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Drakkar du Chaos
13-07-2015, 13:33
Only 2000 copies worldwide but its still available...
Can we assume AoS launch is a fail ?

216999

Ghachii
13-07-2015, 14:23
I imagine lots of people will choose to assume that, but it doesn't make it true. Bear in mind that collectors editions tend to be purchased by devoted members of an entrenched fandom. Age of Sigmar doesn't have such a thing yet, due to being only a week old. It will obviously sell out eventually, but I wouldn't have expected it to sell out as quickly as the End Times books did, for example.

Griefbringer
13-07-2015, 14:31
So it has been available for pre-order for how many days?

Haravikk
13-07-2015, 17:02
The only assumption you can make is that the AoS Limited Edition's preorders are slow, and it's not hard to understand why; it's basically just the exact same book but a little bit shiny with a cardboard sleeve and the same rules references from the starter kit, for the low, low price of an extra £35. I'm not surprised that it's not selling well, as even the £45 version of the book is a pretty big ask when the important part (the rules) are free, and there's a lot of uncertainty about what the scenarios offer.

It also points to the wider problem of the incredibly lacklustre "limited edition" books that GW has been putting out lately. They really don't offer anything that's truly worthwhile, and there's pretty much zero chance of them going up in value, so it's hard to see a reason to buy them. I bought the limited edition of the 8th edition fantasy rulebook and love it, because it has its embossed leatherette cover, shiny lettering and solid brass warhammer emblem, brass clasp, bookmark ribbons and it has just the right amount of heft to it. It's still not going to go up in value, but it gives more of the impression that the extra money wasn't a total waste.

That said, what we really need from limited edition books is something totally unique that could potentially still be worth something even once the rules are obsolete. My vote would be for a book bound by brass etched plates, that comes with a lectern to sit on that also includes a compartment for a unique set of bundled dice etc. For something with that kind of thought and effort put in I'd happily pay collector's edition prices, but anything less from a limited edition just makes me wonder what the point is.

Theocracity
13-07-2015, 17:16
The only assumption you can make is that the AoS Limited Edition's preorders are slow, and it's not hard to understand why; it's basically just the exact same book but a little bit shiny with a cardboard sleeve and the same rules references from the starter kit, for the low, low price of an extra £35. I'm not surprised that it's not selling well, as even the £45 version of the book is a pretty big ask when the important part (the rules) are free, and there's a lot of uncertainty about what the scenarios offer.

It also points to the wider problem of the incredibly lacklustre "limited edition" books that GW has been putting out lately. They really don't offer anything that's truly worthwhile, and there's pretty much zero chance of them going up in value, so it's hard to see a reason to buy them. I bought the limited edition of the 8th edition fantasy rulebook and love it, because it has its embossed leatherette cover, shiny lettering and solid brass warhammer emblem, brass clasp, bookmark ribbons and it has just the right amount of heft to it. It's still not going to go up in value, but it gives more of the impression that the extra money wasn't a total waste.

That said, what we really need from limited edition books is something totally unique that could potentially still be worth something even once the rules are obsolete. My vote would be for a book bound by brass etched plates, that comes with a lectern to sit on that also includes a compartment for a unique set of bundled dice etc. For something with that kind of thought and effort put in I'd happily pay collector's edition prices, but anything less from a limited edition just makes me wonder what the point is.

Basically, yeah. I haven't seen much point in buying any special editions from GW, even if the base product is great.

Then again I've soured myself on any most special edition items in the first place. I look at the handful of special edition DVDs, video games or books I've bought in my life and think to myself that I'd much rather have saved the money and ended up with less cardboard sleeves and tchotchkes cluttering up my shelves and drawers.

Neckutter
14-07-2015, 22:25
I hope AoS dies. Which will mean bad things for the whole company, but GW needs to learn the hard way that they are a game company. AoS isn't a complete game system.

HammerofThunor
14-07-2015, 23:02
I hope AoS dies. Which will mean bad things for the whole company, but GW needs to learn the hard way that they are a game company. AoS isn't a complete game system.

You realise that makes no sense, right? What you mean is "I hope AoS fails as I want GW to focus on the gaming aspect of their products." If they're a games company and don't realise it then there is no need to "hope" for anything.

Mawduce
14-07-2015, 23:11
You realise that makes no sense, right? What you mean is "I hope AoS fails as I want GW to focus on the gaming aspect of their products." If they're a games company and don't realise it then there is no need to "hope" for anything.

Their product is the game. All their competitors realize this and that is why GW is going through something called, "The Rise of the Rest". It's something we here in America are suffering from with our economy. Only reason we are still number 1 in anything is because we are the most stable base to work off of. GW has the most stable fan base because it is the largest. That's what's holding them up. But the more and more people look for more bang for their buck, GW will suffer because that player base will shrink. We must also understand that younger people have as much a limited income as an elderly person. They see GW price tag and look at say KoW price tag, where do you think their going to throw their money? Why make board games like they are? Why make video games like they are? If GW wants me to believe they are really a model company then they need to act like it. Saying they are a model company is a cover for their investors. They can compare profits from other model companies and not games companies which are doing far better in terms of growth.

In terms of limited editions why buy the limited edition to AoS. It has no solid base to work off of, the media surrounding it are mixed, the companies sales are dropping (in every market they are in not just fantasy), and anything that is in the book that wasn't with the free stuff will be on the internet by the end of the afternoon anyway.

HammerofThunor
14-07-2015, 23:24
Right, so if you're right and the game is the primary product (rather than the models) then AoS will likely fail. But if AoS doesn't fail then clearly the clearly the game isn't the primary product. "Hope" doesn't come into it other than what 'you' (as in whoever said it) what or would like.

Mateobard
14-07-2015, 23:34
I'm sure a drastic increase in sales of their limited edition product must be right around the corner...

amirite?

RollofTheDice
14-07-2015, 23:38
Their product is the game. All their competitors realize this and that is why GW is going through something called, "The Rise of the Rest". It's something we here in America are suffering from with our economy. Only reason we are still number 1 in anything is because we are the most stable base to work off of. GW has the most stable fan base because it is the largest. That's what's holding them up. But the more and more people look for more bang for their buck, GW will suffer because that player base will shrink.

Heard that argument for over a decade :rolleyes:
It's just not reality, too many new kids picking up GW, too many fans sticking with it and forking out cash despite reasons X and Y. Not to mention the amount of people drawn back to GW despite switching to different games and systems.

Mawduce
14-07-2015, 23:44
Right, so if you're right and the game is the primary product (rather than the models) then AoS will likely fail. But if AoS doesn't fail then clearly the clearly the game isn't the primary product. "Hope" doesn't come into it other than what 'you' (as in whoever said it) what or would like.

But if we take it to a collector of models perspective, who is going to go beyond a limited purchase. Those types will buy a limited number of models from a limited number of ranges. Paint, setup the diorama and move on to something else.

HammerofThunor
14-07-2015, 23:58
I buy primarily to collect, model and paint. I play a handful of games a year but I collect armies. I collect units I like and add to make something I see as an army. Then I'll use this is the odd game. If the models are good and themes decent AoS is perfect for me. I don't think I'm unusal but I have no idea how common I am. We'll find out, which is a good thing.

on the limited edition thing, I don't doubt there will be some who will buy it but usually you need a tie to the product, which there isn't one at the minute so I expect it to be lower. I'm not a big one for limited editions myself, but I did get the Khorne Daemonkin one

Mawduce
15-07-2015, 00:03
Heard that argument for over a decade :rolleyes:
It's just not reality, too many new kids picking up GW, too many fans sticking with it and forking out cash despite reasons X and Y. Not to mention the amount of people drawn back to GW despite switching to different games and systems.

And you've been hearing about it for years because these things take time. If it's not reality then explain their sales numbers. And before you go into restructuring the product, understand that will effect profit margins, not sales numbers.

RollofTheDice
15-07-2015, 01:25
And you've been hearing about it for years because these things take time. If it's not reality then explain their sales numbers. And before you go into restructuring the product, understand that will effect profit margins, not sales numbers.

Do you understand how much profit the company makes and how much of a loss it can sustain?
When you take that in to account, what you speak about doesn't really mean anything. How many times has the Company lost profits, blown money on BS, scrapped games, etc. :p

M'ichal
15-07-2015, 18:35
I buy primarily to collect, model and paint. I play a handful of games a year but I collect armies. I collect units I like and add to make something I see as an army. Then I'll use this is the odd game. If the models are good and themes decent AoS is perfect for me. I don't think I'm unusal but I have no idea how common I am. We'll find out, which is a good thing.


yeah, I am almost exactly like you but I play the game(s) even less and had almost no interest in the old Fantasy. I would probably get into the new stuff if I did not have so much unpainted stuff already ;)

Reinholt
15-07-2015, 18:49
Do you understand how much profit the company makes and how much of a loss it can sustain?
When you take that in to account, what you speak about doesn't really mean anything. How many times has the Company lost profits, blown money on BS, scrapped games, etc. :p

Yes. I do understand these things.


Heard that argument for over a decade :rolleyes:
It's just not reality, too many new kids picking up GW, too many fans sticking with it and forking out cash despite reasons X and Y. Not to mention the amount of people drawn back to GW despite switching to different games and systems.

What is your explanation for their downward sales volume trend over the past 5 years sustained, then? Underpants gnomes stealing product from the warehouse at night?

If net customer inflow is up/stable, why are sales volumes falling?

Scribe of Khorne
15-07-2015, 18:53
You guys that identify as collectors, are you in the UK/Euro? I dont know a single person in my area that collects rather than games (west coast canada)

HammerofThunor
15-07-2015, 19:59
UK for me. Edit: for expansion, I started WFB back in the early nighties and slowed down around 1998 and stopped completely in about 2001. Although I got models for High Elves and Goblins (very early on, metal dragon on all fours), chaos, Lizardmen, we actually started playing with bits of paper rather than models. Since I've come back (around 2008 I think, the year before 8th), it's mostly been about painting and modelling.

Haravikk
15-07-2015, 22:14
Their product is the game.
I couldn't disagree more; the reason I stick with GW is because I enjoy the setting (mostly on the 40k side, while I liked Fantasy I wasn't as attached to the world, more the character of the races), but also mainly because of the quality of the models. Sure there are other sci-fi war-games out there with super-soldiers, but nothing that matches (IMO) the presence and instant cool-factor of Space Marines, or the various xenos races.

As another example, there are tons of companies doing Dwarf models, but none of them had the same sense of style and character that made me collect Warhammer Dwarfs; while Mantic Dwarfs aren't terrible, they just don't have the same kind of ingrained look of stubbornness about them. Avatars of War made Slayer rip-offs, but they don't have the same crazed, despairing look that GW's old metal slayer models have. There are plenty of GW character models that, despite lacking height from a base, are simply more imposing than anything else I've seen. In fact, there are very few Dwarf character models that I don't love; take the Battle Standard Bearer, pretty much any thane or lord on foot, King Alrik Ranulfson, Thorgrim Grudgebearer, or the bar-fight Josef Bugman model.

Besides; GW's rules and army books have always been riddled with issues from mistakes to wild flaws in internal and external balance. If your goal is to play balanced games then Warhammer and 40k have never been the best option; there were always simpler, more elegant, and more effective rulesets out there. AoS has certainly leap-frogged many of these systems in simplicity, but with a focus on fun and narrative rather than balance. The only issue now is whether anyone can afford to actually make the most of it if GW is going to try to make us cough up £45 for a handful of scenarios every few months, because that's the part that's going to fall flat right out of the gate.

GW should be focusing on selling us models and unique campaigns; basic scenarios and setting building should come from free articles or much cheaper books, e.g- separate background and scenario/rules books. If they gave us practical size, £10-15 soft back scenario/campaign books with minimal background then they'd sell easily, to all players. They can then sell more expensive background books in hardback that represent fixed points in the timeline (so wouldn't go out of date), release limited edition omnibuses of these every so often and they might be collectible. Rules and scenarios should be affordable, because it's the models that GW should want people to buy.

scruffyryan
15-07-2015, 22:33
Heard that argument for over a decade :rolleyes:
It's just not reality, too many new kids picking up GW, too many fans sticking with it and forking out cash despite reasons X and Y. Not to mention the amount of people drawn back to GW despite switching to different games and systems.

And these reasons are why their sales continue to drop and market share continues to shrink. cause too many people are sticking with it and they have too any new players and too many people returning to GW.

Galain
16-07-2015, 08:10
And these reasons are why their sales continue to drop and market share continues to shrink. cause too many people are sticking with it and they have too any new players and too many people returning to GW.

It's also why they blew up the Warhammer IP, doncha know. Too many people playing it.

DVeight
16-07-2015, 10:59
Update..... Special edition book not sold out. Curious as to how many have been pre-ordered.

Neckutter
16-07-2015, 11:42
You realise that makes no sense, right? What you mean is "I hope AoS fails as I want GW to focus on the gaming aspect of their products." If they're a games company and don't realise it then there is no need to "hope" for anything.

It makes perfect sense as you said the same thing I said in a different way.

HammerofThunor
16-07-2015, 13:18
Not quite but it doesn't really matter.

HelloKitty
16-07-2015, 13:29
You guys that identify as collectors, are you in the UK/Euro? I dont know a single person in my area that collects rather than games (west coast canada)

Our GW group is roughly 25% collectors. They play once in a while but mainly they collect and paint and are at the GW store every saturday painting and modding new models and holding workshops for it.

M'ichal
16-07-2015, 15:49
You guys that identify as collectors, are you in the UK/Euro? I dont know a single person in my area that collects rather than games (west coast canada)

I am in Ontario.

EagleWarrior
16-07-2015, 15:58
You guys that identify as collectors, are you in the UK/Euro? I dont know a single person in my area that collects rather than games (west coast canada)

I'm in the UK, and would probably call myself more of a collector than a gamer, I spend a lot more time building and painting armies than playing with them. I have some armies that I've never actually fielded on the battlefield, because I moved onto another project before getting round to a game.

Consequently, AoS rules don't bother me too much. However the lame background changes bother me a lot so I'm ignoring everything from the End Times and after and saying the Warhammer Fantasy world kept going.

Galain
16-07-2015, 21:32
I'm in the UK, and would probably call myself more of a collector than a gamer, I spend a lot more time building and painting armies than playing with them. I have some armies that I've never actually fielded on the battlefield, because I moved onto another project before getting round to a game.

Consequently, AoS rules don't bother me too much. However the lame background changes bother me a lot so I'm ignoring everything from the End Times and after and saying the Warhammer Fantasy world kept going.

So what will you do when no more models from that bygone world are available for purchase?

Neckutter
18-07-2015, 03:23
Like most GW fans, he already has several armies, and eBay will always be there

Scribe of Khorne
18-07-2015, 05:00
Our GW group is roughly 25% collectors. They play once in a while but mainly they collect and paint and are at the GW store every saturday painting and modding new models and holding workshops for it.

I'd like to visit this weird Island of yours. Mine is just so completely different its hard for me to relate to your posts sometimes. :p

mdauben
19-07-2015, 00:04
Our GW group is roughly 25% collectors. They play once in a while but mainly they collect and paint and are at the GW store every saturday painting and modding new models and holding workshops for it.
Sounds like my kind if group! I'm in the "more collector than player" camp, too. Not that I don't enjoy an occasional game but I really see them more as an excuse to show off my painted army than to crush my opponent. [emoji1]

From a Galaxy far, far away...

HelloKitty
19-07-2015, 00:32
I'd like to visit this weird Island of yours. Mine is just so completely different its hard for me to relate to your posts sometimes. :p

All of the other five local stores are 95% gamer only. Its only the GW shop that is about 3/4 gamer and 1/4 collector.

Galain
20-07-2015, 20:07
What is your explanation for their downward sales volume trend over the past 5 years sustained, then? Underpants gnomes stealing product from the warehouse at night?

If net customer inflow is up/stable, why are sales volumes falling?

I'd love to hear the answer to this.

Drakkar du Chaos
10-08-2015, 12:16
So... one month and its still there. Only 2000 copies and still there.

The latest limited book ? 1000 copies only.

Thats too bad GW.

HelloKitty
10-08-2015, 13:00
People dont need it the rules are free.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

jullevi
10-08-2015, 13:11
This year I have bought four 130e limited edition Codexes for 40k - a game I haven't played in ten years and likely won't in the near future. I don't hate AoS. I am the kind of collector AoS limited edition is probably aimed at, yet I see little reason to go limited edition.

a) I have no clue what is inside the book. Rulebook is a rulebook and codex is a codex but the whole concept of AoS remains unclear to me. I am looking at contents of the book (http://www.belloflostsouls.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/age_of_sitmar_rulebook_contents.png) and it doesn't help a bit.

b) I have no clue what makes it different from the standard AoS book other than the slipcase. Probably nothing. At least limited edition 40k codexes are prettier than standard books and come with additional gubbinz such as artwork posters, objective card decks and brass tokens.

The Realmgate Wars: Quest for Ghal Maraz limited edition book seems more interesting as an collectors item. It appears to be first (#1) book in some kind of series of overpriced books, the book is more bling than the standard version and I like the idea of scenario cards that are included. However, I don't know how this book interacts with AoS book and if I'm missing anything by starting collecting from book number one, which happens to be the second book?

:confused:

Shandor
10-08-2015, 13:36
People dont need it the rules are free.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Those Special edition books are never needet. They are always optional. No one really needs the Special Edition Lizardman book over the normal Army book. It still was sold out in a week.

HelloKitty
10-08-2015, 14:04
I'm wondering how well the special edition lizardmen book would have sold if the lizardmen rules were all free and you didn't need an army book to begin with?

Special edition books are not needed true - but the rules inside ARE needed.

Kegslayer
10-08-2015, 14:12
While the limited edition isn't moving the normal book was selling very well. In some places sold out so much so that gw had a weeks backlog getting the book out to retailers

Niall78
10-08-2015, 14:17
While the limited edition isn't moving the normal book was selling very well. In some places sold out so much so that gw had a weeks backlog getting the book out to retailers

You've made that claim repeatedly but never put up a link when asked to for further proof.

Spiney Norman
10-08-2015, 15:21
You've made that claim repeatedly but never put up a link when asked to for further proof.

And even if it was true, all it means is that GW completely misjudged the size of the print run (something they managed to do spectacularly with the first three End times books). For what it's worth, the AoS book is in many ways a very similar product to the ET books, similar price point, similar format, theoretically a similar market (well ok, hopefully a wider market), they're both the same mash up of rules, fluff and scenarios pushed out as a game expansion.

And the first three ET books (regular versions) were gone within 20-60 mins of preorders going live. Now ok the print runs for AoS might be larger than the ET books (though I would wager not that much larger), but it's pretty clear to me that wfb not selling was mostly due to stagnation of the game, not because points values were fundamentally evil, it's just that GW went putting out what people wanted to buy.

Kingrick
10-08-2015, 16:34
You've made that claim repeatedly but never put up a link when asked to for further proof.

maybe he is like Jay from the Inbetweeners! (if you don't know inbetweeners it is a British Comedy)

ihavetoomuchminis
10-08-2015, 16:55
If you dont have anything to further support AoS, just make it up. Maybe this way more people will join the bandwagon.

Sothron
10-08-2015, 16:56
Kinda hilarious that every other limited edition for a game was gone quickly but AoS still lingers. SBD indeed.

Whirlwind
10-08-2015, 17:03
While the limited edition isn't moving the normal book was selling very well. In some places sold out so much so that gw had a weeks backlog getting the book out to retailers

Both Dark Sphere and Element Games from my browsing never had this issue which are both highly rated web/shop retailers, so it would be interesting to hear where this has occurred?

Niall78
10-08-2015, 17:04
maybe he is like Jay from the Inbetweeners! (if you don't know inbetweeners it is a British Comedy)

Every community has a "Jay". A man where I lived claimed to have fallen out of Concorde and into the swimming pool of the QE2.

Without links to back up such statements they are worthless and if everyone played that game the forum itself would be worthless. To counter the unsubstantiated claims of great sales leading to rulebook shortages I could just post back the unsubstantiated claim that I saw GW staff burning hundreds of unsold AoS limited edition books on waste ground in Nottingham. Very soon the discussion devolves to childish nonsense.

Niall78
10-08-2015, 17:06
Both Dark Sphere and Element Games from my browsing never had this issue which are both highly rated web/shop retailers, so it would be interesting to hear where this has occurred?

He should post the links to back up the claim. If it's true it's big news. Surprised it hasn't surfaced in the 'rummer and news' section yet on this site.

Holier Than Thou
10-08-2015, 17:10
Every community has a "Jay". A man where I lived claimed to have fallen out of Concorde and into the swimming pool of the QE2.

Without links to back up such statements they are worthless and if everyone played that game the forum itself would be worthless. To counter the unsubstantiated claims of great sales leading to rulebook shortages I could just post back the unsubstantiated claim that I saw GW staff burning hundreds of unsold AoS limited edition books on waste ground in Nottingham. Very soon the discussion devolves to childish nonsense.

Ooh, ooh, ooh, where can I get one of these Limited Edition Piles of Sigmar-ash?

Konovalev
10-08-2015, 17:20
If you dont have anything to further support AoS, just make it up. Maybe this way more people will join the bandwagon.

It works for the other bandwagon so why not eh?

HelloKitty
10-08-2015, 17:29
It works for the other bandwagon so why not eh?

Precisely this.

Kegslayer
10-08-2015, 17:42
Hadn't realised I had been asked for proof. Not psychic. So get off your high horse just cos you don't like AoS.



As for proof well I cant link phone calls. Due to the delay though I happily received a gift voucher and the guy with grief hound for nothing.



Whine away about AoS. Whine away about how its "failing" in your opinion of course lol ;)

Oh and don't know who jay is as I have never seen inbetweeners

ewar
10-08-2015, 18:22
People dont need it the rules are free.

No one has ever needed a special edition of anything - especially when you consider how truly crap some of the special editions are (a friend has lent me his Tyranid codex special edition and it is painfully rubbish for what he paid.


I'm wondering how well the special edition lizardmen book would have sold if the lizardmen rules were all free and you didn't need an army book to begin with?

Special edition books are not needed true - but the rules inside ARE needed.

The rules have always been available for free on the internet - seriously, it doesn't take a membership of Anonymous to find pdfs of any GW rule book you could ever want. People have always bought the books because they're nice to have and convenient.

It seems people just don't really want these particular books. For the life of me, I can't think why :angel:

ihavetoomuchminis
10-08-2015, 18:24
It works for the other bandwagon so why not eh?

Absolutely. The same way i dont believe such statements, i dont believe those who say it is a disaster in their area. I guess the truth relies somewhere in a grey between absolute black and glowing white.

MagicAngle
10-08-2015, 18:38
I don't think that the associated rules were the reason for the ET books selling out. IHMO The rules were patchy at best and, besides, the new minis all had the rules in the box.

The ET books sold out because (personal opinion alert) the story felt epic and unmissable. I had to know about what was going to happen to my favorite characters and nations, even if I fundamentally hated what they were doing to the world. On the other hand I think there is a complete lack of buy-in from the gaming community into the brave new Sigmar world. Frankly, I couldn't care less about where Sigmar lost his hammer, because I have no stake in the new universe.

I'm pretty certain I'm not alone in this. Hence the books aren't selling. Well, unless you believe the one guy...

HelloKitty
10-08-2015, 18:50
No one has ever needed a special edition of anything - especially when you consider how truly crap some of the special editions are (a friend has lent me his Tyranid codex special edition and it is painfully rubbish for what he paid.



The rules have always been available for free on the internet - seriously, it doesn't take a membership of Anonymous to find pdfs of any GW rule book you could ever want. People have always bought the books because they're nice to have and convenient.

It seems people just don't really want these particular books. For the life of me, I can't think why :angel:

I see. Seems like we are splitting hairs at this point over what is *needed*.

An army book released during a time when the army book was needed to play.

A narrative/fluff book with a couple of scenarios that is not required to play.

The army book limited edition is not needed because one could just pirate it anyway but people wanted it so bought it vs the book that is not needed to play the game at all but its not being bought because... I'm still sticking with its because its not needed to play the game and $150 for a book that is not needed to play the game is a lot of money to spend that could be better spent elsewhere. I know that here where I am that is pretty much 100% the reason why no one is buying that book from among the people playing AoS. Because its not needed.

vs i don't need to spend $150 on that book but i'm going to have to buy a version of the book anyway because its needed to play (piracy and scruples not withstanding, most people I know that are pirates don't buy anything if they don't have to period)

Niall78
10-08-2015, 18:55
I don't think that the associated rules were the reason for the ET books selling out. IHMO The rules were patchy at best and, besides, the new minis all had the rules in the box.

The ET books sold out because (personal opinion alert) the story felt epic and unmissable. I had to know about what was going to happen to my favorite characters and nations, even if I fundamentally hated what they were doing to the world. On the other hand I think there is a complete lack of buy-in from the gaming community into the brave new Sigmar world. Frankly, I couldn't care less about where Sigmar lost his hammer, because I have no stake in the new universe.

I'm pretty certain I'm not alone in this. Hence the books aren't selling. Well, unless you believe the one guy...

It actually stinks of hubris for a company to release a new game, with new rules, based on a new setting and launch a limited or special edition of this new product before the game has proven popular and that it has staying power.

Sothron
10-08-2015, 20:28
I don't think that the associated rules were the reason for the ET books selling out. IHMO The rules were patchy at best and, besides, the new minis all had the rules in the box.

The ET books sold out because (personal opinion alert) the story felt epic and unmissable. I had to know about what was going to happen to my favorite characters and nations, even if I fundamentally hated what they were doing to the world. On the other hand I think there is a complete lack of buy-in from the gaming community into the brave new Sigmar world. Frankly, I couldn't care less about where Sigmar lost his hammer, because I have no stake in the new universe.

I'm pretty certain I'm not alone in this. Hence the books aren't selling. Well, unless you believe the one guy...

You are most certainly not alone. My local LGS owner is in a listing with hundreds of local gaming stores in the USA and from what he has said the vast majority of them are not selling or barely selling AoS product. The only orders are from people trying to get 8th edition models before they are gone.

GW flat out backstabbed the veteran gamers and the sales are reflective of it. I personally have played Warhammer since the mid to late 1980's. Do you think I could possibly care about their IP lawyer suggested Sig this and Sig that crap for a setting now? Not even the real names for the races? I definitely am not alone in that feeling. I'm just hoping I can bring my local gaming community that has completely given up on any fantasy gaming to try KoW with me and my wife.

ewar
10-08-2015, 21:31
I see. Seems like we are splitting hairs at this point over what is *needed*.

An army book released during a time when the army book was needed to play.

A narrative/fluff book with a couple of scenarios that is not required to play.

The army book limited edition is not needed because one could just pirate it anyway but people wanted it so bought it vs the book that is not needed to play the game at all but its not being bought because... I'm still sticking with its because its not needed to play the game and $150 for a book that is not needed to play the game is a lot of money to spend that could be better spent elsewhere. I know that here where I am that is pretty much 100% the reason why no one is buying that book from among the people playing AoS. Because its not needed.

vs i don't need to spend $150 on that book but i'm going to have to buy a version of the book anyway because its needed to play (piracy and scruples not withstanding, most people I know that are pirates don't buy anything if they don't have to period)

We're not splitting hairs at all - the point which is relevant is that you have two systems: WFB and AOS. Both have had books released with frankly eye watering cost, covering the same type of content (fluff, scenarios, non-core rules) and for one system they sold out worldwide in moments, whereas for the other they languish on the shelf.

Saying this is because the core rules are available for free is misleading - no one was buying the End Times books thinking it had all the rules needed to play 8th edition.

HelloKitty
11-08-2015, 00:55
Except the end times books had the end times rules, army changes, new magic rules you needed to play end times rules.


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ewar
11-08-2015, 01:04
Except the end times books had the end times rules, army changes, new magic rules you needed to play end times rules.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Which is exactly the same as the new AOS books... that's kind of my point. The blurb from the recent Warhammer: Age of Sigmar : The Realmgate Wars : Quest for Ghal Maraz (and I seriously didn't make that title up, which is just hilarious!)

Within its pages you’ll details of the thrilling narrative as the Stormcast Eternals press on in their quest to recover Sigmar’s sacred hammer, with in-depth descriptions and backgrounds of all the factions involved. Detailed stage-by-stage painting guides are included, with beautiful, evocative photography and artwork.

As well as all this, you’ll find a wealth of battleplans, warscrolls and Time Of War rules, as well as all the rules required to play exciting games of Warhammer Age of Sigmar.

The difference is...?

HelloKitty
11-08-2015, 01:06
As i own all of the end times books and the age of sigmar book i can tell you its totally not the same.

I dont need the age of sigmar book to play age of sigmar. All of the units i can get free as i can the rules and basic scenarios.

I cant play end times without the end times rules, which i cant download for free. I need the books.

While similar its not exactly the same.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

ewar
11-08-2015, 01:13
It sounds pretty damned similar to me. I can't seem to find the Time of War rules online for free or the 'wealth of battleplans'. Either way, in my experience people bought End Times mostly for the fluff (it was so nice to get advancement in the plot... at least, it was at the time).

Which brings us full circle - people just don't want limited edition books of the new stuff or they'd be flying off the shelves. We're all a bunch of massive nerds - it is seriously not difficult to part us from our cash with limited editions of basically anything!

Konovalev
11-08-2015, 03:05
The rules have always been available for free on the internet - seriously, it doesn't take a membership of Anonymous to find pdfs of any GW rule book you could ever want. People have always bought the books because they're nice to have and convenient.

It seems people just don't really want these particular books. For the life of me, I can't think why :angel:

This is easily the single most idiotic thing I've read on this forum. And that's after hearing a particular conspiracy theorist maintain that GW intentionally shorts their own store's because not being able to sell product somehow makes them money, that's how idiotic this is. Are you really so desperate to hate on this that's you're scraping the literal bottom of the mental barrel?

People don't steal the books because they are not thieves. I didn't abstain from stealing my car because it looks nice, I paid for it because I'm not scum. It says a lot about you that you would even suggest this.

Kisanis
11-08-2015, 03:11
It actually stinks of hubris for a company to release a new game, with new rules, based on a new setting and launch a limited or special edition of this new product before the game has proven popular and that it has staying power.
Kinda like the hubris of making a giant gold statue...

Sent from my Z30 using Tapatalk

Kisanis
11-08-2015, 03:17
This is easily the single most idiotic thing I've read on this forum. And that's after hearing a particular conspiracy theorist maintain that GW intentionally shorts their own store's because not being able to sell product somehow makes them money, that's how idiotic this is. Are you really so desperate to hate on this that's you're scraping the literal bottom of the mental barrel?

People don't steal the books because they are not thieves. I didn't abstain from stealing my car because it looks nice, I paid for it because I'm not scum. It says a lot about you that you would even suggest this.
I've downloaded and pdf'd many books.
Mostly because I got sick of buying books that only last 2 years (6th edition 40k, im looking at you).

Mostly because I really dont care about 100 pages of the same badly written fluff rehashed every edition.

My favourite codexes were 5th edition fantasy army books, and the 5th edition 40k ones.

I dont need giant fancy embossed hardcover books for wargaming. I want clear well layed out rules. If they were still 30$ per softcover book, I would probably own 2-6 of the current books. I currently own 1, and picked up the dark vengence pocket book for 10$ secondhand.

I will pdf these books as well because I can not justify the price for the content. My gaming money will go elsewhere...probably models.

Sent from my Z30 using Tapatalk

MagicAngle
11-08-2015, 04:07
This is easily the single most idiotic thing I've read on this forum. And that's after hearing a particular conspiracy theorist maintain that GW intentionally shorts their own store's because not being able to sell product somehow makes them money, that's how idiotic this is. Are you really so desperate to hate on this that's you're scraping the literal bottom of the mental barrel?

Calm down dear, it's only a commercial (failure).

No but seriously. That isn't a hugely idiotic statement at all. Over half of my group uses pirated content for gaming. If you don't believe that it's rife in the community, then you may need to revisit your assumptions.

Dosiere
11-08-2015, 05:07
I have never played with a pirated rule book or army book and I've never seen anyone use one either. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but damn near every one I see at the club and definitely at tournaments have the books they're using. To suggest that books are "free" because they can be stolen is not the same as a company like GW or Mantic giving free content.

I agree that the price of the army books in particular is way out of control, even the ebook versions are too expensive. For me that means I sadly just buy fewer books these days. I only buy the ones I actually have armies for, where I used to splurge on a few extras.

Spiney Norman
11-08-2015, 09:31
As i own all of the end times books and the age of sigmar book i can tell you its totally not the same.

I dont need the age of sigmar book to play age of sigmar. All of the units i can get free as i can the rules and basic scenarios.

I cant play end times without the end times rules, which i cant download for free. I need the books.

While similar its not exactly the same.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

No but you could still play warhammer without buying the end times books, and the main rule changes that marked a game from the End times campaign were added to the free brb errata (change to Lord/hero percentages, permission for all wizards to use the LoU). You can still play AoS without the ghal maraz book but you won't have the rules/scenarios for playing through the ghal maraz narrative, it really is the same thing, only with far less content than the ET books (iirc wasn't the number of scenarios in nagash somewhere in the 15-20 range, 8 for the two AoS books seems pretty low by comparison).

ewar
11-08-2015, 13:01
This is easily the single most idiotic thing I've read on this forum. And that's after hearing a particular conspiracy theorist maintain that GW intentionally shorts their own store's because not being able to sell product somehow makes them money, that's how idiotic this is. Are you really so desperate to hate on this that's you're scraping the literal bottom of the mental barrel?

People don't steal the books because they are not thieves. I didn't abstain from stealing my car because it looks nice, I paid for it because I'm not scum. It says a lot about you that you would even suggest this.

Touch a nerve there, old chum? :rolleyes:

Just to set you straight on a few things, as you seem to be a little bit behind the conversation, something I guess happens fairly regularly to you.

* the discussion at hand was about people who ONLY want rules. Hello Kitty's view is that the AOS books are not selling because the core rules are given away free and that the primary driver of sales of End Times books was gamers after the new rules. I contend that was not the case and that anyone who ONLY wanted rules had other options of getting those rules than spending £50 on the ET books.

* the inference I am making is that AOS fluff books are not selling because gamers don't seem that interested in the fluff, regardless of what rules are in there. The numbers seem to support this view. Telling me I 'hate' AOS is infantile, I don't think it's possible for anyone to hate a game system. Do I think it's stupid move by GW? absolutely. Does it seem to be a boring dice off game? Yep.

* I wasn't promoting anyone pirating books by the way, but pretending it doesn't happen is naïve in the extreme. Also, it's copyright infringement, which is very different to stealing. The old strawman that you didn't steal your car is a bit 2002 don't you think?

* if that genuinely was the most idiotic post you have ever read, then (a) I want a cookie and (b) I don't think you've spent very long on internet forums.

Cheeslord
11-08-2015, 13:23
* I wasn't promoting anyone pirating books by the way, but pretending it doesn't happen is naïve in the extreme. Also, it's copyright infringement, which is very different to stealing. The old strawman that you didn't steal your car is a bit 2002 don't you think?


You wouldn't shoot a policeman...

... and then steal his helmet...

... and then take a dump in it ...
... and then mail it to his grieving family...
... and then steal it again...

(sorry, couldn't resist...)

Mark.

Niall78
11-08-2015, 13:29
Touch a nerve there, old chum? :rolleyes:

Just to set you straight on a few things, as you seem to be a little bit behind the conversation, something I guess happens fairly regularly to you.

* the discussion at hand was about people who ONLY want rules. Hello Kitty's view is that the AOS books are not selling because the core rules are given away free and that the primary driver of sales of End Times books was gamers after the new rules. I contend that was not the case and that anyone who ONLY wanted rules had other options of getting those rules than spending £50 on the ET books.

* the inference I am making is that AOS fluff books are not selling because gamers don't seem that interested in the fluff, regardless of what rules are in there. The numbers seem to support this view. Telling me I 'hate' AOS is infantile, I don't think it's possible for anyone to hate a game system. Do I think it's stupid move by GW? absolutely. Does it seem to be a boring dice off game? Yep.

* I wasn't promoting anyone pirating books by the way, but pretending it doesn't happen is naïve in the extreme. Also, it's copyright infringement, which is very different to stealing. The old strawman that you didn't steal your car is a bit 2002 don't you think?

* if that genuinely was the most idiotic post you have ever read, then (a) I want a cookie and (b) I don't think you've spent very long on internet forums.

There's always a risk of pirating where the price of a product outstrips its perceived value to customers. GW went past this time low ago with their very high prices, constant changes requiring more buy-in and badly out of date products such as codex's and army books.

ewar
11-08-2015, 13:30
You wouldn't shoot a policeman...

... and then steal his helmet...

... and then take a dump in it ...
... and then mail it to his grieving family...
... and then steal it again...

(sorry, couldn't resist...)

Mark.

Haha, took me a moment to place that, but it's that video from Alan Partridge right!?

Holier Than Thou
11-08-2015, 13:41
Haha, took me a moment to place that, but it's that video from Alan Partridge right!?

IT Crowd. Brilliant.

ewar
11-08-2015, 13:44
IT Crowd. Brilliant.

Ah very true, not sure where I got partridge from!

HelloKitty
11-08-2015, 13:47
I guess without a scientific poll there is no way to get at why people bought ET books then, though we can speculate round and round - without any actual data it would just be a circular discussion. I know here the people that bought them bought them for the rules and really after the second book came out, sales dropped by quite a bit. The Nagash book sold out quickly but I recall a lot of ebay scalpers buying as many copies as they could to sell on ebay for 3x the cost, and I remember that happening with the Glottkin book as well.

It seemed that by the time the Khaine book came out that sales had dropped off quite a bit; I do recall people on this forum mocking GW for the rapidly dwindling sales of those books that by the time Archaon hit it seemed few cared much about it.

There are only a few people where I am that bought any of the books (I have the Nagash book and thats it, the guy that runs our leagues and campaigns bought all five books but he is the only one that I know that did that)

Rakariel
11-08-2015, 13:53
It seemed that by the time the Khaine book came out that sales had dropped off quite a bit
Khaine was the one that sold out the fastest (a few minutes). Only after Thanquol came out it took longer to sell but that could have been also because GW probably increased their stock after the big success of the first three books.
I have bought the first AoS book, but it was also the first I wanted to return to the shop after reading it. Lacklustre writing is keeping me from buying another one. I didn`t buy it for the "rules", I wanted to see what they did to the setting.

HelloKitty
11-08-2015, 13:56
I suppose. I wasn't paying attention then, I only recall internet speak. I know that one of our elf players was able to order the book many days after pre order and still get it, which was impossible with Nagash and Glottkin. For whatever thats worth.

HelloKitty
11-08-2015, 13:56
I suppose. I wasn't paying attention then, I only recall internet speak. I know that one of our elf players was able to order the book many days after pre order and still get it, which was impossible with Nagash and Glottkin. For whatever thats worth.

Konovalev
11-08-2015, 13:57
if that genuinely was the most idiotic post you have ever read, then (a) I want a cookie and (b) I don't think you've spent very long on internet forums.

I realize people pirate things, I never implied it doesn't happen. But I guess that's just another symptom of the gimme generation. Whatever would we do without our precious GW books? :rolleyes:

I had thought it a forgone conclusion that when you release paid content, and then some of that paid content for free, that it devalues the paid content. This isn't obvious to you? Why would someone that only wanted the rules buy a book containing them when the scrolls are free? Normal people don't generally consider doing something illegal as an option, regardless of your personal feelings about piracy, so no for most people there was no rules only option prior.

Rakariel
11-08-2015, 13:58
Might be it was longer available in the US, sorry I didn`t clarify I was talking about Europe :).

HelloKitty
11-08-2015, 14:06
That could be, GW may have printed more that time around and they at that time started limited how many you could buy so the scalper situation was not as big a deal as it was before.

thesoundofmusica
11-08-2015, 14:36
I would call myself a proponent of AoS (as well you know) but I havent actually bought a single thing associated with it yet. I just have too many modelling projects on my table at the moment: bretonnians, dwarfs, BFG terrain. I'm very disciplined about finishing my current projects before starting new ones. Will I buy the limited edition? I doubt it, it doesnt add anything of value to me personally.

Spiney Norman
11-08-2015, 19:25
You guys that identify as collectors, are you in the UK/Euro? I dont know a single person in my area that collects rather than games (west coast canada)

UK, and I wouldn't say I was a collector, my primary interest in the hobby is artistic, painting and modelling, although I do play games as well. I guess the reason you're unaware of collectors is probably because it's a non-social hobby unless you play the games.

HelloKitty
11-08-2015, 19:26
Yeah most collectors I know don't touch internet forums because they have minimal interest in the game itself.

Spiney Norman
11-08-2015, 19:47
Khaine was the one that sold out the fastest (a few minutes). Only after Thanquol came out it took longer to sell but that could have been also because GW probably increased their stock after the big success of the first three books.
I have bought the first AoS book, but it was also the first I wanted to return to the shop after reading it. Lacklustre writing is keeping me from buying another one. I didn`t buy it for the "rules", I wanted to see what they did to the setting.

I bought Nagash and enjoyed it (because Nagash), I passed on glottkin due to apathy with the forces involved, I bought khaine and hated it with sufficient passion to turn me off the rest of the series.

Dosiere
11-08-2015, 21:24
For what it's worth not everything in the AoS books are free rules. The battalions and scenarios are not something they are giving away. Im not going to pay 74 bucks for 200 pictures of sigmarines and a few scenarios, even if I was playing with the new miniatures. If they were to release a compendium in the future that was actually full of real gaming content I might go for that.

Malagor
12-08-2015, 02:27
It actually stinks of hubris for a company to release a new game, with new rules, based on a new setting and launch a limited or special edition of this new product before the game has proven popular and that it has staying power.
Well to be fair, they kinda have to.
They need to push this as if it was the greatest thing ever created in order to boosts sales.
Over-priced Limited editions, silly top 10s, a gold statue in front of HQ, all to show their confidence in the product
If they treated it like say the hobbit game, then the sales would be well even worse then the hobbit.
So hubris or no, they have to do it in order to get the game off it's feet.

MagicAngle
12-08-2015, 03:17
in order to get the game off it's feet.

I'd image they'd rather get the game onto it's feet. But I think your statement is closer to reflecting reality. ;)

The risk of this approach, of course, is that the failure of the limited ed book(s) starts to give the whole release the whiff of failure. At that point the hubris starts to be counter productive.

Spiney Norman
12-08-2015, 07:35
Well to be fair, they kinda have to.
They need to push this as if it was the greatest thing ever created in order to boosts sales.
Over-priced Limited editions, silly top 10s, a gold statue in front of HQ, all to show their confidence in the product
If they treated it like say the hobbit game, then the sales would be well even worse then the hobbit.
So hubris or no, they have to do it in order to get the game off it's feet.

I think the point is folks were happy to pay extra for the wfb limited editions because they loved the game and had a massive emotional investment in it, AoS has none of that, in fact the very people who used to fork out for the Ltd ed wfb books are precisely the kind of people who will have been most offended by the cancellation of wfb and its subsequent replacement by AoS.

AoS is still very much in the 'trying to prove itself' phase and having unsold ltd ed books hanging around is going to draw inevitable comparisons to the Hobbit and the ltd edition starter set that never sold out.

Vos
12-08-2015, 07:51
Well I haven't bought the AoS books (any of them) because the rules are free and I'm not yet sufficiently interested in the AoS 'fluff' to want to spend £45+ on related books.
I have however spent around £300 on buying new Wood Elf/Syvanethi models because I (and my group) likes the new game.

I bought all the end times books for the fluff so we can play massive "historical" battles using our Warmaster collections.

Go figure.

Vos

Geep
12-08-2015, 10:54
A bit off topic, but since people are talking about what they have/haven't bought: Has anyone bought any of the Sigmarines, apart from those in the starter set? How about the new Marauders?
They must be assuming a very wealthy player base to afford these limited edition things, on top of their new model prices, and even though I know some wealthy gamers none of them are going near this stuff.

Tokamak
12-08-2015, 11:15
If you're going to alienate veterans and committed fans by destroying the game and making it for kids while at the same time premium-pricing the models then all that's left for AoS is a few very rich kids.

75hastings69
12-08-2015, 11:19
Wow, I can't (well actually I can) believe that the Age of Sigmar Sigmarimited Edition of the book STILL hasn't sigmarsold out!! That's 2 months almost!

Spiney Norman
12-08-2015, 11:41
Wow, I can't (well actually I can) believe that the Age of Sigmar Sigmarimited Edition of the book STILL hasn't sigmarsold out!! That's 2 months almost!

My sigmarfaith in the sigmarhammer-buying sigmarpublic continues to rise ;)

75hastings69
12-08-2015, 11:43
I Sigmagree :D :D :D

Leogun_91
12-08-2015, 11:45
It doesn't neccesarily mean that AoS is a failure (I believe it will be but this in itself does not prove that and can at best be pointed to as a small sign that it may be the case). What it does show without doubt is however that the Limited edition box release of AoS is a failure. That many players feel that the limited edition box adds very little for the price increase is an important factor too.

Holier Than Thou
12-08-2015, 12:09
My sigmarfaith in the sigmarhammer-buying sigmarpublic continues to rise ;)


I Sigmagree :D :D :D

Sigmarseconded.

Tokamak
12-08-2015, 12:20
The limited edition of 8th sold out in a heartbeat.

Niall78
12-08-2015, 12:29
The limited edition of 8th sold out in a heartbeat.

8th had a thirty year history to back it up. AoS has nothing. GW may forget about high priced limited editions for the next five or six years while they attempt to build a player base for their new IP. It's one of the reasons why killing such a valuable and well known IP was the height of stupidity.

Shandor
12-08-2015, 12:53
I realize people pirate things, I never implied it doesn't happen. But I guess that's just another symptom of the gimme generation. Whatever would we do without our precious GW books? :rolleyes:

I had thought it a forgone conclusion that when you release paid content, and then some of that paid content for free, that it devalues the paid content. This isn't obvious to you? Why would someone that only wanted the rules buy a book containing them when the scrolls are free? Normal people don't generally consider doing something illegal as an option, regardless of your personal feelings about piracy, so no for most people there was no rules only option prior.

I would never: Lend me a book from a Friend and copy some Pages out of it as "stealing" I did this a 100 Times for Vampire Charakter Sheets, Manuals for Games or Elektronic, Forgotten Realms Books, The Book of Nod. (after i lost mine 3 times and it was to expensive to buy it another time.) Or School book stuff i didnt have.
Is there really a law against Copy stuff out of a book?

I am a criminal for 30 years now? :(

75hastings69
12-08-2015, 13:07
8th had a thirty year history to back it up. AoS has nothing. GW maybe forget about high priced limited editions for the next five or six years while they attempt to build a player base for their new IP. It's one of the reasons why killing such a valuable and well known IP was the height of stupidity.

I think you make a good and valid point.

For a lot of people until the fluff actually contains anything more than poorly written infant school type stories I don't think they have anything to back up the sales of the books anyway, let alone overpriced limited editions of them.

Tokamak
12-08-2015, 13:15
It's also a lot of memories tied to the original story. Quite a few twenty-somethings even took part in the lore through the Storm of Chaos.

It's even more grating to see Blizzard venerating their old Warcraft lore even more with their new Legion expansion. They go back to the Reign of Chaos storyline and start fleshing it out even further.

thesoundofmusica
12-08-2015, 13:42
It's also a lot of memories tied to the original story. Quite a few twenty-somethings even took part in the lore through the Storm of Chaos.

It's even more grating to see Blizzard venerating their old Warcraft lore even more with their new Legion expansion. They go back to the Reign of Chaos storyline and start fleshing it out even further.

The masters of retcon? Yeah I see how that's something to strive for.

Theocracity
12-08-2015, 14:18
The masters of retcon? Yeah I see how that's something to strive for.

Yeah - their entire story department seems to be operating on the basis of "let's see how many times we can retell the same stories we told you in the 90s," using retcons to get there and ending any given dramatic arc with raid boss mechanics :p.

Konovalev
12-08-2015, 14:44
I am a criminal for 30 years now? :(

I know you're being snide but I'll give you a real answer: It depends. Piracy/infringement can be a civil offense, or a criminal offense depending on the circumstances surrounding it. Circumstances which may be different in America compared to whatever country you're in.

Tokamak
12-08-2015, 14:48
I haven't seen any jarring retcon. Besides, most examples are usually flawed recalling by the characters. Like Arthas saying Muradin was dead while the campaign completely left that part open.

The_Real_Chris
12-08-2015, 14:50
Here is some UK legalise from a Uni website.


The concept of 'fair dealing' is not defined. However, it is widely accepted that it is fair to copy for the above purposes the following:

Books - one chapter or 5 per cent of a book, whichever is greater
Journals - an article or 5% from a single issue of a journal, whichever is greater
Conference proceedings - a paper or 5% from one set of conference proceedings, whichever is greater
Short stories or poems in an anthology - one short story or one poem of not more than 10 pages or 5% from an anthology of short stories or poems, whichever is the greater
Copying for commercial research, or for private study which is directly or indirectly commercial, is not permitted by this exception. Copying for commercial purposes is only allowed if the copyright owner's consent is obtained, or a copyright fee is paid, or it is made under licence.

Theocracity
12-08-2015, 14:54
I haven't seen any jarring retcon. Besides, most examples are usually flawed recalling by the characters. Like Arthas saying Muradin was dead while the campaign completely left that part open.

If the entire last expansion doesn't count as a retcon, I'm not sure what would :p.

Niall78
12-08-2015, 15:35
If the entire last expansion doesn't count as a retcon, I'm not sure what would :p.

Many universe's have no overriding truth. The universe is seen through the eyes of different characters, kingdoms, organisations, etc. So the same events can have a radically different spin put on them depending on who is narrating those events to the reader. The water becomes even more muddied in settings with no good or bad factions. The setting becomes like our own history - many shades of grey with no overriding historical narrative that everyone buys into as the real truth.

Cheeslord
12-08-2015, 15:38
I am a criminal for 30 years now? :(

I think anyone who recorded a video from the television and didn't erase if after a couple of weeks is committing a crime (that includes me, my family and most people I know who own or have owned any kind of video recording system). Although the good news is I don't think you are technically a criminal until you have been convicted by a court of law.

Mark.

Wintermute
12-08-2015, 17:36
I think anyone who recorded a video from the television and didn't erase if after a couple of weeks is committing a crime (that includes me, my family and most people I know who own or have owned any kind of video recording system). Although the good news is I don't think you are technically a criminal until you have been convicted by a court of law.

Mark.

Can we stay on topic please? In other words take discussion of copyright law to Random Musings.

Wintermute

Tokamak
12-08-2015, 18:17
If the entire last expansion doesn't count as a retcon, I'm not sure what would :p.

Actually check this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BmTMU8HAaI8

It's not entirely elegant but it solves the historic lore while still allowing to continue new stuff. The point is mostly to involve players in the history with a bit of hand waving for the weird logic.

All the other retcon is listed here:
http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Retcon_speculation

The point is, the story starting from WCIII is pretty consistent up to now. Consistent enough for Blizzard to let players revisit old parts of it but now in more detail.

Theocracity
12-08-2015, 18:50
Actually check this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BmTMU8HAaI8

It's not entirely elegant but it solves the historic lore while still allowing to continue new stuff. The point is mostly to involve players in the history with a bit of hand waving for the weird logic.

All the other retcon is listed here:
http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Retcon_speculation

The point is, the story starting from WCIII is pretty consistent up to now. Consistent enough for Blizzard to let players revisit old parts of it but now in more detail.

And continually rehash the same plot points and characters, which I think is their bigger sin.

Muradin's dead? No, he didn't actually die (despite how this weakens a key dramatic event in Arthas's story).

Grom Hellscream is dead? Let's redo WC3's 'headstrong hero becomes chaotic dumb villain' story via his son, Garrosh!

Liked Warcraft 2? Let's redo the Orc story via one expansion by combining it with Burning Crusade, and the Sargeras tomb story by combining it with a rehash of Illidan's story (who's miracurously not dead now). It may not be strictly considered a retcon, but it has a serious case of déjà vu.

It's all lovely nostalgia, but very little of it is actually new or interesting. The arrakoa zone in the recent xpac was one of the few times I've played that game where I felt they were doing something actually new and interesting (or, if not new, at least previously underdeveloped) - and once you complete that zone the story dead ends.

Tokamak
12-08-2015, 18:55
Muradin's death is a great example of a flawed source of information. You didn't see him die, you saw Arthas coming out of a cave proclaiming him dead. Arthas actually for-shadows his return when he meets Muradin's crew once more in TFT he says "Doesn't anyone stay death any more?".

Going over a story and either staying the course (caverns of time) or giving an alternative version of it, is what Blizzard is good at. It certainly beats all the endless dragon stories they keep jamming into everything.

And forget plot for a second, it's the lore that keeps growing every time they do this. Their RTS hastily mentions huge swathes of lore in a few cut-scenes. An MMO allows them to let a player soak into lavish detail.

That's the lesson I wish GW took from this. End Times is brilliant as it simply climaxed a lot of arcs that were always held back due to keeping an eternal conflict going. If they wanted more story they could just go through an alternate campaign and give new outcomes. End Times proved that GW had tons of cool ideas with their lore. It's certainly way better than sterilising their universe.

Rakariel
12-08-2015, 20:24
And continually rehash the same plot points and characters, which I think is their bigger sin.

Muradin's dead? No, he didn't actually die (despite how this weakens a key dramatic event in Arthas's story).

Grom Hellscream is dead? Let's redo WC3's 'headstrong hero becomes chaotic dumb villain' story via his son, Garrosh!

Liked Warcraft 2? Let's redo the Orc story via one expansion by combining it with Burning Crusade, and the Sargeras tomb story by combining it with a rehash of Illidan's story (who's miracurously not dead now). It may not be strictly considered a retcon, but it has a serious case of déjà vu.

It's all lovely nostalgia, but very little of it is actually new or interesting. The arrakoa zone in the recent xpac was one of the few times I've played that game where I felt they were doing something actually new and interesting (or, if not new, at least previously underdeveloped) - and once you complete that zone the story dead ends.

Still better than completely blowing a 30-year old setting out of the water without any need to. Sorry, I had to say it ;)

AwesomePizza
16-08-2015, 16:17
It's still there. I don't think it's an epic fail though. I mean wasn't the point of Age of Sigmar to push out the old timers with collections?

You know the fans who weren't good enough for GWs bottom line.

vlad78
17-08-2015, 02:24
It's still there. I don't think it's an epic fail though. I mean wasn't the point of Age of Sigmar to push out the old timers with collections?

You know the fans who weren't good enough for GWs bottom line.

Epic fail I don't know, it can't be said until a year or two have passed. But what I can tell you, AOS really gave a boost to KOW and other games around my place. I'm not sure that pushing old timers toward other games is such a bright idea.

Tokamak
17-08-2015, 08:24
Well AoS sure is an epic win if that was the intention.

Sureshot05
17-08-2015, 10:58
Okay, back on topic.


So we are now a month and a bit into the AoS release. The limited edition book has still not sold out. 2000 copies. Lets compare that number with something else on the GW website. The Dark Eldar Limited Edition Codex. That is for one of the less popular armies (still a great army, which i have a few of, but still lower in popularity than most) which sold out in a month. I can't recall if the Wood Elves had a limited edition book, but I think it was a 1000, and again, sold out.

Now AoS is Gw's flagship fantasy system. Its still not sold out its limited edition book. Isn't this the only genuine metric which can be used to gauge the success of AoS? All others unfortunately are antidotal, depending on which local store you consider, but this is on the GW website for the global player base. And its not outselling less popular products in the previous lines. I think we can safely say that AoS is not rising any where near as high as GW wanted and it is not being well received overall.

Spiney Norman
17-08-2015, 11:16
Okay, back on topic.


So we are now a month and a bit into the AoS release. The limited edition book has still not sold out. 2000 copies. Lets compare that number with something else on the GW website. The Dark Eldar Limited Edition Codex. That is for one of the less popular armies (still a great army, which i have a few of, but still lower in popularity than most) which sold out in a month. I can't recall if the Wood Elves had a limited edition book, but I think it was a 1000, and again, sold out.

Now AoS is Gw's flagship fantasy system. Its still not sold out its limited edition book. Isn't this the only genuine metric which can be used to gauge the success of AoS? All others unfortunately are antidotal, depending on which local store you consider, but this is on the GW website for the global player base. And its not outselling less popular products in the previous lines. I think we can safely say that AoS is not rising any where near as high as GW wanted and it is not being well received overall.

Most of the WFB 8th ed ltd ed books sold out by the end of the preorder week, wood elves was no exception, Lizardmen was the same (the only ltd ed book I bought), it was gone by the Thursday before the instore release, and those were both fairly niche armies in a game that was allegedly failing. However it has to be said that the ltd editions were sub-£50 back then because it was back when GW was still testing the water to see what they could get away with, and the early ltd eds were quite a bit more 'special' than the alternative cover art rubbish they are feeding through now.

I think the fact that no-one has any emotional investment in the setting yet is probably the reason why these ltd eds aren't selling, wfb had 30 years of history and nostalgia to draw people to special edition books, AoS has nothing. I'd be more interested to know how the regular edition is selling of I'm honest.

Shifte
17-08-2015, 11:41
http://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Warhammer-Age-of-Sigmar-Book-LTDEd

"Limited to a mere 2000 copies worldwide,"

Mere. ;)

HelloKitty
17-08-2015, 12:03
I still think a lot of why the books arent selling is because they arent needed to play.

Our fantasy scene is not dead but only a couple people are buying the book because $75 is a lot to spend on an art book with narrative with no required rules, let alone $150 for a prettier version.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

EagleWarrior
17-08-2015, 12:16
I still think a lot of why the books arent selling is because they arent needed to play.

Our fantasy scene is not dead but only a couple people are buying the book because $75 is a lot to spend on an art book with narrative with no required rules, let alone $150 for a prettier version.

I think there's a lot of truth to this. Even though the background sections and art add a lot to a rulebook, it starts to look like quite a lot the rules aren't even included. Sadly, I think this may means that GW will see free rules as a failed experiment and not try it again.

Niall78
17-08-2015, 13:17
I think there's a lot of truth to this. Even though the background sections and art add a lot to a rulebook, it starts to look like quite a lot the rules aren't even included. Sadly, I think this may means that GW will see free rules as a failed experiment and not try it again.

Free rules that are good are great value. Free rules that are rubbish not so much.

It's pointless releasing free rules if they are semi-unplayable and need massive player comp to make them playable. It just stinks of - "these are free so why put in any effort" - by GW.

ihavetoomuchminis
17-08-2015, 13:26
Don't the books include scenario and realm rules that can't be acquired for free?

Malagor
17-08-2015, 13:29
I still think a lot of why the books arent selling is because they arent needed to play.

Again, you can say that about any of the limited editions.
You don't need the limited editions and if playing is the main reason why you got the end times or armybook/codex, you can get the normal editions that are considerably cheaper and work just as well and yet the limited edition still sell out within a few days.
It did in fantasy and still do in 40k.
So for your theory to work then it must mean that the normal books aren't selling either(since you have no need for that) which isn't very good either.

HelloKitty
17-08-2015, 13:42
Well my theory is 100% in my area. Most of the people are not buying the book (either edition) because they don't need it to play and have no interest in the narrative to spend $75/$150 on a story book with pictures but no actual rules required to play the game. We have a lot of people that are playing the game overall though. Also - the novels are largely untouched, but that is not new, because very very few people read the novels from classic warhammer as well here. It does not surprise me that the expensive storybooks are not being bought when the cheap paperback novels are also not being bought, because people here don't really care about the narrative as much as the rules, and if the books don't have the rules in them - people here largely don't care about it but continue to play the game.

The insinuation online is that Age of Sigmar is a failure because its limited edition picture book didn't sell out, but where I am sitting thats the farthest thing from the truth. We have a lot of people playing but no one wants an expensive picture/storybook that is not needed to play. They are buying the models and terrain instead.

The normal books aren't selling here either, there are three people that I know of that bought a book. The rest have flatly stated they aren't buying a book they don't need to play the game.

The first two end times books sold a bunch, and a lot of those were to ebay scalpers that were turning around and selling the books for $400 - $500 that very day. After that, the third book was on our shelves for a while and the fourth and fifth didn't move at all (only one person here bought the fourth and fifth end time book). As the ebay scalpers were out in full force on the first two books and books 3 - 5 didn't move so well, that to me makes me wonder how sales really were, and how sales were artificially increased by scalpers hoping to pull a 200-300% profit. Of course, we'll never know that answer but it is truth that the last couple of books especially were available for a long time and they still sit on shelves in places because the interest wasn't there.

Out of a group of over fifty players, four of us bought ANY end times books.


Don't the books include scenario and realm rules that can't be acquired for free?

They do but again they are not needed to play. A lot of people here are content to keep banging away at the default scenario in the four pages of rules.

DarkChaplain
17-08-2015, 15:02
Guess it takes not caring much about the setting, lore and story to enjoy Age of Sigmar for what it is. The more I read of the books, whether they be the main book, Ghal Maraz or the Black Library novellas and short stories, the more bitter I get and the less I trust GW's corporate direction and in-house writers. Rarely have I read such a complete pile of junk and inconsistencies and lore-breaks.

Horace35
17-08-2015, 15:11
I think there's a lot of truth to this. Even though the background sections and art add a lot to a rulebook, it starts to look like quite a lot the rules aren't even included. Sadly, I think this may means that GW will see free rules as a failed experiment and not try it again.

Actually I think free rules will stay because GW no longer wants to participate in creating proper rulesets i.e. ones you could charge for

ooontrprzes
17-08-2015, 15:52
I will utilize free rules for the initial few games, but if I like something I will but harcopies of the rules. Price is not an issue, really either (this year alone I bought almost every specialist games resource to be found, empire in flames, necro omnibus, I even got a copy of mummies tower). I think the lack of sales is indicative of severely reduced enthusiasm (which is no surprise, due to the newness of the system, I suppose, without getting into opinions on the game).

But I guess it might have to be a topic that is broached. I didn't care for it. No particular slander, but not my bag, baby. Definitely not enough to buy rules (as that would display an intent to play frequently). I must say I'm surprised at how slow they're moving, though. There's 300 GW stores worldwide (roughly), without factoring in independant retailers. Limited edition or not, if any SKU fails to move those kind of numbers across that kind of distribution, it's a mathematical failure. And please remember the on-sight ordering computers before I am reminded that it is a "direct only" item. There is no true "direct only" with GW only "unstocked offerings". In fact they encourage you to receive your shipping there on sight. They haven't managed to move more than a couple at any store. That's the math. That's failure. (again, from my understanding of sales, please note I'm not touching the issue of book content with a ten foot pole).

HelloKitty
17-08-2015, 15:56
Can't prove this but I have a feeling that if the new warhammer was the old warhammer only tweaked, but they gave away the rules for free, that core rulebooks wouldn't move very much either.

I know where I am we have had stores put up policies about not bringing in photo copies or pirated pdfs of rulebooks and if they gave the rules away for free, few of the people here would actually buy a rulebook if they didn't have to unless it was really cheap, like $25 or less cheap.

Herzlos
17-08-2015, 16:06
I have the opposite feeling; people still bought the BRB when the mini book was available for less. Ditto for Malifaux and Flames Of War.

People still buy the Infinity hard back when the rules are available for free.

The reason the AoS special edition isn't selling isn't because the core rules are free. It's more likely to be because it's such a diversion from what the LE book buying gamers wanted.

HelloKitty
17-08-2015, 16:14
Must just be my region then. I know of the guys that play infinity only 2-3 have the rulebook because the other guys just downloaded it for free as well. None of the FLGS stores want to carry the rules because they just sit on the shelf with the exception of one store that carries it.

Herzlos
17-08-2015, 16:27
Not everyone will buy the books, but most people gaming outside of their home seem to - it's better to be using the book than a PDF.

But presumably there will be some percentage of gamers will buy the book anyway, and some percentage of them will buy the LE book.
If we assume that ratio is more or less fixed, regardless of the game, then it implies that the number of games is somewhat down.

We're only talking about 1000 LE books here. Across how many stores/gamers?

Of course, we don't know more than that; are there 990 left? 4?

We do know, though, that the LE books seem to be a failure, if they can't shift 1000 in nearly 2 months, when they'd normally sell out of 2000+ copies by launch.

HelloKitty
17-08-2015, 16:36
Considering all the new books are are primarily narrative picture books? I'd say it is a failure yes. I think they are priced way too high for what they are and the fact that they are having a hard time moving those shows that few want to spend that much money on a narrative fluff book.

EagleWarrior
17-08-2015, 16:45
I think limited edition may be particularly suffering for AoS. The sort of people who usually buy limited edition things are dedicated fans who have a lot of stake in the franchise, which is true for film merchandise, music merchandise etc, not just wargaming. The problem for AoS is that even if it will generate such a fan base, it hasn't done yet because it simply hasn't had time to. Making limited edition stuff for a new and untested franchise is always likely to be a dodgy prospect even if it was good.

SuperHappyTime
17-08-2015, 16:47
Considering all the new books are are primarily narrative picture books? I'd say it is a failure yes. I think they are priced way too high for what they are and the fact that they are having a hard time moving those shows that few want to spend that much money on a narrative fluff book.

Which is funny when you contrast them against the End Times books. I think Glottkin sold out in a week and Khaine in a few minutes?

ETA: I agree fully with this. The community is not onboard with AoS like they were with WFB.

I think limited edition may be particularly suffering for AoS. The sort of people who usually buy limited edition things are dedicated fans who have a lot of stake in the franchise, which is true for film merchandise, music merchandise etc, not just wargaming. The problem for AoS is that even if it will generate such a fan base, it hasn't done yet because it simply hasn't had time to. Making limited edition stuff for a new and untested franchise is always likely to be a dodgy prospect even if it was good.

HammerofThunor
17-08-2015, 17:01
Limited editions cost significantly more and the added value is purely based on emotional attachment. Of course, there isn't the emotional attachment to AoS, it is a new construction. I don't understand why anyone would buy them at all, other than obsessive collectors. But I have bought the ebook version of the others. There is only one limited edition I've gotten from GW and that is because there is only one that I felt any emotional investment it.

There is no comparison with WFB because they didn't release expensive limited editions when it first came out...did they?

If this still happens in 5 years (if it's still going on) then they have a serious problem.

EDIT: Just read what EagleWarrior said. Ninja'd

Vladyhell
17-08-2015, 17:12
Who's to say the non-limited books aren't selling tho? I pre-ordered the non-limited ones and there were plenty guys in the shop getting their copy when I picked mine up.

Losing Command
17-08-2015, 17:24
But the limited edition books not selling because no one is invested in AoS yet raises the question why GW made the books in the first place. Did they not consider this likely to happen ?

AngryAngel
17-08-2015, 17:50
Well my theory is 100% in my area. Most of the people are not buying the book (either edition) because they don't need it to play and have no interest in the narrative to spend $75/$150 on a story book with pictures but no actual rules required to play the game. We have a lot of people that are playing the game overall though. Also - the novels are largely untouched, but that is not new, because very very few people read the novels from classic warhammer as well here. It does not surprise me that the expensive storybooks are not being bought when the cheap paperback novels are also not being bought, because people here don't really care about the narrative as much as the rules, and if the books don't have the rules in them - people here largely don't care about it but continue to play the game.

The insinuation online is that Age of Sigmar is a failure because its limited edition picture book didn't sell out, but where I am sitting thats the farthest thing from the truth. We have a lot of people playing but no one wants an expensive picture/storybook that is not needed to play. They are buying the models and terrain instead.

The normal books aren't selling here either, there are three people that I know of that bought a book. The rest have flatly stated they aren't buying a book they don't need to play the game.

The first two end times books sold a bunch, and a lot of those were to ebay scalpers that were turning around and selling the books for $400 - $500 that very day. After that, the third book was on our shelves for a while and the fourth and fifth didn't move at all (only one person here bought the fourth and fifth end time book). As the ebay scalpers were out in full force on the first two books and books 3 - 5 didn't move so well, that to me makes me wonder how sales really were, and how sales were artificially increased by scalpers hoping to pull a 200-300% profit. Of course, we'll never know that answer but it is truth that the last couple of books especially were available for a long time and they still sit on shelves in places because the interest wasn't there.

Out of a group of over fifty players, four of us bought ANY end times books.



They do but again they are not needed to play. A lot of people here are content to keep banging away at the default scenario in the four pages of rules.

I would have to agree with you that AoS is not a failure because the book is a failure, which I think their book idea is a complete and utter failure and I think sales will show that, the only reason people gobble up their other books is because they have rules and such people want in them.

I will say AoS feels like something of a failure to me because it needs, absolutely needs to be house ruled to make it enjoyable and even somewhat balanced, and because the back story is such a non factor people don't even seem to really care about it. However, I doubt they should care, most of it feels awful and Sigmar and his Sigmarines is about the most Mary Sue force in all creation, opinion all over that statement however. Which is troubling as backstory is near the total draw to me in 40k, so if they take an AoS all over the 40k fluff, it may be complete deal breaker, which would be very sad to me.



Must just be my region then. I know of the guys that play infinity only 2-3 have the rulebook because the other guys just downloaded it for free as well. None of the FLGS stores want to carry the rules because they just sit on the shelf with the exception of one store that carries it.

Some people do like to carry around a regular book, or give money to the company they support, hence they buy the book. That is different with a 4 page rule set however. The fluff for AoS stinks, and art for most of us, doesn't feel worth it, as well the cost is way over the top of what someone would consider reasonable for such a thing. Another thing is everything with AoS is overly expensive, same with GW as a whole, who is going to waste the money on a non essential book that is basically 75 percent TP for all intents and purposes ? Very pretty TP, but TP none the less.

There are plenty of reasons why people would buy a rule book they could DL the rules for free for, GW gives none of that incentive however.


Considering all the new books are are primarily narrative picture books? I'd say it is a failure yes. I think they are priced way too high for what they are and the fact that they are having a hard time moving those shows that few want to spend that much money on a narrative fluff book.

That is a lesson I think they should have learned awhile back. The only reason the supplements did so well for them in 40k was the rules, I'm sure some got them for the fluff but that might be slightly higher then those who buy the AoS books, the vast majority just for the rules. They'd need to be gobsmackingly disconnected from the player base to not understand that.

Zywus
18-08-2015, 00:01
I would have to agree with you that AoS is not a failure because the book is a failure, which I think their book idea is a complete and utter failure and I think sales will show that, the only reason people gobble up their other books is because they have rules and such people want in them.While we can't say defiantly that the failure of the AoS imited ed book means a failure of the game as a whole I'd say it's a pretty strong indication.

Yes, the book isn't needed for the rules. Neither was any of the 8th ed limited books for that matter but I guess there might be a psychological difference in that you used to needed to buy at least a regular book so then it's easier to justify spending some more and get a ltd ed. (Easier to justify increasing your spending from 30£ to 60£ than going from 0£ to 30£ even though the difference in money is exactly the same).

But whatever the reason is, doesn't it spell doom for the game either way? If people for whatever reason isn't invested enough in AoS now, why would they ever become invested in the future?

Spiney Norman
18-08-2015, 00:20
I don't think we can infer that AoS is a failure from the weak sales of the ltd edition, but I think we can be fairly certain that it is not a runaway success.

ooontrprzes
18-08-2015, 01:19
...Easier to justify increasing your spending from 30£ to 60£ than going from 0£ to 30£ even though the difference in money is exactly the same...
We were taught in both psychology and marketing that the human brain thinks in percentages and scales even when not conscious of it. It's the same reason everything costs (x).99 instead of (y).00. The amount of money may be the same, but the percentage markup blows itself out of the water. Day one limited editions are not unheard of, either, but typically they will be successful when the parent company has spent a fair amount of time building hype and expectation. This can be seen in it's purest form with most IP-driven Kickstarters. The problem here (in my lowly opinion) is GW did little to nothing to cultivate excitement for this new product. Their target demographic became flooded with angst rather than anticipation. This led to the "knee-jerkers" (read "early adopters" if you're showing the reports to consumers) seeking outside sources of information (which in marketing is invariably bad). The simple act of not controlling (or at least dominating) the datastream has cost them incalculably. It's still possible to grind back into a decent position, but I really don't think as a company they possess the know-how (based on the gradual erosion we've seen). Of course, a terrible position for them would be high five-worthy for most other companies, so it's not like I think they're filling their pants over this.

Dosiere
18-08-2015, 01:21
I'm not sure it has anything to do with how many people are playing the game. It was a bad idea whatever the case. I was very surprised when they released it, and the same with limited edition ghal Maraz book. First of all they don't give you anything cool for the price, and the books are crap anyway. Save yourself some money and just buy the next edition of warhammer visions, it probably has more interesting reads in it than the first AoS book although probably not as many pictures.

What they should have done is made a compendium after the first 3 or 4 books, and made a limited edition of that. At least then there might be enough content in it to entice people who want it all in one place.

Zywus
18-08-2015, 02:04
The simple act of not controlling (or at least dominating) the datastream has cost them incalculably. It's still possible to grind back into a decent position, but I really don't think as a company they possess the know-how (based on the gradual erosion we've seen). Of course, a terrible position for them would be high five-worthy for most other companies, so it's not like I think they're filling their pants over this.
I think this is the most damning effect of the whole AoS debacle.

While many were unhappy with various GW decisions and policy (unbalanced rules, prices rising etc...) and complained about it constantly, the still IP held a powerful sway over many. It's easy to keep up with a IP by old habit even when you start to enjoy it less and less. Just think about how many kept their White Dwarf subscription long after they stopped being interested in the publication and then finally let it lapse once the magazine split.

It's my prediction that AoS (month of silence followed by a lackluster/baffling release) will have been the "excuse" for many to finally make their 'psychological' split with the Warhammer Fantasy IP and perhaps move to new systems. It would take a lot of work to get the interest and residual goodwill back and certainly nothing of their recent offerings indicate that GW is capable or willing to make a fraction of the effort and inspiration needed for such a thing to materialize.

Sothron
18-08-2015, 04:02
I think this is the most damning effect of the whole AoS debacle.

While many were unhappy with various GW decisions and policy (unbalanced rules, prices rising etc...) and complained about it constantly, the still IP held a powerful sway over many. It's easy to keep up with a IP by old habit even when you start to enjoy it less and less. Just think about how many kept their White Dwarf subscription long after they stopped being interested in the publication and then finally let it lapse once the magazine split.

It's my prediction that AoS (month of silence followed by a lackluster/baffling release) will have been the "excuse" for many to finally make their 'psychological' split with the Warhammer Fantasy IP and perhaps move to new systems. It would take a lot of work to get the interest and residual goodwill back and certainly nothing of their recent offerings indicate that GW is capable or willing to make a fraction of the effort and inspiration needed for such a thing to materialize.

Wow. It is like you read my mind, seriously. I let my White Dwarf sub go after many years when GW split the mag up. This destruction of the setting after I played in it after almost 30 years has completely killed any real interest I have in GW as a company any more. Unless they bring the old setting back I can honestly say Mantic and KoW greatly interest me more than AoS.

MiyamatoMusashi
18-08-2015, 08:59
Wow. It is like you read my mind, seriously. I let my White Dwarf sub go after many years when GW split the mag up. This destruction of the setting after I played in it after almost 30 years has completely killed any real interest I have in GW as a company any more. Unless they bring the old setting back I can honestly say Mantic and KoW greatly interest me more than AoS.

Same for me, including the White Dwarf sub. Even back when I was at Uni and discovered girls and booze and forgot all about wargaming for three years, I still had that White Dwarf arriving on my doorstep once a month to keep me involved in the GW hobby - I was never entirely out of touch. Fast forward a couple of decades, and they can the monthly WD and try to convince me to accept Warhammer Visions instead. Screw that - I'd rather perform a questionable act on Tom Kirby's dog. Subscription cancelled, and the already-fragile relationship between myself and GW was dealt a shattering blow.

But I still love their backgrounds and settings, so there's still that, right? Oh, wait - they just destroyed 50% of it. :shifty: At this point it's like they are actively trying to get rid of me (which people keep claiming is deliberate, but that makes no sense, though I'm fully prepared to believe they may accept losing me as collateral damage, if they replace me with five or six newbs).

...but that doesn't seem to be the case, though, does it? I know (because HelloKitty is repeating it like a broken record) that the rules are free so no-one needs the limited edition, but no-one ever needed ANY of the limited editions, and people still bought them. The fact is that the limited edition book is the only solid data point we have that isn't "in my FLGS...", so let's go with it. Only 2000 - that's two thousand - copies printed, and they can't shift them. That's absolutely appalling. You can make whatever excuses you like, I can guarantee GW will not be satisfied with that. All the limited edition army books sold out in under a week; and alright, players for that army might have "needed" the army book so decided to upgrade, but only one in every fourteen players "needed" that book. One-fourteenth of the audience for a supposedly-failing game bought something they didn't need, but wanted, and it sold out. The whole audience for a new game are being offered something they don't need, but surely ought to want...

...and they don't want it.

Again, make whatever excuses you like. It's only 2000 copies. You only need to convince less than 1% of your target audience to pony up, and you can sell out easily - hell, you ought to be able to sell 2000 copies to eBay scalpers, never mind genuine players. And again, the "normal" edition might be selling, but we don't know, so how about we look at hard facts, and the hard fact is that 2000 copies still have not sold out. And, again, no-one needs the limited edition book, but that didn't stop 8000 people buying a limited edition Space Marine Codex they didn't need, a year or two ago.

I bought the 8th Ed limited edition rulebook. I haven't bought (and will not buy) anything from AoS, limited edition or otherwise. GW have lost me as a player and a customer, by accident or design, and I daresay they wouldn't shed a single tear over that if they replaced me with new players; but the only hard data that we have available suggests very strongly that that is not happening. Clutch at whatever straws you like, but until there's hard data suggesting something different, that's what we have to conclude is going on. The only non-anecdotal evidence we have, shows that AoS is - to speak conservatively - not doing any better than Warhammer was. Even if it's not doing noticeably worse, GW won't be happy with that. Not particularly surprisingly, I am. They've shown (by WD and AoS and all sorts of other examples) that they want me gone. Well, OK. Right back at ya, gee dub.

Niall78
18-08-2015, 09:10
It's my prediction that AoS (month of silence followed by a lackluster/baffling release) will have been the "excuse" for many to finally make their 'psychological' split with the Warhammer Fantasy IP and perhaps move to new systems. It would take a lot of work to get the interest and residual goodwill back and certainly nothing of their recent offerings indicate that GW is capable or willing to make a fraction of the effort and inspiration needed for such a thing to materialize.

In my opinion no matter how hard they work they'll have lost a significant percentage of the old WFB player base. People don't react well to a setting they loved for up to thirty years getting destroyed in the chase for extra corporate profits.

Another massive problem for GW is some of that group of people will be the veterans in their gaming stores/gaming communities. Not only will they spread hate of GW amongst other players they'll also stop introducing new players to GW products and actively push competing systems. The health of any system or setting depends on its play base - those who play the game in public, post about it on the internet and push it in stores or groups. GW have now completely pee'd off a lot of their old player base - it's hard to ever return from such a situation.

My whole group has turned to KoW. GW is now only spoken off in contempt. New players joining our large club will now be exposed to KoW instead of WFB. This seems to getting replicated in many groups in my country. This is a disaster for a games company of epic proportions.

BeardMonk
18-08-2015, 09:37
My whole group has turned to KoW. GW is now only spoken off in contempt. New players joining our large club will now be exposed to KoW instead of WFB. This seems to getting replicated in many groups in my country. This is a disaster for a games company of epic proportions.

Similar in our games club. But we were never a strong GW club. WM/H, Malifaux and the old GW Specialist Games are our thing.

But remember, GAMES Workshop does not see itself as a producer of games. Only miniatures. Still cant get my head around that.

Zywus
18-08-2015, 12:07
In my opinion no matter how hard they work they'll have lost a significant percentage of the old WFB player base. People don't react well to a setting they loved for up to thirty years getting destroyed in the chase for extra corporate profits.Aye. That's what's adding insult to injury.
If GW would, in the future, back off from AoS, create the perfect* 9th edition that's balanced and generally fixing most of the problems people has had in the past I think it would still fail at that point in time. Even if it would have been a succes had it been released directly after 8th. The people getting burned by AoS will be much harder to get back then they would have been to retain. It's so much harder to make people to opt-in rather than keep them from opting-out.

*No product will be liked by everyone but say a 9th ed that would appeal to most of the 8th ed playerbase and re-energizing at leat half of the people who left during 7th and 8th plus getting in some new blood.

Niall78
18-08-2015, 12:21
Aye. That's what's adding insult to injury.
If GW would, in the future, back off from AoS, create the perfect* 9th edition that's balanced and generally fixing most of the problems people has had in the past I think it would still fail at that point in time. Even if it would have been a succes had it been released directly after 8th. The people getting burned by AoS will be much harder to get back then they would have been to retain. It's so much harder to make people to opt-in rather than keep them from opting-out.

*No product will be liked by everyone but say a 9th ed that would appeal to most of the 8th ed playerbase and re-energizing at leat half of the people who left during 7th and 8th plus getting in some new blood.

It's business 101 that you don't do anything to force your existing customers to leave you. Even more important that you don't do things that make existing customers hate you and actively work against your company.

It's far simpler for a company to retain existing customers than hook new ones - especially in a niche industry. AoS is a form of company suicide when looked at in purely business terms. I can't understand the point of the exercise. It's as if GW think there are a huge pool of potential customers who don't play miniature games that will suddenly take up the hobby due to the changes brought about by AoS. There isn't - miniature gaming is niche - to throw away their veteran customers to chase these apparitions was madness.

Yowzo
18-08-2015, 13:42
It's far simpler for a company to retain existing customers than hook new ones - especially in a niche industry. AoS is a form of company suicide when looked at in purely business terms. I can't understand the point of the exercise. It's as if GW think there are a huge pool of potential customers who don't play miniature games that will suddenly take up the hobby due to the changes brought about by AoS.

Evidently they think so. GW reps openly talk about "bitter vets" and expect retailers to focus on newcomers to shape in the GW mould.

Now I hear mixed reviews on the situation on the ground. Here AoS hasn't caused a tiny blip on the radar. Some people bought the box (mostly for the minis) but very few games are actually being played as most just stick with 8th.

But on a bigger store 2h away AoS seems to have gained traction and even brought some vets over from retirement.

As usual, we'll have to follow sales before branding AoS a total failure, but the signs are there.

Tokamak
18-08-2015, 14:24
Yeah you're correct that the collector editions are the only public indicator. A highly flawed one of course, but still the only thing to go by. Would be better to find a better limited edition to compare it to though. Dark Eldar has been supported and people were craving a new codex.

plantagenet
19-08-2015, 03:44
There is also google analytics where it can be see that after a nice peak Age of Sigmar is less searched for term than warhammer fantasy. Also eBay prices would suggest things from a demand point of view things are not amazing with prices of most units not high. Blood reavers for example are now selling at around half the price they were asking at release. Which was not the case with units form the 8th edition starter.

Don't get me wrong none of them are concrete indicators of an issue but might suggest things could be going better

75hastings69
19-08-2015, 05:59
It's business 101 that you don't do anything to force your existing customers to leave you. Even more important that you don't do things that make existing customers hate you and actively work against your company.

It's far simpler for a company to retain existing customers than hook new ones - especially in a niche industry. AoS is a form of company suicide when looked at in purely business terms. I can't understand the point of the exercise. It's as if GW think there are a huge pool of potential customers who don't play miniature games that will suddenly take up the hobby due to the changes brought about by AoS. There isn't - miniature gaming is niche - to throw away their veteran customers to chase these apparitions was madness.

^ spot on. They should be aiming for retention and recruitment - through ADVERTSISING. Instead they've gone for wiping out I'd say a good 75% of the existing fantasy customer base and they're replacing it with what exactly? Still no external advertising, I and others are openly negative to newcomers about GW and their products, so they can't rely on word of mouth either to do them good. Any 40k people buying into AoS will surely limit the amount they spend on 40k. etc. etc. I just don't see who the target market is for this product, it's premium priced (and quality is good), the "rule" lack any real depth and beyond using them for the box set are pretty much useless, so it's not aimed at hardcore strategist types, it can't be aimed at the casual market as the minis are still quite complex and require glue, paint, time etc. as opposed to other pre painted casual games, again advertising was non existent, everyone in doubt until a few weeks before release, with NO fanfare etc. outside of WD or GW stores (which are only read on the whole by people ALREADY in the hobby). The literature/fluff is so bably written that it must surely be aimed at early teenagers. I am sure this has fail written all over it. Sure there'll be a spike in sales because it's new, and people are trying to grab stuff for old WFB before it possibly disappears for good. I

Shifte
19-08-2015, 08:09
Most alarmingly for GW is the fact that AoS seems to be bombing in the UK. I hear a few anecdotes from US based gamers saying that some people are playing it, but the UK community seems far more viciously appalled by it all. That is ultimately GW's core market, so the game is screwed.

Spiney Norman
19-08-2015, 08:28
Most alarmingly for GW is the fact that AoS seems to be bombing in the UK. I hear a few anecdotes from US based gamers saying that some people are playing it, but the UK community seems far more viciously appalled by it all. That is ultimately GW's core market, so the game is screwed.

Yeah, we're a pretty unforgiving bunch when it comes to dicking over our favourite game ;)


^ spot on. They should be aiming for retention and recruitment - through ADVERTSISING. Instead they've gone for wiping out I'd say a good 75% of the existing fantasy customer base and they're replacing it with what exactly? Still no external advertising, I and others are openly negative to newcomers about GW and their products, so they can't rely on word of mouth either to do them good. Any 40k people buying into AoS will surely limit the amount they spend on 40k. etc. etc. I just don't see who the target market is for this product, it's premium priced (and quality is good), the "rule" lack any real depth and beyond using them for the box set are pretty much useless, so it's not aimed at hardcore strategist types, it can't be aimed at the casual market as the minis are still quite complex and require glue, paint, time etc. as opposed to other pre painted casual games, again advertising was non existent, everyone in doubt until a few weeks before release, with NO fanfare etc. outside of WD or GW stores (which are only read on the whole by people ALREADY in the hobby). The literature/fluff is so bably written that it must surely be aimed at early teenagers. I am sure this has fail written all over it. Sure there'll be a spike in sales because it's new, and people are trying to grab stuff for old WFB before it possibly disappears for good. I

But they have an international chain of high street stores which are open four days a week (except for lunch times) and have one whole hobby specialist dedicated to selling models in every store, how could AoS possibly not be selling with that kind of infrastructure behind it? :shifty:

75hastings69
19-08-2015, 08:38
The locations of several of the stores are far from great. For example the chestefield store is out of the main shopping area, in fact you'd only find it if you were actively looking for either it or one of the smaller shops close by. Canterbury, same story. Aberdeen, same story..... etc. etc.

Kaptajn_Congoboy
19-08-2015, 08:50
Most alarmingly for GW is the fact that AoS seems to be bombing in the UK. I hear a few anecdotes from US based gamers saying that some people are playing it, but the UK community seems far more viciously appalled by it all. That is ultimately GW's core market, so the game is screwed.

That would be a total disaster for AoS. WHFB was always very strong in the UK and Europe in general. In Norway (at least in the eastlands and capital), the established gaming scene seems lukewarm to it, and the vets are emigrating en masse to WM/H and to a lesser extent KOW (with their old miniatures), feeling rather betrayed. The only non-GW game store in Oslo has, as far as I understand, had some sales but it is hardly flying off the shelves. I don't know how the GW is doing. The main online distributor dropped GW earlier this year, so those two stores are likely the main movers of AoS product. If AoS is to have any success here, the GW store must bear the load of recruitment.

My general impression - from anecdotes - is that the established scene worldwide has not embraced AoS. There are many stories of it taking 40k customers and bringing some retired players back. The first is not ideal for GW, so AoS' success or failure might depend on them bringing new players into the game on a massive scale. That means we will not be able to determine the truth of things until we see GW's next financial report, and likely not until the next one after that.

Herzlos
19-08-2015, 09:32
Most alarmingly for GW is the fact that AoS seems to be bombing in the UK. I hear a few anecdotes from US based gamers saying that some people are playing it, but the UK community seems far more viciously appalled by it all. That is ultimately GW's core market, so the game is screwed.

This seems to fit in with the observation someone else made about who is getting into AoS. It seems that those invested in WHF are not interested in AoS, whilst some of those who weren't invested in WHF but play 40K are jumping across to get some fantasy action. Warhammer Fantasy was pretty popular in the UK, so it makes sense that most of the UK gamers are falling into that category.

Certainly, in my club there was a brief flutter of talk on AoS (mostly along the lines of "WTH?" "Really?") and then it's not been mentioned again. Oldhammer is still being played, but the primary fantasy game is currently Frostgrave). We're a fairly big club with a lot of 20-40 year old gamers who started with GW and likely all have half a dozen armies in the attic. There was barely any mention of it at the big annual convention here too (1 barely used demo table and a stack of starter sets). Maybe the other clubs are different, but it really doesn't seem to have taken off here at all.

I fully believe that it is doing quite well in some places, but I'm curious about their demographic - I'm assuming predominantly younger (under 30) 40K players who were put off of Oldhammer due to the cost/complexity.

Rakariel
19-08-2015, 11:08
After AoS has hit some time ago I can make a cautious assessment of how it is doing in my direct area. Previously we had about 25 active Fantasy Players, a mix of fluff and competitive ones. When AoS went live there was some very vivid talk about it, most of us tried it, some didn`t, some raged and some tried to defend it. What I have witnessed since then is a massive migration to other game systems, most prominently Wm/Ho or KoW (of course mostly competitive players). Some of us (fluff players for the biggest part) keep on playing 8th.

Apart from the initial talk and playtesting when AoS went live there are at the moment no games whatsoever, none, zero. Not even the ones defending it at first have any intention of playing. Even talk about it is dying down continuously. Of course the possibility stands that someone is playing it at home, but its nobody that is involved in our gaming scene. I have also talked to owners of our LGS and none reported AoS selling particularly well. Sure some (me included) bought the starter box or the odd scenery or unit there and then, but most do to include the models for existing Fantasy armies to play 8th or even to build units for KoW (some of the Sigmarine models are a good use for Basileans). The best part of AoS for me are the miniatures. While arguably aesthetically a matter of taste (as with everything else) I think they are well done from a technical point of view. That said, I haven`t really bought alot so far, I keep on waiting what they have done to the other armies. If I like it and can include it for 8th or KoW I will buy it, if I`dont I won`t. The thing is, would they have released a 9th edition instead, I would have already spent a whole lot more. I just don`t want to invest all too heavily in something, that feels like a cheap platform to sell miniatures devoid of an interesting setting or a competent set of rules (far more so than it was in the past). I guess they should just sell their models and let other companies handle the rest.

I have no idea if our area is exemplary for the whole or not, I guess the game is doing well in some parts, it has to so it doesn`t get cancled in a year. Some people like it and thats great for them, I`m just not sure if GW wasn`t banking on a much bigger success. As far as I understand, Fantasy made them too little profit but I honestly don`t see AoS doing anywhere near as well.

Drakkar du Chaos
19-08-2015, 12:03
I have no idea if our area is exemplary for the whole or not, I guess the game is doing well in some parts, it has to so it doesn`t get cancled in a year. Some people like it and thats great for them, I`m just not sure if GW wasn`t banking on a much bigger success. As far as I understand, Fantasy made them too little profit but I honestly don`t see AoS doing anywhere near as well.

Nobody can say if its gaming area is exemplary for the whole you are right. As far as i can tell in France AoS does not seem to doing well either, my gaming area has numerous GW players (around 50, maybe more, you never know) and the first month my local game store sold 4 AOS box and none at my club play nor talk about AOS. The summer is what it is so there is not much WHB games played right now but 8th tournament will be back at the end of the month and nothing indicate AOS are going to change that.

About the big picture i think AOS was aimed for the US market because Warmahorde has made so much progress in the US these last years but GW seem to have forgotten Warmahorde dont do well in Europe.
In my area absolutly nobody play it so again its not a big surprise AOS failed.

Kaptajn_Congoboy
19-08-2015, 13:26
About the big picture i think AOS was aimed for the US market because Warmahorde has made so much progress in the US these last years but GW seem to have forgotten Warmahorde dont do well in Europe.
In my area absolutly nobody play it so again its not a big surprise AOS failed.

WM/H seems to be doing quite well in Europe, at least in the Scandinavian, UK, Low Countries and German markets. AoS is no direct competitor to Warmachine/Hordes, though. It is much closer to 40k in terms of how it plays and its aesthetics.

Rakariel
19-08-2015, 13:28
About the big picture i think AOS was aimed for the US market because Warmahorde has made so much progress in the US these last years but GW seem to have forgotten Warmahorde dont do well in Europe.
In my area absolutly nobody play it so again its not a big surprise AOS failed.
Interesting thought. Well all I can say is, in my area pretty much noone played Wm/Ho. I guess all combined we had about 60-70 players (40k and Fantasy) and only about 5-10 played Wm/Ho previously. Since AoS hit that number more than trippled (nearly 30 players now). This is not just a trend in my direct area however, other states have stated a similar trend.

If PP really wasn`t doing too well in Europe before, well AoS made it a seller, atleast in my area.

Tau_player001
19-08-2015, 13:35
It's business 101 that you don't do anything to force your existing customers to leave you. Even more important that you don't do things that make existing customers hate you and actively work against your company.

It's far simpler for a company to retain existing customers than hook new ones - especially in a niche industry.
And more importantly. Cheaper.

Niall78
19-08-2015, 13:36
And more importantly. Cheaper.

Price is a big factor in these economic times. For adults as well as teenagers.

Herzlos
19-08-2015, 14:27
Cheaper for GW - it costs an estimated 10x more to acquire a new customer than to keep an existing one. It's why the likes of Sky & AOL will throw months worth of free packages at anyone threatening to leave - it saves them a fortune.

HammerofThunor
19-08-2015, 17:22
But they run off monthly subscriptions. If their sales were routers or TV boxes it would be very different.

ooontrprzes
19-08-2015, 17:26
Customer acquisition cost is always an important number, and with the recent hit consumer goodwill has taken that number is likely on the rise significantly.

Sephillion
19-08-2015, 17:49
But they run off monthly subscriptions. If their sales were routers or TV boxes it would be very different.

Wargames are like a subscription-based product. The companies expect you to buy continuously, or at least regularly, and need to keep you in “their” camp. A router is a one-time deal (usually), you don’t really have customers to “retain”, at least not as actively as something like a wargame.

So in the case of GW, it would have been cheaper to retain their customers, and expand from it, rather than go back to GO.

Finnigan2004
19-08-2015, 18:10
Wargames are like a subscription-based product. The companies expect you to buy continuously, or at least regularly, and need to keep you in “their” camp. A router is a one-time deal (usually), you don’t really have customers to “retain”, at least not as actively as something like a wargame.

So in the case of GW, it would have been cheaper to retain their customers, and expand from it, rather than go back to GO.

The subscription cost for GW was always the new units, the magazines (with little to no content this is basically an add on), and the especially the books for the game that were updated quite often. Changing their book model will be interesting, and I think that the chinks in the armor are starting to show with the inability to move the books. On the other hand, I think that moving to a two year cycle-- like with 40k-- is bound to crash and burn too.

HammerofThunor
19-08-2015, 18:21
Wargames are like a subscription-based product. The companies expect you to buy continuously, or at least regularly, and need to keep you in “their” camp. A router is a one-time deal (usually), you don’t really have customers to “retain”, at least not as actively as something like a wargame.

So in the case of GW, it would have been cheaper to retain their customers, and expand from it, rather than go back to GO.

You don't need to keep buying stuff. They may want you to but once you have your tactical squads you don't need to buy the new set. People do because they're better quality in the same way they can continue to use their router instead of purchasing a new fancy one.

So it what way is it cheaper for GW to retain customers instead of getting new ones?

Finnigan2004
19-08-2015, 18:27
Evidently they think so. GW reps openly talk about "bitter vets" and expect retailers to focus on newcomers to shape in the GW mould.

I hear this from time to time, and am baffled by the stupidity involved in coming up with this "plan". If your customers are bitter, find out why you made them angry and work to fix it-- or at the very least try not to repeat it with the new customers you attract. I've said it before, but it bears repeating-- if you think that your customers are the problem with your business, you have a real problem.

Just Tony
19-08-2015, 18:28
Existing customers tend to expand their armies as they see new tactical approaches and the like. The buy in for a standard sized game is also steep for a new player who doesn't really have a good idea of what units will work for their play style, when a vet will be able to start a second/third/twelfth/whatever army and know exactly what they want. The redoing perfectly functional sprues has been a driving force in the ridiculous price increases, added to recovery expense for failed games/oil prices/price push to see what the community is still willing to pay. Longbeards have an idea of the worth of a unit. A new guy walks in, sees a tiny war machine model for $60 US approximately, and walks right back out.

HelloKitty
19-08-2015, 18:44
I hear this from time to time, and am baffled by the stupidity involved in coming up with this "plan". If your customers are bitter, find out why you made them angry and work to fix it-- or at the very least try not to repeat it with the new customers you attract. I've said it before, but it bears repeating-- if you think that your customers are the problem with your business, you have a real problem.

Also remember that, at least to my knowledge, there is no link or source that anyone at GW actually said this, this was postulated by the community and has passed via urban legend into a fact.

HammerofThunor
19-08-2015, 18:53
Existing customers tend to expand their armies as they see new tactical approaches and the like. The buy in for a standard sized game is also steep for a new player who doesn't really have a good idea of what units will work for their play style, when a vet will be able to start a second/third/twelfth/whatever army and know exactly what they want. The redoing perfectly functional sprues has been a driving force in the ridiculous price increases, added to recovery expense for failed games/oil prices/price push to see what the community is still willing to pay. Longbeards have an idea of the worth of a unit. A new guy walks in, sees a tiny war machine model for $60 US approximately, and walks right back out.

So you're saying that new players generate less money because they have to spend more? And your numbers of new buyers (even if it's buy and army, get bored and drop it) are coming from where? Do we actually have any idea how much current buyers and new buyers spend per year?

Just Tony
19-08-2015, 19:03
So you're saying that new players generate less money because they have to spend more? And your numbers of new buyers (even if it's buy and army, get bored and drop it) are coming from where? Do we actually have any idea how much current buyers and new buyers spend per year?

No, I don't have the time and resources to post a person in every store on the planet and interrogate every player walking through the door during business hours. What I DO have are teenage boys. Their friends and them both commented on the entry cost of an army as the barring factor to playing Warhammer. They game, they just don't play Warhammer. Had they been able to use my armies whenever they wanted, they would have played while building a force up since budget is a thing. Most new players in our gaming clubs were nursemaided through the buying process, and either encouraged or discouraged from certain purchases. We even had a table specifically for 1,000 point games for people to cut their teeth on the new army they were working on. Had we not been there to shepherd them, I sincerely doubt they would have stayed as long as they did. Of the players that joined at that time, each got an army for both systems, and by the time I moved out of the town, had expanded to standard sized second armies in both systems. Back then, it cost about $90 US to get a battalion/battleforce then an additional purchase for character. What did $90 get you in 8th? Or the latest 40K? A book, and a box of Core/Troops if you do it right. Buy in for a 1,000 point army is at least twice what it was just a decade ago. Now take that into consideration with who is buying the most product. Gamers that have been at it a while who have gained better jobs to afford more stuff expanding their multiple armies or starting another one.

HelloKitty
19-08-2015, 19:10
I do know that the average player of games where I am will not spend more than $100 on a game or a board game unless its phenomenal. Thats why the average player of games where I am do not play tabletop games in general but would never consider warhammer of any edition.

A lot of my friends have board game collections that are huge and get into the thousands of dollars, but they will *not* spend that much on models.

Baragash
19-08-2015, 19:40
Also remember that, at least to my knowledge, there is no link or source that anyone at GW actually said this, this was postulated by the community and has passed via urban legend into a fact.

When I worked as a red shirt 2001-05 it as part of the company's own store strategy.

Drakkar du Chaos
19-08-2015, 20:00
When I worked as a red shirt 2001-05 it as part of the company's own store strategy.

And a lot of people like you who worked for GW said the same thing.
GW dont give a **** about customers. Its a fact.

Finnigan2004
19-08-2015, 20:19
And a lot of people like you who worked for GW said the same thing.
GW dont give a **** about customers. Its a fact.

As I said, the stupidity of such an approach is staggering.

Sothron
19-08-2015, 20:25
As I said, the stupidity of such an approach is staggering.

Sadly this is the same company that thought throwing a 30 year old IP out the window because they couldn't copyright names was a sound business decision. Who needs existing customers?

Sephillion
19-08-2015, 21:16
You don't need to keep buying stuff. They may want you to but once you have your tactical squads you don't need to buy the new set. People do because they're better quality in the same way they can continue to use their router instead of purchasing a new fancy one.

So it what way is it cheaper for GW to retain customers instead of getting new ones?

The existing customer will want to expand his army. He will need to update his books. It’s easier to provide incentives to buy a new shiny (“look at that nice new character!”) to someone who has already made the plunge than to get someone to fork hundreds of dollars to get started. Plus, to get a new customer, you need to compete with all other wargames out there – it’s not like GW is the only one out there.

Existing customers are more likely to visit your site, to visit stores where they sell your products, than non-existing customers, so they require less marketing budget. You need to invest to get the attention of someone who’s not your customer. A new player might require time from your sellers to learn the game; they might need to do a demo game to convince you.

It's always a good investment to try and get new customers, I don’t think anyone is arguing otherwise. But it should never come at the cost of your existing customer. Something that AoS did.

Buddy Bear
19-08-2015, 21:18
When did that special edition go up for preorder, anyway?

Tokamak
19-08-2015, 21:26
"Jup, now I've spend all the money I ever wanted to spend on my enjoyable hobby"

said no one ever.

HelloKitty
19-08-2015, 22:01
"Jup, now I've spend all the money I ever wanted to spend on my enjoyable hobby"

said no one ever.

Actually - that is about the mindset of many guys I know and why they never got into tabletop gaming in the first place. When they play RPGs they grumble about having to buy a rulebook.

Niall78
19-08-2015, 22:40
Actually - that is about the mindset of many guys I know and why they never got into tabletop gaming in the first place. When they play RPGs they grumble about having to buy a rulebook.

I've found in different RPG groups, clubs and on internet forums that new releases are usually highly anticipated. The only grumbling is when rules and source books aren't being released fast enough or of a high enough quality.

It's a strange outlook to me. A fan and user of a game lamenting new releases for the setting they enjoy.

HelloKitty
19-08-2015, 22:46
They don't want to spend money. They want it to be like a board game. You go, buy the game, and you don't spend anymore money. They also complain when video games they play release DLC that they have to pay for.

AngryAngel
20-08-2015, 00:51
They don't want to spend money. They want it to be like a board game. You go, buy the game, and you don't spend anymore money. They also complain when video games they play release DLC that they have to pay for.

This bears saying, sounds like an issue for your local area, in mine people actually look forward to the game expansions and the like. If the game is good, you want to add to it. Same goes for a video game so long as it is adding and not releasing something half done, then releasing the rest as DLC. The only lamenting of new releases we had, in the golden age, was when stuff was awful when it dropped.

Cheap people will be cheap, simple as that. GW simply pushes even not cheap people to draw that line in the sand.

That said, I've known plenty of cheap gamers with your mentioned mindset kitty, however it ends up being mostly rpg gamers I've noticed that with, and not all, just some. Most of the people I game with currently love expansions and new releases so long as they are good.

Zywus
20-08-2015, 06:02
"Jup, now I've spend all the money I ever wanted to spend on my enjoyable hobby"

said no one ever.


Actually - that is about the mindset of many guys I know and why they never got into tabletop gaming in the first place. When they play RPGs they grumble about having to buy a rulebook.And that's a good illustration of why focus on new customers over your old ones is a dumb prioritization.

It's such a common line thrown around that GW doesn't (or even shouldn't) care about veteran customers, since they already have an army and don't need to purchase anything; while the new player does.

The kind of people who not only get into wargaming and miniature collecting in the first place, but get in to it deep enough to purchase, paint and game with a functional army is very probably the kind of person who will want to collect another, or expand their original one to a size well beyond the average game. How many people purchased a 2000p fantasy army, kept playing with it and never added anything again? Not a very large percentage I hazard.

scruffyryan
20-08-2015, 06:11
And that's a good illustration of why focus on new customers over your old ones is a dumb prioritization.

It's such a common line thrown around that GW doesn't (or even shouldn't) care about veteran customers, since they already have an army and don't need to purchase anything; while the new player does.

The kind of people who not only get into wargaming and miniature collecting in the first place, but get in to it deep enough to purchase, paint and game with a functional army is very probably the kind of person who will want to collect another, or expand their original one to a size well beyond the average game. How many people purchased a 2000p fantasy army, kept playing with it and never added anything again? Not a very large percentage I hazard.

I had almost 10k points in lizardmen at my peak.

Losing Command
20-08-2015, 06:32
And even old customers who don't buy minatures anymore often still purchase things like paint and the like. Finishing a whole army takes quite some time and resources, and you even have people crazy enough to go back to armies they painted when they started the hobby and do it over to get it up to their new standard. Why would a company actively want to get rid of those people ?

Just Tony
20-08-2015, 06:33
Even though I'm switching back to Classichammer, I still plan on expanding my High Elves army well past a normal size. Same goes with every other army I play.

Leogun_91
20-08-2015, 08:07
I have several armies at 2k (and most of them above that) and still get a new one each time we play an escalating campaign at our gaming club (about once a year). I bought every warhammer fantasy rulebook they released and have a collection of all 8th edition books and most 7th. It also got me into Warhammer 40k where I collect more than I play (though I like to bring out my daemons from time to time). The fact that I now no longer will buy from Games Workshop due to them dropping the game I loved will not change my thirst for new models or my love for the setting but it means that I will find other ways to buy models and recommend them to others, have allready got about six people on the local club into alternative manufacuters for their models. That is something that will hurt them and I no longer see that as a bad thing. I was often accused of being a GW fanboy and now I see it as a benefit if my way to purchase or play actually hurts Games Workshop. Extreme actions have extreme reactions and I am sure that Games Workshop will soon note them.

Herzlos
20-08-2015, 09:47
The kind of people who not only get into wargaming and miniature collecting in the first place, but get in to it deep enough to purchase, paint and game with a functional army is very probably the kind of person who will want to collect another, or expand their original one to a size well beyond the average game. How many people purchased a 2000p fantasy army, kept playing with it and never added anything again? Not a very large percentage I hazard.

It used to be that everyone I knew that played 40K/Fantasy had multiple armies for each, and with smaller games it's more common (Blood Bowl, Malifaux, Mordheim and so on). I don't know of a single gamer that got their list completed and then stopped buying, though it seems more common now to have a faction or 2 per system and move on. I.e. in the 90's I had a probably 5 GW armies + Blood Bowl team + 2x 6mm WW2 armies, now I have 2 (smaller) GW armies, plus 4 FoW armies, a double-sized Malifaux army, 3 ancients armies, 2x 28mm WW2 armies, an X-Wing faction and so on. I still spend as much as I did even though I've hit a point where I don't "need" any more of it.

A new player, by contrast, might just pick up a starter box and some paints before moving on to another hobby.

Yowzo
20-08-2015, 09:53
Also remember that, at least to my knowledge, there is no link or source that anyone at GW actually said this, this was postulated by the community and has passed via urban legend into a fact.

The owner of my FLGS said that's precisely what the GW rep told him when he complained basically no current warhammer player took AoS.

Yowzo
20-08-2015, 09:57
I've found in different RPG groups, clubs and on internet forums that new releases are usually highly anticipated. The only grumbling is when rules and source books aren't being released fast enough or of a high enough quality.

Usually the grumbling went along the lines of all the armies get new shiny toys but not mine! I don't think the strategy of doing armybook by armybook instead of a constant new stream of new kits for different armies was sound.

Everyone wanted to get their hands on shiny new kits (especially if they came with OP rules).

Spiney Norman
20-08-2015, 09:57
And that's a good illustration of why focus on new customers over your old ones is a dumb prioritization.

It's such a common line thrown around that GW doesn't (or even shouldn't) care about veteran customers, since they already have an army and don't need to purchase anything; while the new player does.

The kind of people who not only get into wargaming and miniature collecting in the first place, but get in to it deep enough to purchase, paint and game with a functional army is very probably the kind of person who will want to collect another, or expand their original one to a size well beyond the average game. How many people purchased a 2000p fantasy army, kept playing with it and never added anything again? Not a very large percentage I hazard.

Personally the way I used to collect was to buy an army, collect it to about the 2k mark (because that was pretty much the level we always played at), maybe a little above to allow me some flexibility in list building then start a completely new army. I was always notoriously bad at painting many repeat copies of the same miniature and it was variety that kept me from losing interest in the hobby.

Generally what happened was that after I'd built the initial army I would go back to it and buy a few bits and bobs every time a new book was released for that army and I had to change things up to be competitive. The exception to the rule is lizardmen, my first ever warhammer army, for which I have around 8000 points because I just can't seem to stop buying dinosaurs.

Sureshot05
20-08-2015, 10:20
Well, back on topic. Both limited edition AoS releases, the initial book (2000) and quest for the Ghaz Maraz (1000), are still on sale. I wonder whether they will sell out by Christmas? I suspect that will be when the remaining copies are snapped up, if they are going to be.

I would love to know figures for the new units, and how they are selling. My flgs has said that AoS sold okay, but the figure sets sales have been poor.

El_Commi
20-08-2015, 10:24
They don't want to spend money. They want it to be like a board game. You go, buy the game, and you don't spend anymore money. They also complain when video games they play release DLC that they have to pay for.

Sounds a lot like the RPG players I know.

I dm a 5th ed group atm. (Moved over from WFRP 3rd) and there's 1 Phb between 6 of us, (5 players 1 DM). Noone else will buy a phb because we already have 1 ¬_¬

Herzlos
20-08-2015, 13:36
Well, back on topic. Both limited edition AoS releases, the initial book (2000) and quest for the Ghaz Maraz (1000), are still on sale. I wonder whether they will sell out by Christmas? I suspect that will be when the remaining copies are snapped up, if they are going to be.

I'm assuming at some point GW will pull them from the website, claiming they sold out. If they have any smarts, they'll then send the remaining copies out to stores to see if they can tempt anyone that way, before dumping them.

But then, the LE Hobbit box is still on sale, so who knows.

Sephillion
20-08-2015, 14:32
Sounds a lot like the RPG players I know.

I dm a 5th ed group atm. (Moved over from WFRP 3rd) and there's 1 Phb between 6 of us, (5 players 1 DM). Noone else will buy a phb because we already have 1 ¬_¬

I think there is a difference between an RPG and a wargame. Give me a decent RPG and bestiary and I can probably run years of adventure; the stories are limitless, players are usually interested in seeing their character grow (whether in power or in more role-playing aspects), and there are usually classes or other character variety that a player can do a few campaigns without ever playing the same character twice.

Most people who play wargames don’t play just one list. Even hardcore competitive players usually have more than their basic list to try things out – swap out units, add some items there, etc.

I do find it surprising that players groan at new books. It’s, like, optional.

Spiney Norman
20-08-2015, 18:23
Well, back on topic. Both limited edition AoS releases, the initial book (2000) and quest for the Ghaz Maraz (1000), are still on sale. I wonder whether they will sell out by Christmas? I suspect that will be when the remaining copies are snapped up, if they are going to be.

I would love to know figures for the new units, and how they are selling. My flgs has said that AoS sold okay, but the figure sets sales have been poor.

It will certainly be a damning indictment of the game if they are still knocking around after Christmas.

Whirlwind
20-08-2015, 19:40
Part of there problem is that they are just not limited anymore. LE books use to be once in a blue moon items that. Once GW started producing them every other week the perception of them will/has changed (and that they aren't anything special). They are also not required to play the game, so you are effectively paying £45 for a book that you will get a few pages of use out of in the long term (assuming you play the scenarios a few times); unlike the old army books and rulebook which you more or less use consistently. Considering that it was viewed positively that rulebooks/army books had gone away what they have been replaced with are less useful but more expensive...

AngryAngel
20-08-2015, 20:30
Sounds a lot like the RPG players I know.

I dm a 5th ed group atm. (Moved over from WFRP 3rd) and there's 1 Phb between 6 of us, (5 players 1 DM). Noone else will buy a phb because we already have 1 ¬_¬

I hate that, I always ended up the one who had my own book, very annoying.



It will certainly be a damning indictment of the game if they are still knocking around after Christmas.

I can't see them being bought out even then, they just aren't needed, if someone wanted it, they might as well just buy the standard book and even then I don't see people even caring about that, its just too expensive with a fluff/art book with not really rules, rules. Why not spend that christmas money on other games, or if on GW, models, which you actually would need ? A very hot year for video games, if such is your inclination, I just don't see anyone derping hard enough to care about picking up a limited edition AoS book.



Part of there problem is that they are just not limited anymore. LE books use to be once in a blue moon items that. Once GW started producing them every other week the perception of them will/has changed (and that they aren't anything special). They are also not required to play the game, so you are effectively paying £45 for a book that you will get a few pages of use out of in the long term (assuming you play the scenarios a few times); unlike the old army books and rulebook which you more or less use consistently. Considering that it was viewed positively that rulebooks/army books had gone away what they have been replaced with are less useful but more expensive...

Very well said there.

HelloKitty
20-08-2015, 20:42
I really don't think that the books will be sold out by christmas. They aren't needed and few people are going to pay $150 for a pretty picture book that has nothing that they need in it.

Rakariel
20-08-2015, 20:53
Quite interesting however that limited edition Army books sold out in no time. They didn`t offer the player anything beside a pretty dust jacket, the rules inside could have been obtained at a much cheaper price aswell.

scruffyryan
20-08-2015, 21:12
If they spent the money they did on making expensive dice rollers and books chock full of bad fiction and reused artwork and 150 dollar limited editions of rules they put up for free paying someone to tighten their rulesets and supporting the more popular specialist games *coughmordheim* they'd probably be in a better position as a company.

Captain Marius
20-08-2015, 21:27
I don't like that gw and black library are so into limited edition books. I think they are having a negative impact on the games and the supporting fiction respectively.
For years i've spent more on GW books than on models, just to keep up. Last year my biggest item of buyers remorse was the digital edition of 40k 7th ed, awful format, absolutely useless. I since bought the Deathstorm and Dark Vengeance boxes so me and me mafe have mini rulebooks and they are great. This year i bought the SM codex and its rubbish, i cant even be bothered to read it, let alone play 40k - i wish i'd just bought models instead.
With AoS I am doing that! I've bought more wfb models this year than in the past three years combined, and cos the rules are free I can use them as soon as they're painted (personal preference!)
Now I havent bought any AoS books because A theyre ludicrously expensive and B my group are using the AoS rules to play through the End Times, which provide a complete story we can adapt as we like.
I'm not against the AoS fluff released so far, but i'll give it a year to see where its going before i invest in it, and i certainly wont be buying £45 books, let alone limited editions to play games in it!

Leogun_91
20-08-2015, 21:43
It will certainly be a damning indictment of the game if they are still knocking around after Christmas.
Now that's a bit harsh. Even I think GW will survive past christmas.

Just Tony
20-08-2015, 22:15
Now that's a bit harsh. Even I think GW will survive past christmas.

He meant the book, not the company

Leogun_91
20-08-2015, 23:24
He meant the book, not the company Ah...yes, the problems of internet irony. Just made a jab at the poor state of the companny these days.

Tyranno1
20-08-2015, 23:26
Ah...yes, the problems of internet irony. Just made a jab at the poor state of the companny these days.

Jab noted, laughed at, and applauded.

Spiney Norman
21-08-2015, 00:12
Now that's a bit harsh. Even I think GW will survive past christmas.

Of course they will, even if AoS had crashed and burned already the company wouldn't have gone bust just yet. All I meant was with all the additional gift money flying around at Christmas if the Ltd eds don't sell then they never will.

Kisanis
21-08-2015, 02:46
I just can't justify spending money on books for a game that I somewhat find ok.

I would rather put that 100$ or whatever to finding good condition copies of my 5th & 6th edition army books, or 2nd edition 40k

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DVeight
21-08-2015, 03:41
I have both limited ed. books. The battle plan A4 card sleeves in the second book are great. Puzzled why they didn't do that for the first book. Would be nice to have a collection of battle plan card sleeves. The price is all about what the market is willing to bear. is it not selling because its a new product or because a large chunk of the player base has abandoned the game? That is open to speculation.

The books though are very nice. As always, the limited ed. stuff is of good quality. At the same time I also bought the Star Wars Force and Destiny book from FFG. Very nice quality, great art work. Less than half the price. If there is some angst at GW headquarters I hope they are realising that their prices are precluding the wider base from buying their product.

Buddy Bear
21-08-2015, 04:29
I think it's the latter. If the player base were there, then surely 2,000 of them would've sprung for the limited edition. Even I, who never buy limited edition books, took the plunge and got the recent limited edition Codex: Space Marines (and that was after buying the regular codex), and from what I remember, they sold out almost immediately. The player base was there and GW was able to move those limited editions. That they can't move these, I believe, says quite a bit about Age of Sigmar's player base, or the lack thereof.

HelloKitty
21-08-2015, 12:14
I dont think it means that all. We have a large playerbase and only a couple bought the book, the rest dont need the book and are t paying for a book they dont need


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Rakariel
21-08-2015, 12:28
I dont think it means that all. We have a large playerbase and only a couple bought the book, the rest dont need the book and are t paying for a book they dont need
But didn`t you say previously that most of your playerbase doesn`t want to buy any additional stuff like expansions but "buy the box and start playing"? I`m sorry if I remember incorrectly but if your playerbase mostly consists of people who really don`t want to buy anything on top of the crucial things they are not really exemplary for this whole argument of why the AoS limited edition doesn`t sell well.

Limited Editions are never needed, they are only a shiny version of something that is either available cheaper or even for free. Still, before AoS they sold like hot cakes even though they were not needed at all.

Spiney Norman
21-08-2015, 13:08
Limited Editions are never needed, they are only a shiny version of something that is either available cheaper or even for free. Still, before AoS they sold like hot cakes even though they were not needed at all.

The thing is, there are really only two reasons to buy a ltd edition, either because you are so emotionally invested in the game/setting that you're prepared to put extra money in to get the special stuff, or as an investment because you believe that after it sells out at some future date you will be able to sell it for a lot more than you paid for it in the first place.

I struggle to see how either could be true for many folks at the moment regarding AoS, the game is still too young and underdeveloped to have a real fanatical following yet, and given how slow sales of the ltd ed have been going the investment route seems very dodgy indeed.

HelloKitty
21-08-2015, 13:23
But didn`t you say previously that most of your playerbase doesn`t want to buy any additional stuff like expansions but "buy the box and start playing"? I`m sorry if I remember incorrectly but if your playerbase mostly consists of people who really don`t want to buy anything on top of the crucial things they are not really exemplary for this whole argument of why the AoS limited edition doesn`t sell well.

Limited Editions are never needed, they are only a shiny version of something that is either available cheaper or even for free. Still, before AoS they sold like hot cakes even though they were not needed at all.

the thing is I don't see my community as somehow being distorted and strange compared to everyone else. The limited edition isn't selling here simply because no one needs it to play and nobody is going to spend $150 on a picture book. The limited editions were needed before because they were the limited editions of the army books and you needed the army books to play the game. The limited rulebooks were needed to play the game. You either bought the ltd edition army book or the normal one but either way you needed the army book to play the game because it had your army's rules. You do not NEED the age of sigmar books to play the game at all.

The Age of Sigmar book is a $150 novel with a handful of scenarios. Gamers that care nothing about the background would be paying $150 for a handful of scenarios. That price point is grossly too high for a handful of scenarios, as is $75 which is why that book here is also not moving, not because we have no players. If the book was $25 for normal and $50 for limited edition, then MAYBE you would see it move but at its current price point for a product that you can totally live without (unlike the army books of the past) it should surprise no one that it is not moving and few care about it.

At last count we have 45 players total playing AoS in some capacity. Of which five or so bought a book and a few people bought a book that don't play in the store (not counted among the 45). Of over fifty people, about five also bought the end times books. The percentage here is about the same.

Now the first two end times books rolled well, but a lot of those went to ebay scalpers. You couldn't get a book within 10 minutes of pre orders going live because ebay scalpers were buying 20-30 of them at a time and then selling them less than an hour later on ebay for $300 - $400. Once book #3 hit (Khaine), we had no problem getting a copy if we wanted it because sales had slowed, and by Book #4 and #5, the books sat on shelves forever because no one needed end times to play the game and Nagash held a lot of emotional investment to a lot of people who used to play way back when but *gamers* (that being people that play games largely to play games that hold narrative and artwork as secondary or ancillary if they even notice them at all) largely did not care about the end times books if they had no investment in say Nagash because there was nothing in End Times that was needed to play 8th edition fantasy, there were no rules they needed, and clubs and tournaments were not universally letting you use end times models in their events (much like how forgeworld used to be)

Unless where I live and play is just somehow the twilight zone of gaming and everywhere else people flock to limited edition books, I'm going to say that I don't think it has anything to do with people not playing the game and everything to do with the books contain next to nothing gaming-wise, and gamers that care mostly about gaming things aren't going to spend $150 on a book that has nothing in it that they care about.

Malagor
21-08-2015, 13:30
But again, you don't need limited edition armybooks/codex or rulebooks, you have never ever needed them as long as there was a standard edition released alongside them.

HelloKitty
21-08-2015, 13:35
But again, you don't need limited edition armybooks/codex or rolebooks, you have never ever needed them as long as there was a standard edition released alongside them.

You're missing my entire point. You needed the rulebook to play the game. You don't need the Age of Sigmar book to play the game. People bought limited edition rulebooks because they were going to buy a rulebook anyway. The people NOT buying Age of Sigmar limited edition books are also NOT buying Age of Sigmar regular edition because they are NOT required to play. People are not going to shell out $150 for a book that they are not going to use in the game. People shelled out money for limited edition former books because they were going to use them in the game. If those books in the past were not useful to the game they also would have sat collecting dust on warehouse shelves.

The postulation is that the books aren't moving because no one is playing, and that is very very false. There are a lot of people playing the game, they just have no interest in spending that kind of money on a book that they don't need to play.

If someone has hard proof to the contrary please link me to it. I don't know many people that actually bought limited edition anything from GW, but those that did use them regularly in their games.

Saying nobody in your area plays AoS and thats proof is not proof because just this morning a fellow from my city posted a rant this morning in a facebook group about how AoS sucks and no one in my city plays either. Despite the fact we have close to 50 people actively playing it.

Yowzo
21-08-2015, 13:54
I don't know many people that actually bought limited edition anything from GW, but those that did use them regularly in their games.

I don't think so. In my experience most of the people who buy limited editions are mostly the hoarder type rather than the gamer type.

They tend to be people who are 10, 20 or more years in the game and want their collection to look complete. Play games every now and then, but usually are the fluffier types who just go out to tournaments to showcase their armies and have a good time rather than play the latest tournament netlist. Those were the types who bought all End Times books and a a Nagash, even if they didn't play undead. Just because the books looked ace and the mini was impressive.

Now, since GW has for the most part alineated those vets (AoS is too far removed from warhammer) so for the most part they have declared WHFB finished, and little intention to start AoS.

The strategy of luring new, fresh gamers pretty much excludes collector editions.

Rakariel
21-08-2015, 14:51
People bought limited edition rulebooks because they were going to buy a rulebook anyway.
I`m sorry but that is just not true. I never bought any limited edition army book because I just don`t need them and the same applies to the majority of my playerbase. I however bought every single regular army book GW put out, even for armies I didn`t have at home at that time. Hell I even bought the first regular AoS rulebook even tho the rules are free. I bought it because I collect books and also because I want a book in my hand when playing a game. According to your reasoning I should have bought the limited edition because I was going to buy the regular book anyway. This is just bull sorry.

I`m refering to what Spiney said earlier, you are going to buy a limited edition either if you are emotionally invested enough or you just want to sell it at a higher price once its sold out. You honestly cannot put out an argument that everyone who was going to buy a rulebook just takes the limited edition because "pfffft who cares if its double the price!" Apart from that, I would never use a limited edition to play games with, its limited, I want to keep it in prime condition.

If we had this conversation about the normal AoS rulebook, then yes, I would be agreeing with you. The book is not needed as the rules are free anyway. The limited edition however is a whole different story as a limited edition brings nothing else to the table apart from being limited.

Edit: To clarify, I am a collector. I bought alot of books from GW just no limited ed. army books because I don`t see the point in buying limited versions of books that get updated every few years. However The End Times, campaign and similar books do sit in my shelf and I am glad I have them. Thankfully I was cautious with AoS and didn`t buy the limited version. Its the first book I wanted to return to my shop because its just a complete waste of paper.

HelloKitty
21-08-2015, 15:41
I`m sorry but that is just not true.

Its true for pretty much everyone that I know and have played with. So while it is not true universally it is true for a lot of people.

Still - the postulation is that no one is buying a $150 limited edition picture book because no one is playing Age of Sigmar, and thats also not true.

thesoundofmusica
21-08-2015, 15:53
reading the last couple pages I do have to wonder how many times Hellokitty can be misinterpreted. Not to "brag" but I got it the first time :rolleyes:

shelfunit.
21-08-2015, 15:53
You either bought the ltd edition army book or the normal one but either way you needed the army book to play the game because it had your army's rules.

I think this is where people are getting confused. I've never heard of anyone buying a Limited edition anything to actually *use*. People buy a limited edition to sit on the shelf, a collectors item, not something to actually do anything with. That is what the standard editions are for, and, with rules/games of any type it has never been an either/or situation - you bought the standard edition to use, and the limited edition as a display piece. With AoS it is no different - people will use the standard edition to play with, and the collectors edition will be for the "display cabinet", the difference being people had enough of an interest, and connection to the game (Warhammer) to want a collectors item for it, with AoS there is no connection, and little interest.

Rakariel
21-08-2015, 16:00
reading the last couple pages I do have to wonder how many times Hellokitty can be misinterpreted. Not to "brag" but I got it the first time :rolleyes:
We all know that you are special ;)

Just Tony
21-08-2015, 17:51
You're missing my entire point. You needed the rulebook to play the game. You don't need the Age of Sigmar book to play the game. People bought limited edition rulebooks because they were going to buy a rulebook anyway. The people NOT buying Age of Sigmar limited edition books are also NOT buying Age of Sigmar regular edition because they are NOT required to play. People are not going to shell out $150 for a book that they are not going to use in the game. People shelled out money for limited edition former books because they were going to use them in the game. If those books in the past were not useful to the game they also would have sat collecting dust on warehouse shelves.

The postulation is that the books aren't moving because no one is playing, and that is very very false. There are a lot of people playing the game, they just have no interest in spending that kind of money on a book that they don't need to play.

If someone has hard proof to the contrary please link me to it. I don't know many people that actually bought limited edition anything from GW, but those that did use them regularly in their games.

Saying nobody in your area plays AoS and thats proof is not proof because just this morning a fellow from my city posted a rant this morning in a facebook group about how AoS sucks and no one in my city plays either. Despite the fact we have close to 50 people actively playing it.

See, here's the thing. You don't NEED to buy ANY book to play AoS, unless you plan on using scenarios. That much you have absolutely right. You also don't need anything other than a copy of the rulebook and the standard Codex for your army to play 40K. We can agree on that? I knew we could. Using that logic, there is no reason to buy the limited edition 40K ANYTHING since the standard is all you need. I also don't need fuzzy dice on my mirror to drive my car, but there are lots of people who buy them.


reading the last couple pages I do have to wonder how many times Hellokitty can be misinterpreted. Not to "brag" but I got it the first time :rolleyes:

So here you are with another sarcastic noncontribution to a thread. Tonight after work I'm going to buy a bottle of Jagermeister and do a shot every time you do that in a thread. I bet I'll be drunk in under 20 minutes.

Spiney Norman
21-08-2015, 18:00
I think this is where people are getting confused. I've never heard of anyone buying a Limited edition anything to actually *use*. People buy a limited edition to sit on the shelf, a collectors item, not something to actually do anything with. That is what the standard editions are for, and, with rules/games of any type it has never been an either/or situation - you bought the standard edition to use, and the limited edition as a display piece. With AoS it is no different - people will use the standard edition to play with, and the collectors edition will be for the "display cabinet", the difference being people had enough of an interest, and connection to the game (Warhammer) to want a collectors item for it, with AoS there is no connection, and little interest.

Hmmm, I'm clearly using my Ltd edition lizardmen army book wrong then, I take it to every game I play with them because I love to show it off, if all it ever did was sit on a shelf somewhere I'd be the only one who got to see it (well ok, my wife as well, but she doesn't appreciate the finer things in life ;)).

I certainly never even considered buying a regular version of the book as well, I struggled to justify the price of the ltd ed as it was (and it was around half what the ltd eds cost now).

ihavetoomuchminis
21-08-2015, 18:01
And if you do it everytime he (she?) makes a personal attack and/or kitty talks about how his (her?) store customers have embraced AoS because it's a blast, in under 5 minutes.

HelloKitty
21-08-2015, 18:03
I also don't need fuzzy dice on my mirror to drive my car, but there are lots of people who buy them.

If you didn't need or own a car in the first place you also wouldn't buy fuzzy dice to put on the mirror of a car you didn't own.

Spiney Norman
21-08-2015, 18:07
If you didn't need or own a car in the first place you also wouldn't buy fuzzy dice to put on the mirror of a car you didn't own.

Are you saying if people don't play AoS they're less likely to buy the books? Isn't that kind of self-evident?

And how many people have a set of furry dice that cost £90 hanging from their rear view mirror...

Sephillion
21-08-2015, 18:42
I kind of agree with Hello Kitty (for once! :P ). I understand the difference between a) having to buy a book and deciding to pay a little extra (OK, a big extra) for a limited edition and b) not having to buy a book at all since the rules are free and deciding to pay a lot for a limited edition book that I won’t “need” at all. Does it mean AoS is successful or not? I’d say it’s a clue that points to “no”, but a clue that doesn’t really have much weight, so who knows?

HelloKitty
21-08-2015, 18:50
Are you saying if people don't play AoS they're less likely to buy the books? Isn't that kind of self-evident?

And how many people have a set of furry dice that cost £90 hanging from their rear view mirror...

No. that's entirely NOT what I'm saying. I'm saying that people that play AoS need no books at all and are not going to buy a $150 picture book that they will never use.

The counter argument is that if people were playing the game that they would buy the $150 picture book because people bought the ltd rulebooks (that you needed to play)

I'm saying and have said that very few people are going to buy a $150 narrative picture book that is not needed at all to play because A) they don't need any version of a book to play, and B) $150 is extremely high priced for what amounts to a coffee table decoration.

If I don't need the book to play, I'm not going to buy the book. That also means i"m not going to buy the ltd edition book either.

If I need a rulebook to play I'm going to buy the rulebook. If I'm super invested in the system I may consider buying the ltd edition rulebook.

This stems all the way back to someone saying "no one is playing AoS and thats why the ltd edition rulebook is still for sale", which I said that I disagree and don't feel thats why and laid out the above for, as well as an anecdote about how fifty fantasy players in my city play AoS and only five or so bought any of the book (two ltd edition, three normal). The rest of the books are still on shelves, and what is cited by the other forty-plus people that didn't buy the book is "i don't need the book to play and i'm not paying $75 for a book I don't need"

Spiney Norman
21-08-2015, 19:09
Fair enough, personally I think a lot of people will buy the regular version, ok they don't need it, but the appeal of the basic game slugfest does wear out pretty quickly and the scenarios in the books are one of the ways to develop the game and make it interesting. I didn't need to buy the storm of magic book or the triumph and treachery book or the sigmars blood book or the end times books to play wfb, but I did (and so did many others) because I enjoyed exploring new ways to play the game.

HelloKitty
21-08-2015, 19:33
Those are good points.

Also in my group only two guys owned those books as well. Kind of like RPGs... one person buys the handbook the rest just use his.

Just Tony
21-08-2015, 19:39
And if you do it everytime he (she?) makes a personal attack and/or kitty talks about how his (her?) store customers have embraced AoS because it's a blast, in under 5 minutes.

I've come to the conclusion that HK lives in Bizarroworld, since they have the exact opposite experience to ANY anecdotal evidence ever presented. At least it seems that way...


If you didn't need or own a car in the first place you also wouldn't buy fuzzy dice to put on the mirror of a car you didn't own.

And if a meteor the size of Pluto strikes the earth, nobody would be alive to buy dice. How does EITHER point correlate with the discussion?


No. that's entirely NOT what I'm saying. I'm saying that people that play AoS need no books at all and are not going to buy a $150 picture book that they will never use.

The counter argument is that if people were playing the game that they would buy the $150 picture book because people bought the ltd rulebooks (that you needed to play)

I'm saying and have said that very few people are going to buy a $150 narrative picture book that is not needed at all to play because A) they don't need any version of a book to play, and B) $150 is extremely high priced for what amounts to a coffee table decoration.

If I don't need the book to play, I'm not going to buy the book. That also means i"m not going to buy the ltd edition book either.

If I need a rulebook to play I'm going to buy the rulebook. If I'm super invested in the system I may consider buying the ltd edition rulebook.

This stems all the way back to someone saying "no one is playing AoS and thats why the ltd edition rulebook is still for sale", which I said that I disagree and don't feel thats why and laid out the above for, as well as an anecdote about how fifty fantasy players in my city play AoS and only five or so bought any of the book (two ltd edition, three normal). The rest of the books are still on shelves, and what is cited by the other forty-plus people that didn't buy the book is "i don't need the book to play and i'm not paying $75 for a book I don't need"

NOW I see why you tried to correlate that, but I found a flaw in the red text. Isn't the free download a copy of the book, essentially? I mean, you have to have rules of SOME sort to play, unless you're doing "PEW PEW" like we did with the green army men when I was a child. So in short, you DO need the rules if you are playing the game, so it IS the same thing regardless of the free download or not.

HelloKitty
21-08-2015, 19:45
Tony - you're splitting hairs now to try and win an argument. Most people know perfectly well what I mean when I say you don't need a version of the book to play. the company provides a free copy of the rules. No you do NOT need to buy a limited edition book or the other non limited edition book to play the game because the company has provided you and me with a free version of the rules.


I've come to the conclusion that HK lives in Bizarroworld, since they have the exact opposite experience to ANY anecdotal evidence ever presented. At least it seems that way...

Trying to say someone's personal experiences don't happen or qualify your own as the norm and others as abhorrent is also known as gaslighting, which is a form of trolling (intended or not) because it does nothing for a conversation other than to attack the other person and is often used to just bait someone into an emotional response.

I presume you have a solid list of anecdotal evidences provided by others to back that claim up? Or can we stop trying to attack the posters now?

Choombatta
21-08-2015, 20:09
Isn't the free download a copy of the book, essentially? I mean, you have to have rules of SOME sort to play, unless you're doing "PEW PEW" like we did with the green army men when I was a child. So in short, you DO need the rules if you are playing the game, so it IS the same thing regardless of the free download or not.

I am pretty sure even you realized HK meant you do not need any version of the book, because the rules are free to download. No definition of book would ever include a 4 page item, and you cannot even begin to compare paying $150 for a 200+ page book to getting a 4 page pamphlet for free.
Also, as HK has pointed out multiple times, if one player in your group has the rules, then every other player in the group does not NEED the rules, it can be shared among the group.
At least for our group, only 1 person bought all the End Time books. We still can play all the End Time games we want, without me having to buy all the books also.

Zywus
21-08-2015, 20:55
Its true for pretty much everyone that I know and have played with. So while it is not true universally it is true for a lot of people.

Still - the postulation is that no one is buying a $150 limited edition picture book because no one is playing Age of Sigmar, and thats also not true.
I do agree with you that the fact that rules are now free does probably influence the sales of this limited edition. If you were going to buy a book anyway it's easier to justify to yourself, adding money for a ltd than it is to buy a version of something that you don't strictly "need" (although from what I understand, at least a regular version of this book is quite essential to keep AoS gaming varied).

However; it's hard to see the low sales of the ltd book as anything other than a sign that AoS as a whole is not doing too well. It's not that "no one is playing AoS". It would be quite a strawman to claim people are saying that literally so I presume you meant it figuratively as in "interest in AoS is low".

For every person interested in AoS there is a chance that they'll purchase the LtD book. Even if a AoS player is less likely to purchase a ltd book than a 8th ed player was to buy the ltd book for their army it's hard to imagine that the difference would be all that dramatic. If AoS doesn't have even 2000 hardcore enthusiasts, how many regular players can there really be? Say that the AoS ltd book is 10 times less attractive to buy than "uppgrading" your regular Lizardmen armybook purchase (which sold out quickly, but just 1000 copies I believe). Is the AoS players less than 20 times the number of Lizaerman players in 8th. That doesn't seem like a sustainable playerbase if 8th as a whole were not so in GW's eyes.

And other reasons put forth for why the ltd ed isn't selling (like Limited books selling better to people invested in a 3 decade old ad fleshed out setting) are generally reasons that also speaks for the game itself floundering.

Just Tony
21-08-2015, 22:02
Tony - you're splitting hairs now to try and win an argument. Most people know perfectly well what I mean when I say you don't need a version of the book to play. the company provides a free copy of the rules. No you do NOT need to buy a limited edition book or the other non limited edition book to play the game because the company has provided you and me with a free version of the rules.

Okay, if pointing out a flaw in logic is splitting hairs, then call me a razor. Maybe I approaced this wrong, lets try a different analogy. You have to drink water to survive. Typically, you have access to water damn near everywhere whether via fountain at an establishment or work, or as part of your utilities at home. By that logic, nobody in those areas should ever buy bottled water, especially the higher priced premium bottled water, right? In the trash can next to me at my work station are 5 empty water bottles discarded by the operator of the machine next to mine. There is a fountain exactly 20 ft. away from both our work stations. A superfluous purchase is a superfluous purchase no matter how you slice it. It's no different than people choosing to pay money to eat on a military post when they get free food at the chow hall. Or, since you WERE in the military if memory serves, being issued uniform items and going out and buying items with either different comfort adjustments or lower maintenance like Cloroframs (sp? Those dress shoes that you used Windex instead of shoe polish that people used to buy instead of shining their low quarters.) Humans do irrational things, you need to account for that in your model. THAT is the point people are really trying to get when refuting your posts. For my part, I went about it a different way, and it wasn't the best. However, it bought me time to come up with a better example.


Trying to say someone's personal experiences don't happen or qualify your own as the norm and others as abhorrent is also known as gaslighting, which is a form of trolling (intended or not) because it does nothing for a conversation other than to attack the other person and is often used to just bait someone into an emotional response.

Gee, did I ever say my experieces were "right" compared to yours? No, if anything I've made strides in most threads I post in to try to knock down anecdotal evidence as it can't be corroborated without actual evidence, as your next line will allude to.


I presume you have a solid list of anecdotal evidences provided by others to back that claim up? Or can we stop trying to attack the posters now?

In what context? Meaning evidence of your posts being the opposite of what someone else has posted? Once I'm done with the parts tubs and the machine is in auto, I'll take time to collate. And it wasn't an attack, it was a playful jab because of the coincidence of contradictory evidence. Now, however, I will find it and PM you. But we will indeed keep this off the boards.


I am pretty sure even you realized HK meant you do not need any version of the book, because the rules are free to download. No definition of book would ever include a 4 page item, and you cannot even begin to compare paying $150 for a 200+ page book to getting a 4 page pamphlet for free.
Also, as HK has pointed out multiple times, if one player in your group has the rules, then every other player in the group does not NEED the rules, it can be shared among the group.
At least for our group, only 1 person bought all the End Time books. We still can play all the End Time games we want, without me having to buy all the books also.

So in your group you share one book to mitigate purchases. I know groups that use torrents and don't buy the books at all. Going by that, no LTD ED book should ever sell out at all. Yet they do, except for The Hobbit and this one right now. Give it time, it may sell, but anecdotal evidence doesn't give me hope.

Katastrophe
21-08-2015, 23:13
I disagree completely with all the back and forth. I suspect few if any persons that purchased limited edition books did so for the purpose of playing the game or their use for gaming. The standard edition could be used for that. Limited edition purchases most likely were for collecting and as such suggest less interest in AoS sparking collectors. To spend the extra money for the limited edition.

Purchase of the collectors edition in AoS or 8th had little relevance to the books game usage.

Shifte
22-08-2015, 00:23
Well, another aspect to this is Army Loyalty.

When we describe ourselves as WHFB players, we usually lead with what army we play. When discussing the lore, most of us identify with our favourite army. So we buy these books because within our groups "I am the Empire player!", f.ex.

There is no equivalent to this in AoS. In fact it is almost the opposite, because of the four armies thus far presented very few people will have an attachment to them. Certainly not enough to buy an expensive and limited edition fluff book.

Stormcast Eternals? Who -actually- cares about them?

Khorne Blood Warriors? Er, they're kind of related to Warriors of Chaos Khorne armies. That's not a huge playerbase, though, and isn't tied directly into WoC.

Skaven Clan Pestilens? Similar problem to the above. Some like Pestilens but it was never the most popular Skaven aspect.

Sylvaneth? You've basically told Wood Elf players not to care about these. Alarielle (a High Elf) leads them, you've ripped them out of the WE army and there are no Elves involved.

Tell me, what would I actually be buying? AoS is in trouble and this is just one symptom.

Scribe of Khorne
22-08-2015, 00:33
The book is still available because I would imagine LE's sell to those with an emotional nonsensical investment in X, where the LE item pertains in some way to X.

I for example almost got the LE Khorne Daemonkin, but nothing else even made me think of spending that much.

Nobody will have that unreasonable level of personal attachment to something that is brand new, so the pool of people buying up these books will be smaller.

2K total, and some still being available just means the scalpers didnt try and gouge folks on it.

Kisanis
22-08-2015, 03:14
My quick thoughts on the limited edition thing.

Macklemore said it best; limited edition lets to some simple addition.... I call that getting swindled and pimped,
I call that getting tricked by a business

Sent from my Z30 using Tapatalk

Wishing
22-08-2015, 08:14
Nobody will have that unreasonable level of personal attachment to something that is brand new, so the pool of people buying up these books will be smaller.


I agree with this. Nobody has any personal nostalgic attachment to AoS yet. I would also say that the fact that AoS is the brand new thing on the block that GW is trying to push through all available channels probably makes it feel less "special", so there seems to be less point in buying a limited edition. People are just going "Okay, let's see where this is going", not "OMG my heart is skipping because of this release I have wanted so long".