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View Full Version : Some thoughts after playing Age of Sigmar (Empire vs. Vampire Counts)



Philhelm
05-07-2015, 07:48
I played a game of Age of Sigmar with my Empire army versus my opponent's Vampire Counts army. As it was the 4th of July (we are in the U.S.) and had some other family things on the agenda, we just wanted to play a small trial run. We decided to ignore Sudden Death and measure everything from the base rather than the model, as we both agreed that it is a strange game mechanic. We tried to bring balanced forces, but that didn't turn out so well.

Vampire Counts Army:
Vampire Lord
10 Skeleton Warriors with spears
5 Black Knights
5 Grave Guard with great weapons

Empire Army:
Witch Hunter with great weapon and pistol
Warrior Priest with great weapon
20 State Troops with spears
10 Crossbowmen
10 Flagellants

My opponent thought that I may have fielded too many models at the beginning of the game, but my counterpoint was that he had a powerful Vampire Lord and two elite units. As it turned out, I really should have fielded an even larger army since I was soundly defeated. I made poor rolls of the dice overall, but it wouldn't have made a difference in the outcome.

Some of my thoughts:

1. The game is fun on its own merits, but not without flaws. The movement phase is obviously drastically different, but we used to both play 40K, so it wasn't so alien to us. Although the unit stats and the static to hit and wound rolls are a vastly different mechanic, it still felt like Warhammer, since we were rolling to hit, rolling to wound, and making armor saves as normal.

2. Even with the intention of bringing balanced forces, we couldn't fully agree on what was balanced. As I stated earlier, my opponent initially believed that I had fielded too many models, since he was vastly outnumbered, but didn't take into account the power of his elite units. Furthermore, he would have benefited from the Sudden Death rule had we used it for this game. Many of us have already discussed this issue in other threads, but with the drastic change in how units perform, it is difficult to find balance at this point even if both parties are seeking balance. I consider this to be the biggest flaw of the game.

3. Unfortunately, the game would play much better with round bases in my opinion. All of our models were on square bases, but what I noticed is that it seemed really messy when "piling in," since it was like playing a mini-game of Tetris. My recollection of playing 40K was that moving the round based models into close proximity was much easier, since a model can obviously rotate more readily.

4. The game definitely encourages large units due to some of the bonuses based on unit size, and especially with Battleshock, which can be devastating.

5. Battleshock was devastating. Admittedly, I tended to roll high for my Battleshock tests (quite often a roll of "5"), but it seemed that half of my casualties after each combat round were caused from Battleshock. My 20 State Troops were able to last for a little while, but it didn't take much effort on my opponent's part in order to quickly whittle away and destroy my 10 man units of Crossbowmen and Flagellants. Furthermore, the Undead units had a high bravery, and I don't believe he lost any units from Battleshock, which was a drastic change from 8th edition in which Undead units could be whittled away due to the "unstable" rule.

6. Some of the Warscrolls seem needlessly complex for a game with a core rulebook of only four pages. I think that the shield rules in particular are unnecessary, especially since they do not operate the same for each unit and often have conditions, such as a +1 to Armor Save if the opponents attack does not have a Rend value. The Skeleton Warriors in particular seemed strange, since they have two types of shields to choose from. Why?

7. Summoning can be nasty. My opponent raised a unit of five Grave Guard and three Vargheists, which definitely swung the battle further in his favor. It makes me think that if an opponent took nothing but Vampire Lords, Necromancers, etc., he could probably gain the Sudden Death benefit and just hide in the back of the table raising units of Undead. If I recall correctly, a "Wizard" can attempt a dispel if within 18" of the caster and if there is line of sight to the caster, but with a higher terrain density, that can be avoided.

8. It can be difficult to grant the "General's" immunity to Battleshock as needed (or the Warrior Priest's battle prayers, etc.), since it is activated in the Hero Phase, which takes place before the Movement Phase. I moved my characters toward the right flank to support my State Troops but was unable to grant bonuses to them since I was out of range. If I could have moved then activate the powers, it would have made the characters support abilities a lot more flexible. The General's ability also requires the player to keep track of which unit has the bonus, as apposed to 8th edition's Inspiring Presence.

9. I don't like how a lot of models now have two wounds, rather than one. It adds a bit more accounting where there used to be none. A strange change for a game what was supposed to be more streamlined.

10. As an Empire player with a Witch Hunter themed army, I was pleased that the Witch Hunter is more useful. He lost the rerolls to hit and wound against Wizards, Demons, and Undead, as well as Killing Blow against a single chosen model, but he now does D3 damage to any Wizard or Demon. In 8th edition, my Witch Hunters killed several Vampire Heroes, and even a couple of Vampire Lords, and that is still possible. After the battle, we ran a test battle between the Witch Hunter and the Vampire Lord. I actually lost that test battle, but managed to inflict 3 wounds during the first round of combat; I would have killed the Vampire Lord, but he kept getting lucky by passing three 5+ armor saves in a row.

11. Praise be to Sigmar that Flagellants don't automatically start killing themselves while in combat.

12. Weapon ranges are crap. Units seem to move more quickly, and can move then charge, so it's strange that missile weapons ranges have been cut by about one third. Crossbows used to have a range of 30", but now only have a range of 20". I suppose the counter to that is that they can (presumably) fire their weapons even if engaged in melee. A strange change to me all the same.

Whirlwind
05-07-2015, 08:07
I think skeleton units have two shield stats to represent the tomb kings shield and the VC skeleton shield. But yes in a game that has been streamlined the WFB rule of +1 save is much simpler as a comparison.

dreamspirit
05-07-2015, 08:56
so what do you think overall? Would you play this on regular bases? (no pun intended)

Philhelm
06-07-2015, 18:28
I think skeleton units have two shield stats to represent the tomb kings shield and the VC skeleton shield. But yes in a game that has been streamlined the WFB rule of +1 save is much simpler as a comparison.

I'm not all that familiar with the Tomb Kings, but that at least explains the two different shield options. Either way, I think the various shield rules for different unit types add complexity without any benefit.


so what do you think overall? Would you play this on regular bases? (no pun intended)

I might play a few more games, because why not? At this point, I can't really see myself playing Age of Sigmar regularly, mostly due to the complete and utter lack of even a shred of balance. I played another game with the following "100 Wound" forces:

40 State Troop spearmen
20 Crossbowmen
20 Flagellants
2 Witch Hunters
2 Warrior Priests

My opponent had (to my recollection):

Vampire Lord
Wight King
Necromancer
5 Hexwraiths
5 Hexwraiths
10 Grave Guard
12 Skeleton Warrior spearmen
10 Dire Wolves
10 Ghouls
Terrorgheist

There is a vast change in unit abilities. My 40 spearmen were unable to even completely kill five Hexwraiths, ten Dire Wolves, and twelve Skeleton Warriors, even with a 2+/3+ to hit from their special bonus. Those units would have been easily destroyed by a spearmen block in 8th edition. The Dire Wolves even have two wounds and two attacks, and Grave Guard hit on a 3+; the changes are pretty huge. Even my Flagellants with the ability to reroll to wound rolls (from the Warrior Priest's prayer) were unable to impress me. The game wasn't even close, and my opponent was able to raise three Vargheists (with four attacks and wounds) and a unit of five Black Knights. Even using number of wounds doesn't provide a shred of balance, as I had anticipated.

I also really hate moving units with square bases. I used to play 40K, and the round bases are slightly larger and easier to rotate and move around. Using 20mm square bases is like playing a game of Tetris when attempting to "pile in."

HJFudge
06-07-2015, 19:08
Summoning is definitely far far too powerful in this game. You really do have to alter it drastically, or games will definitely be 'unfun' for the person who cant summon.

Im confused how your spearmen didnt wreck face? Like...was it just bad rolls? Cause in my games, when my hit on 2+/wound on 4+ skeleton warrior legion with 3 attacks a pop touched a unit, that unit disintegrated.

taurus-marstein
06-07-2015, 19:16
With state troops, take spearmen or swordsmen. Stay as tightly packed as possible and take one unit of 40 guys. Keep all your units extremely close together (why wouldn't you?) so that heroes are always in range.
Then you wreck face

Herkamer63
06-07-2015, 19:26
I'm not all that familiar with the Tomb Kings, but that at least explains the two different shield options. Either way, I think the various shield rules for different unit types add complexity without any benefit.



I might play a few more games, because why not? At this point, I can't really see myself playing Age of Sigmar regularly, mostly due to the complete and utter lack of even a shred of balance. I played another game with the following "100 Wound" forces:

40 State Troop spearmen
20 Crossbowmen
20 Flagellants
2 Witch Hunters
2 Warrior Priests

My opponent had (to my recollection):

Vampire Lord
Wight King
Necromancer
5 Hexwraiths
5 Hexwraiths
10 Grave Guard
12 Skeleton Warrior spearmen
10 Dire Wolves
10 Ghouls
Terrorgheist

There is a vast change in unit abilities. My 40 spearmen were unable to even completely kill five Hexwraiths, ten Dire Wolves, and twelve Skeleton Warriors, even with a 2+/3+ to hit from their special bonus. Those units would have been easily destroyed by a spearmen block in 8th edition. The Dire Wolves even have two wounds and two attacks, and Grave Guard hit on a 3+; the changes are pretty huge. Even my Flagellants with the ability to reroll to wound rolls (from the Warrior Priest's prayer) were unable to impress me. The game wasn't even close, and my opponent was able to raise three Vargheists (with four attacks and wounds) and a unit of five Black Knights. Even using number of wounds doesn't provide a shred of balance, as I had anticipated.

I also really hate moving units with square bases. I used to play 40K, and the round bases are slightly larger and easier to rotate and move around. Using 20mm square bases is like playing a game of Tetris when attempting to "pile in."
I originally was thinking the number of wounds was gonna be the way to go, but after reading this; sorry to hear it didn't work well for ya. Maybe something you could try is keep the 100 wound system, but also integrate 2 hero scrolls, 2-6 regular warscrolls (with movements between 3"-6", wounds between 1-4 wounds), and 0-3 fast/heavy warscroll/monster units (model's that move over 6", models that deal 4 or more damage pts, models with more than 6 wounds, etc). Hopefully, that'll fix some of the problems if you go 40k on it a little bit. I heard someone say that there might be a BRB on its way to address some of the problems, saying the free stuff, right now, is temporary. I'll believe it when I see it, but one thing I did hear on a faeit 212, from a GW rep, is that there will be scenarios in AoS that will be released and will help out with the balance issues. We'll see soon, but hang in there. I still want to get a few games in myself

taurus-marstein
06-07-2015, 19:33
No, there's a few things that make a wound count or model count not work.
1. Shooting, shooting in this game is insane!!! Just take a boatload of archers or leadbelchers or whatever. You can shoot so well and still fiht in close combat.
2. Summoning, it's insane. Start the game with a few necro's, vampires, or something and you can summon all the models you need to win.
3. Ogres, they are insanely overpowered. Multi-wound damage is just nuts.

Philhelm
06-07-2015, 19:33
Im confused how your spearmen didnt wreck face? Like...was it just bad rolls? Cause in my games, when my hit on 2+/wound on 4+ skeleton warrior legion with 3 attacks a pop touched a unit, that unit disintegrated.

I did have some bad rolls throughout the game, but it wouldn't have made a difference in the outcome. The problem is that my spearmen got bogged down and simply couldn't give as good as they got against the three units. Also, I was forced to split up my attacks between the different opposing units due to model placement and couldn't focus my attacks.


With state troops, take spearmen or swordsmen. Stay as tightly packed as possible and take one unit of 40 guys. Keep all your units extremely close together (why wouldn't you?) so that heroes are always in range.
Then you wreck face

That's exactly what I did, but it didn't work. I even had a unit of 20 crossbowmen hidden behind the unit of spearmen, and my General ensured that the spearmen wouldn't be whittled away from Battleshock.

valtrius
06-07-2015, 19:36
I also played with my VC this weekend with similar results. The chaos player I was playing just shook his head and gave me a blank stare at the end of the game. VC are crazy, crazy powerful right now, and I am not sure their really is a way to balance it without using some sort of point system.

Philhelm
06-07-2015, 19:38
No, there's a few things that make a wound count or model count not work.
1. Shooting, shooting in this game is insane!!! Just take a boatload of archers or leadbelchers or whatever. You can shoot so well and still fiht in close combat.
2. Summoning, it's insane. Start the game with a few necro's, vampires, or something and you can summon all the models you need to win.
3. Ogres, they are insanely overpowered. Multi-wound damage is just nuts.

Exactly. All of the other stats make the wound count unbalanced. A Vampire Lord isn't even nearly equal to a Witch Hunter, but would presumably cost five points, and the Grave Guard are certainly not equal to Empire State Troops. I knew it would be unbalanced, but figured we could try it out.

Summoning is literally insane, and my opponent even stopped summoning units during the game.

valtrius
06-07-2015, 20:04
I used nagash, a wight bsb, 20 skellies, 3 vagheists, 4 archai, and 30 zombies. I figured that was somewhere between 2k-2500. my opponent had a larger army considering that we were both shooting for 2k-2500 points.
turn one nagash summons 2 varghulf, 2 terrorgheists, 10 black knights, 20 more zombies, and also manages to mortal wound his lord character.
His turn he just managed to eat up the zombies pretty good.
my next turn. I summon 10 hexwraiths, 10 ghouls, 10 grave guard, I also proceed to gaze and magic his lord to death.
By the time my monsters charge and eat his units up. what is left is almost battleshocked off the board.
turn 3 roles around and I think he had a chariot and like 3 marauders left.

I think my summoned units did all the work, with my starting units providing a screen for Nagash. Summoning really isn't fair, and this is coming from a VC player who loves nagash. I also didn't summon more stuff because the table was getting crowded.

The ease of summoning in this game really is a cheap and misbalancing way to sell more models. I know you got to sell models to make money, but come on at least make it a little harder.

Philhelm
06-07-2015, 20:17
I think my summoned units did all the work, with my starting units providing a screen for Nagash. Summoning really isn't fair, and this is coming from a VC player who loves nagash. I also didn't summon more stuff because the table was getting crowded.

The ease of summoning in this game really is a cheap and misbalancing way to sell more models. I know you got to sell models to make money, but come on at least make it a little harder.

Part of the problem is with the dispelling rules. The dispelling "Wizard" (if you have one) must be within 18" and in line of sight of the caster. I had two Warrior Priests, but I kept them behind my State Troops and Flagellants in order to cast prayers; I never had the opportunity to dispel.

OGforMe
06-07-2015, 20:56
I don't post much, but I am confused on how the examples above are summoned. The ability to summon a unit is on the unit warscroll so if you don't have that unit on the table, how can a wizard know how to summon it? I have only seen specific examples of reserves on warscrolls and I don't remember seeing much for undead to be able to have reserves, as that is the only other way I could think you could summon them if they aren't on the table yet. Last edition you had to know the spells to summon certain units, so wouldn't this be like trying to summon units you didn't know the spell for in 8th? In a sense the warscroll is the spell to summon the unit, so you have to know it to cast it is how I am interpreting it. It seems that would change things up quite a bit. On a side note to that, what about when that unit with the warscroll to summon dies? Can a wizard summon a new unit if he lost the ability from the unit being removed from play? Comparing it to last edition as well, if the wizard that knew the summon spell for a specific unit type died, you couldn't use that spell anymore because it was gone. That would make summoning even more difficult if you had to keep a unit alive to summon more of the unit type. Sure you can summon that terrorghest if it is on the table but you need to have 2 models to do that, so it forces the player to think how to work with the models they have in their collection more efficiently. Am I way off track here? Please be kind if so :)

Nightfall Shimmer
06-07-2015, 20:59
Sounds to me like peoples tactics have to change. I'm not really all that surprised. This is a new game and none of us are used to it yet. Summoning does seem pretty OP though.

monkey10120
06-07-2015, 21:06
Sounds to me like peoples tactics have to change. I'm not really all that surprised. This is a new game and none of us are used to it yet. Summoning does seem pretty OP though.

What tactics do you speak of?

This game lacks any sort of tactics other than focus fire. Thats it.

HJFudge
06-07-2015, 21:10
What tactics do you speak of?

This game lacks any sort of tactics other than focus fire. Thats it.

Movement is super important still. Sure, theres no flanking bonuses or what not...but theres still PLENTY of tactical importance to the correct movement and placement of units.

What there is less of is 'tricksy' stuff like 'haha you ended up half a millimeter out of charge arc' stuff

monkey10120
06-07-2015, 21:27
Movement is super important still. Sure, theres no flanking bonuses or what not...but theres still PLENTY of tactical importance to the correct movement and placement of units.

What there is less of is 'tricksy' stuff like 'haha you ended up half a millimeter out of charge arc' stuff

Yes, less "tricksy" stuff, like once I am in combat I will turn my pikeman around so less models in the enemy's rank can attack because my pikes are not adding to my model length.

If anything this is leading to more cheesy stuff, like funneling units do to stupid rules like using eagles to block melee units. Thats not tactics, thats abusing the game.

Also movement has not tactics if you are just shuffling forward every turn. And by making sure you have the correct placement is essentially focus fire like I said before.

Nightfall Shimmer
06-07-2015, 21:38
My experiences with WFB was just 'shuffling forward every move phase' to be honest. Movement is more important in 40K than I've ever seen in in Warhammer. The main phases of tactical play for me (Admittedly, playing Skaven, I'm sure the other races played differently.) was Deployment, the Magic phase and the one or two turns where I or my opponent charge and scrum in the center of the board rolling random dice.

And that move phase of declared charges wasn't really 'tactical' since it was largely dictated by Deployment. Did I place my guys well enough at the start of the game so that my tarpits could hold up my opponents elite stuff while mine roll up his flank? Or did he deploy a unit to block that flank charge?

Philhelm
06-07-2015, 22:09
Yes, less "tricksy" stuff, like once I am in combat I will turn my pikeman around so less models in the enemy's rank can attack because my pikes are not adding to my model length.

Fewer.


Also movement has not tactics if you are just shuffling forward every turn. And by making sure you have the correct placement is essentially focus fire like I said before.

And even thoughtful unit placement, movement, and focused fire can be swept away when there is a complete lack of balance and your units are just outright outclassed. Even if I rolled better and my opponent couldn't summon additional units, that Terrorgheist was coming for me. It does D3/D6 damage, and now the multiple damage rolls can actually kill multiple models.

Themed armies will be even more penalized than ever in Age of Sigmar.

Kyriakin
06-07-2015, 22:28
Fewer.



And even thoughtful unit placement, movement, and focused fire can be swept away when there is a complete lack of balance and your units are just outright outclassed. Even if I rolled better and my opponent couldn't summon additional units, that Terrorgheist was coming for me. It does D3/D6 damage, and now the multiple damage rolls can actually kill multiple models.

Themed armies will be even more penalized than ever in Age of Sigmar.
There's going to be less themed armies anyway due to the overall pick-n-mix nature of the game.

SideshowLucifer
06-07-2015, 23:30
I don't post much, but I am confused on how the examples above are summoned. The ability to summon a unit is on the unit warscroll so if you don't have that unit on the table, how can a wizard know how to summon it? I have only seen specific examples of reserves on warscrolls and I don't remember seeing much for undead to be able to have reserves, as that is the only other way I could think you could summon them if they aren't on the table yet. Last edition you had to know the spells to summon certain units, so wouldn't this be like trying to summon units you didn't know the spell for in 8th? In a sense the warscroll is the spell to summon the unit, so you have to know it to cast it is how I am interpreting it. It seems that would change things up quite a bit. On a side note to that, what about when that unit with the warscroll to summon dies? Can a wizard summon a new unit if he lost the ability from the unit being removed from play? Comparing it to last edition as well, if the wizard that knew the summon spell for a specific unit type died, you couldn't use that spell anymore because it was gone. That would make summoning even more difficult if you had to keep a unit alive to summon more of the unit type. Sure you can summon that terrorghest if it is on the table but you need to have 2 models to do that, so it forces the player to think how to work with the models they have in their collection more efficiently. Am I way off track here? Please be kind if so :)
From what I can tell you are correct here. Summoning requires you to actually have the data sheet in your army. I've no idea if the unit needs to be on the board currently or not though.

Sothron
07-07-2015, 01:10
I played my VC army against my wife's HE army using AoS in what we guessed was around 2500 points. It was a disaster. The summoning for VC just demolished anything she was trying to do. How did summoning get overlooked in any game testing for these rules?

kargie
07-07-2015, 01:21
I played my VC army against my wife's HE army using AoS in what we guessed was around 2500 points. It was a disaster. The summoning for VC just demolished anything she was trying to do. How did summoning get overlooked in any game testing for these rules?


This, and many other comments, really highlight one of the biggest problems with this ruleset. Its not summoning that's broken--though summoning is a good example of what really is. Summoning in Age of Sigmar is actually a really, really, well balanced rule. Now, let me explain:

You can summon a unit, or you can place it with your army at the start of the game. Remember, no need to summon as there's no "points" value or limit. So the fact that you get another unit later isn't an advantage like it is in 40k or 8th, its just a choice. And a summoned unit versus just placing that unit at the start of the game has a number of drawbacks--you lose their effectiveness prior to summoning, you sacrifice another spell (and mortal wounds) for summoning, and the summoned unit doesn't count as part of your original army, so for a partial victory summoned units are liabilities, and maybe you'll fail the summon or it'll be countered by the opponent. But in exchange for that, you get a chance at the correct unit at the right place and at the right time, and by starting with a smaller army a shot at having a sudden death objective. So, actually, a really balanced rule.

But that's the problem. In what crazy game is doubling your army in the middle of the game balanced? One that isn't balanced in the slightest to begin with.

Galushi
07-07-2015, 01:44
Kargie, I believe how some people have interpreted Summoning, including myself, is you choose your "balanced force", and anything you summon is additional units created out of thin air, just like 8th. In that context, summoning is insane.

The way you describe it is more like 40k's putting units in reserve, then using the Death Wizard to Deep Strike the unit. Honestly, that would be way easier to balance.

With army sizes definitely smaller in AoS, I dont see how the first method could be balanced without making it much harder to get the summon off, reworking dispelling, or bringing drastically fewer models onto the table on a successful cast.

kargie
07-07-2015, 01:48
But under the rules, you place units at the start of the game until you decide that you're done. There is no balance to army size or effectiveness except what you chose to use. Anything you summon, almost by definition, is something you could have had on the board at the start of the game. Now, if you're imposing restrictions on your units, then you're house-ruling limits, and then house-ruling limits--or significantly increasing the "cost" of units that can summon--on summoning would also make sense to ensure that you maintain balance. But the fact is, under the rules GW put out, summoning isn't the issue.

Kahadras
07-07-2015, 01:54
How did summoning get overlooked in any game testing for these rules?

To be fair I'm not sure how much play testing went on. Either that or whoever green lighted the rules was happy that people could summon so much (more models, more money)

He Who Laughs
07-07-2015, 02:09
I had a crack at the rules last night in my hotel room, on my own with a few handfuls of Reaper Bones I'd stuffed into my bag for the purpose. Whether it matters or not, the last time I played WHFB was 5th edition (I think) with my Sotek army, so I'm not sure how the mechanics have evolved since then to 8th ed. I'm much more familiar with 40K, that was my go-to for many years.

No idea if this was balanced (and I didn't meet minimum unit sizes due to lack of models), but the two forces were:
Destruction:
Black Orc Warboss with choppa/shield
6x Black Orcs
12 goblins w sword/shield (kobolds)
Ogor Gorger (Owlbear?)

Death
Heinrich Kemmler (necromancer type guy)
Strigoi ghoul king
6x zombies
6x skelton archers
6x skelton warriors (sword/shield)

Things that jumped out at me as I went along (and feel free to correct me if any of this shows I've misread the rule - or shows my ignorance of how WHFB has changed over the recent years)
- Arcane Bolt is bloody powerful, especially seeing you can blast your close combat opponent with it if you're still in the 3" combat zone in the hero phase
- Shooting was less effective (though they were skellie archers) - but still potent as you can shoot into the combat you're engaged in - along with anyone else that wants to!
- Combat phase suddenly becomes very tactical - seeing as it's now "I pick a unit to attack, you pick a unit to attack, I pick a unit etc..." - if you've charged with multiple units, you've got to weigh up which ones can potentially survive long enough getting attacked first through the combat phase before you get back to them to attack with.
- Counter charges! Be very careful charging single characters (or anything for that matter) around: Charged the Strigoi into the BO Boss - was about to start the one-on-one combat before realising the 6x BO's standing 3" near the Boss could "pile-in" to the combat for free.. brutal.
- Lack of look-up tables (is SvT) made it very fluid - though flicking between the warscrolls probably took just as long.
- Battleshock can be brutal - with often more casualties to it than combat.
- Measuring model-to-model seems to add difficulty, better to stick with base-to-base.
- Must be mindful of the 1" range on most melee weapons - not as many models can get in combat as you'd expect. Makes sense to keep big units on their old movement trays.
- The game can swing wildly - I thought the game was done when it was Heinrich and 6 archers facing down the Warboss, 9 goblins and 5 Black orcs - nope. Combination of some unlucky BO to-hit rolls and a bad Battleshock roll - Death scraped in with Heinrich on two wounds and two skellies left


Key take-away:
- Very fast game
- Far more engaging with the random turn-sequence and the IGoUGo combat phase - my memories of WHFB are of sitting back waiting for the opponent to do their thing for 15 minutes, waking up occasionally to roll saves. Snore.
- Units aren't stuck for turns in a losing battle or protected from external harm because they're in combat - ie archers nullified completely because they're stuck in combat, or melee troops safe from missile fire for the same reason. Means no unit is ever safe, nor will keep the upper hand for long grinding away into combat.
- Starting to get an inkling of the supposed self-balancing nature of the game works (still open to abuse though if you want to of course). As models are now essentially condensed into a walking weapon with an armour save (no really, look at the stats and think about it), I can start to see how a Bloodthirster can be brought down by a large unit of relatively weak troops - especially as the performance of many large monsters degrades as they're damaged - that in itself is a very interesting concept that I'm surprised has not been used before (maybe in other game systems?)

Philhelm
07-07-2015, 03:56
This, and many other comments, really highlight one of the biggest problems with this ruleset. Its not summoning that's broken--though summoning is a good example of what really is. Summoning in Age of Sigmar is actually a really, really, well balanced rule. Now, let me explain:

You can summon a unit, or you can place it with your army at the start of the game. Remember, no need to summon as there's no "points" value or limit. So the fact that you get another unit later isn't an advantage like it is in 40k or 8th, its just a choice. And a summoned unit versus just placing that unit at the start of the game has a number of drawbacks--you lose their effectiveness prior to summoning, you sacrifice another spell (and mortal wounds) for summoning, and the summoned unit doesn't count as part of your original army, so for a partial victory summoned units are liabilities, and maybe you'll fail the summon or it'll be countered by the opponent. But in exchange for that, you get a chance at the correct unit at the right place and at the right time, and by starting with a smaller army a shot at having a sudden death objective. So, actually, a really balanced rule.

But that's the problem. In what crazy game is doubling your army in the middle of the game balanced? One that isn't balanced in the slightest to begin with.

You're correct except for one factor. A player could conceivably field, say, an "army" consisting of Nagash, twenty Vampire Lords, and twenty Necromancers. The opposing player, if he does not have access to summoning units, would pretty much need to field hundreds of models thereby guaranteeing that the Undead player gains the Sudden Death victory condition option. However, after the game starts, the opposing player may eventually become outnumbered himself, but will not be able to benefit from Sudden Death.

Jazzk
07-07-2015, 07:42
I think you guys are playing it wrong? I don't think you are allow to summon units that are not on the table?
Example, if you didn't deploy any zombie at start you don't get to Summon any since you are not using it warscroll for the battle.
Therefore you have no access to the spell.

Also, remember summon units counts as dead unit at the end of the game too.

Nightfall Shimmer
07-07-2015, 11:50
I suppose you could limit it by number of warscrolls, and have summonable units in 'reserve'. ie 12 warscrolls = 12 units max, even if all you set up is Nagash on his own, maybe with a Necromancer, you'd still only have a maximum of 12 units on the table. You'd just have to 'summon in' the rest of your army.

Shandor
07-07-2015, 12:13
Isnt the whole point of summoning to Summon something that is NOT in your group or Army since 40 Years of Fantasy games? Summoning is OP now.. true.. but it would be a senceless gimmik if you could not summon something thats not already in your Army the first place.

Its like a Mage that could not summon a Elemental because there are already 6 Members in your Group and thats maximum. Oo
Or a Chaos player in 40k cant summon Deamons because he has already 2500 points on the Table at start and he cant have over 2500 points..
Or "Your Chaos Champion cant transform into a Deamon because its more expensive then the Champion.

The Peoples are playing it right.. its just bad rules.

Pacman
07-07-2015, 12:28
I think you guys are playing it wrong? I don't think you are allow to summon units that are not on the table?


A lot of people have suggested this as an interpretation of the rules, but there's nothing actually in the rules or warscrolls that impose that as a limit. Honestly I think limiting summoning to more of the same type you've already got would be a better rule than what the rules actually say, and I think you should free to house rule it as such.

If you consider rules-as-written the only limit on the amount you can summon is the number of summoning attempts you're allowed per turn, how manyn actual miniatures you have, and the opponent's unbinding rolls. That's woefully inadequate; one player has access to huge resources that the other doesn't. Who is that supposed to be fun for?

Clewz
07-07-2015, 12:52
I think you guys are playing it wrong? I don't think you are allow to summon units that are not on the table?
Example, if you didn't deploy any zombie at start you don't get to Summon any since you are not using it warscroll for the battle.
Therefore you have no access to the spell.

Also, remember summon units counts as dead unit at the end of the game too.


I'm with you on this. The scrolls state by having that unit in your army it gives the death wizards in your army access to that particular summoning spell . You dont automaticaly get the spell because the unit is in your faction

leonseeo
07-07-2015, 13:13
There's going to be less themed armies anyway due to the overall pick-n-mix nature of the game.

Or more - you can now have an all nurgle army legally for example (not sure if you could before, but I think not), or just gorgers and skragg in OK...I'm sure there are others too!

Bloodknight
07-07-2015, 13:20
I'm with you on this. The scrolls state by having that unit in your army it gives the death wizards in your army access to that particular summoning spell . You dont automaticaly get the spell because the unit is in your faction

It's not a huge limiter there either. You can just field a few token units of whatever you want to summon a lot of.

Noodle!
07-07-2015, 13:20
You could have an all nurgle army. I do.

leonseeo
07-07-2015, 13:22
I think you guys are playing it wrong? I don't think you are allow to summon units that are not on the table?

I agree, but there's a slight problem that's been raised elsewhere - if you have lord of change, you can summon lord of change on a roll of 4 on either of dice in some cases - the new lord of change can then summon another and so on. LofC gets 2 spells, so each of those LoC can then summon another unit from your army. Carnage and instant death; especially if the army with LoC has less models and there's sudden death.

Don't get me wrong though - I like the new rules, they're better for someone like me who was learning 8th but run out of time/resources.

leonseeo
07-07-2015, 13:27
You could have an all nurgle army. I do.

Is it legal? I thought you had to have other things in there for 8th? Ignore me if I'm wrong, I was still learning 8th when it got axed.

Noodle!
07-07-2015, 13:28
It's absolutely legal. Same for all the gods or even unmarked.

Kulgur
07-07-2015, 13:36
There's worse than the magic summoning. There's the chaos lord 4+ get a unit style. You can couple 2 Archaons (nothing saying you can't have multiples of a named character unfortunately) and 1 chaos lord to summon as many units as you want of whatever size thanks to their command abilities firing off each other.

leonseeo
07-07-2015, 13:50
It's absolutely legal

Ah ok, I seem to remember more about it now! I heard it was easily beaten? Again, I was still learning 8th to be fair, so don't claim to know that much.

What is playing that same army like in AoS? Have you tried? :)

Nightfall Shimmer
07-07-2015, 13:54
Its like a Mage that could not summon a Elemental because there are already 6 Members in your Group and thats maximum. Oo
Or a Chaos player in 40k cant summon Deamons because he has already 2500 points on the Table at start and he cant have over 2500 points..
Or "Your Chaos Champion cant transform into a Deamon because its more expensive then the Champion.

The Peoples are playing it right.. its just bad rules.

To be fair I don't think the above is very balanced either. I put down say 1850pts worth of Eldar, you but down 1850pts worth of C:SMs and then summon in another 1000pts worth of Daemons? Shouldn't I have 1000pts worth of stuff in reserves to match it points wise? :P

HelloKitty
07-07-2015, 14:04
Summoning is busted in both 40k and Age of Sigmar. Summoning is one of the biggest issues i have with 40k because as you said, we can both show up with 2000 points or whatever, and then you can just sit back and bring in another 1000 points pretty easily - which is in essence just adding free points to your roster with minimal effort and no risk at all. that would be akin to a guard player bringing in 1000 points of reinforcements... except he cannot do so. The summoning player has a huge advantage.

For Age of Sigmar we are going to be playtesting the following modifications for summoning
* - You can only bring in a unit that is at its minimum size per the warscroll
* - We use a point system, so summoned units are worth their points if killed
* - Casters / Summoners can only have as many points on the field as they themselves are worth in points. So for example, a 1 point mage can only have 1 summoned unit on the table at a time. A 3 point summoner could have 3 units on the table at one time etc. (our point scale 1-5 for heroes)

That is covered in the Azyr comp system in the rules dev forum if anyone is curious.

Noodle!
07-07-2015, 17:27
Ah ok, I seem to remember more about it now! I heard it was easily beaten? Again, I was still learning 8th to be fair, so don't claim to know that much.

What is playing that same army like in AoS? Have you tried? :)

You absolutely put yourself at a disadvantage by going mono-god in 8th since there's no actual benefit to it. But I've not had too many problems since the chaos book is probably one of the strongest in (casual) 8th.

I haven't tried it in AoS. My gaming group were going to try it this week but honestly we've all lost the will to do so after seeing battlereports and reading rules. We'll just keep on playing 8th and possibly 6th instead.

Eddie Chaos
07-07-2015, 17:48
Summoning is so overpowered.

A slan, who can cast three spells a turn, is capable of summoning any saurus or skink units. THIS INCLUDES SPECIAL CHARACTERS AND CARNOSAUR KNIGHTS.

You do not need to already have a unit in your army to summon more, otherwise I wouldn't be able to summon special characters.

I can summon Kroq-gar on a 5...

Sent from my HTC One mini 2 using Tapatalk

Venthrac
07-07-2015, 18:02
Great post and thoughtful analysis. Thank you for this.

Venthrac
07-07-2015, 18:14
To be fair I'm not sure how much play testing went on. Either that or whoever green lighted the rules was happy that people could summon so much (more models, more money)

I think the playtesting is happening now, with us. :)

Which I don't mind, as long as GW really are open to adjusting the rules as has been said.

GrandmasterWang
07-07-2015, 18:24
I think the playtesting is happening now, with us. :)

Which I don't mind, as long as GW really are open to adjusting the rules as has been said.

Indeed. Good free 'beta' rules ;)

RAW I could field an army of 10 Nagash's could I not?

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk

Herkamer63
07-07-2015, 18:48
Even though I have all the compendiums but haven't had time to read them all, make sure to read the rules and the "key words", that are at the bottom of each warscroll, very carefully. For example, someone had told me that during a game someone had summoned a Bloodthirster using another Bloodthirster. Under the summoning, it states that only a Chaos Wizards can bring Bloodthirsters out on the field. Then of course see what d6 roll you need, but you'll that later. Anyway, finishing the example, units that can do this are Sorcerers, Heralds, and Daemon Princes (I think) because it'll say it in their description and their "key words", so make sure that you and the guy playing across the table read it carefully, so you can avoid mass summoning.

Last thing, and I don't know if anyone has checked it out yet, BoLs actually posted something up that could be the way of balancing armies that came directly from GW, reportedly. It's sounds more like a guideline than something concrete, so take it for what it's worth: "1-12 Warscrolls, 1-2 Hero Scrolls, 0-2 Monster scrolls, No single warscroll may contain more than X wounds (i.e. 24), Heroes may not be duplicated, All other warscrolls maybe duplicated once." So yeah, it sounds like what I said earlier, just more detailed. I may try this out and see how this goes. Of course, to go with the blues I'm seeing on here, I play Ogres...so sorry...anyway, they have to eat, but this is worth a check.

WizzyWarlock
07-07-2015, 19:05
I think you guys are playing it wrong? I don't think you are allow to summon units that are not on the table?
Example, if you didn't deploy any zombie at start you don't get to Summon any since you are not using it warscroll for the battle.
Therefore you have no access to the spell.

Also, remember summon units counts as dead unit at the end of the game too.
Looking at the rules, it says the following:

"Armies can be as big as you like, and you can use as many models from your collection as you wish."
"All models are described by warscrolls, which provide all of the rules for using them in the game. You will need warscrolls for the models you want to use."
"You can continue setting up units until you have set up all the units you want to fight in this battle, or have run out of space. This is your army. Count the number of models in your army this may come in useful later. Any remaining units are held in reserve, playing no part unless fate lends a hand. "

So going by what it says: I bring along 200 Skeleton models that I'd like to use. I thus get a warscroll as it's a model I want to use. I decide not to place any of the Skeletons down during deployment and they go into reserve. As I have the warscroll, my wizards gain access to the Summon Skeletons spell. I can now summon up to 200 Skeletons.

OGforMe
07-07-2015, 20:57
Looking at the rules, it says the following:

"Armies can be as big as you like, and you can use as many models from your collection as you wish."
"All models are described by warscrolls, which provide all of the rules for using them in the game. You will need warscrolls for the models you want to use."
"You can continue setting up units until you have set up all the units you want to fight in this battle, or have run out of space. This is your army. Count the number of models in your army this may come in useful later. Any remaining units are held in reserve, playing no part unless fate lends a hand. "

So going by what it says: I bring along 200 Skeleton models that I'd like to use. I thus get a warscroll as it's a model I want to use. I decide not to place any of the Skeletons down during deployment and they go into reserve. As I have the warscroll, my wizards gain access to the Summon Skeletons spell. I can now summon up to 200 Skeletons.

I saw that as well, but look at the last sentence again. I read the "playing no part unless fate lends a hand" to mean they have nothing to do with your army at that point, so they don't give their warscroll ability to the wizards in play. So it is really confusing as they are not part of your army as stated, but are part of reserves, which is apparently not part of your army as we would normally think of it, don't have anything to do with the game as they play no part, with the caveat that fate lends a hand, which we don't know if fate means magic, or some other scenario down the road.

I see both sides based on what we would think of reserves in the past, but there are warscrolls that specifically say to put units in reserve that can be used in the game. It seems to make two types of reserves, an army reserve that activates at a specified time from the warscroll, or an active reserve, and also a model collection reserve, which you can't do anything with unless "fate" allows it, or an inactive reserve. That is where my interpretation would be that inactive reserves have nothing to do with the battle, but if an active reserve or model on the table can call upon them, they will become part of the battle. In this case, I would say the wizard doesn't know the warscroll is there because it plays no part in the battle, or as a comparision doesn't know the spell like in 8th edition. In 8th if you didn't roll the spell you didn't get it, but you could have had it if you were lucky, in this case you would have made the choice to know it by placing it down as part of your army. Whatever the case, it isn't real clear, but if you had the limitiation on summoning like that, it seems like it would be less overpowered than how people have been playing it.

GramercyRiff
07-07-2015, 21:00
I'm sure this has been mentioned ITT and elsewhere but perhaps the summoning is to counter the insane pew pew. I'd have preferred neither summoning nor pew pew were a thing.

Avian
07-07-2015, 21:06
I'm sure this has been mentioned ITT and elsewhere but perhaps the summoning is to counter the insane pew pew. I'd have preferred neither summoning nor pew pew were a thing.

That would only work if all armies could summon.

Ayin
07-07-2015, 21:20
You absolutely put yourself at a disadvantage by going mono-god in 8th since there's no actual benefit to it. But I've not had too many problems since the chaos book is probably one of the strongest in (casual) 8th.


The only mono-God that really cripples you is Khorne, as each of the three others is still free to participate in the magic phase.

AngryAngel
07-07-2015, 21:24
Summoning is busted in both 40k and Age of Sigmar. Summoning is one of the biggest issues i have with 40k because as you said, we can both show up with 2000 points or whatever, and then you can just sit back and bring in another 1000 points pretty easily - which is in essence just adding free points to your roster with minimal effort and no risk at all. that would be akin to a guard player bringing in 1000 points of reinforcements... except he cannot do so. The summoning player has a huge advantage.

For Age of Sigmar we are going to be playtesting the following modifications for summoning
* - You can only bring in a unit that is at its minimum size per the warscroll
* - We use a point system, so summoned units are worth their points if killed
* - Casters / Summoners can only have as many points on the field as they themselves are worth in points. So for example, a 1 point mage can only have 1 summoned unit on the table at a time. A 3 point summoner could have 3 units on the table at one time etc. (our point scale 1-5 for heroes)

That is covered in the Azyr comp system in the rules dev forum if anyone is curious.

So, to make it playable, there is a huge, problem, that needs to be fixed even for casual games. Oh GW, can you even be considered professional anymore.


I think the playtesting is happening now, with us. :)

Which I don't mind, as long as GW really are open to adjusting the rules as has been said.

As we all know, GW are very quick about fixing broken things...:rolleyes:

GramercyRiff
07-07-2015, 22:28
That would only work if all armies could summon.

Which armies can't? I have not looked through all of the warscrolls.

Otherwise, I totally agree and that should be fixed.

Nightfall Shimmer
07-07-2015, 22:49
Skaven can't.

Technically 'Wanderer' Aelves can't (Although Sylvaneth can a little.)

Out of the armies I've looked at. (Which is... Wood elves and Skaven haha)

Kahadras
07-07-2015, 22:52
Which I don't mind, as long as GW really are open to adjusting the rules as has been said.

How are these 'ajustments' going to make it back to GW? It isn't like they have a forum were you can go and post stuff that the developers will read.

Spiney Norman
07-07-2015, 22:56
So here was my first 'proper' game (by which I mean not a GW demo game) of AoS

Tomb Kings
Tomb Legion Formation
Tomb King
Liche Priest
20 Skeleton Warriors
20 Skeleton Warriors
10 Skeleton Archers
10 Skeleton Archers
25 Tomb Guard
6 Skeleton Chariots

Casket of Souls

Warriors of Chaos
Chaos Warband formation

Chaos Lord on Daemonic mount
Chaos sorceror
20 Chaos Warriors (Khorne)
20 Chaos Warriors (Khorne)
15 Chaos Knights (Khorne)
10 Chaos Chosen

Hell Cannon

A few lessons learned
- we had far too many models on the field we called the game after three hours at the end of T3 when the chaos army had gained a significant advantage. It has to be said that we were very much learning the rules as we went along.
- Heroes are really not "all that", the tomb king took a hell cannon blast to the face in T2 and evaporated, not being able to join units is crippling for individual heroes.
- summoning is absurdly good, units can be summoned 9" away from enemy units, I did this twice, in T1 and T2 and both times they managed to make a charge on the same turn they were summoned (we did look for a rule which disallows this, but couldn't find one).
- models that do multiple damage are really, really good, the tomb guard were absolutely carving their way through the chaos warriors.
- shooting is kind of pointless, with most shooting ranges being significantly reduced, you get 1-2 turns of shooting at the most before you are going to be charged.
- ganging up on units with several of yours seems to be the best tactical option
- anyone claiming the rules are simplistic really needs to play a game, the core rules might only be 4 pages long but the different ways that the warscrolls interract is profoundly complex and therein lies the tactical depth of the game.

It might sound fairly obvious, but I think the chaos player held the balance of power, large units of multi-wound models are incredibly hard to deal with, I did manage to destroy one of the large warrior blocks but only by throwing half my army at it. My army was essentially designed to be as large as possible without giving away a Sudden Death objective, but even then it was absurdly hard to kill a complete unit.

Ayin
07-07-2015, 23:01
- shooting is kind of pointless, with most shooting ranges being significantly reduced, you get 1-2 turns of shooting at the most before you are going to be charged.


Do you have a reason why those units can't continue to shoot after being charged?

Spiney Norman
07-07-2015, 23:11
Do you have a reason why those units can't continue to shoot after being charged?

Yep, they were dead

Shooting units tend to be awful in combat with poor stats and low save (if any), neither of my skeleton archer units lasted more than a single round of combat (granted they were fighting a chaos Lord on daemonic steed and chaos chosen respectively). Maybe Sigmarine archers will be able to buck this trend with heavily armoured multi-wound archers, but I can't see your average human/elf in pyjamas lasting long enough in combat to do much shooting in between combat rounds.

HJFudge
07-07-2015, 23:44
So here was my first 'proper' game (by which I mean not a GW demo game) of AoS

Tomb Kings
Tomb Legion Formation
Tomb King
Liche Priest
20 Skeleton Warriors
20 Skeleton Warriors
10 Skeleton Archers
10 Skeleton Archers
25 Tomb Guard
6 Skeleton Chariots

Casket of Souls

Warriors of Chaos
Chaos Warband formation

Chaos Lord on Daemonic mount
Chaos sorceror
20 Chaos Warriors (Khorne)
20 Chaos Warriors (Khorne)
15 Chaos Knights (Khorne)
10 Chaos Chosen

Hell Cannon

A few lessons learned
- we had far too many models on the field we called the game after three hours at the end of T3 when the chaos army had gained a significant advantage. It has to be said that we were very much learning the rules as we went along.
- Heroes are really not "all that", the tomb king took a hell cannon blast to the face in T2 and evaporated, not being able to join units is crippling for individual heroes.
- summoning is absurdly good, units can be summoned 9" away from enemy units, I did this twice, in T1 and T2 and both times they managed to make a charge on the same turn they were summoned (we did look for a rule which disallows this, but couldn't find one).
- models that do multiple damage are really, really good, the tomb guard were absolutely carving their way through the chaos warriors.
- shooting is kind of pointless, with most shooting ranges being significantly reduced, you get 1-2 turns of shooting at the most before you are going to be charged.
- ganging up on units with several of yours seems to be the best tactical option
- anyone claiming the rules are simplistic really needs to play a game, the core rules might only be 4 pages long but the different ways that the warscrolls interract is profoundly complex and therein lies the tactical depth of the game.

It might sound fairly obvious, but I think the chaos player held the balance of power, large units of multi-wound models are incredibly hard to deal with, I did manage to destroy one of the large warrior blocks but only by throwing half my army at it. My army was essentially designed to be as large as possible without giving away a Sudden Death objective, but even then it was absurdly hard to kill a complete unit.

I find this game heavily favors big blocks. So those MSU's of 20 warriors/10 archers? If you had combined them, they wouldve gotten way better bonuses. 1 unit of 40 is 3-4x as scary as 2 units of 20 skeletal warriors

Venthrac
08-07-2015, 03:55
How are these 'ajustments' going to make it back to GW? It isn't like they have a forum were you can go and post stuff that the developers will read.

For a start, there's apparently a GW rep going around to various hobbyist events and shows (I am hoping to catch him at GenCon), though how much this person collects and relays feedback, I don't have a clue.

Perhaps store managers can pass along whatever feedback they're hearing from their players to the sales reps, if they are so inclined.

Several posters have mentioned calling Games Workshop customer service directly, I suppose the substance of those calls could possibly be relayed from agent to manager and so on.

And of course, it's possible, and perhaps even likely, that the designers and artists themselves surf forums like this, or watch YouTube battle reports, review sites and so on during their down time to see what the world thinks of their creations. I can assure you this is very common practice among game creators.

I honestly have no insight into the process. I can only see avenues where they *could* gather feedback if they wanted it. Whether they do, I don't know.

inquisitorsz
08-07-2015, 05:37
Skaven can't.

Technically 'Wanderer' Aelves can't (Although Sylvaneth can a little.)

Out of the armies I've looked at. (Which is... Wood elves and Skaven haha)

skaven can summon giant rats
woodelves can summon hounds and dryads
Beastmen can summon any monster
bretts, dark elves, dwarves, empire, high elves, orcs and ogres get nothing
Lizards, deamons, chaos and undead get almost everything

It's not overly balanced... I find summoning way too powerful, especially how difficult it can be to dispel. Sure a terrorgheist is a 10 to cast... but with a 2 or more heroes you'll roll it eventually, and you'll be sitting up the back out of range of my dispelling.

WizzyWarlock
08-07-2015, 07:39
I saw that as well, but look at the last sentence again. I read the "playing no part unless fate lends a hand" to mean they have nothing to do with your army at that point, so they don't give their warscroll ability to the wizards in play. So it is really confusing as they are not part of your army as stated, but are part of reserves, which is apparently not part of your army as we would normally think of it, don't have anything to do with the game as they play no part, with the caveat that fate lends a hand, which we don't know if fate means magic, or some other scenario down the road.

I see both sides based on what we would think of reserves in the past, but there are warscrolls that specifically say to put units in reserve that can be used in the game. It seems to make two types of reserves, an army reserve that activates at a specified time from the warscroll, or an active reserve, and also a model collection reserve, which you can't do anything with unless "fate" allows it, or an inactive reserve. That is where my interpretation would be that inactive reserves have nothing to do with the battle, but if an active reserve or model on the table can call upon them, they will become part of the battle. In this case, I would say the wizard doesn't know the warscroll is there because it plays no part in the battle, or as a comparision doesn't know the spell like in 8th edition. In 8th if you didn't roll the spell you didn't get it, but you could have had it if you were lucky, in this case you would have made the choice to know it by placing it down as part of your army. Whatever the case, it isn't real clear, but if you had the limitiation on summoning like that, it seems like it would be less overpowered than how people have been playing it.
I don't know, as that last line doesn't mention any further usage. What I mean is, "You can USE as many models as you wish.", "You will need warscrolls for the models you want to USE.", then the last line doesn't remove the usage, it uses the words, ".. units you want to fight..", instead of units you want to use, and, ".. held in reserve, playing no part..". There doesn't seem to be anything suggesting you remove the warscroll from your selection. Do you have any specific warscroll that mentions reserves? It'll save me having to dig through them all to find one. :-)

Spiney Norman
08-07-2015, 07:54
I find this game heavily favors big blocks. So those MSU's of 20 warriors/10 archers? If you had combined them, they wouldve gotten way better bonuses. 1 unit of 40 is 3-4x as scary as 2 units of 20 skeletal warriors

In hindsight I agree, though we also found that large blocks make for pretty boring drawn out combats, my problem was that the formation I was using required me to have two units of skeleton warriors and two units of skeleton archers and I only have so many skeletons in my collection.

Nightfall Shimmer
08-07-2015, 08:32
From the Guardians of the Deepwood Formation Warscroll:

Forest Spirits: Instead of setting up a Treeman, Treeman Ancient or unit of Dryads
from this battalion on the battlefield, you can place it to one side and say that it is
set up as part of your army in the hidden sanctuaries. In any of your movement
phases, you can transport the unit to the battlefield. When you do, set it up so that
all models are within 3" of a Sylvaneth Wyldwood and more than 9" from any
enemy models. This is their move for that movement phase.

Bloodknight
08-07-2015, 12:55
Not sure if we can draw any conclusions from that as to how summoning is supposed to work for everybody. After all, we've got what, 21 types of shields in the game at the moment?

Venthrac
08-07-2015, 14:47
If I can find the GW rep at GenCon, I will ask for a clarification on summoning. Not sure such a person will be able to do rules questions, but it's worth a try. If nothing else, I can make it clear there is some uncertainty in the community that posts here on WarSeer and that it might be a good clarification for a first FAQ.

Sloordrigg
08-07-2015, 15:34
skaven can summon giant rats
woodelves can summon hounds and dryads
Beastmen can summon any monster
bretts, dark elves, dwarves, empire, high elves, orcs and ogres get nothing
Lizards, deamons, chaos and undead get almost everything

It's not overly balanced... I find summoning way too powerful, especially how difficult it can be to dispel. Sure a terrorgheist is a 10 to cast... but with a 2 or more heroes you'll roll it eventually, and you'll be sitting up the back out of range of my dispelling.

Hello WarSeer community! I lurk no longer!

Skaven can, in fact, summon daemons, too. The way I read it is that every single model with the keywords "Chaos" and "Wizard" knows the summoning spells for ABSOLUTELY EVERY SUMMONABLE DAEMON (check out the keywords on the Verminlords' warscrolls, for example). These spells are not included in the casters' warscrolls for reasons of preserving space (and the reader's sanity) but only listed on the warscrolls of the summonable units since you wouldn't need to know about the spell if you didn't want to summon the units but if you did want to summon the units you'd need the warscroll anyway.
I have to admit I'm rather surprised at all the debate about this everywhere. To me, it seems perfectly clear that this is how the rules are supposed to work.

Of course, balance is another matter entirely :eek:

Spiney Norman
08-07-2015, 15:39
Hello WarSeer community! I lurk no longer!

Skaven can, in fact, summon daemons, too. The way I read it is that every single model with the keywords "Chaos" and "Wizard" knows the summoning spells for ABSOLUTELY EVERY SUMMONABLE DAEMON (check out the keywords on the Verminlords' warscrolls, for example). These spells are not included in the casters' warscrolls for reasons of preserving space (and the reader's sanity) but only listed on the warscrolls of the summonable units – since you wouldn't need to know about the spell if you didn't want to summon the units but if you did want to summon the units you'd need the warscroll anyway.
I have to admit I'm rather surprised at all the debate about this everywhere. To me, it seems perfectly clear that this is how the rules are supposed to work.

Of course, balance is another matter entirely :eek:

The way I read summoning is thus, summoning spells are listed as an ability of the unit being summoned, thus a death wizard only knows how to summon a unit of skeletons of there is already a unit of skeletons on the field etc.

Pacman
08-07-2015, 16:03
The way I read summoning is thus, summoning spells are listed as an ability of the unit being summoned, thus a death wizard only knows how to summon a unit of skeletons of there is already a unit of skeletons on the field etc.

If that were so, how could you summon a named character?

Spiney Norman
08-07-2015, 16:07
If that were so, how could you summon a named character?
As far as I know, you can't summon a named character
Which named characters have an ability that allows them to be summon on their warscroll, I've had a quick look through the daemon, undead and lizardmen scrolls and I can't find one.

Sloordrigg
08-07-2015, 16:27
The way I read summoning is thus, summoning spells are listed as an ability of the unit being summoned, thus a death wizard only knows how to summon a unit of skeletons of there is already a unit of skeletons on the field etc.

But that doesn't make any kind of sense, though, does it? I mean, let's look at this not from the angle of someone who is trying to balance a game mechanic but from the vantage of someone who is using a game mechanic to describe something that is intrinsic to a (high) fantasy universe. What self-respecting necromancer or evil daemonologist sorcerer would have to go out of his way to find some zombies or lesser daemons to walk around with him before he were able to summon them?

It's the keywords that make the rule, not the unit (I think). Also, it's not listed under "Abilities" on the warscroll, but under "Magic" (a different header). Unfortunately, the explanation of the warscrolls in the compendiums makes no explicit reference to the "Magic" section...

Pacman
08-07-2015, 16:45
As far as I know, you can't summon a named character
Which named characters have an ability that allows them to be summon on their warscroll, I've had a quick look through the daemon, undead and lizardmen scrolls and I can't find one.

Have another look at the Lizardmen. Almost all of their ones can be summoned.

Nightfall Shimmer
08-07-2015, 16:46
Summoning is simply as unbalanced in Age of Sigmar as it is in 40K. No matter how I read them, all the daemon warscrolls for example (not read the undead ones) specifically states that the summon spell ADDs the summoned daemon unit to your army after being summoned.

But at the same time, you do sort of have to have a unit in your army before hand to gain access to the spell...

Whereas for the Sylvaneth Branchwraith, -they- have the Dryad summoning spell as their 1 magic spell for being a wizard in their warscroll rather than on the Dryads... And simply ADDs a unit of Dryads to the army...

And then Screech Verminking's '13th Spell' does damage to people and converts the damage into new Clanrats...

In short, it seems to not work like 'Deep Strike Reserves' ala 40K, but litterally adding even more models to your existing army, bound by the limitation of the models in your collection.

Overtninja
08-07-2015, 16:55
I also played with my VC this weekend with similar results. The chaos player I was playing just shook his head and gave me a blank stare at the end of the game. VC are crazy, crazy powerful right now, and I am not sure their really is a way to balance it without using some sort of point system.

You should try to take less dudes, maybe limit summoning - or, now that your opponent knows what you can do, they can field things to accommodate or counter what VC can do. Wounds don't tell you the whole story of a unit's power, after all - especially with 8th models in AoS. I strongly suspect that AoS's rules are going to work better with the new model range, because their models seem to be more multipurpose and operate in more than one turn phase more often.

Points didn't really do the best job of telling you how strong a model was either, but it gave a framework outside of 'know what your own models can do and field accordingly'. The new system doesn't work as well because of unfamiliarity - people either under- or over-estimate how strong things are right now because no one has a firm handle on the new unit rules or synergies or even abilities as they play out on the field. We've all gone from a position of knowledge to a position of ignorance and it's uncomfortable and we have to trade our facility in one system for a lack of one in another. Everyone's salty about it but we'll get better with time.

DeathGlam
08-07-2015, 17:31
No idea how balanced it would be but when it comes to summoning, my group plan to try it in a way that the units we wish to summon are counted as part of our self balanced armies, the summoning will act more like a unit being kept back in reserve, rather then endless amounts of bonus miniatures.

heavyheart
08-07-2015, 18:15
Why do people think we are beta testing? GW's openly said they don't talk to us or really care what we think.

Beta testing only works if you collect data and perform analysis on it.

KingCheops
08-07-2015, 18:40
Have another look at the Lizardmen. Almost all of their ones can be summoned.

Pretty much the only ones who can't be summoned are Kroak and Slann. Because Seraphon are broken but not as broken as Chaos.

Nightfall Shimmer
08-07-2015, 18:55
Why do people think we are beta testing? GW's openly said they don't talk to us or really care what we think.

Beta testing only works if you collect data and perform analysis on it.

I've yet to have taken part in a Beta Test of a game system where feedback has been listened too. At least GW doesn't even bother with the pretense! :P

Ayin
08-07-2015, 18:57
Why do people think we are beta testing? GW's openly said they don't talk to us or really care what we think.

Beta testing only works if you collect data and perform analysis on it.

Same reason people think "rule XYZ can't possibly work that way, it's unbalanced!"

GramercyRiff
08-07-2015, 19:06
So can't any army take any units within their faction/domain/notsurewhatitscalled?

All armies of order can take Seraphon for summoning. Of course this means you have to buy...OH I SEE WHAT YOU DID THERE GW.


Not sure what OG and OK have to buy to get summoning.

Nightfall Shimmer
08-07-2015, 19:37
At the end of the day we have to remember that all our armies are more or less Squatted, and are only in the vaguest sense part of AoS simply to tide us over while they roll out the -actual- armies. And they have if I am not mistaken outright said none of the 'Legacy' Warscrolls have been tuned in any way. So ofc things are going to be unbalanced. We just have to 'fudge' it a bit more than we'd have to for the actual AoS forces.

Ayin
08-07-2015, 19:50
At the end of the day we have to remember that all our armies are more or less Squatted, and are only in the vaguest sense part of AoS simply to tide us over while they roll out the -actual- armies. And they have if I am not mistaken outright said none of the 'Legacy' Warscrolls have been tuned in any way. So ofc things are going to be unbalanced. We just have to 'fudge' it a bit more than we'd have to for the actual AoS forces.

This seems extremely true. It's very likely that it will be impossible to really get an understanding of AoS itself, let alone the functioning of each faction in it, until the actual AoS model/unit base is significantly expanded.

Attilla
08-07-2015, 22:47
This seems extremely true. It's very likely that it will be impossible to really get an understanding of AoS itself, let alone the functioning of each faction in it, until the actual AoS model/unit base is significantly expanded.

I gotta say though, with some balancing, this game is a blast right now. My gaming group has been playing alot of games these past few days and each one of them has been a ton of fun and ended really close. I had so many fears coming into AoS but I've been pleasantly surprised to say the least.

heavyheart
09-07-2015, 00:32
I gotta say though, with some balancing, this game is a blast right now. My gaming group has been playing alot of games these past few days and each one of them has been a ton of fun and ended really close. I had so many fears coming into AoS but I've been pleasantly surprised to say the least.

Good for you but sadly not the experience everyone has had, heck mini war gaming declared AoS unplayable in a video I saw today.

Shandor
09-07-2015, 00:48
I gotta say though, with some balancing, this game is a blast right now. My gaming group has been playing alot of games these past few days and each one of them has been a ton of fun and ended really close. I had so many fears coming into AoS but I've been pleasantly surprised to say the least.

With some balancing? Like changing 90% of the rules? Yeah i think that could work.

leonseeo
10-07-2015, 17:28
You could have an all nurgle army. I do.

I think there's more scope for themed armies in AoS; e.g. you can now have nurgle WoC and daemons in the same army...

Philhelm
10-07-2015, 17:52
I think there's more scope for themed armies in AoS; e.g. you can now have nurgle WoC and daemons in the same army...

Couldn't that be achieved in 8th edition, with allies?

Andy p
10-07-2015, 19:29
Themed armies will be even more penalized than ever in Age of Sigmar.

Except for daemons. My Tzeentch looks filthy.