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View Full Version : Clearing up ambiguity in AOS



Tzar Boris
07-07-2015, 02:28
Have you discovered something that sounds odd and you're not quite sure what it means in AOS?

Let's make a compilation. My biggest is this -

"Any unit that has charged or has models within 3" of an enemy unit can attack with its melee weapons in the combat phase."

versus

"In order to attack an enemy unit, an enemy model from that unit must be in range of the attacking weapon (i.e. within the maximum distance, in inches, of the Range listed for the weapon making the attack)"

It's obvious to me what it means, now. Melee weapons have, generally, a maximum range of 3" anyway, so they've made sure you maximise your chances by piling in with your spears and stuff.

However, it's unnecessarily ambiguous and on first reading I wondered if I should be using ALL the attacks available from models within 3". But no, it's first "rank" only for swords, two "ranks" for spears etc. I feel there's room to mention the old Empire detachments at this point and how tactically you could maybe now have a thin line of swords, with a second unit of spears charging in behind them to support - much like you would in a LOTR game. But as they're not the same unit, your swordsmen would effectively block the spearmen behind. Boo. Back to flanking for no real bonus. (however this becomes even more odd if you include the model to model measure as opposed to base to base. The spearmen COULD charge from behind the swordsmen if they were modelled with appropriately forward thrusting spears and see from the tips of those - pointing in front of your swordsmen, but models with shouldered spears wouldn't. Plus give me an hour and I'll put together a charging block of Spearmen that can have five guys deep within 3" of an enemy when bases are discounted. And that's just plain silly.)

The same applies to Heroes in units. There's no reason for your hero NOT to be "attached" to unit. So long as he doesn't interrupt the 1" unit coherency rule of the unit he's with. The contentious element is of course in attributing damage from shooting (in combat, so long as you identify who the hero is fighting, no problems should arise) - but as any good Skaven player will tell you, stick him in the back/middle. Your hero is a different unit, and in the centre of another unit he can't be picked out by snipers. Unless he's on a monster/horse amongst Infantry for LOS. So get those Chieftans/Generals back in their units. Third Rank. Middle. Until charge/piling in time comes. I'd be willing to accept a rule that unless you see 33% or more of the "body" of a model, it doesn't count as LOS. This could make hills/buildings useful for snipers too, taking headshots, as they should be.


There's a couple of others that have seen cropping up.

"I can shoot whilst in combat." - No, you can't, technically. It specifically says in the above sentence you attack with melee weapons and clarifies at the top of page 4 -
"Missile weapons can be used in the shooting phase, and melee weapons can be used in the combat phase. "

The rules fail to mention though that units within 3" that REMAIN within 3" cannot shoot or must make a semi-charge. Essentially you're not allowed to come within 3" of an enemy model, but if you find yourself there you can just stay there or retreat (?!). The retreat disables any shooting, but remaining stationary has no negative effect apparently. You're not "engaged" or anything, just totally breaking the rules of movement before you enter next combat. Shoot away if you feel the need. You also don't need to charge as you'll get to fight anyway, although are totally free to do so. That's the ambiguousness I mean. It's 4 pages, and it's broke it's own rules just by not adding a dozen more words to clarify that "Yes, we meant to do this"

You can shoot with another unit AT a unit in combat, provided you have clear LOS. Obviously the "totally not engaged but within 3"" unit of your own may block this, as it is not the same unit you're shooting from, but if the shot's clear, go for it.

Any other favourites and tries at explaining?

babyberg31
07-07-2015, 05:41
"I can shoot whilst in combat." - No, you can't, technically. It specifically says in the above sentence you attack with melee weapons and clarifies at the top of page 4 -
"Missile weapons can be used in the shooting phase, and melee weapons can be used in the combat phase. "

The rules fail to mention though that units within 3" that REMAIN within 3" cannot shoot or must make a semi-charge. Essentially you're not allowed to come within 3" of an enemy model, but if you find yourself there you can just stay there or retreat (?!). The retreat disables any shooting, but remaining stationary has no negative effect apparently. You're not "engaged" or anything, just totally breaking the rules of movement before you enter next combat. Shoot away if you feel the need. You also don't need to charge as you'll get to fight anyway, although are totally free to do so. That's the ambiguousness I mean. It's 4 pages, and it's broke it's own rules just by not adding a dozen more words to clarify that "Yes, we meant to do this"

You can shoot with another unit AT a unit in combat, provided you have clear LOS. Obviously the "totally not engaged but within 3"" unit of your own may block this, as it is not the same unit you're shooting from, but if the shot's clear, go for it.

Any other favourites and tries at explaining?

Then why some units have a special rule stating that when they shoot, if no enemy is within 3'', they add a +1 to hit? Within 3'' automaticly mean ''in combat'' no?

Tzar Boris
07-07-2015, 13:07
You're only "in combat" in the combat phase. In the shooting phase you're never considered to be in combat, 3" or no.

Tzar Boris
08-07-2015, 04:28
Found a weird one in the Empire listings.

"Reckless Abandon: When all hope is
lost a Flagellant will fling himself at the
enemy with reckless abandon, heedless of
his own survival. Each time a Flagellant
flees, select an enemy unit within 6" and
roll a dice; on a 4 or more that unit suffers
a mortal wound before the foe can slay the
frenzied Flagellant. If there are no enemy
units within 6", then the Flagellant instead
bashes himself to death with his own flail
and is removed from play as normal."

Fine, understood, when you guy is retreating and there's enemy within 6". But Fleeing is the term they've used here. Not retreating, as is the term used in the rules. Fleeing has never been mentioned so far, except when removing models that fail Battleshock, and that makes less sense. And retreating it's voluntary. The way it reads, is exactly as the rule would appear in an Oldhammer rulebook. Not sure if bonus for them unit being a bit crap overall, but reckon it's just something that's not been updated.

Tzar Boris
08-07-2015, 05:09
Here's another weird one.

Rending and Models that can save against mortal wounds. (the "Ward" save)

RAW again, makes no mention in the core rules about Rending weapons after the initial Damage text. However, when fighting against Daemons with Empire guns with rend, it was unclear whether the "Disgustingly Resilient" skill for Plaguebearers was just saving against Mortal Wounds (as written) and simply extending the saving throw to that damage, whilst still modifying the Save throw with Rend -1. Obviously coming from Ward saves, this was counted this time as an unmodifiable "forcefield" throw that you could ALWAYS take. However this is remarkably assumptive. Thankfully they never rolled 5s, it was all 6s or 4 or less. But this is gonna come up A LOT! (about 700 attacks in the compendium are rending, and at least 22 units have a "ward" save, plus the Life Spell can give it to any unit.

Dwane Diblie
08-07-2015, 05:38
Where in "Discustingly Resilien" is the word save used? It is not, and it is not in any othe ward like ability I have seen. Rend only works on saves. Cover alters saves also, but in the other direction. Again it does not effect these abilities.

innerwolf
08-07-2015, 06:27
Have you discovered something that sounds odd and you're not quite sure what it means in AOS?

Let's make a compilation. My biggest is this -

"Any unit that has charged or has models within 3" of an enemy unit can attack with its melee weapons in the combat phase."

versus

"In order to attack an enemy unit, an enemy model from that unit must be in range of the attacking weapon (i.e. within the maximum distance, in inches, of the Range listed for the weapon making the attack)"

It's obvious to me what it means, now. Melee weapons have, generally, a maximum range of 3" anyway, so they've made sure you maximise your chances by piling in with your spears and stuff.

However, it's unnecessarily ambiguous and on first reading I wondered if I should be using ALL the attacks available from models within 3". But no, it's first "rank" only for swords, two "ranks" for spears etc. I feel there's room to mention the old Empire detachments at this point and how tactically you could maybe now have a thin line of swords, with a second unit of spears charging in behind them to support - much like you would in a LOTR game. But as they're not the same unit, your swordsmen would effectively block the spearmen behind. Boo. Back to flanking for no real bonus. (however this becomes even more odd if you include the model to model measure as opposed to base to base. The spearmen COULD charge from behind the swordsmen if they were modelled with appropriately forward thrusting spears and see from the tips of those - pointing in front of your swordsmen, but models with shouldered spears wouldn't. Plus give me an hour and I'll put together a charging block of Spearmen that can have five guys deep within 3" of an enemy when bases are discounted. And that's just plain silly.)

The same applies to Heroes in units. There's no reason for your hero NOT to be "attached" to unit. So long as he doesn't interrupt the 1" unit coherency rule of the unit he's with. The contentious element is of course in attributing damage from shooting (in combat, so long as you identify who the hero is fighting, no problems should arise) - but as any good Skaven player will tell you, stick him in the back/middle. Your hero is a different unit, and in the centre of another unit he can't be picked out by snipers. Unless he's on a monster/horse amongst Infantry for LOS. So get those Chieftans/Generals back in their units. Third Rank. Middle. Until charge/piling in time comes. I'd be willing to accept a rule that unless you see 33% or more of the "body" of a model, it doesn't count as LOS. This could make hills/buildings useful for snipers too, taking headshots, as they should be.



I don't know if we are in the same page, but I understand it as: When combat phase starts, if there is any unit within 3" of the enemy, they are allowed to fight in addition to the ones which charged.
So, when they become eligible to attack you pile in with them an fight.

I think you could really pull your "first line of tanky models + second line of spearmen". The enemy must charge the first unit and attack them, then the spearmen pile in and attack with their superior reach.

Am I wrong?

Mawduce
08-07-2015, 08:52
Found a weird one in the Empire listings.

"Reckless Abandon: When all hope is
lost a Flagellant will fling himself at the
enemy with reckless abandon, heedless of
his own survival. Each time a Flagellant
flees, select an enemy unit within 6" and
roll a dice; on a 4 or more that unit suffers
a mortal wound before the foe can slay the
frenzied Flagellant. If there are no enemy
units within 6", then the Flagellant instead
bashes himself to death with his own flail
and is removed from play as normal."

Fine, understood, when you guy is retreating and there's enemy within 6". But Fleeing is the term they've used here. Not retreating, as is the term used in the rules. Fleeing has never been mentioned so far, except when removing models that fail Battleshock, and that makes less sense. And retreating it's voluntary. The way it reads, is exactly as the rule would appear in an Oldhammer rulebook. Not sure if bonus for them unit being a bit crap overall, but reckon it's just something that's not been updated.

Battleshock itself makes no sense. If you fight one inch from the edge of the enemy deployment zone and your model is hit with battleshock it just runs off the table... where? does it run further into the enemy to get away or does it run back to my edge? So it runs the whole table with no hope of rally? It's utter BS.

EDIT: and that's another thing. So a Skaven player with daggers can hit something an inch or three inches or whatever in close quarters combat? Take out a knife and point it at a wall. Put about 6 feet between you and the wall. Without throwing the knife hit the wall. That's what GW is saying is possible.

Avian
08-07-2015, 09:02
Found a weird one in the Empire listings.

[...]

Fine, understood, when you guy is retreating and there's enemy within 6". But Fleeing is the term they've used here. Not retreating, as is the term used in the rules. Fleeing has never been mentioned so far, except when removing models that fail Battleshock, and that makes less sense.
To me it's obvious that it refers to removal due to Battleshock. That is the only place where fleeing is mentioned, plus the rule mentions "removed from play as normal". Being removed from play is what normally happens when you fail a Battleshock test, and not when retreating.




Here's another weird one.

Rending and Models that can save against mortal wounds. (the "Ward" save)

RAW again, makes no mention in the core rules about Rending weapons after the initial Damage text. However, when fighting against Daemons with Empire guns with rend, it was unclear whether the "Disgustingly Resilient" skill for Plaguebearers was just saving against Mortal Wounds (as written) and simply extending the saving throw to that damage, whilst still modifying the Save throw with Rend -1. Obviously coming from Ward saves, this was counted this time as an unmodifiable "forcefield" throw that you could ALWAYS take. However this is remarkably assumptive. Thankfully they never rolled 5s, it was all 6s or 4 or less. But this is gonna come up A LOT! (about 700 attacks in the compendium are rending, and at least 22 units have a "ward" save, plus the Life Spell can give it to any unit.

Not quite sure what you are asking here, but Rend applies to Save rolls, and the roll for Disgusting Resilience isn't called a Save, so it would not be modified. It also doesn't say it replaces the Save roll, so you would get both, if that's what you're asking.

Magot
08-07-2015, 13:30
Units and Warscrolls versus weapon choice.
I see above mentions of Tankers in first rank and spearmen 2nd rank.
A. it is a skirmish game with no ranks, so forget all previous WHF tactics with units.
B. all models in a unit do have the same weapons If I read the warrscrolls correct. F.I. A unit of Chaos Warriors consist of 10 models or more. Some UNITS wield either chaos hand weapons or Halberds.
it says UNITS and not models, meaning you can have a unit with hand weapons and a unit with Halberds, but not a single unit with both weapon types in it.

Beware of the fact that measurement (at every moment you wish) is done between the closest point on a model (not the base!) meaning that a sticked out spearpoint counts as the closest part of a model!
Also beware of the weapon range. most of them have a range of 1" but some of them have a range of 2"
Saying that, does it effect attacks in melee after a charge? yes and no the first model must end up within a 1/2" so he will receive attacks from his foo when he can strike back.
But the others can move up to 1.5" for instance if they have a 2" weapon range and the foo just has a weapon range of 1"
Meaning the first attacker takes a risk, but the others can be placed pretty safe. Dealing out hits and receive NON.

Overtninja
08-07-2015, 17:39
I think that for shooting it appears that if you are within 3" of another unit when the combat phase begins, your opponent can elect to pile in and attack them - so remaining within 3" combat range with another unit might be a poor plan for a ranged unit even if you want to use them to shoot.

For some units, there are some special rules that let them move out of turn order or shoot in other phases - I think Tomb King archers can shoot in the move phase and move in the shooting phase, which lets them shoot and then retreat. Most units do lose their shooting if they book it out of combat - but doing so will let you stuff other more effective units in the way of whatever went after them (if they're still around, and that's honestly a better play than losing the hole unit if you can swing it.

innerwolf
08-07-2015, 22:21
Units and Warscrolls versus weapon choice.
I see above mentions of Tankers in first rank and spearmen 2nd rank.
A. it is a skirmish game with no ranks, so forget all previous WHF tactics with units.
B. all models in a unit do have the same weapons If I read the warrscrolls correct. F.I. A unit of Chaos Warriors consist of 10 models or more. Some UNITS wield either chaos hand weapons or Halberds.
it says UNITS and not models, meaning you can have a unit with hand weapons and a unit with Halberds, but not a single unit with both weapon types in it.


I was speaking about two different units, one more resilient and the other with longer ranged CC weapons. And I purposefully used "line" instead of rank because of that.

As the second-line unit ends within 3' of the enemy, they get involved into the combat and get to pile in and attack, without suffering any attacks.

You didn't understand anything from my post.

forseer of fates
09-07-2015, 02:07
talking of which, it looks like the high elf bolt thrower gets 72 shots, as it gets 12 bolts and each rapid fire bolt is 6 shots, yes ofc.

Malkier1984
09-07-2015, 10:20
Beware of the fact that measurement (at every moment you wish) is done between the closest point on a model (not the base!) meaning that a sticked out spearpoint counts as the closest part of a model!
Also beware of the weapon range. most of them have a range of 1" but some of them have a range of 2"
Saying that, does it effect attacks in melee after a charge? yes and no the first model must end up within a 1/2" so he will receive attacks from his foo when he can strike back.
But the others can move up to 1.5" for instance if they have a 2" weapon range and the foo just has a weapon range of 1"
Meaning the first attacker takes a risk, but the others can be placed pretty safe. Dealing out hits and receive NON.

“After all of the attacks made by a unit have been carried out, the player commanding the target unit allocates any wounds that are inflicted to models from the unit as they
see fit (the models do not have to be within range or visible to an attacking unit)” So, no you are not safe if you are outside weapon range, as the target removes the models they wish, likely the ones outside of combat, so they can attack back.


Reference the HE bolt thrower, it doesn't say what those numbers mean (as normally those tables replace a * in the stats) so if somone tried that to get 72 shots, I would point them to their weapon stats which say six and prove what the 12 means in the table.
Admittedly, it is clear to me the attacks line on the weapon should be starred so with full crew you shoot 12 or 2 shots, 1 crew 6 or 1 and no crew none (obviously), but no wasy are you getting 72 shots against me :p

Kerrahn
09-07-2015, 10:26
talking of which, it looks like the high elf bolt thrower gets 72 shots, as it gets 12 bolts and each rapid fire bolt is 6 shots, yes ofc.

If you compare it to the Dark Elf Reaper Bolt Thrower, I think Attacks in the weapon profile should be a star instead of 1 for Ithilmar Bolt and 6 for Repeating Bolts, and rely purely on the War Machine Crew Table for number of shots. Definitely a typo it seems, especially with the DE RBT having the star for Attacks and 12 / 6 / 0 based on number of crew (since they only get repeating shots).

Magot
09-07-2015, 17:26
“After all of the attacks made by a unit have been carried out, the player commanding the target unit allocates any wounds that are inflicted to models from the unit as they
see fit (the models do not have to be within range or visible to an attacking unit)” So, no you are not safe if you are outside weapon range, as the target removes the models they wish, likely the ones outside of combat, so they can attack back.

I am the target, so I remove the one who is in range of my opponents weapons. (after I received wounds which I was not able to save)
Having f.i. a 2" weapon range myself, I can hit my foo, but he can't with his 1" weapons.
next turn his only options are retreat or stand still, he can't charge
All of this deepening of the turn sequence (my turn / his turn) of course.

Avian
09-07-2015, 18:40
I am the target, so I remove the one who is in range of my opponents weapons. (after I received wounds which I was not able to save)
Having f.i. a 2" weapon range myself, I can hit my foo, but he can't with his 1" weapons.
next turn his only options are retreat or stand still, he can't charge
All of this deepening of the turn sequence (my turn / his turn) of course.

You do get your 3" pile-in moves immediately before making attacks.

axamoto
09-07-2015, 19:09
Am I missing something, or is there no where in the rules that restricts a player from fielding a mix of units from any of the factions/races/realms/whatever? I can have a Vampire Elf Chaos Stormking army, right?

Avian
09-07-2015, 19:24
You can take anything you want in any number or combination you want.

Magot
10-07-2015, 07:55
You do get your 3" pile-in moves immediately before making attacks.

My Bad, of course there is the Pile In move :(
missed that in this pile of 4 pages.....

Malkier1984
10-07-2015, 10:16
My Bad, of course there is the Pile In move :(
missed that in this pile of 4 pages.....

:D Don't worry i've done it plenty too, like completely the 'initiative' (or whatever it's actually called) roll off at the start of every turn not just the first, and the alternating combat sequence. Although i'm blaming my local GW manager for that one as he forgot it in my demo game :p

Tato
10-07-2015, 13:27
Seriously, any attemp at clearing ambiguity i AoS is like an attempt to mend a broken dam with duct tape. Clearly the new rules were meant a beer and pretzel game, where any kind of rules are of secondary importance. There is no way one can fix this and make AoS into a comptetive game. Stuff like "Underground Scuttlers: Instead of setting up a Tomb Swarm on the battlefield, you can place them to one side and say that they are set up beneath the ground. In any of your movement phases, you can set the unit up on the battlefield more than 9" from any enemy models. This is the unit's move for that movement phase. The unit can burrow back underground in any of your future movement phases. If it does, remove the unit from the battlefield - it can return in a later turn as described above." This combined with sudden death rules where you can choose to win if your underdog army survives six turns... well just take some Tomb Swarms, tell the opponent they are below the ground, wait for six turns: InstaWin!

It is possible to play this game but the same way you play, say Beer Pong, without the attitude of any competition. Therefore any ambiguities are just part of this rule set.

Malkier1984
10-07-2015, 16:08
Stuff like "Underground Scuttlers: Instead of setting up a Tomb Swarm on the battlefield, you can place them to one side and say that they are set up beneath the ground. In any of your movement phases, you can set the unit up on the battlefield more than 9" from any enemy models. This is the unit's move for that movement phase. The unit can burrow back underground in any of your future movement phases. If it does, remove the unit from the battlefield - it can return in a later turn as described above." This combined with sudden death rules where you can choose to win if your underdog army survives six turns... well just take some Tomb Swarms, tell the opponent they are below the ground, wait for six turns: InstaWin!

Contrary to many of the similar posts ranting about this it doesn't work, for the reason on the Endure objective:"Endure: Have at least one modelwhich started the battle on thebattlefield still in play at the end of thesixth battleround." So, if it's not on the table, it doesn't count, yes you could hide it until the last turn, but the opponent still has a chance to kill it, yes it's cheesy, and if you did it continuously you would probably only get 1 game against each person if that, until they stop playing you for being "That Guy". But there have always been dodgy rules, look way back in Warhammer when stuff could fly high, Wood Elf (and many other armies) flying circus, turn 1 all dissapear, turn 6 charge small easily destroyed units, win game with 300vps to 0vps, it was a valid tactic, but you very raely saw it, because it's not fun to play.

Greyfire
10-07-2015, 21:30
The other flaw in that plan is that you'd better have some other unit on the table. If you have no models on the table then your opponent gets to claim an immediate major victory. Hiding off the table can be helpful but there's a downside to it. Many of these rules feel like old 40K rules.

Tato
11-07-2015, 10:02
I am not making a point to prove I shall play cheese in AoS. I am making a point to show that this game has so many flaws and loopholes it just cannot be structurised by "clearing ambiguity". If one is to accept this game, he has to accept "as is", as a leisure game for kids and play it with that mindset. AOS will never be a "competetion" gameset.