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Chikout
07-07-2015, 03:13
First of all a few obversations.
White dwarf 75 sold out in a day.
The digital version without the free figure is in the top 10 books on iTunes. I don't think any white dwarf weekly has cracked the top 150 before, even the first one. The tie in novel for age of sigmar is in the top ten in the scifi section. I don't think a warhammer fantasy novel has done that before. The YouTube video for the new game is getting about 5000 views an hour. I have no idea how many preorders for the actual game there have been, but GW has already made quite a bit of money on this.

The second thing is regarding market research. A lot of people have blamed Games Workshop's errors on the lack of market research. What people have missed is that you don't need to do market research if you have data. GW knows what you bought, how much you bought, and where and when you bought it. when the wood elf army book was released sales data would tell them how many people bought an army book and a couple of boxes of glade guard with the actual intention of playing the game and how many people just bought the pretty treeman and a few paints.
the recent pdf release is would actually be a very effective way of taking the pulse of the community. It would be easy to see which the most popular armies are. I am curious what the ratio of white dwarf buyers to rules downloaders is.

Regarding frustration. I want to emphasise that I am not trying to defend Games Workshop, just point out a few obvious truths. The most important one is this. If you really want your anger to register, then vote with your wallet. I have seen quite a few gamers react with rage to the new game, then say they going to buy a couple of box sets to use in KOW. If you do this then you are doing exactly what Games Workshop wants. They (meaning the corporate entity) really don't care what you do with you models after you buy, they already have your money.

A controversial opinion. The old world had to go. A lot has been made of key figures leaving Games Workshop, and who knows the real reason for this, but the one thing they all have in common is that they are creative. My wife is an artist and she never wants to draw the same picture twice. Warhammer is 8 editions old at this point. You can only sculpt a new version of a state trooper a number of times before you go mad with boredom, this is why it is always the new guys and not Jes who sculpt the Space marines. The fluff section of the army books has pretty much been copy and paste for years. Again this is probably the reason why there are so many campaign books now as it actually gives writers something to do. IN 40k you can blow up a few planets and no one will really notice, but in fantasy they wrote themselves into a corner by setting the game in a specific year with specific characters. Any campaign with scope would have pretty large implications for the fate of the world as a whole. Also with the clock set at one minute to midnight, there is pretty much nowhere to go except the end.

I have no idea how the new background will develop but it is sure to have got the creative juices of the studio flowing. We have already seen that in the art.

apologies for the long and rambling post, and feel free to disagree.

Drakkar du Chaos
07-07-2015, 03:29
First of all a few obversations. White dwarf 75 sold out in a day.

Sorry but i stopped there. WD75 wasnt sold out, the entire stock got stuck in Eurotunnel :

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-kent-33393593

Then a riot happened.

216649

I dont know why the smoke is so dark.
Is the sigmarine's plastic toxic when melting ?

Nicreap
07-07-2015, 03:35
Sorry but i stopped there. WD75 wasnt sold out, the entire stock got stuck in Eurotunnel :

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-kent-33393593

Then a riot happened.


216649

I dont know why the smoke is so dark.
Is the sigmarine's plastic toxic when melting ?

It definitely sold out in a day, the story I heard time and again this weekend was, if you weren't at GW when it opened saturday, you couldn't get a white dwarf.

LGD
07-07-2015, 03:39
Trainwrecks tend to attract a lot of interest. ;)

In regard to sales data being an adequate substitution for actual market research- hahaha oh my god no, that is not accurate. That kind of data is very useful for putting together a complete picture, but it's necessarily backward looking and doesn't tell you what you aren't doing. You may have sold a bunch of treemen figures, but why did you sell them? An army may be selling poorly, but why is that the case? Do people dislike the models? The fluff? Are the rules unspeakably dire, and from a codex two editions out of date? How do people perceive our movie tie-in game, and will there continue to be interest after the series ends?

And in regard to this getting the studio's creative juices flowing-

A Goreblade Warband consists of the following units:

1 Mighty Lord of Khorne
1 Bloodsecrator
1 Bloodstoker
1 unit of Blood Warriors
1 unit of Bloodreavers
1 Khorgoth

Actual names from the tiny packet of new fluff we've gotten:

Vandus Hammerhand and his Thunderstrike Brotherhood
Great Drake Dracothion
Anactos Skyhelm, Lord of the Skyhost
Skuldrak the Khorgorath and his Bloodstoker, Vekh the Flayer
Threx Skullbrand is the Bloodsecrator of the Goretide and carries Khorne's Portal of Skulls

so I think we've got a pretty good idea where the studio is at creatively and lol

HelloKitty
07-07-2015, 03:39
lol our GW sold out before the door opened up on saturday. Seriously. We just had the demo table ready, the manager opened the door, first guy walked in and asked for one, was told it was sold out.

Drakkar du Chaos
07-07-2015, 03:47
Trainwrecks tend to attract a lot of interest. ;)

In regard to sales data being an adequate substitution for actual market research- hahaha oh my god no, that is not accurate. That kind of data is very useful for putting together a complete picture, but it's necessarily backward looking and doesn't tell you what you aren't doing. You may have sold a bunch of treemen figures, but why did you sell them? An army may be selling poorly, but why is that the case? Do people dislike the models? The fluff? Are the rules unspeakably dire, and from a codex two editions out of date? How do people perceive our movie tie-in game, and will there continue to be interest after the series ends?

And in regard to this getting the studio's creative juices flowing-

A Goreblade Warband consists of the following units:

1 Mighty Lord of Khorne
1 Bloodsecrator
1 Bloodstoker
1 unit of Blood Warriors
1 unit of Bloodreavers
1 Khorgoth

Actual names from the tiny packet of new fluff we've gotten:

Vandus Hammerhand and his Thunderstrike Brotherhood
Great Drake Dracothion
Anactos Skyhelm, Lord of the Skyhost
Skuldrak the Khorgorath and his Bloodstoker, Vekh the Flayer
Threx Skullbrand is the Bloodsecrator of the Goretide and carries Khorne's Portal of Skulls

so I think we've got a pretty good idea where the studio is at creatively and lol

Good reality check :cool:


About the White Dwarf, seriously, the sales are usually so low i am not surprised it could sell "well" when there is a "free" miniature in it.
Also in the world of merchandising the "new product unavailable because of too much demand" is fairly common you know...

Panzeh
07-07-2015, 03:54
Oh, Fantasy definitely needed a change, yes.

Indeed, the game being better able to accomodate smaller games is also something that should have been happening.

Everything else strikes me as some GW writers given zero editorial oversight and given free rein to write whatever came to mind and then it was shoved out as is. These rules had very little effort put into them, even in the terms they lay out for themselves.

Ayin
07-07-2015, 03:56
It's pretty amusing that the problem of 'this game needs to support smaller battles' was met with a solution whereby YOU can bring the very few models you want, and I can place my entire collection to oppose it.

jet_palero
07-07-2015, 04:01
Oh, Fantasy definitely needed a change, yes.

Indeed, the game being better able to accomodate smaller games is also something that should have been happening.

Everything else strikes me as some GW writers given zero editorial oversight and given free rein to write whatever came to mind and then it was shoved out as is. These rules had very little effort put into them, even in the terms they lay out for themselves.

Could have just reverted a few editions then. It was only 8th that brought out the hordes. Go back three editions and you're back in herohammer.

Chikout
07-07-2015, 04:02
Well, i dont know why i am surpised that the first response is just meaningless snark. In response to lgd's more reasonable post. You think of market research i
f you are designing a washing machine, or a rules set possibly. it is very valuable but i dont know a single creative person who doesn't hate it. I will agree with you on the names. They do sound stupid. Names have never been Gw's strong point though. One of warhammers most beloved heroes is named after a cat. The itunes thing is a big deal. Top ten across all books is a lot if copies for the inferior version of a product.

Reinholt
07-07-2015, 04:46
So let me start by saying I think GW did some things that are really good here:

1 - Potentially lowered the barrier to entry dramatically by reducing initial force sizes.
2 - Generated a ton of publicity via free rules (I wish they gave this specific WD away online for free as well).
3 - Rebooted a setting that was very stagnant.

However, I think they also did some very bad:

1 - Completely misunderstood the rules framework that has been driving the current big success stories, growth-wise, in model gaming (X-Wing and Warmahordes, with a charitable mention to Malifaux and Infinity).
2 - Complete lack of customer communication about long-term intentions.
3 - "Joke" rules that have come across as insulting to a lot of long-term customers.

So, the question is this: can a good concept for a lot of what they are doing overcome absolutely **** poor execution out of the gate? Is it the case that there are advanced rules for the game and it's much more stable in that version? Or did they really just release a sort of half-game and will drop a bomb on their potential success despite having done everything else right?

To be charitable, there is some very good in what they have done, but also some very bad. The question is which will win, and exactly what path are they going down here?

TremendousZ
07-07-2015, 08:01
Just think of your experience seeing a large WFB being played and from the time you arrived, setup, played, packed up, and on your way out only a single turn or two has passed. Also think of the patience required to paint some 40+ units to make a single unit ( even worse think of skaven slaves a .5 of a point) and the discipline to rinse and repeat unit you have a 1500-2000 pt army. Then you see the rule book and realize this hobby will require a ton of dedication and work.

AoS focuses more on these barriers to entry. So now anyone who plays 40k now has a new wall of product to explore! So I think those lizards look cool, and some treemen, Oooohh and a green knight. Buying all models knowing I can cherry pick which ones I want to use with free rules, and no forced organization.

The reality check is this change saves you $150 (rule book + codex) when thinking about buying any fantasy model. Also you need no more than a hour or two to play a game so a faster game system means more games and turnover on the 2 gaming tables per GW store and not investing hours to lose interest later. It's a move to sell more models.

AngryAngel
07-07-2015, 08:32
First of all a few obversations.
White dwarf 75 sold out in a day.
The digital version without the free figure is in the top 10 books on iTunes. I don't think any white dwarf weekly has cracked the top 150 before, even the first one. The tie in novel for age of sigmar is in the top ten in the scifi section. I don't think a warhammer fantasy novel has done that before. The YouTube video for the new game is getting about 5000 views an hour. I have no idea how many preorders for the actual game there have been, but GW has already made quite a bit of money on this.

The second thing is regarding market research. A lot of people have blamed Games Workshop's errors on the lack of market research. What people have missed is that you don't need to do market research if you have data. GW knows what you bought, how much you bought, and where and when you bought it. when the wood elf army book was released sales data would tell them how many people bought an army book and a couple of boxes of glade guard with the actual intention of playing the game and how many people just bought the pretty treeman and a few paints.
the recent pdf release is would actually be a very effective way of taking the pulse of the community. It would be easy to see which the most popular armies are. I am curious what the ratio of white dwarf buyers to rules downloaders is.

Regarding frustration. I want to emphasise that I am not trying to defend Games Workshop, just point out a few obvious truths. The most important one is this. If you really want your anger to register, then vote with your wallet. I have seen quite a few gamers react with rage to the new game, then say they going to buy a couple of box sets to use in KOW. If you do this then you are doing exactly what Games Workshop wants. They (meaning the corporate entity) really don't care what you do with you models after you buy, they already have your money.

A controversial opinion. The old world had to go. A lot has been made of key figures leaving Games Workshop, and who knows the real reason for this, but the one thing they all have in common is that they are creative. My wife is an artist and she never wants to draw the same picture twice. Warhammer is 8 editions old at this point. You can only sculpt a new version of a state trooper a number of times before you go mad with boredom, this is why it is always the new guys and not Jes who sculpt the Space marines. The fluff section of the army books has pretty much been copy and paste for years. Again this is probably the reason why there are so many campaign books now as it actually gives writers something to do. IN 40k you can blow up a few planets and no one will really notice, but in fantasy they wrote themselves into a corner by setting the game in a specific year with specific characters. Any campaign with scope would have pretty large implications for the fate of the world as a whole. Also with the clock set at one minute to midnight, there is pretty much nowhere to go except the end.

I have no idea how the new background will develop but it is sure to have got the creative juices of the studio flowing. We have already seen that in the art.

apologies for the long and rambling post, and feel free to disagree.

I get that you think its good, it isn't. The reasons are long and all already out there, though GW thanks you for doing your part, service guarantees citizenship !! That said, stop to think the WD sold out as much for the people who wanted it to just see what crap the GW was cooking ? I remember another time not super long ago, though it may be for some, the WD had inside it an ork nob, and a marine terminator, free in the issue because of assault on black reach, those issues sold pretty hot around here as well. I wouldn't say, because something new came out, people wanted info, then issue sold out, means they are working up some gold.

Though I do appreciate all the battles of " Its crap, It's awesome ", we can go through now till whenever because of all this. As people feel the ever present need to combat each others opinions with posts such as classics " What did AoS did right ? What did AoS do wrong ? Is GW trying to fail ? GW has put our the next step in gaming evolution "

As for market research, GW don't exactly know as much as your giving them credit for, not working through distributors and with less of their stores around, you can't always be sure of who is buying what, where or when.

So, this love, hate fest must continue, it is a war without end, and war, war never changes.

MiyamatoMusashi
07-07-2015, 08:35
White Dwarf sold out because people want to know what's going on.

That's because Fantasy still has (or had) the potential to be immensely popular.

People who bought the White Dwarf have now found out what Age of Sigmar is, and how much of a botch job they've made of it. And GW have made that botch job because they'd arbitrarily decided that Fantasy as it was could not be popular.

WD selling out means nothing - nothing - for how good AoS is, nor how successful or popular it is going to be.

I mean, WD sold out because people want to know what's going on. Just like we're here talking about it because we want to know what's going on. But 2/3rds of the people here say they're not going to play it. But they're talking about it so it must be good! ...right...?

Ayin
07-07-2015, 08:37
I'm loving the 'you don't need market research if you have sales numbers' argument.

Someone should really go and explain this to the advertising, marketing and sales fields.

Mudkip
07-07-2015, 08:37
I think it's quite unreasonable at this point to say that AoS is about "lowering the barrier to entry". Warhammer was about ranked mass fantasy battles while AoS is a smaller skirmish game with no real potential to function the way that Warhammer did. It's an entirely different game. 40k Kill Team is lowering the entry barrier, running a 500pts army campaign is lowering the entry point, replacing the whole game with something functionally so different is something else entirely. New players who get into AoS won't be "entering" Warhammer as we knew it over the years.

Shifte
07-07-2015, 08:50
The lack of marketing and market research is criminal. Since End Times I have been looking forward to 9th. Now I will not buy it in silent process. Me not buying it means it is likely three of my friends won't buy it, too, as I was the one trying to generate interest.

People often try to defend GW using a business argument. Here is the thing, though; we are consumers. Our first priority should be to defend ourselves. If GW could get away with it they'd just have direct access to our bank accounts and wouldn't produce anything. That's how capitalism works.

The other side of capitalism is that companies can't just do that (in theory) because the consumer will just buy something (or somewhere) else. GW has gotten an easy ride so far by the loyalty of its customers. Well, for me at least, no more. Not until they fix this. If the game succeeds anyway, fine. They win and I still have my £££. ;)

Herzlos
07-07-2015, 09:00
It definitely sold out in a day, the story I heard time and again this weekend was, if you weren't at GW when it opened saturday, you couldn't get a white dwarf.

It's not difficult to sell out a cheap magazine with a free mini when you only stock 4 copies. It doesn't mean that AoS is going to be a success, just that enough people wanted to see what was going on, or nab the mini for £2.50.

Same with the bestseller charts - they are particularly easy to game with the way GW runs things. It's using algorithms that include sales over time, so if you have a huge burst of sales in a short time (2/3 days) after releasing, you may rank higher than something with orders of magnitude more sales over a few months.

As GW announces these things a week in advance, there is usually a rush of committed fans who'll buy on launch weekend, driving the stats right up, but within a week the sales will have pretty much levelled off and they'll disappear from the charts again.


There's definitely a huge amount of interest in what's happening to Warhammer, but I'm not sure how that's translating into sales. Any staffers will to give a rough idea of interest in the game for the game itself and not just as Blood Angels/CSM conversion pieces?

Greyshadow
07-07-2015, 10:13
A controversial opinion. The old world had to go... The fluff section of the army books has pretty much been copy and paste for years... IN 40k you can blow up a few planets and no one will really notice, but in fantasy they wrote themselves into a corner by setting the game in a specific year with specific characters... Also with the clock set at one minute to midnight, there is pretty much nowhere to go except the end.

I have no idea how the new background will develop but it is sure to have got the creative juices of the studio flowing.

I 100% agree with you. It had to happen even if I didn't want it to. The new setting with multiple planets or realms is just what is needed to give it all a kick and turn it up to 12. I do think it is unfortunate that my lovingly painted collection of Old World armies are no longer the new bees knees armies they once were but that is what time has done and not GW. They would have been totally wrong not to embrace change.

NatBrannigan
07-07-2015, 10:20
I suspect it looks popular because most people desperatly wanted this to work. I'm one of them. I started thinking this was terrible when the rumours were first released. Then decided that Fantasy need a change to get new players in. Then thought GW might have this nailed on with a small model count, simplified game to get people interested. They could then scale up to a bigger game in the future. Bingo. I was even looking foward t ostarting Skaven because the size of an 8th edition army was too daunting!

So I grabbed the white dwarf, downloaded the rules and.... Oh dear. They looked awful, I played a few games over the weekend that were awful and that was the end of my interest in AoS. I suspect this is the case for many others as well?

Whirlwind
07-07-2015, 10:26
It sold out because people simply bought more than one copy for the model. You could buy 10 copies and get two units for £25 which appears to be cheaper than one unit bought separately. There are also a load being sold on ebay (some for daft prices like £30).

Kahadras
07-07-2015, 10:37
It would be far more interesting to find out how many boxes of AoS has shifted. My current gaming group has bought exactly zero. Nobody has even suggested playing a game yet. Basicaly we took a look at the rules, had a bit of a laugh and went off to play a game of Starwars Armarda. That, for me, sums up GW's problems at the moment.

Shandor
07-07-2015, 10:39
You guys Remember that the End Times Books Sold out 5 minutes after Midnight on release Day? So that means that The End Times are the best thing ever happend to the WHF Fans?

Whirlwind
07-07-2015, 10:43
It would be far more interesting to find out how many boxes of AoS has shifted. My current gaming group has bought exactly zero. Nobody has even suggested playing a game yet. Basicaly we took a look at the rules, had a bit of a laugh and went off the play a game of Starwars Armarda. That, for me, sums up GW's problems at the moment.

Yes I would agree, figures on who has actually bought the game would be useful. I would expect that most sales should happen in the first few weeks and then start tailing off as other 'models' get released. I suppose only GW will really know just how many pre-orders there have been; however if the AoS app as speculated has been announced ahead of schedule to mollify some of the negative feedback then I would interpret it that this means sales are below expectations.

Kelesis
07-07-2015, 10:55
I'm expecting great sales the first month, then a big crash. Without limits, points or whatever similar, you don't have any incentive to buy more miniatures. Even with that, the game is simplistic, boring and so stupid. Let's see the scenarios, but i doubt that this "throw dice and drink beer minis game" will work.

GrandmasterWang
07-07-2015, 11:08
I got 3 copies of the White Dwarf.

White Dwarf sold out because of the 'free' miniature pure and simple. Thats why I got my copy.

Based on GW prices a miniature for the price of White Dwarf Weekly is exceptional value.

The White Dwarf selling out says nothing at all about the future success or failure about AOS.

As for my triple purchase, a copy for me, a copy for my mate and the 3rd is on Ebay ensuring I paid nothing for the 'free' miniatures. I knew WDW would sell out.

'Free' miniatures on White Dwarf is pure win and what got me into thw hobby. It has been years since GW did this hence the sellout.

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Tichey
07-07-2015, 11:10
Pretty obvious games workshop wasn't happy with the current state of fantasy both in a creative sense and a financial one. Made them willing to take the risk on a new game, which I would rather they did since the alternative probably would of been just dumping fantasy all together.

Shandor
07-07-2015, 11:10
I'm expecting great sales the first month, then a big crash. Without limits, points or whatever similar, you don't have any incentive to buy more miniatures. Even with that, the game is simplistic, boring and so stupid. Let's see the scenarios, but i doubt that this "throw dice and drink beer minis game" will work.

AoS is great for Testing Games. If you go to a GW Store and have a GW-Guy making a test game with you, you have fun with it since you dont know the Game and the Rules.
You might even have fun with Game 2-4 Because its all new and shiny. But as soon you make some more games you realize there is nothing more to come. You already seen it all. Its like getting a New shiny but empty Box at x-mas. You see the Big box under the Tree.. you are happy to open it and then you realize its nothing inside.
By the time you realize there is nothing more, GW Already sold you the Starter Box, Paints, brushes, and maybe a Monster... One month later you lost interest.

AoS might get a good Profit the first month.. but on a long term.. ? We will see.

Captain Idaho
07-07-2015, 11:34
I'm expecting great sales the first month, then a big crash. Without limits, points or whatever similar, you don't have any incentive to buy more miniatures. Even with that, the game is simplistic, boring and so stupid. Let's see the scenarios, but i doubt that this "throw dice and drink beer minis game" will work.

Totally agree.

The game has NO longevity. After the negative reaction everyone had to this game, we got an immediate rumour leak that there's a competitive games expansion. If GW were confident they made the right decision, why this knee jerk reaction? Sales were probably lower than expected and this is the honeymoon period!

Kisanis
07-07-2015, 13:02
I think we are thinking of AOS in the wrong paradigm. The more I look it over, how its structured conceptually and what they did, the more I see Magic the gathering.

The restructured the game to be more like a ccg. Simple free rules, use whatever is in your collection to fight whatever you think your opponent has in his, etc...

Whats more... is I think it can work.
It needs summoning sickness and a banned/restricted lists, as well as game formats like magic, but I think it can oddly work.

Im trying to be objective about it, and I think if its a "I have my collection and no proxies" kind of game, it may be less broken than I thought. I just keep placing what I need to defeat you as best I can.



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Greyshadow
07-07-2015, 13:04
So I grabbed the white dwarf, downloaded the rules and.... Oh dear. They looked awful, I played a few games over the weekend that were awful and that was the end of my interest in AoS. I suspect this is the case for many others as well?

I felt like that too when I first saw the rules. Still haven't read them in their entiriety or played a game. Some favourable comments from some who have though who think we have a good game in there. I hope they are right.

Nightfall Shimmer
07-07-2015, 13:46
I don't think sales of the AoS boxed set even relates to how successful or unsuccessful game it's going to be.

The rules are FREE. No-one has to buy anything, since anyone can use their old models. Anyone buying the boxed set would be buying it for the models inside it.

That could be:
To play Age of Sigmar.
To add to a 40K Khorne Deamonkin/Chaos Space Marine army.
To add to a 40K Blood Angels army.
To make a 30/40K Adeptus Custodes army.
To add to a 'Oldhammer' Warriors of Chaos army.
To play in a none GW Tabletop wargame.
To paint because they look cool.

And thats just a few ideas bandied about the forums that I can vaguely recall people mentioning.

Wesser
07-07-2015, 14:03
Pretty obvious games workshop wasn't happy with the current state of fantasy both in a creative sense and a financial one. Made them willing to take the risk on a new game, which I would rather they did since the alternative probably would of been just dumping fantasy all together.

See, the problem here is all the assumptions..

- Was Fantasy selling badly?

- Did they lose money on it?

- Did GW just hate Fantasy/Square Bases/existing fluff or were they resentful at the customers for not liking Warmaster all that much?


We know none of this because GW doesn't care about what the market wants. GW believes they are a toy company strategically and hence has adopted a tactic of telling it's customers what they should think is cool and trying to build a hype around it. Unfortunately it doesn't really work that way in the hobbyist segment, and hence GW have left a LOT of money on the table because "new zombies are what the customers want, it's not what WE want".

We may be adults playing with toy soldiers, but that still doesn't mean we respond the same way as kids buying Pokémon or rollershoes.... GW's dreamworld involves the players standing in awe of GW brilliant models, and then figuring out for themselves what to do with them.

Once the initial curiosity has piqued I think the fantasy segment (including LOTR) will just die. GW will then focus on 40k for a while until it becomes clear that GW can't exist on that platform alone. 5 years from now the company will be broken up and sold in bits (no pun intended)... Good thing I know a guy with basement

Tzar Boris
07-07-2015, 14:05
Honestly wouldn't be surprised if WD 75 was undermade on purpose for "marketing". (Look at normal sales, make 1000 less so you can say it "sold out"). You usually see 3 or 4 copies of the latest sitting the week after on the shelves of WHSmith, Tesco or anywhere else you buy magazines, but you couldn't find it on launch day, almost like it never arrived, anywhere round here.
And there's not a lot of Wargaming love to be had in this town, so I seriously doubt it genuinely sold out.

Chilled out Charlie
07-07-2015, 14:24
It definitely sold out in a day, the story I heard time and again this weekend was, if you weren't at GW when it opened saturday, you couldn't get a white dwarf.

My manager has been telling me for a few weeks now that white dwarf is facing a "worldwide shortage" (I know right?) so much so he only receives 10 a week in to the store. It was the same for Saturday. Selling out of 10 copies is not hard, he's done it for several weeks now. I imagine the presses are being applied to the printing of se campaign books (or rulebooks) for AOS...


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Gorbad Ironclaw
07-07-2015, 14:26
See, the problem here is all the assumptions..

- Was Fantasy selling badly?


Yes, and have been for years and years. At least relatively speaking. And given the amount of resources it takes to support the game when it then doesn't deliver anything like the returns that 40k does eventually it's going to come up for either cutting or revision.

Croaker2
07-07-2015, 14:40
My FLGS got 0 copies. He usually gets 4 or 5 (and is only able to sell 1 copy).

The other FLGS I play at also got 0 copies - but that's because they stopped carrying WD because no one was buying it.

The other game store I called did sell out of WD, but I don't know how many they had.

TheFang
07-07-2015, 15:07
You usually see 3 or 4 copies of the latest sitting the week after on the shelves of WHSmith, Tesco or anywhere else you buy magazines, but you couldn't find it on launch day, almost like it never arrived, anywhere round here.

Hasn't been on newstands since it resized. Tesco, WH Smiths and your local newsagent will never have had it on the shelves for over a year.

My local games stores get at most ten WD normally, some get four. Since £24 for ten White Dwarfs will almost certainly be cheaper than a unit of ten from GW people bought ten copies for the free mini.

Tzar Boris
07-07-2015, 15:23
They all stock Visions (£7.50 an issue? Jeez that better be hobby gold!). Is it the weekly status of it you reckon? Monthly they could justify buying stock, but who's buying WD every week (without subscription)? I know most people maybe bought two, three issues of the monthly WD a year.

Ol'shas'ka
07-07-2015, 15:24
I'm honestly not surprised the new White Dwarf sold out at my local GW. They were holding a tournament to crown the final 8th edition Warhammer champion and the place was absolutely packed with Fantasy players. They probably didn't even have enough copies of White Dwarf for half the guys who turned up, much less people like myself who were just passing through.

Chikout
07-07-2015, 15:25
I have been thinking about all of this lately, and I came to the conclusion that nostalgia is a very powerful thing. A lot of people who are saddened or frustrated or plain angry about what has happened to Warhammer feel so because of nostalgia for the old games they used to play. The problem is that nothing can compete with that. Shenmue 2 and ff7 do not hold up. I recently went back and read some of the early gotrek novels, which I first read when they where new. They do not hold up either, the characterisation is paper thin, the story is extremely predicatable and there is no character development, and yet I remember loving them the first time. I will miss warhammer, but only a little and I don't think I will go back to it as nothing will be as good as my memories.

Tzar Boris
07-07-2015, 15:28
On the plus side, with the rules being free, run down to your local Printshop and get everything (warscrolls included) all printed front and back shrunk to A5 (4 pages a sheet) for about the same price as WD. You could even buy a binder. XD

TheFang
07-07-2015, 15:41
On the plus side, with the rules being free, run down to your local Printshop and get everything (warscrolls included) all printed front and back shrunk to A5 (4 pages a sheet) for about the same price as WD. You could even buy a binder. XD
Since they don't give you permission to print explicitly on the rules you are conceivably breaking their copyright (http://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Copyright-and-Legal-Information). Normally the permission to copy appears on the page.


Any unauthorised copying of the images or other copyrighted material on this website will constitute an infringement of copyright.

Lester
07-07-2015, 15:47
Reality check for joke rules haters: You're playing a game with toy plastic (or metal) soldiers. Get over yourselves. It is a game, not war.

D6damage
07-07-2015, 15:49
The restructured the game to be more like a ccg. Simple free rules, use whatever is in your collection to fight whatever you think your opponent has in his, etc...

My thoughts exactly. This is a collectable miniatures game first and foremost.

See it through the eyes of 12 year old Timmy and his Dad walking into a store. They don't know anything about it, but it all looks cool and they'll give it a go, and hopefully get hooked on buying minis.

In the old warhammer, the sequence of events would go like this:

Timmy says "WOW Dad! That giant spider looks COOOLLLL!!!!"
Dad says "Here's £30 - you can buy one thing in here"
GW says "Sorry, it doesn't work that way. You need the rulebook, an army book and about £150 worth of minis. Then you have to plough through 100 pages of rules, and spend ages doing a REALLY TEDIOUS exercise of adding up points, before you can even BEGIN to play"
Incredibly, Timmy and Dad do just that (though think of all the hundreds of Timmys and their Dads who just exit the store right there and then, never to return).
Next time they go in the store Timmy wants to buy more stuff.
Dad says "Look at this, Timmy, this chaos spawn looks awesome"
Timmy: "Sorry dad, I can only spend money on Orcs from now on"
At christmas, Aunt Floss gives Timmy some Warhammer toys, only its not orcs, so he can't use them.
Next time in the store, Timmy says he wants five boxes of orc warriors.
Dad says "but I thought you already had those"
Timmy says "yes, but the game says I have to have them. I don't actually like the models that much, and the thought of painting dozens of rank and file models makes me want to pull my eyes out."
A couple of months later Timmy doesn't play any more.
Only the incredibly pedantic and competitive Timmys carry on playing and get much out of the game, forming tournaments and sucking the playfulness out of the whole experience. And then they pour out all their rage on Warseer.

With AoS, GW would like the scenario to be this:
Timmy says "WOW Dad! That giant spider looks COOOLLLL!!!!"
Dad says "Here's £30 - you can buy one thing in here"
GW says "Great choice. Have fun and see you next week!"
Next week, Timmy says "WOW Dad! Those chaos warriors look cool!"
He paints them, never has to buy or paint any more if he doesn't want to, and carries on buying anything he likes the look of (and who of us wouldn't want to own one of everything?).
And by the way, Timmy isn't like the Timmy of the 80s and 90s, who had limited gaming options and bought Warhammer because it was the only thing around. This Timmy is very familiar with a whole range of new types of games out there for fellow nerds - ccgs, beer&pretzel board games, MMorpgs. He expects a bit of light entertaining distraction on his weekly games night, with little commitment, no heaviness, some actual girls who enjoy playing too, which doesn't last four freaking hours and has no hostile powerplay.

AoS is a Collectible Miniatures Game, just like a ccg. You turn up with your "deck" and play.

Sure there are loads of people who prefer the old ways, but GW sees AoS as its way out of the trap that it's made for itself, which is this: the only people who like playing Warhammer are the very people who ruin Warhammer.

Warhammer is dead thanks to all the guys who are currently freaking out about points systems and big moustaches. AoS is something totally different, and will hopefully build a growing community of Timmys and their Dads. Let the old guard play Oldhammer and Mantic stuff.
Sure, it's a gamble, but I hope the gamble pays off, and that GW lives on for many years to come.

MiyamatoMusashi
07-07-2015, 16:00
Warhammer is dead thanks to all the guys who are currently freaking out about points systems and big moustaches.

1. [citation needed]... as someone pointed out in the pricing thread, in throwing away one of their two largest properties, GW have now tried literally everything to rescue their flagging sales and shrinking customer base except... y'know... the obvious.

2. Yes, those guys who gave GW thousands and thousands of pounds over the years are totally the reason GW are now struggling.

Tzar Boris
07-07-2015, 16:01
Since they don't give you permission to print explicitly on the rules you are conceivably breaking their copyright (http://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Copyright-and-Legal-Information). Normally the permission to copy appears on the page.

They explicitly give you permission for it on the web page.

"Contained within this free download is the core ruleset needed in order to begin your own adventures within the Age Of Sigmar. This four-page PDF is yours to keep, print out and play with, and when combined with a Warscrolls Compendium or two - available below, also totally free - is everything you need to know. Grab it, read it, and begin playing right away!"

Okay, letter of the law, it doesn't explicitly say you can't do the same with the compendiums (in fact it strikes the similarity as "also totally free"), but since it appears on the same page with no additional caveat to say this does not apply to those as well, no laws broken.

Shifte
07-07-2015, 16:02
This might be a "collectable miniatures game" now, but I am not a collectable miniatures consumer and I will not buy the Age of Sigmar product because it doesn't meet my expectations. They would have made more money by turning Warhammer into an affordable but competitive game. They concepts aren't mutually exclusive, despite the mad efforts of those defending the changes to imply as much, and I think they've made a dreadful mistake.

HelloKitty
07-07-2015, 16:04
They've moved full blown away from the serious competitive crowd and embraced the casual for fun crowd.

TheFang
07-07-2015, 16:05
It is a game, a very poor parody of one.
They explicitly give you permission for it on the web page.
Not by their own legal page they didn't which prohibits copying anything. :p


TThey would have made more money by turning Warhammer into an affordable but competitive game.

They'd have made more money and kept more goodwill by leaving Warhammer available and releasing Age of Sigmar as an equivalent to Mordheim. An old style specialist game. Manage change over time rather than the disconnect they've managed here.

swordofglass
07-07-2015, 16:10
Warhammer is dead thanks to all the guys who are currently freaking out about points systems and big moustaches

Hold on, I thought it was thanks to GW, since they're the ones who killed Fantasy? Let me check....

Yep, definitely GW's fault.

Tzar Boris
07-07-2015, 16:10
It struck us as odd a good while ago that a company called "Games Workshop" have done its level best over the past ten years to limit the amount of games they make. From killing off Specialist, chasing the Hobbit over other possibly cheaper and less restrictive IPs (a lot of us thought an Indiana Jones, The Mummy or something "High Adventure" game woulda been a good call)

"Limited" runs of games like Space Hulk that did nothing but help eBay scalpers.

"The best miniatures in the world", maybe they should just be called "Collectors Workshop".

They could make whatever minis they wanted. Let someone else worry about the rules, and no-ones IP would be getting stood on.

stroller
07-07-2015, 16:11
My 2p worth on the WD sell out ... my local GW (one man store) sold 40 copies on the day: I got the last 4 (which I'd reserved beforehand) and on collecting them was told that at least 10 people had wanted to buy but couldn't. Another customer offered me 50% above cover price there and then to try to get a copy. Since the other 3 were for other gamers I know, I declined. However, I can't see the attraction of "buy 10 WDs to build a squad" unless the sigmarines really are old school necrons, in which case monopose would be characterful.

Shifte
07-07-2015, 16:13
They've moved full blown away from the serious competitive crowd and embraced the casual for fun crowd.

That crowd is smaller than you might think. GW constantly brags that its market is niche, but if they do this they will just be one of many 'casual' products competing with the rest of the board games market. They'll lose a big chunk of their niche market/ Realistically they've achieved two things:

1) They've alienated a large number of loyal consumers.

2) They've chosen to compete with every other casual game out there.

If you took out the lack of army construction Age of Sigmar would NOT be getting anywhere near as much blowback as it is currently getting from fans. They could've had the best of both worlds, but instead now seem poised to fail.

Tzar Boris
07-07-2015, 16:14
Not by their own legal page they didn't which prohibits copying anything. :p

"Any unauthorised copying of the images or other copyrighted material on this website will constitute an infringement of copyright.

The materials on that page have been authorised. Knock yourself out.

Mr_Foulscumm
07-07-2015, 16:15
My thoughts exactly. This is a collectable miniatures game first and foremost.


Personally I thought they made Collectible Miniatures first and foremost and a Miniatures Game as an after thought. Which is in line with what they actually think themselves as well.



Warhammer is dead thanks to all the guys who are currently freaking out about points systems and big moustaches. AoS is something totally different, and will hopefully build a growing community of Timmys and their Dads. Let the old guard play Oldhammer and Mantic stuff.
Sure, it's a gamble, but I hope the gamble pays off, and that GW lives on for many years to come.

Wait, say what? How is it the people complaining about AoS fault that GW removed WFB? This logic is so backwards. :rolleyes:

HelloKitty
07-07-2015, 16:16
I can't comment on the size of the casual for fun crowd compared to the serious competitive crowd. I know in my area that the split between those two is about even.

Granted the casual for-fun crowd can also play a super serious tournament game just as well.

The lack of points is a big killer for both sides though.

Lester
07-07-2015, 16:19
a very poor parody of one.

That's your opinion. It's is a game by definition.

MiyamatoMusashi
07-07-2015, 16:26
I can't comment on the size of the casual for fun crowd compared to the serious competitive crowd. I know in my area that the split between those two is about even.

I don't think any of us really can, outside of our local areas.

What's self-evident though, is that both crowds are a strict subset of the wargaming community in total, and any game that exclusively focusses on only one of those crowds is intentionally limiting its sales. Since GW are supposedly trying to increase sales, rejecting non-casual gamers is a very strange decision. It would surely have made more sense to make a game that can be played by, and appeals to, both.

Shandor
07-07-2015, 16:26
Timmy & Dad


Dad gives Timmy a Highelf Dragon to his next birthday and his reaction is "Aw Man get away with that Crap Dad! All Guys in School tolt me AoS is just a unplayable Joke and not worth a Penny.. bring it back and sell my Spider and Chaos Spawn on Ebay if you want" :)

I know what you want to say. But GW didnt think that to the end. 40k sells good because its a Good Game behind the Models.. behind AoS is just thin Air.

NatBrannigan
07-07-2015, 16:28
They've moved full blown away from the serious competitive crowd and embraced the casual for fun crowd.

In my experiance most Fantasy (and 40k for that matter) players don't fall into one or the other of these groups but lie somewhere in the middle. They want a fun game between two approximatley equal forces. I play rugby most weekends for my local club. I don't take it too seriously but still enjoy winning a close run game between two roughly equal teams. It's still casual, it's still very fun but I think a big part of that comes because both players / teams have a good chance of winning the game.

It's getting a bit galling that everyone who thinks AoS will be fun are accusing the players who opinions differ of being "Win at all costs competative players", "tournament players" or "Neckbeards". I don't even know what a Neckbeard is!

And while I quoted Hellokitty i'm not suggesting they think like this at all! Just a handy quote to start my post :)

TheFang
07-07-2015, 16:28
"Any unauthorised copying of the images or other copyrighted material on this website will constitute an infringement of copyright.

The materials on that page have been authorised. Knock yourself out.
Cheerfully. I'm past anger and now just admiring the train wreck.

That's your opinion. It's is a game by definition.

Check the Rules development forum (http://www.warseer.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?17-GW-Rules-Development-Forum) as people try to sort the rules out before the boxed set is even released.

On the front page one active Fantasy thread, two 40k threads, and 17 Age of Sigmar threads. That's a rule set that's satisfying the people who like it so much they're all trying to repair it inside four days of it's appearance.

HelloKitty
07-07-2015, 16:32
It's getting a bit galling that everyone who thinks AoS will be fun are accusing the players who opinions differ of being "Win at all costs competative players", "tournament players" or "Neckbeards". I don't even know what a Neckbeard is!

Yeah I definitely don't think that or am accusing people of that (just clarifying)

Lester
07-07-2015, 16:32
Cheerfully. I'm past anger and now just admiring the train wreck.


Check the Rules development forum (http://www.warseer.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?17-GW-Rules-Development-Forum) as people try to sort the rules out before the boxed set is even released.

On the front page one active Fantasy thread, two 40k threads, and 17 Age of Sigmar threads. That's a rule set that's satisfying the people who like it so much they're all trying to repair it inside four days of it's appearance.

That's because it is not a competitive game. It is a narrative game. It's like trying to play chess using RPG rules.

Shifte
07-07-2015, 16:32
I don't think any of us really can, outside of our local areas.

What's self-evident though, is that both crowds are a strict subset of the wargaming community in total, and any game that exclusively focusses on only one of those crowds is intentionally limiting its sales. Since GW are supposedly trying to increase sales, rejecting non-casual gamers is a very strange decision. It would surely have made more sense to make a game that can be played by, and appeals to, both.

You are bang on the money. Most players want good models, good lore and a good game. Very few are only interested in one thing.

I don't attend tournaments and I am not WAAC. I build fluffy armies, in fact. Despite that, I will not play this game. I -enjoy- the imperfect competitiveness of Warhammer. I enjoy playing to win with an arbitrary set of rules which a professional has attempted to balance.

In my group of friends I am the (possibly second) least cynical about GW. I keep up to date with the gossip, I try to generate interest in new releases and whenever there is a spate of gaming/model buying I am usually the one who has encouraged it. As one of my pals said to me; "You've been excited about End Times and Age of Sigmar for months. If you've been put off by this then they've really messed up."

I think he's right.

NatBrannigan
07-07-2015, 16:37
Yeah I definitely don't think that or am accusing people of that (just clarifying)

Oh I know! I did add a little comment at the end of that post to say I didn't think it was actually you're opinion :) Although if anyone could tell me what a "Neck beard" is that would be... interesting!

HelloKitty
07-07-2015, 16:39
A neckbeard is a derogatory term for a stereotypical gamer. It refers to a man that has a beard on his neck and is meant as an insult referring to poor personal hygiene.

Panzeh
07-07-2015, 16:42
That's because it is not a competitive game. It is a narrative game. It's like trying to play chess using RPG rules.

So, what about these four pages really make a narrative go? This strikes me as more "I played really badly but I WASN'T REALLY TRYING GUYS"

There are very narrative based RPGs, but they take a very very different tack to this game. These rules do not create narratively interesting outcomes- that's left to the dice.

As I said before, the point of game design is to set a mood through the gameplay itself- when you play it well, it should feel like you're doing what makes sense in the world. That way, you don't have to be totally bought in to the entire plotline before you can even enjoy the game- the game ends up being good, and the story is organic.

If your game is good, people will want to explore the other stuff- it's not necessarily the other way around.

TheFang
07-07-2015, 16:42
That's because it is not a competitive game. It is a narrative game. It's like trying to play chess using RPG rules.Where does it say it's not competitive? Every announcement talks of "mighty armies clashing"-the very definition of competition, not "mighty armies building a new irrigation system". There's no narrative. Even Bunnies and Burrows had tighter combat rules.

People are trying to patch the basic rules. 21 types of shields. No rules for hills. Shoot perfectly into combat.

It's beyond terrible.

Mr_Foulscumm
07-07-2015, 16:42
That's because it is not a competitive game. It is a narrative game. It's like trying to play chess using RPG rules.

If this is the case, then my guess would be that people don't play enough none GW games. There are narrative games out there with much stronger rules than these ones. Or does your definition of a narrative game mean that the rules are not really important? In which case, why even bother with the rules at all?

Although, maybe you are right... Narrative gaming means having the story drive what happens on the table, and since everything in Warhammer is so angry, having every game end up in a gigantic group hug might be narrative after all.

But I'd still suggest that the AoS-is-awesome crowd take a look around at the wider market of rules out there just to get some perspective. Take a look at what has been made by people that love making rules, before blindly buying in to this game.

NatBrannigan
07-07-2015, 16:45
Oh... Thanks Kitty. Well how odd.

Currently i'm hoping AoS does well and is then expanded upon and improved. If it evolves into a PLAYABLE small model count fantasy skirmish game I'll probably go back and start the Skaven warband I was hoping to collect :(

At the moment unfortunaly i just don't see any sales or longevity past the already mentioned first week spike. There's no substance. Where's the beef GW?

Mr_Foulscumm
07-07-2015, 16:50
There's no substance. Where's the beef GW?

That's a trade secret. They can't tell you, or anyone else until a couple of days after the beef has been released. And then only if you go to the docks and ask for a guy named Richard. He'll tell you all about the beef, unless he is busy, in which case, no beef.

Deadhorse
07-07-2015, 16:51
If anecdotes are to be believed, GW believes neckbeards are undesirable because:
- they buy armies on e-bay or use their old models from the 80s
- they make the hobby look bad by playing it, with their beards, fat bums, zits and so on
- they grumble about everything GW does
- they take up space in stores
- they play competitively, are often WAAC/rules lawyers
- they inhabit internet forums where they express their hate for GW

With this move, GW hopes to get rid of neckbeards and instead sell to happy blue-eyed children who'll line up at the stores once the old smelly nerds are gone.

Please note, everything stated above describes anecdotes I've heard about GW's managers' opinions and not my personal point of view.

HelloKitty
07-07-2015, 16:55
Here is the difference between competitive and narrative in regards to mighty armies clashing:

Competitive: you have points and your forces are fairly equal based on the points (in theory). The game is balanced around equal forces pretty much all the time, and the scenarios should also be balanced around that concept.

Narrative: you have forces dictated by the scenario. Those forces could be balanced, or one side may have an advantage over the other (often seen in campaign games and the source of arguments for a couple of decades on using unbalanced narrative scenarios vs always using only competitive scenarios)

Then you can have hybrids of the two. Narrative competitive would be forces that are roughly the same with scenarios having a minor impact on the game, and then there is Competitive Narrative which is basically like a narrative tournament where its competitive in that its always balanced scenarios and forces, but they are telling a story. Any bonuses would be quite minimal so as not to upset the balance.

Up until the mid 90s, pretty much every wargame I played was Narrative until points started to appear and a more competitive mindset started to become normal until 2000 or so where that was pretty much exclusively how you played wargames.

If I had been in charge of Age of Sigmar, I would never have gone full narrative. Not because I dislike narrative, in fact I prefer it, but because its such a culture shock that I would feel that its pretty much guaranteed to fail because people who play today are not the people who played in 1990 that enjoyed this type of thing.

Agrimax
07-07-2015, 17:02
That's because it is not a competitive game. It is a narrative game. It's like trying to play chess using RPG rules.


That's the fundamental thing, though. A 'competitive' game (or as most would call it, a balanced game where people start feeling like that have a roughly equal chance of winning, depending on skill and a bit of luck) can be played naratively, you just don't worry much about how effective the armies you pick are and just go for fluff, make up whatever scenarios you want regardless of model points costs and so on. It's very little effort to decide what rules to ignore.

Meanwhile turning this nonsense into something that can be played with any semblance of balance is a monumental task, one likely to need to be repeated every time you play with different opponents outside of a particular gaming group. Adding rules and getting consensus is in comparison to leaving some out a lot of effort.


One caters for everyone, one caters for a (likely minority) subset. If you're trying to maximise the audience and hence sales, which do you think is a better idea?
Especially if in squatting an existing system you're creating a chunk of badwill that's likely to mean a further subset of your potential sub-niche market is going to be too pissed at you to go near your new product...
..

TheFang
07-07-2015, 17:02
Here is the difference between competitive and narrative in regards to mighty armies clashing:

The rules give you no information on how to set up. If you buy into undead you have no clue how to create any kind of fair encounter with the chaos or Sigmarines. Narrative, RPG or balanced battle you can't do it. It's just plonk miniatures down.



Especially if in squatting an existing system you're creating a chunk of badwill that's likely to mean a further subset of your potential sub-niche market is going to be too pissed at you to go near your new product...

This is what baffles me. It's as if they said "The interntet (whatever that is?) is annoyed with us. Lots of negativity towards GW. How could we make that worse?"

NatBrannigan
07-07-2015, 17:03
If nothing else the AoS release has brought about some funny posts here!

I kind of get the point about moving on some of the stereotypes and trying to revamp the image of wargaming, but it's just not going to happen. I remember my first trip to a GW with three similarly interested mates. They were having a massive sale (so this was at least 10 years ago) and the place was packed. The smell, as you can imagine, was like a slap to the face,

The store had put on a big participation game and at it's start a... larger... GW employee leapt onto a chair, took a swig from his can of diet coke, and yelled "Let's kill some Orks!". I didn't know what to make of it but it was the straw that broke the proverbial camels back for my three friends, who promptly left the store...

I guess i'm slightly more nerdy because I decided to give the game a go and haven't looked back since, but trying to get anyone at school interested was a nightare! The looks you got when you let slip you like wargames... Thank god i'm a bit of a jock as well or I think I would have been lynched, or at least wedgied...

Tau_player001
07-07-2015, 17:06
They've moved full blown away from the serious competitive crowd and embraced the casual for fun crowd.

Casual for fun crowd. Thanks man, i play hardly one time each two weeks miniature games and i play for fun (somebody does not play for fun ? lol). Am i casual or competitive because i like to play to win (on a game... where there are losers and winners, how crazy!).

By the way, how are the 9th edition rules going ? :P

Deadhorse
07-07-2015, 17:13
Yeah, it's a hobby for nerds that GW are trying to make into a hobby for children :p
That's because the game was created by nerds, but later taken over by corporates who cannot comprehend how this works.

I think, unfortunately for GW, that even with kids you have to be a bit of a nerd/outcast to get into the hobby. It'll never be as mainstream as console games and that's that, dumbing it down won't help.

Mr_Foulscumm
07-07-2015, 17:22
Casual for fun crowd. Thanks man, i play hardly one time each two weeks miniature games and i play for fun (somebody does not play for fun ? lol). Am i casual or competitive because i like to play to win (on a game... where there are losers and winners, how crazy!).

By the way, how are the 9th edition rules going ? :P

This division (competitive/casual) is what bad players use to justify their losses. :p <--- smiley indicating I'm kidding, in case I was too subtle

I play to have fun just like everyone else. Now I find winning fun, but it's not important enough to stop me from playing Goblins.

The division between what is called WAAC and Casual players isn't black and white, but that makes having heated debates about forum stuff so much harder, so people tend to stick with that image because it's just easier to deal with. After all, people love debates where the opponent is as different as possible so that they have more room to swing.

What I don't like about AoS (so far), is that it seems to be saying that casual play is the only way to play. Which annoys me to no end. I'm not sure how many people are really in to purely casual wargaming, where the outcome is of no real importance. In a game with a winner and a loser, the fun comes from not knowing before hand who is who and then finding out after playing.

Do people really enjoy playing games where the outcome is already clear from the start? Even if you just play "casually"?

I think not, but I could be wrong.

Tau_player001
07-07-2015, 17:35
It's not about winning, it's about playing a somewhat challenging game in your free time with a pal with the same expectations as you do. I am just paroding the parroting of namecalling for WAAC or competitive players in general, like we are some kind of outcasts.

I disagree mostly with the definition of casual tho. Casual is not the oppossite of competitive. In our gaming group we have one guy with whom is for me personally (and many others in my group) painful to play with. Not because he plays competitively, but the oppossite he puts absolutely zero thought in his play, he just move stuff randomly. It's his money, time and way of having fun, so i don't put fault on that, but i certainly regard different expectations on my gaming time too, so i avoid playing with him. Don't get me wrong, he is a fine dude, with whom i enjoy having a beer, just not playing.

The problem comes that people think that there is only one way of enjoying the game, that taking it seriously (whatever that means for them, because for competitive players understanding the mechanics and strategizing them is part of the fun, not about being serious) is not the way it should be played.

Of course there can be people who can actually even cheat, but there is the barrier for most competitive players and were we ethically can agree on, but if you get everybody in the same boat because one out of one hundred, you are being a dick to the other 99, so you would antagonize with them. Something that many of this "community" has failed to see over and over for so much time, that whenever they post "For Fun" as oppossite to "competition" it actually makes anyone with half a brain and honesty vomit out of disgust.

Mr_Foulscumm
07-07-2015, 17:37
It's not about winning, it's about playing a somewhat challenging game in your free time with a pal with the same expectations as you do. I am just paroding the parroting of namecalling for WAAC or competitive players in general, like we are some kind of outcasts.

I disagree mostly with the definition of casual tho. Casual is not the oppossite of competitive. In our gaming group we have one guy with whom is for me personally (and many others in my group) painful to play with. Not because he plays competitively, but the oppossite he puts absolutely zero thought in his play, he just move stuff randomly. It's his money, time and way of having fun, so i don't put fault on that, but i certainly regard different expectations on my gaming time too, so i avoid playing with him. Don't get me wrong, he is a fine dude, with whom i enjoy having a beer, just not playing.

The problem comes that people think that there is only one way of enjoying the game, that taking it seriously (whatever that means for them, because for competitive players understanding the mechanics and strategizing them is part of the fun, not about being serious) is not the way it should be played.

Of course there can be people who can actually even cheat, but there is the barrier for most competitive players and were we ethically can agree on, but if you get everybody in the same boat because one out of one hundred, you are being a dick to the other 99, so you would antagonize with them. Something that many of this "community" has failed to see over and over for so much time, that whenever they post "For Fun" as oppossite to "competition" it actually makes anyone with half a brain and honesty vomit out of disgust.

I was agreeing with you, and then asking a valid question at the end (which was not aimed at you) :)

Galain
07-07-2015, 18:02
You know how when you're driving, everyone going faster than you is an idiot and everyone going slower is a *****?

When you're playing wargames, everyone who brings a harder list than you is a powergamer and everyone who brings a softer list is a chump. AoS didn't change that, they just made it more difficult to actually tell who has a hard or soft list.

Edit: Why is "idiot" not censored but mo-ron is?

HelloKitty
07-07-2015, 18:09
The rules give you no information on how to set up. If you buy into undead you have no clue how to create any kind of fair encounter with the chaos or Sigmarines. Narrative, RPG or balanced battle you can't do it. It's just plonk miniatures down.

Indeed the games I started with also were like this. You had to look at stats and figure it out.




Casual for fun crowd. Thanks man, i play hardly one time each two weeks miniature games and i play for fun (somebody does not play for fun ? lol). Am i casual or competitive because i like to play to win (on a game... where there are losers and winners, how crazy!).

You would be the definition of a competitive player.

Playing for fun does not mean casual. Playing where winning or losing is the primary aspect of the game is competitive. Playing for the sake of playing regardless of outcome is the other end, which is casual. Thats how the games industry defines it anyway. We could have a whole forum topic splitting hairs on those two words, and indeed there have been dozens of threads over the years on that exact topic.

Both sides have fun playing how they play. When I say casual for-fun I am referring to casuals who don't care about their W/L record and are purely playing the game for the fun of it regardless of outcome.

Also I'm not calling competitive players WAAC players. Competitive players play where the win is the primary goal of why they play. That doesn't mean that they will be WAAC about it. WAAC is an extreme way of competitive playing.

It is often very hard for people who are competitive to understand casual in the sense that a casual really doesn't care if they win or lose, and it is often very hard for a casual to understand why competitive players seem to take the game and who wins so seriously (which is the cause of many online topics, both derogatory and non)

Eddie Chaos
07-07-2015, 18:14
I bought white dwarf, my first since the nagash issue.

I bought it out of morbid curiosity and false hope.

I think aos is a big enough event that white dwarf selling out was inevitable and means little.

Sent from my HTC One mini 2 using Tapatalk

Agrimax
07-07-2015, 18:17
It is often very hard for people who are competitive to understand casual in the sense that a casual really doesn't care if they win or lose, and it is often very hard for a casual to understand why competitive players seem to take the game and who wins so seriously (which is the cause of many online topics, both derogatory and non)


I'm not sure that's wholly true. Because very few people are as completely polarised as 'competitive' or 'casual', and take some enjoyment from aspects of each. Reality is that these aren't mutually exclusive concepts and people exist on a scale where one may be more important, but rarely to the entire exclusion of the other.

HelloKitty
07-07-2015, 18:21
I am speaking on extreme ends of the spectrum. You're right most people are a bit of both but also most people identify primarily with one of those over the other (i don't know many at all that are a straight 50/50 split)

Mr_Foulscumm
07-07-2015, 18:22
Indeed the games I started with also were like this. You had to look at stats and figure it out.





You would be the definition of a competitive player.

Playing for fun does not mean casual. Playing where winning or losing is the primary aspect of the game is competitive. Playing for the sake of playing regardless of outcome is the other end, which is casual. Thats how the games industry defines it anyway. We could have a whole forum topic splitting hairs on those two words, and indeed there have been dozens of threads over the years on that exact topic.

Both sides have fun playing how they play. When I say casual for-fun I am referring to casuals who don't care about their W/L record and are purely playing the game for the fun of it regardless of outcome.

Also I'm not calling competitive players WAAC players. Competitive players play where the win is the primary goal of why they play. That doesn't mean that they will be WAAC about it. WAAC is an extreme way of competitive playing.

It is often very hard for people who are competitive to understand casual in the sense that a casual really doesn't care if they win or lose, and it is often very hard for a casual to understand why competitive players seem to take the game and who wins so seriously (which is the cause of many online topics, both derogatory and non)

Would your hypothetical casual-not-caring-about-W/L player have fun playing a game where the outcome is already known?

Panzeh
07-07-2015, 18:24
It's kinda funny, because I consider a game more casual, not less, when both players can play to win and the game isn't broken when you do it. You don't have to argue with each other because the rules are tight- there's nothing to argue. It's way more chill when we can both try and play how we want instead of worrying about being beardy or anything.

It's like, when i play basketball, i'm playing to win, but it doesn't bother me if I lose- the trying is the important part. Losing just means I got beaten by the other guy, but it's no big deal.

Galain
07-07-2015, 18:24
Playing for fun does not mean casual. Playing where winning or losing is the primary aspect of the game is competitive.

The primary objective of the game is always to succeed, and the goal is to have fun while doing so. Competitive players don't break down into tears if they lose, they just don't like half-assing things.

HelloKitty
07-07-2015, 18:26
Would your hypothetical casual-not-caring-about-W/L player have fun playing a game where the outcome is already known?

Depends on the person really but yes most people that I know that sit primarily on the casual level don't care about that. As long as the game is not a steam roller victory, they would happily play a scenario where they will likely lose.

It should be noted that most people I play with are primarily competitive (as I am myself).

I am also not defending the holes in Age of Sigmar. Out of the box it requires two players to come to an agreement before hand. If you play it out of the box RAW with no limitations or agreements beforehand, most people will largely be angry.

HelloKitty
07-07-2015, 18:27
The primary objective of the game is always to succeed,

Not every person that plays games shares that objective. The primary objective of a game to a person that is competitive is to succeed yes.

Mr_Foulscumm
07-07-2015, 18:30
The primary objective of the game is always to succeed, and the goal is to have fun while doing so. Competitive players don't break down into tears if they lose, they just don't like half-assing things.

I'd say that one of the primary objectives of a game is to see who will win and who will lose. Because you can't have one without the other. People can have fun with games even when they lose.

Bingo the Fun Monkey
07-07-2015, 18:30
I love how angry the angry people get at people who are not angry.

Agrimax
07-07-2015, 18:31
I am speaking on extreme ends of the spectrum. You're right most people are a bit of both but also most people identify primarily with one of those over the other (i don't know many at all that are a straight 50/50 split)

But that's the point, speaking about extremes isn't that helpful, when the vast majority aren't at those extremes. I personally know very few people who will be happy with a system where you just plonk stuff down if it's then immediately obvious you're just going to spend the game removing your models. That's not "fun" in many people's books, however narrative they are.

Mr_Foulscumm
07-07-2015, 18:33
Depends on the person really but yes most people that I know that sit primarily on the casual level don't care about that. As long as the game is not a steam roller victory, they would happily play a scenario where they will likely lose.

It should be noted that most people I play with are primarily competitive (as I am myself).

I am also not defending the holes in Age of Sigmar. Out of the box it requires two players to come to an agreement before hand. If you play it out of the box RAW with no limitations or agreements beforehand, most people will largely be angry.

That was a round about way of saying "no"? :)

Mr_Foulscumm
07-07-2015, 18:33
I love how angry the angry people get at people who are not angry.

Who's angry?

dwarfhold13
07-07-2015, 18:36
I love reading the comments about casual/competative play. I've never met someone who plays chess or checkers just to see how the game unfolds. The nature of two armies/faction/sides going at it is competative, whether it's casual or not. Someone's drive to win can change the level of competativeness in a person, but you play games because you are competative.

Okuto
07-07-2015, 18:39
I had already come to the realization while ago that AoS wasn't made for me and I'm at peace with that. I didn't even like end's time that much either....

But yeah, white dwarf sold out pretty quick at my local store and lots of people there(who don't play fantasy) are asking me if AoS is a good entry. I couldn't in good faith say no(as I've already played a few games and they didn't suck hard) so I told them it's a good entry. It's made for them anyways the way I see it.

There's alot of interest from non warhammer fantasy players at my store but I'm probably the only traditional player who's saying go give AoS a go. It's not terrible....but it's not amazing either, it does it's job

HelloKitty
07-07-2015, 18:45
I love reading the comments about casual/competative play. I've never met someone who plays chess or checkers just to see how the game unfolds. The nature of two armies/faction/sides going at it is competative, whether it's casual or not. Someone's drive to win can change the level of competativeness in a person, but you play games because you are competative.

But I've met plenty of people who play RPGs that play to see how the game unfolds, which is what this system seems to be - similar to an RPG framework.

duffybear1988
07-07-2015, 18:50
I don't get it. I'm sorry, but I don't. Even if you are playing a narrative based game it's still going to be competitive at some level, otherwise what's the point at all?

For example I recently played a Rorke's Drift refight where 2 people controlled the Zulu forces against me playing the British redcoats. Now this was a narrative game with forces about the same as they were in the original battle. My objective was to hold out for 6 turns and the Zulu players had to capture all the buildings or wipe me out. Those objectives make it competitive even if it is a narrative driven game.

All this crap about games not being competitive... That's what a game is. If it has victory conditions, objectives or some sort of stated outcome then it's competitive.

Kisanis
07-07-2015, 18:56
If it wasn't competive the 4 pages would be about a chaos koombiya around a campfire with sigmar.

Its about being fun and relaxed competitive.

Thats more about people than the game tho.

My 40k speed freeks are not competitive, but they are fun. I still try every game still.

Sent from my Z30 using Tapatalk

Bingo the Fun Monkey
07-07-2015, 19:17
Who's angry?
Someone in another thread basically compared people who arent outraged (timmies) to antisemites. Also the first responses to the op in this thread.

Sent from my SM-T310 using Tapatalk

Mr_Foulscumm
07-07-2015, 19:34
Someone in another thread basically compared people who arent outraged (timmies) to antisemites. Also the first responses to the op in this thread.

Sent from my SM-T310 using Tapatalk

:wtf:

Oh well, takes all kinds I guess... :rolleyes:

Reinholt
07-07-2015, 19:45
In my experiance most Fantasy (and 40k for that matter) players don't fall into one or the other of these groups but lie somewhere in the middle. They want a fun game between two approximatley equal forces. I play rugby most weekends for my local club. I don't take it too seriously but still enjoy winning a close run game between two roughly equal teams. It's still casual, it's still very fun but I think a big part of that comes because both players / teams have a good chance of winning the game.

It's getting a bit galling that everyone who thinks AoS will be fun are accusing the players who opinions differ of being "Win at all costs competative players", "tournament players" or "Neckbeards". I don't even know what a Neckbeard is!

I know this was said a few pages back, but I want to pull it forward because it is an exceptional point.

If you lay out a continuum between casual and competitive, I think you actually mis-read what gamers want. More effective is a radar style diagram (example) (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/18/Spider_Chart2.jpg) where you lay out things like competitiveness, narrative, model appearance, background, etc.

If you are thinking about maximizing the appeal of a game, you need to conform to the majority of potential customers in most of these variations, and also, more is usually better than less barring the extremes.

Or, in short, if your scale is 1-10 and you leave competitiveness at 1, anyone with a 2 or higher on that will be dissatisfied. So not only do you blank out the 10-level "competition is the only thing that matters and my army is bare plastic I glued together last night" types, but you also blank out a pretty solid majority of narrative players who at least want a 3ish or better to keep things balanced or at least measurable.

This is where I think AoS is a huge gamble that won't pay off. GW essentially went with an exceptionally minimal value for balance. It will be an interesting market test to see how many people actually want a game with the dial set that low, even those who don't rate competition as their #1 concern.


Someone in another thread basically compared people who arent outraged (timmies) to antisemites. Also the first responses to the op in this thread.

A bit over the top. My advice to those who are outraged is speak your piece and then do not, under any circumstances, buy it or encourage others to buy it. Feel free to discourage them, in fact.

However, everyone should have the right of free belief and free association. If someone else likes it, feel free to debate, but it's not a personal insult if they are wrong and if other people feel differently, fine. I mean, some people like Nutella, which is sick and evil, but that's their choice.

Freaks.

Galain
07-07-2015, 19:54
But I've met plenty of people who play RPGs that play to see how the game unfolds, which is what this system seems to be - similar to an RPG framework.

Except that an RPG is a co-operative game with no actual "win" condition moderated by an all-powerful arbiter.

No such arbiter exists in AoS, and the two players involved ARE pitted against each other to compete. How hard they want to compete is irrelevant, because with the lack of framework set by GW anyone who wants to compete in a fair game even a little bit is left at the whims of whoever they're facing. There's a reason games tend to have rules; not because people are ********, but because people tend to naturally jockey for advantages within whatever framework they're given.

Reaper85
07-07-2015, 20:05
Theirs an additional problem here... GW is a business, and its their business to make money. I've seen it in many instances, where a business will eliminate a chunk of the playerbase to make "changes" a man who crunches numbers for a living thinks needs done, rather than leave that decision to a person who understands a game and its gamers more.

So we can possibly make a few assumptions here, despite the numbers, GW isn't doing as well as it proclaims, and its failing, causing a panic reaction in a bid to save part of the franchise, making a one size fits nobody game simply to sell units. "One man" stores, insane price hikes to recoup capital would fall in line with this hoping the "loyal" fanbase will throw money at it.

GW is financially surviving, but WFB is becoming a drain on the profits, either too many people are leaving or have enough models to satisfy their collection, meaning their spending is low and not enough players are filling the void that these players are making. A game that "takes no time to set up" and "minimal rules" seems sensible to lure in the younger generation of console playing kids, but the delivery has been shocking.

option 3 is GW are having money fights and simply can't be bothered pissing about with the rule set anymore :p

Anyone with any more plausible theories?

Pink Horror
07-07-2015, 20:07
But I've met plenty of people who play RPGs that play to see how the game unfolds, which is what this system seems to be - similar to an RPG framework.
RPGs tend to have some system for planning out an encounter that matches the current power level of the players: monster levels and such.

Deadhorse
07-07-2015, 20:15
People mentioned RPGs, and while it is true that players are usually not competing, there is a very clear framework for character development, combat, etc. And the "open" part of the rules requires a GM whose role is specifically to fill in the framework for each session. So in an RPG the players are working together to solve a puzzle. In a competitive board game, each player is trying to solve a puzzle that other players are a part of. But all the rules and boundaries are there.

AoS is the first game I've seen where such a huge chunk of the framework is missing, replaced with what is pretty much a "do whatever".

daftpunkevo
07-07-2015, 20:31
https://scontent-cdg2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/11695523_1016215381722067_6075305335171378769_n.jp g?oh=04b943db52f383eced29a848792210fa&oe=5620B622

My favorite store just recieved 75 AOS box, one is already built and painted for test purpose, i'll check tomorrow how many they sold, they sold a few today. I don't think WhiteDwarf sales are worth anything...

Drakkar du Chaos
07-07-2015, 20:34
Someone in another thread basically compared people who arent outraged (timmies) to antisemites. Also the first responses to the op in this thread.

Sent from my SM-T310 using Tapatalk

Make a joke about WD delivery and its the same as an "you're antisemite" ? Good one, keep going lol

Bloodknight
07-07-2015, 20:40
i'll check tomorrow how many they sold, they sold a few today

That should be interesting. Even more interesting is how many they will sell in 3 months time, compared to 40K and how many starter boxes WFB sold.

jascarr4
07-07-2015, 20:47
A neckbeard is a derogatory term for a stereotypical gamer. It refers to a man that has a beard on his neck and is meant as an insult referring to poor personal hygiene.

Wouldn't "poopy pants" be clearer?

Inquisitor Kallus
07-07-2015, 20:57
Who's angry?

Lots of people on Warseer.

"How can you not be angry with what theyve done to Warhammer. MY WARHAMMER!!"

Id people are happy with what happened in 8th then they should just continue with it. I think the only bad thing for me is the loss of certain lines/models that is rumoured to happen when forces are updated. I dont buy much fantasy anymore, only to convert with (generally Inq28 stuff) so it will be disappointing if al those great sets go.

In regards to the new rules im not paticularly worried

NatBrannigan
07-07-2015, 21:37
It is hard to see how you can be actually angry about a change to a game... Confused? Oh yes indeed! Annoyed as well but there will always be those who still want to play 8th. Failing that Kings of War 2nd is out soon and is bound to be a solid game. Failing that I've heard good things about Avatars of War so there will hopefully be options still for everyone to play the game the way they want to.

I myself and disappointed because after at least two years of development, this is the best GW could do. It feels like an unfinished game. As I said earlier, where's the Beef?

But really no reason to get actually angry!

Crovax20
07-07-2015, 21:52
I sold my WHF about 6 months ago. The new starter set and rules actually has made me interested in Warhammer Fantasy again...

I must be crazy.

Mawduce
07-07-2015, 21:58
Day 1 to get it, it did very well. A new game I think we all knew people were going to check it out. Trouble is, everyone has said the game is unplayable. It's like Batman: Akrham Knight. Sold well, day 1 blockbuster. Broken piece of crap on PC. So bad it shined a light on the business practice of the companies involved in its creation that weren't so great and have tainted both.

Even Mininwargaming, the channel I think which is the most level headed when it comes to GW, did a test game where they admit the game is unplayable RAW. Their comp system seems to be working and they are still testing just be sure.

Minsc
07-07-2015, 21:59
I sold my WHF about 6 months ago. The new starter set and rules actually has made me interested in Warhammer Fantasy again...

I must be crazy.

You're not the only one who's crazy. :)

When 8th Ed. hit in 2010, I owned 6 different armies, and WFB was my go-to minature wargame. (I really loved 6th and 7th Ed.)
2 years into 8th Ed , I had sold off 4 of my armies, and barely played WFB anymore.

Currently, only one of my armies remain (but it's more or less "on sale"), and I haven't played WFB in over 2 years.

AoS is actually making me somewhat interrested in the game again, and I'm even considering getting the starterset.

Me and those I (used) to play WFB with all agree on one thing; AoS might have killed WFB (as we know it), but it's 8th Ed. who actually brought WFB to the gallows to be hanged in the first place.

The_Real_Chris
07-07-2015, 22:09
because of nostalgia for the old games they used to play. The problem is that nothing can compete with that. Shenmue 2 and ff7 do not hold up. I recently went back and read some of the early gotrek novels, which I first read when they where new. They do not hold up either, ...

Try going back and reading your realm of chaos books or some of the old wfrp background articles in white dwarf. Feel the same way about them?

The_Real_Chris
07-07-2015, 22:12
As to who they are aiming at, maybe the goal is to ultimately counter the old GW viz cartoon (do a search, I got a warning last time I linked to it).

AngryAngel
07-07-2015, 22:15
A neckbeard is a derogatory term for a stereotypical gamer. It refers to a man that has a beard on his neck and is meant as an insult referring to poor personal hygiene.

I know, because I've never met anyone with a beard who wasn't a nerdy, dirty, smelly, monster of a man, like Santa, what a loathsome neckbeard. Such a stupid phrase.

How about, we rename those types, Glotkins ? Beasts or Nurgle ? Or what I've said a time or two, Great Unclean ones ?


I love how angry the angry people get at people who are not angry.

I love the people angry, about people being angry, as much as I am the people being negative about the people being negative.


But I've met plenty of people who play RPGs that play to see how the game unfolds, which is what this system seems to be - similar to an RPG framework.

This is not an RPG, and that statement is as false now, as it was the original time it was trotted out. The game is not a co op, nor is it all about the story. As little story is really found out with mashing units together in a scrum in the center of a board. As well, if your saying warhammer is as story driven as an RPG, your either playing the most drawn out game of warhammer ever, or some really awful RPGs.

Tzar Boris
07-07-2015, 22:28
I'm actually loving AOS as a ruleset. Borked in its current condition as it is (RAW).

Clean and able to be added to (Houserules less likely to break stuff)

Free. (Always a good price)

I don't like the new background - but when I heard the name I thought they were gonna do a Horus Heresy and place it in the "Age of Sigmar" (Unberogens and stuff). I liked the not knowing the fate of Sigmar. You could've regarded him just as some lucky guy that met some ill fate on the road east, or you could've believed he was some great God Emperor of mankind. Now we know. And it's slightly disappointing. As are the "mortal realms" - almost like a limbo from the grim reality of the Warhammer World. For an online fighting game it'd be a great excuse to have zero narrative, but I just don't feel invested in this "magic land" - I always assumed the birthplace of the winds of magic was the Warp, the tempest of malevolence and darkness that would drive a mortal mad. Any future basis in this land will take me farther away from the background that made Warhammer what it was. Mortality in the hands of Cruel Gods. The darkest of themes. Now we're beyond the looking glass and the reality is much less morbid. But also much less hopeful. There is no end, there is no peace in the garden of Morr. It's just more of the same crap, ad infinituum. Like the end of 2001: A Space Odyssey. It's fine and oh so poetic, but I always felt "You just gave up on the story at this point, didn't you?"

So I'll happily play freebie modified AOS rules with WFB armies. Like some horrible gaming leech. Haven't felt the need/had the money to buy a GW model in ages anyway. XD

Spiney Norman
07-07-2015, 23:20
lol our GW sold out before the door opened up on saturday. Seriously. We just had the demo table ready, the manager opened the door, first guy walked in and asked for one, was told it was sold out.

Yeah, our LGS had sold out all his WD allocation to preorder before doors opened on Saturday. Currently copies of WD 75 are going for around £15+ on ebay (as in people are actually bidding them that high).

Looks like Age of Sigmar is a massive home run for GW, whatever warseer at large thinks.

Mr_Foulscumm
07-07-2015, 23:44
Yeah, our LGS had sold out all his WD allocation to preorder before doors opened on Saturday. Currently copies of WD 75 are going for around £15+ on ebay (as in people are actually bidding them that high).

Looks like Age of Sigmar is a massive home run for GW, whatever warseer at large thinks.

Could be true, but basing this off of WD sales seems a little premature. :)

Reaper85
07-07-2015, 23:48
Yeah, our LGS had sold out all his WD allocation to preorder before doors opened on Saturday. Currently copies of WD 75 are going for around £15+ on ebay (as in people are actually bidding them that high).

Looks like Age of Sigmar is a massive home run for GW, whatever warseer at large thinks.

I'm with the view of a fair few people here... WD sales is not an indicator what AoS will actually do, we can confirm its generated interest, sure. But we need to see that level of interest roll onwards into games purchases and continued gaming if its going to survive. Additionally, it selling on Ebay for 15 quid, if from a private seller, does nothing to put cash into GW, it makes whoever bought the WD and listed it much better off though.

Spiney Norman
07-07-2015, 23:54
It would be far more interesting to find out how many boxes of AoS has shifted. My current gaming group has bought exactly zero. Nobody has even suggested playing a game yet. Basicaly we took a look at the rules, had a bit of a laugh and went off to play a game of Starwars Armarda. That, for me, sums up GW's problems at the moment.

Fair enough, conversely my own anecdote runs somewhat differently, we had four tables running ApS games at our club tonight, the local indy store in town has taken 10 pre-orders for the starter set (of which I account for 50% of one of them). On the flip side, no-one even owns Star Wars armada due to the high cost of the starter game compared to what you get for it.


I'm with the view of a fair few people here... WD sales is not an indicator what AoS will actually do, we can confirm its generated interest, sure. But we need to see that level of interest roll onwards into games purchases and continued gaming if its going to survive. Additionally, it selling on Ebay for 15 quid, if from a private seller, does nothing to put cash into GW, it makes whoever bought the WD and listed it much better off though.

Granted, but it is certainly an indicator that not everyone is calling down curses upon GW HQ without trying the game for themselves. Selling out of WD to preorder can't possibly be construed as a bad sign.

Reaper85
08-07-2015, 00:06
Granted, but it is certainly an indicator that not everyone is calling down curses upon GW HQ without trying the game for themselves. Selling out of WD to preorder can't possibly be construed as a bad sign.

true enough, but being that nobody really has a clue whats going on and WD is one of the more focal points for GW information, it makes sense theirs a sh*tstorm to pick up copies, many will be grabbing them to keep for down the line as collectable issues. Its not an "average" WD its one with the distinction of a new chapter in WFB history. Lots of things contribute to this sales frenzy. But in the end, time will be the best indicator, i am suspicious of this "AoS" thing, but i'm not condemning anything without more information on it.

mbh1127
08-07-2015, 00:07
I know, because I've never met anyone with a beard who wasn't a nerdy, dirty, smelly, monster of a man, like Santa, what a loathsome neckbeard. Such a stupid phrase.

How about, we rename those types, Glotkins ? Beasts or Nurgle ? Or what I've said a time or two, Great Unclean ones ?



I love the people angry, about people being angry, as much as I am the people being negative about the people being negative.



This is not an RPG, and that statement is as false now, as it was the original time it was trotted out. The game is not a co op, nor is it all about the story. As little story is really found out with mashing units together in a scrum in the center of a board. As well, if your saying warhammer is as story driven as an RPG, your either playing the most drawn out game of warhammer ever, or some really awful RPGs.


neckbeards stay but I lol'd at Glottkin.

Shandor
08-07-2015, 00:17
Yeah, our LGS had sold out all his WD allocation to preorder before doors opened on Saturday. Currently copies of WD 75 are going for around £15+ on ebay (as in people are actually bidding them that high).

Looks like Age of Sigmar is a massive home run for GW, whatever warseer at large thinks.

If you need some AoS Boxes.. here in Berlin are alot that dont sell. :) Feel free to get them.

Spiney Norman
08-07-2015, 00:25
true enough, but being that nobody really has a clue whats going on and WD is one of the more focal points for GW information, it makes sense theirs a sh*tstorm to pick up copies, many will be grabbing them to keep for down the line as collectable issues. Its not an "average" WD its one with the distinction of a new chapter in WFB history. Lots of things contribute to this sales frenzy. But in the end, time will be the best indicator, i am suspicious of this "AoS" thing, but i'm not condemning anything without more information on it.

The problem, of course, is that the very fact that WD is such a sell out only validates GWs whole horrible, non-communicative business model...

duffybear1988
08-07-2015, 00:44
I think WD sold out because it had a free figure. I know people that bought multiples just to get a unit of sigmarines cheap.

mhsellwood
08-07-2015, 00:47
Interesting how little engagement there has been with the actual initial post, i.e. that WD has sold out, that the digital copy is in the top 10 and the book is a big seller, all of which indicate a lot of initial interest. As Reinholt has pointed out it is a (good) start but not an end point by any stretch of the imagination and GW have to feed this initial interest and convert it into long terms buying patterns to have a successful product.

Some things they are currently doing to build on this initial excitement include active marketing (e.g. I know there are a couple of sites that have received review copies, also plans to attend actual conventions, some really well done youtube videos) which indicates an active interest in reaching out beyond the current market. They also appear to be releasing a book this Saturday which will expand on the core four pages with things like an expanded magic phase, and more scenarios etc. This is well placed to allow people to pick up the box set, have a few games, enjoy some knock around games and then expand further to get more value from your miniatures. I would expect that we will see more development of scenarios and a more active narrative for these scenarios, and probably a 'competitive' set of scenarios. 'Competitive' would be easy enough to do - just design some scenarios that follow (or replicate) the 8th edition model of scenarios and have some built in scenario special rules that govern army list construction to get a decent balance without too much pre game communication required.

Re. the model proposed by Reinholt with the various axes of desire for different game elements. I think this is correct, but I think that the balance / competitiveness aspect can be fulfilled in ways other than pure competition points matches which most old time Warhammerers like myself are familiar with. As Duffybear1988 mentions, a good game can be had with Rorkes Drift - the very definition of a non points balanced match up. Competitive games need to offer both players a reasonable chance of victory and the ability to actually influence your chance of victory through game play. So, an Age of Sigmar scenario about a doomed last stand by some Stormcast to give their Lord Celestant the chance to rally his host? Cool - differing army selection limitations, differing army victory conditions and a narrative reality that makes the scenario resonate will make for a 'competitive' game with no points required. We as players can develop these - but I would be more than happy if GW did the hard yards themselves!

Captain Idaho
08-07-2015, 00:52
Who cares if White Dwarf sold out? Even if the Age of Sigmar boxed set sold 100,000 units in it's 1st weekend, if it doesn't sell much in the next 5 years and the player base dwindles as GW's target aaudience choose video games rather than this geeky pursuit we're into, then it's a failure.

Initial sales create a bubble and it's longevity that matters. Creating a game for kids is great but this is a hobby not a game and therefore it's a niche release.

GW doesn't get that only a certain kind of person are into wargaming and keep trying to sell it to the masses. What they've done here is reject their current, traditional customer base for a customer base that won't be interested in gaming.

mhsellwood
08-07-2015, 00:52
I think WD sold out because it had a free figure. I know people that bought multiples just to get a unit of sigmarines cheap.

Sorry for the multi post - but this interesting. If people are doing this doesn't it validate GWs aesthetic direction with the Stormcast? I mean, even at the 'cheap' price it is still more than buying lots of other ranges, and currently the only GW rules (and arguably rules in general apart from some build your own rulesets) to use them with are Age of Sigmar. So some people are sufficiently motivated by the model on it's merits that they will buy them?

duffybear1988
08-07-2015, 01:00
Sorry for the multi post - but this interesting. If people are doing this doesn't it validate GWs aesthetic direction with the Stormcast? I mean, even at the 'cheap' price it is still more than buying lots of other ranges, and currently the only GW rules (and arguably rules in general apart from some build your own rulesets) to use them with are Age of Sigmar. So some people are sufficiently motivated by the model on it's merits that they will buy them?

Take a look on ebay at the silly prices WD and the figures are being sold for. If the rumours about a box of them costing £30 are true then you can see why people bought a few early on. Besides at my club the only sigmarines being used are 5 converted assault terminators in a blood angels army :)

I wouldn't exactly call it a landslide victory for AoS. Once the new shiny syndrome has gone away and people are bored of the same battle being fought over and over again it's likely to be a different story. I'm still waiting for the hordes of new children to descend on the local store and buy all these starter sets - it was dead in there again today when I walked past after work.

The financial reports are going to be eye opening this year.

Dosiere
08-07-2015, 01:15
It's a shame people seem to want other players out of the hobby. I've been reading posts from supposed "casual" players who think the hobby would be better off without, in their view, WAAC players.

It's not so easy to identify your typical player as either casual or competitive, as the vast majority want both in their gaming. Even at tournaments people are their to have fun and are usually relaxed. Many are their precisely because it's more competitive than usual, even though normally they don't play so seriously. Conversely, even in friendly pick up games between friends drinking beer in a garage part of the fun being had is a measure of competitiveness in the game. My point is that almost no body is a 1 or a 10 on some nonexistent competitiveness meter.

Which is why AoS makes little sense to me so far. It's so overwhelmingly casual I can't help but think it's going to alienate more players than it needed to. I've been a war gaming nerd for almost 20 years and while I did buy the white dwarf, I'll not be buying the starter set. This makes me a little sad because AoS might make a good starter game for potential hobbyists, it also happens to be replacing, not complementing, Warhammer Fantasy Battles.

The insulting joke rules in the Warscrolls tells you just what GW thinks of long time players like myself and their opinions though.

mhsellwood
08-07-2015, 01:19
Take a look on ebay at the silly prices WD and the figures are being sold for. If the rumours about a box of them costing £30 are true then you can see why people bought a few early on. Besides at my club the only sigmarines being used are 5 converted assault terminators in a blood angels army :)

Nice. I have some heads from a Grey Hunter box set along with weapons etc. The Stormcast match the bits perfectly - a little bit of chopping and changing and I can see an easy thunder warrior army, adeptus custodes, true scale marines etc.


I wouldn't exactly call it a landslide victory for AoS. Once the new shiny syndrome has gone away and people are bored of the same battle being fought over and over again it's likely to be a different story. I'm still waiting for the hordes of new children to descend on the local store and buy all these starter sets - it was dead in there again today when I walked past after work.

The financial reports are going to be eye opening this year.

Agreed on too early to call it one way or the other. I think GW are really making every effort to get the return on investment they expect and that despite what we may hope Warhammer Fantasy has been doomed , probably very early in the 8th edition actually (and I think that GW is partly to blame for this doom but also is reflective of cultural changes they have no influence on). Age of Sigmar is not Warhammer: the Reboot. It is Age of Sigmar: Games Workshops new fantasy game that borrows some of its bones and a bit of its soul from the old game.

We will have the 14/15 AFS in the next couple of weeks I believe. This will not show anything of Age of Sigmar which will affect the next half yearly report. I expect the 14/15 AFS will show revenue down a few million on last (probably around 2 -3 %).

AngryAngel
08-07-2015, 01:33
neckbeards stay but I lol'd at Glottkin.

I reject the phrase neckbeard and I cast it out, its bigoted on people who like/have beards, and as a dwarf player, it makes me wish to destroy you, blood oath sworn. That said, I'm going to start using the glottkin to describe those people, most people won't know what I'm talking about, and I think its more fitting. Glad you enjoyed, my mortal enemy !!


I think WD sold out because it had a free figure. I know people that bought multiples just to get a unit of sigmarines cheap.

Exactly this, people did the same with the WD that had the free terminator and nob when assault on black reach hit. I don't think that it means AoS is the next coming of the heavenly game.


Sorry for the multi post - but this interesting. If people are doing this doesn't it validate GWs aesthetic direction with the Stormcast? I mean, even at the 'cheap' price it is still more than buying lots of other ranges, and currently the only GW rules (and arguably rules in general apart from some build your own rulesets) to use them with are Age of Sigmar. So some people are sufficiently motivated by the model on it's merits that they will buy them?

No one said GWs look for the models was awful. I actually don't like the sigmarines, they look too new age super action movie bad for me, the chaos side looks very good however, I point out no one has questioned they can put out ace models, its the rules that are pants on head awful.



Take a look on ebay at the silly prices WD and the figures are being sold for. If the rumours about a box of them costing £30 are true then you can see why people bought a few early on. Besides at my club the only sigmarines being used are 5 converted assault terminators in a blood angels army :)

I wouldn't exactly call it a landslide victory for AoS. Once the new shiny syndrome has gone away and people are bored of the same battle being fought over and over again it's likely to be a different story. I'm still waiting for the hordes of new children to descend on the local store and buy all these starter sets - it was dead in there again today when I walked past after work.

The financial reports are going to be eye opening this year.

Agreed

Coldhatred
08-07-2015, 01:42
I reject the phrase neckbeard and I cast it out, its bigoted on people who like/have beards, and as a dwarf player, it makes me wish to destroy you, blood oath sworn. That said, I'm going to start using the glottkin to describe those people, most people won't know what I'm talking about, and I think its more fitting. Glad you enjoyed, my mortal enemy !!

Sir, I demand you photoshop a beard onto your avatar to prove your beardy loyalty.

Overall I think it's much too early to call it either way. The starter set of AoS, I think, is only the beginning.

Chikout
08-07-2015, 01:46
I think the thing that surprised me the most was the sales of the digital white dwarf. It is objectively an extrememly shoddy product, no care whasoever has been taken to adapt it for a digital meduim, which is a shame as when the old white dwarf first went digital it was kind of a revelation, it even had videos if actual designers talking about the product. So when i saw that it was selling orders of magnitude better than before, without the one thing that would make it worth buying, i was kind of shocked.
Incidentally, do you remember those awesome videos of Jes and Phil talking about the dark eldar reboot. Why dont they do that again? Sometimes i feel that someone at hq is saying

Oh no we did something our customers actually liked. Lets never do that again.

AngryAngel
08-07-2015, 02:05
Sir, I demand you photoshop a beard onto your avatar to prove your beardy loyalty.

Overall I think it's much too early to call it either way. The starter set of AoS, I think, is only the beginning.

The Joker, with a beard ? Now that would be crazy..As side note, I do point out, even hell had a beginning, and beginnings aren't always a good thing. Ergo, is it the beginning of something truly good, or the beginning of the complete end ? Only time will tell.

Edit: I didn't add a beard, but I did the next best thing, because it isn't about the beard, its about sending a message...and that is me..burning all those hard to find WD copies up..because I'm a simple man..who likes knives..gasoline..and fire.

Kahadras
08-07-2015, 02:24
Fair enough, conversely my own anecdote runs somewhat differently, we had four tables running ApS games at our club tonight, the local indy store in town has taken 10 pre-orders for the starter set (of which I account for 50% of one of them). On the flip side, no-one even owns Star Wars armada due to the high cost of the starter game compared to what you get for it.


Well start up for Armarda is, on face value, quite a lot. It's about £80 for the starter set which I have to agree is steep (although it's going for less than £60 on Amazon at the moment). What we have found is that after you've bought the starter set things things get a lot better. If you pick up another capital ship and a fighter box set (between £30 and £50) you're pretty much in the ball park for a regular game (300 points) with plenty of oppertunity to mix things up with all the different cards you get in the set. That's about £130 (or £180 if you want 2 fleets). I did a comparison to the X-wing starter set (which retails at about £30) a while back and Armarda didn't look bad when I set them side by side. I certainly felt you got way more than twice the content in the Armarda box and the game felt more 'complete' straight out of the box.

Pacman
08-07-2015, 06:21
GW doesn't get that only a certain kind of person are into wargaming and keep trying to sell it to the masses. What they've done here is reject their current, traditional customer base for a customer base that won't be interested in gaming.

I think this is the crux of the problem. GW went through a bit of a golden period in the 80s and 90s with really wide engagement outside the wargaming hobby. They still do to an extent, plenty of people playing GW games don't play any historical or non-GW wargames and they've got the youth wargaming market sewn up.

However, the market has contracted. Wargaming as a whole has suffered a decline from the rise of video games. I think there are a fair amount of folks out there playing Total War that if it were 20 years ago would be playing tabletop wargames. And good on them, those games are great, you can throw down £20 and get a wargame that looks amazing and has masses of tactical depth. Just look at the demographic at most wargames clubs. Wargaming as a hobby is getting grey, and GW seems to be acting like they can still drive growth rather than facing the fact that like every other part of the hobby they should be accepting contraction. I know that's anathema to the orthodox business mindset, but I think if they want to survive in the longterm they should be positioning themselves to be leaner.

Wargaming isn't going away, but expecting little painted dollies on a table to be as popular in the contemporary mainstream as it was 20 years ago is unrealistic IMO. There are now too many different media competing to give people their tactical gaming fix for that to be so.

Dosiere
08-07-2015, 07:04
Some good points, but I think we can agree there are ways to make it more accessible and less intimidating to get into the hobby than your typical WFB or even 40k game. It's ALOT to invest just to start playing, and intimidating to get into the painting and hobby side of the system. They had the right idea here, making a game that could scale down to just a few models. WFB was particularly bad at this scaling down in a balanced way. It just seems they did a bad job of it, in particular the way they have handled their communications with their current customers, ie no communication at all.

Would it really have been so hard to make a few videos talking about the new game, why they made it, suggestions for WFB players on how to play and get the most out of the new system, maybe a Q and A with a few hobbyists? Nope, all we get are the Warscrolls which make fun of our old models and encourage us to never play with them in public places. This thing had promise, but it's like they stopped before making it really good, and did a terrible job selling it to current WFB players. I just don't get it. Still holding out hope later releases will make it better, but right now I just don't get it.

Mawduce
08-07-2015, 08:39
Some good points, but I think we can agree there are ways to make it more accessible and less intimidating to get into the hobby than your typical WFB or even 40k game. It's ALOT to invest just to start playing, and intimidating to get into the painting and hobby side of the system. They had the right idea here, making a game that could scale down to just a few models. WFB was particularly bad at this scaling down in a balanced way. It just seems they did a bad job of it, in particular the way they have handled their communications with their current customers, ie no communication at all.

Would it really have been so hard to make a few videos talking about the new game, why they made it, suggestions for WFB players on how to play and get the most out of the new system, maybe a Q and A with a few hobbyists? Nope, all we get are the Warscrolls which make fun of our old models and encourage us to never play with them in public places. This thing had promise, but it's like they stopped before making it really good, and did a terrible job selling it to current WFB players. I just don't get it. Still holding out hope later releases will make it better, but right now I just don't get it.

1. They didn't even tell Forgeworld what was happening. How do you think those people feel right now. I can't imagine there isn't someone at Forgeworld right now thinking about leaving and starting their own company.

2. They had those games. Mordheim, Necomunda, Kill team... they've had tons of chances to grasp that end of the market and either snuffed their noses at it or at best just ignored it till it went away. They wanted apocalypse, they wanted super high model counts to keep people buying. They forgot about the barrier to entry. Now they've dumbed it down so far people will either look for something more full filling or play once or twice and quit. They won't expand beyond the main box. It's pants on head retarded how this was handled.

Spiney Norman
08-07-2015, 08:53
1. They didn't even tell Forgeworld what was happening. How do you think those people feel right now. I can't imagine there isn't someone at Forgeworld right now thinking about leaving and starting their own company.

I don't think they're really that bothered, forgeworld is all about the heresy these days, how many companies do you think fully brief their entire company on what each division is working on?

Mawduce
08-07-2015, 09:35
I don't think they're really that bothered, forgeworld is all about the heresy these days, how many companies do you think fully brief their entire company on what each division is working on?

When what the company is doing effects the entire company, a lot. Companies that are irresponsible don't. They had an entire line of Fantasy stuff they have to work out now that takes them away from 30k and 40k stuff. You can't tell me there aren't employees thinking what else could be coming.

Nightfall Shimmer
08-07-2015, 09:47
Forge World don't do Fantasy. They have never really done Fantasy, so Age of Sigmar doesn't really effect them at all. They probably were told a while back. But it's so far at the bottom of Forge Worlds priority list I doubt we're likely to see any Warscrolls for a bit.

NatBrannigan
08-07-2015, 10:35
Edit: I didn't add a beard, but I did the next best thing, because it isn't about the beard, its about sending a message...and that is me..burning all those hard to find WD copies up..because I'm a simple man..who likes knives..gasoline..and fire.

And Tanks! I suggest a tactical retreat to the Imperial Guard Tactica thread. We can talk about how to counter all the new Blood angles THSS Terminators that are sure to be hitting 40k tables soon...

Kisanis
08-07-2015, 11:03
Forge World don't do Fantasy. They have never really done Fantasy, so Age of Sigmar doesn't really effect them at all. They probably were told a while back. But it's so far at the bottom of Forge Worlds priority list I doubt we're likely to see any Warscrolls for a bit.
All those chaos dwarves, nurgle, and empire models say otherwise.

Forgeworld was supposed to do fantasy. GW axed that too because it wasn't selling, just like the rest of the fantasy line.

GW handled this somewhat poorly. Im still on the fence until I play more games. Why GW didnt just use a tweaked 40k ruleset for fantasy im not sure (universal movement, same rules and table pyschic/magic phase) combined with battlescrolls is beyond me. 1 set of rules - 2 games.

Sent from my Z30 using Tapatalk

Hoffa
08-07-2015, 11:42
I think this is the crux of the problem. GW went through a bit of a golden period in the 80s and 90s with really wide engagement outside the wargaming hobby. They still do to an extent, plenty of people playing GW games don't play any historical or non-GW wargames and they've got the youth wargaming market sewn up.

However, the market has contracted. Wargaming as a whole has suffered a decline from the rise of video games. I think there are a fair amount of folks out there playing Total War that if it were 20 years ago would be playing tabletop wargames. And good on them, those games are great, you can throw down £20 and get a wargame that looks amazing and has masses of tactical depth. Just look at the demographic at most wargames clubs. Wargaming as a hobby is getting grey, and GW seems to be acting like they can still drive growth rather than facing the fact that like every other part of the hobby they should be accepting contraction. I know that's anathema to the orthodox business mindset, but I think if they want to survive in the longterm they should be positioning themselves to be leaner.

Wargaming isn't going away, but expecting little painted dollies on a table to be as popular in the contemporary mainstream as it was 20 years ago is unrealistic IMO. There are now too many different media competing to give people their tactical gaming fix for that to be so.

The wargaming market is actually booming currently, It is just due to massive incompetence that GW is shrinking in a growing market.

Deadhorse
08-07-2015, 11:47
As above - there is massive growth on the miniatures/wargames/boardgames market.

This is because, thanks to computer games, an interest in fantasy/sf is no longer the domain of pale nerdy kids, but is pretty much mainstream. Same with game mechanics. People got used to them, like them and are open to them in other areas besides computers/consoles.

GW have been mostly unable to tap that growth so far, and are losing customers like crazy (this is compensated by price hikes).

Kahadras
08-07-2015, 11:50
Some good points, but I think we can agree there are ways to make it more accessible and less intimidating to get into the hobby than your typical WFB or even 40k game. It's ALOT to invest just to start playing, and intimidating to get into the painting and hobby side of the system. They had the right idea here, making a game that could scale down to just a few models. WFB was particularly bad at this scaling down in a balanced way. It just seems they did a bad job of it, in particular the way they have handled their communications with their current customers, ie no communication at all.

As one of my friends pointed out. If you want to make more accessable games why not bring back Bloodbowl, Necromunda and Mordheim? Rules are already there. Model count is fairly low. Nostalgia will capture a lot of interest from vets and hopefully nets new players as well.

Captain Idaho
08-07-2015, 11:52
I find it darkly amusing other companies are seeing a boom in sales yet are keeping tight and balanced rules to complement their models. GW just don't understand their market. Or more accurately, they think their product is something that it isn't.

Without the game, the sales would be minimal. Sooner GW accept this, the sooner they'll save themselves.

ScruffMan
08-07-2015, 13:02
I'd imagine other companies have not yet hit the peak that GW did though. I think that they looked at what made Warhammer stand out from other options such as video gaming and attempted to sell on those aspects. For me that is narrative gaming, physical models, the social side of playing with someone actually with you and the modelling/painting aspect. The previous way apparently was not working so why not sell these points. Not sure about the cheaper entry value, sure you can play with a unit or two but I think that an army at a scale the game is primarily designed for will probably end up costing about the same as a decently sized WFB army.

I think they'll get around to the tactical and competitive side of things in due time but they clearly don't see these aspects as the big selling points, after all there are many better tactical video war games out there that are much cheaper. This isn't the side of the game they are using for the hard sell any more but I wouldn't worry too much they'll try sell it softly soon enough I'd have thought.

Kisanis
08-07-2015, 13:10
AoS does let me buy an dpaint shiny fantasy models just because. My brets need some help? Add some dwarves. Skaven need some hard hitters? Warriors of chaos!

It does open up the collection options, thats for sure.

I just want 8th rules on hand so I can go back for bigger games where needed.

Sent from my Z30 using Tapatalk

Spiney Norman
08-07-2015, 13:13
When what the company is doing effects the entire company, a lot. Companies that are irresponsible don't. They had an entire line of Fantasy stuff they have to work out now that takes them away from 30k and 40k stuff. You can't tell me there aren't employees thinking what else could be coming.

Oh dear, he still thinks 'Warhammer Forge' is a thing :rolleyes:

Coldhatred
08-07-2015, 14:17
The Joker, with a beard ? Now that would be crazy..As side note, I do point out, even hell had a beginning, and beginnings aren't always a good thing. Ergo, is it the beginning of something truly good, or the beginning of the complete end ? Only time will tell.

Edit: I didn't add a beard, but I did the next best thing, because it isn't about the beard, its about sending a message...and that is me..burning all those hard to find WD copies up..because I'm a simple man..who likes knives..gasoline..and fire.

Fair enough good sir. :D

I truly wonder. Is the actual wargaming segment of the market expanding? Board games and RPGs I would resoundingly say yes, but wargames? Yes, there are has been a proliferation of companies and games in the past ten years or so, but it seems from my vantage point that they are taking a portion of the status quo pie rather than attributing to a huge amount of growth.

Reinholt
08-07-2015, 14:27
I'd imagine other companies have not yet hit the peak that GW did though. I think that they looked at what made Warhammer stand out from other options such as video gaming and attempted to sell on those aspects. For me that is narrative gaming, physical models, the social side of playing with someone actually with you and the modelling/painting aspect. The previous way apparently was not working so why not sell these points. Not sure about the cheaper entry value, sure you can play with a unit or two but I think that an army at a scale the game is primarily designed for will probably end up costing about the same as a decently sized WFB army.

I think they'll get around to the tactical and competitive side of things in due time but they clearly don't see these aspects as the big selling points, after all there are many better tactical video war games out there that are much cheaper. This isn't the side of the game they are using for the hard sell any more but I wouldn't worry too much they'll try sell it softly soon enough I'd have thought.

Or maybe they just don't understand?

Never explain through complicated conspiracy or scheme what you can explain through simple stupidity.

Pacman
08-07-2015, 14:49
The wargaming market is actually booming currently

I'm not seeing it where I am. Attendance at shows isn't up, and it's a sea of grey. At my club we've got three under 20s, and only one of those is a really young lad. Everybody else is middle aged blokes or old men.

I'd love to see some actual numbers if you've got them. I just did WSS's annual survey (ow.ly/PgMol) the other day but that's only been running for two years so there's not enough data to pull out trends.

dhallnet
08-07-2015, 15:05
Or maybe they just don't understand?

Never explain through complicated conspiracy or scheme what you can explain through simple stupidity.

Or maybe they can't ? :s
Really, I mean when was the last time "they" wrote a completely new ruleset ?
Dreadfleet. We know how it went.

And before that ? Epic Armageddon in 2003 : 12 years ago. Meanwhile the whole game design team changed.

So I guess I just don't know, but sometimes I'm really asking myself if they would be able to create a new and interesting game from scratch.

ScruffMan
08-07-2015, 15:07
Or maybe they just don't understand?

Never explain through complicated conspiracy or scheme what you can explain through simple stupidity.

I think they are fully aware of what they are doing, whether it is a wise course of action remains to be seen.

frankelee
08-07-2015, 15:10
Now if only GW got a reality check from someone who knew what they were talking about! We wouldn't have Age of Sigmar.

White Dwarf selling out is nice, but drawing sweeping conclusions sort of gets to the heart of what laymen and GW don't understand. Vague data points that don't really explain to you the greater story about what's going on aren't a substitute for firm information. Just speaking as a neutral observer who has no idea what the future will bring, iTunes rankings don't mean this game will sell extremely well, or for that matter, tank completely. It's like seeing a bunch of yard signs and deciding, "well that candidate is going to win, I saw some yard signs". That's not what useful projections are built from.

Venthrac
08-07-2015, 15:27
I take umbrage with the assertion that "the Old World had to go". It was a fine setting, with plenty of unique and darkly humorous twists on common fantasy tropes. There was nothing whatsoever wrong with it in my judgement. I'll grant that's a subjective remark, but I believe it's laying the blame at the wrong party's feet to say that Warhammer Fantasy Battle had grown stale because of its setting.

If anything, I think WFB could have been improved by making better use of its very compelling setting. According to the recent Game Informer article, Games Workshop now wants to do a meta-narrative arc for Age of Sigmar, telling a large story over a long period of time that moves forward and perhaps changes the world(s) along the way. Well, why couldn't they have done this with the Old World? I daresay the End Times was the most compelling thing GW has done recently for exactly that reason.

Saying the Old World needed to go is akin to blaming the victim. The setting was simply not used to nearly its full potential. There were many stories still to be told there, and some could have been truly epic. It's true that many of the army books were copy-paste, but that's just laziness (or cost cutting) on the part of the creators. Each new edition could have been marked by some big world-shaking event that changed the factions around a bit and introduced new characters while removing old ones.

It's a shame those opportunities will never be realized in a fantasy miniatures game, but I'm glad we have games like Total War Warhammer, the various excellent editions of Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay and the many card and board games out there to continue having adventures and telling stories in the Old World, a setting I very much like for all its oddball quirks and gallows humor.

Spiney Norman
08-07-2015, 15:44
Now if only GW got a reality check from someone who knew what they were talking about! We wouldn't have Age of Sigmar.

White Dwarf selling out is nice, but drawing sweeping conclusions sort of gets to the heart of what laymen and GW don't understand. Vague data points that don't really explain to you the greater story about what's going on aren't a substitute for firm information. Just speaking as a neutral observer who has no idea what the future will bring, iTunes rankings don't mean this game will sell extremely well, or for that matter, tank completely. It's like seeing a bunch of yard signs and deciding, "well that candidate is going to win, I saw some yard signs". That's not what useful projections are built from.

That's true as far as it goes, but at least the projections of the game doing well are based on some, admittedly vague data, projections of the game failing utterly, widespread as they are, are based almost entirely on the premise "I don't like this game", I assume you can see the difference ;)

Let's just say that early indications suggest that initial reception of the Age of Sigmar has not been a complete disaster, is that 'vague' enough for you ;)

logan054
08-07-2015, 15:57
Let's just say that early indications suggest that initial reception of the Age of Sigmar has not been a complete disaster, is that 'vague' enough for you ;)

I'm going to go out on a limb and say it's probably doing as well as 8th did when it was released.

Captain Idaho
08-07-2015, 16:07
Youngsters rarely go to clubs to be fair. They normally go to the stores or a friend's house. It's the fact most clubs are for 16 and up.

***edit ***


What proof or evidence is there which points to the game selling well in projections though?

And even if initial sales are good, there's no longevity in ditching your customer base for the younger market who will diminish each year after buying the starter set.

Besides, GW probably had positive sales predictions on previous editions but failed to capitalise on them and Fantasy apparently didn't sell.

SteveW
08-07-2015, 16:11
It definitely sold out in a day, the story I heard time and again this weekend was, if you weren't at GW when it opened saturday, you couldn't get a white dwarf.
There are still stacks of them at all my local game stores. It looks like maybe 5 have sold throughout the whole city.

Reinholt
08-07-2015, 17:22
There are still stacks of them at all my local game stores. It looks like maybe 5 have sold throughout the whole city.

One understated angle is that this product may diverge wildly between the UK and US; the latter has always been more tournament focused, which partially explains the feedback loop between what PP and FFG produce and their home markets.

I don't know what GW would do if they have a regional success that absolutely will not sell across the pond on their hands; their business model has always been one size fits all and that has caused enough problems when they have products people will actually, on average, buy.

Edit: I was born in San Diego and it's a great city - where are WD even sold nowadays? I used to frequent Game Towne since my family lived near there in driving terms, but I know it closed down. C'est la vie.

MiyamatoMusashi
08-07-2015, 17:53
Let's just say that early indications suggest that initial reception of the Age of Sigmar has not been a complete disaster, is that 'vague' enough for you ;)

Not really.

Buying White Dwarf to find out about something, says nothing about whether your reception to that thing is good or not. People might have bought WD and thought "WTF?".

An unknown number of White Dwarfs selling out doesn't tell us anything either. How many do they produce? Some people have been reporting their local FLGS only gets 1 copy. Others say 20 or more. All we can really conclude is that (ignoring unlikely conspiracy theories, e.g. artificially restricting supply) this WD sold more than the previous week's issue. How many's that? No idea.

About all I'd really say we can conclude for sure is that there is much higher interest in (what people assumed to be) a new edition of Warhammer than a typical week's releases. Which, well, duh, frankly. No surprise there. What the actual reception has been like... or how one would even begin to define that... much harder.

Venthrac
08-07-2015, 17:53
One understated angle is that this product may diverge wildly between the UK and US; the latter has always been more tournament focused, which partially explains the feedback loop between what PP and FFG produce and their home markets.

I don't know what GW would do if they have a regional success that absolutely will not sell across the pond on their hands; their business model has always been one size fits all and that has caused enough problems when they have products people will actually, on average, buy.

Edit: I was born in San Diego and it's a great city - where are WD even sold nowadays? I used to frequent Game Towne since my family lived near there in driving terms, but I know it closed down. C'est la vie.

Similar experience here. I live in Washington, DC and we have lost four local Games Workshop stores in the past 2 years. Thankfully we have many independent retailers to fill in the gap, but I did used to enjoy going to the GW shop and chatting with other fans of the games and settings. It always served to fuel my enthusiasm and remind me that I'm part of a larger community, most of which is passionate and positive.

AngryAngel
08-07-2015, 18:17
And Tanks! I suggest a tactical retreat to the Imperial Guard Tactica thread. We can talk about how to counter all the new Blood angles THSS Terminators that are sure to be hitting 40k tables soon...

I'll see you there !!


I find it darkly amusing other companies are seeing a boom in sales yet are keeping tight and balanced rules to complement their models. GW just don't understand their market. Or more accurately, they think their product is something that it isn't.

Without the game, the sales would be minimal. Sooner GW accept this, the sooner they'll save themselves.

If they don't know it now, they never will, sad to say.


That's true as far as it goes, but at least the projections of the game doing well are based on some, admittedly vague data, projections of the game failing utterly, widespread as they are, are based almost entirely on the premise "I don't like this game", I assume you can see the difference ;)

Let's just say that early indications suggest that initial reception of the Age of Sigmar has not been a complete disaster, is that 'vague' enough for you ;)

What evidence ? I see anecdote, the only real hard evidence will be sale numbers months down the road and even quarterly financial reports to have proof of success or face palming failure. Though we've shared the same blood, in the same mud for the sake of balance, so I am wondering why this, completely unbalanced mess of a game has your support at all. There is a reason these rules are free and its because they are busted and weak.


Youngsters rarely go to clubs to be fair. They normally go to the stores or a friend's house. It's the fact most clubs are for 16 and up.

***edit ***


What proof or evidence is there which points to the game selling well in projections though?

And even if initial sales are good, there's no longevity in ditching your customer base for the younger market who will diminish each year after buying the starter set.

Besides, GW probably had positive sales predictions on previous editions but failed to capitalise on them and Fantasy apparently didn't sell.

I don't think there is evidence yet aside from anecdote.



Similar experience here. I live in Washington, DC and we have lost four local Games Workshop stores in the past 2 years. Thankfully we have many independent retailers to fill in the gap, but I did used to enjoy going to the GW shop and chatting with other fans of the games and settings. It always served to fuel my enthusiasm and remind me that I'm part of a larger community, most of which is passionate and positive.

We don't have a local GW here anymore, it has long since faded away, into memory, like the road warrior, though less heroic.

Rufus
08-07-2015, 18:47
WHFB wasn't for everyone, I'll admit that, but if you gave it a shot it was so rewarding... And to do away with over 20 years of rich, colorful gaming backround in favor of this? Insulting to say the least... Round bases, no more majestic blocks of soldiers... Unique models? They are Blood Angels! Pandering to the competition I say... If I wanted round bases and a skirmish game I'd play warmachine, perhaps they never considered that so many of us played WHFB because we didn't like the look of the competition. It's 40k, what a shame... And I like 40k, jokey rules? Thanks GW. Buy more models guys, these are the most original yet and don't forget the game isn't fun unless everyone has awful huge models and lost of them.

ShadowbaneII
08-07-2015, 18:57
The annoying thing is, we aren't going to be able to tell much until at least a month or so after all this - simply because of the rush to buy models before they are removed from shelves/website. (I should know, I just wasted a load sourcing the 2nd half of my partner's TK forces). From what I saw on preorder day, people were buying AoS white dwarves and that was all, no real/mass preorders of much else. Obviously that's one area and anecdotal, but still says something when I know there is a lot of support for fantasy around here.

Still Standing
08-07-2015, 19:13
I take umbrage with the assertion that "the Old World had to go". It was a fine setting, with plenty of unique and darkly humorous twists on common fantasy tropes. There was nothing whatsoever wrong with it in my judgement. I'll grant that's a subjective remark, but I believe it's laying the blame at the wrong party's feet to say that Warhammer Fantasy Battle had grown stale because of its setting.

If anything, I think WFB could have been improved by making better use of its very compelling setting. According to the recent Game Informer article, Games Workshop now wants to do a meta-narrative arc for Age of Sigmar, telling a large story over a long period of time that moves forward and perhaps changes the world(s) along the way. Well, why couldn't they have done this with the Old World? I daresay the End Times was the most compelling thing GW has done recently for exactly that reason.

Saying the Old World needed to go is akin to blaming the victim. The setting was simply not used to nearly its full potential. There were many stories still to be told there, and some could have been truly epic. It's true that many of the army books were copy-paste, but that's just laziness (or cost cutting) on the part of the creators. Each new edition could have been marked by some big world-shaking event that changed the factions around a bit and introduced new characters while removing old ones.

It's a shame those opportunities will never be realized in a fantasy miniatures game, but I'm glad we have games like Total War Warhammer, the various excellent editions of Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay and the many card and board games out there to continue having adventures and telling stories in the Old World, a setting I very much like for all its oddball quirks and gallows humor.

In my 20 year GW gaming "career" WFB have never appealed to me particularly. This is not because of the game system. I enjoyed the game system. I've built several armies (Khorne Hordes of Chaos, Empire, Slaanesh Hordes of Chaos, Tzeentch Warriors of Chaos, Tamurkhan's Nurgle Greathost, Chaos Dwarves) over the years, but always moved on. Do you know what killed it for me? The setting. It was just plain boring. It was Tolkien meets the Renaissance. There was very little original thought in there. As you can tell by my armies I gravitated towards Chaos because at least they had interesting back stories, rather than "And the Prussians Empire got attacked again by the Orcs". Who cares? Even when huge events happened (Tamurkhan, Storm of Chaos, various Dark Elf invasions of High Elves etc) nothing happened. It was pointless as nothing could change else the setting collapses.

This change is good. This gives the writers the chance to put out original background that is "living" and moves forwards.

logan054
08-07-2015, 19:20
This change is good. This gives the writers the chance to put out original background that is "living" and moves forwards.

Those are very good points. So when do you think are we actually going to see some of this original background/ideas? These sigmarines are an incredible original idea... Nothing like space marines in 40k at all!

TheFang
08-07-2015, 19:30
This change is good. This gives the writers the chance to put out original background that is "living" and moves forwards.

The Empire in things like WFRP supplements and some of the novels was a fascinating place. Much more original and based on central Europe much fresher to UK readers than most fantasy worlds. I'm far from convinced that the new Space Marines/He-Man/Power Rangers fluff mash up is a real step towards "original" background.

Hoffa
08-07-2015, 19:32
And chaos is as original as always and not something that was invented by Michael Morcook 45 years ago or so. Not to mention the nine realms of Asgaard (oh I meant winds of magic). In short all we have seen of the new fluff is highly derivative. Some sort of Michael Morcook, world of warcraft, 40k, Thor movie mash up.

TheFang
08-07-2015, 19:36
And chaos is as original as always and not something that was invented by Michael Morcook 45 years ago or so.
Moorcock's Law and Chaos were ripped by Gygax for D&D long before Warhammer. GW at least took the idea and ran with it in Realm of Chaos.

Captain Idaho
08-07-2015, 19:38
So we should commend them for being 2nd to ripping off someone else and trademarking it?

Northern_Watch
08-07-2015, 19:49
Similar experience here. I live in Washington, DC and we have lost four local Games Workshop stores in the past 2 years. Thankfully we have many independent retailers to fill in the gap, but I did used to enjoy going to the GW shop and chatting with other fans of the games and settings. It always served to fuel my enthusiasm and remind me that I'm part of a larger community, most of which is passionate and positive.

My biggest beef with GWUS is the wildly fluctuating support that Outriders (I was one) and tournaments received during the early-mid 2000s. If this is a hobby, then isn't one key element [I]growing[I] said hobby through supporting grass-roots communities? GWUS seemed too reliant on grass-roots communities selling their product without any support at all.

Northern_Watch
08-07-2015, 19:56
In my 20 year GW gaming "career" WFB have never appealed to me particularly. This is not because of the game system. I enjoyed the game system. I've built several armies (Khorne Hordes of Chaos, Empire, Slaanesh Hordes of Chaos, Tzeentch Warriors of Chaos, Tamurkhan's Nurgle Greathost, Chaos Dwarves) over the years, but always moved on. Do you know what killed it for me? The setting. It was just plain boring. It was Tolkien meets the Renaissance. There was very little original thought in there. As you can tell by my armies I gravitated towards Chaos because at least they had interesting back stories, rather than "And the Prussians Empire got attacked again by the Orcs". Who cares? Even when huge events happened (Tamurkhan, Storm of Chaos, various Dark Elf invasions of High Elves etc) nothing happened. It was pointless as nothing could change else the setting collapses.

This change is good. This gives the writers the chance to put out original background that is "living" and moves forwards.

This. Many, many times this. A fresh setting (whilst drawing on the End Times background) gives the writers the chance to develop this narrative, if only people on this forum and elsewhere would give them the time necessary to write it! As I've said elsewhere, we're critiquing a newborn for not being able to walk yet (which is easy and fun to do, but by no means fair). After all, it took Tolkien nearly 20 years to shift from The Hobbit to final publication of Return of the King.

Tupinamba
08-07-2015, 19:56
White Dwarf sold out because people want to know what's going on.

That's because Fantasy still has (or had) the potential to be immensely popular.

People who bought the White Dwarf have now found out what Age of Sigmar is, and how much of a botch job they've made of it. And GW have made that botch job because they'd arbitrarily decided that Fantasy as it was could not be popular.

WD selling out means nothing - nothing - for how good AoS is, nor how successful or popular it is going to be.

I mean, WD sold out because people want to know what's going on. Just like we're here talking about it because we want to know what's going on. But 2/3rds of the people here say they're not going to play it. But they're talking about it so it must be good! ...right...?

Exactly. Interpreting the current curiosity/apprehension as a sign of the sucess of GWs strategy is quite disputable.

Also, I´d go so far and predict that the first months from now will see an increase in sales, as the community was almost paralysed and virtually nobody was buying anything. Now the 1/4 of the community that didn´t like WHFB and wanted a skirmish game will make some purchases and, compared to the abysmal base of the last months, it´ll look as if AoS had "revitalized" fantasy and we´ll hear the same kind of pseudo business reasoning being thrown around to justify GW´s decisions. Never mind a comparison with the numbers from say, 4-5 years ago, when WHFB was still a big thing and before the real causes of its decline became so preeminent that we came to the current situation. And never mind their actual business record of yearlong diminishing numbers in market share, revenue, player base and miniatures based profits (as now a big chunk of their money comes from milking the supposedly unappealing classic warhammer and 40k IP with computer and board games).

But these results were the fault of Warhammer Fantay, after all, not of GW´s policies, right? :rolleyes:

Ayin
08-07-2015, 19:58
The Empire in things like WFRP supplements and some of the novels was a fascinating place. Much more original and based on central Europe much fresher to UK readers than most fantasy worlds. I'm far from convinced that the new Space Marines/He-Man/Power Rangers fluff mash up is a real step towards "original" background.

The Empire has always been, to me, one of the most original places in Fantasy, as I've never seen another setting that was similar.

Unfortunately, even after 8th significantly 'grim-darked' it up, it was still based on a historical time period and, as such, though it might be a very original idea, was not 'unique' enough for GW to solidly control as a legal IP.

Ayin
08-07-2015, 20:01
This. Many, many times this. A fresh setting (whilst drawing on the End Times background) gives the writers the chance to develop this narrative, if only people on this forum and elsewhere would give them the time necessary to write it! As I've said elsewhere, we're critiquing a newborn for not being able to walk yet (which is easy and fun to do, but by no means fair). After all, it took Tolkien nearly 20 years to shift from The Hobbit to final publication of Return of the King.

Of course the problem with this would be that, were the community to adopt a neutral, 'wait and see' outlook to allow GW to develope it's new world before making judgements on it, the entire game would collapse due to lack of sales.

In reality, the success of this game line is just as reliant on people who make judgements without knowing much of anything beyond what is available now plus 'is GW so = good'.

TheFang
08-07-2015, 20:10
After all, it took Tolkien nearly 20 years to shift from The Hobbit to final publication of Return of the King.

The Hobbit is several steps above "Sigmarines! Ho!"

Still Standing
08-07-2015, 20:11
The Hobbit is several steps above "Sigmarines! Ho!"

Not really, a literary masterpiece it may well be, but it's a terribly boring read.

Nightfall Shimmer
08-07-2015, 20:37
Everything Tolkien wrote was boring. <-- My opinion only, your may vary. The movies (Not seen any of the Hobbit ones though) made it enjoyable, if a bit weird in places.

As to the Age of Sigmar Fluff... I do believe that the first parts of the new Lore are being released in a big hardbound book week after next.

TheFang
08-07-2015, 20:47
Not really, a literary masterpiece it may well be, but it's a terribly boring read.

I'm sure you're looking forward to the first "Age of Sigmar" novelisation which will knock old JRR back to the Shire.:D

Shandor
08-07-2015, 21:13
Well the thing is.. GW just took away my Hobby. (As i already sayd i was playing WHF mostly in the Store and i cant anymore.)
And after they forbid to play my Hobby they want me to wait and see the next view month and want me to believe it will be better maybe.

How the hell should that work?

GW: "Ok you did spend thousands of € for our Products and now forget it and get the new **** or leave"
ME: "But i dont like the new stuff? Its just a bad joke, no fun after 4 games, boring and simply not working!?!"
GW:"It might be better.. maybe.. in some month.. or not.. well just shuddup and buy the new stuff or leave now!"
Me: "WTF?"

Well yeah it might be a New Born Baby and cant walk already yadda yadda and all that.. but its an unfinished produnct and its on the market? Did EA buy GW and i missed it? When did they start to work on AoS? 2 Weeks ago? How about to Finish something first and THEN release it?
I dont mind its only some new models in that starter box. thats fine.. but everythign else?

Northern_Watch
08-07-2015, 21:19
They're not forbidding you to participate in your hobby: can you honestly say you have zero unpainted miniatures? Also, this:

Kia: "Ok you did spend thousands of € for our car. We now make a new car: either forget your earlier investment and get the new car or leave"
ME: "But I don't like the new car! It's just a bad joke, no fun to drive, boring and simply doesn't work!"
Kia:"It might be better.. maybe.. in some month.. or not.. well just shuddup and buy the new car or leave now!"
Me: "Let me go down the road to Ford/Chevrolet/Toyota..."

Venthrac
08-07-2015, 21:23
We'll have to respectfully disagree on the setting not being original. I found it to be a very clever, dark parody of Tolkein's high fantasy tropes. I love the idea of Chaos as this weird energy sort of permeating the world, imprinted upon by the weakness of man and manifesting itself as our worst nightmares made flesh. I love how Dwarf Slayers are these dwarfs so wracked with guilt over the loss of their honor that they dye their mohawks fiery orange and wander off in search of a worthy death. I like the steampunk-infused Terry Gilliam-esque world of the Empire, with its Germanic naming conventions, huge mustaches, impossibly top-heavy arhcitecture and people riding on gryphons. I love the history of the elves in this world, how the Sundering fractured them and what happened with Morathu, Widowmaker and Malekith.

There's an awful lot in WFB that has nothing to do with Tolkein. It maybe starts with his work, but it goes all kinds of interesting directions from there. I'm sure a lot of players took a cursory glance at it and decided it was more generic fantasy, but I think those who took a deeper look, and really studied the lore and the fiction, found something much more interesting beneath the surface.

Shandor
08-07-2015, 21:35
They're not forbidding you to participate in your hobby: can you honestly say you have zero unpainted miniatures? Also, this:

Kia: "Ok you did spend thousands of € for our car. We now make a new car: either forget your earlier investment and get the new car or leave"
ME: "But I don't like the new car! It's just a bad joke, no fun to drive, boring and simply doesn't work!"
Kia:"It might be better.. maybe.. in some month.. or not.. well just shuddup and buy the new car or leave now!"
Me: "Let me go down the road to Ford/Chevrolet/Toyota..."

Yeah like i did drive inside the Car shop for 5 Years... you somehow missed the point..
It would make sense if they would sell cars you could only drive inside thier Building :)
Statement from a GW-store Manager "Our Miniatures are so expensive because yo can always play, paint and buidl your Miniatures in the shop"

Well now im now allowed to play with my miniatures in the shop anymore since its not allowed to play the 8th Edition.

Urgat
08-07-2015, 21:49
A sure thing is that it's getting people talking. Been a while since the entire first page of this forum has been filled with new topics that aren't more than a couple days old :p

lbecks
08-07-2015, 22:48
The models in the starter set are nice and the price tag is good, but looking at the prices for next week's models blunts the enthusiasm.

Still Standing
08-07-2015, 23:23
There's an awful lot in WFB that has nothing to do with Tolkein. It maybe starts with his work, but it goes all kinds of interesting directions from there. I'm sure a lot of players took a cursory glance at it and decided it was more generic fantasy, but I think those who took a deeper look, and really studied the lore and the fiction, found something much more interesting beneath the surface.

I've been looking for 20 years. My favourite GW novel is the Konrad Saga about the Empire boy who grows up to be a Chaos Warrior... And back again. Sat on my shelf are the Realms of Chaos books, Liber Chaotica, the Storm of Chaos book. Ive looked deeper under the surface than most, and there was still nothing there.

daftpunkevo
09-07-2015, 16:19
That should be interesting. Even more interesting is how many they will sell in 3 months time, compared to 40K and how many starter boxes WFB sold.

so as much as i hate it... they sold out in 2 days :(

frankelee
09-07-2015, 17:39
That's true as far as it goes, but at least the projections of the game doing well are based on some, admittedly vague data, projections of the game failing utterly, widespread as they are, are based almost entirely on the premise "I don't like this game", I assume you can see the difference ;)

Let's just say that early indications suggest that initial reception of the Age of Sigmar has not been a complete disaster, is that 'vague' enough for you ;)

It's very fair to say this game won't have a disastrous release. They still have great looking sculpts, it's still an exciting new product. That's entirely reasonable. I guess the real test will be getting long term play and army building from customers who go in for AoS. Which is what GW requires nowadays at their size, to be happy.

heavyheart
09-07-2015, 18:07
Fair enough, conversely my own anecdote runs somewhat differently, we had four tables running ApS games at our club tonight, the local indy store in town has taken 10 pre-orders for the starter set (of which I account for 50% of one of them). On the flip side, no-one even owns Star Wars armada due to the high cost of the starter game compared to what you get for it.

But armada is £10 cheaper and contains enough models to do 200 point games and the standard size is 300, It's a totally different scale where one medium sized ship like the victory SD is worth a third of your list.

It cost me less to get up to 400 points of armada than it does for someone to buy 50 sigmarines I know that for sure.

GrandmasterWang
09-07-2015, 22:25
We'll have to respectfully disagree on the setting not being original. I found it to be a very clever, dark parody of Tolkein's high fantasy tropes. I love the idea of Chaos as this weird energy sort of permeating the world, imprinted upon by the weakness of man and manifesting itself as our worst nightmares made flesh. I love how Dwarf Slayers are these dwarfs so wracked with guilt over the loss of their honor that they dye their mohawks fiery orange and wander off in search of a worthy death. I like the steampunk-infused Terry Gilliam-esque world of the Empire, with its Germanic naming conventions, huge mustaches, impossibly top-heavy arhcitecture and people riding on gryphons. I love the history of the elves in this world, how the Sundering fractured them and what happened with Morathu, Widowmaker and Malekith.

There's an awful lot in WFB that has nothing to do with Tolkein. It maybe starts with his work, but it goes all kinds of interesting directions from there. I'm sure a lot of players took a cursory glance at it and decided it was more generic fantasy, but I think those who took a deeper look, and really studied the lore and the fiction, found something much more interesting beneath the surface.

Great post!

The Warhammer Fantasy world is my favorite fantasy setting bar none.

Big hat Chaos Dwarfs :)

There is a reason their hats are so big! (Nagash copied them)

The only race so ruthlessly industrial that they view Daemons... the very stuff of nightmares. .... as a mere resource to exploit :)

...and Skaven... a race which is basically a dark mirror to ours grown powerful off our waste. .... outnumbering us but still viewed by the general populace as little more than an old wives tale.



Ah I could go on and on.

I saw the Konrad novels mentioned. .. they were the first Warhammer Fantasy literature I ever read... :) good times.

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk

Tzar Boris
10-07-2015, 00:57
The Empire has always been, to me, one of the most original places in Fantasy, as I've never seen another setting that was similar.

Unfortunately, even after 8th significantly 'grim-darked' it up, it was still based on a historical time period and, as such, though it might be a very original idea, was not 'unique' enough for GW to solidly control as a legal IP.

And this is precisely the problem with Sigmarine Fantasy.

The Empire/Old World was based loosely on Europe circa 15th century, almost every fantasy race written about in popular was represented, "evil" had many facets and not just standard villains. You could recreate most any Fantasy novel fight in its framework. You could customise a non sucky hero based on your won fiction or a favourite character. You and a friend could happily choose two troop heavy Empire armies and fight with a decent historical battle (without worrying about delving into new unfamiliar rules). The world was your lobster, and plenty had hidden mist shrouded areas you could create your own wee sagas.

As far as I can see, and I suspect we'll see come from AOS, is the further IP-ification of this glorious generic melting pot. It took until, I think, The Two Towers game, for GW to realise the true worth of big IP. Unfortunately it hadn't restricted itself or its players enough to a simple manageable limited scope world, which IP laws kinda dictate. You saw it with 7th ed codexes and 40K when highly customisable armies and generic heroes began to be shoved out in favour of named heroes and GW trademarked beastnames. AOS is a huge gamble as it demanded an original IP that people would become invested in. The bad move was of course using the good will Warhammer has built over 30 years and crushed it. Gotrek, dead. Grombrindal, dead. Luthor Huss, dead.

And they're going to be shoehorning some form of flaming dwarves, lovey dovey tree hugging factionless Exodite Eldar, gone will be the Eastern European Von Carsteins and there'll be some new undead ubermensch, Orcs and goblins will become some bastard offspring of our greenskin friends and Ulric knows what. And all set where? The fuzzy heavens of our imaginations? The seething winds of magic? As you despoil the verdant green pastures of each battlefield anew with the blood of your enemy, there'll always be the point in your mind asking why you're even bothering. There's no wenches in the taverns, no beggars on the streets, no need for madness and mischief and the fear of dark gods, because we see them and they can be trapped in boxes. This is their land and they're in danger from a dude from the mean streets of Reikdorf and his warriors of the mighty personality vacuum. Lands so devoid of joy no-one can even get their jollies round the back of the woods with a sexy she-daemon.

Gone, I fear, is the moustache measuring, cross dressing, talking to your horse Warhammer. That is why those jokes got made, it was showing why the jokes have been so spartan recently, they don't belong anymore. I can't see Shiny Muscle-chest McGoldiepants making dodgy jokes down the pub in the high fantasism of "generic mists of magic". The most these avatars of dull can maybe muster is a monotone "For the Emprah! You will be assimilated" - These guys in WFRP would be the worst. And your Khornate "let's just precede every word with Blood, eh?" (oh aye, and "gore" too, it shows we're being creative)

There's a reason Skaven appear to be surviving - they HAD an IP-able background. They weren't just "generic x,y,z" - so they get a pass. If they survive under that name I'll be at least slightly heartened, due to its ancient etymology, they'll still at least be one joke left in there.

Grimnir rest ye, Snorri Nosebiter. We hardly knew ye.

Sniff.

Here's an interesting question though. Whilst cannibalising the past, and Malals impending return, you reckon the Bloodletters will welcome the return of their old master?

sixfthoneybadger
10-07-2015, 01:09
GW would of been better of getting the license to market a Game of Thrones tabletop mass fantasy battle game. This AoS just isn't fun or interesting. It has no draw. No likable characters like Bruner the bounty hunter, WitchHunters, Skarsnik, Bugman, or the White Dwarf, Colorful interesting characters!!!

MagicAngle
10-07-2015, 01:55
and Malals impending return

Have I missed something? Is that actually going to happen?

Funnily enough, my gaming group is playing the EndTimes with the twist that the whole thing is actually orchestrated by Malal...

Also, Boris, - great breakdown of the issue with the background of AoS. I've been trying to work out why it felt sorta lightweight, and I think you nailed it.

Ayin
10-07-2015, 05:42
Have I missed something? Is that actually going to happen?

No.

Every once in awhile someone mentions it as something that could be done (either in spite of or ignorant to the reasons it won't be) and then it gets picked up a few more times in the thread as a possibility.

It's not happening.

Philhelm
10-07-2015, 05:52
Stuff

I agree 100%. Sigmaron and the Sigmarites aren't nearly as interesting as a Marienberg dock, a Middenheim sewer, a Stirland farmstead, or an Altdorf tavern.


Here's an interesting question though. Whilst cannibalising the past, and Malals impending return, you reckon the Bloodletters will welcome the return of their old master?

What? Malal might return?

Urgat
10-07-2015, 06:57
GW would of been better of getting the license to market a Game of Thrones tabletop mass fantasy battle game.

A dozen identical human factions with three or four different units each, a couple dragons thrown in one of them, a couple giants in the other, and a zombie army with pretty much nothing in it but zombies.
Don't know about other people, but that doesn't sound very exciting to me, like, at all.

Razios
10-07-2015, 07:05
And this is precisely the problem with Sigmarine Fantasy.

The Empire/Old World was based loosely on Europe circa 15th century, almost every fantasy race written about in popular was represented, "evil" had many facets and not just standard villains. You could recreate most any Fantasy novel fight in its framework. You could customise a non sucky hero based on your won fiction or a favourite character. You and a friend could happily choose two troop heavy Empire armies and fight with a decent historical battle (without worrying about delving into new unfamiliar rules). The world was your lobster, and plenty had hidden mist shrouded areas you could create your own wee sagas.

Yeah, this is fine and dandy...but you kind forget something: that happen AFTER years of diferent games and ruleset, from most part the empire was just a place with german looking people that chaos,orcs,beastman,whatever the warp spawn try to whreck each time, also Evil maybe have many face it but almost all of them where standar and very cliche, at least WH40K is getting more chararter


AOS is a huge gamble as it demanded an original IP that people would become invested in. The bad move was of course using the good will Warhammer has built over 30 years and crushed it. Gotrek, dead. Grombrindal, dead. Luthor Huss, dead.


Becuase they reach the point in where the timeline CANT advance at all without calling ******** to the whole "end of times" after all is like old world of darkness: where is the damn point of playing a game with a end of the world...without the damn end of the world?, this is a sendoff and move around, but GW corned itself from the first codex since it put a end to everything.


And they're going to be shoehorning some form of flaming dwarves, lovey dovey tree hugging factionless Exodite Eldar, gone will be the Eastern European Von Carsteins and there'll be some new undead ubermensch, Orcs and goblins will become some bastard offspring of our greenskin friends and Ulric knows what. And all set where? The fuzzy heavens of our imaginations? The seething winds of magic? As you despoil the verdant green pastures of each battlefield anew with the blood of your enemy, there'll always be the point in your mind asking why you're even bothering. There's no wenches in the taverns, no beggars on the streets, no need for madness and mischief and the fear of dark gods, because we see them and they can be trapped in boxes. This is their land and they're in danger from a dude from the mean streets of Reikdorf and his warriors of the mighty personality vacuum. Lands so devoid of joy no-one can even get their jollies round the back of the woods with a sexy she-daemon.


And again...where was the point of the old world when everything was doom to fail? the only reason it never happen before is because GW love is dear status quo until it become unreachable to have it, the battle against chaos was one of how many damage you can made before evertyhing got shallow up.

Also again, for most the setting was just a europe knock off where all the army wreck themselves, it easy to write about suck beloved setting after many time(even with its flaws...that aparenly dont exist anymore) let see what age of sigmar can brought

Grimnir rest ye, Snorri Nosebiter. We hardly knew ye.[/QUOTE]

Dont worry, its not like anybody cared about grimnir in the first damn place

Spell_of_Destruction
10-07-2015, 07:23
Regarding frustration. I want to emphasise that I am not trying to defend Games Workshop, just point out a few obvious truths. The most important one is this. If you really want your anger to register, then vote with your wallet. I have seen quite a few gamers react with rage to the new game, then say they going to buy a couple of box sets to use in KOW. If you do this then you are doing exactly what Games Workshop wants. They (meaning the corporate entity) really don't care what you do with you models after you buy, they already have your money.

I think that part of the issue here is that gamers expect more than plastic, paint and paper when they hand over their hard earned cash. They expect GW to support its games and therefore support the community.

It's interesting actually. Traditionally, once GW has sold you a set of rules, an army book and an army you have really purchased everything you need to play the game. All you need to do is find someone else to play against. The rules for all past editions are available on ebay if you don't own them already. There's obviously nothing stopping you from playing older editions.

My point isn't "well just carry on playing 8th if you don't like AoS". I realise that's a tired argument. The question is that once GW has released a complete game, is it obligated to continue to support that game? Clearly it isn't, but most people act as though it is. That's because we feel GW's decisions impact upon our local gaming scene and we get pushed along with the herd. Sure, you can continue to play 8th but what if no one else in your local meta wants to do that?

Perhaps that is the difficult truth. GW sells miniatures and associated hobby products. It doesn't sell an after sales service. It isn't obligated to provide you with a gaming group and opponents that you like to play against.

Ayin
10-07-2015, 07:54
Perhaps that is the difficult truth. GW sells miniatures and associated hobby products. It doesn't sell an after sales service. It isn't obligated to provide you with a gaming group and opponents that you like to play against.

As they say, they are a Model company, not a game company.

This system is self defeating however. Any company working in a niche market needs to work at expanding and supporting their customer base if they're going to continue to thrive. GW could go back and forth every sic months releasing Dreadfleet/Assassin..orium(?)/Space Hulk/ect., and other similar games that they will not further support and not attempt to foster a strong community, but...well, it's late, so I'm just gonna say it's a losing strategy.

Really, GW's system of withdrawing entirely from the community is a very ...interesting one. Anyone with experience in marketing is really left scratching their head at GW, but not because of AoS specifically.

Kotrag
10-07-2015, 08:16
A neckbeard is a derogatory term for a stereotypical gamer. It refers to a man that has a beard on his neck and is meant as an insult referring to poor personal hygiene.

For God's sake. A neckbeard is simply someone who posts on /tg/. That's it. Whatever new meaning it's taken on in the past few months/years is down some fa/tg/uy using the term outside 4Chan and people misunderstanding the term. Much like a monkey attempting to imitate a human he saw writing by banging twigs onto a flat rock.

Kotrag
10-07-2015, 09:26
As for this skub-tastic debate on setting - I hated all parts of the Old World that were not Norsca. I just want it back, or some facsimile of it.

Kotrag
10-07-2015, 10:18
I'm sure you're looking forward to the first "Age of Sigmar" novelisation which will knock old JRR back to the Shire.:D

While there's no comparison between Tolkien and the increasingly ****** fantasy fiction being thrown out nowadays, I have read the Gates of Azyr extract and it's not bad by any means.

The_Real_Chris
10-07-2015, 10:29
The question is that once GW has released a complete game, is it obligated to continue to support that game? Clearly it isn't, but most people act as though it is.

It is if it wants my repeat custom...

If I have spent a load of cash on one of their product lines, then it is pulled, the complete rules become illegal to get hold of (downloads no longer avalible) and likewise incomplete model lines can't be completed, I am far less likely to buy into their next product line...

scruffyryan
10-07-2015, 10:30
As they say, they are a Model company, not a game company.


And from the moment they took that stance their market share began to shrink in favor of game companies.

heavyheart
10-07-2015, 10:47
And from the moment they took that stance their market share began to shrink in favor of game companies.

Yeah people fled into the arms of games companies, I'm genuinely boggled by the notion that GW's poor rules are acceptable because the models are nice.

duffybear1988
10-07-2015, 10:53
Let's not forget, for a company that claims they are a model company and not a games company, they sure have produced a lot of games recently...

Space Hulk board game, Dreadfleet, 40k, Fantasy, Lotr/Hobbit, the assassins board game. It's really hard to accept that a company doesn't do games when it in fact just released a board game a few months ago.

Kegslayer
10-07-2015, 10:55
Anyone seen the video where some total ***** sets fire to his army as he doesn't like AoS

The_Real_Chris
10-07-2015, 10:55
Yes it is baffling. Maybe the design studio cost £ millions a year more than the shareholders (Kirby) wanted. maybe their experience back then was the rules are getting worse, so what people are still buying (think the evolution of 40k post second edition). You can read the reminiscences of Priestly et al on various sites now. Certainly the design team became more intergrated with sales and direction. Would it be a better company today if they had continued to churn out better quality rules and cost the company more in salaries? If they hadn't realised the staff with skills to set up competitors?

Tae
10-07-2015, 11:01
Anyone seen the video where some total ***** sets fire to his army as he doesn't like AoS

You mean this one http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/141508-Hothead-Gamer-Burns-Warhammer-Fantasy-Army-Over-New-Age-of-Sigmar-Rules

Kegslayer
10-07-2015, 11:14
I that one

EagleWarrior
10-07-2015, 11:31
Watching those models burn was horrible. :cries:

Tae
10-07-2015, 11:34
I must admit I did physically laugh out loud when those Witch Elves started to look like synchronised swimmers diving into the pool

Shandor
10-07-2015, 11:37
Well i would never do this but he really made his point.

Kegslayer
10-07-2015, 11:51
If his point was to show how stupid some people are about plastic toys then yes his point was proved

EagleWarrior
10-07-2015, 12:12
GW doesn't care. He still paid.

Kisanis
10-07-2015, 12:53
Yea..... he's an idiot. Ebay dude.

GW towing the "model company" line would work if they said "games company second"

But they don't, and its just frustrating because people buy the models for their games.

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heavyheart
10-07-2015, 12:57
Watching those models burn was horrible. :cries:

I found it kinda cathartic.

MiyamatoMusashi
10-07-2015, 13:08
GW doesn't care. He still paid.

This.


Yea..... he's an idiot. Ebay dude.

And this.

-DE-
10-07-2015, 13:17
Well, he wanted to make a statement and had every right to do so. Just as he may do with his property whatever he feels like, be it sell, bin, or set it on fire, regardless of what Internet strangers think of it.

Anyhow, I had a lot of fun watching it burn, if for the sake of seeing how GW plastic reacts to high temperature (those ballet witches were ace!).

Tupinamba
10-07-2015, 16:13
Well i would never do this but he really made his point.

Agree. Plus, he obviously has the money and doesn´t care about the cash he could get from e-bay.

However, I think that using the minis with KOW, Warthrone etc. would have been a better statement. And actually help building up strong competition for GW. But that wouldn´t have had the public impact the burning had, so I understand him.

Treadhead_1st
10-07-2015, 17:20
Yea..... he's an idiot. Ebay dude.

Whilst I agree that it was a dumb thing to do, there is a hint of logic behind his actions. By destroying the models rather than putting them on Ebay he is preventing them from ending up in the hands of someone playing a GW game. GW may not profit from the sales of those models to the player that purchases Ebay models, but said player will still be "advertising" whenever they play. It is a double-whammy for GW if people are interested in picking up the system, see it is expensive, and there is not a large second-hand market to go from starter sets to the larger game. One bloke won't make a difference, but he is doing more "harm" to the company by destroying them than selling them - which I take it was his aim given he was burning his army, the monster.

Unless this is all a clever ploy and GW wants everyone to destroy/sell their existing armies, then they reveal a new mass-battle game with decent rules that the vets love, but no longer have an army for? sarcasm

Mateobard
10-07-2015, 17:26
I sort of think up his choice was in keeping with his position on AoS. I'm sure it was cathartic for him. I love my armies too much to trash them, but I felt his pain.

Cèsar de Quart
10-07-2015, 17:27
Sigmaron? Is that the whole stretch of their imagination, or is the whole IP thing filling their brains with foam and rubble?

Mr_Foulscumm
10-07-2015, 17:55
You mean this one http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/141508-Hothead-Gamer-Burns-Warhammer-Fantasy-Army-Over-New-Age-of-Sigmar-Rules

What an idiot. But I guess everyone has the right to be that dumb.

Teurastaja
10-07-2015, 21:57
I'd never do that to any of my armies but I support his decision.

Corax
10-07-2015, 22:13
I kind of admire his willingness to put his money where his mouth is and actually destroy his army if he hates the situation that much. It's his property, he can do what he likes with it. I saw a video not long a ago of a guy destroying his Jeep because it was such a lemon and he wanted to make a point, so it's not like this is a unique response.

Malagor
10-07-2015, 22:20
A shame but I respect him for doing so.

frankelee
10-07-2015, 22:22
The guy kind of seems like a dumb tool, who doesn't really get how life works all that well. It seems even dumber trying to defend him, though, with non sequiturs about property rights. Kind of having the situation fly right over your head if that's your first response.

scruffyryan
11-07-2015, 01:10
Eh, yknow Dealing with ebay and putting it up and hoping it sells and shipping it off can be more effort than people want to put into things. If i decide to ditch my GW stuff and I cant sell locally to someone who will meet me at a local shop hand me cash andtake the models I'll probably dumpster them to make room for stuff i'm interested in.

AngryAngel
11-07-2015, 02:31
For God's sake. A neckbeard is simply someone who posts on /tg/. That's it. Whatever new meaning it's taken on in the past few months/years is down some fa/tg/uy using the term outside 4Chan and people misunderstanding the term. Much like a monkey attempting to imitate a human he saw writing by banging twigs onto a flat rock.

Thanks for the heads up, the term is less dumb then I thought, perhaps then we'll see it less, unless they wish to keep banging sticks on flat rocks, that is.



Anyone seen the video where some total ***** sets fire to his army as he doesn't like AoS

Honestly, he's able to do what he wants with his stuff, I admire the purity of his rage.


If his point was to show how stupid some people are about plastic toys then yes his point was proved

Yet again, because you don't get upset over things he does, doesn't mean he has less right to be angry then you, or needs anyones permission to show his displeasure. His point was simply, he hates the new system, is mad at the company, so wanted to put his money where his mouth is. I respect his choices, helps him be a simple man, who takes pleasure in simple things, like fire.



GW doesn't care. He still paid.

GW should care, as he's showing just how pissed they've made some people, and he is out as a customer most likely for good, that isn't good for a company. Only so many people in the world, if they try and exist on the turn and burn concept where people get a thing or two then toss it aside, they'll soon run out of consistent customers which is a poor plan for the long term.


Yea..... he's an idiot. Ebay dude.

GW towing the "model company" line would work if they said "games company second"

But they don't, and its just frustrating because people buy the models for their games.

Sent from my Z30 using Tapatalk

Ebay the models for a dead game ? It is possible he'd get next to nothing for them and all it would be doing is giving an army to someone on the cheap for much annoyance and effort, honestly I'd rather just watch it all burn too, but then, I like to watch the world burn, so...



Well, he wanted to make a statement and had every right to do so. Just as he may do with his property whatever he feels like, be it sell, bin, or set it on fire, regardless of what Internet strangers think of it.

Anyhow, I had a lot of fun watching it burn, if for the sake of seeing how GW plastic reacts to high temperature (those ballet witches were ace!).

Agree


The guy kind of seems like a dumb tool, who doesn't really get how life works all that well. It seems even dumber trying to defend him, though, with non sequiturs about property rights. Kind of having the situation fly right over your head if that's your first response.

I don't know, your response strikes me a little on the dim side itself. Disagree all you want but honestly, at least he chose to take a stand. We all choose our own battles and our own fights, most don't feel strongly enough about anything to make a scene, and showing any strong emotion, especially negative is generally frowned upon these days, but bear with me. GW said, they'd never squat armies again, this is just a giant squat, just not an instant squat to the armies, they will phase out all your models eventually. They want you to buy all the new models, period. They lied, and squatted many many models, and a whole game system that some put a lot of time and effort into, some even put a lot of heart into the hobby.

Most people understand why they did this change, doesn't make it easier to swallow. Though I guess its always just easier to berate people who make a scene, even if perhaps a scene is exactly what should be made.

itcamefromthedeep
11-07-2015, 04:42
The guy who burned his minis hadn't even painted most of them.

What a filthy casual. ;)

---

They could have ended the Old World and without doing this. Having Warhammer take a foray into the Realm of Chaos where small bands of intrepid heroes wander some newly minted Chaos Wastes, encountering relics of the past and all kinds of unlikely opponents in their quest for survival/glory/retribution/meaning could make for some really compelling stories. Age of Sigmar could have been the story of how the Chaos Wastes were pushed back by some unlikely heroes and the Warhammer World restored, but in as a very different place.

They had the opportunity. And in my estimation they squandered it on the story front.

Losing Command
11-07-2015, 05:13
It also suddenly hit me that while the rules of AoS might stay 'free', that might not mean they will remain easily accessable. The rules for the Sigmarines and khorne dudes can only be found within the starter set, warscrolls are going to be included in the box when you bought the models, and the first scenario book also appears to have additional warscrolls within it.
Now here's the thing : why would GW ever put those warscrolls on their site as a free PDF ? If you want to play with certain models, you have to buy them and the rules are already in the box so from their perspective there is absolutely no need to also put those rules on their site for free.
Right now because they felt like they had to provide rules for all the older armies in an effort to not make every fantasy player still out there (even more) angry, but all models of the armies that will stay are (rumoured) going to be replaced and look different from how they look now. It seems very likely to me that, once the majority of the models are replaced with their (slightly adjusted ?) warscrolls included in the box, the PDF's are going to dissapear from the site except probably for the main rules.
Meaning that in the grim darkness of the near future, if you want to know the rules of a unit/model, you will have to buy that unit/model with the warscroll included in the box 'for free'
(Or make a copy of the warscroll from a friend, but I have my doubts you'll be allowed to use that in GW stores)

Teurastaja
11-07-2015, 05:41
GW can't really raise prices of miniatures forever, so they changed tactic and started cutting cost of game design. This "game" shows what they are aiming for. And yet people still defend it as something good and progressive. We are being ****** here and it's plain to see.

SteveW
11-07-2015, 06:46
so they changed tactic and started cutting cost of game design.

Well that's obviously not true. What is more expensive to produce, a new game, or keep selling the one you already have out? They already had a game out dude, it's not cheaper to make a new one.

Teurastaja
11-07-2015, 06:58
Well that's obviously not true. What is more expensive to produce, a new game, or keep selling the one you already have out? They already had a game out dude, it's not cheaper to make a new one.

WFB was a game. Aos with 4 pages of free, lackluster rules is not a game. It's much cheaper to put together something like that and say 'figure it out for yourself' than, for example, playtest and release rulebook for 9th edition. We used to pay premium prices for whole experience - nice miniatures and good game. Now they cut that in half (well, maybe even more when I look at Sigmarines, but that's my personal taste).

Buddy Bear
11-07-2015, 07:38
Well that's obviously not true. What is more expensive to produce, a new game, or keep selling the one you already have out? They already had a game out dude, it's not cheaper to make a new one.

How expensive was that, really? I could probably write a better rules set during my lunch break.

Still Standing
11-07-2015, 09:39
How expensive was that, really? I could probably write a better rules set during my lunch break.

Multiple sculptors for several years. Not cheap at all.

Buddy Bear
11-07-2015, 09:50
An expense they would have paid, anyway, as they still would've continued producing new models in that time.

Kaptajn_Congoboy
11-07-2015, 10:01
Multiple sculptors for several years. Not cheap at all.

They use their sculptors as game designers? That explains a lot. All those fumes...

GrandmasterWang
11-07-2015, 11:06
Well i would never do this but he really made his point.

The point being that he is a sad fool with emotional issues having a temper tantrum?

I enjoyed watching that video... I like fire. Also the melting models were funny. I guess they all failed their ward save ;)

That said. .. it's chumps like this guy that paint wargamers in a negative light.

If the media do another 'documentary' on wargaming and wargamers I can definitely see them using that video clip to pile scorn and ridicule upon wargamers......as if he somehow represents the community.

The hobbyist in me has nothing but pity for him..... poor bloke.

Him disabling comments on his youtube video just makes him seem even more pathetic.

Thankfully most wargamers are actually pretty normal people. It's just losers like that guy who make the community at large look bad.

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