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View Full Version : A question for store owners/manager: how is AoS selling?



ewar
09-07-2015, 13:45
As the title suggests, I know there are plenty of store owners and managers on these boards, could you say whether Age of Sigmar is selling well? Better/worse/as expected compared to other starter sets?

I'm fascinated to know whether GW can shift that product in the volumes needed, given the incredibly minimal advertising they've done.

thanks,
Ed

Griefbringer
09-07-2015, 14:36
Isn't it a bit early to be asking this question, considering that the starter set is not even yet officially released for a couple of days?

ewar
09-07-2015, 14:41
Isn't it a bit early to be asking this question, considering that the starter set is not even yet officially released for a couple of days?

Actually, that's a pretty good point, for some reason I thought it was out on Saturday just past (probably because it's been discussed to death for the last month). Feel free to ignore me for a week, unless you happen to have lots of pre-orders!

Griefbringer
09-07-2015, 14:50
Last Saturday was when the free rules download came available on the GW website.

aprilmanha
09-07-2015, 14:50
Well I do know our local FLGS has no preorders for it :) Though I guess you could call a number of the customer Old Guards.
They still have WFB tournaments every few months!

Wintermute
09-07-2015, 18:28
Well I do know our local FLGS has no preorders for it :)

Neither has mine :eek:

Autumn Leaves
09-07-2015, 18:41
I hope the kids love it and it hooks a new generation of tabletop gamers into the hobby

Blutrache
09-07-2015, 20:04
Do not know the grand total they got, but my store still has 6 boxes unspoken for.

/Cheers

RandomThoughts
09-07-2015, 21:05
I hope the kids love it and it hooks a new generation of tabletop gamers into the hobby

I hope it doesn't turn a generation of potential wargamers against the hobby based on a few miserable experiences they had with AoS and think all tabletop games are like that...

Herzlos
09-07-2015, 22:33
I hope it doesn't turn a generation of potential wargamers against the hobby based on a few miserable experiences they had with AoS and think all tabletop games are like that...

Yeah it's hard enough to convince them that not all games are like 40K, nevermind AoS

spaint2k
10-07-2015, 09:42
My local store seems to have had a good number of preorders. I'll ask the exact numbers tomorrow when I go in to um... pick mine up so I can play with my new man dollies with a friend who bought in with me...
First GW thing I've bought in about two years, other than a single bottle of paint (that I've not yet opened).

stroller
10-07-2015, 10:17
I preordered (small 1 man store) which had 6 in the queue before me at 4pm on preorder day 1. Since then.. I guess I'll find out tomorrow morning...

tristessa
10-07-2015, 10:30
For us it's sold well and a lot better than any WHFB product (including the end times). Relative to the two 40k starter sets last year (Stormclaw and Deathstorm) it has been about equal.



I'm fascinated to know whether GW can shift that product in the volumes needed, given the incredibly minimal advertising they've done.


I think the advertising has been a lot better than a great many releases - press copies went out for this one.

Also what is the volume needed? I expect it's not as many as you think it is. This is not for short term gain I suspect...

ehlijen
10-07-2015, 10:57
I hope it doesn't turn a generation of potential wargamers against the hobby based on a few miserable experiences they had with AoS and think all tabletop games are like that...

I don't think its that bad a game. Sure, it's not balanced and fairly shallow, but it's not horrifying. At worst, it will bore some people and send them looking for something else to play.

heavyheart
10-07-2015, 11:00
Week one sales will be high but that means little as die hards will spend money on anything GW, question is will it be selling as well in six months.

Promethius
10-07-2015, 13:37
I have pre-ordered mine from Dark Sphere where it said 120 in stock this morning (previously awaiting stock). I have since received a dispatch notification and the stock report on the website says 109. Now, it could be that pre-orders were not counted in stock, or worst case it could be that they have only received 11 pre-orders... I might see if I can keep a loose tab on it over the weekend as I had hoped (!) that AoS would self out quickly as I want it to be a success

Reinholt
10-07-2015, 14:17
Neither has mine :eek:

I am sure this is uncorrelated with you having exterminated all organic life in a 10-mile radius, Mr. Roboto.

bobthebobish
10-07-2015, 15:11
Our store has 2 pre-orders though mostly just for the models and no money down yet. GW was very insistent that we should order at least 15 to get a free in store demo box, we ordered 4 because the rules were less than decent. Honestly I can't see the game itself selling very well as it can not be used in events.

I run X-wing, Infinity, Warhammer (40k and still fantasy) as well as various one off events like munchking, cash and guns etc. The issue with sigmar is that the rules are not set up as competitive play at all and honestly I'm not willing to revamp the entire system FOR GW in order to get events up and make the game sell. Instead I can focus on adding in flames of war or Kings of war in the store and be supported by a company that puts some forthought into their rules and makes it easier for a tournament organizer to get things moving.

I have asked our players if they want a sigmar event ran and the overwhelming talk is that it just wouldn't be fun without a TON of house rules all over the place. I know GW wants stores to demo the starter (again they refuse to give us 1 without ordering 15 so no way) which seems to be a balanced all in one BOARD GAME. Unfortunately we care too much about our customers to fool them into playing a demo of a game that seems balanced only to let them buy it, paint it up, bring it in and get DESTROYED by someone who has been playing for years and has a huge collection to beat them down with. New players who join for AoS will eventually have this experience and most likely end up hating war gaming when they could have joined into a game that actually tries to make itself competitive and fair. I would hope other stores realize that a one time sale to some kid is not anywhere near as profitable as decades of sales gained from mutual trust and respect.

Hengist
10-07-2015, 15:35
It is perhaps worthy of note that Age of Sigmar Has not made it into BoardGameGeek's 'The Hotness' list, which charts the games whose BGG pages have received the most clicks/links in the past week. Now BGG is not a site dedicated primarily to miniature wargames, but it might be telling that X-Wing and Imperial Assault nevertheless both appear there.

I look forward to seeing icv2's comparative sales figures next quarter...

Avian
10-07-2015, 15:55
It is perhaps worthy of note that Age of Sigmar Has not made it into BoardGameGeek's 'The Hotness' list, which charts the games whose BGG pages have received the most clicks/links in the past week. Now BGG is not a site dedicated primarily to miniature wargames, but it might be telling that X-Wing and Imperial Assault nevertheless both appear there.

I look forward to seeing icv2's comparative sales figures next quarter...

IIRC Assassination Force also made the hotness list.

El_Commi
10-07-2015, 16:05
I have pre-ordered mine from Dark Sphere where it said 120 in stock this morning (previously awaiting stock). I have since received a dispatch notification and the stock report on the website says 109. Now, it could be that pre-orders were not counted in stock, or worst case it could be that they have only received 11 pre-orders... I might see if I can keep a loose tab on it over the weekend as I had hoped (!) that AoS would self out quickly as I want it to be a success

I was thinking of ordering one from Dark Sphere. But it was 35 delivery to N. Ireland...

Hengist
10-07-2015, 16:14
IIRC Assassination Force also made the hotness list.
It did indeed, which invites some rather sad conclusions about just how little interest there is in WFB outside of its shrinking (well, shrunken, I suppose) core fanbase.

williamsond
10-07-2015, 17:10
not sure if it makes any difference, even though Assassination force made it on to the hot list, my local store still has about a dozen sets left over from release.

I know one of my buddies was looking to go halves with someone or swap the sig marines for the chaos half in a second set and couldn't find any one to buy a copy with him at 75 pounds.

heavyheart
10-07-2015, 17:57
I was thinking of ordering one from Dark Sphere. But it was 35 delivery to N. Ireland...

Well it's not cheap taking the ferry, got to cover lunch...

Whirlwind
10-07-2015, 19:08
It will be interesting to see how well the limited edition source book sells over the weekend. If it takes a while to sell out (or doesn't at all) then it probably isn't a good sign for AoS. The picture already looks bleak from what posts we have, but then it is unlikely we will have the picture from GW stores. People that buy from an independent are likely to be more critical as they are exposed to other games.

lbecks
11-07-2015, 00:12
It will be interesting to see how well the limited edition source book sells over the weekend. If it takes a while to sell out (or doesn't at all) then it probably isn't a good sign for AoS. The picture already looks bleak from what posts we have, but then it is unlikely we will have the picture from GW stores. People that buy from an independent are likely to be more critical as they are exposed to other games.

For US customers i'd imagine Ebay is the place to go. Greater than 20 percent off and free shipping from a lot of places.

ewar
11-07-2015, 01:45
It did indeed, which invites some rather sad conclusions about just how little interest there is in WFB outside of its shrinking (well, shrunken, I suppose) core fanbase.

I think there is probably a decent amount of interest, however the incomprehensible launch strategy by GW must be hindering things - I mean just look at the hurricane katrina of all ragestorms on multiple war gaming forums. That must be dampening new comers appetite for jumping into the system. Also, it looks balls to play.

Tyberos
11-07-2015, 06:30
Facebook updates from my two closest Games Workshop stores in Stoke and Crewe (UK) indicate free give-aways depending on how much you spend.


The first 20 people to purchase a copy of the starter game will receive a free pin badge.

And the first 24 people to spend 100 will get a free wristband.

Finally the first 4 people to spend 150 or more will receive a free tshirt.



We haaaaaave:


+ 12 Stormcast Eternal and Khorne Wristbands (each) available for FREE for the first 24 through the shop's doors!!!


+ 10 Khorne and Stormcast Eternal Badges (each) available with purchases of 35 or more!


+ 10 Stormcast Eternal and Khorne Pin Badges (each) available with purchases of 80 or more!


+ And 2 Khorne and Stormcast Eternal T-Shirts (each) to give away for purchases of 150 or more!!!


They aren't much really but up-scaling from pin-badges to t-shirts, even if there isn't many of them shows they are putting extra effort in to encourage sales.

Deadhorse
11-07-2015, 08:11
A badge of shame. It should say "Proud feeder of the GW cash machine".

Herzlos
11-07-2015, 09:03
A pin-badge for spending 80? Like the ones they throw in mail order for free?

At least Warlord give you a free mini at 50. If I played Korne I'd probably try and get the tshirt though

Blutrache
11-07-2015, 09:47
I know one store that had 60 as introductory price last night. Another took a fiver off and put 1 free copy in a lottery pool for every 10 they sold. Never went myself so I don't know how it turned out though...
/Cheers

El_Commi
11-07-2015, 12:19
By 11 this Morning my local only had about 7 left on the shelves after restocking.

They were jam packed about 20-30 people in store from 10 onwards. I saw at least 15 sold and more than 8 preordered.

Whirlwind
11-07-2015, 14:54
Seems that it might be a hit and miss then. Only thing I'd note is that GW only have two stores in Ireland (Belfast and Dublin I think) so hence there is less competition which concentrates the sales to these stores (So hence may give an artificially high sales rate).

Lucifer216
11-07-2015, 18:01
Dark Sphere had about 108 copies of AoS in stock yesterday prior to release and now have 86, so they've sold 22 copies. Doesn't look that impressive as I would have thought the sales-curve would be quite front-loaded.

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heavyheart
11-07-2015, 18:19
Dark Sphere had about 108 copies of AoS in stock yesterday prior to release and now have 86, so they've sold 22 copies. Doesn't look that impressive as I would have thought the sales-curve would be quite front-loaded.

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

Given they are a well known site and have a physical store with a discount that's very low for opening weekend.

robbienw
11-07-2015, 19:01
That's not the case chaps, Dark Sphere had 180 copies come in, so they have sold 94.

I looked at AoS on their website earlier in the week, and it said '0 copies in stock' '180 due in soon'. When their copies actually showed as in stock on their system late Thursday, then it said '119 in stock' so at that point I looked, they must have had 61 pre-orders which were deducted from the total. By Friday it had gone down to 108 in stock.

That's the way their website stocking system works, it shows how many copies of an item they are getting in regardless of pre-orders and items still available for sale. Then when it shows as actually in stock, pre-orders are deduced from the total.

Lucifer216
11-07-2015, 19:19
Ah - my apologies and thanks for the correction. So Dark Sphere have sold 83 copies so far. That's definitely more impressive - sales of 4980 are not to be sneezed at, but we're still talking about one of the biggest online discounters and one of the biggest independent stockists in London.

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Jim30
11-07-2015, 19:45
Ah - my apologies and thanks for the correction. So Dark Sphere have sold 83 copies so far. That's definitely more impressive - sales of 4980 are not to be sneezed at, but we're still talking about one of the biggest online discounters and one of the biggest independent stockists in London.

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

To be fair, i dont thin of DS as a warhammer fantasy bastion - i go there very regularly and struggle to re,e,ber the last time i saw it played. I wonder whether its as much to do with reality that DS is arguably more about magic, xwing and 40k than whfb?

Lucifer216
11-07-2015, 20:07
That's where this gets tricky. From what I understand, AoS is supposed to be more to GW than just WHFB 9th edition. It's supposed to have mass appeal and hopefully end up with the same following as 40k. Consequently its sales have to be far more than adequate for GW to judge it as a success.

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Whirlwind
11-07-2015, 20:10
Element Games had 60 in stock this morning but currently have 54 in stock. 6 sold but an unknown number of preorders (at least 1 looking at their twitter!)

I'm more inclined to watch the Limited Editions to get a feel for the popularity. End Times and a lot of 40k LEs sold out very quickly usually within a day or so. If there are some left next week then it's probably not selling as well as GW hoped (as they'd only make as many as they would hope to be able to sell).

heavyheart
11-07-2015, 20:36
The limited editions always sell out either to die hard fans or ebay scalpers.

Sephillion
11-07-2015, 20:47
My LGS hasn't sold one. They were all still there, despite the store being full. Still early, but people didn't break the doors to get it...

NoobLord
11-07-2015, 22:57
It also would be interesting to see if any store owners report an influx of kids interested in or actually buying Rage of Sigmar as the questions of whether this game is aimed at kids or indeed would appeal to kids have been raised quite a lot over the last few weeks both here and on other forums.

Kulgur
11-07-2015, 23:26
Element Games had 60 in stock this morning but currently have 54 in stock. 6 sold but an unknown number of preorders (at least 1 looking at their twitter!)

I'm more inclined to watch the Limited Editions to get a feel for the popularity. End Times and a lot of 40k LEs sold out very quickly usually within a day or so. If there are some left next week then it's probably not selling as well as GW hoped (as they'd only make as many as they would hope to be able to sell).

Element games is at 49 now. Given that they're selling them at 60 quid a pop rather than 75, that doesn't look promising.

Avian
11-07-2015, 23:27
It also would be interesting to see if any store owners report an influx of kids interested in or actually buying Rage of Sigmar as the questions of whether this game is aimed at kids or indeed would appeal to kids have been raised quite a lot over the last few weeks both here and on other forums.

How would these kids have heard about it, if they weren't already into miniatures?

Inquisitor Kallus
11-07-2015, 23:36
Word of mouth, tinternet, 'ooh my Jimmy plays with these Warhamster toy soldiers, the other day they said bring down a friend, we're having a party there'. Uncles, cousins, Unclecousins, Batman and Robin err ,hang on a minute thats not right *KAPOW!*

RainSong
12-07-2015, 00:19
The book and recent white dwarfs are doing well on the the itunes charts (top 10 or 20)... So there is clearly some interest out there, despite the internet whinefest.


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Voss
12-07-2015, 00:30
It will be interesting to see how well the limited edition source book sells over the weekend. If it takes a while to sell out (or doesn't at all) then it probably isn't a good sign for AoS. The picture already looks bleak from what posts we have, but then it is unlikely we will have the picture from GW stores. People that buy from an independent are likely to be more critical as they are exposed to other games.

Limited edition sales are pretty meaningless. Even if you have a clear idea of how many limiteds there are, most of them go to folks trying to scam and resell them, not because they're interested in the product.

theredknight
12-07-2015, 01:38
I hope the kids love it and it hooks a new generation of tabletop gamers into the hobby
+1. that is SO important.

Whirlwind
12-07-2015, 10:37
Limited edition sales are pretty meaningless. Even if you have a clear idea of how many limiteds there are, most of them go to folks trying to scam and resell them, not because they're interested in the product.

But this in itself is an indicator of how well AoS is selling. If they don't think there is a market for them then the resellers won't bother buying them. Take ET early hardback books, reselling was at least twice the price at the time because there was the market, yet the current LE is languishing.

TheFang
12-07-2015, 12:10
But this in itself is an indicator of how well AoS is selling. If they don't think there is a market for them then the resellers won't bother buying them. Take ET early hardback books, reselling was at least twice the price at the time because there was the market, yet the current LE is languishing.

What's really interesting is that there's no limit to the purchases (http://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Warhammer-Age-of-Sigmar-Book-LTDEd). You can buy as many as you like rather than the recent one per order limit. Even the scalpers are opting out of this one.

M'ichal
12-07-2015, 21:28
My local GW sold out of the AoS starter sets, which was a pleasant surprise.

Same with the new paints, I think only 1 pot was left.

Hoffa
12-07-2015, 23:33
My local lgs has not sold a single box of AoS on Sunday 12:th. (and yes they are open on Sundays) started the day with 76 in stock, ended with 76 in stock.

Lord Cedric
13-07-2015, 00:30
My local (non GW) game store had 16 Age of Sigmar box set copies ready for game launch. There were only 4 left by store close that night. I helped the owner launch the new game so am privy to many of the store's details.

It was a very much huge success in store and for our gaming community. There were, as I counted, 4 players who showed up with no intentions of buying a box, played a few AoS games and left with a box. Most people were able to get in at least 3 games each with 4 tables available.

I also enjoyed the game. .. and I'm an "old" gamer at 40 who has all 15 WFB armies and then some. I went home with 2 box sets for myself.

- Lord Cedric

SuperHappyTime
13-07-2015, 02:31
When I checked my FLGS, we had four boxes and I'd guess this is damn close to the full stock we would have gotten. Area isn't big on Fantasy though anyway, so I don't expect us to have any purchases anyway.

spaint2k
13-07-2015, 07:32
My local store says they sold very well. They had 15 go out on preorder.

Herzlos
13-07-2015, 10:00
I've seen prices go as low as 40 with shipping, so I'm assuming it's not selling quite as well as intended. My LGS is selling them for 55 (so about 25% off)

Deadhorse
13-07-2015, 10:19
So since we're getting a range of responses from "sold out" to "not a single one", we can assume this isn't getting us anywhere.

For GW, AoS is a long term thing that's meant to attract new players. Sales on release date =/= new players (given no advertising), so initial sales performance can only be used to gauge how many vets were interested or put off.

The interesting thing is long-term performance. Will people who have bought this shell out for AoS armies, will there be an influx of kids buying sigmarines... The report at the end of 2015 will be the first real opportunity to assess whether the GW strategy makes sense.

Hoffa
13-07-2015, 13:35
Yes, it will be interesting to see the actual advertising GW must have planned. How will they sell the game to the youtube generation?

M'ichal
13-07-2015, 16:35
Yes, it will be interesting to see the actual advertising GW must have planned. How will they sell the game to the youtube generation?

Someone said they'll be at GenCon, I wanna see how that goes. I hope they send someone enthusiastic who will really present that starter set well to the gamut of gamers out there.

EmperorNorton
13-07-2015, 16:45
Someone said they'll be at GenCon, I wanna see how that goes.
I am curious as well how they fare in an environment full of competition.

ColShaw
13-07-2015, 17:43
I am curious as well how they fare in an environment full of competition.

I suspect they'll forge a narrative instead of competing.

Wintermute
13-07-2015, 18:37
My FLGS has yet to sell a single copy of AoS, which is unexpected.

Whirlwind
13-07-2015, 19:38
Someone said they'll be at GenCon, I wanna see how that goes. I hope they send someone enthusiastic who will really present that starter set well to the gamut of gamers out there.

I wouldn't be too optimistic even if they did. The exhibition plan has them set up with one tiny stall well away from the entrance down a side alley with one other stall. The foot fall at the location they have is likely to be relatively light. They are not even near the family fun pavilion which would have made more sense.

Avian
13-07-2015, 19:53
http://www.gencon.com/exhibit/map

They're booth 772, near the top left corner of the Art Show (big yellowish space), but not near anything else. That's a shame, because I think this box could do well with the 'dads with sons' crowd, which seem to be reasonably common at Gen-con.

ewar
13-07-2015, 21:16
I suspect they'll forge a narrative instead of competing.

Haha that is a great reply!

I find it telling that posters here who like AoS are saying it's sold really well and those who don't like it are saying it's still on the shelf... Oh well, who ever thought you'd get confirmation bias on the Internet!?

Reinholt
13-07-2015, 21:35
Haha that is a great reply!

I find it telling that posters here who like AoS are saying it's sold really well and those who don't like it are saying it's still on the shelf... Oh well, who ever thought you'd get confirmation bias on the Internet!?

I think it may also be a form of self-selection bias:


The most anti-GW posters regarding fantasy are probably in areas/groups that already quit playing GW games, and are unlikely to be interested in returning.
The most pro-GW posters regarding fantasy are probably in areas/groups with a strong interest in the less rules/more random direction that GW was already going in, and are likely to be interested in continuing.


What I am trying to watch for in aggregate is where the balance shakes out in aggregate, and the plural of anecdote is not data.

By which I mean, we really need to think 6mo to 1yr forward about the retention rate and if GW will grow new communities with this game above and beyond what they lost in the transition and retain those going forward. If not, it is a failure. If so, it is a success.

MiyamatoMusashi
13-07-2015, 22:31
By which I mean, we really need to think 6mo to 1yr forward about the retention rate and if GW will grow new communities with this game above and beyond what they lost in the transition and retain those going forward. If not, it is a failure. If so, it is a success.

Of course we won't know for sure until later, but we can speculate and discuss; on which note I would ask who it is they expect to replace the customers they're losing.

To reach a new audience, they'd have to reach out. Other than sending out a few review kits of the boxed game (mostly met with bemusement - see for example the Tale of Painters review on the front page of this very site), they're not reaching out at all - no advertisement, no community engagement, nothing. There's no reason to think anyone's aware of Age of Sigmar that wasn't already a customer, and GW have just intentionally discarded a large chunk of them. The recruitment and retention rates can't possibly be higher than they were before.

Again, we won't know for sure for a while yet, but I'll eat my own face if it succeeds by that measure, because they've done nothing but release the product and wait expectantly with their hand out.

Herzlos
13-07-2015, 22:33
http://www.gencon.com/exhibit/map

They're booth 772, near the top left corner of the Art Show (big yellowish space), but not near anything else. That's a shame, because I think this box could do well with the 'dads with sons' crowd, which seem to be reasonably common at Gen-con.


Crikey, they've got a quarter of the space of north star (349, first one I recognised), who could fit their entire operation in bugmans. Right on the fringe too.

NoobLord
13-07-2015, 22:48
Exactly. Beasts of War have just done a whole week of vids of the new Infinity release with the head guy from Corvus over in the studio talking about the design, future releases and playing demo games with the new models. Similarly they have had guys from Warlord and the Flames of War guys over doing their thing and marketing their products.

GW just sends them threatening letters from the legal team and doesn't throw them a bone at all so appear to get less and less coverage and when they do talk about GW they seem to be a bit less enthusiastic compared to other companies. Strange that. It's pretty easy to find designers' commentary in written or video form from any games company apart from GW. I've never run a business but surely just making a product and crossing your fingers that people will come running with their wallets open is wildly optimistic if not negligent.

re: Northstar. That's ironic considering they are making the minis for Frostgrave which fits the bill for a Mordheim replacement. But GW didn't want any money from Mordheim players...

ihavetoomuchminis
13-07-2015, 22:50
Haha that is a great reply!

I find it telling that posters here who like AoS are saying it's sold really well and those who don't like it are saying it's still on the shelf... Oh well, who ever thought you'd get confirmation bias on the Internet!?

I thought i was the only one seeing that.

Despite the (as always) great Reinholt explanation, i think it's way more simple.

People lie in the internet to support their points and waiting for the bandwagon effect. "If i say it sells/doesnt sell, maybe people would/won't buy it, and i'll be right". I doubt most of them to have visited a store this weekend at all.

ebbwar
13-07-2015, 23:02
But GW didn't want any money from Mordheim players...

GW does want money from Mordheim players... as long as its spent on AoS or 40k :P

jet_palero
14-07-2015, 02:04
I think it may also be a form of self-selection bias:


The most anti-GW posters regarding fantasy are probably in areas/groups that already quit playing GW games, and are unlikely to be interested in returning.
The most pro-GW posters regarding fantasy are probably in areas/groups with a strong interest in the less rules/more random direction that GW was already going in, and are likely to be interested in continuing.


What I am trying to watch for in aggregate is where the balance shakes out in aggregate, and the plural of anecdote is not data.

By which I mean, we really need to think 6mo to 1yr forward about the retention rate and if GW will grow new communities with this game above and beyond what they lost in the transition and retain those going forward. If not, it is a failure. If so, it is a success.

I haven't noticed GW doing anything to actively grow communities in years. My local store (prior to moving to Japan) was generally didn't have room for gamers to game at the store. It was too small. He still had his paint station, but that was small as well. Are other GW stores doing anything to help grow their local scene?

KurganFr
14-07-2015, 04:25
My local store is constantly running campaigns and special game days, albeit not necessarily at times that are friendly for older gamers with a day job. The manager also takes part in local tournaments. However, I am not seeing a big push to recruit players outside of the ones who already visit the store.

f2k
14-07-2015, 07:45
Exactly. Beasts of War have just done a whole week of vids of the new Infinity release with the head guy from Corvus over in the studio talking about the design, future releases and playing demo games with the new models. Similarly they have had guys from Warlord and the Flames of War guys over doing their thing and marketing their products.

GW just sends them threatening letters from the legal team and doesn't throw them a bone at all so appear to get less and less coverage and when they do talk about GW they seem to be a bit less enthusiastic compared to other companies. Strange that. It's pretty easy to find designers' commentary in written or video form from any games company apart from GW. I've never run a business but surely just making a product and crossing your fingers that people will come running with their wallets open is wildly optimistic if not negligent.

re: Northstar. That's ironic considering they are making the minis for Frostgrave which fits the bill for a Mordheim replacement. But GW didn't want any money from Mordheim players...

That's their "castle and moat" strategy.

They still live in an age where the internet is just a fad, where stores are the only means of recruiting and playing, and where every non-GW establishment is just a leach, sucking their precious sales away. They have yet to understand that the internet is a big thing and that their competitors er growing because they embrace it, particularly the social media.

No, it doesn't make any sense whatsoever. But that's how it is...

ehlijen
14-07-2015, 11:10
That's their "castle and moat" strategy.

They still live in an age where the internet is just a fad, where stores are the only means of recruiting and playing, and where every non-GW establishment is just a leach, sucking their precious sales away. They have yet to understand that the internet is a big thing and that their competitors er growing because they embrace it, particularly the social media.

No, it doesn't make any sense whatsoever. But that's how it is...

I don't think that's accurate, sorry. Given what they're doing to their stores (smaller, more out the way, chronically understaffed by design) and now their free rules releases for AoS, I think that has changed. Too late, and not in a way many wanted it, I think, but they are coming around.

Sephillion
14-07-2015, 11:47
I think it may also be a form of self-selection bias:


The most anti-GW posters regarding fantasy are probably in areas/groups that already quit playing GW games, and are unlikely to be interested in returning.
The most pro-GW posters regarding fantasy are probably in areas/groups with a strong interest in the less rules/more random direction that GW was already going in, and are likely to be interested in continuing.


What I am trying to watch for in aggregate is where the balance shakes out in aggregate, and the plural of anecdote is not data.

By which I mean, we really need to think 6mo to 1yr forward about the retention rate and if GW will grow new communities with this game above and beyond what they lost in the transition and retain those going forward. If not, it is a failure. If so, it is a success.

True, Fantasy wasn't really big here, so the LGS not having sold a box when I went wasn't surprising. I also went not that long after release. It wasn't a door buster, but they might have sold some since I went.

I think of a few LGS who will not even have AoS on sale, but they also don't have much, if anything, of Fantasy.

I have no idea how it sold at the local GW store.

ewar
14-07-2015, 12:00
True, Fantasy wasn't really big here, so the LGS not having sold a box when I went wasn't surprising. I also went not that long after release. It wasn't a door buster, but they might have sold some since I went.

I think of a few LGS who will not even have AoS on sale, but they also don't have much, if anything, of Fantasy.

I have no idea how it sold at the local GW store.

Surely this is the main problem? They need to be reaching those players previously not interested in fantasy, otherwise setting fire to your existing customer base was completely pointless.

Satan
14-07-2015, 12:20
I don't think that's accurate, sorry. Given what they're doing to their stores (smaller, more out the way, chronically understaffed by design) and now their free rules releases for AoS, I think that has changed. Too late, and not in a way many wanted it, I think, but they are coming around.

I sadly think alot of people are missing the point here, thinking that free rules is some kind of argument in favor of GW - they're hardly doing anything new here considering the rules for Infinity have been free online for years, and that includes the full rules...

Miredorf
14-07-2015, 12:26
There was a small schism in the community after the infamous 7th edition VC, DE and DoC. 2 years later, come 8th, there was a bigger schism between those who disliked 8th and those who wanted to stick on (declaring how much they loved it in a natural response to all the hate). Finally AoS comes and we have an even bigger schism, where apparently most people are giving up this time. This coupled with the continous price rises is what has killed fantasy i think.

Unfortunately Kirby is right when he said people's real hobby is just to buy things from GW, right enough to keep the company turning over 100M pounds every year.

The bearded one
14-07-2015, 14:31
Reception over here has been in the realm of "ehhh.. i'm not 100% enthused yet", but we did have a pretty large fantasy community, so the store sood around 2 dozen boxes in preorders. Maybe a bunch more after the midnight release. I wouldn't know how much they've sold now that we're half a week further though.

f2k
14-07-2015, 18:25
I don't think that's accurate, sorry. Given what they're doing to their stores (smaller, more out the way, chronically understaffed by design) and now their free rules releases for AoS, I think that has changed. Too late, and not in a way many wanted it, I think, but they are coming around.

Releasing free rules (all four pages of them) doesn't change the "castle and moat" strategy at all.

Indeed, I would argue that it actually shows that they've entrenched themselves even more than usual. Was Age of Sigmar really what the players wanted? Was the "Sigmarines" really what the players wanted? Did Games Workshop, in any way whatsoever, try to reach out to the players? Did they, try to engage the community? The social networks?

The answer to all of those questions is a resounding "no".

What we have then, is a picture of a company that seems to be aware that something's wrong, but doesn't have a glue as to what it is, let alone how to fix it.

They still think that they can simply release stuff (whatever it might be) and the players will buy it without question. Wrongly, as it's seemed over the last few years, as not even the usual big releases could galvanize the players.

So they still behave in a highly insular manner, stubbornly holding to the belief that the players will buy anything without question, and completely ignoring their competitors.

Hoffa
14-07-2015, 19:16
As I pointed out earlier I did not think to check on release day but I know that Sunday morning our LGS* had 76 boxes in stock. Now Tuesday evening they have 72. I also think it will be interesting to watch how the book released the 18:th sells. The starter might be bought for a multitude of reasons (models can be used for a lot of stuff besides playing AoS) but the book will only be of interest to people serious about playing AoS it has no other use.

*They do mailorder and sells the box at nearly 12% off so anyone who cares about comparing prices will buy from them and not from the local GW store.

ehlijen
14-07-2015, 20:25
Releasing free rules (all four pages of them) doesn't change the "castle and moat" strategy at all.

Indeed, I would argue that it actually shows that they've entrenched themselves even more than usual. Was Age of Sigmar really what the players wanted? Was the "Sigmarines" really what the players wanted? Did Games Workshop, in any way whatsoever, try to reach out to the players? Did they, try to engage the community? The social networks?

The answer to all of those questions is a resounding "no".

What we have then, is a picture of a company that seems to be aware that something's wrong, but doesn't have a glue as to what it is, let alone how to fix it.

They still think that they can simply release stuff (whatever it might be) and the players will buy it without question. Wrongly, as it's seemed over the last few years, as not even the usual big releases could galvanize the players.

So they still behave in a highly insular manner, stubbornly holding to the belief that the players will buy anything without question, and completely ignoring their competitors.

The charge made that I was responding to was that GW didn't believe in the internet and was banking it all on their store chain. My response is simply that that is not really true anymore, given the cutbacks to the stores and the fact that they did release the new rules online.

Their unwillingness to listen to anyone has nothing to do with that claim or my response and remains their second greatest mistake (after prices).

Sephillion
14-07-2015, 20:32
As I pointed out earlier I did not think to check on release day but I know that Sunday morning our LGS* had 76 boxes in stock. Now Tuesday evening they have 72. I also think it will be interesting to watch how the book released the 18:th sells. The starter might be bought for a multitude of reasons (models can be used for a lot of stuff besides playing AoS) but the book will only be of interest to people serious about playing AoS it has no other use.

*They do mailorder and sells the box at nearly 12% off so anyone who cares about comparing prices will buy from them and not from the local GW store.

Some people might still pick the book, but not the box, if they’re not interested in the minis for instance. Others might mistake the book for a fuller rulebook and pick that first instead. You never know.


Did Games Workshop, in any way whatsoever, try to reach out to the players? Did they, try to engage the community? The social networks?

This is the biggest gripe. I think the game is flawed, but it also may have been better accepted if they had just bothered to communicate. We don’t know what’s coming, and we’re knees-deep in AoS by now. We still don’t know if the scenarios and the book will manage to provide a deeper experience than the 4-pager, it appears that older armies are set aside and are just “legacy armies”, but is that really the case? What about Slaanesh, that’s a huge change IMO! We don’t know how the rest of the game is gonna be released, and so on.

Sephillion
14-07-2015, 20:39
Double post, never mind.

de Selby
14-07-2015, 21:08
We don’t know what’s coming, and we’re knees-deep in AoS by now. We still don’t know if the scenarios and the book will manage to provide a deeper experience than the 4-pager, it appears that older armies are set aside and are just “legacy armies”, but is that really the case? What about Slaanesh, that’s a huge change IMO! We don’t know how the rest of the game is gonna be released, and so on.

GW secrecy is so fabulously good that they're releasing products for a secret game world. I don't know how many factions there will be or what they'll look like, which seems like the single most important bit of information. On a basic level I don't understand what they've made here, it's baffling.

Darnok
14-07-2015, 21:29
I don't know how many factions there will be or what they'll look like

Check the GW OS (http://www.games-workshop.com/de-DE/Warhammer).

There are four factions now, "Chaos, "Death", Destruction" and "Order". Dark Elves are in "Order", for reasons only GW knows. Try to find anything based on the previous structure of armies - you'll have a hard time. It does not make sense.

The bearded one
15-07-2015, 03:44
Check the GW OS (http://www.games-workshop.com/de-DE/Warhammer).

There are four factions now, "Chaos, "Death", Destruction" and "Order". Dark Elves are in "Order", for reasons only GW knows. Try to find anything based on the previous structure of armies - you'll have a hard time. It does not make sense.

The factions are literally the alliances of races in the End Times. (i.e. Skaven are in the chaos alliance, VC and TK with death, O&G and Ogres joined up in a big ol' horde, and all the "civilized races" were allied in opposition to the doom of the world)

dragonelf
15-07-2015, 09:42
I used to care about what happened with GW products in terms of sales because I was invested in the universe, but I have moved on. The rules being free isn't anything to me. They are virtually skeleton rules that create more work for players. If they had charged for a 4 page rules pamphlet then I would be angry. I would happily pay for a proper rulebook with proper rules in it. As it is, I wish GW a fond farewell and I'm off to privateer press. I hope people who enjoy AoS and spend their hard earned money on it, keep loving the game and having fun. As to the sales figures, they are more relevant in at least a months time. Novelty is a seller but novelty wears off.

bound for glory
15-07-2015, 16:56
as i posted on another thread, my local has sold one(1) copy as of monday the 13th. i don't go there offten but steve, the bloke what runs the place, is an old friend(in fact, going back to 1992, when he ran his own flgs). he told me he had to house a pair of hardcore whf players because they talked a father and son team out of buying the game as it was "crap rules" and invited the team to join their club for a "proper" game of warhammer.

ebbwar
15-07-2015, 18:11
The factions are literally the alliances of races in the End Times. (i.e. Skaven are in the chaos alliance, VC and TK with death, O&G and Ogres joined up in a big ol' horde, and all the "civilized races" were allied in opposition to the doom of the world)

But Vlad and Co. were busy helping the Empire in the End Times. So Undead should be in order then! ;)

The bearded one
15-07-2015, 18:31
But Vlad and Co. were busy helping the Empire in the End Times. So Undead should be in order then! ;)

I'd suppose they're seperate enough to warrant being their own faction - especially because apparently in Age of Sigmar Nagash has broken off again. It was truly an alliance of convenience between order and death, and the death faction does spend almost all of the end times as their own seperate storyline with their own goals. Only aiding the order faction in order to further their own strategic goals.

In that sense they could've kept dark elves seperate too, but that'd be a 1-army faction, and the dark elves did split up to different sides during the end times, some of them figting alongside the high elves, and almost all the dark elves merging into the host of the eternity king.

Nagash's faction wasn't really interwoven with the rest of order the way the dark elves were.

ebbwar
16-07-2015, 00:24
I'd suppose they're seperate enough to warrant being their own faction - especially because apparently in Age of Sigmar Nagash has broken off again. It was truly an alliance of convenience between order and death, and the death faction does spend almost all of the end times as their own seperate storyline with their own goals. Only aiding the order faction in order to further their own strategic goals.

In that sense they could've kept dark elves seperate too, but that'd be a 1-army faction, and the dark elves did split up to different sides during the end times, some of them figting alongside the high elves, and almost all the dark elves merging into the host of the eternity king.

Nagash's faction wasn't really interwoven with the rest of order the way the dark elves were.

Or put Dark Elves in Destruction as they are the evil, destructive, bordering on chaos Elves. The AoS 'fluff' could always be written that the Dark Elves went back to their naughty ways...

RandomThoughts
16-07-2015, 07:20
Or put Dark Elves in Destruction as they are the evil, destructive, bordering on chaos Elves. The AoS 'fluff' could always be written that the Dark Elves went back to their naughty ways...

Actually, an evil faction inside Order for political reasons sounds pretty interesting to me. Otherwise it's just the same old black & white...

ebbwar
16-07-2015, 11:18
But then when the Elves get fleshed out properly in PoS, I can see High/Wood/Dark Elves vanishing. The existing ranges are simply placeholders until phased out :/

Darnok
17-07-2015, 08:01
Closing this one, in favour of a newer thread on the same topic (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?411652-Any-news-on-how-sales-are-going). Please take any remaining discussions over there.


Darnok [=I=]
The WarSeer Inquisition