of popularity and a big payday.

I wonder if that contributed to GWs conservative future actions with changes to 40k and fantasy (up until the nuclear option with AoS).

The ruleset was actually good, though recalculating firepower could be a bit of a chore. But the changes (one of the few times GW has become more complex with a game in terms of understanding and playing), the price increase and the new bases were too much. Surprising I had forgotten about the prices, I remember now going into GW Bromley (free school bus pass!) and seeing the new thunderhawk which was brilliant, but leaving empty handed as I couldn't afford it. Then some years later failing a GW job interview at Nottingham but getting a small box to fill up with models from the racks. Several trays of Epic later my air force was born :)

Oh the memories - AT was the first GW game I bought.

Samsonov
28-07-2015, 00:10
Oh yes I remember! Bought nothing as a consequence. Then there was the sale with blisters bundled up into bags selling for about 50p a blister. They clearly massively overproduced and didn't sell anything. A nice gesture though to let fans stock up before axing it from everywhere bar mail order.Missed out on Epic here but I remember getting quite some gothic and necromunda via this, good times. But anyway, Epic 40K had a smaller buy in than most 40K and WFB armies, so it is a shame is failed. After all, based on my experience of the taccoms forum, Epic 40k Leman Russes are still the most popular type people have in their armies, the earlier ones being rather ugly and the Armageddon ones were extremely expensive.

Commissar von Toussaint
28-07-2015, 02:45
Okay, I'm a latecomer here but events involving Elves always win the ragestorm (or should I say 'pique') Olympics.

C'mon, remember the Dark Eldar codex that sucked so bad the players actually got GW to make them a new one? :eek: I mean, talk about setting a precedent!

Then there was the Dark Elf book that got an update in the WHFB annual because it...wait for it...was so weak.

A ragestorm can't really be given credence unless it makes GW blink and to my knowledge, those are the only two that ever had a discernible effect.

itcamefromthedeep
28-07-2015, 05:09
The 8e Fantasy power scroll got a need for balance.Not exactly connected to a ragestorm though.

Tzar Boris
29-07-2015, 03:49
I found the most far reaching was the official GW forums being pulled.

Not just the internets, cos who were you gonna tell - you're Friends Reunited page? It was every GW/Hobby shop - also about the same time when the editorial in WD became notably less fun and fruity and more marketing spiel. If I could recall the date, that was the day when GW finally lost grip on its withering soul. Was it around Eye of Terror? Think that particular nerdrage mighta been the catalyst.

Edit - it was during the great "Let's shut down online 3rd party stores crusade" of 2006.