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PurpleSun
04-07-2015, 22:20
Just played AoS in a game with Ogres vs. Deamons. My buddy learned that his herald can summon a unit of pink horrors that can then summon another unit of pink horrors in the same hero phase, and so on. So you can summon a unit that can then summon a unit without end. He brought in three units in one turn. And he left the rest of his deamons at home, or he could have summoned even more units.

He simply beat my Ogres by attrition. There was no way for me to eliminate all his wizard units before he whittled down all my Ogres.

It totally sucked.

3eland
04-07-2015, 22:23
"Pink Horrors know the
Arcane Bolt and Mystic Shield spells."

They cannot summon themselves.

That further summon spell is only something a Chaos Wizard can do.

kargie
04-07-2015, 22:27
Yes, they can summon themselves. They have both keywords "chaos" and "wizard", therefore they know that spell as well.

Much of the way spells beyond the first two work are rather convoluted--most undead wizards know 15+ spells now.

Also, though. Summoning isn't broken. It's actually a well-balanced rule, and here's why:

You can summon a unit, or you can place it with your army at the start of the game. Remember, no need to summon as there's no "points" value or limit. So the fact that you get another unit later isn't an advantage like it is in 40k or 8th, its just a choice. And a summoned unit versus just placing that unit at the start of the game has a number of drawbacks--you lose their effectiveness prior to summoning, you sacrifice another spell (and mortal wounds) for summoning, and the summoned unit doesn't count as part of your original army, so for a partial victory summoned units are liabilities, and maybe you'll fail the summon or it'll be countered by the opponent. But in exchange for that, you get a chance at the correct unit at the right place and at the right time, and by starting with a smaller army a shot at having a sudden death objective. So, actually, a really balanced rule.

Of course, only in a game with no balance whatsoever would this sort of summoning be balanced. But here we are, with the "throw down whatever you want" as you deploy setup.

AngryAngel
04-07-2015, 22:28
Yeah, they apparently thought summoning was too weak in 40k, turn that dial up to 11 GW.

3eland
04-07-2015, 22:29
Interesting.

I always read it as a Chaos Wizard, as in a Warrior of Chaos Wizard.

A little extreme.

WhispersofBlood
04-07-2015, 22:31
Summoning seems like a powerful mechanic. I'd like to play more games with and against someone who can summon (I had sold my chaos army towards the end of 8th as I wanted to paint up a new one). But the danger of quickly racking up an insumountable killed model/starting model ratio seems a risk. As they count a model who has died when they die, but not as one of your starting models.

So you could end the game with something like 200% of your models being dead... in which case even if you tabled me you lose.

Spiney Norman
04-07-2015, 22:38
Just played AoS in a game with Ogres vs. Deamons. My buddy learned that his herald can summon a unit of pink horrors that can then summon another unit of pink horrors in the same hero phase, and so on. So you can summon a unit that can then summon a unit without end. He brought in three units in one turn. And he left the rest of his deamons at home, or he could have summoned even more units.

He simply beat my Ogres by attrition. There was no way for me to eliminate all his wizard units before he whittled down all my Ogres.

It totally sucked.

There's a very easy way to stop this kind of thing from happening, it's very obviously a d*ck move, so ask your buddy not to do it

It should take you about 20 seconds of reading the AoS rules to work out that if you're prepared to pull d*ck moves like that to hammer the win then you've so completely missed the point in the game that you should probably just not play it again. The rules are fun but fragile, if you insist on trying to break them every chance you get neither you nor your opponents are ever going to enjoy the game.

At the end of the day summoning is a *little* pointless anyway, since you could have started with all those models on the table if you'd wanted to, what is the point in trying to work out balanced starting forces if your just going to drop another army in the first hero phase?

AngryAngel
04-07-2015, 22:52
Spiney, there is no point, that is the point. You go in troop light, have an easy win condition, then summon up double or triple and an army, win then ride those triumphs through all your other games, ever. The point of AoS is it ends.

Honestly, the system is so fubared, you might as well just make a totally random chart and just use that for everything including attacks and you'd be about at the same level. While play acting as a goblin, drinking ale disco dancing with Nagash who is riding an invisible horse, that happens to have an impressive beard and a very masculine and impressive mustache.

Sparowl
04-07-2015, 22:53
Did you count all of those summoned units as dead at the end? Because unless he wiped you from the board, he's going to have trouble with his 200+% model lost rate.

Mawduce
04-07-2015, 23:10
OH no, it gets worse. Chaos have the Screaming Bell. Roll a 13 on 2d6 and auto-win. But that's impossible you say! Actually it is possible because one of the Chaos hero's (Kairos Fateweaver) allows you take one roll you make and turn it to whatever you want once per game. So you roll for the bell and make it 13. The ability is called Oracle of Eternity. Look it up, it's free. Kairos Fatweaver is on Page 17 of the chaos codex, and The Screaming Bell is on page 5 of the Skaven codex. Deploy and declare victory.

redyellowpinkgreen
04-07-2015, 23:11
He could have just deployed them all in the deployment phase though, makes little difference

AngryAngel
04-07-2015, 23:12
At leas then the game would be quick. You know, I'd even play the AoS so long as my opponent took that combo and used it. I'd bring one Dwarf, and let him win, we could play all day, like hundreds of games and you know what ? I'd even have a good time.

WhispersofBlood
04-07-2015, 23:17
OH no, it gets worse. Chaos have the Screaming Bell. Roll a 13 on 2d6 and auto-win. But that's impossible you say! Actually it is possible because one of the Chaos hero's (Kairos Fateweaver) allows you take one roll you make and turn it to whatever you want once per game. So you roll for the bell and make it 13. The ability is called Oracle of Eternity. Look it up, it's free. Kairos Fatweaver is on Page 17 of the chaos codex, and The Screaming Bell is on page 5 of the Skaven codex. Deploy and declare victory.

You keep saying this, but it is patently false. But I get it troll for the troll god, who cares not but that the troll floweth.

Blkc57
04-07-2015, 23:24
Did you count all of those summoned units as dead at the end? Because unless he wiped you from the board, he's going to have trouble with his 200+% model lost rate.

THIS! I hope people are reading that any summon units automatically count as dead at the end of the game

Blkc57
04-07-2015, 23:26
OH no, it gets worse. Chaos have the Screaming Bell. Roll a 13 on 2d6 and auto-win. But that's impossible you say! Actually it is possible because one of the Chaos hero's (Kairos Fateweaver) allows you take one roll you make and turn it to whatever you want once per game. So you roll for the bell and make it 13. The ability is called Oracle of Eternity. Look it up, it's free. Kairos Fatweaver is on Page 17 of the chaos codex, and The Screaming Bell is on page 5 of the Skaven codex. Deploy and declare victory.

This has been disproved so many times already, only willful ignorance keeps perpetuating this as a legal thing.

LGD
04-07-2015, 23:38
This has been disproved so many times already, only willful ignorance keeps perpetuating this as a legal thing.

It actually hasn't. There have been a lot of people asserting that it doesn't work because "clearly" they couldn't have intended it that way and [insert a bunch of unsupported or incorrect assertions about it being limited to a single die, or limited to physically possible values, or etc]. But guess what? There's no "intention" at work in this "game's" design at all, and while you can argue the language of GW's unclear rules back and forth until the end of time it ultimately doesn't matter. Because even if you remove the autowin exploits like Screaming Bell/Fateweaver and "I have a burnt down shack, gg dude who foolishly deployed multiple models" the rest of the game is so problem filled as to be unsalvageable.

forthegloryofkazadekrund
04-07-2015, 23:40
Take a look at Lizardmen summoning, its crazy

09philj
04-07-2015, 23:51
It actually hasn't..
"no modifiers can beapplied to this roll" They're stupid, but not that stupid.

LGD
04-07-2015, 23:53
THIS! I hope people are reading that any summon units automatically count as dead at the end of the game

They don't, they only count as dead for purposes of determining minor victory if they're actually dead. It's also not hard to table your opponent and achieve a major victory when you can geometrically grow your model count. Unless your opponent took a wizard shack, which will prevent you from ever achieving a major victory. So maybe it is "balanced" :rolleyes:


"no modifiers can beapplied to this roll" They're stupid, but not that stupid.
Oh but they are that stupid- Kairos Fateweaver doesn't apply a modifer to a roll, it sets the roll to any value of my choosing. The roll's result may have been modified from what it originally was, but it hasn't had any modifiers applied, it's been set. This is how it is handled in basically every other game with similar effects, and there is nothing in the rules indicating it would work as you say. You may (rightly) protest that that's inconceivably stupid, and I'd completely agree but I'm pretty confident in the validity of my interpretation. You could invoke the Most Important Rule, but I've got a second Kairos Fateweaver so it turns out I'm unambiguously correct.

Flipmode
04-07-2015, 23:56
This whole game needs a disclaimer :

RAI is the best way to play this ruleset.

Dark_Mage99
05-07-2015, 00:02
OH no, it gets worse. Chaos have the Screaming Bell. Roll a 13 on 2d6 and auto-win. But that's impossible you say! Actually it is possible because one of the Chaos hero's (Kairos Fateweaver) allows you take one roll you make and turn it to whatever you want once per game. So you roll for the bell and make it 13. The ability is called Oracle of Eternity. Look it up, it's free. Kairos Fatweaver is on Page 17 of the chaos codex, and The Screaming Bell is on page 5 of the Skaven codex. Deploy and declare victory.

This is a myth.

Try finding 7 on a D6

El_Commi
05-07-2015, 00:03
Take a look at Lizardmen summoning, its crazy
This.

My friend and I tried to come up with a balanced lizardmen v undead game and kinda gave up.

LGD
05-07-2015, 00:06
This is a myth.

Try finding 7 on a D6

With man this is impossible, but with GW rules writing all things are possible

TheFang
05-07-2015, 00:06
RAI is the best way to play this ruleset.

The rules as intended to play seem to be those from Kings of War.

The disclaimer they need is "Play a game with something resembling a coherent ruleset, not these."

I don't understand why anyone would need to exploit the summon mechanic. Just shovel the units onto the table in set up and as you lose minis then summon them back.

HereComesTomorrow
05-07-2015, 00:08
THIS! I hope people are reading that any summon units automatically count as dead at the end of the game

Unless you deploy so little you get a Sudden Death objective, then summon an army.
Hide you Kairos general at the back of the board, declare auto-victory if he survives then keep him bunkered behind wave after wave of self-replicating units.

WhispersofBlood
05-07-2015, 00:16
Unless you deploy so little you get a Sudden Death objective, then summon an army.
Hide you Kairos general at the back of the board, declare auto-victory if he survives then keep him bunkered behind wave after wave of self-replicating units.

Everyone has access to the cannon war scroll...

isthatnew?
05-07-2015, 00:17
This has been disproved so many times already, only willful ignorance keeps perpetuating this as a legal thing.

How so? Fateweavers ability is not a bonus to a roll it's purely change a roll to whatever you want. It fits both Skaven and Fateweavers fluff, Skaven are cheating to get a 13 roll on 2D6 and Fateweaver is well weaving the fates to get his own outcome. Edit - I've just reread the Bell rules and nowhere does it specify what type of dice you need to roll, roll 2D8 or a D20? Yes I know all GW stuff is D6 based but it does say that to get the roll the sneaky Skaven are cheating as usual. RAW v RAI.

Compared to the bat **** talk to your models and get a reroll, or wear a hoody get a reroll or a staring contest - that could end very badly with some people I know lol - do a dance and get a reroll, Demon Prince summoning a Demon Prince ad infinitum like Russian dolls, AoS has slightly more issues than an auto win combo. A company that gives the bird to a significant percentage of it's customers in the hope of replacing them with new customers as yet undefined and likely from a land far, far away and your trying to second guess intentions in the 'rules' they dropped on us for AoS? Oh management are likely all sat around in Kirbys office sharing a crack pipe right now laughing about how well the pre order day has gone...

Inquisitor Kallus
05-07-2015, 00:20
It actually hasn't. There have been a lot of people asserting that it doesn't work because "clearly" they couldn't have intended it that way and [insert a bunch of unsupported or incorrect assertions about it being limited to a single die, or limited to physically possible values, or etc]. But guess what? There's no "intention" at work in this "game's" design at all, and while you can argue the language of GW's unclear rules back and forth until the end of time it ultimately doesn't matter. Because even if you remove the autowin exploits like Screaming Bell/Fateweaver and "I have a burnt down shack, gg dude who foolishly deployed multiple models" the rest of the game is so problem filled as to be unsalvageable.

Oracle of Eternity: Once per game, you
can change the result of a single dice roll to
the result of your choosing

Yeah im going to change that SINGLE dice roll to 13........

Even if your 2D6 roll counted as a single dice roll (which it wouldnt) then I have some basic maths for you; rolling two SIX SIDED dice will give you a score of between 2 and 12..


It says here my goblin hits on a 5+, but obviously there are no rules to support it as legally binding [insert a bunch of supported or correct assertions about it,etc].
So if I point my goblins spear tip at you, and you blink then my forest Goblin Shaman has done his rain dance spell where I can throw a bucket of spiders at your face whilst dumping a bathtub of water onto the table where any models that end up off the table are dead. I can then proceed to cast foot of Gork where I paint my feet green and jump up and down on the table and whichever models I feel like (for fun innit) crushing them completely. For bonus points I can kick my opponent in the face cos Mork (or Gork) iikes a good fight!


Also, read the rules for 13 result on the screaming bell table, GW just trolled you lol

HereComesTomorrow
05-07-2015, 00:26
Oracle of Eternity: Once per game, you
can change the result of a single dice roll to
the result of your choosing

Yeah im going to change that SINGLE dice roll to 13........

Even if your 2D6 roll counted as a single dice roll (which it wouldnt) then I have some basic maths for you; rolling two SIX SIDED dice will give you a score of between 2 and 12..


Fun fact, you are so far the only person I've seen that has interpreted the rule as only allowing you to change a singlular die. So well done on finding another thing to argue over with that rule.

Everything else you posted sounds like it could well be in the AoS rules. I haven't looked at the O&G document that closely.

HereComesTomorrow
05-07-2015, 00:27
Double post. Yay phones.

isthatnew?
05-07-2015, 00:30
Oracle of Eternity: Once per game, you
can change the result of a single dice roll to
the result of your choosing

Yeah im going to change that SINGLE dice roll to 13........

Even if your 2D6 roll counted as a single dice roll (which it wouldnt) then I have some basic maths for you; rolling two SIX SIDED dice will give you a score of between 2 and 12..


Also, read the rules for 13 result on the screaming bell table, GW just trolled you lol

I choose to turn that second die roll to any number I choose because it's Fateweaver, if I need a 9 on that second die so what? It's fateweaver, it's fluffy, and really, really funny, well as funny as any other of the forced humour mechanics in the 'rules' :p

AngryAngel
05-07-2015, 00:31
Fun fact, you are so far the only person I've seen that has interpreted the rule as only allowing you to change a singlular die. So well done on finding another thing to argue over with that rule.

Everything else you posted sounds like it could well be in the AoS rules. I haven't looked at the O&G document that closely.

I actually thought that was an actual AoS rule, you saying I may have painted my foot green for no reason ?...lame.

Commissar Davis
05-07-2015, 00:31
Oracle of Eternity: Once per game, you
can change the result of a single dice roll to
the result of your choosing

Yeah im going to change that SINGLE dice roll to 13........

Even if your 2D6 roll counted as a single dice roll (which it wouldnt) then I have some basic maths for you; rolling two SIX SIDED dice will give you a score of between 2 and 12..


It says here my goblin hits on a 5+, but obviously there are no rules to support it as legally binding [insert a bunch of supported or correct assertions about it,etc].
So if I point my goblins spear tip at you, and you blink then my forest Goblin Shaman has done his rain dance spell where I can throw a bucket of spiders at your face whilst dumping a bathtub of water onto the table where any models that end up off the table are dead. I can then proceed to cast foot of Gork where I paint my feet green and jump up and down on the table and whichever models I feel like (for fun innit) crushing them completely. For bonus points I can kick my opponent in the face cos Mork (or Gork) iikes a good fight!


Also, read the rules for 13 result on the screaming bell table, GW just trolled you lol

It is clear that you get to choose a result that is possible in the dice and the dice has six sides regardless. You can try to argue that is means something totally different, but then I would ask that you go and take an English language comprehension course.

The language used is clear, some people are just trying to be more clever then they are.

LGD
05-07-2015, 00:33
Oracle of Eternity: Once per game, you
can change the result of a single dice roll to
the result of your choosing

Yeah im going to change that SINGLE dice roll to 13........

Even if your 2D6 roll counted as a single dice roll (which it wouldnt) then I have some basic maths for you; rolling two SIX SIDED dice will give you a score of between 2 and 12..

2d6 is absolutely a single dice roll- would you claim that abilities that allow you to reroll leadership in previous editions only applied to one die? Because those have always been referred to as single rolls, and rolling 2d6 on a chart isn't any different. And the ability simply says you're allowed to pick any result you like, there is nothing restricting this to physically possible results beyond unsupported assertion on your part, and 13 is definitely a roll result that is listed for the screaming bell.

Seriously a lot of you are getting way too worked up over this particular case, it's just convenient shorthand for how ridiculously terrible Age of Sigmar's rules are that makes it apparent to anyone with half a brain. Obviously no one would run this in a real game, but conversely, even if you get everyone to drink the kool-aid and declare that the emperor has clothes, it's not going to stop this collection of rules from being absolutely shockingly terrible in every respect.

Gillburg
05-07-2015, 00:43
It is clear that you get to choose a result that is possible in the dice and the dice has six sides regardless. You can try to argue that is means something totally different, but then I would ask that you go and take an English language comprehension course.

The language used is clear, some people are just trying to be more clever then they are.

Then i would ask you to dance with me for EXTRA DAMAGE, Games ****ed pal let him win 1st turn then have a beer.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7hHx7gdN68

Gillburg
05-07-2015, 00:44
Honestly isn't it the job of a company to create rules that actually work? Ask yourself what if another company did this.

Some people are blaming other players that they are abusing the rules. Im sorry your anger should be vented at the people who made the rules.

My opinion is that game was made to be abused, Buy more models you dork!!! :D

isthatnew?
05-07-2015, 00:44
Posted by Deadthing in the news forum - thanks Deadthing :)

When it comes to ridiculous rules implications within Age of Sigmar, I like this other example mentioned on the Warhammer Forum. It hinges on the following:

- All Chaos Wizards know the spell "Summon Lord of Change". On a 9+, the spell does just what it says.
- A Lord of Change is itself a Chaos Wizard.
- When a Lord of Change casts a spell, it rolls two dice normally; but it then treats both dice as having rolled the higher number of the two (so 2, 5 becomes 5, 5).

Result:

"I started with 1 Lord of Change, which needed a 4+ on either of the 2 dice to summon a 2nd Lord of Change. The 2nd lord of change summoned a 3rd, then another. Then all 4 summoned heralds. That was my first turn."

Inquisitor Kallus
05-07-2015, 00:50
It is clear that you get to choose a result that is possible in the dice and the dice has six sides regardless. You can try to argue that is means something totally different, but then I would ask that you go and take an English language comprehension course.

The language used is clear, some people are just trying to be more clever then they are.

Indeed, I dont know whether my sarcasm came across lol.

Id also like to post the SB rules for 'rolling a 13'

13 Improbable Victory!: Against
all probability and reason, you
immediately win the battle (and
are hereafter branded a cheat –
not that that should bother a true
skaven*general).


Added for giggles no doubt

Col. Tartleton
05-07-2015, 00:53
This entire edition was released for giggles.

I do like the sentiment of Kurt Helborg requiring his player to have a better mustache than the opponent to activate his special rules but that's something you tack on for light hearted alternative rules in an article, you don't make it the official system. As others have said, Magic the Gathering might occasionally put out Unglued but they're not going to replace Magic the Gathering with it.

As an American I get abandoning the Old World for greener pastures in the New World, but this isn't better. No one thinks this is better. The optimists are saying "Well I'll give it a try, I think there might be something to it."

If they wanted to sell Space Marines they could have just said Sigmar rode the lightning out of hell and brought Stormcast Eternals, his Unberogen warriors given new life through the power of the Azyr wind and saved the day at Middenheim and the Empire is saved and the Hordes of Chaos are held back by his magical warriors, until some time passes and the Chaos Gods send "Archaon the Overcosted of Chaos" to try again.

Nicreap
05-07-2015, 01:11
Posted by Deadthing in the news forum - thanks Deadthing :)

When it comes to ridiculous rules implications within Age of Sigmar, I like this other example mentioned on the Warhammer Forum. It hinges on the following:

- All Chaos Wizards know the spell "Summon Lord of Change". On a 9+, the spell does just what it says.
- A Lord of Change is itself a Chaos Wizard.
- When a Lord of Change casts a spell, it rolls two dice normally; but it then treats both dice as having rolled the higher number of the two (so 2, 5 becomes 5, 5).

Result:

"I started with 1 Lord of Change, which needed a 4+ on either of the 2 dice to summon a 2nd Lord of Change. The 2nd lord of change summoned a 3rd, then another. Then all 4 summoned heralds. That was my first turn."

Actually, he needs a 5+ not a 4+, but if he wanted to do that fine by me, as long as the has all those models, if he items three lords of change and four additional heralds, go ahead let him summon them, they count against him when
They die unless he can table you. And I'd he spent then money to own four lords of change just to do that, he clearly wants to win way to much.

Dark_Mage99
05-07-2015, 01:20
2d6 is absolutely a single dice roll- would you claim that abilities that allow you to reroll leadership in previous editions only applied to one die? Because those have always been referred to as single rolls, and rolling 2d6 on a chart isn't any different. And the ability simply says you're allowed to pick any result you like, there is nothing restricting this to physically possible results beyond unsupported assertion on your part, and 13 is definitely a roll result that is listed for the screaming bell.

Seriously a lot of you are getting way too worked up over this particular case, it's just convenient shorthand for how ridiculously terrible Age of Sigmar's rules are that makes it apparent to anyone with half a brain. Obviously no one would run this in a real game, but conversely, even if you get everyone to drink the kool-aid and declare that the emperor has clothes, it's not going to stop this collection of rules from being absolutely shockingly terrible in every respect.

I'd say to treat it as anything other than a single D6 (which is what it's always been in the past, no?) is pretty dodgy.

Rolling 2d6 is a single roll? What about 30d6 then? You want to make that 30 6s to hit?

No... a single dice role is a single dice roll.

LGD
05-07-2015, 01:38
I'd say to treat it as anything other than a single D6 (which is what it's always been in the past, no?) is pretty dodgy.

Rolling 2d6 is a single roll? What about 30d6 then? You want to make that 30 6s to hit?

No... a single dice role is a single dice roll.

Nah, the Age of Sigmar rules are dodgy, and so is your interpretation. There is nothing dodgy at all about asserting the Oracle of Eternity ability can affect more than 1d6.

A single dice roll is a single dice roll, which is to say it is a single role of the dice. "Dice" is plural, and a "dice roll" is a roll of one or more dice to [do thing] in a game. It works like this in any game you care to think of- Warmachine uses 2 or more d6 as a single dice roll for everything, GURPS uses 3d6 as a single dice roll similarly, the Warhammer RPGs use 2d10s as percentile dice as a single dice roll, the Warhammer Fantasy and 40k tabletop games use 2d6 as a single dice roll for leadership, use multiple dice on various random tables as single rolls for special effects, and similarly use multiple dice as part of a roll for determining scatter. In all cases where another ability allows you to reroll one of these dice rolls, or set the dice roll to a certain value it affects the entire roll regardless of how many dice are actually being used. If something is letting you do more finicky dice tricks it'll specify that it allows you to reroll a single die (or one or more dice) of your chosing. This isn't even remotely controversial, and the only reason anyone would dispute this it is because they're trying to find some way to justify these rules as being in some way well-designed and coherent. They aren't, and the sooner you see the game for what it is the happier you'll be.

Col. Tartleton
05-07-2015, 01:44
1D6 or 2D6 or 3D6 is a single roll of the dice.

Rolling 30 individual 1D6 at the same time is not.

The Screaming Bell lets you make a dice roll consisting of two dice. A melee attack on the other hand is a 1D6 roll. So even if you decide to roll 15 melee attacks together to save time you've looking for individual successes, not a singular success for the lot of them.

Kairos doesn't let you change the result of a single die. He lets you change the result of a single dice roll. Not the same thing.

isthatnew?
05-07-2015, 01:47
And the amount of time and effort people have expended over debating this single interpretation of a possible combination of rules is the perfect example of all that is wrong with AoS. If one rule can take up pages of debate how are we supposed to decide what to take in a full army list?

i was hopeful that scrolls were the answer to the puzzle of AoS 4 page rules but it would seem sadly not to be. We have Dreadfleet MkII :(

qqniox
05-07-2015, 01:51
Actually, he needs a 5+ not a 4+, but if he wanted to do that fine by me, as long as the has all those models, if he items three lords of change and four additional heralds, go ahead let him summon them, they count against him when
They die unless he can table you. And I'd he spent then money to own four lords of change just to do that, he clearly wants to win way to much.

Lord of Change has a command ability called "Beacon of Sorcery" that increases all casting rolls for Tzeentch daemon wizards within 18" by 1. So any casting roll of 4(or more) give you at least 9 on the roll.
Now if the new Lord of change also use the Beacon of Sorcery, in the same phase, and the ability stack...

I find the amount of summoning possible in AoS is quite absurd, especially if this new system aims play smaller, more scenario-driven games, then the warhammer of old.

qqniox
05-07-2015, 01:56
1D6 or 2D6 or 3D6 is a single roll of the dice.

Rolling 30 individual 1D6 at the same time is not.

The Screaming Bell lets you make a dice roll consisting of two dice. A melee attack on the other hand is a 1D6 roll. So even if you decide to roll 15 melee attacks together to save time you've looking for individual successes, not a singular success for the lot of them.

Kairos doesn't let you change the result of a single die. He lets you change the result of a single dice roll. Not the same thing.

Even if itīs only one dice it wont change anything with the Screaming Bell if one goes by the full extenct of changing the result of a singel dice roll to any possible number.
Rolled a 5 and a 3? Make it 5 and 8 = 13.

DVeight
05-07-2015, 02:02
And the amount of time and effort people have expended over debating this single interpretation of a possible combination of rules is the perfect example of all that is wrong with AoS. If one rule can take up pages of debate how are we supposed to decide what to take in a full army list?

i was hopeful that scrolls were the answer to the puzzle of AoS 4 page rules but it would seem sadly not to be. We have Dreadfleet MkII :(

This is not a reflection of the rules themselves, rather it is a reflection of our inability to understand the English language when it is simple though difficult for us accept its simplicity. We look for something that is not there to connect the missing pieces in our minds. In addition, looks like a good number didn't note the intended humour by GW which is all it was. There wont be any FAQ, hopefully a statement from GW telling you guys that some of these elements were just their version of "Easter Eggs" that have no mechanical application in the game.

3eland
05-07-2015, 02:10
And the amount of time and effort people have expended over debating this single interpretation of a possible combination of rules is the perfect example of all that is wrong with AoS. If one rule can take up pages of debate how are we supposed to decide what to take in a full army list?

i was hopeful that scrolls were the answer to the puzzle of AoS 4 page rules but it would seem sadly not to be. We have Dreadfleet MkII :(

Have you seen all the rule debates from 8th? The ones that go on for 15 + pages over a single wording of an item?

LGD
05-07-2015, 02:13
This is not a reflection of the rules themselves, rather it is a reflection of our inability to understand the English language when it is simple though difficult for us accept its simplicity. We look for something that is not there to connect the missing pieces in our minds. In addition, looks like a good number didn't note the intended humour by GW which is all it was. There wont be any FAQ, hopefully a statement from GW telling you guys that some of these elements were just their version of "Easter Eggs" that have no mechanical application in the game.

Everybody saw the intended "humor", but the intention doesn't really matter because this "funny" "Easter Egg" literally introduces a game ending mechanical exploit, which is absolutely a reflection on the rules themselves. The people who think the combo works aren't doing anything but reading the plain language, while every attempt to "disprove" the combo involves the insertion of outside assumptions. The Screaming Bell says if you get a result of 13 on a single roll you win, and Fateweaver lets you change the result of a single roll to whatever you want. Combining the two lets you pick a result of 13, so you win- that's it, that's all there is, and its all there in plain English. There is nothing in the rules, stated or implied, that would prevent you from doing this. Most people won't, just like they won't use a Watchtower to win vs. someone foolish enough to play with 2 or more actual models, but that's a function of people wanting to turn this garbage pile into something resembling a functional game that lets them play with their expensive miniatures, not a function of the rules (which are in no way good).

Voss
05-07-2015, 02:15
This whole game needs a disclaimer :

RAI is the best way to play this ruleset.

Good luck guessing what that is. That could be a game in itself, and would probably be more fun

march10k
05-07-2015, 02:19
Spiney, there is no point, that is the point. You go in troop light, have an easy win condition, then summon up double or triple and an army, win then ride those triumphs through all your other games, ever. The point of AoS is it ends.

Honestly, the system is so fubared, you might as well just make a totally random chart and just use that for everything including attacks and you'd be about at the same level. While play acting as a goblin, drinking ale disco dancing with Nagash who is riding an invisible horse, that happens to have an impressive beard and a very masculine and impressive mustache.

Kurt's 'stache is better :P

eron12
05-07-2015, 02:25
I'd say to treat it as anything other than a single D6 (which is what it's always been in the past, no?) is pretty dodgy.

Rolling 2d6 is a single roll? What about 30d6 then? You want to make that 30 6s to hit?

No... a single dice role is a single dice roll.

It says "dice" roll, not "die" roll. If anything the argument should be if it is possible to use it on a 1d6 roll at all.

Mawduce
05-07-2015, 02:49
Everybody saw the intended "humor", but the intention doesn't really matter because this "funny" "Easter Egg" literally introduces a game ending mechanical exploit, which is absolutely a reflection on the rules themselves. The people who think the combo works aren't doing anything but reading the plain language, while every attempt to "disprove" the combo involves the insertion of outside assumptions. The Screaming Bell says if you get a result of 13 on a single roll you win, and Fateweaver lets you change the result of a single roll to whatever you want. Combining the two lets you pick a result of 13, so you win- that's it, that's all there is, and its all there in plain English. There is nothing in the rules, stated or implied, that would prevent you from doing this. Most people won't, just like they won't use a Watchtower to win vs. someone foolish enough to play with 2 or more actual models, but that's a function of people wanting to turn this garbage pile into something resembling a functional game that lets them play with their expensive miniatures, not a function of the rules (which are in no way good).

This is the heart of it all right here. No one that says this combo is doable agrees it should be fielded, nor does anyone make claim against rules as intended. The issue is the what the words come out to. I'm sure either two separate groups made both set of rules without communicating to each other, or they forgot all the funny stuff they put into the rules and this is the result. Sure it was meant to be funny and I had a laugh over it too, but RAW state this is possible.

DVeight
05-07-2015, 02:55
Everybody saw the intended "humor", but the intention doesn't really matter because this "funny" "Easter Egg" literally introduces a game ending mechanical exploit, which is absolutely a reflection on the rules themselves. The people who think the combo works aren't doing anything but reading the plain language, while every attempt to "disprove" the combo involves the insertion of outside assumptions. The Screaming Bell says if you get a result of 13 on a single roll you win, and Fateweaver lets you change the result of a single roll to whatever you want. Combining the two lets you pick a result of 13, so you win- that's it, that's all there is, and its all there in plain English. There is nothing in the rules, stated or implied, that would prevent you from doing this. Most people won't, just like they won't use a Watchtower to win vs. someone foolish enough to play with 2 or more actual models, but that's a function of people wanting to turn this garbage pile into something resembling a functional game that lets them play with their expensive miniatures, not a function of the rules (which are in no way good).


Its going to be a case of the ever revolving wheel. We are just going to go around in circles. One camp will argue that a mechanic has been introduced in the game, the other will see it for what it is. There are problems with these rules, this one isn't one of them. I don't dispute what is said on the Sreaming Bell scroll. What I dispute is your assertion that a result of 13 can be achieved on a 2D6 dice roll. Its a mathematical impossibility. You can roll those 2D6 for an eternity and you will NEVER get 13. Now you're trying to ram another models scroll with this one to match up against the 13, which once again for the kids..... IS A MATHEMATICAL IMPOSSIBILITY!!!!

Kairos can change the result of a single dice roll to the result of my choosing. Now you are all trying to meta here and think you're gloriously smart when in effect its a laugh. Should ask yourself first "How can I change the result of something into something that is beyond the capacity of the item providing the result?" The simple answer is "I cant"

How can you change the single dice result into anything beyond what the die itself cannot achieve? A single die cannot give you a result of 0 or 7 or anything other than 1-6. Yet all of you want to claim you can make it whatever you want, smashing any logical principle into something that is just humanely and scientifically not possible. Yet, you will all continue to ignore all the other words and sentences and focus only on the wording "of your choosing".

Apply 'Occam's razor' principle here and you will sleep better tonight.

PurpleSun
05-07-2015, 02:57
The rules as intended to play seem to be those from Kings of War.

The disclaimer they need is "Play a game with something resembling a coherent ruleset, not these."

I don't understand why anyone would need to exploit the summon mechanic. Just shovel the units onto the table in set up and as you lose minis then summon them back.

I should have added that we agreed to play army lists with 100 wounds each. I managed to tear him up with my Ironguts, and killed a Khorne Herald on a Juggernaut, two units of 10 pink horrors, and a unit of four flamers. He then proceeded to summon back all four units over two turns with his Herald of Tzeentch. And he also proceeded to shoot me with those darn Pink Horrors the turn he summoned them, in addition to doing the chain summoning. He won by attrition. The victory conditions say that if he kills everyone of my models, he wins automatically, without having to count percentages of models killed. I did have the Assassinate sudden death condition, which he put on his Bloodthirster. I lost all my missile troops before I had the chance to kill the Bloodthirster.

LGD
05-07-2015, 03:11
Its going to be a case of the ever revolving wheel. We are just going to go around in circles. One camp will argue that a mechanic has been introduced in the game, the other will see it for what it is. There are problems with these rules, this one isn't one of them. I don't dispute what is said on the Sreaming Bell scroll. What I dispute is your assertion that a result of 13 can be achieved on a 2D6 dice roll. Its a mathematical impossibility. You can roll those 2D6 for an eternity and you will NEVER get 13. Now you're trying to ram another models scroll with this one to match up against the 13, which once again for the kids..... IS A MATHEMATICAL IMPOSSIBILITY!!!!

Kairos can change the result of a single dice roll to the result of my choosing. Now you are all trying to meta here and think you're gloriously smart when in effect its a laugh. Should ask yourself first "How can I change the result of something into something that is beyond the capacity of the item providing the result?" The simple answer is "I cant"

How can you change the single dice result into anything beyond what the die itself cannot achieve? A single die cannot give you a result of 0 or 7 or anything other than 1-6. Yet all of you want to claim you can make it whatever you want, smashing any logical principle into something that is just humanely and scientifically not possible. Yet, you will all continue to ignore all the other words and sentences and focus only on the wording "of your choosing".

Apply 'Occam's razor' principle here and you will sleep better tonight.

Wow I'm shocked and amazed to discover that 2d6 will give you a result on a curve between 2 and 12. Shocked. Now please point to the part of the Kairos Fateweaver Warscroll or the basic rules that indicates "the result of my choosing" needs to be something that is physically achievable on 2d6. Oh, it doesn't exist, it's an external limitation you're imposing because you can't fathom that the rules are as bad as they actually are. I choose 13 because the result of a dice roll is an abstract numeric value, and a result of "13" is one that has explicit rules support. That's the plain English reading, and applying 'Occam's Razor' leads to exactly my interpretation. What is more likely- that this ruleset, which by all indications was thrown together with a complete absence of care for good game design has an inadvertent (or deliberately malicious) instant win combo that is written into it in plain English? Or that this aspect alone was thought through carefully by the game designers, who nonetheless decided to introduce super unclear wording that allows reasonable people to come to the conclusion that an instant win combo exists? I'm gonna say the "the designers of this are really bad at their job and there was no meaningful editorial oversight" is by far the more parsimonious explanation.

DVeight
05-07-2015, 03:26
Wow I'm shocked and amazed to discover that 2d6 will give you a result on a curve between 2 and 12. Shocked. Now please point to the part of the Kairos Fateweaver Warscroll or the basic rules that indicates "the result of my choosing" needs to be something that is physically achievable on 2d6. Oh, it doesn't exist, it's an external limitation you're imposing because you can't fathom that the rules are as bad as they actually are. I choose 13 because the result of a dice roll is an abstract numeric value, and a result of "13" is one that has explicit rules support. That's the plain English reading, and applying 'Occam's Razor' leads to exactly my interpretation. What is more likely- that this ruleset, which by all indications was thrown together with a complete absence of care for good game design has an inadvertent (or deliberately malicious) instant win combo that is written into it in plain English? Or that this aspect alone was thought through carefully by the game designers, who nonetheless decided to introduce super unclear wording that allows reasonable people to come to the conclusion that an instant win combo exists? I'm gonna say the "the designers of this are really bad at their job and there was no meaningful editorial oversight" is by far the more parsimonious explanation.

How the fark can a numeric value of a dice roll be abstract?? The numeric value of a D6 die result is finite. That is you will only ever get a result of 1-6..... never anything else. But I am arguing with a brick wall that doesn't get it. I have better things to do with my Sunday

Kisanis
05-07-2015, 03:40
the screaming bell says that if you get a 13 you are a cheater. You may be ok with being an admitted cheater, but you are stille cheating.
That said, go ahead and use your fateweaver combo - you got a 13? Rules as written, thats cheating.
Cheating isn't fun (unless you agree beforehand)

First rule written in the game, have fun.
fateweaver+Screamingbell result of 13 = cheating
Cheating != Fun
Fun = most important rule

QED.

And I'm a skaven player.

LGD
05-07-2015, 03:42
How the fark can a numeric value of a dice roll be abstract?? The numeric value of a D6 die result is finite. That is you will only ever get a result of 1-6..... never anything else. But I am arguing with a brick wall that doesn't get it. I have better things to do with my Sunday
Evidence suggests otherwise. ;)

And you should really try reading my posts more closely since I obviously understand what you're saying and disagree.

The number shown on any die is a concrete fact but the numeric *result* of a roll is abstract and this is fairly self evident when you think about how rolls are used in various games. Think about how modifiers work. This isn't a modifier, but in some ways it works similarly where the end results are concerned. Most games limit you to actually possible values when choosing a result, but that's because most games are much better designed.

Tichey
05-07-2015, 04:19
I took the summoning to require you to already have some of those troops to summon more. The summoning spell is on the troops warscroll not the wizards and if you don't have the troops on the field you dont have access to the warscroll and in turn the extra spell listed on it. That said I still think its broken op, especially the relative ease it takes to summon greater daemons and the like.

PurpleSun
05-07-2015, 04:58
I took the summoning to require you to already have some of those troops to summon more. The summoning spell is on the troops warscroll not the wizards and if you don't have the troops on the field you dont have access to the warscroll and in turn the extra spell listed on it. That said I still think its broken op, especially the relative ease it takes to summon greater daemons and the like.

That's the first time I have heard someone argue that your chaos wizard does not have access to the Summon Pink Horrors spell unless a unit of Pink Horrors are already in play. The warscroll says "Chaos Wizards know the Summon Pink Horrors spell, in addition to any others they know." I don't see why you would already have to have a unit in play for a Chaos Wizard to know that spell. It does not say "This unit gives any Chaos Wizard on the battlefield the ability to cast the Summon Pink Horror spell".

Mawduce
05-07-2015, 04:59
Wow I'm shocked and amazed to discover that 2d6 will give you a result on a curve between 2 and 12. Shocked. Now please point to the part of the Kairos Fateweaver Warscroll or the basic rules that indicates "the result of my choosing" needs to be something that is physically achievable on 2d6. Oh, it doesn't exist, it's an external limitation you're imposing because you can't fathom that the rules are as bad as they actually are. I choose 13 because the result of a dice roll is an abstract numeric value, and a result of "13" is one that has explicit rules support. That's the plain English reading, and applying 'Occam's Razor' leads to exactly my interpretation. What is more likely- that this ruleset, which by all indications was thrown together with a complete absence of care for good game design has an inadvertent (or deliberately malicious) instant win combo that is written into it in plain English? Or that this aspect alone was thought through carefully by the game designers, who nonetheless decided to introduce super unclear wording that allows reasonable people to come to the conclusion that an instant win combo exists? I'm gonna say the "the designers of this are really bad at their job and there was no meaningful editorial oversight" is by far the more parsimonious explanation.

Lets also point out that it isn't the Bell that's broken, it's Fateweaver. Under normal circumstances the Bell will never achieve a roll of 13 because as you said, 2d6 can never become a 13 unmodified. HOWEVER, Fateweaver bypasses all that by choosing what the dice mean. He could say they equal 0 or 1 Million for all the player cares to declare. There is no minimum or maximum given to his design.

13 on the Bell is also called "improbable victory" that doesn't mean impossible. It merely means under normal circumstances you would suffer defeat, but because of this one dues ex machine thing you won.

PurpleSun
05-07-2015, 05:12
Well, I really wanted to have a discussion about summoning units, but all anyone wants to talk about is whether Kairos can change a die roll to 13. Bummer.

Mawduce
05-07-2015, 05:20
Well, I really wanted to have a discussion about summoning units, but all anyone wants to talk about is whether Kairos can change a die roll to 13. Bummer.

Kairos can guarantee the endless loop of summoning will continue for at least 1 cast if you play it that way.

EDIT: Plus there is no limit to the number of Kairos I can take if you follow the rules. I can take how many of whatever I want. Lets say I take a Prince and enough of Kairos to just keep you from having sudden death rules. I then use my hero phase to begin summoning. I use each Kairos to prevent the loop of summoning from ending till I run out of Kairos. That could be 5 times, 20 times, 40 times... who knows.

Spiney Norman
05-07-2015, 09:06
I choose to turn that second die roll to any number I choose because it's Fateweaver, if I need a 9 on that second die so what? It's fateweaver, it's fluffy, and really, really funny, well as funny as any other of the forced humour mechanics in the 'rules' :p

Great, just keep turning that six-sided dice until you find the '9' result on it and then you'll have a workable argument.

Seriously anyone who seriously thinks that Fateweaver can change the result of a 2D6 roll to equal 13 is part of the reason they went with such an open rules set in the first place, if there weren't so many people desperately trying to break the game maybe they wouldn't be marketing a rules set that comes pre-broken.

The summon circle is easily broken, just house rule that a summoned wizard cannot cast spells on the turn he is summoned, it's really not that hard.

The bearded one
05-07-2015, 09:47
AoS doesn't have a competitive bone in its body. It's simply not made for it. After browsing the lizardmen pdf I saw that a Slann can summon an entire lizardmen army by himself.

innerwolf
05-07-2015, 09:55
I'm amazed at the "try to break AoS rules to prove it sucks" trolls. So intending you to follow basic logic and reading " choose any result in a dice roll" as "any possible result" is an unreasonable external assumption? I would say reading it as "you can choose any result from 0 to infinite, breaking the whole game" is a lot more unreasonable.


I took the summoning to require you to already have some of those troops to summon more. The summoning spell is on the troops warscroll not the wizards and if you don't have the troops on the field you dont have access to the warscroll and in turn the extra spell listed on it. That said I still think its broken op, especially the relative ease it takes to summon greater daemons and the like.

I also understood it that way. You use the scroll in which the spell appears, wizards get the spell. Maybe that interpretation is dodgy, but at least it helps balance the game.

Thinking about it, some Wood Elf and Tomb Kings scrolls include spells to heal the unit. If you don't include the unit, why would wizards need the spell anyway?

underscore
05-07-2015, 09:56
HOWEVER, Fateweaver bypasses all that by choosing what the dice mean. He could say they equal 0 or 1 Million for all the player cares to declare. There is no minimum or maximum given to his design.
This (and it's ilk) is possibly the stupidest interpretation I've ever read on a rules discussion, and makes me feel sad.

Tokamak
05-07-2015, 09:58
Oh but they are that stupid- Kairos Fateweaver doesn't apply a modifer to a roll, it sets the roll to any value of my choosing.

The Triumph Table in the core rules says the same

THE TRIUMPH TABLE
Roll Triumph
1-2 Blessed: You can change the result
of a single dice to the result of your
choosing once during the battle.

3-4 Inspired: You can re-roll all of the
failed hit rolls for one unit in your
army in one combat phase.

5-6 Empowered: Add 1 to your
general’s Wounds characteristic

I'm starting to think that they did the Screaming Bell rule on purpose, more than a silly joke but also an easter egg exploit. It's no coincidence that both Kairos and the Triumph table have this mechanic. It's almost as if they wanted us to connect the dots together.

Shadeseraph
05-07-2015, 10:13
Saying that something "breaks the game" implies that the game is, at some point, not broken.

Whirlwind
05-07-2015, 10:15
So basically we have come down to the conclusion that the winner is determined by who gets the highest roll on the first turn?

Harwammer
05-07-2015, 10:36
I'm not sure if anyone mentioned yet, but the basic rules (I know there is a whole four pages to read so its hard to remember every detail) define the dice used in the game are six sided dice. It never defines the values on each side.

I mean if you really want to cheat (or not cheat) you could just use a dice with 6 sides but different numbers to normal.

While its fun to debate these 'cheats' I don't think anyone would actually 'seriously'* do it in the game.

*serious is totally the wrong word for AoS :D.

Griefbringer
05-07-2015, 11:02
So if I point my goblins spear tip at you, and you blink then my forest Goblin Shaman has done his rain dance spell where I can throw a bucket of spiders at your face whilst dumping a bathtub of water onto the table where any models that end up off the table are dead. I can then proceed to cast foot of Gork where I paint my feet green and jump up and down on the table and whichever models I feel like (for fun innit) crushing them completely.

I was under the impression that the Foot of Gork allows you only a single STOMPAAAARGH!!! attack and with only one of your feet, so there might not be need to paint both of them green - just the one that you use for the attack.

Also a word of warning: many of the Warhammer models feature spiky implements pointing in various directions, so you might want to check out your medical insurance before committing any Foot of Gork attacks on certain opponents. Especially the plastic chaos dwarves from the 90's are likely to get you hospitalised if you choose to stomp on them, though there are also other hazards like Chaos Space Sigmarines.

Also, I haven't checked if the giant still has the special attack where he gets to pick up an enemy model and stuff it to pants, but I would be again careful with that one - otherwise the good doctor may be about to rise a few questions about how you managed to injure yourself by ramming your opponents chaos sorceror lord on twin-headed chaos dragon into your pants, followed by a WAARGH!!! dance to whip your savage orruks into frenzy.

GW lawyers are likely to deny any liability for damages incurred, pointing out that the attack modes in question were entirely optional, and that the player was not forced to use them by the rules as written.

(Also, my signature should not be taken as any form of encouragement to harm yourself with your model collection - or that of your opponent.)

Deadhorse
05-07-2015, 11:27
I see the kairos & bell thing ends in a RAW vs RAI argument, so I have a much better idea for a game.
Also, summoning units that can summon is a weak combo.

I propose a far better option.

You need: 1 kairos, 1 chaos lord, a box of 180 chaos knights and a chaos troll.

At the beginning of the game, you can hide the box with knights to achieve the element of surprise.
Deploy Kairos and chaos lord. You will likely go first and get to choose a sudden death condition.

In the first round, roll a dice (change the result to 4+ if needed with kairos).
Deploy as many chaos knights as possible within 5" of the 72" opponents table edge.

If you want to play fair, 5*72" means you can fit 180 chaos knights (with a 2 inch sq. base area) along the opponents' table edge. You could probably build a bigger pile using the "bases don't count" rules, but you probably don't need to.

The knights move 10" so you can pretty much position them to enagage the entire enemy army from behind. Have some hornblowers for that minimum 3" charge range.

In combat, your knights will activate first. Use pile-in moves to engage as much of the enemy army as possible.

180 charging chaos knights do 510 wounds (before saves) if you can get them all to attack, which is difficult but maybe possible if you model them to have outstretched lances.

If any enemy units survive the first two rounds of engagement, it is probably good form to summon your single chaos troll in the following turn.

Whirlwind
05-07-2015, 11:38
You forgot to bring some Bthirsters along. Kairos needs something else to do after he has used his ability doesn't he and attempting two summon two Bthirsters per round is perfectly legal (and each chance has a 50:50) chance of going through. After all its perfectly within the background that a Tzeentch G Daemon could persuade lots of BTs to do his bidding!

The more issues people throw up the more borked I think this game is...

forthegloryofkazadekrund
05-07-2015, 12:55
I see the kairos & bell thing ends in a RAW vs RAI argument, so I have a much better idea for a game.
Also, summoning units that can summon is a weak combo.

I propose a far better option.

You need: 1 kairos, 1 chaos lord, a box of 180 chaos knights and a chaos troll.

At the beginning of the game, you can hide the box with knights to achieve the element of surprise.
Deploy Kairos and chaos lord. You will likely go first and get to choose a sudden death condition.

In the first round, roll a dice (change the result to 4+ if needed with kairos).
Deploy as many chaos knights as possible within 5" of the 72" opponents table edge.

If you want to play fair, 5*72" means you can fit 180 chaos knights (with a 2 inch sq. base area) along the opponents' table edge. You could probably build a bigger pile using the "bases don't count" rules, but you probably don't need to.

The knights move 10" so you can pretty much position them to enagage the entire enemy army from behind. Have some hornblowers for that minimum 3" charge range.

In combat, your knights will activate first. Use pile-in moves to engage as much of the enemy army as possible.

180 charging chaos knights do 510 wounds (before saves) if you can get them all to attack, which is difficult but maybe possible if you model them to have outstretched lances.

If any enemy units survive the first two rounds of engagement, it is probably good form to summon your single chaos troll in the following turn.

WOOOOOOOW, just another example of how broken the game is

Orrinocco
05-07-2015, 13:39
Great, just keep turning that six-sided dice until you find the '9' result on it and then you'll have a workable argument.



The rules do not state that you must turn the dice to the result you have chosen, so you can choose any value, even if it is not on the face of the die.

Any other interpretation that you have is just that - interpreting the spirit of the rules, not following the actual (very badly) written substance of them

The game Munchkin explicitly states that when you pick the result of the dice roll, you must turn the dice to that value just to avoid this sort of games lawyership.

Flipmode
05-07-2015, 14:17
The rules do not state that you must turn the dice to the result you have chosen, so you can choose any value, even if it is not on the face of the die.

Any other interpretation that you have is just that - interpreting the spirit of the rules, not following the actual (very badly) written substance of them

The game Munchkin explicitly states that when you pick the result of the dice roll, you must turn the dice to that value just to avoid this sort of games lawyership.

Cannon hits unit of 180 Knights. Use Kairos to make the result 10,000 wounds. Game over.

Can we give up on who can make the most pointless interpretation of rules to make a broken army? That really isn't the point.

Any list you can come up with can be trumped. The idea is to come up with an army which will create an interesting battle. We are no longer in the realms of max-cheese, because cheese is infinite.

swordofglass
05-07-2015, 14:58
Who cares? I for one would be extremely relieved if my opponent used Kairos to get number 13 (i.e. changing the result of one dice to whatever was required to make the total 13). Then we could both play a different game, such as 8th edition.

Pink Horror
07-07-2015, 02:00
Cannon hits unit of 180 Knights. Use Kairos to make the result 10,000 wounds. Game over.

Can we give up on who can make the most pointless interpretation of rules to make a broken army? That really isn't the point.

Any list you can come up with can be trumped. The idea is to come up with an army which will create an interesting battle. We are no longer in the realms of max-cheese, because cheese is infinite.
Please, just one more:

Deploy Kairos alone. Change the result of his first roll to "I automatically win". If it doesn't have to be a possible result of the dice, why limit yourself to numbers?

qqniox
07-07-2015, 02:31
Or deploy Kairos. Change the roll during a roll-off for "the most important rule".

Or if you play with Daemons, Beastmen and Lizardmen on the same side of a battle:
Great Bray-shaman can summon a monster with savage dominion, which kairos also knows if hes within 18.
Kairos is a monster and can therefor summon another copy of himself on a roll of 7+ (secrets and ciphers) and also present is a lizardmen Engine of the gods.
Kairos uses his "oracle of eternity" to change the Cosmic engine-effect on the engine of the gods to 18+ and thereby gaining another turn.
Next turn summon another kairos who uses the "oracle of eternity" ability to repeat the cosmic engine. Stay outside of 18 from enemy wizards and they cant stop your spellcasting.
And so you can play the entire game by yourself without you opponent gets a single turn, enabling him/her to do something more entertaining.

Vladyhell
07-07-2015, 02:45
I took the summoning to require you to already have some of those troops to summon more. The summoning spell is on the troops warscroll not the wizards and if you don't have the troops on the field you dont have access to the warscroll and in turn the extra spell listed on it. That said I still think its broken op, especially the relative ease it takes to summon greater daemons and the like.

Yup,wizards only know the summoning spell of a particular unit if you took that warscroll for that unit in your army.If I don't take the warscroll for Fell Bats my Necromancer can't summon them whereas if I have taken a warscroll of black knights my necromancer can summon them back if they die or I have more black knight models to bring into play.

Nicreap
07-07-2015, 02:59
Or deploy Kairos. Change the roll during a roll-off for "the most important rule".

Or if you play with Daemons, Beastmen and Lizardmen on the same side of a battle:
Great Bray-shaman can summon a monster with savage dominion, which kairos also knows if hes within 18.
Kairos is a monster and can therefor summon another copy of himself on a roll of 7+ (secrets and ciphers) and also present is a lizardmen Engine of the gods.
Kairos uses his "oracle of eternity" to change the Cosmic engine-effect on the engine of the gods to 18+ and thereby gaining another turn.
Next turn summon another kairos who uses the "oracle of eternity" ability to repeat the cosmic engine. Stay outside of 18 from enemy wizards and they cant stop your spellcasting.
And so you can play the entire game by yourself without you opponent gets a single turn, enabling him/her to do something more entertaining.


Did you read the engine of the Gods rule? you can't get more than one free turn, if during your free turn you get another 18 on the engine of the gods it becomes the 15-17 results, so no endless turns.


Lord of Change has a command ability called "Beacon of Sorcery" that increases all casting rolls for Tzeentch daemon wizards within 18" by 1. So any casting roll of 4(or more) give you at least 9 on the roll.
Now if the new Lord of change also use the Beacon of Sorcery, in the same phase, and the ability stack...

That won't work, command abilities, except for a few rare exceptions, can only be used by your general and only once per turn, so no stacking beacon of sorcery.

qqniox
07-07-2015, 03:11
Did you read the engine of the Gods rule? you can't get more than one free turn, if during your free turn you get another 18 on the engine of the gods it becomes the 15-17 results, so no endless turns.



That won't work, command abilities, except for a few rare exceptions, can only be used by your general and only once per turn, so no stacking beacon of sorcery.


On the same turn yes. But i dont use cosmic engine more then one time every turn. I use it, get another completly new turn, and on this new turn use it again. There is nothing preventing it.
Regarding stacking Beacon of sorcery Archaons command ability allow you to use every models command ability in the army, general or not, so you can use every lord of change command ability on the same turn, and therby stacking it.
Completly broken? yes. ofcourse. But still possible with the current rules.

Ayin
07-07-2015, 03:31
AoS doesn't have a competitive bone in its body. It's simply not made for it. After browsing the lizardmen pdf I saw that a Slann can summon an entire lizardmen army by himself.

I agree with this. It's going to take people some time to deal with it, but the game is set up so that, if you want to win it, you WILL win it. There are so many ways to do so, hilariously silly ways, that if both people don't show up to the game with not only similar forces, but also a similar goal to 'have fun' and make sure NOT to do anything more-ridiculous than their opponent.

The game isn't MADE to TRY and WIN, it's made to try and play a game.

mrknify
08-07-2015, 20:13
It was my understanding that a wizard who can summon, can not summon unless you have a unit in play to use the summon from its warscroll.

mrknify
08-07-2015, 20:15
You keep saying this, but it is patently false. But I get it troll for the troll god, who cares not but that the troll floweth.
There are some comments on this from beasts of war and test it is true and GW knows and says good on you for doing it.

Ayin
08-07-2015, 20:28
It was my understanding that a wizard who can summon, can not summon unless you have a unit in play to use the summon from its warscroll.

That seems to be the hope of a (to borrow a term from GW) vocal minority online for reasons of 'game balance'. There are some fairly solid counter arguments though.

mrknify
08-07-2015, 20:31
That seems to be the hope of a (to borrow a term from GW) vocal minority online for reasons of 'game balance'. There are some fairly solid counter arguments though.
I agree,I've been looking at playing my undead with this system. To me since the summon ability is only on a unit warscroll not the castors, you must include at least one unit to gain that ability.

hdctambien
08-07-2015, 20:41
Yup,wizards only know the summoning spell of a particular unit if you took that warscroll for that unit in your army.If I don't take the warscroll for Fell Bats my Necromancer can't summon them whereas if I have taken a warscroll of black knights my necromancer can summon them back if they die or I have more black knight models to bring into play.

What does it mean "to take" a warscroll? I'm "taking" all my warscrolls, and then during deployment when "I have setup all the units that I want to fight in this battle" the rest are "held in reserve, playing no part unless fate lends a hand." In this case, "fate" will happen when I summon them.

madden
08-07-2015, 21:28
Just make sure you/your opponant dosent summon more than is alowed in the spell, for monsters its 1(unless theres a description ive missed) but the little guys are restricted to a max size unit if summoned generally 10. As they say in sales its all in the fine print.
As to the unit being needed first for summoning another i can see it both ways as the scrolls contain all the rules for that unit so if no unit no spell but it also says certain wizards no these spells so which one. I think the most important rule applies here.(preferable before battle starts).

Urgat
08-07-2015, 21:59
Oh but they are that stupid- Kairos Fateweaver doesn't apply a modifer to a roll, it sets the roll to any value of my choosing. The roll's result may have been modified from what it originally was, but it hasn't had any modifiers applied, it's been set.

A modifier is something that modifies the result you rolled. If you change the result to something else, it's been modified. That's RAW at it's purest.

Nightfall Shimmer
08-07-2015, 22:41
There are exceptions when it comes to Summoning. The Sylvaneth Branchwraith has the Dryad summoning spell on it's Warscroll rather than it being on the Dryads. (But it does require a Sylvaneth Wildwood in play. Which can be taken as a Warscroll anyway. Or Summoned by Dhurthu if you take him.) In this case, you don't need Dryads on the table at all, since you don't need them in your army to get the summon spell.

Avian
08-07-2015, 22:44
It was my understanding that a wizard who can summon, can not summon unless you have a unit in play to use the summon from its warscroll.

So in order to summon one of the Lizardmen special characters, you need to have that special character already on the table?

How does that make any sense fluffwise?

"How nice of you to show up for the battle, Chakax. Now I will summon you to this battle! Errr... "

mrknify
08-07-2015, 22:48
So in order to summon one of the Lizardmen special characters, you need to have that special character already on the table?

How does that make any sense fluffwise?

"How nice of you to show up for the battle, Chakax. Now I will summon you to this battle! Errr... "
Like everyone else I'm just going with what I've seen to this point. You do have a very good point, this would also be in point for summoning bloodthirsters as well.

If the magic phase is per unit then this keeps the summoning issue. If the magic phase is like the attack phase then summoned units can not use magic in the turn they are summoned.