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Prodigalson
09-07-2015, 20:26
I was listening to the Eye of Horus podcast and they talked about the Dark Angels losing 50K marines during the great crusade due to some Genocide that happened in the north of the Imperium. Can anyone with Book V: Tempest cut and paste or tell me about it. They apparently went from being one of the biggest (if not the biggest) chapters to being of moderate strength due to it.

Thanks!

Commissar Goddard
09-07-2015, 20:38
Year 899.M30. So before the Ultramarines became such a massive Legion. Mentions the Ultramarines being approximately 166,000 marines.

Page 96 of Tempest.
'The Dark Angels, who in the previous decade to this had been undoubtedly the most powerful single Legion, had fallen in number and evened this figure, having suffered massive causualties holding the line during the famed Third Rangdan Xenocide; the blood of 50,000 Space Marines spent in preventing the destruction of perhaps the entire northern Imperium by the menace from the outer darkness'

nagash66
09-07-2015, 20:55
Sounds like what would happen when the Nids came if the legions were still around.

7788
09-07-2015, 23:35
I wonder why the particular piece in Tempest is called "The Debt of Vengeance". As noted, it seems the threat the DA defeated could have been exo-galactic ("outer darkness"). Re-reading this, the DA pre-Xenocide (c. 889M.30) were about 215000 strong? ("evened" the UM number of 166000).

Nazguire
09-07-2015, 23:45
I wonder why the particular piece in Tempest is called "The Debt of Vengeance". As noted, it seems the threat the DA defeated could have been exo-galactic ("outer darkness"). Re-reading this, the DA pre-Xenocide (c. 889M.30) were about 215000 strong? ("evened" the UM number of 166000).

I thought the Ultramarines were 250K? That's what Know No Fear taught us - 25 Chapter Masters of 10 Companies, each Company 1000 strong?

Commissar Goddard
10-07-2015, 00:04
I thought the Ultramarines were 250K? That's what Know No Fear taught us - 25 Chapter Masters of 10 Companies, each Company 1000 strong?

They were around 250,000 by the outbreak of Heresy and the battle of Calth, which didn't happen until 007M.31 I believe. So there was over a century of recruitment to reach those numbers.

Jack of Blades
10-07-2015, 00:31
I wouldn't pay much heed to the numbers and more to the event. I never thought the numbers of space marines (nor Imperial Army personnel) made sense... explanation within spoiler, number I think there should be below the spoiler:

If the average strength of a legion was 100 000 there were 1,8 million space marines in a galaxy containing untold numbers of worlds and enemies. I think for it to make sense, especially considering that they're still around after the horrific losses they took during the Great Crusade and Horus Heresy (seriously, how many disasters can they suffer and still have marines around?). Even if a space marine is the equivalent of 100 enemy warriors assuming they can resist them, you would think that a world populated by an intelligent species has numbers ranging in the several or tens of billions and that would only be one world.

So if a space marine can on average take on 100 enemies and lets say 100 000 of a legion are deployed to conquer a world, this means that they can destroy 10 000 000 or ten million enemies. Even if a space marine can take out 1000 enemies, that is 100 000 000 or a hundred million enemies - even our world in the 21st century would be able to field vastly more soldiers than that, and then you consider that there may be more worlds supporting it. A space marine legion would need to number 1 million to take out a billion enemies at the cost of being all but wiped out themselves. This means that the lowest figure for a legion to be an effective fighting force if we assume each marine can take out 1000 enemies, considering the warlike and numerous xenos and renegades they were going up against, would need to be at least in the millions. And the destruction of massive Ork/xenos empires or even lesser organisations would need tens of millions of space marines unless we want to mathematically accept that each marine can take out tens of thousands of enemies and survive.

Let's be generous and say that there were 2 million marines and each single marine can take on 10 000 enemies by himself. That means the Imperium's entire content of marines could at the cost of wiping themselves out in the course, take on 2 000 000 000 0 - or twenty billion - enemies. What would happen if they needed to destroy an Ork empire, to which twenty billion would be less than what a single world could support? and this is assuming each space marine can take out ten thousand enemies by himself. For the numbers to make sense and for the tragedy that was the Horus Heresy to truly be conveyed as Mankind was undone by itself, each legion would need to number in the millions to tens of millions depending on whether they can take out between say ten thousand to a thousand enemies, or less. And as a footnote, the Imperial Army would feasibly need to number in the tens of billions and grow steadily as more worlds need to be garrisoned and more battlefields supplemented - not in the few to somewhat more than half a dozen million range that they are usually portrayed with.

So in conclusion... a more fitting catastrophe for the Dark Angels assuming they lost 1/3-1/2 of their number and a single astartes is good for 10 000 enemies would be to lose something like 3-5 million legionnaires assuming that as one of the more populous legions they had a strength of around 10 million. A fighting strength of 10 million would, again if each astartes can take out 10 000 enemies, be good for 10 billion enemies which should not really be that many in the far future (and both sides would according to that exchange wipe each other out, so the space marines wouldn't even "win" there). And if you think 10 million marines is a lot and if this was the case then nothing would be a challenge as the legions could just band together in case they encountered serious resistance, again I think I am being very generous as to the amount of enemies a single astartes can take out by putting it at 10 000 - the real number is probably lower, and 10 billion defenders would likely be a low number for even a single world of many (but certainly not all as there are vast differences between creatures) civilizations/species in the far future.

Nazguire
10-07-2015, 00:37
Numbers have never been GW's strongpoint.

Scribe of Khorne
10-07-2015, 01:00
Heh indeed. I just love, love! that by the end of this it goes to "A thousand Chapters, each of a thousand Marines to police the Imperium"

The numbers the Siege of Terra will throw at us, will be hilarity.

Jack of Blades
10-07-2015, 01:30
Heh indeed. I just love, love! that by the end of this it goes to "A thousand Chapters, each of a thousand Marines to police the Imperium"

The numbers the Siege of Terra will throw at us, will be hilarity.

:p Yeah, the Siege of Terra should have an amount of space marines that number in the hundreds of millions, and a total amount of daemons, traitors and imperial soldiers that number in the untold hundreds of billions or even trillions as hundreds of billions can be the population of just one hive world and the Imperium especially at that time is said to have contained worlds in the millions.

Such is the terrible scale of death and destruction in the nightmare of the far future.

If each space marine is the equal of 10 000 foes, then to destroy an enemy army of 10 000 000 000 (ten billion) at a casualty ratio of 10:1 would require there to be 10 000 000 (ten million) space marines facing them: ten billion divided by ten thousand = one million, one million times ten so each marine needs to kill 10 000 instead of 100 000 foes = ten million. So the size of a standard legion should probably be no less than 10 million or else its entire might would be inadequate to take on even a very small Ork horde. If each space marine is the equal of 1000 and not 10 000 foes, then increase the size of an average legion from at least ten to at least a hundred million.

Zustiur
10-07-2015, 03:40
Don't forget, not every star has habitable worlds. Not every planet has a population in the billions.
To conquer a planet may not even require protected combat. Decapitation of planetary government is a thing. Especially when your army can drop pod into the hands and bypass all defensive perimeters.
Sent via Tapatalk 2

Jack of Blades
10-07-2015, 03:44
Don't forget, not every star has habitable worlds. Not every planet has a population in the billions.
To conquer a planet may not even require protected combat. Decapitation of planetary government is a thing. Especially when your army can drop pod into the hands and bypass all defensive perimeters.
Sent via Tapatalk 2

That's right, I (mentally) counted with the fact that they would not have to fight against billions every time they have a target. But on the other hand what about when they do need to destroy an Ork WAAAAGH! numbering in the hundreds of billions or trillions, put down an insurrection of a star system with tens or hundreds of billions or soldiers or destroy a xenos empire?

jareddm3
10-07-2015, 03:48
Then you also have the support of tens of millions of soldiers of the Imperial Army, the Taghmata Omnissiah, the Knight Households, and the Titan Legios.

Major Richard Sharpe
10-07-2015, 09:12
Then you also have the support of tens of millions of soldiers of the Imperial Army, the Taghmata Omnissiah, the Knight Households, and the Titan Legios.

What he said. The Imperial Armed forces are supposed to operate in tandem with each other. Sure, Marines might only form a tiny amount of the troops proportionally compared with the other departments, but the other forces bring to the table things that marines aren't capable of doing.

Jack of Blades
10-07-2015, 09:59
What he said. The Imperial Armed forces are supposed to operate in tandem with each other. Sure, Marines might only form a tiny amount of the troops proportionally compared with the other departments, but the other forces bring to the table things that marines aren't capable of doing.

Still not enough to make the numbers believable relative to the feats the space marines are described as accomplishing. The Luna Wolves wiping out the Interex, a civilization spanning thirty star systems? The Ullanor Crusade which deployed 100 000 space marines, 8 million imperial army soldiers, some titan legions, space ships and millions of support personnel against an entire Ork empire that can contain tens and hundreds of billions of war-capable Orks on just a single world? The marines are the frontline troops, the bulwark of the Great Crusade with the other troops described as support for the most part. It can't make sense that there would be less than millions of them in each legion.

Major Richard Sharpe
10-07-2015, 10:19
Still not enough to make the numbers believable relative to the feats the space marines are described as accomplishing. The Luna Wolves wiping out the Interex, a civilization spanning thirty star systems? The Ullanor Crusade which deployed 100 000 space marines, 8 million imperial army soldiers, some titan legions, space ships and millions of support personnel against an entire Ork empire that can contain tens and hundreds of billions of war-capable Orks on just a single world? The marines are the frontline troops, the bulwark of the Great Crusade with the other troops described as support for the most part. It can't make sense that there would be less than millions of them in each legion.

Apart from Games Workshop being shoddy with numbers? Marines are shock troops. Force a breach, killing off command units etc, that's what they are meant to do. Against orks, you kill off their leaders and watch them fall apart killing one another, at Ullanor, that's exactly what happened, the Ork warlord got killed by Horus and his entire first company, which resulted in the ork command structure immediately fragmented. Besides, according to Index Astartes, it was only 'dozens' of ork occupied planets, knowing the imperium, who held space superiority, it was probably just a case of bombing those planets from orbit with no regard for collateral damage before landing troops to deal with the remaining orks (who are also probably killing one another from said loss of warboss). Against the interex, it was genocide, which means the majority of opponents would be civilians. Humans nowadays are already brilliant at killing one another, especially civilians. I would imagine marines are slightly more efficient at killing civilians.

7788
10-07-2015, 13:43
Indeed. Also, war is not strictly a numbers game. And the statement "each SM can best 100 normal men" I think should not be taken literally, but as artistic license of the magnitude of difference between an SM army and a "normal" army. Another factor that evens the odds is strategic/tactical planning and originality. As you know, SM are led by the most brilliant, original, and capable generals in anyone's history, the Primarchs. What? You don't know that? I don't blame you... since Primarchs have been written by GW mostly as primadonnas (with very few exceptions), it's hard to figure out where exactly their genius lies.

Major Richard Sharpe
10-07-2015, 22:09
I prefer to stick with the one marine is equal to ten human troops line. "Give me a hundred Space Marines. Or failing that give me a thousand other troops".

Killgore
10-07-2015, 22:17
Year 899.M30. So before the Ultramarines became such a massive Legion. Mentions the Ultramarines being approximately 166,000 marines.

Page 96 of Tempest.
'The Dark Angels, who in the previous decade to this had been undoubtedly the most powerful single Legion, had fallen in number and evened this figure, having suffered massive causualties holding the line during the famed Third Rangdan Xenocide; the blood of 50,000 Space Marines spent in preventing the destruction of perhaps the entire northern Imperium by the menace from the outer darkness'



Sounds like an excuse for some Legion v Tyranid battles :P

Alot like the old 4th edition fluff with ancient Warlord titans having Bio-plasma damage against a forgotten foe.

7788
11-07-2015, 14:20
I prefer to stick with the one marine is equal to ten human troops line. "Give me a hundred Space Marines. Or failing that give me a thousand other troops".

I vaguely remember that. IIRC it was supposedly stated by "Commander" or "General" Dorn (or Guilliman, I forget). Very early, was it Rogue Trader? Book of the Astronomican? 2nd ed.?

7788
11-07-2015, 14:20
Sorry, double post.

Poncho160
11-07-2015, 17:35
It can't be stated enough how devastating it would be for a country's armed forces if it lost its command infrastructure. Something marines specialise at.

Without a functioning command, the armed forces wouldn't be able to coordinate any form of defence or counter attack and could be picked off peace meal.

If the imperial forces were to attack earth, the first targets would be to take out the command structures of the NATO, Russian and Chinese forces. That's an afternoons work for the space marines. Everything could be picked off at leisure then by the imperial army, with marines being used to crack any hard nuts.

Major Richard Sharpe
11-07-2015, 21:57
It can't be stated enough how devastating it would be for a country's armed forces if it lost its command infrastructure. Something marines specialise at.

Without a functioning command, the armed forces wouldn't be able to coordinate any form of defence or counter attack and could be picked off peace meal.

If the imperial forces were to attack earth, the first targets would be to take out the command structures of the NATO, Russian and Chinese forces. That's an afternoons work for the space marines. Everything could be picked off at leisure then by the imperial army, with marines being used to crack any hard nuts.

Exactly, command units and rear echelon support units are generally the 'squishy belly'. It doesn't matter if in theatre the Space marine are outnumbered 1000 to one, if in their theatre of operations their mission is hitting 'squishy' units, they might 'only' be outnumbered 5 to 1, and marines are capable of surviving such odds and remain operational.

Poncho160
11-07-2015, 22:57
Exactly, command units and rear echelon support units are generally the 'squishy belly'. It doesn't matter if in theatre the Space marine are outnumbered 1000 to one, if in their theatre of operations their mission is hitting 'squishy' units, they might 'only' be outnumbered 5 to 1, and marines are capable of surviving such odds and remain operational.

If we take Britain as an example, Marines could easily take out the goverment and and the military Chiefs of Staff in a matter of minutes. Sure there are probably contingencies, but with no direct orders coming from anyone utter chaos would ensue and there would be no organised defence.

One squad of marines to take out the Parliament and the House of Lords, one to take out Whitehall and one to take out Andover. Tactical strikes on Aldershot, Portsmouth, Brize Norton and Catterick by the Imperial Navy seal the deal. 30 Marines and it's game over Britain. If the British armed forces did put up a resistance the Navy and Imperial Army would be used to destroy the uncoordinated defence.

If the rest of the planet dosent concede after one of the best armed forces is brought to its knees in a matter of hours, move onto the next country till goverments get the idea that working with the imperium might not be such a bad idea.

Major Richard Sharpe
11-07-2015, 23:11
If we take Britain as an example, Marines could easily take out the goverment and and the military Chiefs of Staff in a matter of minutes. Sure there are probably contingencies, but with no direct orders coming from anyone utter chaos would ensue and there would be no organised defence.

One squad of marines to take out the Parliament and the House of Lords, one to take out Whitehall and one to take out Andover. Tactical strikes on Aldershot, Portsmouth, Brize Norton and Catterick by the Imperial Navy seal the deal. 30 Marines and it's game over Britain. If the British armed forces did put up a resistance the Navy and Imperial Army would be used to destroy the uncoordinated defence.

If the rest of the planet dosent concede after one of the best armed forces is brought to its knees in a matter of hours, move onto the next country till goverments get the idea that working with the imperium might not be such a bad idea.

Of course, in 40k it is best to operate under the assumption that the defenders will have anti-orbital defences planetside, and a probability (depending on planetary wealth and status) that they might have their own space borne naval assets. Naturally, one should also take into account 'rare' circumstances, for example, the defenders having superior psychic support or technology.

7788
11-07-2015, 23:40
Sorry for continuing the off-topic angle.

Apart from the fact that commando ops is an established part of military doctrine anywhere since forever, (and therefore expected) the critical factor is intelligence. If you don't know who/where the leadership is (or how well protected they are) you're shooting blanks. Outside the AL the others are plain idiots when it comes to MI. Plus, as the GC was stretching into centuries you"d have to assume (if you are one of 19 super-intelligent Primarchs) that the element of surprise would be progressively diluted. Sure, GW makes its money by selling (primarily) miniatures. This discussion does nothing to sell the next Primarch model. But anyway.

ANY planet wide military/government will have redundant command structures (both in material & human assets). Again, intelligence is paramount. We are using one such redundant strategic asset right now. As you probably know the internet was decentralized by design. It was one of the Pentagon requirements that the internetwork had to be survivable (after an incoming massive nuclear strike).

Grimdark.

Russell's teapot
12-07-2015, 18:33
I'm sure that holds in 2k earth, but in a paranoid 40k universe I expect that command structures for non military assets are designed to be centralised. If a planet goes rogue then it's a good chance that a mental dictator, who you've put in place is the culprit. Hit the establishment centre hard and it all falls apart.

If it turns out it wasn't your man in charge, well he's dead, but was obviously incompetent, and you can then go after the real threat.

I would have thought that that is how the Imperium would design it...

7788
12-07-2015, 19:42
... in a paranoid 40k universe ...

We're discussing 30K not 40K. People have suggested that Legions in the GC would be involved in special-forces type operations. This is not true. According to the lore Legions were spearheads, frontline combat troops, not commando. Some units in some situations undertook commando missions, but that doesn't change the Legions' remit as the lore has consistently described it.

The question whether GW has handled Legion strength properly (it hasn't imo) is something else again. But just because Legion numbers may not make sense, we can't just invent, fan-fiction like, new mission profiles for them to make their numbers fit. That is GW's job, not ours. We can only clarify where the lore is nonsensical or inconsistent. And take GW to task for that.

Major Richard Sharpe
12-07-2015, 22:38
I'm sure that holds in 2k earth, but in a paranoid 40k universe I expect that command structures for non military assets are designed to be centralised. If a planet goes rogue then it's a good chance that a mental dictator, who you've put in place is the culprit. Hit the establishment centre hard and it all falls apart.

If it turns out it wasn't your man in charge, well he's dead, but was obviously incompetent, and you can then go after the real threat.

I would have thought that that is how the Imperium would design it...

I agree with you here. It is likely that given how authoritarian the Imperium is, military and civilian authority is likely to be intertwined to some level. Hence the constant references to 'decapitation strikes'. For the amusement of the general public, i generally assume the Imperium to function like the Late Roman Empire combined with Warlord Era China.

Nazguire
13-07-2015, 14:34
We're discussing 30K not 40K. People have suggested that Legions in the GC would be involved in special-forces type operations. This is not true. According to the lore Legions were spearheads, frontline combat troops, not commando. Some units in some situations undertook commando missions, but that doesn't change the Legions' remit as the lore has consistently described it.

The question whether GW has handled Legion strength properly (it hasn't imo) is something else again. But just because Legion numbers may not make sense, we can't just invent, fan-fiction like, new mission profiles for them to make their numbers fit. That is GW's job, not ours. We can only clarify where the lore is nonsensical or inconsistent. And take GW to task for that.

Your originalist interpretation of GW background is very Antonin Scalia.

7788
13-07-2015, 15:13
Your originalist interpretation of GW background is very Antonin Scalia.

Well it's not about me, is it? Do you have anything to say on-topic?

Prodigalson
13-07-2015, 16:18
Thanks for this. I can't wait to read the final background on the DA, should be really interesting!

Major Richard Sharpe
14-07-2015, 03:34
Your originalist interpretation of GW background is very Antonin Scalia.

It's his trademark. It is a tradition on this board for 7788 to criticize and attempt to shut down any debate and discourse that involves critical non mainstream thinking. Despite friendly reminders from other users and mods that such alternative thinking is actually legal and legitimate.

agurus1
15-07-2015, 03:40
I think that the numbers can still be accurate, even if the Legions are used as a frontline force. Consider, if the average Legionary is worth 100 normal soldiers, dropping a single marine into a room is equivalent to dropping 100 soldiers into that room. Legionnaires in 30k had the mobility and technology to achieve local superiority very quickly and often quicker than opposition forces. If they were fighting a horde of greenskins say, 1000 Orks. 50 Legionnaires in a Thunderhawk could be deposited on flanks or in prepared or advantageous positions where their force projection would be greater than that of the localized threat. So putting 50 marines on a flank where there are 250 Orks, and then tactically withdrawing before the main force arrives is a thing that can happen.

Or as the fluff shows us like the very first book of the HH series, a larger Legion force (several thousand) assaulted from orbit directly into the "Emperors" palace, bypassing traditional prepared defenses. Even if the palace was the size of Washington D.C., with all the attendant security, 1000 Legionnaires hot-dropping into the Capitol is equivalent to placing 100,000 highly trained troops their near instantaneously, with little to no warning beforehand.

Thousands of marines, even an entire Legion could be used similarly, dropping the whole Luna Wolves legion into the center of a Waagh to decapitate the C&C is a valid strategy, especially if the millions of Orks that surround said Legion will become apprehensive, and fearful after their leader is eliminated. It's just precision tactics on a larger scale if you will.

Major Richard Sharpe
15-07-2015, 04:18
I think that the numbers can still be accurate, even if the Legions are used as a frontline force. Consider, if the average Legionary is worth 100 normal soldiers, dropping a single marine into a room is equivalent to dropping 100 soldiers into that room. Legionnaires in 30k had the mobility and technology to achieve local superiority very quickly and often quicker than opposition forces. If they were fighting a horde of greenskins say, 1000 Orks. 50 Legionnaires in a Thunderhawk could be deposited on flanks or in prepared or advantageous positions where their force projection would be greater than that of the localized threat. So putting 50 marines on a flank where there are 250 Orks, and then tactically withdrawing before the main force arrives is a thing that can happen.

Or as the fluff shows us like the very first book of the HH series, a larger Legion force (several thousand) assaulted from orbit directly into the "Emperors" palace, bypassing traditional prepared defenses. Even if the palace was the size of Washington D.C., with all the attendant security, 1000 Legionnaires hot-dropping into the Capitol is equivalent to placing 100,000 highly trained troops their near instantaneously, with little to no warning beforehand.

Thousands of marines, even an entire Legion could be used similarly, dropping the whole Luna Wolves legion into the center of a Waagh to decapitate the C&C is a valid strategy, especially if the millions of Orks that surround said Legion will become apprehensive, and fearful after their leader is eliminated. It's just precision tactics on a larger scale if you will.

No disagreement there from me. Although, as i have stated earlier. I prefer the 'one marine equals to 10 human troops' idea.

Russell's teapot
15-07-2015, 09:44
I'm always wary of a Space Marine being "worth" X amount of other soldiers.

They have different roles for the most part so a direct comparison is kind of pointless.

I'm not particularly invested in the Horus Heresy series (I happen to prefer a 10,000 year old mystery over a poorly executed blow by blow account), but even at that point with however many bazillion Space Marines there were, there must have been base line human armies after the initial push from earth. Garrisoning large numbers of Space Marines on conquered worlds is a waste of manpower, and technological and logistical resource - you're better off garrisoning a force of regular Imperial Army who can "win hearts and minds", then train up local forces ready for the implementation of the tithe system.

Space Marine armies may have been prevalent in the early part of the Great Crusade. But as time goes on, the expanding sphere of conquest means that there must have been an exponential increase in Imperial Army involvement meaning that Space Marines become the needle to the hammer of the Guard. For every world with an advanced tech human or xeno civilisation to be conquered or eradicated by Space Marines, there must be hundreds where the inhabitants are hitting each other over the head with rocks or building trebuchets - the Imperial Army would have huge involvement in this, but those books wouldn't sell as well.

By the time we get to 40k and all branches of the Imperial war machine are defensive and reactive rather than a proactive conquering force, the differences in role becomes much more pronounced.

Major Richard Sharpe
15-07-2015, 09:59
I'm always wary of a Space Marine being "worth" X amount of other soldiers.

They have different roles for the most part so a direct comparison is kind of pointless.

I'm not particularly invested in the Horus Heresy series (I happen to prefer a 10,000 year old mystery over a poorly executed blow by blow account), but even at that point with however many bazillion Space Marines there were, there must have been base line human armies after the initial push from earth. Garrisoning large numbers of Space Marines on conquered worlds is a waste of manpower, and technological and logistical resource - you're better off garrisoning a force of regular Imperial Army who can "win hearts and minds", then train up local forces ready for the implementation of the tithe system.

Space Marine armies may have been prevalent in the early part of the Great Crusade. But as time goes on, the expanding sphere of conquest means that there must have been an exponential increase in Imperial Army involvement meaning that Space Marines become the needle to the hammer of the Guard. For every world with an advanced tech human or xeno civilisation to be conquered or eradicated by Space Marines, there must be hundreds where the inhabitants are hitting each other over the head with rocks or building trebuchets - the Imperial Army would have huge involvement in this, but those books wouldn't sell as well.

By the time we get to 40k and all branches of the Imperial war machine are defensive and reactive rather than a proactive conquering force, the differences in role becomes much more pronounced.

Definitely true as well. Leaving marines as garrison forces is a waste of resources, mainly because they are too few and over-qualified. I think the numbers comparison is a general summary. Like instead of needing a larger number of paratroopers to undertake commando operations, you might only need a significantly smaller amount of Marines. 40k military operations are quite similar to how the Late roman Empire handled security operations so that's what i use as a 'bench mark reference'.

Russell's teapot
15-07-2015, 11:22
Fair enough.

But I think the only 40k IG/SM comparison can be made for Kasrkin/Stormtroopers v's Space Marines, as they have a similar role. You can throw billions of IG grunts at an impenetrable fortress, whereas SM or stormtroopers (x 10 or x 1000 depending on your flavour) can teleport/ airdrop/ drop pod/ hand waive straight into the heart of the beast.

Major Richard Sharpe
15-07-2015, 21:55
Fair enough.

But I think the only 40k IG/SM comparison can be made for Kasrkin/Stormtroopers v's Space Marines, as they have a similar role. You can throw billions of IG grunts at an impenetrable fortress, whereas SM or stormtroopers (x 10 or x 1000 depending on your flavour) can teleport/ airdrop/ drop pod/ hand waive straight into the heart of the beast.

Agreed. A good point of reference is instead of needing a couple of Stormtroop platoons (with the necessary airsupport for deployment and extraction and aircover) to wipe out someones HQ, you could hypothetically just teleport in a couple of terminators for the same but possibly quicker result.

Nazguire
15-07-2015, 22:30
Well it's not about me, is it? Do you have anything to say on-topic?

Not particularly. I just get mildly amused that when the mods have told us it's ok to talk about 'what if' scenarios, you take to every other thread to decry this stance, as if GW background is inviolate and sacred. Much like Scalia and the US Constitution.

I just find the whole thing lovely to read.