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Philhelm
07-07-2015, 20:22
While Games Workshop is a miniatures company and not a gaming company (:wtf:), it seems intuitive to me that the best way to sell models would be to have multiple gaming systems that share the same models. If a player does not like or cannot afford a massed battle game, there could be a skirmish game (Age of Sigmar), or a game focusing on a small war band (Mordheim), or even a dungeon crawler (Warhammer Quest). Games Workshop already did this to some extent, but the mistake of some of the Specialist Games is that they were supported with their own line of miniatures (Warhammer Quest to a much lesser extent) which to some degree would compete with their already established range, and cost additional money for model development, storage, and shelf space, etc.

The bottom line is that there needs to be a game to entice people to purchase their miniatures. A collector may purchase, say, Queek Headtaker, because he likes the model, and he may even purchase a box of Skaven Clanrats for the same reason, but most people are not going to purchase several boxes of Skaven Clanrats if there is not a game that will put them to use. The problem that we are witnessing with Age of Sigmar is that people may not want to play their singularly supported fantasy game, and therefore Games Workshop will sell fewer models. With multiple game systems supported, Games Workshop would be able to have a wider range of target customers who may all purchase from the same range of models.

While the Stormcast are somewhat controversial and probably a poor example, I would imagine that Games Workshop would sell more of them if they could be used in Warhammer 8th edition or other hypothetical games. There are surely people who like the models but not the Age of Simgar rules, who will pass on purchasing the models since they are not bona fide "collectors."

Panzeh
07-07-2015, 20:24
Oh, I agree, Fantasy definitely needed to either be a game that scaled down better or they needed to make a Mordheim that actually let you use the whole of the range(instead of the limited settings of GW's skirmish games). Age of Sigmar is not a good skirmish game in any sense. It's a game that does nothing well.

Noodle!
07-07-2015, 20:29
See, this is what I don't get either. If AoS had been released alongside WHFB there'd been no worries. In fact it would've been a great intro.

Reaper85
07-07-2015, 20:32
because it all requires a time and effort to go into the rules for these "mini-games" You need writers, editors, testers, artists and it still needs to be profitable at the end of the day. I see what you mean, and i get it. but GW will think "is it worth it" spending a lot of time on something thats a supplement to the main game they are wanting to market (their big moneymakers). Despite having "interchangeable" models, somebody may crunch numbers and believe its not worth it. I have no idea if theirs marketing data available for it all, but the way they dropped bloodbowl and others like hot potatos...

Cheers

Bloodknight
07-07-2015, 20:43
testers

lol. They never really listened to them, and I bet they didn't have any for AOS, at least not any outside testers who could dare to say "maybe this needs more work".

SuperHappyTime
07-07-2015, 20:48
Not to condescend here.
Wouldn't this logic mean Chaos Daemons were the highest selling models in GW's fleet?
Wouldn't it make more sense for Space Marines to become usable in Fantasy?

Shandor
07-07-2015, 20:52
Not to condescend here.
Wouldn't this logic mean Chaos Daemons were the highest selling models in GW's fleet?
Wouldn't it make more sense for Space Marines to become usable in Fantasy?

Like we have now with Sigmarines? :)

Philhelm
07-07-2015, 20:54
because it all requires a time and effort to go into the rules for these "mini-games" You need writers, editors, testers, artists and it still needs to be profitable at the end of the day. I see what you mean, and i get it. but GW will think "is it worth it" spending a lot of time on something thats a supplement to the main game they are wanting to market (their big moneymakers). Despite having "interchangeable" models, somebody may crunch numbers and believe its not worth it. I have no idea if theirs marketing data available for it all, but the way they dropped bloodbowl and others like hot potatos...

Cheers

Well, sure, it would cost an expenditure of resources in order to support multiple games, but the goal would be to hopefully sell more models. Replacing a previous game with a new, controversial game seems counterproductive to that goal. The beautiful thing is that they already created other game systems (Mordheim and Warhammer Quest), so it wouldn't cost comparatively that much to update and rerelease them.

Philhelm
07-07-2015, 20:56
Not to condescend here.
Wouldn't this logic mean Chaos Daemons were the highest selling models in GW's fleet?
Wouldn't it make more sense for Space Marines to become usable in Fantasy?

Whether Chaos Daemons are the highest selling model is irrelevant. What is relevant is that Games Workshop certainly sells more Daemons than they otherwise would since they can be used in either game.

Tzar Boris
07-07-2015, 21:15
Whilst unsure who exactly is IN the studio at the moment, gone are the days of Andy Chambers, Rick Priestley, Allesio et al. Not even sure if Jervis is there (all credit to teh guy, but he's always been a follower not a leader)

There just doesn't seem to be the hunger from GW if it's not shifting big hunks of plastic. There's probably still the mindset that Specialist Games were a mistake - and whilst they were a money pit, that was usually down to expecting them to hold their own - Mordheim should never have been canned, we know that. It was responsible, I'm sure for at least 75% of the plastic Empire Militia and Skaven Night Runner boxes sold. Epic, Inquisitor and Necromunda however coulda been much better handled as "complimentary" games. A bit of discussion with the main studio coulda seen 40k figures playable or vice versa - Epic doing what Apocalypse wanted to do - let people use their 6mm armies, but make the system scalable whilst only bringing new expensive stuff out at 40K scale. Inquisitor not being 32mm was criminal neglect.

And there's always room to have a couple of "fire and forget" games in the catalogue. What's wrong with having Blood Bowl, Space Hulk and Dreadfleet as a stock item? It's no secret the expense is in the set up of plastics, and the development of a game. Literally nothing wrong with not supporting a game past launch. But by god, you'll still make a little money from it.

I'd wager they'd sell more of those games to these mythical "casual gamers" if they passed a store and it was available. Put your hands up if Hero Quest was your gateway drug? I got "back into" wargames from random gift of the Fellowship set for my birthday one year when someone remembered I used to paint "daft wee men". It's silly things like that that you need. I work in Videogame retail now, and no-one is gonna part with 75 (let alone 250) on a whim without awesome reason. There's a reason people only buy sequels in their droves - it's not an unknown quantity. They'd rather spend that money on something "they kind of enjoyed" to something they're not sure about.

A much better gateway box, at this stage, would be to make another Hero Quest type game. Strong narrative. Heroes, monsters, concentrating on the tactical element to avoid too much RPG connotations (best not to open that can of worms). It's not as if they can't call upon their biggest (independent from studio) talent pool - Black Library. They used to have the odd Abnett snippet and stuff, but why not run the basic set contents and ideas through them, and, y'know, get them to "sex it up" a bit?

Cost? Negligible. Offer them a decent consultation fee. They've knocked their pans out for BL books that sell in their tens, why not something that'll actually get them recognition.

And remove the ban on accreditation. No-ones doing stuff for GW because they get paid so well (they're really not), so why not give them some limelight if they want. I bet you we wouldn't recognise a single name anymore, cos the "famous" guys cost too much these days. So why not re-establish the legends? Bring some personality back. The white washed sterile corporation spiel is exactly why the "humour" doesn't work in AOS. There's no-one saying these things. No soul.

Didn't mean to rant. But whoops, there it is.

Reaper85
07-07-2015, 21:32
Well, sure, it would cost an expenditure of resources in order to support multiple games, but the goal would be to hopefully sell more models. Replacing a previous game with a new, controversial game seems counterproductive to that goal. The beautiful thing is that they already created other game systems (Mordheim and Warhammer Quest), so it wouldn't cost comparatively that much to update and rerelease them.

and i can't argue with that, sell more models is the name of the game. but is it worth their while after some calculator gremlin has crunched the numbers, we are thinking about this as players, and people who actually play and care about the game. Even so, they'd still need the same teams of artists, writers, playtesters etc to re-visit these previous games, its still an expenditure. If the games as you say could be interchangable with other models we reach a new problem. If my legion of skaven can let me play at least 2 of the minigames, why would i buy extra models? ok i may only need to buy a few to give me some diversity in my minigaming experience, but are those tiny expenditures worth a development team creating a new set of rules or even updating old ones? thats something only GW can answer. But still an interesting point you make.

Philhelm
07-07-2015, 21:53
and i can't argue with that, sell more models is the name of the game. but is it worth their while after some calculator gremlin has crunched the numbers, we are thinking about this as players, and people who actually play and care about the game. Even so, they'd still need the same teams of artists, writers, playtesters etc to re-visit these previous games, its still an expenditure.

I'm sure Games Workshop could recycle rules and art, with perhaps a few updates, in order to create a cost effective core gaming system. For instance, it wouldn't be all that hard to expand Mordheim as a general gaming system, and would have a higher sales potential than a game based upon a specific setting with limited factions. A Mordheim game that could be played with most of the Fantasy Battle range would certainly sell more models than the actual Mordheim did. More importantly, Games Workshop destroyed their setting which has been around for thirty years, and must now expend even more resources in order to recreate an entirely new setting with new background and new art. It would have been much cheaper to recreate and update other games such as Mordheim.


If the games as you say could be interchangable with other models we reach a new problem. If my legion of skaven can let me play at least 2 of the minigames, why would i buy extra models? ok i may only need to buy a few to give me some diversity in my minigaming experience, but are those tiny expenditures worth a development team creating a new set of rules or even updating old ones? thats something only GW can answer. But still an interesting point you make.

The point would be that some people may not want to purchase an army of Skaven to begin with, due to the high cost of entry of Warhammer Fantasy Battle. However, the same person may decide to purchase a Mordheim-style war band. In this scenario, Games Workshop would have sold an additional box of Skaven that they otherwise wouldn't have. Furthermore, by using the same models, Games Workshop could consolidate it's bloated range of figures, which was obviously a problem with Warhammer Fantasy considering that they seem to want to merge some of the factions.

Alternatively, the Skaven player may decide to delve into "Mordheim." Perhaps he likes the game and decides to purchase a box of Empire troops in order to play a Reikland war band. Maybe he purchases some Undead too, since it's relatively cheap. He most likely wouldn't have purchased a single box of models for Warhammer Fantasy, since they couldn't really be used to play the game.

Ultimately, the point is that Games Workshop should entice potential customers from multiple angles in order to sell their range of miniatures. Don't like one of the games? That's okay since there are a few more games to choose from.

Reaper85
07-07-2015, 23:33
I'm sure Games Workshop could recycle rules and art, with perhaps a few updates, in order to create a cost effective core gaming system. For instance, it wouldn't be all that hard to expand Mordheim as a general gaming system, and would have a higher sales potential than a game based upon a specific setting with limited factions. A Mordheim game that could be played with most of the Fantasy Battle range would certainly sell more models than the actual Mordheim did. More importantly, Games Workshop destroyed their setting which has been around for thirty years, and must now expend even more resources in order to recreate an entirely new setting with new background and new art. It would have been much cheaper to recreate and update other games such as Mordheim.

I see no issue with this, it does make more sense than the AoS rollout. As for the AoS? only GW know what GW's doing :)


The point would be that some people may not want to purchase an army of Skaven to begin with, due to the high cost of entry of Warhammer Fantasy Battle. However, the same person may decide to purchase a Mordheim-style war band. In this scenario, Games Workshop would have sold an additional box of Skaven that they otherwise wouldn't have. Furthermore, by using the same models, Games Workshop could consolidate it's bloated range of figures, which was obviously a problem with Warhammer Fantasy considering that they seem to want to merge some of the factions.

Alternatively, the Skaven player may decide to delve into "Mordheim." Perhaps he likes the game and decides to purchase a box of Empire troops in order to play a Reikland war band. Maybe he purchases some Undead too, since it's relatively cheap. He most likely wouldn't have purchased a single box of models for Warhammer Fantasy, since they couldn't really be used to play the game.

Ultimately, the point is that Games Workshop should entice potential customers from multiple angles in order to sell their range of miniatures. Don't like one of the games? That's okay since there are a few more games to choose from.

Again, i do agree, i did start small with my skaven, but ultimately i knew i would roll into a larger army, at the 600 point mark, not a high measure by any means... you can cash in a lot of skaven for that cost. A skirmish game or a few other games to play while expanding my army would have been adventageous. rightfully said, this could also lure people with the smaller more specialised forces into the larger armies down the line. i think though you could have stopped the paragraph with "The point would be that some people may not want to purchase an army of Skaven to begin with." ;) how much have i spent on skaven over the years, who would be mad enough to purchase skaven heh heh

The_Real_Chris
07-07-2015, 23:46
They tried it. They decided while it didn't make a loss it didn't make enough (see that displayed on a bigger scale with fantasy) and try saw it as cannibalising sales from the main lines. For them to change their mind would require a policy uturn and GW don't seem to like those.

sixfthoneybadger
08-07-2015, 00:26
Great topic. Great question. I'm a mass fantasy battle fan. If they would have kept 8th playable beside this with rules for the new units for mass rank and file combat I'd buy a ton of these!!! GW wants to sell models great!!! Give me the ability to put 40 in a block.

Philhelm
08-07-2015, 01:23
They tried it. They decided while it didn't make a loss it didn't make enough (see that displayed on a bigger scale with fantasy) and try saw it as cannibalising sales from the main lines. For them to change their mind would require a policy uturn and GW don't seem to like those.

No, they haven't tried it, at least not with Mordheim, since Mordheim had its own model releases rather than simply encouraging the use of models form the main range.

Hedgehobbit
08-07-2015, 01:37
GW should have just bitten the bullet and made the Fantasy game use the same rules as 40K with point costs comparable between units. They could still treat them as separate lines with a simple wink for all those that want to fight Elves versus Eldar or Orks versus Orcs.

As it is now, they still have two different rules sets to manage.

qqniox
08-07-2015, 03:32
Perhaps they felt that two fantasy systems would be in conflict with each other regarding player base seeing how one system, warhammer, requires large armies of one armybook while AoS invites player to combine several factions into their army. Or that warhammer would keep players from starting AoS by giving the player bases that the new system is just some simple addition to play when you want some variation from "normal" warhammer.
But seeing how they completly shut down mordeheim, necromunda and bloodbowl, and didnt even keep those books for sale im not suprised over what happened. And its sad, print-on-demand is very simple and they could have set it up in the same way as drivethruRPG.

Or they felt they could save a ton of money if they shut down the production of square bases and therefor required a new system with round bases instead.