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dragonelf
06-07-2015, 15:40
I am finding the debate about who GW are targetting and where they are aiming to get their revenue from somewhat puzzling. It doesn't make any sense to me.

If, as people are saying, GW doesnt care about its existing customer base, and they are trying to attract new younger buyers, then this is an incredibly stupid strategy. It means you have to replace the customers that leave you with the ones that you are trying to recruit.

Surely the most obvious basic principle should be followed.

Firstly, whatever the product, it is more likely to sell if it is of good quality. Do you think the makers of the new Star Wars film thought to themselves, we dont care about the people who watched it 30 years ago, they're all old, we want the new kids. They targetted all of them.

This is why I find this release so bewildering. It doesn't need to be a choice. You should aim to make a great product. It should offer simplicity and interest for new players and scaleable complexity to existing/competitive/adult players. Why not try and capture the most people? Make a great game that keeps your existing loyal customers and adds new ones.

Existing players like me who left fantasy usually left it for GW reasons. We didn't like a particular ruleset (for me it was 8th edition) for example. I am itching to get back into fantasy and have rules I can enjoy and models I will love. The model line for AoS looks like it is going to be fantastic, all they needed to do was invest the same energy into reasonable rules and I would have likely brought all my gaming group with me. The game system is the foundation for everything else, why would I buy and paint models if the game is rubbish.

Instead they offer rules that are actually not player friendly in any way. No diagrams, walls of text, no examples, just a basic framework and then we are told to get on with it. They don't even state how long the game lasts! Not to balance the game in some way is frankly negligent. Every game of any type I can think of has a balancing mechanic. Equal number of players on each side, equal pieces on each side, equal turns, whatever it may be. No one expects the players themselves to micromanage their own game. Forget about tabletop games, I am talking games in general.

I cannot believe anyone at GW is genuinely proud of this product as a game. If they are, then they are staggeringly incompetent. It has a sense of insulting its customers, by not doing them the service of actually writing proper rules. Monopoly has more rules than this. My son is at the right age where I would have introduced him to tabletop gaming. As it stands he is going to grow out of this game in about 3 months. If they think kids aren't going to get bored of this then they are about to get a big surprise. Kids aren't stupid, they need constant engagement and variety, more so than adults. This will be far too mundane for them.

Anyway, rant over. I hope releases in the coming months prove me wrong.

Shakkara
06-07-2015, 15:50
Wrong forum, and a repeat of 50 million other threads about this topic.

Elithis Lives
06-07-2015, 15:52
Well, I am in my late 30's with a family of my own now. I haven't picked up a miniature to play a game with in well over a decade. I have painted my collection (still no-where near finished) and kept up to date with the background and rules but never once felt like getting back into actually playing the games or purchasing any new models or games.

However, the AoS game has actually made me sit up and seriously consider how to get the purchase past the missus without her noticing. And this is coming from someone who had serious misgivings about the wholesale changes which were both rumoured and, now, come to pass.

While I have no doubt that these changes will definitely not be to everyone's taste, I can certainly understand GW's marketing ploy and feel it is a bold move worthy of admiration, even if you do not like it.

I certainly hope to get my kids involved in this new enterprise and I very much hope that AoS has a similar impact on other's like me and the vast untapped market who have never before plumbed the depths of GW.

Whatever direction people feel they need to take following this change, I certainly hope they enjoy it!

kernow bys vyken!

speshul dwarf
06-07-2015, 16:12
Why is this in the rumour forum? Can someone move it?

microCACTUS
06-07-2015, 16:24
It's a nice change of pace, rather than starting a discussion with a rumor and then going off topic,
to immediately start off with controversial personal views right off the bat.

By the way, if you want to live a happier life with less salt, you should stop looking at the legacy army stats they provided entirely.

Immediately. Pretend they never existed.

Same for the "base doesn't count, measure from the model" rule.

These things were added by GW just to allow for fun half-compatible games with legacy armies.

Age of Sigmar currently has two playable factions, in a single formation: the one in the starting box.

The rest of the rules, outside of the box, to play with old GW toys on square bases, are just there for fun, like the unbalanced lists at the end of standard army books.

The Empire already doesn't make sense, since it's replaced by the Stormcast.

When the Seraphons come out, Lizardmen won't make sense and so on.

Slowly the old stats they provided will remain behind.

They already said that only those lists will have those joke rules.

So, currently, Age of Sigmar, the game, has 2 playable factions in the limited one formation they are boxed in.
None of these factions have special rules with dancing or singing, and you can play with no base stacking just measuring from the base.
The "army lists" are rigid, unchangeable but balanced.
The current game as is has no flexibility whatsoever.

Then there's the bunch of guff they put online for old factions and "playing bigger games". That is trash waiting to be replaced. Nothing more. That is not Age of Sigmar. That's placeholder junk.

The legacy armies are one last smile of GW to their old factions.
But since it's GW the smile is creepy, awkward and insincere.

Up to this point we only have the box. Nice miniatures, minimal rules with no flexibility, minimal lore.
It is a tiny, tiny new game. Which becomes a bloated and mindless mess if you add to it the goofy Munchkin unbalanced legacy rules.
But you shouldn't.

When you think of Age of Sigmar, if you want to keep your sanity and some hope, you should look at it like this: it is a tiny unflexible monothematic game, waiting to be expanded upon in the following months.
Until then, the only thing we know of the ACTUAL Age of Sigmar is the Sigmarines fighting the Khornites, over, and over, and over again with no change or flexibility.
That's the only two factions released. Those are the only rules released. More is to come later.

And stop playing (or even looking at) legacy factions or you'll swell with bile and explode.

Teurastaja
06-07-2015, 16:37
I really, honestly don't get people who are excited about this game. Four pages of rules is what we get. FOUR pages of lackluster rules. AoS doesn't hold it's own against any other skirmish game out there. I's just boring even as a beer-game. It has great minis but that's really it. There's no balancing mechanism and social aspect of wargaming got turned upside down - I can't really go to new places and meet new people like I do while playing WFB, 40k, WMH and Infinity because AoS requires me to negotiate with people. I can't just pack my bag and travel somewhere because I may not reach consensus with my opponents. It's weird and confusing.

HammerofThunor
06-07-2015, 16:51
Basically agree with microCACTUS over the legacy rules. Just something they pumped out so people 'could' play with their models while the new stuff fills out. As for target, well, people who like the models. I'm mean there have been loads of people on here talking about using KOW rules for their current minis. Well if you like the new models but not the rules, but the models and use them for a different rule set. If you like the world, proxy the KOW rules for the Warhammer would. If you're not too fussed about having solid rules then it's also for you. But their main aim is selling models so their target audience is people who like the models.

dragonelf
06-07-2015, 18:03
I am assuming that most people won't simply buy the models because they are nice. They will want to use them in the gaming environment. I repeat what I said, make the best product you can and people will want it. Especially hobby customers who are usually susceptible to reckless spending on collections, and emotional investment in their hobby. It would have taken very very little to snare me into AoS. But I am not going to waste my time doing games designer's job for them. The very fact that they didn't want to do it in the first place bothers me!

To me it shows that GW no longer take pride in their products, or care very much about their customers. Why do you think store managers are fire fighting right now.s

HammerofThunor
06-07-2015, 18:21
what do you base that assumption on? And why does the gaming environment have to be GW related? Why not one of the 'superior' systems?

dragonelf
06-07-2015, 18:27
I don't have any hard numbers but I am assuming that some people play the game for the painting/hobby aspect, some play for the gaming/tactics/army list building aspect and some for both. The gaming enivronment doesn't have to be GW but the transition is much more seemless if the models are for the same company's gaming system. For a start as a GW collector I may not be familiar with other systems. Games like warmachine and hordes for example design their models with their system in mind. I am not saying it is impossible but frustrating and unnecessary.

Remember we are the customers. They should be trying to make life as happy and pleasureable from buying their products as possible so we buy more. Not making us work to make their game and models useful.

HammerofThunor
06-07-2015, 18:45
I've never played other systems. I'm only going off what people have said on here. I've just had a quick look on their website and it seems high elves, dark elves, humans, orcs, goblins, chaos dwarves, dwarves are covered. Bolt throwers, boar riders, and all that. No idea how they look side by side, but you could go all with one or the other if you wished. Kings of War seems like a direct rip off of GW (who ripped it off themselves) so seems directly comparable. Rules are supposed to be free and very good and comptable with the models.

But not buying GW models you like because you don't like the rules seems daft if there are rules you could use (and like). It would be like not buying a playstation because you don't like Sony TVs or not using windows because bing is ****. There are legit reasons not to have them but those aren't them.

if GW keep saying their a miniature company then treat them like one. But their models to use with other systems if you like them. If you don't, don't buy them. If you're just interested in a 'fun' game and AOS ticks the box then crack on with that. That is the service they currently offer.

the only issue I can see is if the GW are vastly superior and the KOW rules are also (and cheap) then it would be bad for KOW. I suppose.

dragonelf
06-07-2015, 19:25
Shame my armies are tomb kings, lizardmen and skaven! No KoW equivalent. I bet they're licking their lips at the moment.

The current AoS models are not usable with KoW for various reasons such as size, number, base size etc.

AmPm
06-07-2015, 19:26
To me AoS seems to follow the business model of a F2P PC game.

"Sure, you can play with your old stuff, and you can play with only a little bit of stuff. But wouldn't it be so much COOLER if you could have all this stuff? Also, look how we made this stuff better so you want to buy it!"

It's a good business model in the same way CCG's, F2P games, etc. are. It encourages continuous purchases for advantage/reward. Really GW just had no choice. The company has been failing for years, they have pushed a lot of their IP out into a digital medium trying to make up ground, and they are trimming the fat so to speak on what they support. They want to capture the same kind of market appeal X-Wing TMG has. People buy the blisters for the ship, or to try something, or just for the cards. Unfortunately, X-Wing has more depth than AoS...by far...

I would love to have a reason to add more to my Beastmen army. But after years of neglect I've moved to other games, many of them filling the role that AoS wants to try and fill. Too little, too late, and not enough influence.

Captain Idaho
06-07-2015, 20:23
Target audience appears to be children but I concur with the higher up posts - this game has no longevity and kids will be bored easily. Throw all your models on the table and it gets even more predictable and boring and repetitive.

What I don't understand is why GW did this when 40K is successful and has a more balanced game and army building and variance in the table of play? I mean really? What model are they copying? Their competitors aren't doing this. 40K isn't doing this. Why is this a good idea in light of that?

dragonelf
06-07-2015, 20:29
F2P games give you a good game for free and offer you bonuses that you can pay for. This game asks you to buy the models with no decent game to support them. It's not free to play. It's pay and play a bad game.

tmod
06-07-2015, 23:56
Shame my armies are tomb kings, lizardmen and skaven! No KoW equivalent. I bet they're licking their lips at the moment.

The current AoS models are not usable with KoW for various reasons such as size, number, base size etc.

Lizardmen and Ratmen are supported in KoW... Dunno about Tomb Kings, but check their forum! :-)


I've never played other systems. I'm only going off what people have said on here. I've just had a quick look on their website and it seems high elves, dark elves, humans, orcs, goblins, chaos dwarves, dwarves are covered. Bolt throwers, boar riders, and all that. No idea how they look side by side, but you could go all with one or the other if you wished. Kings of War seems like a direct rip off of GW (who ripped it off themselves) so seems directly comparable. Rules are supposed to be free and very good and comptable with the models.

But not buying GW models you like because you don't like the rules seems daft if there are rules you could use (and like). It would be like not buying a playstation because you don't like Sony TVs or not using windows because bing is ****. There are legit reasons not to have them but those aren't them.

if GW keep saying their a miniature company then treat them like one. But their models to use with other systems if you like them. If you don't, don't buy them. If you're just interested in a 'fun' game and AOS ticks the box then crack on with that. That is the service they currently offer.

the only issue I can see is if the GW are vastly superior and the KOW rules are also (and cheap) then it would be bad for KOW. I suppose.
KoW is made by the guys who designed whfb 6th edition, so similarities should be expected. Not aimed at you, but I find it funny how many claims GW's competitors are hacks who rip them off; all the great designers from GW (sans Jervis Johnson) have moved on, most to competing companies...


Sent fra min GT-I9506 via Tapatalk

jet_palero
07-07-2015, 03:58
Target audience appears to be children but I concur with the higher up posts - this game has no longevity and kids will be bored easily. Throw all your models on the table and it gets even more predictable and boring and repetitive.

What I don't understand is why GW did this when 40K is successful and has a more balanced game and army building and variance in the table of play? I mean really? What model are they copying? Their competitors aren't doing this. 40K isn't doing this. Why is this a good idea in light of that?

GW has hit an "I believe" button (to use some business speak). Management had an idea, and in a company of yes men (look at how they say they hire), everyone on down the line hits the button and does what they're told. Its the same idea as what happened in the star wars prequels and how bad ideas made it past so many people.

GW has mashed the button so hard, they killed an existing product line when they didn't need to. AoS could have existed alongside WFB just like 30k exists alongside 40k. They're changing signs, web pages, advertisements. . . and they're throwing away years and years of setting construction.

That new video game everyone's talking about? Its advertising a system they no longer support. They took down the bloody space marine statue for crying out loud. GW has hit this button so hard, they'll be eyeball deep in cognitive dissonance if it doesn't succeed.

And I'd bet dollars to donuts they're already planning to do something identical to 40k. Because when you hit the "I believe" button, facts don't matter anymore.