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EagleWarrior
16-07-2015, 17:30
Most of the comments, positive and negative, I've about Age of Sigmar so far have been about the rules and gameplay, which are certainly a significant departure from what we've seen before. But the changes to the background are possibly even more radical, they destroyed the world and built a new one along totally different lines. They brought gods right into the action directing a whole new faction.

So what do you think of the new background? Good change? Bad change? Merits to both? Terrible and should die? Let me know what you think. :D

Charistoph
16-07-2015, 17:34
It reminds me a little of the DeathGate Cycle books by Weis & Hickman on one hand. It definitely allows for a more robust selection of environments, for sure, and for some races to be able to be more diverse, such as Fire Dwarfs or Life Dwarfs, and allow for players to more define their own armies.

HammerofThunor
16-07-2015, 17:39
I think it has potential but too early to say too much. I don't care about the names we have so far. New names always sound weird.

AngryAngel
16-07-2015, 17:39
It reminds me a little of the DeathGate Cycle books by Weis & Hickman on one hand. It definitely allows for a more robust selection of environments, for sure, and for some races to be able to be more diverse, such as Fire Dwarfs or Life Dwarfs, and allow for players to more define their own armies.

Nice to know someone who actually read those books as well. Where they fail, in the AoS fluff is the goofy names, all the race names that make it sound like it fell out of the stupid tree and hit every branch on the way down. It feels like they gave minimal thought to some of these names and items, sigmarite ? Really ? Ur gold ? I shouldn't have expected more after the Astra Miliarum but they took the ball and ran with it for AoS.

Shandor
16-07-2015, 18:01
Most of the comments, positive and negative, I've about Age of Sigmar so far have been about the rules and gameplay, which are certainly a significant departure from what we've seen before. But the changes to the background are possibly even more radical, they destroyed the world and built a new one along totally different lines. They brought gods right into the action directing a whole new faction.

So what do you think of the new background? Good change? Bad change? Merits to both? Terrible and should die? Let me know what you think. :D

Im getting sick by reading it in german. Its half translated..
"Wenn ein Wizard einen Death bolt zaubert..." something like that.

Its really hard to read for me.

Dosiere
16-07-2015, 18:26
I like it overall, I think it allows for more room for both the hobbyists and GW to make cool stories. The old world was awesome in its own way, but limited potential story options.

They missed a great opportunity in their first novel though to add some depth and character to it AoS. It's basically just one battle scene. Really disappointed by it, I was hoping for something that made you care about the world and its characters. I was hoping for something more along the lines of the Malazaan books or the better Horus heresy ones, instead it felt more like an un illustrated comic book.

Col. Tartleton
16-07-2015, 18:41
I think if it had been written by a literate human instead of a team of trained monkeys banging on typewriters we might have gotten better results.

By having a dozen or so different planes of existence they've obviously given the players a lot of canvas to paint their own landscapes on. That's good, but it came at the cost of a very well fleshed out setting. Instead we get what amounts to:

"In the shining plane of Azyr, in the fair land of Sigmaron, among the soaring towers of Azyrheim, the shimmering Stormcast Eternals, wielding blessed hammers, forged from the radiant Sigmarite, battle the forces of darkness for Sigmar, the God King of Azyr!"

I guarantee humans are like best case scenario. The other races are going to be worse. Worst of all now we know this wasn't even Mat Ward's fault. This is just what it looks like when you don't have Rick Priestly.

Groza
16-07-2015, 18:46
The old world was awesome in its own way, but limited potential story options.

Every time someone says this I make this face irl :wtf:

Ayin
16-07-2015, 18:48
GW Wanted to make a new game with their most successful property, Space Marines, and wrote the world accordingly. The God-Emperor with the gestalt power of those who have come before him but not having originated as a Warp Being rising to challenge the Gods of Chaos and creating his super warriors. Only departure is instead of going out to conquer a lost and strange galaxy, it's a series of realms he flat out made. Add in some post creation 'but then XYZ was petulant and their forces deserted the Emperor..' for every group so that all groups have reason to fight each other, and there you go.

It's "meh" to me. They haven't had years (decades, actually) to build on it and dozens of good minds adding to it, so I don't expect a great deal right off the bat, and it's not a creation that's supposed to stand alone as a literary accomplishment. It's nowhere near as good as even the oldest fluff of the (original) god-Emperor and his legions of enhanced warriors, let alone later generational expanded Heresy fluff, but it's simpler, easier to follow. The good(est) guys are good-er, their intentions more clear to us and to them. Like i said, it's a vehichle to introduce the 'best' parts (brightest and most fan friendly) of their most successful property into a new game line.

malisteen
16-07-2015, 18:50
What I've seen, I quite like.

Dosiere
16-07-2015, 19:03
Every time someone says this I make this face irl :wtf:

Assuming I understand why you make that face, I think the evidence of it is in every major campaign GW ever put on. Trying to include all the races and have these huge invasions constantly didn't really make sense. You could only destroy Kislev so many times, and try to explain why lizardmen are fighting battles against badland orcs in middenland before it got stupid. I'm not saying you couldn't make great stories in the old world, in fact it had plenty of character to do just that. In the context of trying to make stories that included he major factions and big battles though it was limited. Because of the world you also couldn't change much without drastically altering or eliminating factions. Storm of chaos was an example of a huge epic fail, so much so that everyone essentially pretended like it never happened.


For better or worse, the worlds of AoS allow more room to simply have stuff happen than the old world ever realistically did. Whether that means we actually get a more interesting setting or not remains to be seen.

Matthias Thulmann
16-07-2015, 19:04
The scope of the expanded worlds allows GW some more flexible leway to destroy areas without massively affecting the overall universe. The whole thing is a blank canvas so far, I am looking forward to reading some foundation fluff in the AOS book.

I did read the mini novel which was disappointing tbh. Not a lot happened and it did not tell us a lot.

dalezzz
16-07-2015, 19:07
It seems alright ( other than the names) and if they had kept the olde worlde alongside it Id probably quite like it....... Except for the names of course :shifty:

Grok
16-07-2015, 19:23
I don't think I know enough about the new fluff yet to make a solid judgement. I like the Sigmarines, for much the same reasons I like Shpash Mareenz, and the chaos stuff looks pretty much the same, but we still have meny more armies and races yet to appear in their new version so I can't yet pass judgement on the whole setting.
I'll probably dig it after the resentment for it replacing the old warhammer cools down some more.

AngryAngel
16-07-2015, 19:24
Every time someone says this I make this face irl :wtf:

I do as well.


Assuming I understand why you make that face, I think the evidence of it is in every major campaign GW ever put on. Trying to include all the races and have these huge invasions constantly didn't really make sense. You could only destroy Kislev so many times, and try to explain why lizardmen are fighting battles against badland orcs in middenland before it got stupid. I'm not saying you couldn't make great stories in the old world, in fact it had plenty of character to do just that. In the context of trying to make stories that included he major factions and big battles though it was limited. Because of the world you also couldn't change much without drastically altering or eliminating factions. Storm of chaos was an example of a huge epic fail, so much so that everyone essentially pretended like it never happened.


For better or worse, the worlds of AoS allow more room to simply have stuff happen than the old world ever realistically did. Whether that means we actually get a more interesting setting or not remains to be seen.

This seems like a really silly statement. So, its more logical, armies traverse realities or realms of being to battle one another, then just travel across one planet/land mass to fight one another ? That is the thing that just strains realism. Some dwarves busting through to the death realm to fight some skeletons, well that just makes so much more sense then lizard men fighting orcs in the badlands ? It feels like people telling themselves it makes sense, and it will be so much better and repeating so it becomes truth.

The Old world had plenty of room for story and narrative, if anything I'd say AoS is actually what lacks the narrative. The mechanics of the game make it feel like a mini game with little real fluff to care about aside from mighty sigmarines attacking everywhere to bring them to the emperor of man..I mean Sigmar !!

Dosiere
16-07-2015, 20:06
Who said anything about logic or realism? Within the context of the two games I would say yes though it makes more sense for a random army of dwarves to wage a war against a random army of skeletons in AoS than it did for a random army of xxx to fight a random army of xxx in the old world. If anything the silly fluff excuses for why this army is fighting this army in WFB often detracted rather than added to the setting. When WFB made sense it was 100x better fluff than this AoS crap, my point is that it often didn't.

Again, I did not say the old world lacked character or good stories, but there is no doubt AoS is simply a larger playground that is designed to allow the clashing of armies from those realms to make more sense in the context of the fluff. If you hate the idea of multiple magical realms and a decidedly less realistic fantasy setting that AoS represents then of course you are going to hate it. In its current state it lacks any endearing qualities to me personally, in fact I was really let down by the first novel. Literally all I am saying is that AoS is simply a larger setting.

HelloKitty
16-07-2015, 20:07
It has potential. It reminds me of a mix between Clash of the Titans and Mad Max.

Philhelm
16-07-2015, 20:11
I much prefer the Old World, but I frankly don't know all that much about the new setting other than what has been leaked. GW wants to sell me models for a game set in a super secretive game setting for some reason (I know, I know, GW isn't a games company).

We don't really know anything about the (normal) humans, which bothers me since I believe that the human faction will set the tone for the overall setting (for instance, if the Empire was modeled after Romans instead of the HRE, it would influence the context of the other races). I'm also bothered that we don't see any villages; all the terrain consists of hellish Chaos fortresses, realm gates, and floating doo-dads. Are there any farmers in the new setting?

In fairness, I do believe that the different realms could be interesting, especially if we see how the different races are influenced by each realm, such as fire humans, life humans, death humans, etc. That's if GW doesn't drop the ball.

Groza
16-07-2015, 20:23
Assuming I understand why you make that face, I think the evidence of it is in every major campaign GW ever put on. Trying to include all the races and have these huge invasions constantly didn't really make sense. You could only destroy Kislev so many times, and try to explain why lizardmen are fighting battles against badland orcs in middenland before it got stupid. I'm not saying you couldn't make great stories in the old world, in fact it had plenty of character to do just that. In the context of trying to make stories that included he major factions and big battles though it was limited. Because of the world you also couldn't change much without drastically altering or eliminating factions. Storm of chaos was an example of a huge epic fail, so much so that everyone essentially pretended like it never happened.


For better or worse, the worlds of AoS allow more room to simply have stuff happen than the old world ever realistically did. Whether that means we actually get a more interesting setting or not remains to be seen.
Having a setting with less rules doesn't really give you more options. It just removes depth from the stories you'll come up with.
Furthermore, your argument seems to be examining GW campaigns. That's not what we were talking about. GW's incompetence is one thing and it's an entirely different thing to examine how possible it is for players themselves to come up with stories in the old world on which to base their armies and campaigns around. And I think there is plenty. Ok, maybe there is no reason for lizardmen or tomb kings to fight Wood Elves. So what? Why does everything have to be possible? Would that really make the game better?
I can only see it as a problem if you play ONLY lizardmen and your ONLY opponent plays ONLY Wood Elves and you both want to have a strong narrative in your battles AND to not bend the lore too much.
I'm sorry but that's too unlikely a reason to lash out against a setting which is so rich and with so much depth compared to the cluster*$(@ that AoS gives us.

To me it's a bit like cheatcodes in games like GTA. Now I've never actually played that game but I remember in old magazines where they told you which codes you can enter to summon an airplane to your location and things like that. Well that's great, and convenient, and possibly might be fun. But can you even compare it to actually playing the game the way it was meant to be played, by following the story and making the best of what is available in your environment? And if you really, really like flying airplanes and a certain mission doesn't allow it, will you actually let that get in the way of your enjoyment?

EDIT: And I really want to explain my disdain for the AoS lore. It's not just that it is new and demolishes the old fluff to take its place. I just find it so goddamn CHEAP when a setting, especially for a wargame and not, say, an action movie revolves around "planes" and "realms" and "alternate dimensions". This isn't kingdom hearts. We have States, and elector counts and borders and a city that bought its way out of the empire because an emperor was incompetent. And we had only one "realm" and it was the other half of the heart and soul of the setting, where imagination could run wild and all sorts of magical things could happen without removing all those qualities from the actual world.

Sothron
16-07-2015, 20:28
It is pathetic. It does not hold a candle to what came before it. This is not a real setting. It is literally GW copyright lawyers huddling together trying to come up with names and looks to models to keep them copyrighted. They have a race called Steamhead dumdums. As a lifelong fan of the game and setting since it almost started this whole crap is just a slap in the face.

The new setting bothers me far more than the AoS rules.

Buddy Bear
16-07-2015, 20:38
If they're trying to create a copyriteable setting, then they failed miserably, because this setting is a straight up ripoff of Norse mythology and the Nine Realms. Even Sigmar has become a clone of Thor with all the lightning elements and the Stormcast Eternals being basically Einherjar.

Sothron
16-07-2015, 20:41
I much prefer the Old World, but I frankly don't know all that much about the new setting other than what has been leaked. GW wants to sell me models for a game set in a super secretive game setting for some reason (I know, I know, GW isn't a games company).

We don't really know anything about the (normal) humans, which bothers me since I believe that the human faction will set the tone for the overall setting (for instance, if the Empire was modeled after Romans instead of the HRE, it would influence the context of the other races). I'm also bothered that we don't see any villages; all the terrain consists of hellish Chaos fortresses, realm gates, and floating doo-dads. Are there any farmers in the new setting?

In fairness, I do believe that the different realms could be interesting, especially if we see how the different races are influenced by each realm, such as fire humans, life humans, death humans, etc. That's if GW doesn't drop the ball.

Are there any farmers? Why, you mean steamhead faermers? Who toil the field for Siganch and raise Sigovine for the hearty Sigmarines? Do not forget the doughty myners in the Sigmarite mynes struggling to produce enough Sigmarite to clad yet more Sigmarines.

Avian
16-07-2015, 20:57
Hoping for some humor at some point.

lbecks
16-07-2015, 21:02
It's very shiny. I wonder if they're eventually going to have a horus heresy-like event that kicks Sigmar out of the picture and grimes his creations.

Ayin
16-07-2015, 21:38
It's very shiny. I wonder if they're eventually going to have a horus heresy-like event that kicks Sigmar out of the picture and grimes his creations.

Well, first they'll want to detail and release all of their forces and establish the setting as it stands, so they've got an entire Great Crusade to get through before Heresy.

Vulgarsty
16-07-2015, 21:43
I think they've protected the IP of their world, but chiefly because it's just too meh to be worth nicking. I'm sure the next shareholder meeting will boast about they have now secured their ideas, but I bet they also have a lot of unstolen dog turds knocking around Lenton Lane aswell.....

de Selby
16-07-2015, 22:24
I'm puzzled that they completely destroyed the old world, then describe how a new world was made (apparently with the same races, deities and characters as the old world), fell apart, got overrun by chaos just like the old world, then at the last moment Sigmar created sigmarines to save it and... that's where we come in.

Why not have the sigmarines show up at the last moment in End Times Archaon? Just because they wanted the world to be bigger? It doesn't feel bigger. It feels like it's got two real factions in it at the moment, plus a bunch of legacy stuff that doesn't quite fit.

I remember lizardmen being a fluff problem in the old world, but 'Sigmar forges an alliance with the Slann mages' could have accomplished much the same thing as 'Sigmar forges an alliance with a giant space dragon', if they wanted lizardmen to be summonable.

I could understand it if they'd just wanted a completely clean break but they haven't got that. Maybe it's better for people wanting to continue playing 8th that the world definitely ended, rather than changing. I dunno.


On the issue of theme, I think they could have doubled down on a kind of gritty Game of Thrones vibe that they used to do quite well (Undead vs Bretonnians box set would have been cool), but they've definitely gone more high fantasy prog rock album cover instead.

Kahadras
16-07-2015, 22:29
I like the idea of the different 'realms' and it gives GW good oppertunities to really expand on the look and feel of realities shaped by the different winds of magic.

What I don't like is GW's inability to write interesting fluff at the moment...


"In the shining plane of Azyr, in the fair land of Sigmaron, among the soaring towers of Azyrheim, the shimmering Stormcast Eternals, wielding blessed hammers, forged from the radiant Sigmarite, battle the forces of darkness for Sigmar, the God King of Azyr!"

Yup. In fair Sigmaron the god king Sigmar forged his Sigmarines out of pure Sigmarite using his Hammer of Sigmar. Bleh. :eyebrows:

HereComesTomorrow
16-07-2015, 22:29
I don't understand why they couldn't have done all this with the Old World.
I can't think of anything they've done with AoS that required the Old World to be destroyed in order to do it.

Everything happening could have spun out of the End Times and kept the world, lore and characters intact.

Gharak
16-07-2015, 22:31
Wish they'd gone further to be honest and obliterated more of the old world.

Don't get me wrong I love the old world, I hark from the wfr and realms of chaos era, it had depth and great character.

I like the 4 forces idea but from what I see they're just going to strong arm old warhammer races into them. I like the bits about different realms and more realm based creatures and people's.

Remember the old world had 30 years of writing behind it, AoS has at most about a year's planning and writing, it'll take a little time for the lore and history to unfold, I'm hoping well see more great fluff that transfers well onto the tabletop (unlike 40k where the fluff just gets lost in the transition between character led stories and mass battles.)

Philhelm
16-07-2015, 22:33
(Undead vs Bretonnians box set would have been cool)

That would have been so righteous. I would have purchased two or three boxes minimum.

DonkeyMan
16-07-2015, 22:38
Too early to be able to say anything there yet, but if done well, having a progressing story might be nice for a change though.

I'll miss the Old World, but GW did a few things with the fluff there in the past that I really didn't like and ruined the Fantasy fluff slightly for me.
When End Times got announced, I was slightly upset, but at the same time I was thinking, about time to start fresh.

Ayin
16-07-2015, 22:40
I'm puzzled that they completely destroyed the old world, then describe how a new world was made (apparently with the same races, deities and characters as the old world), fell apart, got overrun by chaos just like the old world, then at the last moment Sigmar created sigmarines to save it and... that's where we come in.


#1 Design decision for this new game besides branding was introducing a Space Marine faction. They built something new that's a version of something old, and the difference is: Space Marine faction.

Shandor
16-07-2015, 23:23
It's very shiny. I wonder if they're eventually going to have a horus heresy-like event that kicks Sigmar out of the picture and grimes his creations.

Cant wait to see 6 or 12 great Heroes of the Sigmarines getting corruptet by Chaos and start a big Civil war. This Chaos Sigmarines are lead by a Guy named Anubis and start the Anubis Heresy :p

Charistoph
17-07-2015, 00:38
Cant wait to see 6 or 12 great Heroes of the Sigmarines getting corruptet by Chaos and start a big Civil war. This Chaos Sigmarines are lead by a Guy named Anubis and start the Anubis Heresy :p

Well, they IS Nagash...

AngryAngel
17-07-2015, 01:26
Who said anything about logic or realism? Within the context of the two games I would say yes though it makes more sense for a random army of dwarves to wage a war against a random army of skeletons in AoS than it did for a random army of xxx to fight a random army of xxx in the old world. If anything the silly fluff excuses for why this army is fighting this army in WFB often detracted rather than added to the setting. When WFB made sense it was 100x better fluff than this AoS crap, my point is that it often didn't.

Again, I did not say the old world lacked character or good stories, but there is no doubt AoS is simply a larger playground that is designed to allow the clashing of armies from those realms to make more sense in the context of the fluff. If you hate the idea of multiple magical realms and a decidedly less realistic fantasy setting that AoS represents then of course you are going to hate it. In its current state it lacks any endearing qualities to me personally, in fact I was really let down by the first novel. Literally all I am saying is that AoS is simply a larger setting.

It is bigger, I'll agree with that and respectfully disagree to AoS making more sense with its battles then the old world however.



I much prefer the Old World, but I frankly don't know all that much about the new setting other than what has been leaked. GW wants to sell me models for a game set in a super secretive game setting for some reason (I know, I know, GW isn't a games company).

We don't really know anything about the (normal) humans, which bothers me since I believe that the human faction will set the tone for the overall setting (for instance, if the Empire was modeled after Romans instead of the HRE, it would influence the context of the other races). I'm also bothered that we don't see any villages; all the terrain consists of hellish Chaos fortresses, realm gates, and floating doo-dads. Are there any farmers in the new setting?

In fairness, I do believe that the different realms could be interesting, especially if we see how the different races are influenced by each realm, such as fire humans, life humans, death humans, etc. That's if GW doesn't drop the ball.

If they are roman, that would be cool. Though I imagine they will jump the shark utterly.



If they're trying to create a copyriteable setting, then they failed miserably, because this setting is a straight up ripoff of Norse mythology and the Nine Realms. Even Sigmar has become a clone of Thor with all the lightning elements and the Stormcast Eternals being basically Einherjar.

GW not original ? No way. :cries:



Are there any farmers? Why, you mean steamhead faermers? Who toil the field for Siganch and raise Sigovine for the hearty Sigmarines? Do not forget the doughty myners in the Sigmarite mynes struggling to produce enough Sigmarite to clad yet more Sigmarines.


I like the idea of the different 'realms' and it gives GW good oppertunities to really expand on the look and feel of realities shaped by the different winds of magic.

What I don't like is GW's inability to write interesting fluff at the moment...



Yup. In fair Sigmaron the god king Sigmar forged his Sigmarines out of pure Sigmarite using his Hammer of Sigmar. Bleh. :eyebrows:

Both very funny and I think they just don't like writing anymore, I gave up on creative cool names when I hot Murderfang..:(

GrandmasterWang
17-07-2015, 05:43
The fluff for AOS has potential.

I shall see how it develops.

With 9 whole worlds to explore and a blank slate I like that they can have an ongoing story which they couldn't really do in the Old World.

That said..... from the unit descriptions in the White Dwarf...... GW really needs to lift their game if this new AOS background is to capture me in the same way the Old World did which is still my favorite fantasy setting of all time!

Biggest plus to the AOS background is that it is set a full 1000 years after the Old World so imo it's a completely different setting just with ties to the "Land before time"

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk

Urgat
17-07-2015, 05:50
I'm 50/50. Stuff I don't like (the name changing, all those people ascending to godhood, the Old World completely gone instead of ruined), some have potential (the thing with Slaanesh, if it doesn't just stay like that and is followed on with developments, could be great).


Cant wait to see 6 or 12 great Heroes of the Sigmarines getting corruptet by Chaos and start a big Civil war. This Chaos Sigmarines are lead by a Guy named Anubis and start the Anubis Heresy :p

Chaos warriors came first, it'd be kindda pointless to have chaos warriors and chaos sigmarines at the same time no?

Wesser
17-07-2015, 06:16
The problem with the fluff is that it is pretty thin. And what's more it is set in a setting that you can't really relate to either.

Warhammer was medieval Europe with attachments. You could make themed armies within the setting because medieval Europe was something that was principally understood.


I'll bet GW thought the fluff too restrictive and the portals everywhere and high fantasy setting would allow people to make their own fluff. The problem is if anyone else will understand it? Will you be able to discuss a concept that only you will understand with your pals? Will you be able to make an opponent how a conversion fits into the theme of your army and isn't just a proxy?

What good is a themed army if you have to invent every part of it yourself and have to explain each and every part if you want people to understand it? And I find it tragic that GW probably means for the Sigmarines to be cool, but in reality they are just boring.. so very very boring

Darnok
17-07-2015, 07:37
What I've read so far was cringeworthy at best and downright horrible at worst. Some "bad fanciction" out there is better than the new "background" around AoS.

And to be honest: I'm close to giving up on it alltogether. The "you have to wait and see what else there is" does not seem to be for me: every new bit I see only reinforces my hatred for the "new thing". How many times am I supposed to read something I don't like until it is okay to just stay away?

TheFang
17-07-2015, 07:47
And to be honest: I'm close to giving up on it alltogether. The "you have to wait and see what else there is" does not seem to be for me: every new bit I see only reinforces my hatred for the "new thing". How many times am I supposed to read something I don't like until it is okay to just stay away?
It's a horrible pastiche of 40k with Marvel's cinematic Thor and He-Man. Every new bit just makes the bile rise further.

Wait for the full rules, for the army selection system, the scenarios, the new background. Each new bit that appears is just worse and worse.

MiyamatoMusashi
17-07-2015, 08:00
How many times am I supposed to read something I don't like until it is okay to just stay away?

Yeah. All that "this has potential" or "wait and see how it develops" really just sounds like a translation of "this is really bad, and I'm desperately hoping it might get better". But just like how everyone said "wait and see" for more rules and a points system... I don't think better fluff is coming, either.

Gates of Azyr, the first novella for the new setting, which one might have thought they'd go all out on, make sure to include all the best bits - reads like a pisstake. "Stormcast Eternals from Sigmaron worshipping Sigmar wearing armour of Sigmarite engraved with the sigil of Sigmarabulus!" Yeah, those are all real names. Just think about that. I'm surprised they're not italicised with a TM like the The HobbitTM names always are. More to the point, it's made explicitly clear in the book: any memories the Sigmarines have of their previous lives (when they might have had personalities) are considered to be worthless or even harmful, and are rejected in favour of an existence of war. They're fighting against Khorne worshippers, who chant "Blood for the Blood God" all the time and live for an existence of war. Both the Sigmarines, and the Daemons that are their greatest foes, are eternal and get resurrected if they die. So what we have is... a setting where everyone lives only to fight, but it doesn't matter if they lose a fight, as they'll get brought to life again, so they can fight some more.

Just think about that, too.

There is no subtlety. There is no drama. There really doesn't seem to be an awful lot of room for subtlety and drama to be introduced later, and even if there were, GW have shown no sign whatsoever that they intend to do so (and plenty that they don't).

It is, by intention and design, obvious. What you see is what you get. Everything is turned up to 11, unless it's not directly related to killing things in which case it's dialled right back down to zero. I'm not quite sure who would find that appealing - though I daresay someone would - but I never will, and it sounds like even most of those who say it appeals to them, don't really find it appealing and are really talking about some possible future that might arise from this setting (and I'm not sure why they still believe it might happen).

For the fluff, just as with the rules: I have waited, and I have seen, and I'm not going to wait and see any more. It's just bad. Objectively bad.

Spiney Norman
17-07-2015, 08:10
What I've read so far was cringeworthy at best and downright horrible at worst. Some "bad fanciction" out there is better than the new "background" around AoS.

And to be honest: I'm close to giving up on it alltogether. The "you have to wait and see what else there is" does not seem to be for me: every new bit I see only reinforces my hatred for the "new thing". How many times am I supposed to read something I don't like until it is okay to just stay away?

That's absolutely fair enough, the amount of space you give to AoS to impress you is entirely your affair, whether or not you walk away now or in a month's time is no skin off my nose really, and if your initial reaction is that negative it might be better to just let it go, do something else and then have another look in a year or two when the dust has settled (if you are so inclined after that length of time). Personally I think the fluff is interesting (and better than I expected it to be based on other recent fluff projects) so I'm content to hold fire and see where it goes for the time being. It's going to take me a few months to paint through my chaos army from the AoS box at my usual painting speed, and much can happen in that time.

Ultraloth
17-07-2015, 08:21
Yeah. All that "this has potential" or "wait and see how it develops" really just sounds like a translation of "this is really bad, and I'm desperately hoping it might get better".
For the fluff, just as with the rules: I have waited, and I have seen, and I'm not going to wait and see any more. It's just bad. Objectively bad.

Do you realize how condescending it is for you to say: "All you people who say that you kinda like the new fluff are actually saying that it's very bad!" Do you think people are uncapable of formulating their own feelings without your help? It comes off as really desperate if you find it necessary to think that everyone who disagrees with your personal feelings must actually be thinking something else than what they're saying.

Apart from that, there is no onjective way of measuring if fiction is good or not. The only thing you can measure is how entertaining people find it on average, and that is subjective to the core. So instead of saying: "this fiction is objectively bad", what you really meant to say (see what I did there?) is: "I really don't like it."

Cutter
17-07-2015, 08:24
Cant wait to see 6 or 12 great Heroes of the Sigmarines getting corruptet by Chaos and start a big Civil war. This Chaos Sigmarines are lead by a Guy named Anubis and start the Anubis Heresy :p

Anubis Apostasy Shirley?

Gotta keep that alliteration...

Darnok
17-07-2015, 08:26
Apart from that, there is no onjective way of measuring if fiction is good or not.

Literary Studies would like to have a word with you.

samael
17-07-2015, 08:33
I'm feeling generous today.

217293

MiyamatoMusashi
17-07-2015, 09:00
Do you realize how condescending it is for you to say: "All you people who say that you kinda like the new fluff are actually saying that it's very bad!" Do you think people are uncapable of formulating their own feelings without your help?

No, I'm simply reading what they say. Exhibit A: the post right before yours. "Interesting", "better than I expected it to be" - strong praise indeed. :shifty: But yet again, much talk about how it might be better in future. Vanishingly few of the people saying they like it, actually mention anything about what they like about it now, only what they hope it will become.

That's neither condescending nor projecting my own feelings onto anyone. That's just... taking people at their word. I don't really see the problem?


Apart from that, there is no onjective way of measuring if fiction is good or not. The only thing you can measure is how entertaining people find it on average, and that is subjective to the core. So instead of saying: "this fiction is objectively bad", what you really meant to say (see what I did there?) is: "I really don't like it."

Oh, it's true that subjectively I don't really like it - but there's more to it than that. Subjectively I don't really like Star Trek, but objectively it's a fictional setting with certain strengths and weaknesses... I don't claim it to be objectively bad. It's just not for me. Subjectively I don't like the Warmahordes setting, but I make no claims about how it might be evaluated objectively. It's just not for me.

Read Eye of Argon (http://www-users.cs.york.ac.uk/susan/sf/eyeargon/eyeargon.htm) and tell me there's no way to objectively assess the worth of a piece of literature. Now read the fluff for the new world with all it's Sigmar, Sigmarite, Sigmaron, Sigmarabulum, and all its stereotypes and caricatures and clichés and tropes, and show me the artistic merit hidden within - or indeed anything original, which is a separate but related concern. You'll struggle to find any. It is objectively bad.

EagleWarrior
17-07-2015, 10:00
My thoughts, as a setting in it's own right: Not terrible. Not really to my tastes, the realms thing seems to be more about justifying different races fighting each other than adding anything interesting to the setting, I personally prefer muddy low fantasy settings to high magic settings and the 'Everyone's a god/hero!' thing is quite childish. But it has a few interesting things, may well develop and isn't terrible.

As Warhammer: Very disappointing. The old world, while it had a few problems, was really good and had some very nice elements like the Tomb Kings not wanting to be undead and considering the Vampire Counts as their main enemy and I wanted to see what they'd do with Cathy and Nippon. This isn't an advancement of the setting or even a reboot really, it's a a completely new setting. And I don't think it was necessary to throw the old one away to do that. :(

Ultraloth
17-07-2015, 10:12
Literary Studies would like to have a word with you.

Being well versed in that field myself I can safely say that it is not a science. You can determine whether or not a piece of fiction adheres to certain technical principles, but how much you value or appreciate that same piece of fiction is a matter of personal preference and cultural prejudice. (Case in point: Fairy Tales were long considered to be extremely poor taste untill the 19th century when they were suddenly elevated to classic status by romantics and nationalists.)

Cèsar de Quart
17-07-2015, 10:50
Being well versed in that field myself I can safely say that it is not a science. You can determine whether or not a piece of fiction adheres to certain technical principles, but how much you value or appreciate that same piece of fiction is a matter of personal preference and cultural prejudice. (Case in point: Fairy Tales were long considered to be extremely poor taste untill the 19th century when they were suddenly elevated to classic status by romantics and nationalists.)

And now Bram Stoker's Dracula is considered an important, innovative book, but a bad one by our standards.

***

The fluff, so far, seems dull and generic. I've seen a couple of ideas that could be good, but are not developed. And instead of indulging on the parts the people would like to see (maps of the planes, filling their new-born setting with mystery and appeal and character, fleshing out protagonists or personality clashes...), they go on and on about how sigmarawesome the Sigmarines are. They have to, of course, if they want to sell them, but it feels shamelessly fabricated and canned, as far as fantasy settings go.

Here we don't have the black humour, reference-filled Old World; we don't have the commentary on Medieval mentality and fairytales that is The Witcher and its setting. We don't have the deep, complex world of the Lord of the Rings, or the carefully constructed, profundly religious galaxy from Dune... All we have is generic good vs evil (without even the moral dark areas present in Oldhammer or in 40k, it seems) plane-dimensional mumbo-jumbo which, incidentally, makes all the Human cultures go back to barbarian state, so that Warhammer human armies loose all of what made them unique and puts them back among other generic wargames, unimpressive, uninspiring and boring.

Dragonlance and Forgotten Kingdoms, here comes Warhammer! He's lost all its breath and its charisma and is now as dull as the rest of you. Rejoice!

***

The problem, really, is giving full creative capacity with no ties to a certain tradition or set of ideas to a group of people that have demonstrated, time and time again, that is not very creative and that half their creative decisions are made by execs in suits in a commitee room filled with "business wisdom" and "customer savvy people". They're not going to come up with anything very exciting. They're just going to come up with generic fluff cut down to the lowest common denominator.


I thought this New World would hold more promise, more opportunity for new ideas and interesting concepts. I really wanted it to be appealing, at least. I really did.

Splen
17-07-2015, 10:53
I'm really enjoying it so far. It's early days as others have said but it seems like a pretty strong start.

EagleWarrior
17-07-2015, 11:40
I'm not sure a progressing story is really appropriate to a wargames setting as it makes it harder for people to make their own stories themed armies. It's good for a film or book series but for a wargames setting we want space for players to be creative, and not have story progression make all their themes invalid. It's why lord of the rings makes a great book and a great film but a boring tabletop game as the players can only rehash someone else's stories.

This isn't to say things should stay the same and the world should be unchanging. Rather set the game at a particular point in the history of the world and let players tell their own stories from there.

Ultraloth
17-07-2015, 11:50
I'm not sure a progressing story is really appropriate to a wargames setting as it makes it harder for people to make their own stories themed armies. It's good for a film or book series but for a wargames setting we want space for players to be creative, and not have story progression make all their themes invalid. It's why lord of the rings makes a great book and a great film but a boring tabletop game as the players can only rehash someone else's stories.

This isn't to say things should stay the same and the world should be unchanging. Rather set the game at a particular point in the history of the world and let players tell their own stories from there.

Being frustrated with the state of the world being in a fixed position was a common complaint before the End Times books. Whether this was a majority oppinion or not is hard to tell, but at least it came up often enough.

Warmachine and Hordes features a progressive storyline background and many people (including myself) greatly enjoy this aspect. There are off course also many who dislike the setting. (Allthough often without having really delved into it.)

GrandmasterWang
17-07-2015, 12:00
When I say it has potential. .. I mean exactly that. I don't mean "I think it's terrible"

The new scenery (upcoming, posted on BOLS) is fantastic, I absolutely think that I might really get into the background of some of the planets that make up the setting of AOS when they get fleshed out if they can capture the 'Fantasy' of some of the upcoming terrain pieces.

At this stage I know very little about the 9 realms and the various lands/continents/denizens/monsters they contain. That is what I mean when I say the background has potential.

Basically the 'fluff' we have now is like Chapter 1 of of a book, I shall see in the future whether I like it or not but will not pass judgement on the whole Nine Realms based off of a snippet if you get what I am saying.

Now I have not read the tie in Novella and it will be some time before I read that 250+page sourcebook.

I respect MiyamatoMusashi's opinion and his review of the final Malus book probably saved me some heartache hahaha but when I say the background has potential I mean exactly that.

If AOS lasts 2 years for all I know by then it will have developed an enthralling background......... or it could be complete cak....... we shall see

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Twido
17-07-2015, 12:08
Honestly, I think it is absolutely terrible. I could just about live with the poor rules, but the fluff just kills the whole thing for me.

I would compare it to a great work of art that has been scrawled by a child with a crayon. Now I know that it is a stretch to call all of the old fluff a great work of art, but it certainly has its moments and by far was the largest, and richest fantasy world ever created.

As people have said, it is early days and it is possible to improve what they have. Despite common wisdom you can actually polish a **** (the trick is to either desiccate it and mount it in resin or freeze it in liquid nitrogen). However I doubt that GW has the capacity to write anything good and they are now starting from a handicapped position.

Kakapo42
17-07-2015, 12:09
So what do you think of the new background? Good change? Bad change? Merits to both? Terrible and should die? Let me know what you think. :D

I think it's terrible and should be as utterly obliterated as it says the Warhammer World was (maybe for some...), then erased entirely from space-time, before whoever was responsible for writing it being dragged into 40k and wired into a Penitent Engine. I'm kind of dramatic like that.

Much like the accompanying models, the new background takes everything I didn't like about the last stages of 8th edition and the ET series and magnifies it. It feels... plastic to me. Sterile. I don't feel like there's any humanity to it, no life or soul. The Old setting had people in it. People grounded in reality with relate-able stories that you could care about. It was a world with heritage, and I don't mean 30 years of background writing. The Warhammer World was alive, it felt like it had a spark to it not entirely unlike one found near the heart of the Discworld or Middle Earth.

The new background feels cheap to me in comparison. It feels like something I would come across in one of those browser games with scantily-clad women in their adverts. Incidentally, AoS increasingly feels like an IOS browser game to me, but that is perhaps a discussion for another time. I think that's the big difference for me, the Warhammer World feels like a setting rooted in fantasy literature and classic RPG gamebooks. The AoS background, on the other hand, feels rooted in MMOs and browser games to me.

But that's not my biggest problem with the AoS background. No, my biggest concern lies with GW's apparent decision to continue down the path of having a metaplot, seen in this quote from the Gameinformer article GW put a link to when AoS was launched:


Perhaps more importantly, Age of Sigmar represents Games Workshop’s goal to tell a more robust ongoing story. Sigmar’s initial assault sends his army of Stormcast Eternals down to retake the Realm of Fire from the Khorne Bloodbound army. From this starting conflict, Games Workshop hopes to unfold an evolving tale with greater narrative direction and depth than they’ve previously included. In fact, I’m told that the first full year of storylines is already clearly planned out.

Now I may be the only one in the entire universe who feels this way, but I hate having a metaplot - indeed, the presence of a metaplot in the setting is pretty much the only thing stopping me from getting into Battletech (aside from a lack of available funds), which is a tabletop wargame I would otherwise dive into wholeheartedly, and it's one of the major reasons I disliked the ET series so much. It may be different for others, but a metaplot just puts a strait-jacket on my creativity. If I want to follow a single central storyline, I will read a book, or watch a TV series, or see a movie. When it comes to tabletop settings, I want an open-ended setting that leaves me free to explore it and develop it in any way I desire. I don't want to have the outcome of my background dictated to me from on-high, I want to be free to write my own destiny for my characters and armies. I want to be in control of the stories I tell, and a strong metaplot gets in the way of that.

Oh well. I switched off from official canon after the ET series started, so anything after that doesn't really bother me. After all, my armies stopped the events of the ET series from ever happening, so the Warhammer World is still just fine for me (if a little different because of the consequences of stopping a cataclysmic apocalypse from ever coming to pass).

EagleWarrior
17-07-2015, 12:47
Now I may be the only one in the entire universe who feels this way, but I hate having a metaplot - indeed, the presence of a metaplot in the setting is pretty much the only thing stopping me from getting into Battletech (aside from a lack of available funds), which is a tabletop wargame I would otherwise dive into wholeheartedly, and it's one of the major reasons I disliked the ET series so much. It may be different for others, but a metaplot just puts a strait-jacket on my creativity. If I want to follow a single central storyline, I will read a book, or watch a TV series, or see a movie. When it comes to tabletop settings, I want an open-ended setting that leaves me free to explore it and develop it in any way I desire. I don't want to have the outcome of my background dictated to me from on-high, I want to be free to write my own destiny for my characters and armies. I want to be in control of the stories I tell, and a strong metaplot gets in the way of that.

Yeah, that's pretty much my feeling about evolving story lines in tabletop settings. Storm of Chaos drove a freight train through the lovingly crafted theme I had for two of my armies and End Times finished off the rest (even before they ended the world). Now I have to explain where my time-line diverged from the standard every time I get my conversions out.

Shandor
17-07-2015, 13:14
I think envloving the story every view years is a good thing. The status quo thing getting boring after years. But it has to be done with some care. It should have enough open space for players. It should not delete races or Worlds..
I would not mind such things as "The Darkelves finaly conquered Ulthuan and the loyal Highelves had to flee to Lustria outposts and preparing to take back what they lost" just an examble. It doesnt change your armys or playstyle.. its just a twist in the story.

ScruffMan
17-07-2015, 13:27
For me the setting and fluff is fairly good (if not particularly original) and it does have room for improvement, this is not wild hope on my part but what the starter book suggests. The writing is poor, it has to be said. GW have never had literary geniuses working for them and that's fine it would be a massive waste of money to do so but it needs to be better. Look at the 3rd edition rulebook, Priestley et als creation. It was absolutely joyous in the fluff that they had created (over actual real campaigns in the design studio) and is a world that they obviously loved and nurtured. This seems like "just a job" for some writers who have phoned it in and are probably waiting for their real novel to get a publisher.

EagleWarrior
17-07-2015, 13:34
I think envloving the story every view years is a good thing. The status quo thing getting boring after years. But it has to be done with some care. It should have enough open space for players. It should not delete races or Worlds..
I would not mind such things as "The Darkelves finaly conquered Ulthuan and the loyal Highelves had to flee to Lustria outposts and preparing to take back what they lost" just an examble. It doesnt change your armys or playstyle.. its just a twist in the story.

That's fair. My wife's main Fantasy army is Tomb Kings and is heavily themed around their hatred for Nagash and the vampires for betraying their civilisation, and wanting to take revenge on Vampire Counts. End Times comes along and declares that Nagash conquered the Tomb Kings and leads a combined army of the dead. This was basically saying that your entire faction just lost in the most profound way possible. You can still use the models, but now they fight for the side that was your main enemy.

GrandmasterWang
17-07-2015, 14:01
That's fair. My wife's main Fantasy army is Tomb Kings and is heavily themed around their hatred for Nagash and the vampires for betraying their civilisation, and wanting to take revenge on Vampire Counts. End Times comes along and declares that Nagash conquered the Tomb Kings and leads a combined army of the dead. This was basically saying that your entire faction just lost in the most profound way possible. You can still use the models, but now they fight for the side that was your main enemy.

Pah to that.

My Tomb Kings are still noble and loyal to Settra! I'm not quite sure which imposter Nagash obliterated in his dream like wet dream ;) but it sure as hell wasn't my Settra!

Settra the Imperishable and his mighty vassal Khalazid the Eternal still stand strong.

I see the End Times as a hypothetical end for the Warhammer world (kind of like Kakapo42) which may or may not happen depending on how my battles play out :)

I just lump it in the hypothetical pile along with the Storm of Chaos, Nemesis Crown, Albion etc.

That's what's so great about Warhammer as a setting. Imo Warhammer the 'setting' is locked in place with Karl Franz ruling the Empire and Archaon just about to launch an invasion where he may or may not end up getting headbutted by Grimgor.

That's the world in which all my characters and armies reside. Sure Nagash is back now but I'm pretty sure Khalazid the Eternal has his number ;)

I saw the End Times as a source of inspiration for MY Warhammer world. For example Vlad being resurrected I am happy to incorporate (I have the model and still play him by his modified 7th rules in Chillhammer). With a Glottkin model on the way we shall see how Nurgle's attempted invasions of various places plays out. Who knows maybe he might even ally with my Chaos Dwarfs like Tamurkhan did.

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Groza
17-07-2015, 14:02
Apart from that, there is no onjective way of measuring if fiction is good or not
*sighs heavily*

*paces up and down the room a few times*

*sighs heavily again*

GrandmasterWang
17-07-2015, 14:06
*sighs heavily*

*paces up and down the room a few times*

*sighs heavily again*

I do believe he is correct. I do not think there is an onjective way of measuring fiction.......... or anything else actually

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EagleWarrior
17-07-2015, 14:20
That's what's so great about Warhammer as a setting. Imo Warhammer the 'setting' is locked in place with Karl Franz ruling the Empire and Archaon just about to launch an invasion where he may or may not end up getting headbutted by Grimgor.

That's the world in which all my characters and armies reside. Sure Nagash is back now but I'm pretty sure Khalazid the Eternal has his number ;)

I saw the End Times as a source of inspiration for MY Warhammer world.

Yep, totally. :)

Ultraloth
17-07-2015, 14:23
*sighs heavily*

*paces up and down the room a few times*

*sighs heavily again*

Not sure what you're trying to say. (Apart from you being unable to articulate your thoughts).

EagleWarrior
17-07-2015, 14:43
Shall we drop the objectivity argument? It's getting kinda silly.

Longstrider
17-07-2015, 15:19
I was actually pretty interested after reading ET: Nagash, and the ET books had a certain amount of "ooh, what's next!" to them. But they rapidly seemed to ditch narrative conclusions to things along the way. Still, I enjoyed the ride well enough, and I was pretty keen to see what AoS was going to do.

So far, I'm not that impressed. One of the things that bothers me about it is that it's timeline is basically that, after the Warhammer World ended, Sigmar turned up in these nine realms, and a good time was had and all. Then Chaos was on a winning streak again, and right before the final very end, Sigmar sealed off the gates to Azyr and then we wait around some unspecified amount of time, and he's striking back. Why, I wonder, wasn't that the story of the End Times? All that had to be done was for Karl Franz not to have been resurrected by Sigmar, and right near the end of ET: Archaon, Sigmarines burst out from the vortex/gates, built from the souls of the many thousands killed in the preceding few millenia since Sigmar ascended. You could even have the plot of Sigmar's alliance falling apart after that, too.

Instead we get this somewhat-incoherent Nine Realms thing. What are the realms? Are they dimensions? Are they planets? The core of the old world is a star, or is just a feature in the sky? Is Dracotheon a constellation of other stars, or an actual thing? So far, it doesn't make much sense - part of what makes mythology great is that myths and just-so stories seek to give us an explanation for phenomena that we've already perceived. The 'mythic' element to the AoS fluff so far doesn't land because we don't have any perceive phenomena for them for to explain.

Also, I've read both the novella and the short story. I'm pretty miffed about them because they wasted the talents of Chris Wraight (Battle of the Fang, Scars) and Josh Reynolds (Knight of the Blazing Sun, but more importantly his excellent Hammer & Bolter short fiction about Erkhart Dubnitz, Knight of Mannan) in writing stories that essentially amount to "red or gold dude went there and hit that gold or red guy, and then hit some more guys. Occasionally this or that guy came close to having feelings, but then didn't."

So... I went from being excited, to engaged, to tepid, and now I think I'm discinlined from picking up anything more to do with AoS and checking in in a year to see if it's better. I might see about borrowing the big book from someone this week, but I don't know anyone who's interested in buying it, and I'm not spending 40 pounds on it given that I didn't care for the previous stuff. The art's been pretty nice though, if a bit same-y.

MiyamatoMusashi
17-07-2015, 15:36
I do kinda regret bringing it up TBH.

Jind_Singh
17-07-2015, 15:55
I haven't had a chance to read the stories out of the starter set yet, just the short novel.

I was hoping for an End Times thickness of Nagash for stories - they needed to provide us with around 300 pages of really well written stories to give us a wealth of depth and direction.

I'm hoping the book I'm getting tomorrow gets me to that place

Groza
17-07-2015, 16:18
or anything else actually

:wtf:

Not sure what you're trying to say. (Apart from you being unable to articulate your thoughts).
Well you see, I don't want to actually articulate my thoughts, not least because I've given up on trying to educate people on the virtues of objectivism, but also because this wouldn't be the time or place anyway.
Anyway, whether anyone here agrees with me or not when it comes to objectivism and subjectivism (and actually no one does), I'm sure most people understand that there is in fact such a thing as horribly written fiction, and I suspect that's what AoS is (I haven't actually read more than the silly blurbs bellow the models from the earlier leaks, and I don't really intend to waste any more of my time on this drivel).

Philhelm
17-07-2015, 16:43
Shall we drop the objectivity argument? It's getting kinda silly.

That's subjective. :evilgrin:

GrandmasterWang
17-07-2015, 17:06
:wtf:


I found your post to be severely lacking in onjectivity :)

Anyway, being objective is one the key principles of my occupation. Lets get back to the fantasy side of things.

This new great drake/celestial dragon friend of Sigmars eh... Dracothion.

Per White Dwarf 76 Dracothion caught the remnants of the old Warhammer world (he called the remnants "Mallus") in his jaws so he must be a big ****!

Random thought: Sigmars new palace city is called "Sigmaron" and the "magical iron" mined from Mallus is called "sigmarite". In addition he controls something called the "Sigmarabulum" which has the forges of the Six Smiths (whoever they are?)

So my question for you fellow Warseerites is....

When did Sigmar become such a narcissist?

Im surprised he hasn't renamed his hammer SigMaraz.

Thoughts?

ScruffMan
17-07-2015, 17:08
I found your post to be severely lacking in onjectivity :)

Anyway, being objective is one the key principles of my occupation. Lets get back to the fantasy side of things.

This new great drake/celestial dragon friend of Sigmars eh... Dracothion.

Per White Dwarf 76 Dracothion caught the remnants of the old Warhammer world (he called the remnants "Mallus") in his jaws so he must be a big ****!

Random thought: Sigmars new palace city is called "Sigmaron" and the "magical iron" mined from Mallus is called "sigmarite". In addition he controls something called the "Sigmarabulum" which has the forges of the Six Smiths (whoever they are?)

So my question for you fellow Warseerites is....

When did Sigmar become such a narcissist?

Im surprised he hasn't renamed his hammer SigMaraz.

Thoughts?


You're right, he has developed a real God complex. :D

Groza
17-07-2015, 17:08
Random thought: Sigmars new palace city is called "Sigmaron" and the "magical iron" mined from Mallus is called "sigmarite". In addition he controls something called the "Sigmarabulum" which has the forges of the Six Smiths (whoever they are?)

Wait, those are all actually legit?
I thought people were repeating them as a way to poke fun at GW's lack of creativity with naming things lately.
Sigmarabulum is a real thing??

GrandmasterWang
17-07-2015, 17:13
You're right, he has developed a real God complex. :D

Ho ho ho :)


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GrandmasterWang
17-07-2015, 17:21
Wait, those are all actually legit?
I thought people were repeating them as a way to poke fun at GW's lack of creativity with naming things lately.
Sigmarabulum is a real thing??

Mate I took those names straight from White Dwarf 76! I had to check the spelling lol. Sigmarabulum is indeed apparently a thing. Not quite sure what from the sentence though. Snippet below:

"In the Sigmarabulum, the forges of the Six Smiths ring loud"

I honestly think there are more Sigmar based names I'm missing.

Maybe we could get a definite list here.

That's why I said I thought the setting had potential but GW needed to lift their game lol.

In more positive news the Warhammer app had a sample from some AOS ebook which mentioned a Khorne Lord bartering with the "Fire Lords" who forged the chaos forces weapons and armor....... so it sounds like my beloved Big Hat Chaos Dwarfs are still kicking it in the AOS.

Also.. Fire Lords I kinda like as a name for them.... they are masters of fire after all.

Fire Lords vs Steamheads....... ill take the former thanks :) Oh it could have been so much worse!

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EagleWarrior
17-07-2015, 17:40
Sigmarines is mocking GW though (at least I think so!).

Avian
17-07-2015, 18:19
Don't forget the artificial star Sigmadil, made by Sigmar from purest Sigmarite and shining on the city of Sigmaron.

Sothron
17-07-2015, 18:22
I honestly do not understand how anyone can like the fluff for AoS. These places don't even have names. No one walks around in our world and says "I live in the Prime Material Plane!" which is what I guess people walking around in Realm of Azyr say "I live in the Realm of Azyr!". Are these places individual planets? Just different places on on the same planet? Entire dimensions completely separate from each other?

This also makes me wonder how does the Warp work in this place. In the real Warhammer, you die and your soul goes to whatever deity you worshipped's afterlife was. Now how does this work with Sigmar and Chaos just blindly resurrecting random people so no one really dies? It makes no sense whatsoever.

And the names for things. Wow. I already made fun of it but it deserves all the mockery and scorn we can heap upon it. Sig this and Sig that is the name for everything. Not to mention the IP copyright crap to rename beloved races just so Chapterhouse can't make a model or something. Seriously?

MiyamatoMusashi
17-07-2015, 18:41
Wait, those are all actually legit?
I thought people were repeating them as a way to poke fun at GW's lack of creativity with naming things lately.
Sigmarabulum is a real thing??

All real.

Someone's already referenced Sigmarabulum, and according to the White Dwarf (74 I think) with the Sigmarines (*ahem*) reveal, on page 15, it mentions that "The Liberator-Prime's warhammer bears the symbol of Sigmarubulus". So that's two different, but both ludicrous, names separated by just one letter.

Sigmar. Sigmaron. Sigmarabulus. Sigmarabulum. Sigmarite. Sigmadil. These are all genuine names given to things in GW's fluff. (Sigmarines isn't, that seems to be the only fake one, but people can hardly be blamed for using it, given how fitting it is, and all those other names).

Yes, it really is that bad.

I mean, I know Alexander the Great built several cities he named Alexandria; but he had the good sense to stop there. GW are pretty much satirising themselves at this point.

Griefbringer
17-07-2015, 19:08
Don't forget the artificial star Sigmadil, made by Sigmar from purest Sigmarite and shining on the city of Sigmaron.

Is the history of this star recited in an epic poem called Sigmadillion?

As for Sothrons comment about the afterlife in the good old Warhammer setting, at least the humans of the Old World believed that their soul would go to Morr upon their death. Not so sure about the beliefs of the other races. As for eternal cycle of reincarnation, that appears in some religions in our own world.

Sothron
17-07-2015, 19:30
Is the history of this star recited in an epic poem called Sigmadillion?

As for Sothrons comment about the afterlife in the good old Warhammer setting, at least the humans of the Old World believed that their soul would go to Morr upon their death. Not so sure about the beliefs of the other races. As for eternal cycle of reincarnation, that appears in some religions in our own world.

Basically the warp works so that if enough people believe in "X" then yes, "X" does exist in the Warp. So Sigmar, Ulric, Morr etc all go to their respective eternal rewards if they really believed in it. Races like Dwarfs believed they went to their Ancestor's Halls for Dwarf heaven. Elves had their own various resting places as well. Chaos folks get to go to their respective gods hell and honestly not sure about Ogres or Lizardmen. I know who they each worshiped but not sure as to what their afterlife belief was.

Philhelm
17-07-2015, 19:43
Someone's already referenced Sigmarabulum, and according to the White Dwarf (74 I think) with the Sigmarines (*ahem*) reveal, on page 15, it mentions that "The Liberator-Prime's warhammer bears the symbol of Sigmarubulus". So that's two different, but both ludicrous, names separated by just one letter.

Sigmar. Sigmaron. Sigmarabulus. Sigmarabulum. Sigmarite. Sigmadil. These are all genuine names given to things in GW's fluff. (Sigmarines isn't, that seems to be the only fake one, but people can hardly be blamed for using it, given how fitting it is, and all those other names).

It's Lil Jon, not Ludacris:

3, 6, 9 damn you're fine(cast) move it so you can Sigmadil it to me one mo time
Get low, get low [6x]
To the window (to the window), to the Ophidian Gate (to the Ophidian Gate)
To the Sigmarite drop down my Sigmarabulum (my Sigmarabulum)
To all these Sigmaron crawl (crawl)
To all Sig Sig mothersigmar (mothersigmar!) all Sig Sig Sigmar damn (Sigmar damn)
To all Sig Sig mothersigmar (mothersigmar!) all Sig Sig Sigmar damn (Sigmar damn)

Darnok
17-07-2015, 19:45
Sigmar. Sigmaron. Sigmarabulus. Sigmarabulum. Sigmarite. Sigmadil. These are all genuine names given to things in GW's fluff.

It's "Bloodstrike missiles" dialed up to 12. Compared to the AoS "background", some writings of Ward read like high literature.

:cries:

Deadhorse
17-07-2015, 20:06
Land Mahreens & Thor
Chaos without the perverts
Dwarfs on fire
Bunch o'portals
Stupid names

To me it basically feels like someone hired porn script writers to do the next tome of the lord of the rings, and also had them consult all their work with lawyers to make sure every notable thing can be protected as an "original" concept.

I'm treating it like bad fan fiction and pretending this never happened.

TheFang
17-07-2015, 20:38
I would compare it to a great work of art that has been scrawled by a child with a crayon. Now I know that it is a stretch to call all of the old fluff a great work of art, but it certainly has its moments and by far was the largest, and richest fantasy world ever created.

Remember the old lady who cleaned and restored the picture of Christ (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-19349921).
That just made me think of this:

Ayin
17-07-2015, 21:16
This also makes me wonder how does the Warp work in this place. In the real Warhammer, you die and your soul goes to whatever deity you worshipped's afterlife was. Now how does this work with Sigmar and Chaos just blindly resurrecting random people so no one really dies? It makes no sense whatsoever.

In the grim-shinyness of the (Warhammer World's) far future, there is only war (as in, that's the only occupation or activity), so it makes sense that everyone who dies just comes back as another warrior constantly.

Don't worry, eventually Chaos will be contained and the realms will be re-forged into one world, and Sigmar will spread his essence around the new humans into shamans and wise men to guide them. Then eventually they will stop being re-born as Chaos slowly awakens and he will have to come together as one being again, revealing himself as the Emperor, hide until the Apocalypse, create the Thunder Warriors in the image of the Sigmarites, then Space Marines, Heresy, ect, and finally the whole timeline will make sense (with the Eldar's fall being revealed to have not 'created' Slaanesh but to have Awakened the true 4th Chaos God as it was trapped in slumber post WH:ET and into AoS).



And the names for things. Wow. I already made fun of it but it deserves all the mockery and scorn we can heap upon it. Sig this and Sig that is the name for everything. Not to mention the IP copyright crap to rename beloved races just so Chapterhouse can't make a model or something. Seriously?

Dude, By the will of Sigmar, under the star called Sigmadil, made by Sigmar from purest Sigmarite and shining on the city of Sigmaron, in the Sigmarabulum is where the Sigmarite is forged into Sigmarite Armour for the Sigmarites who fight for Sigmar.

This is the most ORIGINAL fantasy setting I have ever heard of! Anyone who argues is a blind GW hater who has a neck-beard and only plays tournament lists and something something something.

ColShaw
17-07-2015, 21:20
Dwarfs on fire

That would be a good name for a metal band.

I have to say, Sigmadil is kind of a new low. They're doing this to be copyrighted, while skating as close as they possibly can to a name made up by the most famous of all fantasy authors. Have they no shame at all?

ScruffMan
17-07-2015, 21:36
In the grim-shinyness of the (Warhammer World's) far future, there is only war (as in, that's the only occupation or activity), so it makes sense that everyone who dies just comes back as another warrior constantly.

Don't worry, eventually Chaos will be contained and the realms will be re-forged into one world, and Sigmar will spread his essence around the new humans into shamans and wise men to guide them. Then eventually they will stop being re-born as Chaos slowly awakens and he will have to come together as one being again, revealing himself as the Emperor, hide until the Apocalypse, create the Thunder Warriors in the image of the Sigmarites, then Space Marines, Heresy, ect, and finally the whole timeline will make sense (with the Eldar's fall being revealed to have not 'created' Slaanesh but to have Awakened the true 4th Chaos God as it was trapped in slumber post WH:ET and into AoS).



Dude, By the will of Sigmar, under the star called Sigmadil, made by Sigmar from purest Sigmarite and shining on the city of Sigmaron, in the Sigmarabulum is where the Sigmarite is forged into Sigmarite Armour for the Sigmarites who fight for Sigmar.

This is the most ORIGINAL fantasy setting I have ever heard of! Anyone who argues is a blind GW hater who has a neck-beard and only plays tournament lists and something something something.


Yeah right! Like they'd be able to bring the two settings together that elegantly. ;)

Tyranno1
17-07-2015, 22:46
Pah to that.

My Tomb Kings are still noble and loyal to Settra!

SETTRA DOES NOT KNEEL! SETTRA RULES!

That is the 1 good thing that came out of the end times, and AoS is the worst.

Its bland, its forced and it is a slap in the face to the writers who spent years crafting the previous world.

AngryAngel
17-07-2015, 23:49
I found your post to be severely lacking in onjectivity :)

Anyway, being objective is one the key principles of my occupation. Lets get back to the fantasy side of things.

This new great drake/celestial dragon friend of Sigmars eh... Dracothion.

Per White Dwarf 76 Dracothion caught the remnants of the old Warhammer world (he called the remnants "Mallus") in his jaws so he must be a big ****!

Random thought: Sigmars new palace city is called "Sigmaron" and the "magical iron" mined from Mallus is called "sigmarite". In addition he controls something called the "Sigmarabulum" which has the forges of the Six Smiths (whoever they are?)

So my question for you fellow Warseerites is....

When did Sigmar become such a narcissist?

Im surprised he hasn't renamed his hammer SigMaraz.

Thoughts?

That fact that is real actually hurts me.


Sigmarines is mocking GW though (at least I think so!).

It is, but I mean, the fluff needs some serious mocking, and really you can hardly notice it is made up, honestly these names are beyond dumb.



Don't forget the artificial star Sigmadil, made by Sigmar from purest Sigmarite and shining on the city of Sigmaron.

I know I love it, I'm a Sigmoron for this fluff, really. I can't wait to get it all on audio book and make people hear it.


SETTRA DOES NOT KNEEL! SETTRA RULES!

That is the 1 good thing that came out of the end times, and AoS is the worst.

Its bland, its forced and it is a slap in the face to the writers who spent years crafting the previous world.

I think I agree, the character in some of the very potent heroes in the old world was worlds better then all this AoS crap put together. As in, Settras pages of description and history alone, is better then the AoS world fluff. Sad state of affairs.

AngryAngel
18-07-2015, 00:40
Here's a thought, have you thought about getting off your high horse and acting like less of an ass? I mean you do realize that you have now labeled every single person who actually likes AOS as being so stupid that they'd fall for a "Nigerian Prince" scam. At what point did you think that was an acceptable way to act towards others of a differing opinion. Don't worry though, I'm certain you won't suffer any repercussions at all for such unsavory behavior and everyone else will continue to be just as insulting as well.

I mean, there's disliking something and then theirs being a complete reprobate of a human being about it.

To be fair, your side of the debate has been equally or more insulting. I was compared to a member of ISIS for finding the silly rules in the warscrolls for current warhammer armies stupid. I can tell you which one I'd find more insulting.

Further, why not actually explain why the AoS fluff is awesome as opposed to just get all bristly for being offended.

Kensai X
18-07-2015, 00:44
I just don't see how this new world functions. Since the world is just happened upon and randomly populated by a Man-God who uses an art style outside of his own timeline. Do the Elfs remember the old world? Are Celestians imbued with Good emotional powers, can they lose them, Law-Spawn? How are any of the books going to justify maps... Great Law Demons? Are spells and prayers do utilizing the same forces? Did the Chaos Dwarfs bring Hashut? What about the Great Maw?

GrandmasterWang
18-07-2015, 02:15
That fact that is real actually hurts me.



The Signames are indeed painful :)

Imo the only thing that could possibly salvage them is if they are tied into the whole "Slaanesh is missing" storyline.

Ie. The reason Slaanesh can't be found is that he has spent the time since the end of the old world subtly influencing, manipulating and working his magic over Sigmar. Slowly but surely turning Sigmar more vain and prideful bit by bit so that now 1000 years down the track Sigmar is so arrogant, conceited and full of himself that he names everything after himself (see Exhibit A: Sigmaron)

Sigmania is runnin Wild Brotha!!

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk

Groza
18-07-2015, 03:12
The Signames are indeed painful :)

Imo the only thing that could possibly salvage them is if they are tied into the whole "Slaanesh is missing" storyline.

Ie. The reason Slaanesh can't be found is that he has spent the time since the end of the old world subtly influencing, manipulating and working his magic over Sigmar. Slowly but surely turning Sigmar more vain and prideful bit by bit so that now 1000 years down the track Sigmar is so arrogant, conceited and full of himself that he names everything after himself (see Exhibit A: Sigmaron)

Sigmania is runnin Wild Brotha!!

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk
Even the jokes people come up with are more fun than the actual AoS lore :D

Kakapo42
18-07-2015, 03:18
You know I wonder if you could come up with some sort of drinking game for the AoS background? Something along the lines of taking one shot every time a word has 'Sigmar' in it, one shot every time a given character or faction is described as eternal, two shots every time you come across a bizarre compound word ('Bloodstoker', 'Realmgate' etc.) and so on?

Okuto
18-07-2015, 03:54
AS far as I'm concerned......it doesn't exist;)

I've read it, slept on it and pretended it was all a dream, woke up and tried to think how my force fits in it and quickly realized that I should just stopping stressing over it and get on with playing.

Although I've not read the big book yet....and don't think I will be as I have no intention of giving cash for it.

Maybe it'll grow on me, but codpieces, puffy pants and guns made me fall in love with warhammer fantasy.....AoS lacks these qualities and I don't think I'll see them again so the current fluff has no magic for me

Charistoph
18-07-2015, 04:21
The names could be worse (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqWJNu-IllU), but not by much.

Good thing I'm not attracted to the Celestials so I can ignore them. I'm more interested in Beasts, Dwarfs and the Bretons.

Darnok
18-07-2015, 04:25
You know I wonder if you could come up with some sort of drinking game for the AoS background? Something along the lines of taking one shot every time a word has 'Sigmar' in it, one shot every time a given character or faction is described as eternal, two shots every time you come across a bizarre compound word ('Bloodstoker', 'Realmgate' etc.) and so on?

You'd be on your way to the emergency room before ending the first page I guess...

Sothron
18-07-2015, 05:23
You know I wonder if you could come up with some sort of drinking game for the AoS background? Something along the lines of taking one shot every time a word has 'Sigmar' in it, one shot every time a given character or faction is described as eternal, two shots every time you come across a bizarre compound word ('Bloodstoker', 'Realmgate' etc.) and so on?

Honestly, not joking, we would die from alcohol poisoning. Not that your idea isn't a good one to point out the absurdity of these names but no one's liver could withstand that much alcohol.

AlexHolker
18-07-2015, 05:25
Basically the 'fluff' we have now is like Chapter 1 of of a book, I shall see in the future whether I like it or not but will not pass judgement on the whole Nine Realms based off of a snippet if you get what I am saying.
This argument reminds me of the excuse given for the sorry state of League of Legends' lore after the retcon. There too an interesting setting has been demolished in favour of a far less structurally sound setting, for the sake of future content that has not yet shown itself.

But as the saying goes, "Pillage, then burn." If AoS is not yet up to the task of replacing the old lore, then they shouldn't have thrown out the Old World until it is.

I mean, I had zero interest in anything in the Old World bigger than a Blood Bowl team or Mordheim warband, but it was at least a setting where those Mordheim warbands could exist. All AoS has to offer so far is things that are not people in any interesting sense. There's a place for such creatures - in a Necromancer's horde of zombies, for example, but even a sphinx or a dragon can be a character (http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/images/dmag_gallery/100241.jpg) and not just a walking pile of hit points.

Losing Command
18-07-2015, 06:08
Well to start the Sigmarines are terribly, terribly bland. People who found space marine chapters like Ultramarines and Grey Knights bland because of their flawnessless, well we have a new force even more flawless than those. Ultramarines at least still seem to sometimes fall foul to being to pridedfull ; Grey Knights might be incorruptable, but don't think twice about killing everbody who was on their side after the daemons are gone. Marines in general still have flaws and character, which makes them interesting.

In the first AoS novel, Sigmarines are basicly described as having no personality. Whatever and whoever they were is erased from their memory, at best they vaguely remember things from their previous life (but they don't, as the story often likes to remind you) And then the only guy who remembers some things from his previous life, who might have shown some character or you know, emotion, reminds himself "But I am now a Sigmarine, I have no emotions (or character) !" and then wins whatever fight. The whole thing almost read like a script for a Shamalan movie :shifty: Sigmarines are eternal, not scared of anything, protect everybody not chaos, and even if they get killed they will just be brought back to life after a while. They might lose a battle, but then they can just 'respawn' and try again. There just isn't anything you have to worry about for them, so why should you care ? They aren't even one-dimensional characters, and that in a nine-dimensional setting :rolleyes:
And about the whole setting : there just is hardly anything known about it. The novel is mainly about how the khorne dudes want to slaughter and fight, and how the Sigmarines want and will save everybody. All I know is the number of realms, what each realm represents and who most likely lives there ... and that's it. Nothing about what the realms look like, what they are or how they are connected or depended of one another.

And to all the "But you should just wait, it might get better !" (this includes talking about the rules) How long do I have to wait ? I was interested in starting a Lizardmen army some day, but that interest is gone, as there is nothing known about Lizardmen in the new setting (I still might, but only to play 8th or KoW like all fantasy players here are going to do)

I mean, the plan GW had probably involved creating something that would make them more money than old Fantasy right ? How does people waiting a couple of years untill things improve fit into that ?If it was a small starting studio then I would understand it, but I think it is fair to say GW is a fairly established company by now.

Lexington
18-07-2015, 06:10
For a setting that's supposed to be so broad and all-encompassing, the AoS universe doesn't seem to be the sort of place where you could write about, say, the odd friendship between a human and a dwarf as they seek the latter's grand doom. Looked at from that angle, AoS seems like a very small place, with very few stories to tell.

Jind_Singh
18-07-2015, 06:17
They needed to follow up with a release that was like nagash

MASSIVE story book from where the last tale ended with sigmar falling to the rise of the new realms

Then destroy the realms and take us to where we are now

That would have been epic

Buddy Bear
18-07-2015, 10:40
Blight City?!? :wtf:

Groza
18-07-2015, 10:46
To accompany the "Bling City" of the Sigmarines :D

Ultraloth
18-07-2015, 11:06
I mean, I know Alexander the Great built several cities he named Alexandria; but he had the good sense to stop there.

No he didn't, he named one city after his horse. I wouldn't hold that up as an example of good taste.

Tokamak
18-07-2015, 11:17
Got to break eggs to make an omelette. The Old World was a precious Faberge egg in which everything was sacrosanct.

A world with multiple realities allows GW to keep on expanding indefinitely. This means that there's room for quaint and rustic fantasy for those familiar who dig the old editions (like me) but also allows for worlds that are either more primal, more ethereal, more exotic, more 'high fantasy', more steampunk, more lovecraft, more anything.

I'm not going to judge it for the way it started. Cheesy good vs cheesy evil. Fine. I actually like that GW just went ahead and got that trope out of the way. I can imagine more creative concepts to follow. I'm looking forward to the whole primordeal realm of beasts and I'm hoping for a world similar to the old world.

Avian
18-07-2015, 11:29
Got to break eggs to make an omelette. The Old World was a precious Faberge egg in which everything was sacrosanct.
You can't make omelettes from Faberge eggs. In fact, breaking a Faberge egg will do nothing except lose you money.

Nice analogy. ;)

MOMUS
18-07-2015, 12:03
I liek sigmar

Abaraxas
18-07-2015, 12:14
I hate to be negative, but I've found everything I've read about the fluff for AoS to be absolutely woeful...and that's the nicest way I can put it.

Sorry to be a grognard or whatever, but (IMO) the fluff for both WHFB and 40K has been getting progressively worse for at least the last decade...not that I pay too much attention as my Warhammer worlds remain happily in the 90's.

KingDeath
18-07-2015, 12:30
Utterly bland and boring. I have no reason to care in any way about the Sigmarines or their ever mindnumbing opponents, the drooling idiots of Khorne, in their own personal Valhalla.
They aren't people but mere shameful figleaves of a story to sell some plastic toys.

Ultraloth
18-07-2015, 12:41
They aren't people but mere shameful figleaves of a story to sell some plastic toys.

Both the games and the fictious settings have ALLWAYS been vehicles to sell miniatures. From the start it has been their sole reason for existing.

And IMHO none of the novels have ever been good enough to have been published without the build in sales potential of a recognized IP. I find all this acting like they ever were great literary creations to be somewhat laughable. Don't get me wrong, I've read plenty gameworld related novels/novellas and found them entertaining enough to kill some spare time with, but none of them I would ever recommend to anyone who doesn't allready has some interest in the game world.

Tokamak
18-07-2015, 12:51
How exactly is this a fair statement? Some books have been New York Times bestsellers. If you're saying that's merely because they fit in a recognised franchise then isn't that also true for just about every other series ever made? Don't get me wrong, BL has very inconsistent quality but the best books they published are down right classics. To merely dismiss them as a cynical ploy to milk a miniature game is grossly inaccurate.

And as for the rules. GW wouldn't be a viable business without rules. AoS is going to be the perfect experiment to see whether rules merely exist to push miniature sales. Free and lousy with the same amazing miniature range. Let's see what happens in the next few years.

Kyriakin
18-07-2015, 13:02
This thread is like Poe's law. The reality is so messed up that AoS is almost impossible to parody.

A few quotes on here I assumed were people messing about and they turned out to be actual quotes.

Ultraloth
18-07-2015, 13:08
How exactly is this a fair statement? Some books have been New York Times bestsellers. If you're saying that's merely because they fit in a recognised franchise then isn't that also true for just about every other series ever made?

Don't get me wrong, BL has very inconsistent quality but the best books they published are down right classics. To merely dismiss them as a cynical ploy to milk a miniature game is grossly inaccurate.
Look, all of this is subjective so feel to free to have a different oppinion on the literary quality of BL's most succesfull books.. To me, being a NY best seller proves absolutely nothing. A movie being a box office hit doesn't make it cinematographic classic. Indeed most people would confess they only want easy to digest spectacle for a lazy summer evening. The real proof would be if those same books are still widely read in 100 years time. (Sidestepping the question whether reading will still be a thing by then.)

Besides that, it's not cinical but realistic to recognize the fact that there is no inherent difference between BL and GW's new line of branded T-shirts. I'll grant you that the launch of BL proves that GW recognized that they could sell books about their fictional world independent of their games, but that was an unexpected byproduct and not the reason the world was created in the first place. Rick Priestley has been quite frank about that.

KingDeath
18-07-2015, 13:23
Both the games and the fictious settings have ALLWAYS been vehicles to sell miniatures. From the start it has been their sole reason for existing.

And IMHO none of the novels have ever been good enough to have been published without the build in sales potential of a recognized IP. I find all this acting like they ever were great literary creations to be somewhat laughable. Don't get me wrong, I've read plenty gameworld related novels/novellas and found them entertaining enough to kill some spare time with, but none of them I would ever recommend to anyone who doesn't allready has some interest in the game world.

They were never great literary creations but at least the old Warhammer fluff never made it's attempt to sell miniatures so overly visible. Unlike to Sigmarines and some unfathomale divine being i can vaguely relate to both the low and the mighty in Warhammer Fantasy because at the end of the day they were at least conceptualy inspired by real human beings and their struggles, that is 15th century soldiers, nobles and kings. Sure, 15th century germany never had to endure a chaos invasion but bloody war and political division aswell as the effects it had on the people, both low and high, were real. Hells, once upon a time even ravaging hordes which prayed to strange unknowable gods and murdered and plundered to their hearts content were real. Age of Sigmar has burned away these last few connections to reality (or perhaps rather our idea of what we think was late medieval reality) and replaced it with a setting which has nothing in common with what we could call the human experience or the human struggle.
So, without the human factor and little else to make both current (that is, the starterbox's) factions interesting why bother?

Ultraloth
18-07-2015, 13:30
They were never great literary creations but at least the old Warhammer fluff never made it's attempt to sell miniatures so overly visible. Unlike to Sigmarines and some unfathomale divine being i can vaguely relate to both the low and the mighty in Warhammer Fantasy because at the end of the day they were at least conceptualy inspired by real human beings and their struggles, that is 15th century soldiers, nobles and kings. Sure, 15th century germany never had to endure a chaos invasion but bloody war and political division aswell as the effects it had on the people, both low and high, were real. Hells, once upon a time even ravaging hordes which prayed to strange unknowable gods and murdered and plundered to their hearts content were real. Age of Sigmar has burned away these last few connections to reality (or perhaps rather our idea of what we think was late medieval reality) and replaced it with a setting which has nothing in common with what we could call the human experience or the human struggle.
So, without the human factor and little else to make both current (that is, the starterbox's) factions interesting why bother?
WOW lacks all of those things and yet is immensely popular. AOS very much comes across as GW's atempt to gain WOW levels of general awareness and succes. Whether that is a wise move for a miniatures company remains to be seen. (Also, you've got to enjoy the irony!)

Longstrider
18-07-2015, 13:31
It's "Bloodstrike missiles" dialed up to 12. Compared to the AoS "background", some writings of Ward read like high literature.

:cries:

Yeah, "bloodstrike missile" and "bloodfists" were pretty terrible, but so was Canis Wolfborn, Lord of Thunderwolves, Wolf Guard of Harald Deathwolf, with Wolf Claws and Wolf Tail Talisman. On the other hand, it isn't just Sigmar's stuff that's called stupid things. "Bloodsecrator" is a thing in AoS.

I mean, what has it been with GW and BL of late? I just finished reading Nick Kyme's HH novel Deathfire, and he continues his pattern of naming everything after one thing. So we had a Pyre Captain leading some Pyroclasts and Pyreborn in The Pyre.


Both the games and the fictious settings have ALLWAYS been vehicles to sell miniatures. From the start it has been their sole reason for existing.

And IMHO none of the novels have ever been good enough to have been published without the build in sales potential of a recognized IP. I find all this acting like they ever were great literary creations to be somewhat laughable. Don't get me wrong, I've read plenty gameworld related novels/novellas and found them entertaining enough to kill some spare time with, but none of them I would ever recommend to anyone who doesn't allready has some interest in the game world.

Sure, I don't think there's anything (and I've read quite a lot of BL's stuff from Fantasy and 40k) that would necessarily stand out if it weren't tied into a franchise I already liked. Some of it was still better (well, Pyre, Wolf, and Blood aside) than the AoS stuff. Part of that is of course that AoS is new - but then, isn't this EXACTLY the time GW should be wowing us? Why would I wait and see - especially at their prices? At best, if someone whose taste I trusted tells me so, borrow a book or two a year down the line, when we've given it time to flourish. But I expect better from GW and from GW's prices. And given their experience in having a publishing wing and (presumably) an in-house writing team for so many years.

Tyelacoirii
18-07-2015, 14:10
Did anything in Fantasy get in the New York Times list? There was a period when Horus Heresy books were regularly making it in but I think that dropped off as they tended towards somewhat meaningless (if typically inoffensive) filler.

This does raise the point though that Black Library made the setting. The Army books alone certainly didn't tell a great story. 90% or so of it was rehashed fluff from 20 years ago. There was that vague narrative about Aliathra but that was just setting the scene for The End Times and was generally not especially explored. There were your Wardesque "this army/character is awesome. Watch them defeat/kill X & Y in single paragraphs regardless of how irrational it may be" but they didn't really go anywhere either.

So I have mixed views on the lore. On the one hand the non-Black Library writing is getting worse and worse - and everything to do with Sigmar is just lame. At the same time though, kind of like End Times itself, I still want to know what happens next and am at least passingly interested in everything aside from Sigmar. The question is whether I am going to spend £45 every few months to keep up with the story. The answer if End Times is anything to go by is that I probably won't.

Warmahordes suggests I could certainly be tempted - but £20 for an annual(ish?) update seems different scale. Also those books have something for everyone whereas I fear this is going to be "look at the Sigmarite covered Sigmarines in Sigmarton, oh and here is a paragraph on these other characters just to show they are still alive".

Scribe of Khorne
18-07-2015, 14:21
Did anything in Fantasy get in the New York Times list? There was a period when Horus Heresy books were regularly making it in but I think that dropped off as they tended towards somewhat meaningless (if typically inoffensive) filler.


I believe the HH line dropped off the NYT Best Sellers list when they both changed formats (to the Hardcover and massed audio) and started intentionally hiding their release schedule.

The books themselves would have continued to fly off the shelf if they had remained in a stable format. I'm sure the authors just love what BL has done to the HH line...

DarkChaplain
18-07-2015, 15:06
I believe the HH line dropped off the NYT Best Sellers list when they both changed formats (to the Hardcover and massed audio) and started intentionally hiding their release schedule.

The books themselves would have continued to fly off the shelf if they had remained in a stable format. I'm sure the authors just love what BL has done to the HH line...

This. The moment GW/BL switched to direct-only Hardback Collector's Editions for the HH novels, with a 3 month wait til the trade paperbacks and another 6 months til the mass market format (which was the one getting onto the lists in the first place), they negated any chances at getting on those lists in the future.

Fantasy meanwhile got jack all for marketing. Heck, I remember Josh Reynolds' The Serpent Queen (Gotrek & Felix) quietly being released with just a "this is out now" note in WD while they kept waffling on and on about 40k on their website. Nevermind that their marketing in general is pee-poor. Can we call it incestuous marketing, since they only ever advertise to their pre-existing customer base (which they keep alienating..)?

Ultraloth
18-07-2015, 15:35
I believe the HH line dropped off the NYT Best Sellers list when they both changed formats (to the Hardcover and massed audio) and started intentionally hiding their release schedule.

The books themselves would have continued to fly off the shelf if they had remained in a stable format. I'm sure the authors just love what BL has done to the HH line...
You're sure it had nothing to do with the writing becomming worse as time went by and the subject becomming more sideline stuff to the main event? That sure is what made me stop reading them.

turtle123
18-07-2015, 15:58
Yeah, "bloodstrike missile" and "bloodfists" were pretty terrible, but so was Canis Wolfborn, Lord of Thunderwolves, Wolf Guard of Harald Deathwolf, with Wolf Claws and Wolf Tail Talisman. On the other hand, it isn't just Sigmar's stuff that's called stupid things. "Bloodsecrator" is a thing in AoS.

I mean, what has it been with GW and BL of late? I just finished reading Nick Kyme's HH novel Deathfire, and he continues his pattern of naming everything after one thing. So we had a Pyre Captain leading some Pyroclasts and Pyreborn in The Pyre.


Was laughing my ass off when I read this. The naming is really aimed at the pre-teens. The 40K fluff has gone over the top with the space mahreen wolfriders, that baby-carrying grey knight thing, the marushka doll space mahreens and that Dark Angels skimmer with physics-defying turret placed in its nose. That's why I stick to reading the HH books.

As to AoS... It's weird. The Sigmarines from Sigmarland that use Sigmarhammers goes along with bloods, wolves and pyres of the mahreens. The setting is so drastically different than the Old and New World that I'm not sure what to make of it. I can't say that I necessarily like it. But if the models are cool enough and the adequately develop the fluff, I'll get used to it and learn to like it once the shock is over.

Sothron
18-07-2015, 19:01
I am calling it now: When they do the Horus Heresy for AoS the Chaos traitors will be called instead of Stormcast Eternals...Stormcast Infernals. Get it? It is like almost the same but one is BAD.

thesoundofmusica
18-07-2015, 19:18
Its like poetry, they rhyme.

DeathGlam
19-07-2015, 12:05
Not had chance to read anything more then has been leaked online, some interesting ideas that i will wait to see fleshed out hopefully.

Obviously like everyone else not a fan of the over the top using of Sigmar in everything although it does not really bother me but then i have always had a filter for bad fluff from all the books set in any GW world that i have read from the last 20 years too.

Im more waiting for proper Black Library novels(300 plus pages) to get a better feel for the world, as if it is like the End Times series then they will be much better then the GW big books.

Longstrider
20-07-2015, 00:17
Was laughing my ass off when I read this. The naming is really aimed at the pre-teens. The 40K fluff has gone over the top with the space mahreen wolfriders, that baby-carrying grey knight thing, the marushka doll space mahreens and that Dark Angels skimmer with physics-defying turret placed in its nose. That's why I stick to reading the HH books.

As to AoS... It's weird. The Sigmarines from Sigmarland that use Sigmarhammers goes along with bloods, wolves and pyres of the mahreens. The setting is so drastically different than the Old and New World that I'm not sure what to make of it. I can't say that I necessarily like it. But if the models are cool enough and the adequately develop the fluff, I'll get used to it and learn to like it once the shock is over.

The kicker is all of those are actual examples of writing they've put out, no exaggeration. I think, actually, that I would quite like AoS's background if it gets any character infused into it, but this completely nonsensical naming habit is going to constantly get in my craw regardless.

SimaoSegunda
20-07-2015, 00:18
I've been reading the big new book, having been quite excited to see what would happen. I devoured the end times books, and have been really enjoying the new game, and now...

**** me, it's awful. Sigmar this and Sigmar that is bad enough, but... Sigmar threw a load of lightning, that turned out to be carrying immortal dudes in gold armour, who spend days fighting over gates that have apparently been closed to stop things getting in and out of a realm, with no explanation of how the sigmarines were actually able to get outside the doors to open them in the first place. Then somebody gets knocked out, and spends three days walking back to his castle, then murders all his troops and uses the Blood to summon different troops instead. And then he needs to offer up the head of an immortal to become a deamon, but he won't use any of the heads he's taken from a regular immortal, for no good reason. And the sigmarines are all perfect and can't die, so why are we supposed to care about all the ones who get sent back to their respawn point?

The fluff is utter toss. Not only is it not enhancing my enjoyment of the game and setting, it's actually ruining it for me. I've been trying to be really positive on the forums since the game came out, and have been actively promoting it at my FLGS, running demo games and lending armies to people wanting to try it out, and furiously painting models... And sitting here reading this fluff is soul-destroying. I'll still play the game, cos I'm really enjoying how it plays, but the op asked about the fluff... I'll admit, I'm somewhat less than thrilled with it.

NoobLord
20-07-2015, 00:29
Its like poetry, they rhyme.

Hehe :) I so want Mr Plinkett to do a 3 hour review of Rage of Sigmar.

thesoundofmusica
20-07-2015, 07:53
Hehe :) I so want Mr Plinkett to do a 3 hour review of Rage of Sigmar.

That would be great :)

King Julrf
20-07-2015, 19:46
My only hope for AoS is that GW has gone full circle and are now purposely writing terrible fluff to troll us.

So there are a couple more stories about Sigmar's Sigmarines using their Sighammers to save Sigcity from the Bloodbound, who are using their bloodblades and bloodhounds to spill blood.

Then, GW will be all like 'Oh, come on guys. You didn't think we were serious? Here's your old Fantasy back. Got ya!'

jet_palero
20-07-2015, 22:24
My only hope for AoS is that GW has gone full circle and are now purposely writing terrible fluff to troll us.

So there are a couple more stories about Sigmar's Sigmarines using their Sighammers to save Sigcity from the Bloodbound, who are using their bloodblades and bloodhounds to spill blood.

Then, GW will be all like 'Oh, come on guys. You didn't think we were serious? Here's your old Fantasy back. Got ya!'

You see, GW doesn't do market research, so they have no idea of the age brackets they're customers fall into. They really think this stuff is what we like. I think they believe we are all 10-14 year old millionaires, who enjoy putting together plastic figures and then going "pew pew pew."

Kahadras
20-07-2015, 22:47
You see, GW doesn't do market research, so they have no idea of the age brackets they're customers fall into. They really think this stuff is what we like. I think they believe we are all 10-14 year old millionaires, who enjoy putting together plastic figures and then going "pew pew pew."

Yup. There isn't the old talent around nowadays and they seem to have been replaced by a bunch of yes men who churn out plenty of generic names that GW can slap a tm on and 'own' for the rest of time. In addition the setting seems to be aimed at a younger audience with stuff such as 'super heroes that can never die' and the removal of Slaneesh as a Chaos god (probably to be replaced by something much more 'work safe').

vlad78
20-07-2015, 23:38
My only hope for AoS is that GW has gone full circle and are now purposely writing terrible fluff to troll us.

So there are a couple more stories about Sigmar's Sigmarines using their Sighammers to save Sigcity from the Bloodbound, who are using their bloodblades and bloodhounds to spill blood.

Then, GW will be all like 'Oh, come on guys. You didn't think we were serious? Here's your old Fantasy back. Got ya!'

My only hope is that AOS will be such a disaster that GW will be forced to ask why.

Turgol
21-07-2015, 00:01
I like the idea behind AoS's fluff. But it does not have a strong fluff yet. There is pretty much only one story right now, and that is the multiple Sigmarine attack on the Realmgates. Hints of stuff which will take place on Aqsy, Ghyran and Chamon, and even some other on Ulgu, are there, but everything is pretty much on the air.

The AoS book is not really a fluff book in either of the two meanings: as a comprehensive guide to a setting or as a narrative. It is too vague for both. It is rather meant as an "inspiration book" whose aim is to introduce the player to the AoS world, but on a very general way. The old Army Books had a much more concrete fluff section. Maybe the fluff section of the big rulebook on WHFB is more similar to this book. But since 6th edition, as all armies were already formed, you got a much more concrete idea about the setting by reading that section as you do with AoS. That is not necessarily a fault of the AoS book. The setting is simply not yet fully formed. AoS just offers a mythology and a vague description of the realms and armies, with the exception of chaos and the Sigmarines which are less vaguely described. Even the part which could have been used as a real narrative, the three campaigns, are aimed to serve as inspiration for you to narratively play the scenarios included there, which are not scenarios linked to narrative events (as in ET), but it is rather the other way around: the scenarios use a simple narrative as an excuse to introduce them.

So we have so far only a general description of the mythology of the Mortal Realms from the point of view of Sigmar; a very general description of the wars which led to the reign of chaos; and a description of the Stormcast invasion. Not enough to like it or not.

Now, what I do like is the idea of a new world which depicts a real struggle between powers, and not just a grim dark description of a futile resistance. I also like the fact that the gods have a small narrative which influences the factions they represent. Nagash and Grimnir (apart from Sigmar and the Chaos Gods, of course) are good representation of this. The elven gods could lead to some interesting stuff as well, but it is only hinted at so far.

I'am missing, on the other hand, a mortal narrative. The only real character we have been introduced to so far is Vandus Hammerhand, who like all Space Marines is really not that likeable at all. A complete reboot is always an opportunity to have new Karl Franzes, Ungrims, Tyrions, etc. This is just a promise so far though. Will have to see.

So, final verdict: this has potential, which has not yet been fulfilled. I hope that GW does not release only "inspiration books" in the future, but also something more similar to the old army books. Don't get me wrong: I do like the idea behind the AoS book. One or two of those a year is a nice idea. But it does not preclude the need for real army books. WHFB fluff got really to a nice level with the HE and Undead books on 4th edition.

Ayin
21-07-2015, 00:03
You see, GW doesn't do market research, so they have no idea of the age brackets they're customers fall into. They really think this stuff is what we like. I think they believe we are all 10-14 year old millionaires, who enjoy putting together plastic figures and then going "pew pew pew."

They have a market segment who they WANT their customers to fall into, and they are doing everything they can to market to that desired demographic regardless of what their ACTUAL consumer base is made up of.

They WANT 10-14 year old boys for a couple (+/-2) years who come from well to do families and who will come in, spend big and leave the hobby, and they're willing to target them with everything from industry standard naming systems (easier to define factions for products bought by parents) to complexity of narrative. They don't CARE if their market is made up of 24-45 year olds, nor do they have any interest in trying to expand into other market groups (ie the absolute CLASSIC 'girls don't play games/ect').

The bearded one
21-07-2015, 00:24
Every bit of fluff for Age of Sigmar I've seen so far does not impress me. The only thing I kinda like is how it doesn't hammer home that "the world is DOOMED", but that there's a more even struggle.

To me it seems a massively generic high-fantasy setting (There must be hundreds of people on this forum who could draft a more interesting outline during lunch), with its writing and artistic direction being fully governed by corporate concerns*



* I never get why corporations seem to be so pathetic at this. Even the most cursory glance at the (fantasy) media landscape should tell them that intricate settings with interesting characters and shades of grey are popular, rather than repeating "awesome hero hammered enemies really hard" in various combinations. Yet I'm constantly hearing things like... how GW/Black Library put a ban on writing about civilian viewpoints in the novels. Because it must always be space marines all the time. Who hammer very hard.

Griefbringer
21-07-2015, 07:47
rather than repeating "awesome hero hammered enemies really hard"

Actual corporate approved versions would probably read more like this:

"Malleus Maximus (TM), the great champion of the Free People of Hammerland (TM), went worth and smote his Bloodenemies (TM) with his mighty Wunderhammer (TM). The greatly bloodied Bloodenemies (TM) fled most swiftly back to the Bloodlands (TM) where they cried great Rivers of Blood (TM) due to their embarrassing defeat. Meanwhile the Free People of Hammerland (TM) organised a mighty Freedomhammerparade (TM) to celebrate the great victory of Malleus Maximum (TM), after which they got really hammered with Freedomhammerbeer (TM) ."

By introducing Distinctive Names, the setting gains Strong Trademarks, which are greatly belowed by the Corporate Lawyers. On the other hands, such abstract and complex issues as intricate settings with interesting characters in five hundred shades of grey cannot be marked with the Mighty Trademarkhammer and are thus of less interest for the Corporate Lawyers.

Ayin
21-07-2015, 08:02
* I never get why corporations seem to be so pathetic at this. Even the most cursory glance at the (fantasy) media landscape should tell them that intricate settings with interesting characters and shades of grey are popular, rather than repeating "awesome hero hammered enemies really hard" in various combinations. Yet I'm constantly hearing things like... how GW/Black Library put a ban on writing about civilian viewpoints in the novels. Because it must always be space marines all the time. Who hammer very hard.

They aim for their target market.

It's not people with a decade or more of literacy under their belts, let alone experience with other developed fictional settings.

NoobLord
21-07-2015, 08:02
I hope the GW reps at GenCon wander over to Moon Design's booth and take a look at the Guide to Glorantha (the all-time premier book* of fluff in the history of gaming) and then skulk back with their tails between their legs thinking 'we must try harder'.

* well, 2 volumes, 3 if you include the atlas.