PDA

View Full Version : How to end a system, and the five stages of grief



Northern_Watch
09-07-2015, 04:04
After lurking for years, the End Times brought me back to WHFB and Warseer...just in time to see the system die. The frustration and anger among gamers about the end of WHFB and the birth of AOS is palpable here...certainly more than on other gaming sites! This has led me to criticize the negativity in some threads, perhaps tactlessly at times. I understand the emotion behind this issue, as many of us have invested greatly in GW's version of the gaming hobby. However, it's equally true that despite our investment in the system, this is GW's game and they can (and did) do with it what they wanted. As I read the acrimonious comments throughout this site, I wondered what it is everyone here wanted from GW once they had made the decision to move on from WHFB:

To vacate fantasy completely, ceding the terrain to competitors
To bake every gamer a cake, to be delivered with a personal apology for ending the system
To try something new, going 'all in' with a new system


I wish there had been more communication from GW during the transition, but I don't think there is any perfect way to end support for a game system. Perhaps the Warseer forums are just a reflection of the five stages of grief, and people are still moving out of denial and anger, through bargaining, and toward depression and eventual acceptance of the new paradigm. I hope to see more constructive discussions on the boards in the coming months, and there are certainly some out there. However, for now I want to ask you to consider: what will it take for you to accept the Age of Sigmar is here to stay?

Mateobard
09-07-2015, 04:06
I wanted them to produce a game that had tight rules. I wanted them to produce a game where they continued to take the previous armies seriously. I wanted them to produce a game that would be both easy to get into and tactically as fun as 8th edition.

In short, I wanted them to work a lot harder on AoS than they did.

LTERALUS
09-07-2015, 04:39
...led me to criticize the negativity in some threads...as I read the acrimonious comments...to bake every gamer a cake, to be delivered with a personal apology for ending the system...Perhaps the Warseer forums are just a reflection of the five stages of grief...I hope to see more constructive discussions...
Whoa buddy how's the air up on that soapbox? You feeling better about yourself now? You sure showed the rest of us on Warseer how feeble we are compared to your seraphic and sanctimonious disquisition. I was about to write another angry post, but thankfully I read your thread and I am re-born as an evenhanded hobby enthusiast. Now if you don't mind, I'm going to bake a cake for the folks over at GW.

3eland
09-07-2015, 04:46
Whoa buddy how's the air up on that soapbox? You feeling better about yourself now? You sure showed the rest of us on Warseer how feeble we are compared to your seraphic and sanctimonious disquisition. I was about to write another angry post, but thankfully I read your thread and I am re-born as an evenhanded hobby enthusiast. Now if you don't mind, I'm going to bake a cake for the folks over at GW.

Sounds good!

Don Zeko
09-07-2015, 04:59
I wondered what it is everyone here wanted from GW once they had made the decision to move on from WHFB:

Your question is akin to a mugger asking his victim "well after I made the decision to threaten your life and take your money, what exactly is it that you wanted from me?" I'm pretty sure we wanted GW to continue to put out a fantasy mass battle wargame, in which the models we've spent thousands of dollars on are still usable.

Philhelm
09-07-2015, 05:13
As I read the acrimonious comments throughout this site, I wondered what it is everyone here wanted from GW once they had made the decision to move on from WHFB:

I wish there had been more communication from GW during the transition, but I don't think there is any perfect way to end support for a game system.

And there you have it. If Fantasy wasn't making the sales, then obviously GW had to do something. While I don't think that destroying the Old World and giving us the Chutes and Ladders version of the 40K rules was a good idea, I can't begrudge them for trying to make Fantasy profitable.

My biggest grievance (other than what we have been given with Age of Sigmar) is that there was absolutely no communication. After Darnok released the big rumor after Christmas, I immediately halted all purchases and even stopped assembling and painting models, since I was left wondering how they should be based. Square or round, and which size? I simply can't afford to devote my time to such uncertainties.

Games Workshop has created its own problem by destroying the Old World with six months of radio silence to follow, and with no real communication about the game and its future direction. Even the damned retailers don't know what's going on! I don't have a career in business or marketing, but that seems literally insane if the objective is to sell a product. Even now we are left wondering if there will be any future releases that provide even the slightest shred of game balance.

I also feel bad for the folks that purchased a new Bloodthirster and put it on a square base. At least if they had put it on a round base, it would be compatible with both game systems. A sneaky move by GW.

MagicAngle
09-07-2015, 05:13
what will it take for you to accept the Age of Sigmar is here to stay?

I'll believe it when I see it. I think there's plenty of cause for skepticism about whether GW will keep supporting this if it underperforms over the next year.

Scribe of Khorne
09-07-2015, 05:22
I'll never accept it, what they are contemplating doing to the setting alone (models/rules be damned) is enough to drive me away.

What they should have done, is easy.

1. Communicate with the players. "Fantasy is not profitable to maintain, we are seeing it off with the End Times."

2. KILL Fantasy. Enough with this 'The models you have are still valid, we dont care about the bases its fine!' No, just end it. When I finished reading the End Times I was gutted and I dont even play the game really. 30K/40K are my 1/2, with Fantasy a very very far 3rd system. That said, what a way to end it all!

3. Put all the 8th Edition Material up for free. Why the hell not?

4. Commit to keeping the models up for 12 Months, at that point, run down the stock. COMMUNICATE THIS TO THE PLAYERS.

5. Start a new setting. 100% new. Not a continuation in any way. No Chaos Gods, maybe Sigmar and the rest of the Pure WHF stuff that came out of End Times, but divorce from 40K completely.

Thats what they should have done if they where going to kill a system. TALK TO YOUR PLAYERS WHO PAID YOUR *********** WAGES.

Losing Command
09-07-2015, 05:30
I think the biggest issue for most people is indeed the lack of communication from GW. With now way of knowing what is going to happen next, what they are trying to accomplish, what direction they're aiming for, people start losing trust and begin speculating and often end up expecting the worst. And besides, people have been in this hobby for years or decades even, I'd say they have every right to be upset if GW suddenly changes their hobby into something they may or may not like.
When a government tries to cover something up or changes direction without informing the population, people also end up very angry (and often even if the government does inform them)

I do have to say that I start to get the impression that GW is actively trying to get rid of their current base of customers in order to start anew. All the older customers often already have lots of models, so why give those up and try to get a new base of customers who don't have anything yet ?

Buddy Bear
09-07-2015, 05:46
what will it take for you to accept the Age of Sigmar is here to stay?

Why should we accept it? We're not obligated to play a game we don't like. As for it being here to stay, I doubt it. We're probably looking at GW's latest Dreadfleet. They'll be pulling that Simarine statue down from in front of GW HQ and putting the Space Marine statue back up before too long.

jet_palero
09-07-2015, 06:18
However, for now I want to ask you to consider: what will it take for you to accept the Age of Sigmar is here to stay?

I don't really care if its here to stay, I'm not going to play it. Regardless of whether its a good game or bad, I'm not interested in a fantasy skirmish game right now. I liked WFB because it was a tactical block medieval fantasy wargame. Since GW no longer wants to have one, I'm going to go play something else. Right now that looks like KoW. Hopefully I can find some like minding folks to game with.

AoS is a silly ruleset though. Its like playing checkers with however large of a pile of poker chips you feel like.

Gustav Kohn
09-07-2015, 06:33
I agree with scribe of Khorne and losing command. Lack of communication has been the key problem. What he has unfortunately done is purposefully divided the community with. No benefits to themselves. No one will be buying old models to play this game, but by saying they are compatible, they have made some people willing to keep on with AOS using old models. They not only killed the setting, but are working to make sure the game does as well.

Wesser
09-07-2015, 06:48
And there you have it. If Fantasy wasn't making the sales, then obviously GW had to do something. While I don't think that destroying the Old World and giving us the Chutes and Ladders version of the 40K rules was a good idea, I can't begrudge them for trying to make Fantasy profitable.


Fantasy was profitable. It just wasn't profitable enough.

AoS isn't a response to anything other than "lets focus on something new to boost sales", which is all well and good. Unfortunately Fantasy would cannibalize sales from the new game (which would go the way of Dreadfleet), so Fantasy was cancelled.


If GW wanted profits they could have made the kits buyers have been wanting for years. This is about control over the models we buy... GW wants that

de Selby
09-07-2015, 06:51
Thinking about how long Warhammer has been around made me realise I've been visiting Portent/Warseer for about 15 years. In that time I've seen a lot of complaints, mostly about spiralling prices and the rules being unbalanced and (in recent years) excessively random.

New editions of the core rules and army books have come out, always more expensive, often more unbalanced and random. Members here would sometimes say "that's it, I've had it, I quit!" and were told "don't let the door hit you on the way out".

Now I hear that Warhammer is less popular than it's ever been, and GW can no longer support it. To solve the problem they've brought out a new game: more expensive, more unbalanced and more random than ever before.

I don't think it's the players who are acting crazy.

aprilmanha
09-07-2015, 06:53
Denial - No... they wouldn't kill WFB would they? I'll show my support by getting a new army!
Graving - I can't believe they did this.. and after I just bought a 2000 point army to show my support!
Anger - I JUST BOUGHT A 2000 POINT ARMY FOR NOTHING!
Bargaining - Guys? can we please just stick with 8th so I can use my new army?
Acceptance - Screw AOS, we can all stick with 8th!

Wesser
09-07-2015, 06:57
I do have to say that I start to get the impression that GW is actively trying to get rid of their current base of customers in order to start anew. All the older customers often already have lots of models, so why give those up and try to get a new base of customers who don't have anything yet ?

Just proves that GW don't know it's own customers. I've been in the hobby 10 years. Here is my "to-do" list as it looked right before the rumors about squatting Fantasy came


Wood Elves
- 30 Eternal Guard
- Black Dragon (to convert to Forest Dragon)
- New Treeman

Vampire Counts
- Kitbash 120 new skeletons with Empire parts


If units get new miniatures then
- XXX kits of Zombies
- Blood Knights
- Warhawks Riders
- Waywatchers
- War dancers

Skaven
- Start a new army based on lots of Stormvermin and Rat Ogres


All things that were going to happen. Some of it may still happen if I stumble on a lucky garage sale or if my FLGS has to get rid of his old stock. Wonder how many brand new AoS-players GW will have to recruit to make up those sales...

jet_palero
09-07-2015, 07:02
Denial - No... they wouldn't kill WFB would they? I'll show my support by getting a new army!
Graving - I can't believe they did this.. and after I just bought a 2000 point army to show my support!
Anger - I JUST BOUGHT A 2000 POINT ARMY FOR NOTHING!
Bargaining - Guys? can we please just stick with 8th so I can use my new army?
Acceptance - Screw AOS, we can all stick with 8th!

Or, if you're feeling really vindictive, switch to a competitor like KoW.

samael
09-07-2015, 07:22
Or, if you're feeling really vindictive, switch to a competitor like KoW.

I did feel that vindictive, and so did my friends, it felt really cathartic to throw money at a firm that isn't being a dick to it's customers.

How they should/could have handled it as a Miniature producer? I said this before in another thread:

Guys this is it, this world is yours now, no more new rulebook, no more new armybooks, we're done. BUT you can still buy them all.

What we WILL do is make new models/units , we'll throw in the rules for them in the box or online , maybe tell you for which army they are meant for and you just put that rule in your existing rulebook, and go wild.

If they would have decided to make AOS next to that I would have been fine with everything, I wouldn't play it but I would have been fine.

Kyriakin
09-07-2015, 07:26
License the game to FW, or whoever, and get rid of the vets in a "good" way. It is unlikely the games would have subsequently been in direct competition as they are aimed at two very disparate groups.

The game was still large and somewhat profitable, but not sufficiently so for a company the size of GW. However, someone with a smaller manufacturing capacity could have taken it on.

Instead, they blew up the world and got rid of the vets in a "bad" way.

If I was a 40K player now, I would cease all purchases. This would have nothing to do with revenge or bitterness, but because I'd be very worried about the same thing happening over on that side. After all, the same people who did this have access to 40K's red button.

Buddy Bear
09-07-2015, 07:38
If I was a 40K player now, I would cease all purchases. This would have nothing to do with revenge or bitterness, but because I'd be very worried about the same thing happening over on that side. After all, the same people who did this have access to 40K's red button.

I've already started offloading my collection. I started with my brand new Adeptus Mechanicus army, and now I'm selling bundles of Space Marines. Maybe I'll sell off my large Scion force next.

Kyriakin
09-07-2015, 07:42
I've already started offloading my collection. I started with my brand new Adeptus Mechanicus army, and now I'm selling bundles of Space Marines. Maybe I'll sell off my large Scion force next.
Wow, really? I mean, I wouldn't buy more, but "40K Armageddon" isn't definite enough to sell existing collections yet IMHO.

Although, if you are getting most of the money back at this point I guess it's no harm done.

Shandor
09-07-2015, 08:06
Well i think i could accept AoS if:
-it would be a Game with rules that work somehow.
-If The Store Manager would not kick me out the Store for playing 8th edition.
-If GW would not insult my intelligence with goofy rules to get me out of the shop with my "old" Miniatures.
-If they stop selling Dice Cups for 33€.
-If it would be fun for more then 3-5 Games.
-If they start to respekt thier loyal fanbase who spend thousands of €/$ in a couple of Years and stop acting like they are ballast.

Buddy Bear
09-07-2015, 08:29
I'm keeping my Space Marine and Knight army. I'm just thinning down the number of Marines I have as well as cutting out my plans for collecting additional armies. Before End Times and Age of Sigmar, I planned to collect Undead Legion, Adeptus Mechanicus, and Necrons. All three are cancelled, and I'm reselling the Necrons I already bought while I've already sold off the Adeptus Mechanicus. My current plan is to just play Space Marines with a reduced collection, Imperial Knights, and 8th edition with my Empire army.

MiyamatoMusashi
09-07-2015, 08:50
This has led me to criticize the negativity in some threads, perhaps tactlessly at times. I understand the emotion behind this issue, as many of us have invested greatly in GW's version of the gaming hobby. ...
* To bake every gamer a cake, to be delivered with a personal apology for ending the system

"I have been tactless in some of my criticism. Thankfully I'm past that now, apart from sarcastic comments about cake, you whiners!"


I wish there had been more communication from GW during the transition

So... you'll ask an apparently rhetorical question, that appears to imply that they could only have done what they have done, and could not have done anything better. You will then follow this up with the number one single most obvious thing that they could have done better... is this not a hint to you that your fundamental proposition is unsound? Do you not wonder what else you might have got wrong?


this is GW's game and they can (and did) do with it what they wanted. ... what will it take for you to accept the Age of Sigmar is here to stay?

If it's GW's game, GW can play it themselves. Good luck doing so without customers. AoS may or may not be "here to stay" as far as GW are concerned, but our gaming group have unanimously rejected it, so it's emphatically not "here to stay" for us. We're going to play good games instead. Don't really care whether you call that denial or acceptance, but it doesn't much matter as it's GW's game, not ours, right?

Holier Than Thou
09-07-2015, 09:06
Well i think i could accept AoS if:
-If they stop selling Dice Cups for 33€.


Wait, what??? Is this for real?

Northern_Watch
09-07-2015, 10:20
Or, if you're feeling really vindictive, switch to a competitor like KoW.

True. And I don't think it's that vindictive...can't recall ever signing a non-compete clause with GW!

jtrowell
09-07-2015, 10:25
Wait, what??? Is this for real?

Yes it is, there was a scan of new releases from white dwarf, look also for their "premium combat gauge" or something like that and cry.

Edit : Found it => http://www.belloflostsouls.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/11666156_896500427054066_682256388722408248_n-472x322.jpg

Buddy Bear
09-07-2015, 10:26
"Premium combat gauge"? ...you mean a tape measure?

aprilmanha
09-07-2015, 10:35
"Premium combat gauge"? ...you mean a tape measure?
No, its a piece of plastic sprayed gold, and is 3" long (to check that something is in combat range. Yours now for only 20!

Northern_Watch
09-07-2015, 10:49
"I have been tactless in some of my criticism. Thankfully I'm past that now, apart from sarcastic comments about cake, you whiners!"

I stand by it. My point is that the end of a system isn't going to please every single player. Some blowback was likely, and trying to satisfy everyone was a fools errand.


So... you'll ask an apparently rhetorical question, that appears to imply that they could only have done what they have done, and could not have done anything better. You will then follow this up with the number one single most obvious thing that they could have done better... is this not a hint to you that your fundamental proposition is unsound? Do you not wonder what else you might have got wrong?

The OP is about moving on from a state of umbrage, to becoming constructive. I'll not forego optimism now.


If it's GW's game, GW can play it themselves. Good luck doing so without customers. AoS may or may not be "here to stay" as far as GW are concerned, but our gaming group have unanimously rejected it, so it's emphatically not "here to stay" for us. We're going to play good games instead. Don't really care whether you call that denial or acceptance, but it doesn't much matter as it's GW's game, not ours, right?

They give you a platform for what is still a cracking hobby. What you choose to do with it is up to you. As for me, I'm waiting to see the new lines they put out, and look for gamers in the area who are willing to play the game.

The_Real_Chris
09-07-2015, 11:33
What sort of cake are we talking about here?

For those who say GW should have sealed 8th in amber and x,y,z. I'm a keen Bloodbowl and Epic player. You can't even trust them to do nothing.

swordofglass
09-07-2015, 11:40
To vacate fantasy completely, ceding the terrain to competitors


Er, not sure if you've been paying attention, but they have done this . They no longer produce a fantasy wargame, so people looking for that will and are moving to other systems. I know Kings of War is attracting new players. For me, Kings of War doesn't quite fill the void, purely because it involves blocks instead of individual models. So whilst I enjoy KoW and think it's a good game on its own merits, I'm also looking forward to a new company stepping up and filling the ranked combat void which GW have left behind.

Please don't try to tell me that 'AoS is a fantasy wargame'. I will not entertain such preposterous notions. It's not even a game, never mind a wargame.

3eland
09-07-2015, 14:52
No, its a piece of plastic sprayed gold, and is 3" long (to check that something is in combat range. Yours now for only 20!

Well it is a little more than that lol

one side does 3", one side does 1", another side does 2" and the side with the hole has a 1/2".

Pretty much the little measuring tool you use in Warmahordes except modified for AoS.

Kingrick
09-07-2015, 15:01
Well it is a little more than that lol

one side does 3", one side does 1", another side does 2" and the side with the hole has a 1/2".

Pretty much the little measuring tool you use in Warmahordes except modified for AoS.

still doesn't sound worth its price....

Konovalev
09-07-2015, 15:04
I also feel bad for the folks that purchased a new Bloodthirster and put it on a square base. At least if they had put it on a round base, it would be compatible with both game systems. A sneaky move by GW.

I thought base shape only ever mattered in WFB? When have square bases ever mattered in 40k?

3eland
09-07-2015, 15:12
still doesn't sound worth its price....

Oh definitely not.

Especially since the PP one at least came with templates and was still cheaper LOL

InstantKarma
09-07-2015, 15:12
License the game to FW, or whoever, and get rid of the vets in a "good" way. It is unlikely the games would have subsequently been in direct competition as they are aimed at two very disparate groups.

The game was still large and somewhat profitable, but not sufficiently so for a company the size of GW. However, someone with a smaller manufacturing capacity could have taken it on.

Instead, they blew up the world and got rid of the vets in a "bad" way.

If I was a 40K player now, I would cease all purchases. This would have nothing to do with revenge or bitterness, but because I'd be very worried about the same thing happening over on that side. After all, the same people who did this have access to 40K's red button.

If a 40k 'End Times' looks to be in the works then yes, I'll probably halt purchases. However, the supposed common knowledge is that 40k was/is/has been the cash cow for quite some time. If it's still bringing in the $$$, then I suspect GW won't mess with it. Besides, it's IP is more 'secure' than Fantasy's ever was.

Most of my purchases are through e-bay or discounted retailers anyways. I can't afford GW prices.

sephiroth87
09-07-2015, 15:49
After lurking for years, the End Times brought me back to WHFB and Warseer...just in time to see the system die. The frustration and anger among gamers about the end of WHFB and the birth of AOS is palpable here...certainly more than on other gaming sites! This has led me to criticize the negativity in some threads, perhaps tactlessly at times. I understand the emotion behind this issue, as many of us have invested greatly in GW's version of the gaming hobby. However, it's equally true that despite our investment in the system, this is GW's game and they can (and did) do with it what they wanted. As I read the acrimonious comments throughout this site, I wondered what it is everyone here wanted from GW once they had made the decision to move on from WHFB:

To vacate fantasy completely, ceding the terrain to competitors
To bake every gamer a cake, to be delivered with a personal apology for ending the system
To try something new, going 'all in' with a new system


I wish there had been more communication from GW during the transition, but I don't think there is any perfect way to end support for a game system. Perhaps the Warseer forums are just a reflection of the five stages of grief, and people are still moving out of denial and anger, through bargaining, and toward depression and eventual acceptance of the new paradigm. I hope to see more constructive discussions on the boards in the coming months, and there are certainly some out there. However, for now I want to ask you to consider: what will it take for you to accept the Age of Sigmar is here to stay?


To answer:

1. Communication. All they had to do is let people know ahead of time and give it a proper send-off. Instead, we're forced to find out this stuff through rumors. Rumors from Spain, no less. How hard is it to level with customers through their magazine and let them know that there was something coming? And let the retailers know that while this was ending, they were building something that was better than what they were killing off?

Give the long term goal instead of doling it out in pieces and parts a week in advance at a time. Would people have been less angry if they had heard that a big rulebook was coming that expanded GW's 4 page rules? Yes. Would people have been less angry if they had heard that GW was making an Army Builder app that possibly adds balance to the list writing? Yes. And while nobody is really sure that that's what these new things are going to do, wouldn't it be nice if we knew? You would see a lot of people putting down the pitchforks and torches and giving GW enough time to roll this stuff out.

2. Release all 8th edition rules and army books as pdf documents, and let the community create a living rulebook for 8th like they did with Blood Bowl and Necromunda. And communicate that this was going to happen before Age of Sigmar dropped.


3. If they were going to create a game with severe balance issues, they needed to go back to the old system of suggesting a GM to arbitrate what's fair for both players. The game actually works a little better this way and makes more sense. Otherwise, they should have worked on a balanced system.



All that aside, I think the general feeling (at least for me) is that GW has very little respect for the current fantasy players, even though we're some of the most loyal customers they have. When other people were leaving the game, a lot of us stuck with it. The ire you're seeing is from people who have played this game in spite of GW's shortcomings. I think GW has run fantasy badly and has ended up hurting their long term profits by trying to get short term profits. When you bring out a series of expensive campaign books and then just a few months later invalidate everything, it tends to tick people off. Dwarf players are still a little salty over finally getting a new army book and not getting to use it that long. We all knew the pricing increases for what they were, which was a process of losing customers followed by GW overcharging the remaining ones to stay profitable. We all saw 8th's push towards more models for what it was. It ended up creating an even bigger barrier to starting the game, but it once again leaned on the existing customer base to keep it afloat. Meanwhile, it took them a year to FAQ the power scroll, which immediately broke the game and other stuff never got FAQed. Basically, has bilked their existing customer base and they didn't even give them the courtesy of direct, honest communication about the direction that they were going. And while they're entitled to communicate however they want, we are also allowed to dislike the lack of communication or the style of it.

As for going all in with a new system, I don't think you'll find much pushback, as long as the system is good. I'm willing to give them some time because I'm hoping they can salvage their system and I heard there was an expanded ruleset coming. But as of now, it's a mediocre system and wasn't better than what we had. What I do like most about it is that for the first time in a while, they're not raising the barrier of entry and unfairly leaning on their existing customer base to keep fantasy profitable.

As for what it will take for me to realize that Age of Sigmar is here to stay, that's on them. It doesn't have to stay. If they can sell it and it's profitable, great. But I don't necessarily believe that it's a foregone conclusion. Better run companies than GW have had failed products. And there's something to be learned from that:


Windows Vista

The idea: Vista was designed to replace Windows XP and, of course, make scads of money for Microsoft -- and it did. But the operating system was clunky and full of bugs and was greeted almost immediately with negative buzz. Vista was released on January 30, 2007, but by April, Microsoft essentially waved the white flag, allowing Dell to keep offering XP on new computers. Meanwhile, not coincidentally, Microsoft sped up the development of its next, much more well-received, offering: Windows 7.

The lesson: Customers will buy your product based on your reputation, but they won't love it solely because of it. Quality counts.

Clairol's "Touch of Yogurt" shampoo

The idea: Yogurt has a lot of vitamins and minerals, and yogurt-based shampoos are now actually on the market. However, when this came out in 1979, it thrived in the test marketing phase, but actual consumers weren't so interested in putting yogurt on their scalp.

The lesson: If you're going to challenge a conception that, say, yogurt is a food and not something you put in your hair, you need to invest a lot into educating the public first.



I may be wrong, but I think GW will learn both of those lessons very soon. The thing that makes me sad is that no one wins if their new game continues to suck and they continue to anger their existing customer base. Except maybe for other game companies. I sincerely hope they get it together and build this game into something better than the old fantasy. It's just not a guarantee that they will.



Source: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/01/06/worst-product-launches-ever_n_1182219.html

jtrowell
09-07-2015, 16:05
[/LIST]

Er, not sure if you've been paying attention, but they have done this . They no longer produce a fantasy wargame, so people looking for that will and are moving to other systems. I know Kings of War is attracting new players. For me, Kings of War doesn't quite fill the void, purely because it involves blocks instead of individual models. So whilst I enjoy KoW and think it's a good game on its own merits, I'm also looking forward to a new company stepping up and filling the ranked combat void which GW have left behind.

Please don't try to tell me that 'AoS is a fantasy wargame'. I will not entertain such preposterous notions. It's not even a game, never mind a wargame.


If you prefer smaller games, may I suggest to you Warlord by Reaper or Song of Blades and Heroes ? Both are skirmish level games like what AoS seems to be trying to do, but with better rulesets including points costs, and eitheir a large number of different units types (Reaper Warlord) to use your models with, or rules to make your own (song of blades a heroes if I remember correctly)

If you prefer something mid range, take a look at Wargods of Aegyptus/Olympus by crocodile games.

frankelee
09-07-2015, 16:38
I had to laugh, if Warhammer Fantasy is selling less than GW toenail clippers, and Age of Sigmar sells less than Warhammer Fantasy then why would it be around to stay? It has to do well, and there's little reason to assume it will. But somewhat more reason to assume it won't.

Denny
09-07-2015, 16:47
1. Communication. All they had to do is let people know ahead of time and give it a proper send-off.

. . . Doesn't the End Times tick both those boxes?

Ayin
09-07-2015, 16:47
If a 40k 'End Times' looks to be in the works then yes, I'll probably halt purchases. However, the supposed common knowledge is that 40k was/is/has been the cash cow for quite some time. If it's still bringing in the $$$, then I suspect GW won't mess with it. Besides, it's IP is more 'secure' than Fantasy's ever was.

Most of my purchases are through e-bay or discounted retailers anyways. I can't afford GW prices.

GW's already gone through much of their 40k IP issues and renamed not only factions (Imperial Guard, Space Marines), but groups within factions (Storm Troopers). Beyond that, there's not much they can do for it, and further IP protection isn't worth sacrificing potential sales.


I had to laugh, if Warhammer Fantasy is selling less than GW toenail clippers, and Age of Sigmar sells less than Warhammer Fantasy then why would it be around to stay? It has to do well, and there's little reason to assume it will. But somewhat more reason to assume it won't.

It really should be pointed out that AoS could potentially do fewer total sales than Fantasy did previously and still be considered a 'success' by GW. Fewer kits in production for the product with far fewer factions would significantly reduce overhead. Combined with giving them (what they feel is) a more secure hold on their IP and even if the total sales are less, the company sees it as a win. From there, there is every reason to think that they would focus on expansion of the line over the years, secure that it is A) costing them less to maintain and B) more legally protected.

ColShaw
09-07-2015, 17:07
It really should be pointed out that AoS could potentially do fewer total sales than Fantasy did previously and still be considered a 'success' by GW. Fewer kits in production for the product with far fewer factions would significantly reduce overhead. Combined with giving them (what they feel is) a more secure hold on their IP and even if the total sales are less, the company sees it as a win. From there, there is every reason to think that they would focus on expansion of the line over the years, secure that it is A) costing them less to maintain and B) more legally protected.

Only GW would think that reducing their player base and their sales is a long-term win.

aprilmanha
09-07-2015, 17:10
. . . Doesn't the End Times tick both those boxes?
No, GW has historically done "World ending" campaigns in the past which once they are complete everything reverts back to the status quo.
There was no reason to believe this time would be any different.

Lord_Crull
09-07-2015, 17:39
I accept that Age of Sigmar is here to stay. I just don't plan on playing it. I have seen the rules and they do not hold my interest. I don't have any real anger, just a dull feeling of disappointment.



If I was a 40K player now, I would cease all purchases. This would have nothing to do with revenge or bitterness, but because I'd be very worried about the same thing happening over on that side. After all, the same people who did this have access to 40K's red button.

Yes, I have done very much this. I had planned to start a Eldar army prior to this and I have canceled those plans. I have bought a few things off Ebay just to round out my existing collection or replace some broken models that I have. After that, I do not plan to spend any more money on expanding my 40k armies. I plan to at least wait a year after AoS to see if there are any rumors on the horizon about rebooting 40k to see if I might reconsider buying.

dwarfhold13
09-07-2015, 17:56
Wait, did someone say cake!?

I really don't want to sound like a broken record here, and I think everyone is stuck on one side of the fence or another at this point. The general consensus that I keep reading is that the people who were excited about this release are still trying to find ways to balance it. Maybe not for competition use, but just for a general, "I want to build some type of list to play with my friends" way. I also keep seeing people freaked out now about what GW will do next. They started with pulling fun mini games that they really didn't have to keep up, i.e. bloodbowl, mordeheim, and so on. Now they pull this drastic maneuver.

I think GW has really just put people on edge regardless of how you see this new game. They have really tarnished vet gamers' views and scared most away. Now I'm seeing that even some 40K guys are pulling out. Like with healthcare in America (should have fixed prices and culture, not insurance), I feel like GW is focusing on the wrong angle. This many people, regardless of what side of the fence you are on, can't be wrong, but it just looks like it is all being ignored.

One last point. Look at all the figure companies that do well and how they are doing it. None are as hyper sensitive to IP like GW is, nor nearly as guarded with having things leak out. Drumming up that interest is what creates hype, not developing something so top secret and then dumping it all at once a week after something leaks.

Cheers guys, and have fun with whatever hobby you do!

Lord Inquisitor
09-07-2015, 18:02
Denial - No... they wouldn't kill WFB would they? I'll show my support by getting a new army!
Graving - I can't believe they did this.. and after I just bought a 2000 point army to show my support!
Anger - I JUST BOUGHT A 2000 POINT ARMY FOR NOTHING!
Bargaining - Guys? can we please just stick with 8th so I can use my new army?
Acceptance - Hey, those new figures look pretty cool, maybe I'll start a small AoS force...

Fixed for you...

Northern_Watch
09-07-2015, 18:09
Fixed for you...

Perfect - cheers!

aprilmanha
09-07-2015, 18:16
Fixed for you...
Ahh yes I guess that is an option for some :P

Maybe:
Denial - No... they wouldn't kill WFB would they? I'll show my support by getting a new army!
Graving - I can't believe they did this.. and after I just bought a 2000 point army to show my support!
Anger - I JUST BOUGHT A 2000 POINT ARMY FOR NOTHING!
Bargaining - Guys? can we please just stick with 8th so I can use my new army?
Acceptance - Hey, those new figures look pretty cool for Warmachine, time to accept WFB is dead and move on!

askaval30
09-07-2015, 18:36
getting a sense of Deja Vu here...

Didn't a very similar thing occur with D&D when it shifted from 3.5 to 4th Ed?

how did that turn out for them I wonder...

AngryAngel
09-07-2015, 19:12
After lurking for years, the End Times brought me back to WHFB and Warseer...just in time to see the system die. The frustration and anger among gamers about the end of WHFB and the birth of AOS is palpable here...certainly more than on other gaming sites! This has led me to criticize the negativity in some threads, perhaps tactlessly at times. I understand the emotion behind this issue, as many of us have invested greatly in GW's version of the gaming hobby. However, it's equally true that despite our investment in the system, this is GW's game and they can (and did) do with it what they wanted. As I read the acrimonious comments throughout this site, I wondered what it is everyone here wanted from GW once they had made the decision to move on from WHFB:

To vacate fantasy completely, ceding the terrain to competitors
To bake every gamer a cake, to be delivered with a personal apology for ending the system
To try something new, going 'all in' with a new system


I wish there had been more communication from GW during the transition, but I don't think there is any perfect way to end support for a game system. Perhaps the Warseer forums are just a reflection of the five stages of grief, and people are still moving out of denial and anger, through bargaining, and toward depression and eventual acceptance of the new paradigm. I hope to see more constructive discussions on the boards in the coming months, and there are certainly some out there. However, for now I want to ask you to consider: what will it take for you to accept the Age of Sigmar is here to stay?

For me to accept age of stupid ? It will take the company switching hands totally. They should have been very upfront their campaign wasn't just that and was going to be the end of 8th, and they would be finishing the system off completely once it was done. They should have been upfront to the people, you know, their customers. Maybe even had both games going side by side awhile, ween people into AoS, as opposed to just cancel support for 8th, put out joke rules and then drop the weakest set of rules I've seen for a game since you picked up a pack of green army men and tried to think up battles for them to have. If, they gave me a cake, I know just where I'd put it, and it would be back with them, in an undisclosed location, very dark.

I will say as well, warhammer may be their IP, but it is our game. Without the player base the game doesn't exist, at the end of the day the players have the power. If their plan fails, they will see that, even if they never wish to admit it.





I've already started offloading my collection. I started with my brand new Adeptus Mechanicus army, and now I'm selling bundles of Space Marines. Maybe I'll sell off my large Scion force next.

Not the scions !! They are too cool..


No, its a piece of plastic sprayed gold, and is 3" long (to check that something is in combat range. Yours now for only 20!

Yeah, its outrageous, god bless that lower entry point for AoS.


Well it is a little more than that lol

one side does 3", one side does 1", another side does 2" and the side with the hole has a 1/2".

Pretty much the little measuring tool you use in Warmahordes except modified for AoS.

Still sounds like a rip off to me.


If a 40k 'End Times' looks to be in the works then yes, I'll probably halt purchases. However, the supposed common knowledge is that 40k was/is/has been the cash cow for quite some time. If it's still bringing in the $$$, then I suspect GW won't mess with it. Besides, it's IP is more 'secure' than Fantasy's ever was.

Most of my purchases are through e-bay or discounted retailers anyways. I can't afford GW prices.

Don't put anything beyond GW, if they've proven nothing, its that if something makes less money then they want, they will fubar it. Even 40k isn't making them the money they would want/feel they deserve. If one gets them a money jump, I'd not wager they won't end times 40k.


. . . Doesn't the End Times tick both those boxes?

Not really, a shake up of the world is one thing, out right exploding it is another.


No, GW has historically done "World ending" campaigns in the past which once they are complete everything reverts back to the status quo.
There was no reason to believe this time would be any different.

Exactly



getting a sense of Deja Vu here...

Didn't a very similar thing occur with D&D when it shifted from 3.5 to 4th Ed?

how did that turn out for them I wonder...

I think you know how that turned out, I know how it went. If it goes that way for this, I'm not sure GW is well off enough to brush it off and move back toward a positive direction like they did with DnD 5th ed to push past the mess they made with 4th. However, don't use similar overly extreme changes to a game leading to poor results as logic for this discussion, there is no place for it here, only war.

Sotek
09-07-2015, 20:56
All they needed to do was make 9th like 6th/7th which rewarded player skill vs random luck, and make actually balanced armybooks. Combine that with a more sustained end times campaign to 'reshape the borders' for 9th edition and it would have launched on a high

swordofglass
09-07-2015, 22:53
Denial: These changes are too monumentally stupid to be real.
Anger: How dare they throw a game with such great history - and great potential - down the toilet, for this dross!
Bargaining: Maybe there are changes coming which will fix everything. They're gonna still do a real 9th edition! It will be like 8th but better!
Depression: This is real. Fantasy dies. GW really doesn't care. They are as stupid as people joked - stupider in fact. They think this will work! It is madness.
Acceptance: Stick to 8th. I guess money corrupts everything after all. Oh well, it sucks but I'll live. Branch out to other games.

DaemonReign
09-07-2015, 23:16
I wanted them to produce a game that had tight rules. I wanted them to produce a game where they continued to take the previous armies seriously. I wanted them to produce a game that would be both easy to get into and tactically as fun as 8th edition.

For some reason GW never really had the ability to shoulder the weight of its own name and reputation. Let alone the competence to understand the true strength of their product was appearantly lacking. In hindsight, the advent of 8th Edition (the unquestionable peak of the system, as it were) was just a death-rattle. They tried, half-heartedly, to do justice to the game - but failed, as always, to follow up, to cross the t's and dot the i's.
Why - is a mystery - but I suspect the Company suffers from a lot of Group-Thinking, inability to look to their own strengths (first and foremost their notorious and unparalleled ability to ignore the fanbase). What's strange is that they couple this arrogance with a seeming total lack of self-confidence.

It's all really sad. WHFB was the towering 'original' by which all other comparable board-games were judged and defined - where-as Age of Sigmar is just Another variant, at best.

Long story short I'm guessing the old-timers at GW HQ were great creators but total fails as recruiters. The second generation of GW execs are exactly the sort of blokes that should never have been let inside the company. I also suspect their organization is flawed - putting the wrong people on the wrong tasks, like letting the concept guys take order-calls in their 'free time' and stupid efficiency-mongering like that. The whole thing could still go on for a good long while thanks to being 'the first and biggest' but then when shareholder-pressure started to mount the incompetence got mixed with panic and.. they just killed the game in a way that they'll never ever make up for.

Looking at the 'starting-barrier' being supposedly too high (for 'oldhamer') is starting in the wrong end. If GW had the competence and vision to care for the strengths of their system getting new people into it wouldn't have been a problem.
8th Edition needed some surgical tweaking, a team of monkeys should have worked around the clock to straighten out FAQ/Errata matters, an austere ambition for armybook balance coupled with absolute respect for faction-lore should have been implemented.
Not easy*, but what the Community deserves.

But GW never had the competence. Always kind of spoiled and clueless. Maintaining that pathetic stance of refusing to choose between strict coherence and beer & pretzels, somehow missing that simple fact that the one can't really exist without the other.

Age of Sigmar is a joke. A sad, unnecessary joke.

* = ...although not all that hard either, to be honest!

DaemonReign
09-07-2015, 23:27
Acceptance: Stick to 8th. I guess money corrupts everything after all. Oh well, it sucks but I'll live. Branch out to other games.

Swap 'Money' with 'Stupidity'.
Let me give you a fresh example:
Bethesda and Fallout 4.
Probably a lot more Money in that franchise compared to WHFB - but that somehow isn't stopping Bethesda from delivering what the fans want/expect in a carefully tastefull manner.

'Money' is not to blame here. People with their own heads up their own behinds is.

Buddy Bear
10-07-2015, 01:06
'Money' is not to blame here. People with their own heads up their own behinds is.

That was the case with the people behind D&D 4E. That was the case with the producers behind Star Trek: Enterprise. There are moves which reinvigorate franchises, and there are moves which bury them. I suspect we've got an example of the latter, and that it'll have a brief peak of success as people check it out before it craters spectacularly and GW quietly puts the space marine statue back in front of their building.

vlad78
10-07-2015, 09:40
That was the case with the people behind D&D 4E. That was the case with the producers behind Star Trek: Enterprise. There are moves which reinvigorate franchises, and there are moves which bury them. I suspect we've got an example of the latter, and that it'll have a brief peak of success as people check it out before it craters spectacularly and GW quietly puts the space marine statue back in front of their building.

Or not, because there are no certainties about what could happen to the 40k franchise anymore. I'm already quite disappointed by the 7th edition codicies, I'll let things rest for a few years until the next edition is released in order to see where GW is going. (if GW reaches that point)

If WFB end times have proven anything, it's that Kirby's yes men squad aren't able to capitalize on GW strenghts. I think GW strategic thinking is deeply flawed at every levels.

Tato
10-07-2015, 13:05
Some folks may have taken their grieving maybe a step too far... :) Hothead Gamer Flips Out, Burns Warhammer Fantasy Army (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/141508-Hothead-Gamer-Burns-Warhammer-Fantasy-Army-Over-New-Age-of-Sigmar-Rules)

Lord Inquisitor
11-07-2015, 02:11
I'd say that's probably pretty cathartic.

Sothron
11-07-2015, 06:36
I refuse to accept AoS. It is just that simple. I tried using the rules, they were literally on the level of holding up models and clashing them together and going PEW PEW. The destruction of the Old World setting that I've been an avid fan of since the mid to late 80's till present can never be replaced by the IP copyright crap they are trying to force down our throats.

So I will continue to use previous editions of WHFB and wipe my ass with AoS.

I hope that clarifies things for the OP.

aprilmanha
11-07-2015, 08:15
I'd say that's probably pretty cathartic.
It was fun to watch at least :) I would fix my eye on a model near the flame and try to guess how long it would last till it melted, and then when it did, I would find another one to fix on :D

Losing Command
11-07-2015, 08:20
I never even considered the fact that you could indeed easily print the AoS rules on toilet paper and use it in the bathroom. There might even be a market for that, possibly high demand too :eek:

Davidian
11-07-2015, 08:52
Hmm... I think 6th edition was my favourite.... May have to re read the BRB but I wasn't a fan of random power dice lv4 boss wizards and steadfast buffoonery. Yeah, 6th or 7th.

Good time to get cheep stuff on eBay.

Look at mordhiem, bloodbowl, epic 40k, necromunder... They all got better when gw dropped them and stopped *********** up the rules (or before they had a chance to) XD.

Denny
11-07-2015, 08:53
I'd say that's probably pretty cathartic.

Maybe, but it's just so childish.
If you hate the game that much sell the army. If you don't need the money give it to charity, or just give the army to some kid who can't afford the models but really wants to play. Make someone's life better rather than just screaming for attention on the internet.

Tato
11-07-2015, 09:55
Or making a vivid statement of protest.

RunepriestRidcully
11-07-2015, 11:03
Good thing Toy story ain't real :P
I'm buying a couple of Tomb king bits, I already have everything I need to play c.2/2500 points of fantasy with High elves and lizardmen and selling some bits off, trimming around the edges.
But yeah, it's quite sad, makes me glad they an't rewrite the LOTR fluff but worried about what they will do to 40k

Tato
11-07-2015, 12:18
Actually if any one wants to throw away his WHFB army give me a sign. :) Me and my friends will still play 8th.

Sothron
11-07-2015, 22:25
I never even considered the fact that you could indeed easily print the AoS rules on toilet paper and use it in the bathroom. There might even be a market for that, possibly high demand too :eek:

I am glad I can give helpful suggestions to the community on what to do with AoS.

silveralen
11-07-2015, 22:31
So, I think we've got people mainly at level of anger (still lashing out) and bargaining (the various attempts at fixing the parts of AoS they dislike). I wonder if the people who made it to depression are the ones who stop posting?

Davidian
12-07-2015, 12:46
Don't grieve, it's not dead, it lives!

WHFB living rule book found here.
Get amongst it!

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?373349-Warhammer-CE-the-definitive-rule-set-for-WFB-veterans

DinDon
12-07-2015, 12:53
I'll believe it when I see it. I think there's plenty of cause for skepticism about whether GW will keep supporting this if it underperforms over the next year.

What if i told you that they have produced minis for propably 2-3 years already?so for the next 2-3 years you ll get AOS, what happens after that.....no idea. If AOS fails say goodbye entirelly to fantasy setting.

Ben
12-07-2015, 13:52
I was excited for Age of Sigmar, and the idea of collecting 4 or 5 small skirmish forces (I've got Dwarves and OnG, and was going to add Chaos, Sigmarines and Undead), which would mean I could go down the store and get some games in with a variety of forces that I could physically carry.

Then I saw the rules.

And I started to work out how my dwarves would fit into a Kings of War army.

And look at buying the plastic slayers and hammerers that Avatars of War make.

GW has very firmly targeted the game at young kids, and avoided the list building element that a lot of people enjoyed.

RAW Age of Sigmar is pretty bad. So I'm not going to play it or buy it. That's that. I may pick up some minis on ebay or in firesales of old stock from Indies ditching AoS, but I'm not going to be an AoS player.

The future of Age of Sigmar is uncertain, as GW won't communicate, and so there is no point in investing in something that is shaping up to be a bigger and worse version of Dreadfleet.