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itcamefromthedeep
13-07-2015, 00:36
I think this is an important perspective, particularly in light of the developments around Age of Sigmar and the shift in style at GW between the 90s and now.
Tuomas Pirinen, Brutal Deluxe Game Design

MORDHEIM DESIGN NOTES -15 YEARS LATER

Ask and you shall be given: over the years I've received so much feedback and fan mail for Mordheim that I've been meaning to write my own reflections on the game. The people have been really curious about the birth of the game and what led to creation of a product that was quite unusual for the GW product line-up at that time.

IN THE BEGINNING...
Mordhem was started with a model of a burned-out, ruined city, made of Mighty Empire pieces and custom houses the Perry twins when brainstorming the history of the Old World. Rick Priestley (whose help in getting the game published was vital) and I had just had a good laugh at all the year 2000 religious cults that were prophesying the end of the world and we thought it would be really funny that in the Warhammer world the same thing happened -except all the portents of doom were real and something apocalyptic DID happen.

We looked at the history of the Old World and realized that year 2000 was perfect for a setting of the game: the Empire was fragmented, magic was illegal, and Chaos was ascendant. Thus the setting of Mordheim was born, and the twin-taled comet, the traditional symbol of Sigmar the patron god of the Empire became once again one of the prominent symbols of the Warhammer World, restored to its rightful place in the iconograhy of games industry.

THE PRE-PRODUCTION
The first thing that comes to mind when I think of Mordheim is how it sparked off the creativity at the HQ. The whole Studio was energized, especially the artists who (led by mighty John Blanche) really let it rip with Mordheim Art, blending the old Realms of Chaos spirit with the modern Warhammer look and feel.

People literally worked late hours against the wishes of the management: Gav Thorpe crafted some excellent stories that also became the basis of the Ulli and Marquand comics. Rick Priestley wrote absolutely cracking background to the Witch Hunters which still makes me chuckle when I read it today. Me and Alessio played countless matches and discussed how to blend skirmish wargaming with narrative. I worked with Alan Merret and others designing a way to create affordable and extremely flexible plastic sprues for the Warbands. We poured over dozens of history books detailing the end of the world prophecies and the times when the black plague devastated much of the Europe, to create the atmosphere for the game and its art.

We put enormous effort into the symbolism of the art and the writing -the fish that you see everywhere was not just a unifying visual element, but they also represented the souls of the people of Mordheim where the powers of Chaos and Sigmar vied for them.

THE RULES
I think most Warhammer fans remember me mainly for my efforts to balance the 6th edition of Warhammer and to bring back the importance of troops. This is because normally when I design game rules I start with the mechanics and establish the maximum and minimum values for all game parameters and then try to break them through external playtesting, writing some simple excel calculations and keep tweaking them so that the core rules are as balanced as possible. I also always enrolled the best tournament players I could find to read the rules like the Devil reads the Bible to find any loopholes and exploits.

But I did make a decision early on that Mordheim would be a fiction-driven game where the flavour and creativity would be given priority over strict game balance. I do not mean that I would throw away the game balance for nothing -but for example in the fiction of Mordhem armor was expensive, so I made it expensive in the game as well. This was intentional, and became more of a bragging right to the players rather than a common occurrence. At the Studio campaign a suit of armor became a bragging right and a source of many model conversions.

So instead of making the core rules first, in Mordheim I created the Warbands and their background first, and fleshed out the overarching history of Mordheim. Then we worked on the rules to bring those Warbands and their world alive on the tabletop, and create a rules framework from which the stories of those Warbands could arise.

Mordheim was never meant to be tournament game (though I've had an honor to judge several Mordheim tournaments and I thoroughly enjoyed them). I've gotten some criticism for that over the years, which is fine -players are entitled to decide which aspects of the game they appreciate, and I am a big boy, I can take constructive critcism. People have made their own versions of the game (such as Coreheim) to mould the game to their tastes, and I am fine with that: in fact I've always encouraged players to do so.

Mordheim was in many ways my attempt to blend tabletop RPGs with miniature gaming as seamlessly as I could. I've taken a plenty of flack for this approach over the years, but I do think that a designer has to stay true to his or her vision in order to create something memorable: you cannot serve two masters. Ultimately it is up to the players to decide if I succeeded, but I remain proud of Mordheim to this day: I believe I could write the rules better today, but I do think that by and large we managed to create what we set out to do.

THE ROLE OF RANDOM
In many ways, the large number of random tables throughout the game became my greatest ally. I wanted everything in the game to be risky -that's why so many items, choices and weapons in Mordheim carry a large risk factor with them. I wanted the game to create epic, memorable stories for the players to recall fondly years later. In games where the game is very rigidly controlled by players with very little randomness, you can control the balance and create a very competitive and even game akin to chess. But maximizing randomness creates situations and choices for the player to react to which he never even dreamed of encountering, and the one to marshall all their resources and imagination to deal with the unforeseen situation. An a magician Warband leader suffering from Stupidity is a situation Mordheim can throw your way, or a Vampire who has immense strength but no Toughness to deal with incoming blows. Only a game with high random factor can create these challenges and allow player to rise to the occasion -and perhaps more importantly remember it for years to come.

In many ways Mordheim was meant to be playing the dice with the gods of Chaos: they would bend the rules, make your Warband leader lose both his eyes and legs, and then laugh at your face -or even better with you, as you did your best to salvage the situation the best you can.

IF I COULD TURN BACK TIME...
I think that because the playtesting and campaign I ran at the Design Studio was very story-driven, I missed some of the things such as Skaven being equipped with endless number of slings, and did not write some things like the rules for the Steel Whips as clearly as I could have. This would have never turned Mordheim into a primarily tournament game, but would have lessened some of frustrations of players: game can have a highly narrative drive, but in my opinion rules should always be as clear and easy to use as possible.

If there is one major addition to the game I think would enhance Mordheim it is a separate section and rules for a role of the game master who pushes the campaign forward and creates scenariors and long-term goals for the players. As I did this role myself during the initial Mordheim campaign, I honestly did not see how much a Games Master who creates special scenarios enhances the game. I think I should have taken all my special scenarios, notes on running the campaign and long-term aims and goals, and I would have spent a few months to make them something anyone can use to create their own campaigns for Mordheim.

THE FUTURE
To my delight despite all the challenges more niche games face today Mordheim lives on today on the tabletops of die-hard fans, on the bookshelves of the collectors, on PC thanks to computer games, and I'd like to think in the hearts and minds of the game fanatics like me.

I am very impressed with the work that Rogue Factory are doing with the PC version of Mordheim. I think they are true inheritors of the the spirit of Mordheim, and it is good to see its popularity on Steam. Many of the Old Guard fans or Mordheim are enjoying it which warms my heart.

But most of all, I still see daily how enthusiasts and fans create their own Warbands, terrain, conversions, rules and background. It was this passion I had had for old wrinkled Dragon magazines, Rolemaster RPG critical hit tables and long sessions of Warhammer that led into my own pursuit of games as a career, and I kind of hope that perhaps my efforts in their own small way have sparked an imagination of some young designer somewhere who will continue to carry the torch of the industry far into the future.

mrtn
13-07-2015, 01:22
That's interesting. Do you have a link to the original?

MagicAngle
13-07-2015, 03:03
Thanks for sharing. Makes me all misty-eyed. Particularly in light of current events.

defunct
13-07-2015, 05:03
Really enjoyed reading, especially the part on how the pre-production phase affected the design studio. :)
Very interesting. Thanks for sharing.

Re:Armor,
I don't think the notion of armor being expensive is a problem, it's just that it should be effective for the cost and that's exactly why armor related stuff was houseruled so frequently.

Samsonov
13-07-2015, 07:24
Really interesting, and reminds me that Mordheim is virtually the only GW game I never played released during my active phase (4th ed WFB to just prior to 6th). I'd love to see similar notes from the designers of necromunda.

MiyamatoMusashi
13-07-2015, 08:07
I'm curious in what sense he thought it was "quite unusual for the GW product line-up at that time". Necromunda was already a thing, so Mordheim was just fantasy Necromunda. I don't think any of us considered it an "unusual" product when it was announced.

StygianBeach
13-07-2015, 08:18
I'm curious in what sense he thought it was "quite unusual for the GW product line-up at that time". Necromunda was already a thing, so Mordheim was just fantasy Necromunda. I don't think any of us considered it an "unusual" product when it was announced.


Agree. It was hardly a surprise when it was released..... Dreadfleet on the other hand, wow that was a surprise.

theredknight
13-07-2015, 09:10
fantastic reading. thanks for sharing.

itcamefromthedeep
13-07-2015, 12:04
That's interesting. Do you have a link to the original?

https://www.facebook.com/DesignbyTuomasPirinen/posts/1621557418092683 (https://www.facebook.com/DesignbyTuomasPirinen/posts/1621557418092683)

Here you go.

Gorbad Ironclaw
13-07-2015, 18:25
Interesting read, although I'm not sure he succeeded in his states goals. My overriding memory of Mordhiem is how broken the skaven warband I had was. And it wasn't even to do with slings or anything like that, just the Black Skavens who got completely brutal advancements and demolished everything before them.

And yeah, as people said, at the time we saw it very much as Fantasy Necromunda, it was almost expected really.

Avian
13-07-2015, 18:35
I remember that time my Hero got Multiple Injuries, which turned out to be *one* injury, which turned out to be Full Recovery. That injury table could have used a bit more work. ;)

itcamefromthedeep
14-07-2015, 00:08
A friend of mine, regarding a Mordheim campaign:
Also " or a Vampire who has immense strength but no Toughness to deal with incoming blows."

Or in our case, a vampire becoming NIGH UPON COMPLETELY INVINCIBLE.
That was mine. We may have let my warband get a few too many games in. Eventually that vampire maxed out the experience chart.

There were a few games that came down to "can the vampire break the enemy warband before the rest of my warband gets there" ... and the answer was yes.

I'd like to think that I've grown as a player since then.

I mean, I'd *like* to think that.

It clearly made for a memorable campaign though. My friends and I have fond memories of it.

ColShaw
14-07-2015, 01:14
I had a Skaven warband which didn't use the unlimited-Slings exploit, or anything... it just had a Master Assassin who, thanks to lucky advancement rolls, became a killing machine. As I recall, he ended up with 6 WS6 attacks, causing criticals on 5+, with ridiculous Initiative. He'd go through Ogre Mercenaries like they weren't even there.

The game really started to break down after a warband had 8-10 games under its belt, but it's still fun, for all that.

Snake Tortoise
14-07-2015, 10:21
I liked Mordheim, the setting was incredible. The big regret was I never got the chance to play much, if I came upon a group locally who are still playing the odd campaign now and then I'd be well up for putting together a warband

The only thing I didn't like at the time was all the new factions brought in after the game's release. Some extra factions would have been good but it felt like they were introducing everything to the point it damaged the setting a bit. Lizardmen?? I've never had a great understanding of the old Warhammer world but I can't quite figure out what lizardmen were doing in Mordheim

Denny
14-07-2015, 10:52
I had a Skaven warband which didn't use the unlimited-Slings exploit, or anything... it just had a Master Assassin who, thanks to lucky advancement rolls, became a killing machine. As I recall, he ended up with 6 WS6 attacks, causing criticals on 5+, with ridiculous Initiative. He'd go through Ogre Mercenaries like they weren't even there.

The game really started to break down after a warband had 8-10 games under its belt, but it's still fun, for all that.

Heh, I never knew Skaven were OP.
I think this was because my main enemy was Undead, and with all those Fear tests it was pretty hard to get my rats to do as they were told. :)

Harwammer
14-07-2015, 11:10
I liked Mordheim, the setting was incredible. The big regret was I never got the chance to play much, if I came upon a group locally who are still playing the odd campaign now and then I'd be well up for putting together a warband

The only thing I didn't like at the time was all the new factions brought in after the game's release. Some extra factions would have been good but it felt like they were introducing everything to the point it damaged the setting a bit. Lizardmen?? I've never had a great understanding of the old Warhammer world but I can't quite figure out what lizardmen were doing in Mordheim

I think those factions were more intended for use in alternate campaign settings but using the mordheim mechanics.

I had problems with warbands consisting of 20 orcs +troll +hired swords

and

warbands of elves that could snipe without breaking hide.

My 14 witch hunters + elf + Halfling never had the numbers to complete missions against those!

That aside,

Thanks Tuomas for being part of the creation of such an awesome game that I have taken many hours of enjoyment from and hope to continue doing so in the future!

Griefbringer
14-07-2015, 11:52
Lizardmen?? I've never had a great understanding of the old Warhammer world but I can't quite figure out what lizardmen were doing in Mordheim

Wasn't there some sort of alternative setting (Lustria - Cities of Gold) being worked on that involved foreign intruders pillaging Lizardmen ruins in Lustria? In that sort of setting Lizardmen would make very much sense (trying to reclaim their lost treasures).

Snake Tortoise
14-07-2015, 13:24
I think those factions were more intended for use in alternate campaign settings but using the mordheim mechanics.



Yea, that makes sense. I'd never thought about Mordheim but not in Mordheim


Wasn't there some sort of alternative setting (Lustria - Cities of Gold) being worked on that involved foreign intruders pillaging Lizardmen ruins in Lustria? In that sort of setting Lizardmen would make very much sense (trying to reclaim their lost treasures).

I have no idea, but that sort of thing makes a lot of sense. Wouldn't appeal to me but it would be a fun option for somebody who does want to play jungle Mordheim

TheFang
14-07-2015, 13:54
Wasn't there some sort of alternative setting (Lustria - Cities of Gold) being worked on that involved foreign intruders pillaging Lizardmen ruins in Lustria? In that sort of setting Lizardmen would make very much sense (trying to reclaim their lost treasures).
The Mordheim magazine Town Cryer had a few alternate settings. Lustria, Khemri and the wider Empire rather than just Mordheim all spring to mind.

Bloodknight
14-07-2015, 15:41
And yeah, as people said, at the time we saw it very much as Fantasy Necromunda, it was almost expected really.

Yeah, the rules were practically the same. Ditto for Gorkamorka.

Voss
14-07-2015, 16:01
Interesting, particularly the pre-production bit, since none of that seemed to carry over into the game. My memories of Mordheim are just taking empire and skaven figures (plus a few others) and pushing them around some ruins. The setting never really engaged- the wyrdstone just seemed like a cheap excuse to have otherwise meaningless battles.

It was a fun game, but the 'extra effort' for the background stuff seems odd in light of what was a less-successful Necromunda knockoff.

de Selby
14-07-2015, 21:39
I remember that time my Hero got Multiple Injuries, which turned out to be *one* injury, which turned out to be Full Recovery. That injury table could have used a bit more work. ;)

I think that's kind of brilliant, so long as it happens with low probability. I imagine a house falling on top of your guy (or whatever), and he screams and wails, and they dig him out and pick him up, and he looks horribly battered, and they brush him down and straighten out his hat, and then it turns out he's fine, actually, thanks very much.

Much more annoying is when you just randomly lose a guy (or a game) for no reason other than a meaningless dice roll.

Inquisitor Kallus
14-07-2015, 23:00
I think that's kind of brilliant, so long as it happens with low probability. I imagine a house falling on top of your guy (or whatever), and he screams and wails, and they dig him out and pick him up, and he looks horribly battered, and they brush him down and straighten out his hat, and then it turns out he's fine, actually, thanks very much.

Much more annoying is when you just randomly lose a guy (or a game) for no reason other than a meaningless dice roll.

Indeed, in real life there are accounts of people surviving events that should have killed them and been relatively unscathed. IT was an unlikely occurence Avian, but your plastic dudesman got lucky :D

Whitwort Stormbringer
15-07-2015, 07:39
My memories of Mordheim are just taking empire and skaven figures (plus a few others) and pushing them around some ruins. The setting never really engaged- the wyrdstone just seemed like a cheap excuse to have otherwise meaningless battles. The setting never really engaged- the wyrdstone just seemed like a cheap excuse to have otherwise meaningless battles.

It was a fun game, but the 'extra effort' for the background stuff seems odd in light of what was a less-successful Necromunda knockoff.

Sorry to get on your case, but I don't know if that's so much a failing of the game/setting as it is a failing of your group of players.

If you guys couldn't bother yourselves to get more invested than "wyrdstone's just money I use to buy new stuff" then I'm not sure what would have convinced you to get more into the setting. Any campaign-style skirmish game is going to have some manner of resource or reward that you can use to upgrade your characters or warband, or influence future scenarios. It can always be reduced to "a cheap excuse to have an otherwise meaningless battle" if you decide that the effect it has on your warband after the game is meaningless in the next battle.

The point of Mordheim wasn't to fight over wyrdstone and get rich, but rather to build up your warband. I always thought of it more like D&D, or any other RPG, except rather than controlling a single character you were controlling a party of characters that fought against other parties. The investment is in getting cool guys with cool stuff, and having fun things happen on the table. No different from Necromunda, in that regard, only with much more variety (and with that came poorer balance, but that's a different story).

If all you saw was pushing some Empire and skaven models around the table, then that says to me that you didn't bother to try to get into the game or setting. It's like saying your game of Necromunda just felt like pushing some Imperial Guard militia around a table. In the same way that most Necromunda gangs offer more flavor than you get from WH40k, many (most?) Mordheim warbands went beyond the army/race that they were based on in WFB, and provided extra special abilities, characters, equipment, etc. to make it more than just a microcosm of the mass-battles game.

With regards to "success," I can only speak to personal experience, but Mordheim has always seemed like the much more successful (measured by popularity) of the two, to me. I like Necromunda a lot, but I think more people would be willing to play it if the setting wasn't so limited in scope, compared to its parent universe.

Harwammer
15-07-2015, 11:38
I remember that time my Hero got Multiple Injuries, which turned out to be *one* injury, which turned out to be Full Recovery. That injury table could have used a bit more work. ;)

Was your warband themed around premiership footballers?

Ghal Maraz
15-07-2015, 14:33
Best GW cover ever. Simple and brilliant. Probably a lesson from the first White Wolf World of Darkness covers.

The setting was top-notch.

The rules were, how could I say, lacking. They should and could have tried to rework the 5th edition rules a bit more.
The problem of the discrepancy between armour cost and effectiveness could have been negated by simply going back to the 1st-3rd editions armour rules: the Strenght characteristic doesn't modify armour save. Simple as that. A return to the origins that could have benefitted Warhammer too, actually. It could have made balance a little easier to work out. (There's a reason the math formula of 1st-3rd editions worked: Initiative was significative, the huge variance in WS was significative, S only counted against T...)
I think that Necromunda worked better as a ruleset. Moreover, I liked more the fact that in Necromunda there weren't simplified Wound and advancement tables for the Warband henchmen: (it went well together with the fact that there wasn't the henchmen grouping - every gang member was an individual.) it worked better with the narrative approach, IME.

I still find it funny that the "rigorous playtesting" approach of Mr. Pirinen gave us some monstruosity such as the High Elves and Realm of Chaos Warhammer Armies books for 5th edition... :D

itcamefromthedeep
15-07-2015, 14:45
Armor was deliberately "too expensive" because the author thought that armor should be in short supply (a mark of more money than sense).

Ghal Maraz
15-07-2015, 14:59
Which is still an incredibly idiotic approach. I read that, and I found that total nonsense.

There was no need for the dichotomy. Armour was incredibly expensive AND more or less useless.

You want to make armour rare and expensive? Great. Even more so than what it should be given the benefits? Do that, for narrative purpose. But gimme back something.

Denny
15-07-2015, 16:45
Which is still an incredibly idiotic approach. I read that, and I found that total nonsense.

There was no need for the dichotomy. Armour was incredibly expensive AND more or less useless.

You want to make armour rare and expensive? Great. Even more so than what it should be given the benefits? Do that, for narrative purpose. But gimme back something.

Armour was optional. Buying was a sign that your warband was so badass that you could afford to throw money away (Dark Eldar players once called this the 'Kheradruakh Gambit' :shifty:).
You think its useless? Don't buy it.

EDIT: Plus every rare item in Nercomunda is overcosted when you buy it from the rare trading post. Its noted in the sourcebook that the random extra cost for items represents expensive beyond the item's actual worth.

Harwammer
18-07-2015, 12:42
As someone who played a witch hunter warband, there are so many crossbows/pistols/blunderbuss you can load up a single model with... at this point it's between deciding whether to spend your huge cash reserves on protecting these investments with armour, or simply stashing the cash ready to rebuy everything in case a hero dies/gets robbed.

mdauben
18-07-2015, 14:01
It was a fun game, but the 'extra effort' for the background stuff seems odd in light of what was a less-successful Necromunda knockoff.

Less successful? I can't speak for overall sales, but the shop I gamed at when Specialist Games were at their peak we had a fairly strong following for Mordheim but I never saw anyone playing Necromunda. Likewise I there are some people at my current FLGS that play Mordheim semi regularly but no one is playing Necromunda as far as I know.



From a Galaxy far, far away...

Autumn Leaves
18-07-2015, 16:03
20 years ago, a golden age for warhammer.

Griefbringer
19-07-2015, 08:23
It has only been 16 years since Mordheim was released...

tmod
19-07-2015, 12:37
I agree, it seems weird to claim Mordheim wa a less successful than Necromunda. The latter was arguably more significant as the first of GW's trio of skirmish campaign games, but the much longer shelf life, more extensive model and publication support and the vast number of third party knockoffs all point to Mordheim being amongst the more successful specialist games, second only to Blood Bowl (and possibly Battlefleet Gothic) in popularity...

Sent fra min GT-I9506 via Tapatalk

mrtn
19-07-2015, 13:48
I've always thought Mordheim's popularity was underestimated by GW. They don't do market research, so they've no way to know about the 15-20 regiment boxes my friends and I have bought for use in Mordheim. They just inflated WFB's popularity instead.

Harwammer
19-07-2015, 15:52
My empire army started as a Mordheim collection.

Bloodknight
19-07-2015, 17:35
I've always thought Mordheim's popularity was underestimated by GW. They don't do market research, so they've no way to know about the 15-20 regiment boxes my friends and I have bought for use in Mordheim. They just inflated WFB's popularity instead.

I've always said the same thing about the Dogs of War army. While many players only bought a few RoR, a lot of DoW armies were built from boxes for different armies, because the army allowed so much freedom. Sadly, those then counted as Empire, O&G, Elf or Undead sales.

The_Real_Chris
19-07-2015, 23:46
Epic A was the most successful 'specialist game' sales wise but it was launched during that period. I wouldn't have a clue about the games that launched as normal games, other than Warmaster (epic sold 400% of what Warmaster did according to Jervis).

Easy E
20-07-2015, 18:24
There is no way to gauge which of them was most popular as GW will never release the data (if they even have it).

TheFang
20-07-2015, 19:29
There is no way to gauge which of them was most popular as GW will never release the data (if they even have it).
I'd assume they had a count of blisters and boxes sold for each game but they won't tell anyone. They would be able to tell which was the most succesful "brand" but that would ignore the spin off sales. If I had to guess I'd go Necromunda as that seemed to be available in stores for the longest and seemed to get the most attention in the various fanatic/specialist publications.

Ghal Maraz
21-07-2015, 09:54
I've got the same impression. But it is just that. An impression.

My personal view of them is:
- Mordheim was a better product (higher quality, more detailed and heavily customizable models, visually-stunning cardboard-and-plastic scenario, top-notch produced rulebook, beautiful box, excellent fluff, definetely more varied basic warbands - both in terms of rules and models, straight out of the basic box);

- Necromunda was a better game (as I still think Warhammer 40.000 2nd edition was an excellent skirmish ruleset, that got some great additions for this game; please note that I think that the background for this game was excellent too, perhaps the best 2nd edition era combo of written fluff and artwork).

The_Real_Chris
21-07-2015, 11:32
Remember the Necro background started from an excellent position thanks to the Confrontation game (the way games used to be played :) ). Really it just got 40k'ed up a bit, gangs made more extreme, 2nd ed rules slapped on and away it went.

I think Blood Bowl 3rd ed, Necro and Mordhiem were all of a certain design era and ethos. Looking at how Bloodbowl developed into a true perpetual league system (not flawless, but few things are) gives an idea of where things could have gone with the other 2. I don't know if any of the home rule attempts managed to solve the ever growing gang issue.

Samsonov
21-07-2015, 18:00
I don't know if any of the home rule attempts managed to solve the ever growing gang issue.Easy. Remove the medic skill from the game. Alternatively, medic cannot be used to reroll dead (though someone who did not die on the initial role cannot then die if medic is used).

Easy E
21-07-2015, 18:39
Or the scenarios are all "random number of Gangers" that can participate. Many of the Raid missions all ready do that. You get 1d6+2 gangers per battle, as the rest are too busy doing other stuff. Gangers not int he battle also can not go to territories or the Trading Post as they are unavailable as they have to go to a Birthday party, factory job, on the lamb, too hung-over, with their girl, etc.

Another potential mechanic, is once you have over 10+ guys, you roll a 2d6 and add +1 for each ganger over 10. If you roll a 10 or better, one random guy is pinched by the Enforcers and removed from the gang. This could be part of the post-battle sequence.

The biggest drain should be WYSIWYG. Who wants to buy an army of gangers?

Angelwing
21-07-2015, 19:27
The outlanders book mentions gang retirement when they get too big, IIRC

Denny
21-07-2015, 20:03
The outlanders book mentions gang retirement when they get too big, IIRC

Yeah, if you get a gang rating over 4000 you were recommended to retire the gang (after playing some kind of epic scenario of course)

Samsonov
21-07-2015, 20:38
Yeah, if you get a gang rating over 4000 you were recommended to retire the gang (after playing some kind of epic scenario of course)I remember that being in Gorkamorka, if it was in Outlanders (which I never owned, a friend had it), well, he never mentioned it when fielding his 4,000+ rating gang!

Angelwing
21-07-2015, 22:34
Well it wasn't an actual rule as such, it was advice from Andy Chambers on running a campaign.

The_Real_Chris
22-07-2015, 01:47
Yes wasn't his gang attacked by everyone else?

Samsonov
22-07-2015, 07:41
Yes wasn't his gang attacked by everyone else?Do you mean the white dwarf battlereport where a Escher gang was ambushed by Delaque and Arbiters?

To get back on topic, there were a number of linked necromunda battle reports which did a good job of showing off the game. Did the same occur in mordheim (I have some distant memories of similar but nothing as embellished).

cornonthecob
23-07-2015, 10:27
I felt Mordheim was far superior to Necromunda.

For one scenery was more easily available (you could just grab some historical scenery), had more variety to it (more races then just 'humans with a theme'), better combat rules and more tie in to the core world that its based in.

Commissar von Toussaint
25-07-2015, 14:08
For me the key point of his essay was this line:


People literally worked late hours against the wishes of the management

What a fascinating statement. So even then GW management was wanting to crush innovation. Good to know.

Like it or hate it (I never played the game), it clearly has retained a following and required minimal resources to support.

If GW is (as it likes to say) first and foremost a miniatures company, logic suggests that offering different rules packages to sell the same figures in different configurations can only enhance the bottom line.

In retrospect, I wonder if this game marked the beginning of the end of the "Creativity and Growth" phase of GW. Ultimately it was replaced by the "Let's See How Much We Can Fleece the Customer" phase, which we still enjoy today.

Ghal Maraz
25-07-2015, 18:47
For me the key point of his essay was this line:



What a fascinating statement. So even then GW management was wanting to crush innovation. Good to know.

Like it or hate it (I never played the game), it clearly has retained a following and required minimal resources to support.

If GW is (as it likes to say) first and foremost a miniatures company, logic suggests that offering different rules packages to sell the same figures in different configurations can only enhance the bottom line.

In retrospect, I wonder if this game marked the beginning of the end of the "Creativity and Growth" phase of GW. Ultimately it was replaced by the "Let's See How Much We Can Fleece the Customer" phase, which we still enjoy today.
It should be pointed out that, at that point in time, GW was probably starting to feel the whole Tom Kirby line, not longer "polluted" by preexisting Bryan Ansell decisions.

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Whitwort Stormbringer
26-07-2015, 20:07
For me the key point of his essay was this line:

People literally worked late hours against the wishes of the management
What a fascinating statement. So even then GW management was wanting to crush innovation. Good to know.

I'm by no means a GW apologist, but this seems a bit melodramatic. I think it's pretty standard in any industry for management teams to not want their employees to work after hours/overtime unnecessarily, and I doubt they really understood the creative process, or why people would continue to work on it after hours. That's not the same as wanting to crush innovation.

I think the purpose of that statement was not to highlight how awful management was so much as to illustrate how passionate the design team got when making Mordheim.

Commissar von Toussaint
26-07-2015, 20:23
I'm by no means a GW apologist, but this seems a bit melodramatic. I think it's pretty standard in any industry for management teams to not want their employees to work after hours/overtime unnecessarily, and I doubt they really understood the creative process, or why people would continue to work on it after hours.

I disagree. Tom Kirby was a dungeonmaster back in the day (I have one of his dungeons) so he (and management) had to know that people are going to take their work home with them. Game design (especially by gamers themselves) is not a 9-5 occupation.

For your argument to hold up, one would have to believe that GW had a company policy against employees owning, painting and using their figures to play GW games on their own time, because that's when a lot of the creation would really take place.

That doesn't seem credible. A more likely interpretation is that management discouraged the project from going forward, but was willing to kill it outright or overrule the creative staff (perhaps because of morale issues that would result).

Subsequently, the hand of upper management was strengthened and they were willing to see their top talent leave. Their successors were much more pliable and willing to follow direction without raising a stink. You can say that it wasn't supposed to crush innovation, but that was the actual effect. GW, which was once a leader in new product lines and experimental gaming, is now devoid of anything new.


I think the purpose of that statement was not to highlight how awful management was so much as to illustrate how passionate the design team got when making Mordheim.

I think it was to do both. Clearly he (and the other veterans of that era) resented being stepped on by management and being overruled on design decisions.

There are some people who are willing to produce crap because they are getting paid to do so. For them, it's just a job.

There are others, however, who feel that if their name goes on it, it should be the way they want it and they would rather leave the compromise. That seems what happend with a lot of the creative staff.

de Selby
26-07-2015, 22:55
GW, which was once a leader in new product lines and experimental gaming, is now devoid of anything new.

I don't think I agree with this. Dreadfleet was new. Finecast was new. AoS is new, and what they're trying to do (to the extent I understand it at all) in terms of trying to get non-wargamers to play with their wargaming models is new. GW keeps doing really radical unexpected things in the last few years, but it doesn't seem like their new ideas are necessarily working out.

edit: thinking some more, it might be a question of where the new ideas are coming from. The design studio, or the boardroom?

Samsonov
26-07-2015, 23:37
AoS is new, and what they're trying to do (to the extent I understand it at all) in terms of trying to get non-wargamers to play with their wargaming models is new.
Yep. Badly thought out, huge risk, likely to fail, but they are definitely trying something very new. So far as I can tell, they have tried to import computer games mechanism into gaming. You don't get points World of Warcraft I believe (I've never played), you just get individuals charging at each other and most strategy is how one individual compliments another, i.e who gets 'buffed' (from what others have told me, sorry if this is all false).