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Angry Scotsman
06-07-2015, 01:44
I recently was in a tournament and I beat someone so badly that he didn't get a turn 2. After the first turn he was visually disgusted and kept saying ''this is why I don't play anymore''. I felt really bad for the guy because I don't want to make anyone feel like that.... trouble is I worked really hard on my list and his did contain a couple of heldrakes and a knight...


Should I have done something else?

3eland
06-07-2015, 01:48
There was nothing you could do.

Did you shake his hand after? Sometimes it is the things you do after such a defeat that helps (or hopefully helps) their spirit.

AngryAngel
06-07-2015, 01:49
Here it goes, No. When you got into a tournament you should be able to handle tough lists, or not get crazed if you build a tough list and get trounced. It is what it is. All you can do, is shake the hand and offer your thoughts and hopes for better luck in the next round. Some people might just rage and ignore you but that is on them, not on you.

Angry Scotsman
06-07-2015, 01:50
Yeah I shook his hand, apologised a lot said it was just because it was a tourney. Then I spoke with him afterwards for 10 mins about how the game is ruined and its all overpowered stuff. I just don't want people to think less of me because I field a strongish list at a tourney :(

Losing Command
06-07-2015, 02:06
When you go to a tournament, having your army wiped off the table before you did anything should be expected. If you can't handle that, you should not visit tournaments :p

Inquisitor Shego
06-07-2015, 02:55
I recently was in a tournament and I beat someone so badly that he didn't get a turn 2. After the first turn he was visually disgusted and kept saying ''this is why I don't play anymore''. I felt really bad for the guy because I don't want to make anyone feel like that.... trouble is I worked really hard on my list and his did contain a couple of heldrakes and a knight...


Should I have done something else?

See I'd have done the same as him, well plus I'd have said a few choice words of hostile, derogatory value, and flipped the table. Actually, I wouldn't, because I don't play in tournaments, because 40K sure isn't suited for them

Angry Scotsman
06-07-2015, 04:01
Yeah, I will admit that lately I have been powergaming a lot because I want to try to understand tactics more. And having a more survivable army with utility is helping me understand how things like terrain, positioning and volume of dice really make a difference in the game. Instead of trying to blow my enemy up turn 1, I have been working out how best to stay alive so I can hold objectives; how instead of sending in 1 unit to kill an enemy, waiting an extra turn until 3 units are in range to kill the same unit (therefore keeping the 1 unit out of harms way). Too often have I yolo'd units on the whim of the dice only to be rewarded with taking my own models off the table. The match I am talking about the guy did have like I said, 2 helldrakes and a Knight. I think it was the fact that his helldrakes never even got a chance to come on, combined with his turn 1 knight death seem to unsettle him. I told him how at my first tournament my fluffy list got trashed in every game and how it changed the way I play. I just don't want to upset people but then again don't want to just give them a free win. Don't like the thought of people thinking "this guy is an ass with his meta-gaming". Pretty much rambling now, hope this guilt leaves XD

Inquisitor Shego
06-07-2015, 04:04
Don't feel bad about it, scotsman. 95%+ people enter a tournament to win. Just dont go stomping 10 year olds with their dark vengeance starter armies and it's alright

3eland
06-07-2015, 04:25
Well don't you usually pay to enter a tournament? So you are giving up your own money in hopes to make it back (or make something back).

Also you will most likely never seen him (or anyone else there) again outside of any further tournaments so even if you did bump into him (or anyone else there) I doubt he would really remember you.

Grand Master Raziel
06-07-2015, 15:04
I took a balanced (4th ed) Dark Angels list to a 5th ed tournament once. Got roundly trounced all 3 games, but I did get a lot of compliments on my balanced list. And I won a sportsmanship prize - that's how my IG got their Hellhound.

If the guy brought Heldrakes and a Knight to the tournament, he was at least aware of what to expect from a tournament and was trying to rise to the occasion. Sometimes matchups are just very paper-rock-scissorsy. He may have had unusually bad dice luck, you may have had unusually good dice luck. Plus, Chaos Marines (I gather) vs Eldar (I gather, from the lists you've described in the past). That's what's widely regarded as the weakest book in the game vs what's widely regarded as the strongest book.

If it makes you feel better, in his next game he probably got a better matchup. I imagine the first round of a tourney is most prone to mismatches because opponents are selected solely by random draw. Second round, people are paired up by whether they won or lost.

jet_palero
07-07-2015, 23:28
When you go to a tournament, having your army wiped off the table before you did anything should be expected. If you can't handle that, you should not visit tournaments :p

That really sounds like a badly designed game though.

Asura Varuna
07-07-2015, 23:47
Sounds like you played Eldar...

Mr. Shine
08-07-2015, 00:04
Sounds like you played Eldar...

Sounds more like his opponent placed all of his immediate eggs in one basket (the Knight) and too many of his other eggs in a basket that arrived too late (Helldrakes), irrespective of the OP's army choice.

Cordolf
08-07-2015, 00:59
First in a tournament things like that is going to happen, but at the same time I know how the other guy feels. I remember back when I first started playing if you didn't get first turn you at lest had a chance to recover and try and make a go of the game, but now it seems that is no longer the case. Using my own experience at my local store just this past weekend I saw four games being played 2 finished on the first half of turn one and the other two where finished by the top of turn two. in all cases the games ended with losing sided being tabled. First game I saw was a marine army vs Eldar (not sure on the formations used) but in less than one turn the eldar player had tabled a 1850 Pt marine army before he could even make a roll other than a sv. From what the other players where saying and from what I saw this is a common thing. It basically has gotten to the point ( from my point of view) that the game is being determined by who ever wins the roll for turn one which it shouldn't be. If a game is decided by one roll before the game even starts why should we ever bother minis. Again this is mostly based on the meta I have seen played here so I could be completely wrong but I think that is how the OP's opponent is feeling.

Moirdryd
08-07-2015, 03:23
I normally give first turn to my opponent if I win the roll to decide. Going second if you understand some set-up strategies etc can be a game winning boon.

Mr. Shine
08-07-2015, 04:23
I normally give first turn to my opponent if I win the roll to decide. Going second if you understand some set-up strategies etc can be a game winning boon.

This. I almost always allow my opponent to go first unless there's an objective or other opportunity that's too good to risk giving up.

AngryAngel
08-07-2015, 07:07
Sounds more like his opponent placed all of his immediate eggs in one basket (the Knight) and too many of his other eggs in a basket that arrived too late (Helldrakes), irrespective of the OP's army choice.

Oh no, I'm sure it is just because of playing Eldar.

Bodacious2182
08-07-2015, 18:29
I say good riddance.

The way I see it a person has two choices after being roflstomped.

1: Have a good attitude, ask my opponent where I made mistakes and lean from them, and then adapt my list, strategy and tactics to become a better player.
2: Have a poor attitude, complain about the rules, demand they be changed, and probably quit the game altogether.

I choose the former. And I believe this to be the case no matter how out of whack some books can get.

I will admit though, that in some cases, due to a seeming rock, paper, scissors nature this game can have sometimes, it could be just a horrible match up. Doesn't seem so in this case, but I have seen it lots of times.

jeffersonian000
08-07-2015, 19:04
Sounds like you guys play of planet bowling ball. Proper line of sight blocking terrain prevents first turn tabling.

SJ


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Anteater
08-07-2015, 19:13
I say good riddance.

The way I see it a person has two choices after being roflstomped.

1: Have a good attitude, ask my opponent where I made mistakes and lean from them, and then adapt my list, strategy and tactics to become a better player.
2: Have a poor attitude, complain about the rules, demand they be changed, and probably quit the game altogether.

I choose the former. And I believe this to be the case no matter how out of whack some books can get.

I will admit though, that in some cases, due to a seeming rock, paper, scissors nature this game can have sometimes, it could be just a horrible match up. Doesn't seem so in this case, but I have seen it lots of times.

It may also depent on how the winning player responds. He/she also has 2 options:

1: Ah what a shame. Better luck next time! *helpful tip* Bye!
2: LOL YOU SUCK WHY ARE YOU PLAYING THIS GAME WITH YOUR STUPID MINI'S LOOK AT YOU PATHETIC HAHAHAHA YOU LOST YOU GOT WRECKED OUT THERE!

Not saying your wrong, but if somebody implies the second option on me, I'm more likely to also be agressive against them, you know?

Cheers, Anteater

jet_palero
09-07-2015, 02:09
Sounds like you guys play of planet bowling ball. Proper line of sight blocking terrain prevents first turn tabling.

SJ


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

But its pretty hard to make terrain that's solid enough to block all avenues of LOS isn't it? I really dislike TLOS as a game design feature. I liked it better when terrain features just blocked LOS based on their type and base size.

Elector Gor
09-07-2015, 02:20
In fantasy I play Beastmen as my tournament army. On occasion I get wiped (wink wink), the worst thing someone can do is apologize.
I hate that, I can handle getting tabled by good or cheesy builds. I just don't want you to apologize for it. If your sorry your list worked exactly like you designed it, I'm ok with that. Also if your really are sorry then don't take that build.

Asura Varuna
09-07-2015, 04:00
Sounds more like his opponent placed all of his immediate eggs in one basket (the Knight) and too many of his other eggs in a basket that arrived too late (Helldrakes), irrespective of the OP's army choice.

Most armies would struggle to deal with this sort of a list though. Even if it's the only thing the table, most armies can't destroy a Knight in a single turn of shooting... Unless they're packing a dozen ranged D weapons on cheap infantry platforms, or very deliberately geared against AV13 with manoeuvrability to circumvent the shield. Considering Eldar are the only faction that can do the former, and one of the few factions that can effectively do the latter, I think the OP's army choice has quite a lot to do with the ease of this victory here. Also, a Knight and 2 Helldrakes is still <750 points, it's hard to claim that that's all the eggs in a single basket, without first knowing how many points this game was being played at.

Out of curiosity, Angry Scotsman, what was the list you took for this game?

3eland
09-07-2015, 04:49
We don't even know what army the OP brought or the list.

tu33y
09-07-2015, 08:58
i think we have all done old (pre 5th powerhouse) necrons in a turn and a half...

Spiney Norman
09-07-2015, 10:20
But its pretty hard to make terrain that's solid enough to block all avenues of LOS isn't it? I really dislike TLOS as a game design feature. I liked it better when terrain features just blocked LOS based on their type and base size.

Yep, other than the bastion I don't think GW make any terrain that completely blocks LoS, and a bastion isn't exactly massive. For some reason modelling your terrain for advantage seems to be much more acceptable than modelling your miniatures for advantage ;)

To be completely honest bringing a knight against new Eldar he ought to have seen the defeat coming, he basically brought paper to your scissors, but this is yet another example why 40k is a horrible, horrible game when played competitively.

Greavous
09-07-2015, 10:27
never been to a tournament so i dont know how it works but as said before he just brought paper to a scissors fight.
but as far as i know you dont know what everyone else will have so he jsut got unlucky to face off against his perfect (i guess) counter.
also by the sounds of it you got a higher than average hit - wound and he got lower than average saves, for all we know he could have tabled the next guy just the same.

just think, luck was against him, s**t happens.

Denny
09-07-2015, 10:31
But its pretty hard to make terrain that's solid enough to block all avenues of LOS isn't it?

:wtf:

Make a large building. Don't add windows (or have bordered up windows). Done.
Its much easier than, say, making a building with big holes in it you can see through, because that involves more work. ;)

Kazzerscout
09-07-2015, 10:34
I've had games with friends recently that have resulted in me refusing to play again that evening and saying exactly that... 'This is why I don't play anymore'. Playing Chaos Marines, IG and Dark Angels against Tau, AdMech or Necrons is bloody torture.

Greavous
09-07-2015, 10:56
I've had games with friends recently that have resulted in me refusing to play again that evening and saying exactly that... 'This is why I don't play anymore'. Playing Chaos Marines, IG and Dark Angels against Tau, AdMech or Necrons is bloody torture.

it may just be your army choices, my last 2 games against IG (playing as tau) ive been completly stomped and almost tabled, so much AV13 and cover saves (go to ground or his aegis wall) i could hardly dent it.

getting sick of my tau losing tbh starting to feel like they have to be played one way or nothing. (actually got a bit angry, not at him at my army, last game, tried not to show it though)

Kazzerscout
09-07-2015, 11:09
it may just be your army choices

Of this I have no doubt, infantry with lasguns don't do much against 4 Kastelan Robots. One of my main issues is how my opponents seem utterly remorseless with regards to their builds in friendly games. At least the OP of this thread feels a bit downtrodden at the prospect of making someone feel this way. It seems to me a lot of people pass it off as 'it's in the book therefore it must be fair!'

Greavous
09-07-2015, 11:21
Of this I have no doubt, infantry with lasguns don't do much against 4 Kastelan Robots. One of my main issues is how my opponents seem utterly remorseless with regards to their builds in friendly games. At least the OP of this thread feels a bit downtrodden at the prospect of making someone feel this way. It seems to me a lot of people pass it off as 'it's in the book therefore it must be fair!'

i suppose if its in the book by the rules its a fair game as its is legal, but on the aspect of a good game its cheap and brutal.
in friendly games if it happens and the game is fast id say okay lets play again and change your tactics e.g. more cover, key targets, etc and if you still lose then its either lack of counter (high S weapons) or just poor tactics (my problem usually).

but i can honestly say if i ever played anyone as bad and as emotionless as people here have said i would just outright refuse to play them again. your army is overpowered and broken, i cannot beat you, i refuse to play a game i know i will lose and not enjoy.

Spiney Norman
09-07-2015, 12:32
:wtf:

Make a large building. Don't add windows (or have bordered up windows). Done.
Its much easier than, say, making a building with big holes in it you can see through, because that involves more work. ;)

Just 'make' a building? Out of what, cardboard? The building kits that GW produce are all full of windows (bastion exception already acknowledged). Now granted you could just plonk an empty cereal packet down on the table and say it's a building, but some of us are more into the visual spectacle than that.

Weavetoucher
09-07-2015, 13:18
I have several of the ruins kits built as buildings I used the solid sections on the bottom floor to create LOS blocking then the window sections on the upper floors for shooting out while gaining cover bonuses. I can park a wyvern or basilisk behind some of them with no TLOS to them unless enemy moves round them.

aprilmanha
09-07-2015, 14:45
Just 'make' a building? Out of what, cardboard? The building kits that GW produce are all full of windows (bastion exception already acknowledged). Now granted you could just plonk an empty cereal packet down on the table and say it's a building, but some of us are more into the visual spectacle than that.
You could just use some crafting skills and turn that cereal box into an appealing building then?
A bit of cutting and some hot glue gunning and some careful painting and you can make a few tower blocks.

Konovalev
09-07-2015, 17:27
Just 'make' a building? Out of what, cardboard?

Er... yes? I can't be the only one that does that. Card board building with PVA, spray it with textured paint to give it a stone/concrete look, hit it with a dry brush for a little weathering, and you're done. Want to add a little more flavor? Put some nicks in it for bullet holes, maybe free-hand some graffiti on it, now it looks even better.

I get that we're being trolled here, but I'm not sure what the punchline is supposed to be? Are we playing under the assumption that GW games may only be played with GW models, terrain pieces are models, therefore GW games may only be played with GW terrain or something?

TheKillerCoyote
09-07-2015, 17:47
Yeah, I kind of broke someone the other day.
We were both playing Tau in a Kill Team league. It was an objective-based scenario where we were supposed to take three objectives along the board's centerline. I had 10 Fire Warriors with Carbines, and 2 Piranhas with 2x seeker missiles each. He had 6 Fire Warriors, a Battlesuit with a Shield Generator and twin linked pulse rifle, and a unit of Sniper Drones.
By turn 3, his Battlesuit had taken a seeker to the face that had bypassed his SG, all but 2 of his troops were dead, I had claimed every objective on the board, and had bracketed his forces with deployed gun drones and my still functional piranhas. He had inflicted casualties on 2 fire warriors.
He quit the game, threw his phone on the table and LITERALLY WALKED OUTSIDE TO CRY IN THE RAIN.
Seriously, I felt like Bane.
It took all my strength not to lean out of the door after him and shout, 'When your sniper drones are ashes, THEN you have my permission to cry!'
Not exactly a 'guilty' victory, but deeply amusing to my inner sadist.

3eland
09-07-2015, 21:55
Yeah, I kind of broke someone the other day.
We were both playing Tau in a Kill Team league. It was an objective-based scenario where we were supposed to take three objectives along the board's centerline. I had 10 Fire Warriors with Carbines, and 2 Piranhas with 2x seeker missiles each. He had 6 Fire Warriors, a Battlesuit with a Shield Generator and twin linked pulse rifle, and a unit of Sniper Drones.
By turn 3, his Battlesuit had taken a seeker to the face that had bypassed his SG, all but 2 of his troops were dead, I had claimed every objective on the board, and had bracketed his forces with deployed gun drones and my still functional piranhas. He had inflicted casualties on 2 fire warriors.
He quit the game, threw his phone on the table and LITERALLY WALKED OUTSIDE TO CRY IN THE RAIN.
Seriously, I felt like Bane.
It took all my strength not to lean out of the door after him and shout, 'When your sniper drones are ashes, THEN you have my permission to cry!'
Not exactly a 'guilty' victory, but deeply amusing to my inner sadist.

O_O

Lol

Oh my.

TheKillerCoyote
09-07-2015, 22:24
"Ahhh... You think cover saves are your ally?
I was BORN with a cover save, MOLDED by it.
I didn't go outside until I was a man..."

insectum7
09-07-2015, 22:36
A buddy of mine had a Knights/Grey Knights army for tournaments. If I remember, his rolled warlord trait allowed him to outflank with some of his Knights, and he decided to put two of three in reserve. Otherwise I think he had two DreadKnights and some Grey Knights Deep Striking turn 1. (some variation of this, don't quite recall)

My Drop Pods filled with Sternguard and Command Squad, backed up by supporting fire from the rest of the army tabled him turn 1.

We decided to go again, and the same thing happened again, tabled turn 1.

Third time around he decided not to put the Knights in reserve, and he came back and won our third game. Good times, good times.


I usually gave the option for people to choose to fight the Drop Pod army or not. But those meltagun wielding veterans have initiated some of my most guilty feeling wins. Turn 1 Warhound detonations, stuff like that.

Sotek
09-07-2015, 22:52
Your opponent sounds like an idiot. 40k is a game of listhammer roflstomping. If he can't handle that then don't attempt to play 40k competitively. It's not like people going to tournaments are going to 'play fair' and use anything less than the most overpowered list they can field.

Bodacious2182
10-07-2015, 00:04
The two scenarios I have seen where this has happened have been either total noobs with only models out of a box set or a straight up poor decision maker. The noobs are self-explanitory but the poor decision makers just do some weird stuff. Taking silly options on silly units, etc. One time I played a guy that I table he deep stuck a unit of CSM terminators and a lord right behind a rhino and a vindicator. What does he shoot? The rhino of course. Vindicator whips around a wipes the unit with one shot.

Snake Tortoise
10-07-2015, 00:15
One of the best things I've taken from 40k forums/BoLS etc. is knowing just how powerful some of the top tournament builds are, and accepting that the sort of army I like to create (semi competitive, a balance between effective and fluffy) will get brutally battered by many armies out there. I'm okay with that, but I had to go through a bit of nerdrage on the way

OTOH I'd like to make sure the opponent knows that I don't think a chaos dread is a competitive choice and the army I'm fielding isn't my best effort at winning games. There might be something a bit cowardly/vain about that, but it would hurt my ego if the opponent thought I was unwittingly sending a lamb to the slaughter

For fluff I can simply imagine that this is what would happen if my Alpha Legion weren't scheming and manipulative. They'd never march into battle against optimised eldar with lots of D weapons if this were real life... they'd refuse to engage, nuke them from orbit, send imperium forces or a few titans instead. In my head the Alpha Legion always win, and by extension I always win :D

Kburn
10-07-2015, 00:23
Anyone playing 40k in a competitive setting deserves to get stomped. There are literally no battlefield tactics in 40k, and you can pretty much decide a tournament by looking at the armylists and picking out the strongest.

If you want to play a tournament which where your tactical ability has any effect, play literally any non-GW game

insectum7
10-07-2015, 03:04
Your opponent sounds like an idiot.

My opponent was a friend of mine, and certainly not an idiot. Thanks.

He was just expecting a collection of pretty tough models to weather the storm. It just didn't, that's why there are trial matches before tournaments. And hey, he came back and won it.

Spell_of_Destruction
10-07-2015, 07:29
Anyone playing 40k in a competitive setting deserves to get stomped. There are literally no battlefield tactics in 40k, and you can pretty much decide a tournament by looking at the armylists and picking out the strongest.

If you want to play a tournament which where your tactical ability has any effect, play literally any non-GW game

I'm sorry but that's nonsense. 40k is not a tactically deep game but it certainly has tactics. It can be a bit gamey (which is a criticism that can be levelled against most GW games). Even with a power list, you still need to execute your strategy effectively even if that simply means target prioritisation. I've seen plenty of power lists in the hands of incompetents and the player does make a big difference.

Greavous
10-07-2015, 10:17
I'm sorry but that's nonsense. 40k is not a tactically deep game but it certainly has tactics. It can be a bit gamey (which is a criticism that can be levelled against most GW games). Even with a power list, you still need to execute your strategy effectively even if that simply means target prioritisation. I've seen plenty of power lists in the hands of incompetents and the player does make a big difference.

also note my signature, you can make the most powerful list in the game but roll continunous 1's for the whole game.
happened in my last game first 3 turns rolled mostly 5s and 6s (hit and wound 14/16 shots every turn) and he faield every save.
then turn 4 and 5 it switched i got 1s and 2s he got every save, to say things dont work only matters in theory and list building, on the battlefield it can be quiet different.

heavyheart
11-07-2015, 16:04
I've beaten people in the first turn aswell and then it's just mop up after that it never feel's like much of a victory.

I don't like when people try to make you feel bad for the first turn going against them but i do sympathise when you lose the game because you didn't go first and 50% of your force got wiped out.

It's why i don't like 7th there's so much strong shooting going first is a massive advantage and there's nothing to balance it out for the other guy.

TheKillerCoyote
11-07-2015, 16:40
I don't necessarily agree with that, HH, as you ARE able to set up terrain to provide you with a decent cover save against shooting.
Also, since you CAN keep units in ongoing reserve, that keeps them safe till later in the game, when they can come at the enemy from an unexpected angle and do some damage.
Basically, if you stay out of LOS and deploy properly, Turn 1 tabling shouldn't happen, at least not very often.

3eland
11-07-2015, 17:33
I don't necessarily agree with that, HH, as you ARE able to set up terrain to provide you with a decent cover save against shooting.
Also, since you CAN keep units in ongoing reserve, that keeps them safe till later in the game, when they can come at the enemy from an unexpected angle and do some damage.
Basically, if you stay out of LOS and deploy properly, Turn 1 tabling shouldn't happen, at least not very often.

Agreed.

Words and stuff.

Konovalev
13-07-2015, 05:41
Anyone playing 40k in a competitive setting deserves to get stomped. There are literally no battlefield tactics in 40k, and you can pretty much decide a tournament by looking at the armylists and picking out the strongest.

If you want to play a tournament which where your tactical ability has any effect, play literally any non-GW game

Age of Sigmar has brought out the hate brigade in full force. It's funny how these people don't realize how obvious they're being.

RevEv
13-07-2015, 10:42
I learnt a great deal from an opponent who was a tournament player. On our first game he tabled me. I just persevered and enjoyed many more games against him.

It also taught me I wasn't cut out for tournaments

Don't feel bad for your choice of army or your result.