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Vulgarsty
16-07-2015, 22:36
Anybody from an independent store want to give us an idea of actual versus projected units shifted?

(I had bought 4 boxes of IoB and 4 BFSP by this stage whereas I'm yet to get 1 AoS - and that would be just for the Khorne bits)

Ayin
16-07-2015, 22:40
Just get the Khorne bits online. No few people are just buying the box and splitting it up for sale.

Kind of reminds me of the ticket scalping issue in 'sold out' venues.

Senbei
16-07-2015, 22:48
I'm not from a store, but I can point out that the Ltd edition version has yet to sell out. They're usually gone within a couple of days of popping up on the site, but not this time.

Most people seem to be predicting that there will be a slight rise in sales followed by a slight overall improvement or a total catastophe. As for which we see, we'll need to give it more time first.

Azazel
16-07-2015, 22:54
I'd say pretty good since a lot of kits are out of stock and bases were sold out for a few days.

Malagor
16-07-2015, 22:54
Don't have any numbers but tje store that I use had alot of the starter sets up for sale, last time I was there, maybe only 1-2 boxes had been sold.
Compare this to the End Times or Dark Vengance and it's not doing very well.
But then again, most people bought the starter sets to get the smaller rulebook and there is no need for that in AoS case since the rules are free.

Buddy Bear
16-07-2015, 22:56
32mm bases? If you mean those, those have been perpetually selling out since Blood Angels started getting released on them.

Azazel
16-07-2015, 23:11
25mm and others

Vulgarsty
16-07-2015, 23:16
Just get the Khorne bits online. No few people are just buying the box and splitting it up for sale.

Kind of reminds me of the ticket scalping issue in 'sold out' venues.


I did get 20 marauders for £21.50 inc postage, not exactly a bargain but cheaper than GW will do them loose. I could have got AoS for £52, which is about what I could get the Khorne bits for, but like someone said - its not like you get a rulebook and I'm simply not interested in the Sigmarines, even for the equivalent of about £2.

laughing with the old deals, cos Ive got 3 8th edition mini books left now, plus I could use or trade all the armies, i think there'll be a real over supply of sigmarines

Ayin
16-07-2015, 23:16
How anyone still buys bases from GW is beyond me.

That said, one or two people could easily clear several hundred if they go full-Sigmar.

MagicAngle
16-07-2015, 23:19
Well, the limited edition AoS book is still very much available for preorder after being up for a good few days now. Doesn't seem to compare well with the apparently "terrible" sales of the previous edition, where the rush for the EndTimes books broke the website and the limited ed books sold out in minutes.

BramGaunt
16-07-2015, 23:35
My local store sold 10 on the releaseday, plus a couple of preorders. With Islands of blood or Dark Vengeance it was usually 3 or 4 times that count.

Icarus81
16-07-2015, 23:52
All you're going to get is anecdotes from both sides. You're just going to have to wait for sales numbers.

Kegslayer
16-07-2015, 23:52
My local store sold 80 copies of the box set on release day and both my local gw`s sold out of all their boxes on release weekend and its been doing fairly well since

Tuatha Dar
17-07-2015, 02:15
I stopped in yesterday and spoke to the lady at our LGS. She said they have sold very few starter boxes. She also indicated she was not too pleased with GW pushing them to buy so many. They had a box open with the book so people could look at it. While I was there at least, everyone was ignoring it.

Venthrac
17-07-2015, 02:45
I'm not from a store, but I can point out that the Ltd edition version has yet to sell out. They're usually gone within a couple of days of popping up on the site, but not this time.

Most people seem to be predicting that there will be a slight rise in sales followed by a slight overall improvement or a total catastophe. As for which we see, we'll need to give it more time first.

I noticed that as well, though I also noticed the usual limited edition books are done in runs of closer to 1,000 and this was 2,000 books. So, not overly surprised they have not gone through them all yet.

Venthrac
17-07-2015, 02:46
Double post

heliodorus04
17-07-2015, 02:47
My local store sold 80 copies of the box set on release day and both my local gw`s sold out of all their boxes on release weekend and its been doing fairly well since

When pigs fly.

Ayin
17-07-2015, 03:00
My local store's sold one copy.

To a guy who wants to convert Stormcast to some type of Marines and who's selling the Chaos online.


80 copies of the box... In the biggest city in the US maybe?

Mawduce
17-07-2015, 03:44
My local store's sold one copy.

To a guy who wants to convert Stormcast to some type of Marines and who's selling the Chaos online.


80 copies of the box... In the biggest city in the US maybe?

Uh that would be New York I believe. They couldn't sell 80 boxes in New York, I find that hard to believe. Even for the bits of the armies for converting, or using in a chaos army all together.

akai
17-07-2015, 03:45
I noticed that as well, though I also noticed the usual limited edition books are done in runs of closer to 1,000 and this was 2,000 books. So, not overly surprised they have not gone through them all yet.

IIRC correctly, warhammer 7th collector's rulebook had 4000 made. 8th Collector's Rulebook had 3500 made. 8th sold out fairly fast iirc, but it also had a whole month pre-order.

The bearded one
17-07-2015, 04:02
When pigs fly.

Yes, 80 does seem rather massive (compared to only a handful everywhere else).

My local GW sold about 20-25 on preorders/midnight release, but then it has a pretty substantial customerbase - it was one of the top earning shops past (financial) year.

Dosiere
17-07-2015, 04:28
A big swing and a miss around here. It remains to be seen if new players can carry the weight of this thing, but few of the old fantasy players are into it. Without a nice big group playing I don't see how new players are going to be motivated to play. When 8th came out the store was packed on fantasy night for months. I know many, like myself, are waiting to see how AoS evolves with its next few releases at the very least.

Scribe of Khorne
17-07-2015, 04:58
My local hasnt sold one, and the even semi-close shops (within 100KM) have not pushed it in the least...

Tichey
17-07-2015, 05:06
None of the people I know who were playing 8th ed. got the new box, that said I have 3 different friends who had stopped playing WHFB who got the new set.

The Lurkin Gherkin
17-07-2015, 05:10
All my mates have ignored AOS except for 1 ex-tournament goer who looks as if he's struggling to reconcile the fact that the hams he loved is gone

Sothron
17-07-2015, 05:11
No one bought the starter sets at my LGS and the owner is furious. GW rep had promised that new gamers would replace the "old and bitter" gamers (GW rep words) in record numbers. LGS owner didn't believe him, only got a few and there they sit. The entire tabletop community here hates AoS after trying the rules and have turned to 8th/earlier editions or getting even more into Warmahordes or KoW.

Great job GW!

Ayin
17-07-2015, 05:16
All my mates have ignored AOS except for 1 ex-tournament goer who looks as if he's struggling to reconcile the fact that the hams he loved is gone

The hilarious part to me, is that of all the people I know personally involved in the hobby in any way, the only ones who are looking into AoS are the tournament players. Sound strange? It shouldn't.

Non-Tournament players have either large collections and have been playing fun house rules and made up stuff on their own for some time and were very invested in the hobby or had only minimal attachment. Either way, when everything changed and they were confronted with a brand new world and game system, they either stuck to what they loved, or shrugged and went back to doing something else.

Tournament players are highly invested in new releases and are willing to put huge work into comp packs and trying to get any release to work for them because they care about rules and competition without emotional attachment to units or fluff. To all of them I know, it's default that they'll at least TRY AoS and do some tourneys and comp packs and follow the developement of the game.


Funny how that works.

Scribe of Khorne
17-07-2015, 05:16
rofl, I love the anecdotal quotes from GW reps. Sales people are literally worth a million laughs, any time on a call with our sales folks trying to push our software I wonder 'where can I buy that!'

Losing Command
17-07-2015, 05:37
Even more anecdotal 'evidence' coming in :angel: The LGS here has yet to sell a starter set, though two guys were discussing about buying one together for the models.

The local GW store doesn't seem to have sold a whole lot either, there was no phote of a bunch of proud new owners of the latest released product on the store page this time. There was a reposted photo however of a shop in one of the bigger city's, with around 9 people holding a starter set.

Ayin
17-07-2015, 06:48
Regardless, the game will continue on in full release mode for at least a year. In a year, more likely two, we'll actually be able to look around and see where AoS stands in relation to where GW stands then comparably to now.

I have to say though, most people I have talked to say 'one or two', 'a couple', or 'a few' with the odd person or owner coming in at zero. That's in no way crazy bad or crazy good, pretty much what I'd expect from a newly launched non-40k GW game. The only claims that I haven't seen any evidence for are the 'flying off the shelves!' ones, and to treat both as equally likely to represent the entire initial launch week is...well, it's *a* decision, I guess.

some_scrub
17-07-2015, 07:05
It's probably hard to say how well the game is going to do based on its initial release, and it would probably be very hard to get any reasonable sales data, but I did notice this line in this week's Element Games newsletter: 'After the most popular release for any single product in Element Games' history the Age Of Sigmar canon is being expanded, with the addition of a 264-page hardback.'

I think part of that probably has to do with the recent growth of EG's business, but there are other things you could read into it if you were so inclined.

Archibald_TK
17-07-2015, 07:21
Shouldn't that thread be in General Discussion? Anyway the biggest number I've heard around here is 51 boxes sold out of 80 the day of release (they only reached 54 two days ago), this is from the biggest independent store that I know.

Personally I aimed low and didn't want to take more than 8 boxes despite my rep being very very pressing (got a phone call everyday to check if I had more preorders and wanted to add more boxes). I prefer losing sales than having unsold GW products on the shelves, especially due to the large amount of customers who were very clear they were adopting a wait and see attitude. In the end I sold everything and didn't lose sales at all. In fact it is quite alarming that interest in the product appears to be quite low now that the novelty has passed and alas I didn't see the players who were waiting to learn more about AoS come back for the boxes now that we have more info available.

That Saturday will be very important to gauge AoS staying power.


Regardless, the game will continue on in full release mode for at least a year. In a year, more likely two, we'll actually be able to look around and see where AoS stands in relation to where GW stands then comparably to now.
No, I assure you it won't take a year at all. Initial sales shall already impact LGS willingness to order unit boxes. If in a few weeks the game doesn't prove it has any staying power then it won't justify carrying a whole costly range of boxes, meaning that fielding the whole range will probably only be a viable option for GW stores themselves. No matter the initial sales, in less than 2 months GW will have a pretty clear picture of the success of the game.

Can you imagine the position of a store that has yet to empty its stocks of AoS, or even worse has more unsold boxes than sold ones? I assumed that GW aggressive attitude of pushing as many boxes on independent as they can at all cost and to hell with the consequences would come back to bite them sooner or later by hurting LGS trust in the product and their willingness to invest more into it. And not even one week after the release I'm pretty sure this is already happening.

Greyshadow
17-07-2015, 08:42
I assumed that GW aggressive attitude of pushing as many boxes on independent as they can at all cost and to hell with the consequences would come back to bite them sooner or later by hurting LGS trust...

Some very astute observations by someone in the know. Thank you for sharing that Archy. Good luck though, I hope the game is enjoyed by your customers and is profitable for you.

The sales pitch has worked on me. I will be intending to purchase the starter set in the future and will be purchasing the big book in a week. I was already working on an 8th army when the game was announced and it will likely take me another 9 months to finish it to the point where I am ready for my next project. I wonder if there others like me out there who will likely get the set but not for awhile? I guess what they are after is brand new players though so maybe a few vets joining in next year won't be enough? I hope GW have a bit of tactical patience and give the game the best possible chance to succeed.

Herzlos
17-07-2015, 08:49
When pigs fly.

It's not impossible for a store to sell 80 copies in a week, but they are probably dealing with mail order and selling at a pretty deep discount. IIRC Wayland had nearly 200 copies and sold a fair whack of them. I've also seen discounts going as low as 35%.

ebbwar
17-07-2015, 08:54
I'd say pretty good since a lot of kits are out of stock and bases were sold out for a few days.

Depends on which kits. If you mean old WFB kits, its possible the stock has been deliberately run down or is out of stock for a re-packaging thing. If its new kits we still can't tell if they have sold well as we do not know how many were made to start with.

Extreme Example Warning!!!

Example: If they only make 10 kits and all 10 sell, it could mean they didn't make enough as more would of sold if available or that if they made 11+ they might of still only sold 10 kits. :)

f2k
17-07-2015, 09:27
No one bought the starter sets at my LGS and the owner is furious. GW rep had promised that new gamers would replace the "old and bitter" gamers (GW rep words) in record numbers. LGS owner didn't believe him, only got a few and there they sit. The entire tabletop community here hates AoS after trying the rules and have turned to 8th/earlier editions or getting even more into Warmahordes or KoW.

Great job GW!

That kind of attitude is very telling, though not exactly surprising.

What I find worrying is that it shows a complete lack of feeling with the community (not really surprising either). Any other company, when faced with falling sales, would start wondering why they were'nt selling as much as they used to. Games Workshop simply concludes that it's the players fault.

And that attitude is at the very core of their current issues. They still think that their customers will pay any price for any product, just as long as it's by Games Workshop. And if they don't buy... Well... It's obviously their fault...


Shouldn't that thread be in General Discussion? Anyway the biggest number I've heard around here is 51 boxes sold out of 80 the day of release (they only reached 54 two days ago), this is from the biggest independent store that I know.

Personally I aimed low and didn't want to take more than 8 boxes despite my rep being very very pressing (got a phone call everyday to check if I had more preorders and wanted to add more boxes). I prefer losing sales than having unsold GW products on the shelves, especially due to the large amount of customers who were very clear they were adopting a wait and see attitude. In the end I sold everything and didn't lose sales at all. In fact it is quite alarming that interest in the product appears to be quite low now that the novelty has passed and alas I didn't see the players who were waiting to learn more about AoS come back for the boxes now that we have more info available.

That Saturday will be very important to gauge AoS staying power.


No, I assure you it won't take a year at all. Initial sales shall already impact LGS willingness to order unit boxes. If in a few weeks the game doesn't prove it has any staying power then it won't justify carrying a whole costly range of boxes, meaning that fielding the whole range will probably only be a viable option for GW stores themselves. No matter the initial sales, in less than 2 months GW will have a pretty clear picture of the success of the game.

Can you imagine the position of a store that has yet to empty its stocks of AoS, or even worse has more unsold boxes than sold ones? I assumed that GW aggressive attitude of pushing as many boxes on independent as they can at all cost and to hell with the consequences would come back to bite them sooner or later by hurting LGS trust in the product and their willingness to invest more into it. And not even one week after the release I'm pretty sure this is already happening.

Do they even have any confidence left?

Seriously, considering how Games Workshop's been behaving for years now (and anecdotes like the one above about how they view their customers), I'm honestly surprised that stores are still willing to deal with them.


Some very astute observations by someone in the know. Thank you for sharing that Archy. Good luck though, I hope the game is enjoyed by your customers and is profitable for you.

The sales pitch has worked on me. I will be intending to purchase the starter set in the future and will be purchasing the big book in a week. I was already working on an 8th army when the game was announced and it will likely take me another 9 months to finish it to the point where I am ready for my next project. I wonder if there others like me out there who will likely get the set but not for awhile? I guess what they are after is brand new players though so maybe a few vets joining in next year won't be enough? I hope GW have a bit of tactical patience and give the game the best possible chance to succeed.

I'm keeping my eye on it for the inevitable firesale.

After a while, my local store put the remaining Dreadfleet boxes for sale at 50% discount. Once Age of Sigmar reaches that I might consider it. I'm not sold on the Sigmarines, but the Chaos stuff might be worth it.

Ronin[XiC]
17-07-2015, 09:35
I have a FLGS which sells for a very hefty discount (for Germany) online. He sold about 30 copies. Noone plays the game though. People seem to have bought it for the minis, which I can understand, but not in order to play it.

vlad78
17-07-2015, 10:07
I can't say about AOS sales, but the interest for WFB on google has doubled since the release of this new game.

https://www.google.fr/trends/explore#q=age%20of%20sigmar%2C%20%2Fm%2F0mbr2%2C%2 0kings%20of%20war%2C%20%2Fm%2F043h9d%2C%20%2Fm%2F0 3mf9x&cmpt=q&tz=Etc%2FGMT-2

WFB sank to its lowest last october on google trend and is now growing to one third of 40k researchs.

WFB hasn't seen such interest since january 2012.

Now we need some time to reach proper conclusions about the success or the failure of such a game. But what is certainty lies with the fact GW did let WFB wither and die.

Rhasget
17-07-2015, 10:16
I visited my nearest store yesterday. They only ordered the minimum amount since they only stock minimum of everything GW for old customers sake. They haven't sold a box yet.
And by the looks on the local auction site, not even the minis are going for much. A friend of mine didn't even get his money back from the starter cost when selling all minis separately.
AoS in particular and GW in general has dipped in interest and sales in my whole area as of late.
Most KoW stuf was out of stock though.

Tokyo
17-07-2015, 10:25
Age of Sigmar was sold out in my FLGS, and they had quite a few.

Some people at my club also picked up sets, and they usually only play far more obscure stuff like SAGA or Frostgrave.

That said, it's mostly curiosity and the models (I think). The starter will probably sell well for that alone. It'll be a year down the line, when we'll know whether AoS kickstarted a new sustainable community or was a flash in the pan.

The_Real_Chris
17-07-2015, 10:38
GW rep had promised that new gamers would replace the "old and bitter" gamers (GW rep words) in record numbers.

Well, at least they think we are mature :)

ihavetoomuchminis
17-07-2015, 11:01
At the risk of getting warned by the moderation team, i find really strange that those most favourable to AoS report their stores to have sold out or nearly sold out, and those neutral or against AoS report really poor results.

Could somebody please explain me that?

-DE-
17-07-2015, 11:05
At the risk of getting warned by the moderation team, i find really strange that those most favourable to AoS report their stores to have sold out or nearly sold out, and those neutral or against AoS report really poor results.

Could somebody please explain me that?

*waves hand* These aren't the sockpuppets you're looking for.

Yowzo
17-07-2015, 11:06
My LGS sold 3 on release day. Has 5 more in stock.

I went to one of the biggest stores in the country on the last weekend and told me that while sales have been going slower than any other major GW release, people tend to love the game after 2-3 demo games so they're focusing on that rather than just pushing the box right away.

They have a half table setup with the box contents and they will do demos for anyone walking in, and will ask "but have you even tried it?" to anyone complaining about AoS.

Time will tell if it works, but the guy seemed impressed with the reception (ex-redshirt, pretty bitter at GW most of the time).

f2k
17-07-2015, 11:08
Well...

The obvious answer (save for outright declaring that they're lying) is that those who're positive has a community that's interested in this change. So they'll buy and they'll play. In other areas, where there's no interest, no-one will be buying and no-one will be playing.

That also fits with the anecdotal evidence that many groups seem to have been dying lately. Some areas still have a thriving community while many others don't. And once the number of players drops below the critical threshold you'll see a mass sell-out of old armies and a complete collapse of sales.

Kaptajn_Congoboy
17-07-2015, 11:22
My LGS has sold a few, but they're definitely not flying off the shelves. I don't know how the GW is doing.

ihavetoomuchminis
17-07-2015, 11:28
*waves hand* These aren't the sockpuppets you're looking for.

I didnt know the meaning of the term "sockpuppet". I've googled it. What i've read describes in a surprisingly accurate manner what may be happening in some of the forum threads since the beginning of AoS.

I've learnt a lesson today. Thanks.

Archibald_TK
17-07-2015, 12:33
Could somebody please explain me that?
Disregarding the first part of your post and just focusing on discrepancies between retailers, there is a very important thing to take into consideration when talking about the success of a game. It's whether the store offers gaming surfaces or not. I can tell you from experience that depending on that, the kind of products you can sell and their success can be total opposite between stores.

- We are a store without gaming tables, as miniatures are only one part of our business. As a result we only focus on GW, as Warmahorde, Malifaux, Infinity and consort require a living community within a shop in order to sell enough to justify their presence on the shelves. GW by contrast is known well enough and has big enough of a community to attract customers in all cases.

- Not all products even within the GW range are equal, as some will sell themselves while others will sell if you work on promoting them (I could write a post dedicated to a very specific recent army and the way it behaved in different shops as I had it confirmed by GW but that is going off-topic). AoS may end up in the category of those that require work to promote, most notably in the form of gaming in store, which is bad as unless you are one of these stores that require GW to survive, you probably want to spend your time and selling area on other more lucrative products (I won't hide that despite the large amount of money we spend in GW we see their product more as a way to attract customers in store and make our competitors life harder than as a strong brand that we would rely on).

Finally don't forget that discounts also twist sales numbers considerably. We are very attractive which makes very difficult to gauge if an item is actually successful or if it's just its high price pushing more people than usual in our arms (Thought it didn't look like it had much of an impact in the case of AoS). Same will be true for any other shop, if you try to sell a box for a ridiculous 100€/125$ pricetag you have reached a point where you'll lose customers that were interested in the product just by virtue of them trying to find cheaper retailers.

Bloodknight
17-07-2015, 12:50
(I could write a post dedicated to a very specific recent army and the way it behaved in different shops as I had it confirmed by GW but that is going off-topic)

Very interesting, though, please?

logan054
17-07-2015, 13:07
I did get 20 marauders for £21.50 inc postage, not exactly a bargain but cheaper than GW will do them loose. I could have got AoS for £52, which is about what I could get the Khorne bits for, but like someone said - its not like you get a rulebook and I'm simply not interested in the Sigmarines, even for the equivalent of about £2.

laughing with the old deals, cos Ive got 3 8th edition mini books left now, plus I could use or trade all the armies, i think there'll be a real over supply of sigmarines

I got the Khorne bits I wanted on ebay as well, I now have a unit of 40 Khorne Marauders, 6 skullreapers, a skullreaper lord and a plastic flesh hound. I think bar a box of bloodletters I've finished my Khorne army unless I decide I want to some new Khorne knights. The box was a great way to finish off my Khorne army. I might get another unit of 40 Marauders, I'll be using them for warthrone anyway ;)

Waywatching
17-07-2015, 13:33
Seems to me they might be going a lot better if anyone knew what the hell was going on.

The rules are free online, so no reason to buy for those. We've been given pdf's for the existing armies but we have no idea if that's a Ravening Horde's style holdover or just a fond farewell to the old factions. I don't see Tomb Kings plausibly still existing but it looks certain the Forest Spirits will still be going.

They've basically given us Fantasy Space Marines and a mix between Marauders and Khorne Chaos Marines and expected that to drive sales for some reason. I don't see anyone investing significantly until we actually have an idea of what factions will exist going forward, what models will still be relevant etc. Basically sales will be slow until the fans actually know what the long term plan for this thing is.

This is where GW's failure to communicate openly with players is crippling them. I get that they may not want to announce whole armies and ranges are irrelevant because they want to clear stock, but the end result is just paralyzing the customers until GW decide to answer basic questions and explain what they're doing.

HelloKitty
17-07-2015, 13:46
In our area it has been received tepidly. Only two stores that I know out of the five got it in. The tournament store where most of our tournament players play I believe it did fairly well. Our GW store sold around 14 and have boxes left over.

In contrast, Dark Vengeance was carried by all of the stores. The tournament store sold out of DV and the GW store sold out of DV. The other stores have a hard time moving GW product even though they have active groups but I remember seeing DV boxes sit for a while there.

Overall I'd say if the Dark Vengeance box is the current standard, that AoS sold about half as well here. Island of Blood did not sell very well here, and when it was released we did not have a GW store.

Humanoid
17-07-2015, 13:50
No, I assure you it won't take a year at all. Initial sales shall already impact LGS willingness to order unit boxes. If in a few weeks the game doesn't prove it has any staying power then it won't justify carrying a whole costly range of boxes, meaning that fielding the whole range will probably only be a viable option for GW stores themselves. No matter the initial sales, in less than 2 months GW will have a pretty clear picture of the success of the game.

Can you imagine the position of a store that has yet to empty its stocks of AoS, or even worse has more unsold boxes than sold ones? I assumed that GW aggressive attitude of pushing as many boxes on independent as they can at all cost and to hell with the consequences would come back to bite them sooner or later by hurting LGS trust in the product and their willingness to invest more into it. And not even one week after the release I'm pretty sure this is already happening.
My understanding from reading the forums is that GW has its product releases scheduled many, many months in advance. But what I have not read is how far away from a release date is a production run performed. I assume different time periods before a release date between a production run in the UK and one in China. If one is running a lean, mean manufacturing and distribution machine, then one tries to get as close as possible to the release date, but still have time to keep the release date in case of things like machine failure and power outage. I believe that right now that the GW execs are thinking about dialling back their production numbers for the future product releases for the Age of Sigmar because (many, many) starter boxes still sit on the warehouse and store shelves, and that dialling back could be as soon as the 25th July product release, or the Saturday after that.

Reinholt
17-07-2015, 15:14
My local store's sold one copy.

To a guy who wants to convert Stormcast to some type of Marines and who's selling the Chaos online.


80 copies of the box... In the biggest city in the US maybe?

As one of the filthy denizens of the largest city in the US, I can tell you that no store here has sold nearly that many copies of AoS, and I frequent the majority of the major gaming stores as well as the lone GW in NYC.

I would also echo Archibald's points here as well: all gaming stores are not created equal. There is very large variance in the US in terms of the performance of stores. I've lived on the west coast, in Minnesota, and in the Northeast, as well as having traveled extensively through Texas, Florida, and large parts of the mid-atlantic for my past job (where I would bring a small army and drop into gaming stores at times). The scenes vary dramatically.

In addition to the gaming space / owner's interest in pushing products points he made, which I could not agree with more, I would also raise the following:

1 - Some communities have individuals or small groups who champion certain products. You will find Warmachine uses press gangers effectively for this sometimes, but also weird pockets of things like Malifaux, Battletech, or legacy GW games like Mordheim or Blood Bowl because someone is just interested enough to run tournaments / game nights and drum up interest, and a store owner is willing to take advantage of that.

2 - There is a major inertia effect. What people played before is what they tend to play. So when communities move away from games (say, WFB) and latch onto a new game (say, Warmachine) because they were severely disenchanted, then it takes more than just fixing WFB to a level that would have kept them in the first place. Now they are deep into the new game, and pulling them back requires major effort. It's why my biggest pieces of advice for gaming companies are to build critical mass and always listen to your customers. If you don't give them a reason to leave, it makes your competitors work twice as hard to get at them.

3 - Discounting is getting increasingly significant (with regard to GW, due to their prices - more reasonably priced things like X-Wing, less so). There is a non-zero chance the majority of US sales of AoS outside of GW shops go through a small minority of web discounters due to the very high price on the initial box. If you aren't talking to Neal at the War Store, or Mini Market, or similar such outlets, you probably don't know how it sold in aggregate.

However, this will cause individual shop owners not to support it, which means communities don't form, which means games die.

As an aside, I think the two companies doing the LGS side of things the best in the US in terms of supporting communities right now are FFG and WotC (Magic is still bonkers, all these years later).

Denny
17-07-2015, 15:30
I find really strange that those most favorable to AoS report their stores to have sold out or nearly sold out, and those neutral or against AoS report really poor results.


I'm sorry, who? ;)

herohammer
17-07-2015, 16:10
I can't say about AOS sales, but the interest for WFB on google has doubled since the release of this new game.

https://www.google.fr/trends/explore#q=age%20of%20sigmar%2C%20%2Fm%2F0mbr2%2C%2 0kings%20of%20war%2C%20%2Fm%2F043h9d%2C%20%2Fm%2F0 3mf9x&cmpt=q&tz=Etc%2FGMT-2

WFB sank to its lowest last october on google trend and is now growing to one third of 40k researchs.

WFB hasn't seen such interest since january 2012.

Now we need some time to reach proper conclusions about the success or the failure of such a game. But what is certainty lies with the fact GW did let WFB wither and die.
The increase in search interest is probably more due to Total War: Warhammer than AoS

Kaptajn_Congoboy
17-07-2015, 16:52
The increase in search interest is probably more due to Total War: Warhammer than AoS

Quite likely. "Space Marine" quadrubled in traffic when Relic released their 3p shooter, for example. The computer game audience is just so gigantic it tends to drown out all miniatures gaming traffic.

vlad78
17-07-2015, 17:23
I compare WFB and AOS, the trend is the same. Total war requests would not mention age of sigmar.

My take is AOS did create some interest which does not automatically make new sales. But it is already better than how wfb fared just 6 month ago.

f2k
17-07-2015, 17:26
It created interest, yes. But is that necessarily a good thing?

The question might be: were those searches by people looking forward to Age of Sigmar or from people who were afraid their armies might be invalidated?

ihavetoomuchminis
17-07-2015, 17:46
I'm sorry, who? ;)

Well, i guess there are people who like some of the things AoS brings and some things they don't like. I like half the models, don't mind the fluff changes as long as the new one is good, and don't like at all the rules, wich are very important for me, and therefore i'm not interested in AoS right now.

Samsonov
17-07-2015, 18:12
What will be very interesting is how much the box of five stormcast eternals sells. I wonder how many people buy the starter and just leave at that (I think that literally the last two WFB products I bought were Battle of Skull Pass and Isle of Blood).

Additionally, if GW are moving towards five man boxes of large figures in the manner of Blightkings and those Khorne whip guys then sales of both those units should give some indication of how well the AoS approach will sell.

smaxx
17-07-2015, 18:58
I can't say about AOS sales, but the interest for WFB on google has doubled since the release of this new game.

https://www.google.fr/trends/explore#q=age%20of%20sigmar%2C%20%2Fm%2F0mbr2%2C%2 0kings%20of%20war%2C%20%2Fm%2F043h9d%2C%20%2Fm%2F0 3mf9x&cmpt=q&tz=Etc%2FGMT-2

WFB sank to its lowest last october on google trend and is now growing to one third of 40k researchs.

WFB hasn't seen such interest since january 2012.

Now we need some time to reach proper conclusions about the success or the failure of such a game. But what is certainty lies with the fact GW did let WFB wither and die.
Of course it interested most of the current Warhammer players, and some 40k players also. But I've allready lost my interest in it and won't buy anything from GW anymore. It was interesting until it was found out to be really nothing for Warhammer players, but instead a kids first 40k. 40k players are interested in it, as they fear that something equally awful would happen to 40k.

brotherAkkyshan
17-07-2015, 19:09
Purely anecdotal I know... My LFGS posted a photo on their Facebook page last week previewing the fact they were opening at midnight for the AoS release. They had maybe nine or ten boxes on display (as well as the ropey looking balloons!). They posted a photo this afternoon showing the same display stand with the new MtG releases (whatever they may be)... Pretty much the same number of AoS boxes relegated to the shelf below. My local GW stores Facebook page is still trying to hawk the 'free, limited time goodies' they were giving away on release day! Take from that what you will.

Whirlwind
17-07-2015, 19:18
At the risk of getting warned by the moderation team, i find really strange that those most favourable to AoS report their stores to have sold out or nearly sold out, and those neutral or against AoS report really poor results.

Could somebody please explain me that?

You also have to consider the natural bias of the community in supporting / not supporting the game. If you enjoy AoS then you will more likely go to a store that encourages it, has players of similar mind and hence is likely to sell better overall. Whereas if you are neutral or don't like it, you probably head to the store that supports more your game of preference, has players of similar mind and hence sales of AoS there are likely to be worse overall. This situation naturally re-enforces itself. Add onto this the already discussed discounting and it's not really possible to tell how well the game is doing from a basic head count. You can perhaps compare individual shop sales to other similar releases DV,IoB but this is still likely to have significant biases within it (the community changes etc; different games available). Only GW are likely to know the true picture in a few months but any effects are not likely to be seen for at least six months after that (for example if we see 40k and HH being ramped up in production compared to AoS late next year then you may be able to surmise that AoS has failed (and vice versa).

itcamefromthedeep
17-07-2015, 20:30
I'm sorry, who? ;)
I think I'm iin that camp.

I don't have numbers t report. I just don't know right now.

SimaoSegunda
18-07-2015, 00:09
My FLGS has a thriving 40k / x-wing scene, with usually only 3-4 active WFB players over the last couple of years (wargaming is not their main line, they are much more of a MTG / board game store). They were open for a Magic pre-release when AoS dropped, so they were able to sell at midnight, and I know they shifted a few copies. They also had a demo day on the Saturday, and sold a few more copies... I think around the 8-10 Mark. There were a few other players who haven't got the starter as the rules were free online and they didn't want to play WoC / sigmarines, but have picked up the game. This week's wargaming night was the first time in ages there have been fantasy games going on on multiple tables. It all seems cautiously positive so far, there is a buzz about Fantasy in the store that hasn't been there before.

Denny
18-07-2015, 06:44
I think I'm in that camp.

I don't have numbers t report. I just don't know right now.

So am I and, likewise, I don't have numbers to report.:)
So the people who hate AoS are finding evidence it is underselling, those pro AoS are finding evidence it is doing well, and us filthy neutrals* have no strong feelings either way.

How unexpected.

*What makes a man turn neutral? Lust for gold? Power? Or were you just born with a heart full of neutrality?

Sothron
18-07-2015, 06:57
I can't say about AOS sales, but the interest for WFB on google has doubled since the release of this new game.

https://www.google.fr/trends/explore#q=age%20of%20sigmar%2C%20%2Fm%2F0mbr2%2C%2 0kings%20of%20war%2C%20%2Fm%2F043h9d%2C%20%2Fm%2F0 3mf9x&cmpt=q&tz=Etc%2FGMT-2

WFB sank to its lowest last october on google trend and is now growing to one third of 40k researchs.

WFB hasn't seen such interest since january 2012.

Now we need some time to reach proper conclusions about the success or the failure of such a game. But what is certainty lies with the fact GW did let WFB wither and die.

Here's hoping this turns into GW's version of "New Coke" and when they realize their idiotic decision they will bring back true WHFB 9th edition to time with Total War: Warhammer release which will generate a lot of buzz on the product.

Zywus
18-07-2015, 13:03
Here's hoping this turns into GW's version of "New Coke" and when they realize their idiotic decision they will bring back true WHFB 9th edition to time with Total War: Warhammer release which will generate a lot of buzz on the product.
Unfortunally for GW if that were to be the case; it's much harder to pull people back in than it is to keep them. And the AoS debacle seems to have pushed a lot of people over the edge, nudging them to other systems or out of the hobby alltogether.

logan054
18-07-2015, 13:19
Here's hoping this turns into GW's version of "New Coke" and when they realize their idiotic decision they will bring back true WHFB 9th edition to time with Total War: Warhammer release which will generate a lot of buzz on the product.

I doubt the start set will be the new coke of warhammer, the chaos models are really nice. It will be interesting to see once people have the shiny models how well the game as a whole does. I really think once the "oooo, shinny wears off it will tank

vlad78
18-07-2015, 13:32
Here's hoping this turns into GW's version of "New Coke" and when they realize their idiotic decision they will bring back true WHFB 9th edition to time with Total War: Warhammer release which will generate a lot of buzz on the product.

Unfortunately everything which went wrong in AOS was already in WFB previous edition.

Avian
18-07-2015, 13:50
Unfortunately everything which went wrong in AOS was already in WFB previous edition.

What, you mean the names of a few of the characters?

Whirlwind
18-07-2015, 14:43
Might have the first sign from GW today that AoS hasn't sold as well as GW hoped. They are re-advertising the AoS boxed set in the What's New Today section (and it is just added on without any real reference to it). This is a rare occurrence for GW; the last time this happened was with Assassinorum game when they had a separate day a few weeks later to re-advertise it. It is supposition but if it was selling well there might be less reason to re-advertise?

vlad78
18-07-2015, 20:31
What, you mean the names of a few of the characters?

No, the way the rules were going, GW emphasizing more and more over the high fantasy side of things, some miniatures made available by the competition weren't sold by GW or weren't in codicies anymore...

Turning back from AOS would require a total shake down of GW in my opinion. It would require to change most things they believe in. I'm not sure they can do that. I'm not sure a new WFB designed by the same who made aOS could still be warhammer and not a parody. I'm not sure GW is ready to become a miniature company AND a game company once again.

But that's off topic.

vlad78
18-07-2015, 20:32
Might have the first sign from GW today that AoS hasn't sold as well as GW hoped. They are re-advertising the AoS boxed set in the What's New Today section (and it is just added on without any real reference to it). This is a rare occurrence for GW; the last time this happened was with Assassinorum game when they had a separate day a few weeks later to re-advertise it. It is supposition but if it was selling well there might be less reason to re-advertise?

If one advert doesn't work, 20000 have a better chance. ;p

Havarel
18-07-2015, 20:41
Not really more than anecdotal evidence, but someone selling the Khorne models on Ebay has sold 50 copies of the Lord.

Avian
18-07-2015, 20:43
So *that's* how some stores sold eighty or ninety boxes. ;)

Flipmode
18-07-2015, 20:52
Sorry if already covered... But the free online release makes sales comparisons in store with other GW starter sets less valuable.

Avian
18-07-2015, 20:56
No, but if retailers find that these boxes are difficult to shift, then that is worrisome in and of itself.

Cergorach
18-07-2015, 21:05
I bought five AoS boxed sets on preorder, this is less then I preorderd for Black Reach, Island of Blood, and Dark Vengeance (I did around 20 for each on preorder). There are a couple of reasons why I only bought five boxed sets for myself:

#1 Rules for AoS are free online and they are only four pages long. With each previous edition everyone wanted a small rulebook as a cheap way to get into the new edition.

#2 AoS is something new, so it's a risk. I am not going to risk getting stuck with 15 boxes of AoS that I can't use.

#3 Previous WFB/40k editions required more minis then you got in the boxed set. WFB 8E didn't play well with 2x20 Skaven Clanrats, in 40k one Tactical squad isn't a legal formation. So folks wanting more of the core boxed set wasn't strange. I sold a crapton of core units to new players and a ton of heroes/special units to folks that already have that army and don't want to buy the whole boxed set for 2-3 minis.

#4 Completely new army (Sigmarites). We don't know enough of it to declare it a hit or miss yet, many folks are in a holding pattern regarding Sigmarites.

#5 Most WFB 8E fans hate AoS. That means that all my previous contacts won't be buying Sigmarites for use with AoS, they might buy the Khornites for use with WFB 8E. Leaving me with a LOT of Sigmarites.

#6 Haven't got much of a clue what most is worth pre release, so figuring out what would be sold at what price was difficult. As more units from the starter set get released (with more options) folks have a reference for prices. €13 for 5 Sigmarites sounds like a lot, until you realize a 5 pack costs €40 at retail.

=============

As for others, many folks bought the previous starters for the rulebook and traded one or both of the starter armies away. These customers won't bother with the AoS boxed set.

I see may FLGS/GWstore patrons (WFB 8E players) who hate it, but older players that stopped with 7E/8E or earlier who really like AoS. Those folks that moved on from GW shenanigans to PP shenanigans and by now have moved to more 'fringe' products. Those folks generally don't visit the FLGS/GWstore, as they don't cater to these gamers, so they often buy online. I myself for example haven't bought at a FLGS for ~15 years or so, in those 15 years I've only bought the first edition Apocalypse rules at the GW store and maybe a few paint pots (for a while I worked just across from a GW store).

I have no idea how well webstores did compared to FLGS/GWstores, but I suspect a lot better. A 20-30% discount on a €100/$125 makes a huge difference.

What i do know is that with the release of AoS I've bought more new Warhammer Fantasy since a year or two. The new Khore 'nuts' and a Chaos Warshrine. I suspect another set of Khorne 'nuts', three boxes of Khorne Knights on those deamon mounts, some Blight Kings, a few plastic Chaos heroes, maybe some Khorne/Nurgle beasts, and probably all Sigmarite mini releases. Rumours of big changes have been around for a while, so I've been very slow in acquiring more WF (with the exception of a few very good second hand deals). What I want to know is how much WF has been sold with the release of the free rules? (and not just AoS starters)

Saying AoS is doing bad or good is far to early to say imho, look at it in a year or two to make that distinction based on the GW year results (if GW discloses any specifics of AoS vs 40k).

As for the GW sales department... If your store owner doesn't understand that these guys need to sell as much as possible and shouldn't be trusted at face value, your store owner is in the wrong line of business. Sure the sales people at GW are the worst in the miniatures industry, mostly due to the other companies not having a large enough revenue stream to employ a large staff of sales personnel. When I talk with Microsoft sales people, I have a large truck with salt on standby. When I have a sales agent for an advertisement company on the line, my instinct is to hang up, but I'm far to polite for that to do that right away... It's GW sales job to sell to the retailer and it's the retailers job to sell it's own stock. If the retailer doesn't understand it's own customer base and listens to the GW sales team you bet your behind that it's a crap shoot on whether those things sell or not. I've run a webshop myself for a few years (never GW products because those weren't profitable when you could order those below wholesale from the UK) and with the rumours running around and the reactions of the current fans of WFB 8E I wouldn't have bought much beyond the preorders either. If I sell out before a restock, that's a shame, but indeed better then having a pallet of unsold AoS standing around doing nothing but collecting dust. Even at wholesale those boxes aren't cheap! But being a retailer is also about taking risk and not pointing the finger at the wholesaler...

Hoffa
18-07-2015, 22:10
Well, day after release my flgs who also does mailorder had 76 starters in stock. As of now they have 71. If I understand Archibald correctly this is a disaster. As for the 264p book released this morning theyhave sold a total of 1 and have 13 left in stock.

itcamefromthedeep
18-07-2015, 22:38
#1 Rules for AoS are free online and they are only four pages long. With each previous edition everyone wanted a small rulebook as a cheap way to get into the new edition.Not an insignificant factor. I won't be buying any AoS product, and this is why so far.

I can play the game without anything in that product.

Vazalaar
18-07-2015, 22:49
AoS failed.

The bearded one
18-07-2015, 22:50
Not an insignificant factor. I won't be buying any AoS product, and this is why so far.

I can play the game without anything in that product.

It's definitely a fair point; the startersets for fantasy and 40k provided the small rulebook, which was coveted by both new players and veterans alike. There was essentially nothing in the AoS box that I wanted very badly; I just bought it because I found some of the new sigmarines (not even all of them) very funky. The startersets usually also provided new cool plastic units that were cool for players of those armies to add to their collection (some of which weren't available in plastic outside of the starterbox - eg. ellyrian, reavers, swordmasters, skaven weapon teams etc.) As for the AoS box only existing chaos players might be interested in some of the chaos side, but noone has an existing Sigmarine army to add these to.

Though by the same token I suppose it means the succes of the AoS starterset isn't representative of the succes of AoS. Not that it's a good sign though.

Cergorach
18-07-2015, 23:39
Though by the same token I suppose it means the succes of the AoS starterset isn't representative of the succes of AoS. Not that it's a good sign though.
We don't even know what the strategy of GW will be. Will they release a two player campaign/starter set ever three, six or twelve months and then a bunch of supporting releases? Or is this it for the next 2-4 years as a starter set for AoS? I certainly didn't expect it to do as well as IoB and certainly not as well as Dark Vengeance! To much hate and hyperventilating going on for that from the current batch of WFB 8E fans.

The only thing I can compare it with is Apple with their OSX release for x86 computers, previous Apple/OSX fans were furious. If you ask an average Apple OSX user about PowerPC today, they look at you funny, that's 7-14 years ago (first release x86 vs. last release PowerPC).

PS. note to self: Edgar has a huge beard ;-)

@Vazalaar: How can you say that if we don't even know what the goal is of AoS? What does GW view as a success and what as a failure? Is it a failure for the current batch of WHF players? Sure it is, but GW aims for a retention period of two years. In two years most of the WFB 8E fans will be gone and (hopefully) replaced by AoS fans. Sure, there will be some WFB 8E hardcore fans, but there are also some hardcore WFB 3E fans out there. They are just not significant to GW as a customer group.

Avian
19-07-2015, 00:00
If you are talking about starter sets with nothing but *original* models, they put out new ones about every 4 years. I can't see them increasing that rate, given how much more expensive the normal boxes are - if starter boxes came out each year (or even more frequently), sales of unit boxes would be very, very low.

I can imagine bundles where each side gets one unique character model, and the rest is existing models that have already been out for some years. Something like that could happen once per year, I guess.

Maccwar
19-07-2015, 00:09
AoS failed.

Even as someone who is labelled as a GW detractor I think it is way too early to say whether AoS will succeed or fail from a commercial point of view.

sorberec
19-07-2015, 08:29
Even as someone who is labelled as a GW detractor I think it is way too early to say whether AoS will succeed or fail from a commercial point of view.

I agree it's too early to tell. I think a lot of people are adopting a "wait and see" stance before getting invested (whether in terms of buying the new stuff or just spending time getting up to speed with the new game and getting some test games in) in playing the new game

At the moment I've no idea if I want to play AoS on a long term basis but I'm leaning more towards carrying on with 8th or going Kings of War. From the sole game I've had so far, if I did want to play AoS, I'd be inclined to leave it until 2nd edition when GW hopefully sort out the things that should have done before releasing this (e.g. not requiring you to pile models on top of each other in the combat phase, giving us an army construction system etc)

If this had been 9th edition I'd probably have bought the starter set regardless for the small rulebook and maybe started a small army of one of the factions in the box.

Vazalaar
19-07-2015, 10:32
Even as someone who is labelled as a GW detractor I think it is way too early to say whether AoS will succeed or fail from a commercial point of view.

Well, I am often labelled as a GW fan;).

I really can't see this turning in a succes even in comparison with 8th ed. sales and certainly not in comparison with End Times sales.

I think my FLGS had on release day 16 or so boxes, 8 pre-ordered and one those pre-orders was mine.

I do like the mini's, don't mind the fluff changes and slightly dislike the rules and I am not so bothered by GW prices and even I didn't buy anthing after the starterset.
With 8th edition I bought the limited rulebook, lots of armybooks, SoM, all End Times books.... I don't have the urge to buy the AoS book released yesterday.

My initial hype for AoS is disappearing and we are only a little more than a week after the start of AoS.

GW ****** this up.

The_Real_Chris
19-07-2015, 10:56
On the other hand we get to find out directly the strength of the GW sales method. I believe they sell largely through their stores attracting passing trade (now in wrong locations) and network effect of existing gaming communities (now much diminished). Let's see how they do cold...

MarcoSkoll
20-07-2015, 11:54
Though by the same token I suppose it means the succes of the AoS starterset isn't representative of the succes of AoS. Not that it's a good sign though.
That is an interesting point though. As GW is (on some level, at least) trying a free rules model, the AoS starter set theoretically doesn't actually have to sell a single box at this stage. If those rules are promoting sales of pre-existing boxes, it would be doing its job quite well. And to be fair, there's only so many people who'll want to up roots and completely change their collections at this stage. That's particularly true if they're apprehensive about the future of AoS, because most of the old boxes will at remain viable for whichever Oldhammer editions people latch-on to.

I will however be a little cynical and remember that despite Corvus Belli having used the free rules model for years, their recent Icestorm box and 3rd edition rulebook nonetheless sold like hotcakes. (They originally planned a production run of 5000 boxes for Icestorm, with the expectation that would last several months to a year... which they quickly discovered wouldn't even cover their pre-orders, which were to the tune of ~8400 boxes.)

Poncho160
20-07-2015, 12:03
That is an interesting point though. As GW is (on some level, at least) trying a free rules model, the AoS starter set theoretically doesn't actually have to sell a single box at this stage. If those rules are promoting sales of pre-existing boxes, it would be doing its job quite well. And to be fair, there's only so many people who'll want to up roots and completely change their collections at this stage. That's particularly true if they're apprehensive about the future of AoS, because most of the old boxes will at remain viable for whichever Oldhammer editions people latch-on to.

I will however be a little cynical and remember that despite Corvus Belli having used the free rules model for years, their recent Icestorm box and 3rd edition rulebook nonetheless sold like hotcakes. (They originally planned a production run of 5000 boxes for Icestorm, with the expectation that would last several months to a year... which they quickly discovered wouldn't even cover their pre-orders, which were to the tune of ~8400 boxes.)

Really, that many boxes were sold as preorders? So wish I knew someone who played Infinity :(

Herzlos
20-07-2015, 13:16
Presumably there were more pre-orders than that. They announced pretty early (2 months? 3?) they they didn't have enough ordered to handle the pre-orders at that stage.

Avian
20-07-2015, 13:25
That is an interesting point though. As GW is (on some level, at least) trying a free rules model, the AoS starter set theoretically doesn't actually have to sell a single box at this stage.
Well, money is money, and strictly speaking if you put $X into producing models during a year and you earn $X * [whatever margin you feel is appropriate], you'll be happy, regardless of what you earned that money from.

You sometimes see people talking about how Box Set Y "has not earned its money back yet", and thus would not be up for a replacement yet, or whatever. That is nonsense, of course, but on the other hand I don't think anyone would call the AoS box a success if the free rules got people to go out and buy loads more other kits and nobody bought the big box. Overall you have achieved success, but that particular kit has not, and that might affect how other starter kits are made in the future.

Poncho160
20-07-2015, 13:29
Well, money is money, and strictly speaking if you put $X into producing models during a year and you earn $X * [whatever margin you feel is appropriate], you'll be happy, regardless of what you earned that money from.

You sometimes see people talking about how Box Set Y "has not earned its money back yet", and thus would not be up for a replacement yet, or whatever. That is nonsense, of course, but on the other hand I don't think anyone would call the AoS box a success if the free rules got people to go out and buy loads more other kits and nobody bought the big box. Overall you have achieved success, but that particular kit has not, and that might affect how other starter kits are made in the future.

I think Mordheim, Necromunda and GorkaMorka fell foul of that kind of reasoning. The amount of fanatsy and 40k kits sold to kitbash models for them three games must have been quite high, but GW only saw the sales, not what they were being used for, so they dropped all three games.

MarcoSkoll
20-07-2015, 16:07
Really, that many boxes were sold as preorders? So wish I knew someone who played Infinity :(
Those were the figures I heard. They ended up having to work weekends and delay the next month's releases to catch up, even without counting the copies to go on store shelves.


on the other hand I don't think anyone would call the AoS box a success if the free rules got people to go out and buy loads more other kits and nobody bought the big box.
A fair point, but I think the important point is not the success of the AoS box, but of AoS in general; That's going to be the make-or-break here.

And to be honest, if GW did buck some of their ideas up about what people actually want out of their starter boxes, it would not be a bad thing. If they take away the right lessons, they might either realise that their customers do see them as a gaming company or actually properly commit to being a miniature company, rather than this wishwashy cobblers they sprout in their annual reports.


I think Mordheim, Necromunda and GorkaMorka fell foul of that kind of reasoning. The amount of fanatsy and 40k kits sold to kitbash models for them three games must have been quite high, but GW only saw the sales, not what they were being used for, so they dropped all three games.
Inquisitor too, given that even before the withdrawal of the 54mm range, the 28mm variety had rather overtaken it in popularity. (Although, to be fair, the loss of the Necromunda ranges stung the 28mm players more than the 54mm range disappearing - stuff like the Escher range was a particularly strong source of good female miniatures).

itcamefromthedeep
20-07-2015, 17:31
Indeterminate results. Some boxes sold in my area, many sit on the shelf. Not a complete dud, but definitely not flying of the shelves like the Dark Rider box that the store could not keep in stock for a good six months after the Dark Elf release, or the skitarii minis.

Some people in my area like the minis. There isn't a lot of the game being played. Some activity, but nothing dramatic.

Le Monkey Face
20-07-2015, 19:29
Dreadfleet apparently sold very well initially and we all know how that turned out. Even if it sold well its not an indication of its long term future.

Kegslayer
20-07-2015, 19:57
Well, I am often labelled as a GW fan;).

I really can't see this turning in a succes even in comparison with 8th ed. sales and certainly not in comparison with End Times sales.

I think my FLGS had on release day 16 or so boxes, 8 pre-ordered and one those pre-orders was mine.

I do like the mini's, don't mind the fluff changes and slightly dislike the rules and I am not so bothered by GW prices and even I didn't buy anthing after the starterset.
With 8th edition I bought the limited rulebook, lots of armybooks, SoM, all End Times books.... I don't have the urge to buy the AoS book released yesterday.

My initial hype for AoS is disappearing and we are only a little more than a week after the start of AoS.

GW ****** this up.


In my area due to AoS fantasy has had total rejuvenation. Boxes have been flying off the shelves as soon as they get put back on so AoS has been a huge success in that way

Hoffa
20-07-2015, 20:50
And this area is?

Avatar of the Eldar
20-07-2015, 21:01
And this area is?

Fantasyland!

(I keed, I keed. It was an opportunity joke!)

logan054
20-07-2015, 21:06
I don't know if this sums it up but in my new local the manager was suggesting that paint brush make alternates for makeup brushes. Surprisingly he didn't even mention AoS.


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samael
20-07-2015, 22:52
My two local shops informed me that they have sold 2 and 3 boxes respectively. They also informed me that the people that played fantasy aren't interested at all and that the 40k players in general tell them that they already PLAY 40k so thanks but no thanks. Basically the boxes that got sold where bought as bitsources for 40k spacemarines conversions.

Vulgarsty
20-07-2015, 23:43
And this area is?

Tom Kirby's house...

plantagenet
21-07-2015, 12:57
I wonder how AOS sale numbers compare to escape from goblin town sale numbers.

As we now know this game failed to achieve the critical mass it needed to survive as an ongoing entity

Herzlos
21-07-2015, 13:24
I suspect it'll sell better than Goblin Town. Purely because the box is better for splitting (I mean, who'd want to take the Goblins?) and better for parts (it's all usable in 40K with minimal work). Goblin Town has cool scenery, but not enough to actually play using, and you'll only ever need one band of dwarves.

ebbwar
21-07-2015, 14:28
Tom Kirby's house...

When does that terrain kit come out? ;)

Griefbringer
21-07-2015, 15:53
Fantasyland!


Fantasyland is no more.

Welcome to the Sigmarland instead.

Col.Gravis
21-07-2015, 15:59
Sold as many here as we did 40k Starters, locally take up of the new game seems to be good.

TheFang
21-07-2015, 17:32
Sold as many here as we did 40k Starters, locally take up of the new game seems to be good.

How much of a discount were you giving? Ebay's already hitting £60 with free postage for the AoS starter which implies a fairly low demand.

logan054
21-07-2015, 17:39
When does that terrain kit come out? ;)

I thought that was the castle? Perhaps hes getting a new one with lots of hammers on it. Warhammer is about lots of hammers now. I wonder if khorne will adopt hammers...


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MiyamatoMusashi
21-07-2015, 17:42
When does that terrain kit come out? ;)

Not sure, it's been rumoured for a while.

217493

ebbwar
21-07-2015, 19:34
I thought that was the castle? Perhaps hes getting a new one with lots of hammers on it. Warhammer is about lots of hammers now. I wonder if khorne will adopt hammers...

You forgot the moat to help keep customers out... ;)


Not sure, it's been rumoured for a while.

217493

Needz. Moar. Skullz.

Kyriakin
21-07-2015, 19:46
Sold as many here as we did 40k Starters, locally take up of the new game seems to be good.
To be honest, in Mid Devon there isn't much else to do...

Col.Gravis
22-07-2015, 08:13
How much of a discount were you giving? Ebay's already hitting £60 with free postage for the AoS starter which implies a fairly low demand.

Almost exactly half were our pre-release offer of £59.99 on the Saturday and Sunday they first went up for pre-order, the other half at 10% subsequently.

Also I wouldn't read too much into eBay (some of that is undoubtedly stores which got talked into overstocking in order to hit the different releases packages and are now panic selling - theres a lesson to know your customer base), given that the 40k starter hovers around the same price mark and has for some time.


To be honest, in Mid Devon there isn't much else to do...

Harsh lol, not entirely untrue when the weathers off, but harsh when we've had a lovely weeks weather so far!

ebbwar
22-07-2015, 09:10
Harsh lol, not entirely untrue when the weathers off, but harsh when we've had a lovely weeks weather so far!

Send some of that lovely weather oop north lad! ;)

TheFang
22-07-2015, 09:31
Also I wouldn't read too much into eBay (some of that is undoubtedly stores which got talked into overstocking in order to hit the different releases packages and are now panic selling - theres a lesson to know your customer base), given that the 40k starter hovers around the same price mark and has for some time.

Seems like there's a lot of over ordering been going on or there's a lower demand than most anticipated.

Sureshot05
22-07-2015, 11:13
Spoke with the local games store in Cardiff, demand is reasonable. Nothing to get excited about, but definitely not the failure that some others are seeing. They are still selling now, which indicates that some are enjoying now the rules have dropped.

Aldhick
22-07-2015, 12:09
Here in Czech Republic we are quite small gaming community compared to other countries. In this community I'm aware about one AoS box, that was used as wrapper for some 8th. ed. modesl bought on UK ebay.

Kyriakin
22-07-2015, 14:18
Harsh lol, not entirely untrue when the weathers off, but harsh when we've had a lovely weeks weather so far!
BTW I am a Tivvy lad so I can say that...

Col.Gravis
22-07-2015, 14:53
BTW I am a Tivvy lad so I can say that...

My condolences... I'm from Crediton so I can say that! ;)


Seems like there's a lot of over ordering been going on or there's a lower demand than most anticipated.

Its both IMHO. GW were pushing heavily on this with some significant benefits for LGS that stocks higher quantities leading to over ordering as I don't doubt that many caved anticipating high sales given its a new edition of a flagship product - normally reasonable from a retailers perspective I'd say, but this is a whole new beast. The fact the rules are free online make the set redundant unless you want those particular models.

I've got high hopes for AoS personally, most people locally are at worst pleasantly surprised when they play it, but for the afore mentioned reason I don't think sales of the boxed game are going to give a true picture of the success of AoS - positively or negatively.

madden
22-07-2015, 19:14
Dont know about the box set (ive bought one and a couple of others have as well that i know of) but the fantasy section of my local gw looks like it got the pox with gaps in the display which ive not seen in a long time so kits are selling . Also theres aos games being played on saturdays now where fantasy never was so id say its sparked intrest again, wether it keeps going who knows i hope so as my fantasy armies can finally be used.
Yes i like it as do others i know.

Templar Ben
22-07-2015, 19:58
I'd say pretty good since a lot of kits are out of stock and bases were sold out for a few days.

But then how many were available? Being out of bases should be the type of thing that concerns people because a generic item that works across systems should never be out of stock.


My local store sold 10 on the releaseday, plus a couple of preorders. With Islands of blood or Dark Vengeance it was usually 3 or 4 times that count.

I bought one at my local GW. She was trying to sell four boxes and I bought the fourth.
1) It was only $125.
2) She is really cute.
3) I got a free Khorne moisture wicking shirt.
4) I am going to likely make custodes out of the Sigmarines and sell the Khorne guys.


All you're going to get is anecdotes from both sides. You're just going to have to wait for sales numbers.

We will never get sales numbers. I mean sure we will get total sales in the annual report but they will not say AoS sold X units which is a Y increase/decrease over WFB 8th edition.


Shouldn't that thread be in General Discussion? Anyway the biggest number I've heard around here is 51 boxes sold out of 80 the day of release (they only reached 54 two days ago), this is from the biggest independent store that I know.

Personally I aimed low and didn't want to take more than 8 boxes despite my rep being very very pressing (got a phone call everyday to check if I had more preorders and wanted to add more boxes). I prefer losing sales than having unsold GW products on the shelves, especially due to the large amount of customers who were very clear they were adopting a wait and see attitude. In the end I sold everything and didn't lose sales at all. In fact it is quite alarming that interest in the product appears to be quite low now that the novelty has passed and alas I didn't see the players who were waiting to learn more about AoS come back for the boxes now that we have more info available.

That Saturday will be very important to gauge AoS staying power.


No, I assure you it won't take a year at all. Initial sales shall already impact LGS willingness to order unit boxes. If in a few weeks the game doesn't prove it has any staying power then it won't justify carrying a whole costly range of boxes, meaning that fielding the whole range will probably only be a viable option for GW stores themselves. No matter the initial sales, in less than 2 months GW will have a pretty clear picture of the success of the game.

Can you imagine the position of a store that has yet to empty its stocks of AoS, or even worse has more unsold boxes than sold ones? I assumed that GW aggressive attitude of pushing as many boxes on independent as they can at all cost and to hell with the consequences would come back to bite them sooner or later by hurting LGS trust in the product and their willingness to invest more into it. And not even one week after the release I'm pretty sure this is already happening.

Was that Neil from the Warstore? I think it would be beneficial to many if you would start a thread on what it is like working with GW as a FLGS. I know that I would truly appreciate that.


At the risk of getting warned by the moderation team, i find really strange that those most favourable to AoS report their stores to have sold out or nearly sold out, and those neutral or against AoS report really poor results.

Could somebody please explain me that?

Selection bias.


Dont know about the box set (ive bought one and a couple of others have as well that i know of) but the fantasy section of my local gw looks like it got the pox with gaps in the display which ive not seen in a long time so kits are selling . Also theres aos games being played on saturdays now where fantasy never was so id say its sparked intrest again, wether it keeps going who knows i hope so as my fantasy armies can finally be used.
Yes i like it as do others i know.

Have you seen gamers or just noticing holes? I ask because that could be as simple as someone new to the area seeing a bunch of OOP models on sale for the origional list price from 2001 and so snatched them up. I did something similar by picking up a great number of Pretorian IG guys. Heavy weapon teams were like $4.50 so I bought all that he had.

logan054
22-07-2015, 20:12
Not sure, it's been rumoured for a while.

217493

Needs more hammers, this is age of sigmar ;)


You forgot the moat to help keep customers out... ;)

I think maybe a ivory tower as well



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Griefbringer
22-07-2015, 20:22
Have you seen gamers or just noticing holes? I ask because that could be as simple as someone new to the area seeing a bunch of OOP models on sale for the origional list price from 2001 and so snatched them up.

I somehow doubt you would find these sorts of classics in GW store, which is what Madden was talking about. Indie stores of course can have all sorts of interesting old stuff around.

Another case could be 8th edition players figuring out that some of the plastics they need to complete their collections are risking being discontinued, and thus panic buying to complete their collections. Condidering the current GW publicity policies, they are not likely to give much of an advance warning before they will stop producing a certain kit.

madden
22-07-2015, 21:10
Could be griefbringer but its only this past week or so that the holes have appered and it is actuall games being played as ive done a few myself and the store keeps stock up to standard on the shelves.(well it is a gw). As i and others have said its sparked intrest in the whole fantasy side wether its just the box doing it or picking up whats missing who knows and were unlikely to ever find out that level of detail.

Whirlwind
22-07-2015, 23:19
My condolences... I'm from Crediton so I can say that! ;)



Its both IMHO. GW were pushing heavily on this with some significant benefits for LGS that stocks higher quantities leading to over ordering as I don't doubt that many caved anticipating high sales given its a new edition of a flagship product - normally reasonable from a retailers perspective I'd say, but this is a whole new beast. The fact the rules are free online make the set redundant unless you want those particular models.

I've got high hopes for AoS personally, most people locally are at worst pleasantly surprised when they play it, but for the afore mentioned reason I don't think sales of the boxed game are going to give a true picture of the success of AoS - positively or negatively.

In the end it's going to be the long term sales that make or break the game. The game can be fun in a beer and pretzels type of way but after playing the game several times I'm getting slightly bored of it. It basically comes down to the same thing each game which from turn two is generally just a few combats and lots of dice rolling. Hence I'm more pessimistic, I don't think it has the longevity to succeed hugely and that will depress future sales (after all you only have to buy one box set and you are set). All the current armies play the same even the new ones in reality hence you can box the game and pull it out once in a while and still have fun, but you don't have to keep buying the models long term.

Templar Ben
23-07-2015, 20:14
Could be griefbringer but its only this past week or so that the holes have appered and it is actuall games being played as ive done a few myself and the store keeps stock up to standard on the shelves.(well it is a gw). As i and others have said its sparked intrest in the whole fantasy side wether its just the box doing it or picking up whats missing who knows and were unlikely to ever find out that level of detail.


I somehow doubt you would find these sorts of classics in GW store, which is what Madden was talking about. Indie stores of course can have all sorts of interesting old stuff around.

Another case could be 8th edition players figuring out that some of the plastics they need to complete their collections are risking being discontinued, and thus panic buying to complete their collections. Condidering the current GW publicity policies, they are not likely to give much of an advance warning before they will stop producing a certain kit.

I am sorry I missed this was a GW store. My own bias of living in the US keeps me from thinking of a GW branded store first. I was just saying that I had caused strange holes to appear before and it was simply happenstance.


In the end it's going to be the long term sales that make or break the game. The game can be fun in a beer and pretzels type of way but after playing the game several times I'm getting slightly bored of it. It basically comes down to the same thing each game which from turn two is generally just a few combats and lots of dice rolling. Hence I'm more pessimistic, I don't think it has the longevity to succeed hugely and that will depress future sales (after all you only have to buy one box set and you are set). All the current armies play the same even the new ones in reality hence you can box the game and pull it out once in a while and still have fun, but you don't have to keep buying the models long term.

Is the game any different when running Vampire Counts, or Dwarves, or Empire? I am truly curious because that would be an interesting turn of events.

Whirlwind
23-07-2015, 21:33
I am sorry I missed this was a GW store. My own bias of living in the US keeps me from thinking of a GW branded store first. I was just saying that I had caused strange holes to appear before and it was simply happenstance.



Is the game any different when running Vampire Counts, or Dwarves, or Empire? I am truly curious because that would be an interesting turn of events.

Not in any major way. Assuming you ignore summoning (which most seem to view as a broken mechanism) then the different abilities are 'much of a muchness' when it comes down to it. Take Empire Handgunners/Thunderers for example. They have two sets of different rules but when you look at them in detail and actually play them they are pretty much the same. Hence most armies play the same especially when the armies are 'balanced'. There are some differences (e.g. VC have no shooting to speak of, but more, mainly summoning magic). However if both Dwarfs and VCs took a combat based army in my view you could swap the models around with the rules and you wouldn't see that much difference in how they play. It is difficult to explain I would recommend you try and get some games in to see how it flows and what I am trying to explain (poorly).

Lord Dan
24-07-2015, 02:05
If the plethora of issues outlined elsewhere don't cause its demise, I suspect that the sheer volume of people "waiting to see what happens", and therefore not actually playing the game, will ultimately result in the game's collapse.

English 2000
24-07-2015, 02:22
If the plethora of issues outlined elsewhere don't cause its demise, I suspect that the sheer volume of people "waiting to see what happens", and therefore not actually playing the game, will ultimately result in the game's collapse.
That and the number of people now actively exploring alternatives like Kings of War. If those people end up finding a system they really like, it will be hard for GW to win them back over.

I started playing X-Wing in January because of all the uncertainty. All of my hobby dollars went to FFG (aside from a few paints).

I am activity trying to build a community of people playing Kings of War (shameless plug: check out Kings of War Ontario if you're interested and in the province) in addition to my existing WHFB circles.

Col_Festus
24-07-2015, 05:30
Just chiming in...

My local gaming store ordered 8 copies. They have 1 sitting in the back on hold for an employee that is saving store credit to buy it... The rest are already collecting dust.

He asked his rep how long he had to sit on the stock before he could send it back. The answer was 8 weeks and he would receive a full refund from GW for whatever he didn't sell.. Thought that was rather interesting.

Ronin[XiC]
24-07-2015, 08:32
I feel kind of sorry for the FLGS :( Some of them MIGHT get into financial problems when they've invested too heavily into AoS and sold almost nothing.

Deadhorse
24-07-2015, 09:56
I honestly think that even if a store bought 80 boxes (at 40-50 pounds apiece?) and none of them sold, but can be returned within 2 months for a refund - it won't make much of a dent.

Unless there's actually some poor sod out there who threw every other product out of his LGS, and replaced them with AoS boxes rather than using two shelves for it.

Dat don't seem likely, though.

ihavetoomuchminis
24-07-2015, 13:11
Well, luckily for GW there are some stores frequented by GW supporters that are selling hundreds of copies. GW shouldnt worry at all. AoS is a blast!! Narrative!!

Herzlos
24-07-2015, 14:16
I honestly think that even if a store bought 80 boxes (at 40-50 pounds apiece?) and none of them sold, but can be returned within 2 months for a refund - it won't make much of a dent.

Unless there's actually some poor sod out there who threw every other product out of his LGS, and replaced them with AoS boxes rather than using two shelves for it.

Dat don't seem likely, though.

It's an awful lot of capital that's tied up in something that you can't get money back on for 8 weeks (assuming they actually refund the money at that point). Might be easier for some of them to just dump the boxes on ebay at trade cost to get their money back that way.

8 boxes in £320 that can't be used to buy any stock that'll sell. It hopefully won't be a deal breaker but on a tight month it could hurt. 80 boxes (£3200) could cripple most FLGS. The only places that'll have bought close to that are the bulk discounters.

The_Real_Chris
24-07-2015, 17:49
Money back or credit for other products?

Jadawin
24-07-2015, 19:40
This is probably incidental but its noticeable that if you look at the number viewing the 40k and warhammer forums on this website almost double the amount are on the warhammer forums. This is not normally the case. However it may just be curious people or trolls, or people rubbernecking a perceived train wreck. However I imagine that from GWs point of view all traffic is good traffic?

Templar Ben
24-07-2015, 19:56
Just chiming in...

My local gaming store ordered 8 copies. They have 1 sitting in the back on hold for an employee that is saving store credit to buy it... The rest are already collecting dust.

He asked his rep how long he had to sit on the stock before he could send it back. The answer was 8 weeks and he would receive a full refund from GW for whatever he didn't sell.. Thought that was rather interesting.

Is that a new rule?


I honestly think that even if a store bought 80 boxes (at 40-50 pounds apiece?) and none of them sold, but can be returned within 2 months for a refund - it won't make much of a dent.

Unless there's actually some poor sod out there who threw every other product out of his LGS, and replaced them with AoS boxes rather than using two shelves for it.

Dat don't seem likely, though.

It would be worse though if they were giving up capital that could be in products that actually sell. This is at best an interest free loan to GW for 8 weeks.


It's an awful lot of capital that's tied up in something that you can't get money back on for 8 weeks (assuming they actually refund the money at that point). Might be easier for some of them to just dump the boxes on ebay at trade cost to get their money back that way.

8 boxes in £320 that can't be used to buy any stock that'll sell. It hopefully won't be a deal breaker but on a tight month it could hurt. 80 boxes (£3200) could cripple most FLGS. The only places that'll have bought close to that are the bulk discounters.

My money is on the WarStore.


Money back or credit for other products?

That is the real question.

ebbwar
24-07-2015, 23:14
This is probably incidental but its noticeable that if you look at the number viewing the 40k and warhammer forums on this website almost double the amount are on the warhammer forums. This is not normally the case. However it may just be curious people or trolls, or people rubbernecking a perceived train wreck. However I imagine that from GWs point of view all traffic is good traffic?

As GW hates the internet, they'll see anyone going anywhere other than their website as evil and needing to be purged of Heresy™ Blam! :P

Col_Festus
25-07-2015, 02:00
My apologies.. Store credit, but my FLGS owner has concerns about stocking it at all. This was the compromise the rep agreed to to get him to order more than 3 or 4.

stonehorse
25-07-2015, 12:51
Well, the Limited Edition of the Rulebook, is still available. It came out I think 3 weeks ago, and was limited to 2,000 which is a low number. The other Limited Edition books that GW have produced have sold out within at most a week.

Using this as an indicator it doesn't bode too well for it's popularity.

Greyshadow
25-07-2015, 13:51
No indeed it doesn't.

MagicAngle
25-07-2015, 23:38
It's a little tragic that the ET books were understocked and sold out in minutes - indicating that sales clearly outperformed GW's expectations - while the books for the replacement system, apparently designed to goose up sales, are languishing on the shelves, unsold.

It really makes me wonder "what if" they'd stuck with the ET business model? Maybe it could have worked.

Lexington
26-07-2015, 06:17
It really makes me wonder "what if" they'd stuck with the ET business model? Maybe it could have worked.
Probably not; the whole appeal of the End Times was the End, after all. When people started feeling like no actual wrap-up was in sight, they'd drop it again. Heck, weren't sales of the ET books already slowing notably by the final entry?

Vazalaar
26-07-2015, 09:08
It's a little tragic that the ET books were understocked and sold out in minutes - indicating that sales clearly outperformed GW's expectations - while the books for the replacement system, apparently designed to goose up sales, are languishing on the shelves, unsold.

It really makes me wonder "what if" they'd stuck with the ET business model? Maybe it could have worked.

Yes, they shouldn't have finished it off. It would be cool if 9th edition was actually happening during the End Times, new factions, new units.. but no instead we got AoS..


Probably not; the whole appeal of the End Times was the End, after all. When people started feeling like no actual wrap-up was in sight, they'd drop it again. Heck, weren't sales of the ET books already slowing notably by the final entry?

It still sold out and probably the biggest reason 'if' sales dropped for the two latest books was because people realized it couldn't end well.

I hope that the End Times were more succesful than the AoS thing...

My impression is that AoS is failing big time. The excitement is gone and almost nobody cares about it... It's a flop!

Samsonov
26-07-2015, 09:34
It's a little tragic that the ET books were understocked and sold out in minutes - indicating that sales clearly outperformed GW's expectations - while the books for the replacement system, apparently designed to goose up sales, are languishing on the shelves, unsold.

It really makes me wonder "what if" they'd stuck with the ET business model? Maybe it could have worked.
Equally worrying is that "the book contains the first part of the ongoing narrative: The Realmgate Wars". So it looks like these books are to be a major mechanism for advancing the story and keeping people interested but the first one does not appear a massive success.If someone did not buy the first then are they going to jump on the second?

sorberec
26-07-2015, 10:15
Heck, weren't sales of the ET books already slowing notably by the final entry?

Well my FLGS still has several copies of the Archaon hardback on its shelves as of yesterday

75hastings69
26-07-2015, 10:17
Equally worrying is that "the book contains the first part of the ongoing narrative: The Realmgate Wars". So it looks like these books are to be a major mechanism for advancing the story and keeping people interested but the first one does not appear a massive success.If someone did not buy the first then are they going to jump on the second?

Also I think when the first releases of your new "game" are pretty much exactly the same model just armed slightly differently and released at a slow pace then any interest will diminish quickly. I think the problem is that many people thought GW were going to at least provide them with an alternative to WFB, what they've provided is beyond basic, and as such I think has alienated their existing customer base, and as we all know GW does no marketing especially as WD or whatever it's called this week is only in GW stores then how do they expect anyone that isn't already a GW customer to see the new "game"?? I think this is without doubt the most poorly executed plan GW have had to day, even worse than finescat! And I'm lead to believe 40k isn't safe either as I'm told that within the next 2 years codex will go the same way as the WFB army book, so I'm going to leap to the conclusion that it means 40k will change in a similar manner to what WFB did.

Vazalaar
26-07-2015, 10:28
Also I think when the first releases of your new "game" are pretty much exactly the same model just armed slightly differently and released at a slow pace then any interest will diminish quickly. I think the problem is that many people thought GW were going to at least provide them with an alternative to WFB, what they've provided is beyond basic, and as such I think has alienated their existing customer base, and as we all know GW does no marketing especially as WD or whatever it's called this week is only in GW stores then how do they expect anyone that isn't already a GW customer to see the new "game"?? I think this is without doubt the most poorly executed plan GW have had to day, even worse than finescat! And I'm lead to believe 40k isn't safe either as I'm told that within the next 2 years codex will go the same way as the WFB army book, so I'm going to leap to the conclusion that it means 40k will change in a similar manner to what WFB did.

If the change from 8th edition to AoS flopped. When AoS isn't a succes, I see no reason why GW would change the 40k model to an AoS model. If anything I expected to see AoS/fantasy disappear for good in two years.

El_Commi
26-07-2015, 10:34
Well, the Limited Edition of the Rulebook, is still available. It came out I think 3 weeks ago, and was limited to 2,000 which is a low number. The other Limited Edition books that GW have produced have sold out within at most a week.

Using this as an indicator it doesn't bode too well for it's popularity.

It's not really a rulebook though so can't really be compared to one. A Codex/Rulebook will sell out because aside from the coolness of having a LE one, you can also use it later.
The book as I see it only have rules for models which are freely avaialble online and the rest is filled with (questionable) fluff.

To be fair though, it seems very similar to the End Times books in terms of, fluff + formations + scenarios.

I bought all the End times books (bar khaine, it was sold out before I could get it), two of them - Nagash, and Thanquol, in Limited Edition.

I got Nagash as I'd been a long time undead player and had no idea it was heralding the end of the OLd world, then I figured I'd get the rest for the sake of having the collection.

Realmgate wars doesn't interest me at the moment, there's no real rules, and by all accounts the descriptions of the scenarios seems pretty bland. (Edit: I'm also waiting for something undeady)

I imagine there's a few people in the same boat as me, wondering why they have some very expensive books on the shelf that went out of date quicker than a frozen yougert and not willing to invest in a product that has no indication of life expectancy.

75hastings69
26-07-2015, 10:35
Because GW doesn't react to stuff, they give the customer what they think the customer wants. GW will already have made models etc for stuff for 2 years time (or at least be well progressed in them) even the AoS stuff has last years date on the sprues, and that was manufacture date, they'll actually have been designed a good 8 - 12 months before that.

GW have openly stated they aren't a games company, and I think AoS pretty much confirms this as the rules look like they were written by a pineapple.

Vazalaar
26-07-2015, 10:38
Ugh, who came up with it... Terrible.

Samsonov
26-07-2015, 11:35
Could AoS be a test case for reformulating 40K? Surely it is easy to simultaneously design 8th ed 40K and design AoS equivalent for 40K. Do this two years in advance starting now, give AoS one year to fail, then you decide which to go for and still have full year to implement 8th ed 40K or AoS 40K.

itcamefromthedeep
26-07-2015, 15:23
There are consistent reports of older kits moving off the shelves. What that means is unclear in the context of the possibility of players finishing off their 8e Armies before the ship sinks.

I've been tempted to pick up a few things to complete a Dwarf army I was going for, but held off for now.

Voss
26-07-2015, 16:52
If the change from 8th edition to AoS flopped. When AoS isn't a succes, I see no reason why GW would change the 40k model to an AoS model. If anything I expected to see AoS/fantasy disappear for good in two years.

The main reason is the work on AoS:40K would have already started. They've been riding that development cycle pretty hard and close the last few years.


It's a little tragic that the ET books were understocked and sold out in minutes - indicating that sales clearly outperformed GW's expectations
Wait... that conclusion isn't correct. It is equally (or more) likely they understocked on purpose to not have any leftover stock of books that were only compatible with the old system.

vlad78
26-07-2015, 17:21
Could AoS be a test case for reformulating 40K? Surely it is easy to simultaneously design 8th ed 40K and design AoS equivalent for 40K. Do this two years in advance starting now, give AoS one year to fail, then you decide which to go for and still have full year to implement 8th ed 40K or AoS 40K.

Whatever the case, many players in my club thought as much and just stopped spending on 40k and are selling some of their armies (those they do not like the most).

IMHO, AOS just showed GW doesn't care about the quality of what they sell. We customers are just seen as replaceable and expendable. I started to see this company with the same perspective.

I'll ask the shop around here to see if AOS does well.

MiyamatoMusashi
26-07-2015, 17:34
The main reason is the work on AoS:40K would have already started. They've been riding that development cycle pretty hard and close the last few years.

Converting AoS to 40K would take all of an afternoon. Maybe a week to create warscrolls. It's not like they need to carefully balance the points costs, or anything. :rolleyes:

They could easily develop the next few 40K Codices / next edition, in parallel with AoS-40K, as a plan B in case AoS should flop.

I don't know if that's what they are doing - and judging by the giant gold statue outside their HQ, it's entirely possible they're just prepared to go up to their nuts in guts on AoS, and thus won't bother with a plan B - but it would be trivial for them to do.

Kyriakin
26-07-2015, 18:59
it's entirely possible they're just prepared to go up to their nuts in guts on AoS
One up the bum, no harm done... Except bankruptcy...

Whirlwind
26-07-2015, 22:08
If the change from 8th edition to AoS flopped. When AoS isn't a succes, I see no reason why GW would change the 40k model to an AoS model. If anything I expected to see AoS/fantasy disappear for good in two years.

They may just plough on because it's GW we're talking about! On the other hand if they have already started the next 40k cycle and turning it into a AoS then if anyone is taking notice they are probably sweating a bit. Losing a lot of fantasy players probably can be stomached (as they probably view us as old whinging gits) and were a much smaller proportion of sales. However losing a vast fraction of 40k players would likely be a disaster.

Oh and yes I agree the release up to now is utterly boring. It's just the same old gold painted models week in week out at the moment. It's almost as if they have used the same basic cad design. The only unique model is the one of the thundercat.

Ghal Maraz
27-07-2015, 00:07
That's Marine design 101, only having forgotten that Marines are actually more varied in pose, come with an established design/background/iconography, get the sci-fi vibe with all those cool special guns and come served with tanks and the like.

In summary, modern GW lazy design.

Skargit Crookfang
27-07-2015, 02:32
For what its worth, heres my two sheckles:

I am in no way a fan of AoS... but I spent about $400.00 on whfb models since it has come out. Every goblin box i can find is getting bought and put aside for later... sorry for doing my part to skew the numbers guys ;-p!

We have 4 flgs and one GW here, and this is what I've heard:

The smallest flgs brought in 10 and hasn't sold 1. The owner is livid with regards to the reps promises. Well, come on man, he's a sales rep- are you new?

The second smallest i have no info on.

The 2nd largest has been okay, apparently. About 20 ordered and 10 sold. Also, it was mostly 40k vets who bought them amd have been playing in store- first bit of fantasy there in ages.

Then there's the big flgs... and i mean biiiiig. From the looks of their overstock. .. not good. You can see, behind the cash area, into the clampack and boxed set storage area. Doesn't look like they've sold more than a handful out of the...well... it looks to be about 70+ they've ordered. The employees are being coy about it- but you can see the "told ya so" written all over their faces.

As for the GW... for such a normally active fantasy store. .. its been a ghost town on Wednesdays, and the manager (great dude) has been asking if I've seen a number of regulars... i have. .. they've all written off AoS. They just have more discipline than i... as previously eluded to.

Take that for what it is. Just one guy's observations.

75hastings69
27-07-2015, 03:15
That's Marine design 101, only having forgotten that Marines are actually more varied in pose, come with an established design/background/iconography, get the sci-fi vibe with all those cool special guns and come served with tanks and the like.

In summary, modern GW lazy design.

Totally agree. I don't think GW even understand HOW SM became so popular for 40k, they just take for granted that they are their sellers and dropping them into fantasy = win. They seem to forget that SM have built upon year after year with a rich background etc as you quite rightly say. Just dropping a bunch of super humans into fantasy and saying - sigmar made them, from sigmarite, from the forges of sigmarsville, using his special sigmarstuff doesn't count as good background, it's just lazy, and anyone with two brain cells to rub together can easily see straight through it.

As one poster put earlier I have also seen people dropping 40k and selling off their armies because "hey if GW can shaft their oldest and longest selling system for the pile of cack that is AoS I'm sure they won't hesitate doing the same to 40k", lots of people taking up Infinity ATM (even bought a combined army starter myself having enjoyed a game at my local club - which I lost) which is nice to see. I'm just glad for the hobby that people are starting to see there are so many alternatives out there to GW.

lbecks
27-07-2015, 07:13
I'd like to see GW differentiate the stormcast "chapters" in look and in background (Wulfric Marines!) and support them with free literature in WD and a campaign that leads to Sigmar disappearing. Adeptus Astartes was such a good series of articles in the old WD. Every founding chapter got their background told.

One thing GW is still appallingly bad at is marketing. I have no idea how some 12 year old (in the US at least) is supposed to find out about this stuff. Warhammer Total War is going to do more for Warhammer marketing than GW has done in the past 15 years.

ebbwar
27-07-2015, 08:52
One thing GW is still appallingly bad at is marketing. I have no idea how some 12 year old (in the US at least) is supposed to find out about this stuff. Warhammer Total War is going to do more for Warhammer marketing than GW has done in the past 15 years.

Well until people playing WTW go looking for Warhammer tabletop and... not find it as its been dis-continued for PoS. ;)

75hastings69
27-07-2015, 09:33
I'd like to see GW differentiate the stormcast "chapters" in look and in background (Wulfric Marines!) and support them with free literature in WD and a campaign that leads to Sigmar disappearing. Adeptus Astartes was such a good series of articles in the old WD. Every founding chapter got their background told.

They could do an interesting story angle of some of sigmars sigmarines falling to chaos and literally tearing his force in two, he could become quite ill and be kept alive artificially in a big chair of pure sigmarite in his sigmarhouse, in sigmarsville, capital of sigmarland using only his strong sigmarspirit to sigmaraid sigmankind, if I could only think of a name for such an event!

One thing GW is still appallingly bad at is marketing. I have no idea how some 12 year old (in the US at least) is supposed to find out about this stuff. Warhammer Total War is going to do more for Warhammer marketing than GW has done in the past 15 years.

What he said \/


Well until people playing WTW go looking for Warhammer tabletop and... not find it as its been dis-continued for PoS. ;)

jtrowell
27-07-2015, 10:10
But, but, he is a living God, surely having some of his own people trun agaisnt him would be an act hard to imagine, some kind of big heresy ... :shifty:

lbecks
27-07-2015, 10:29
They could do an interesting story angle of some of sigmars sigmarines falling to chaos and literally tearing his force in two, he could become quite ill and be kept alive artificially in a big chair of pure sigmarite in his sigmarhouse, in sigmarsville, capital of sigmarland using only his strong sigmarspirit to sigmaraid sigmankind, if I could only think of a name for such an event!

Everyone says this in jest, but I hope there's a Fantasy Heresy Campaign. Fantasy had their sort of Ragnarok. Now they can have their sort of Titanomachy. And a return of Slaanesh campaign. It would be disappointing if things were locked into static mode like WFB was until the end times.



What he said \/

I think the biggest boost in sales would be the novels and then maybe people would pick up a few models of their favorite characters/units from the game. With WTW people will get to play with thousands of guys on the field, all animated, with excellent graphics not dependent on any artistic skill they have. And cheaper too. If GW was going for a game for 12 year olds with AoS (and not meant as an insult, if you get a kid at 12 you can then grow the complexity of the product as they age) so far it doesn't seem like they succeeded. They're still selling it through the regular old channels with no advertising, the kits are still ridiculously priced, and the models are very complex.

75hastings69
27-07-2015, 10:54
Everyone says this in jest, but I hope there's a Fantasy Heresy Campaign. Fantasy had their sort of Ragnarok. Now they can have their sort of Titanomachy. And a return of Slaanesh campaign. It would be disappointing if things were locked into static mode like WFB was until the end times.
.

Yes and then the eldar... erm I mean elves... erm I mean aelffes could partially succumb to the returning slaanesh! that would be an excellent idea for a story! Seriously why even bother calling it AoS then if that's the case? Just call it 40k lite or something? Isn't 40k also locked into that static mode???

75hastings69
27-07-2015, 10:59
I think the biggest boost in sales would be the novels and then maybe people would pick up a few models of their favorite characters/units from the game. With WTW people will get to play with thousands of guys on the field, all animated, with excellent graphics not dependent on any artistic skill they have. And cheaper too. If GW was going for a game for 12 year olds with AoS (and not meant as an insult, if you get a kid at 12 you can then grow the complexity of the product as they age) so far it doesn't seem like they succeeded. They're still selling it through the regular old channels with no advertising, the kits are still ridiculously priced, and the models are very complex.

So you seriously think that in the MAJORITY people that ALREADY read Warhammer Novels will be satisfied with a game with a 4 page rule pamphlet???? Seriously? And the amount of people that read Warhammer novels compared to the pre-existing and now mostly alienated customer/fan base would be what kind of number exactly? You think there are all these warhammer novel readers that have been waiting for something like AoS to jump in? especially when the stuff in those novels is GONE???

I've read a lot of your posts mate over the years, and have to say I really feel that you're almost trying to make excuses for AoS, and I don't mean this as an attack on you personally, I'm glad you enjoy it, but I don't see how you can compare it to WFB, if you do enjoy this more than WFB then you should try some other skirmish games, they're waaaaay better than AoS (but with less Sigmarite) :)

lbecks
27-07-2015, 11:26
So you seriously think that in the MAJORITY people that ALREADY read Warhammer Novels will be satisfied with a game with a 4 page rule pamphlet???? Seriously? And the amount of people that read Warhammer novels compared to the pre-existing and now mostly alienated customer/fan base would be what kind of number exactly? You think there are all these warhammer novel readers that have been waiting for something like AoS to jump in? especially when the stuff in those novels is GONE???

I've read a lot of your posts mate over the years, and have to say I really feel that you're almost trying to make excuses for AoS, and I don't mean this as an attack on you personally, I'm glad you enjoy it, but I don't see how you can compare it to WFB, if you do enjoy this more than WFB then you should try some other skirmish games, they're waaaaay better than AoS (but with less Sigmarite) :)

I'm talking about the effects of Warhammer Total War on potential Games Workshop hobby customers, sorry if the quoting mislead you. The novels will sell because WTW sets up a world, but it's a sandbox. People will probably want to know the "canon" events and they'll go read the novels. They're also easy books to find. I don't think people are going to get full fledged into a tabletop wargame because of WTW. They'll be busy playing WTW. And if it sells well Creative Assembly will be churning out campaigns and expansions for WTW like they've done for every other TW game.

As for AoS. I think it's a bungled release. As I said, if i'm making a game for 12 year olds, i'm going to make it 12 year old friendly across the board (simple rules, simple models, affordable price) and sell it in places a 12 year old or their parents can easily find. I like that the setting seems to be moving. I want there to be cool campaigns and new miniatures. And if GW wants to add a greater deal of complexity to it, they can.

-DE-
27-07-2015, 11:50
They could do an interesting story angle of some of sigmars sigmarines falling to chaos and tearing his force in two, he could become quite ill and be kept alive artificially in a big chair of pure sigmarite in his sigmarhouse, in sigmarsville, capital of sigmarland using only his strong sigmarspirit to sigmaraid sigmankind, if I could only think of a name for such an event!

The Ionus Cryptborn Schism Sigmarschism?

75hastings69
27-07-2015, 11:54
@ Ibecks, Ah right I get you now. The only problem with that is that WTW and the novels are set in a world that doesn't exist anymore.

I agree, if the "game" is aimed at children then they models should have been one piece or snap fit - perhaps with handles on. Thing is like I said it's not about the "game" GW just want to sell plastic miniatures, something they're usually very good at, in this case I think they've made a right **** of it. Especially releasing pretty much the same model for the weeks after the main release just one at a time.

Like so many others if they'd kept the world/background etc. then I might have given it more of a chance out of some sense of brand loyalty, but prefixing the game with Warhammer when in actual fact it's something entirely different isn't branding, it's trying to trick people that are already invested into thinking it's more of what they love, only it isn't.

I've just had a though. This AoS seems to have caused a massive schism in the warhammer community, perhaps this is pretty much what happened to the emperor in 40k? perhaps the new edition of "Age of Buckaroo" came out and divided the staunch chapters of hardened "Buckaroo" players of the adeptus astartes, sure it all started out as a bit of banter and a few choice words over intercoms but look where it ended!!!! We should all just leave AoS alone, surely its the influence of the gods of chaos!

lbecks
27-07-2015, 12:36
@ Ibecks, Ah right I get you now. The only problem with that is that WTW and the novels are set in a world that doesn't exist anymore.

I agree, if the "game" is aimed at children then they models should have been one piece or snap fit - perhaps with handles on. Thing is like I said it's not about the "game" GW just want to sell plastic miniatures, something they're usually very good at, in this case I think they've made a right **** of it. Especially releasing pretty much the same model for the weeks after the main release just one at a time.

Like so many others if they'd kept the world/background etc. then I might have given it more of a chance out of some sense of brand loyalty, but prefixing the game with Warhammer when in actual fact it's something entirely different isn't branding, it's trying to trick people that are already invested into thinking it's more of what they love, only it isn't.

I've just had a though. This AoS seems to have caused a massive schism in the warhammer community, perhaps this is pretty much what happened to the emperor in 40k? perhaps the new edition of "Age of Buckaroo" came out and divided the staunch chapters of hardened "Buckaroo" players of the adeptus astartes, sure it all started out as a bit of banter and a few choice words over intercoms but look where it ended!!!! We should all just leave AoS alone, surely its the influence of the gods of chaos!

I don't think it even matters that the old world doesn't exist in the context of WTW and the novels doing well. WTW will provide a lot of background up to the point of the start date in the game. If the books get a spike in sales it'll be interesting to see if GW takes advantage of it by releasing books that take place during events in the old world. Like how Marvel is revisiting the original Star Wars trilogy time period with new comics. Heck, GW could just reintroduce the old world as a realm if they figured people missed it a lot.

ebbwar
27-07-2015, 12:57
I'm talking about the effects of Warhammer Total War on potential Games Workshop hobby customers, sorry if the quoting mislead you. The novels will sell because WTW sets up a world, but it's a sandbox. People will probably want to know the "canon" events and they'll go read the novels. They're also easy books to find. I don't think people are going to get full fledged into a tabletop wargame because of WTW. They'll be busy playing WTW. And if it sells well Creative Assembly will be churning out campaigns and expansions for WTW like they've done for every other TW game.

Thats provided Black Library keeps the Warhammer novels set in the Warhammer world in print. I believe any new novels will be set in AoS world only as thats what they want to push. So its possible WTW players will pop over to Black Library and not find any novels to match what they are playing...

MiyamatoMusashi
27-07-2015, 12:58
Thats provided Black Library keeps the Warhammer novels set in the Warhammer world in print. I believe any new novels will be set in AoS world only as thats what they want to push. So its possible WTW players will pop over to Black Library and not find any novels to match what they are playing...

There's already no Warhammer section on the BL site any more, only AoS, which doesn't list any of the old Warhammer books. (I believe they can still be searched for, but for how much longer?)

ebbwar
27-07-2015, 13:00
There's already no Warhammer section on the BL site any more, only AoS, which doesn't list any of the old Warhammer books. (I believe they can still be searched for, but for how much longer?)

I don't even bother looking at Black Library anymore. Got bored of HH novels as its being dragged out for so long to milk it and I assumed AoS would be the end of Oldhammer titles, looks like I was right :(

Edit: I just popped over to have a look - There is still a 'Warhammer Fantasy Battles' sub-section in the E-Books section, probably only because they don't need to print/store them physically.

Humanoid
27-07-2015, 13:04
As one poster put earlier I have also seen people dropping 40k and selling off their armies because "hey if GW can shaft their oldest and longest selling system for the pile of cack that is AoS I'm sure they won't hesitate doing the same to 40k",

What if the Age of Sigmar was post-apocalyptic 40K rather than post-End Times WFB?

As I look at the sigmarines, I see a world where the post-apocalyptic 40K gods want the mortals to battle with brawn rather than bullet. Thus, boltstormers have replaced stormbolters.

Prepare thyself for the rebranding of the AoS miniatures.

lbecks
27-07-2015, 13:06
Thats provided Black Library keeps the Warhammer novels set in the Warhammer world in print. I believe any new novels will be set in AoS world only as thats what they want to push. So its possible WTW players will pop over to Black Library and not find any novels to match what they are playing...

That would be incredibly dumb of them to not have the books on print during WTW. GW needs to realize having multiple iterations of something isn't a detriment. Any strong IP has various versions of their product out there for people to enjoy.

Herzlos
27-07-2015, 13:28
Thats provided Black Library keeps the Warhammer novels set in the Warhammer world in print. I believe any new novels will be set in AoS world only as thats what they want to push. So its possible WTW players will pop over to Black Library and not find any novels to match what they are playing...

I think it's quite likely that WTW fans will find the Warhammer books in bookstores/amazon incidentally rather than searching them out (at least, the ones that didn't know of WHFB initially), and will struggle to find new material / stock of old material.

Assuming, of course, that GW doesn't offer the bookstores a return/refund on any old world titles.

Shards of Basalt
27-07-2015, 14:43
The sad part is that the AoS setting seems like it has potential, but Games Workshop's tendency to be frustratingly opaque gives everything this half-finished feel. For example, I want to like the Stormcast Eternals but I don't feel I know enough about them lore-wise.

Sephillion
27-07-2015, 16:37
On topic, I went back to the LGS and they still have the same number of boxes.

HelloKitty
27-07-2015, 16:47
Out of five stores in my area only two have had any success.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Jim30
27-07-2015, 17:04
Having just read a really good piece about the Ford Edsel, I wonder if AOS is going to be the wargaming equivalent of the Edsel, talked about as a disaster for years to come. The similarities are all there.

The_Real_Chris
27-07-2015, 17:23
They talked to sections of the public I thought for the car? Not very wel, but they tried. And of course it was seen as too similar to everything else. The AoS comparison would have to be a push bike as you do most of the design and work yourself, while of course millions of people find pushbikes fun, just like AoS.

Jim30
27-07-2015, 18:13
Chris
Apparently they did do market consultation, but were unable to come up with a name - Edsel was ruled out at the start (being name of founders son), yet after presenting 18000(!) choices to Ford, they settled on Edsel. What emerged was overhyped stats without actual information, poorly manufactured, and lacking in support of dealers and customers. Hmm...

williamsond
28-07-2015, 10:44
About two weeks ago I was at a big gaming event and I bumped into a lot of the gaming groups I belong to over the years, talking to them it looks like out of the 5 groups I have affiliation with only one of them have embrased AoS the rest seem to share my lack luster view of it.

the main taking point seemed to be the balance issues and the way every game just ends up a scrum and you can noramlly tell whos won by end of turn 2, there didn't seem to be much love for it, people seemed to like the models but as a potential for 40k conversion rather than using them in AoS.

vlad78
28-07-2015, 20:38
In my area, there's a small independant retailer. He sold five boxes and said it was a good start.

de Selby
29-07-2015, 04:10
My local has sold three, apparently. He considered that okayish business.

Herzlos
29-07-2015, 09:06
The major games expo for the country is on Saturday, so we'll see what the discounts on it are like. At the last one (about a week after Assasanatorium came out they were as steep as 30% off)

muhmalia
29-07-2015, 12:59
My shop bought 4 and there's been no interest for them. He said he was hoping to move them on ebay.

MiyamatoMusashi
29-07-2015, 14:12
For what little it's worth: my FLGS owner was lamenting with me how bad a game it is, but shrugged and said "it's selling alright, I guess".

aprilmanha
29-07-2015, 14:24
The major games expo for the country is on Saturday, so we'll see what the discounts on it are like. At the last one (about a week after Assasanatorium came out they were as steep as 30% off)
To be fair, I would consider trying the Assassin game for £30 if it was out.

Herzlos
29-07-2015, 14:34
If it were £30 I'd more than likely just pick it up on the off chance of getting to use it.

Deadhorse
30-07-2015, 22:36
In July 2015, we relaunched Warhammer Fantasy to broad acclaim ‘Warhammer: Age of Sigmar’. We are so proud of this new range of miniatures that we have commissioned an additional statue at our HQ to complement our Space Marine, which has delighted our customers and staff for the last 17 years. You have to see it to believe it, you will not be disappointed.

So this is from the financial report, where GW already has nearly a month of sales data. It appears that the best they can say to their investors about this launch is "broad acclaim" (which is patently false) and "we put up a statue".

Could that constitute an indication of how sales are going?

Zywus
30-07-2015, 23:00
In July 2015, we relaunched Warhammer Fantasy to broad acclaim ‘Warhammer: Age of Sigmar’. We are so proud of this new range of miniatures that we have commissioned an additional statue at our HQ to complement our Space Marine, which has delighted our customers and staff for the last 17 years. You have to see it to believe it, you will not be disappointed.
Complement the Space marine? I though the poor guy had been dismantled and hidden under a staircase. (plotting his revenge)

218013

On the "broad acclaim" bit; There are probably enough people around the world liking AoS (There's over ten of them on Warseer alone) for their acclaim to be considered broad. The report just omit that the detractors outnumber them.;)

Londinium
30-07-2015, 23:18
All an investor would need to do to see that 'broad acclaim' is blatantly false is to type 'Age of Sigmar' into Google and check out one of the forums. Are GW so trapped into their own doublespeak that they actually believe what they're saying?

de Selby
31-07-2015, 00:52
There were some unexpected reviews in strange places when AoS came out, apparently indicating that GW had reached out to a few places in some way (very unusual). They seemed fairly positive/bemused/vague, which I guess could be interpreted as 'broad acclaim' if you were determined to ignore the people who actually play the games.

MarcoSkoll
31-07-2015, 01:13
All an investor would need to do to see that 'broad acclaim' is blatantly false is to type 'Age of Sigmar' into Google and check out one of the forums.
Well, broad can also mean "vulgar" (as in "broad humour"), so I guess they are technically correct.

sorberec
31-07-2015, 06:45
Complement the Space marine? I though the poor guy had been dismantled and hidden under a staircase. (plotting his revenge)


Well there's two big Space Marine figures out back of the GW warehouse at the moment that I see every day on my train commute into work - one of them was there for several weeks before being joined by the other

ebbwar
31-07-2015, 08:47
[I]So this is from the financial report, where GW already has nearly a month of sales data. It appears that the best they can say to their investors about this launch is "broad acclaim" (which is patently false) and "we put up a statue".

Well as the financial report goes up to June 2015 aka right before AoS launched, no sales figures for it will be in this report, we need to wait a year to see what impact it makes. Thus, Kirby and his puppet Kev can say whatever they want about AoS now, with no figures in circulation outside of GW to support/undermine what they say.

Herzlos
31-07-2015, 08:48
In July 2015, we relaunched Warhammer Fantasy to broad acclaim ‘Warhammer: Age of Sigmar’. We are so proud of this new range of miniatures that we have commissioned an additional statue at our HQ to complement our Space Marine, which has delighted our customers and staff for the last 17 years. You have to see it to believe it, you will not be disappointed.

So this is from the financial report, where GW already has nearly a month of sales data. It appears that the best they can say to their investors about this launch is "broad acclaim" (which is patently false) and "we put up a statue".

Could that constitute an indication of how sales are going?

I guess if you only listened to the folk queuing up in GW stores to buy AoS on launch day, the acclaim could be pretty broad.

Whirlwind
31-07-2015, 08:58
Complement the Space marine? I though the poor guy had been dismantled and hidden under a staircase. (plotting his revenge)


It's more likely that he is hiding so he isn't noticed when the AoS hammer comes for 40k. Either that or he's packing his bags for a quick exit.

RandomThoughts
31-07-2015, 18:49
I asked at my LGS yesterday (Funtainment in Munich, if everyone wants to confirm I'm not just making this up), and was told four or five boxes so far, over the course of three weeks. When I asked about previous GW starter packs, I was told they usually sold 5 a day.

ebbwar
31-07-2015, 21:08
It's more likely that he is hiding so he isn't noticed when the AoS hammer comes for 40k. Either that or he's packing his bags for a quick exit.

Or jump out and take GW management by surprise and accuse them of Heresy!™ Blam! Blam! ;)

vlad78
31-07-2015, 22:10
Complement the Space marine? I though the poor guy had been dismantled and hidden under a staircase. (plotting his revenge)

218013

On the "broad acclaim" bit; There are probably enough people around the world liking AoS (There's over ten of them on Warseer alone) for their acclaim to be considered broad. The report just omit that the detractors outnumber them.;)

Now it is proven space marines and Harry Potter share at least one thing. Do you thing this is a move to attract J K Rowling's fans and make them buy AOS?
Maybe J K Rowling should sue GW for IP infringement.

jtrowell
01-08-2015, 18:29
Once again it's a space marine that get all the attention under the stairs ... :D

Herzlos
01-08-2015, 22:05
The major games expo for the country is on Saturday, so we'll see what the discounts on it are like. At the last one (about a week after Assasanatorium came out they were as steep as 30% off)

Bizarrely, I only saw one stand that had AoS but never saw the price. They also had a demo table but I never saw anyone getting an AoS demo (I guess the rules are so simple you don't need one), whilst the other tables were pretty busy (mainly Dungeon Saga and Warzone). So I've no idea how well it's selling.

ltsobel
02-08-2015, 07:17
I too went to the event in Scotland and I kept an eye on AoS (I was doing other stuff as well!). The price seemed to be around £55. Hardly any of the boxes seemed to go, no books and I only saw two people playing. Even the free hand outs on one stand (wrist bands, balloons etc) seemed to still be there. That said I thought there would be more Warhammer on the Bring and Buy as people cashed out but other than a Chaos Warriors job lot there didn't seem to be many large sets.

Herzlos
02-08-2015, 07:29
The bring & buy has gotten pretty random, though GW stuff has largely disappeared from it as it barely sells now. A few years ago it was at least 50% GW.

I didn't even see the free hand outs. I love free stuff lol.

NoobLord
03-08-2015, 19:00
FWIW Darksphere have just about got through their initial delivery of 80 boxes and have 6 more on the way according to the webstore.

Clearly good news for them that they've managed to shift their stock but only 6 in their next batch doesn't sound like they expect to sell that quickly again.

Darkephere is a big retailer in one of Europe's largest cities and are selling at a 25% discount to put those numbers into some kind of perspective.

heliodorus04
03-08-2015, 19:06
FWIW Darksphere have just about got through their initial delivery of 80 boxes and have 6 more on the way according to the webstore.

Clearly good news for them that they've managed to shift their stock but only 6 in their next batch doesn't sound like they expect to sell that quickly again.

Darkephere is a big retailer in one of Europe's largest cities and are selling at a 25% discount to put those numbers into some kind of perspective.

Can you please tell me what city this is in Europe? I don't ever want to visit the place that bought 80 boxed sets of AoS in the first 30 days. It'd be a public service message, really. I need to know.

NoobLord
03-08-2015, 19:08
Can you please tell me what city this is in Europe? I don't ever want to visit the place that bought 80 boxed sets of AoS in the first 30 days. It'd be a public service message, really. I need to know.
That would be London.

kylek2235
03-08-2015, 19:20
How are sales going? Here's the most telling:

"Gross margin declined in the period due to a decline in sales volumes and increased development costs due to the release of more new
products. The quality of new product we release continues to surprise and delight our customers and we plan to do so every week. We
have increased the prices of our new releases to reflect the additional investment and value we have built into these new releases. The
annual impact of this increase on our UK RRP price list is an average increase of 3%."

Sales are worse and that erodes profit margins. They raised prices to compensate.... again. That's not what happens when you reinvigorate a gaming system.

Whirlwind
03-08-2015, 19:47
Can you please tell me what city this is in Europe? I don't ever want to visit the place that bought 80 boxed sets of AoS in the first 30 days. It'd be a public service message, really. I need to know.

They have an online presence as well and with a hefty discount (one of the largest) so it's not a surprise that they shifted quite a few. I doubt they were all London purchases (though to be fair 80 in the whole of London is not a high ratio).

ebbwar
03-08-2015, 19:51
How are sales going? Here's the most telling:

"Gross margin declined in the period due to a decline in sales volumes and increased development costs due to the release of more new
products. The quality of new product we release continues to surprise and delight our customers and we plan to do so every week. We
have increased the prices of our new releases to reflect the additional investment and value we have built into these new releases. The
annual impact of this increase on our UK RRP price list is an average increase of 3%."

Sales are worse and that erodes profit margins. They raised prices to compensate.... again. That's not what happens when you reinvigorate a gaming system.

Even the average increase of 3% is somewhat mis-leading. GW do not do the annual price rise now, but a few products like paints recently had an increase which when combined with existing items with no increase gave the 3% average. However, when a new item is released it will be at price X. So you can release something at a crazy price point and as its new, GW can claim, well we didn't increase the price as that item didn't exist before. What I'd like to know is when something is re-done like the recent assault/devastator/7th ed. codex, will it be classed as a new item when factoring the average or do they use the price from the last version to say yes there was an increase? You could argue a new edition codex along with a new updated kit of an older one are technicially new items and so price them at whatever and claim there was no increase.

kylek2235
03-08-2015, 20:44
Even the average increase of 3% is somewhat mis-leading. GW do not do the annual price rise now, but a few products like paints recently had an increase which when combined with existing items with no increase gave the 3% average. However, when a new item is released it will be at price X. So you can release something at a crazy price point and as its new, GW can claim, well we didn't increase the price as that item didn't exist before. What I'd like to know is when something is re-done like the recent assault/devastator/7th ed. codex, will it be classed as a new item when factoring the average or do they use the price from the last version to say yes there was an increase? You could argue a new edition codex along with a new updated kit of an older one are technicially new items and so price them at whatever and claim there was no increase.

Agreed, the Sigmarine prices are an obvious price increase that they haven't listed because it's a "new product." Being that prices of units/characters/monsters tend to be uniform in price its easy to see by comparison. There are more indicators, but this was the most telling. GW lives off that profit margin and they've mentioned its decline yet again as a result of sales volume. They just keep selling less. Not good considering their sales strategy is supposed to be about initial splash sales.

My guess, based on 0 evidence and pure speculation was that traditional Fantasy minis tanked sales wise, 40k numbers decreased as a result of uncertainty/competition with AoS and AoS sold ok for a splash release, as new releases tend to do.

robbienw
03-08-2015, 23:07
Darksphere got 180 boxes in initially, not 80.

NoobLord
03-08-2015, 23:19
Darksphere got 180 boxes in initially, not 80.

Okie-doke, my mistake. I only started watching a day or so after the initial release so they must have had a lot on pre-order I guess.

Samsonov
03-08-2015, 23:36
Complement the Space marine? I though the poor guy had been dismantled and hidden under a staircase. (plotting his revenge)

218013
That marine hiding behind the stairs reminds me of the McVey Emperor Horus diorama 218141

Poncho160
03-08-2015, 23:55
That marine hiding behind the stairs reminds me of the McVey Emperor Horus diorama 218141

That takes me back!!!! haha. Proper old school. Still a hundred time better than what I could do now though! haha

ebbwar
04-08-2015, 11:06
That marine hiding behind the stairs reminds me of the McVey Emperor Horus diorama 218141

Maybe its the start of a life-sized diorama? :eek:

Samsonov
04-08-2015, 11:20
Maybe its the start of a life-sized diorama? :eek:All would be forgiven if they actually did that will full size statues.

Evil_D185
04-08-2015, 13:07
Okie-doke, my mistake. I only started watching a day or so after the initial release so they must have had a lot on pre-order I guess.

Oh man I just have to shake my head at stuff like this, 1-2 days after release they had 130 odd boxes left must have been the 11-12th because that was when I bought my boxes

If you do not know what you are talking about..... don't

NoobLord
04-08-2015, 14:33
Oh man I just have to shake my head at stuff like this, 1-2 days after release they had 130 odd boxes left must have been the 11-12th because that was when I bought my boxes

If you do not know what you are talking about..... don't

Innocent mistake - no need to get your panties in a twist!

Jim30
04-08-2015, 18:30
Can you please tell me what city this is in Europe? I don't ever want to visit the place that bought 80 boxed sets of AoS in the first 30 days. It'd be a public service message, really. I need to know.


Thats a really harsh and actually quite offensive stance to take on a store that houses a superb and very vibrant community of gamers (myself included) who play a lot more than WHFB. Its a store where you rarely see AoS played, but you see a lot of other systems regularly in use, particularly Magic, X-Wing, Maulifax, 40K and so on. Its a great store, with excellent staff, a superb community of gamers and a great atmosphere. I think your post was actually a really cheap and very unpleasant shot.

RunepriestRidcully
04-08-2015, 21:33
It's also one of the few places you can easily have a battlefleet gothic game.

Avian
10-08-2015, 21:02
Out of curiosity, I'm tracking the number of posts in the AoS and WHFB forums at Warhammer.org.uk (as they have one of each). So far the WHFB ones are in the lead 4:1.

English 2000
10-08-2015, 21:04
Out of curiosity, I'm tracking the number of posts in the AoS and WHFB forums at Warhammer.org.uk (as they have one of each). So far the WHFB ones are in the lead 4:1.
I wish we had a separate AOS section on Warseer

What are WHFB players taking about over there? Campaigns, painting, 8th edition tactics?

Avian
10-08-2015, 21:38
A lot of it seems to be how to move forward. Warhammer 8.5 rules, other manufacturers' minis that could be used in the game, that sort of thing.

English 2000
10-08-2015, 21:46
Interesting. There are either a few very chatty people or a lot who are not going to play AOS.

I saw a poll from a Warhammer Facebook group that I belong to. 42% of respondents said they wouldn't be playing AOS. The total sample size was only 175ish people but I thought it was telling.

Avian
10-08-2015, 22:01
That's the same percentage who said they were Overwhelmingly Negative towards AoS on the last poll I did.

My impression is that the more dedicated to FB you were, the less likely you are to be positive towards AoS, while the people who enjoy AoS are more likely to be more casual (and more often enjoy 40K).

That would explain why the FB people post more.

I expect we could compare the average number of posts per day for people who like AoS and compare it with those who don't, but quite frankly I don't feel like doing all that work.

Pink Horror
11-08-2015, 02:30
As for AoS. I think it's a bungled release. As I said, if i'm making a game for 12 year olds, i'm going to make it 12 year old friendly across the board (simple rules, simple models, affordable price) and sell it in places a 12 year old or their parents can easily find. I like that the setting seems to be moving. I want there to be cool campaigns and new miniatures. And if GW wants to add a greater deal of complexity to it, they can.

In my opinion, 12 years old is old enough to read in volume, especially for the sort of nerdy type who is most likely to buy a miniatures game. I think it's around the right age for an interest in fantasy novels and RPG books and that sort of thing. A complex rulebook can get a child's imagination going about all the stuff that can be done in the game. I think it's the older folks who want a simpler game, after experiencing rules fatigue. As a kid I know I sought out the most complicated game I could understand. Complexity and depth were a bit harder to distinguish at that age. Kids play Pokemon cards and Magic: The Gathering and Yu-Gi-Oh, and all sorts of video games. I have the Adventure Time CCG set - that seems like something a 12 year old might also buy - and it's a pretty complicated game to play. There's a lot to keep track of, in a game that limits you to 4 creatures and much less maintenance compared to MTG.

I really doubt that trimming down the rules helps market to children. If anything, splitting up the book into separate, easier to purchase chunks while making the rules more voluminous in total might have been a better direction if appealing to actual children was a goal. It would be easier to buy over time or split up with friends, like D&D books. As an adult I think most of those D&D expansion books were garbage, but as a child in a game store it visually appeared to be a game with endless content. I can imagine some appeal to parents of children who are reluctant to learning a game themselves or who might think a dumbed-down game is what their kids want. I just don't think that works as a sustainable product. I would have hated AoS as a 12 year old, personally, much more than I dislike the concept now.

One other thing that CCGs get right: in my experience a child has even more need for a game that you can set up and play quickly. I remember being forced to end games early, because it's time for me or my friends to go home. This really killed RPGs for me when I was younger. The time doesn't matter so much as an adult when you are allowed to stay up late and leave your toys out. Any sort of before-game negotiation eats into that time unless the children involved are responsible enough to take care of it beforehand. You're shrinking the market even more with that requirement.

Meanwhile, maybe there are tons of war-gaming adults who see a set of minimal rules with no balance system as a refreshing change? I don't know. But I'm tired about hearing how great this is for the kiddies. It doesn't match my memories of what I wanted as a child or what the children I know today want either.

Edit: one note - I probably would have accepted the silly names more readily back then. That is all.

winterdyne
11-08-2015, 13:50
As a 12-year old I played Rogue Trader, WFB 3rd (with the original Mighty Empires and Warhammer Siege supplements), AD&D, and (Advanced) RuneQuest. Complex rulesets were not a turn-off.

I could also afford to buy something small (a blister of 5 metal models) every week, or something bigger every 2-3 weeks from general pocket money and buying cheaper lunches.

You just can't do that now, and that's where things have fallen apart in my opinion. My kids certainly can't afford Games Workshop's current product line without severely leveraging their treat money (birthdays, Christmas, good school reports etc). They're also money smart - they know that 36-40 WotR infantry / vikings etc for £20 is a much better buy than 10 Space Marines for £25. Though to be honest, they mostly prefer to spend pocket money on Hearthstone card packs.

williamsond
12-08-2015, 07:34
you kind of hit the nail on the head with that last post I too remeber saving lunch money and working a paper round to buy that blister pack at the weekend, now kids have no chance at buying their own stuff unless they have very understanding parents.

MiyamatoMusashi
19-08-2015, 09:03
For what little it's worth: my FLGS owner was lamenting with me how bad a game it is, but shrugged and said "it's selling alright, I guess".

Just to follow this up: went into my FLGS last night to pick up some paints, and it was "Age of Sigmar night". Initially there had apparently been a fair number of people going to these nights, alongside the game selling "alright, I guess". Last night there was one person, hopefully asking everyone who came into the store if they wanted a game. He didn't get any takers. Eventually some people started playing Magic and X-Wing instead.

Only another anecdote, of course, so still doesn't really tell us anything meaningful. (And will no doubt be countered by someone saying, "well, round HERE, AoS is going from strength to strength!!!!!"). Still - if this anecdote is repeated elsewhere, then even people who initially bought into AoS may be finding it has no lasting appeal.

Sephillion
19-08-2015, 14:56
The people I saw playing AoS were using their old armies. The LGS where they sell it hasn’t sold one copy of the box yet, I have no clue about the books or individual boxes though.

Buddy Bear
19-08-2015, 15:00
I've been comparing it to D&D 4E for partially that reason. I was supportive of 4E at first (although I was furious at the changes to the Forgotten Realms setting) and played it for a while, but eventually my mood on the game soured as it just became so monotonous. Use your Daily, use your Encounter power, now you're down to using the same exact At Will power over and over and over again. AoS seems to be the same, always ending wi a great big scrum in the middle, and that's not something I can see holding many people's attention for long.

Templar Ben
19-08-2015, 18:54
Even the average increase of 3% is somewhat mis-leading. GW do not do the annual price rise now, but a few products like paints recently had an increase which when combined with existing items with no increase gave the 3% average. However, when a new item is released it will be at price X. So you can release something at a crazy price point and as its new, GW can claim, well we didn't increase the price as that item didn't exist before. What I'd like to know is when something is re-done like the recent assault/devastator/7th ed. codex, will it be classed as a new item when factoring the average or do they use the price from the last version to say yes there was an increase? You could argue a new edition codex along with a new updated kit of an older one are technicially new items and so price them at whatever and claim there was no increase.

My guess would be if the SKU is new then it is new. Changing box art normally doesn't result in a new SKU but new sprues would.


I've been comparing it to D&D 4E for partially that reason. I was supportive of 4E at first (although I was furious at the changes to the Forgotten Realms setting) and played it for a while, but eventually my mood on the game soured as it just became so monotonous. Use your Daily, use your Encounter power, now you're down to using the same exact At Will power over and over and over again. AoS seems to be the same, always ending wi a great big scrum in the middle, and that's not something I can see holding many people's attention for long.

That is a good comparison from my experience.

Buddy Bear
21-08-2015, 05:07
This isn't scientific proof, but I just looked on Amazon and there are sellers selling the Age of Sigmar starter for as little as $79.40 (game stores and not individual sellers). Given what that retailer had to have paid to get it from GW, that sale only represents a $10.65 profit for that retailer. And there are a few other game store sellers selling copies for only a few dollars more. It certainly looks like there are at least a few game stores out there who're selling these boxes with the hopes of just getting their money back without the expectation of turning a meaningful profit off of it.

BeardMonk
21-08-2015, 11:10
Thats a really harsh and actually quite offensive stance to take on a store that houses a superb and very vibrant community of gamers (myself included) who play a lot more than WHFB. Its a store where you rarely see AoS played, but you see a lot of other systems regularly in use, particularly Magic, X-Wing, Maulifax, 40K and so on. Its a great store, with excellent staff, a superb community of gamers and a great atmosphere. I think your post was actually a really cheap and very unpleasant shot.

Agree. DS is an excellent store. Its a 10 minute walk from my work. Shame I never have the time to play any games there however. :-(

English 2000
21-08-2015, 12:31
It was Age of Sigmar night at my FLGS last night. They alternate between AOS and 40k on Thursdays (it was fantasy night before then).

There were 4 people playing AOS (only 3 on the AOS night before that).

4 people played 40k instead, I played Kings of War.

We usually go out for beers after the games. A few guys just showed up for that, they weren't even slightly interested in playing AOS.

Over beers they discussed picking up Warmahordes, trying Kings of War, and rhymed off all the guys they know who have dropped out of an upcoming AOS tournament to play on the 40k side instead.

Everything I'm seeing still points to a frosty reception on my local meta.

heliodorus04
21-08-2015, 15:51
I got turned away from my LGS X-Wing table on Monday. Only 8 tables and more than 16 players, including parents and their kids.
X-Wing curiosity is going way way up as December approaches...

Sephillion
21-08-2015, 17:40
EDIT: Wrong thread!!

Ollanius Pius
21-08-2015, 19:27
Out of curiosity, I'm tracking the number of posts in the AoS and WHFB forums at Warhammer.org.uk (as they have one of each). So far the WHFB ones are in the lead 4:1.

Good to know, then that is where I will be heading. This forum has outlived its usefulness with the death of Warhammer. :)

O.G-Palmer
22-08-2015, 17:39
Only a few box sets have sold at my store post release date, with a few who pre-ordered them. Most people who are playing AOS are just using what they already had. I did pre order the set, gave it a good go to see how it worked and to be honest I lost interest after 5-10 games.

I painted the figures up and sold them as a set in the end...

Mudkip
24-08-2015, 17:28
This from another forum, a guy who claims to have relatives working at GW:

"It's not selling well at all. Its moving slower than fantasy and stores are even getting lower new release quantities to give the impression that its selling. Empty shelves for new releases = popular. "

This isn't a verified fact of course to treat it with a pinch of salt. Imagine if it's true though and AoS has not outsold fantasy. It means GW went to all the trouble and expense of creating AoS and pissed off a bunch of customers without getting anything out of it. A catastrophic failure if true.

Animal310
24-08-2015, 18:09
All they needed to do was bring out a decent warhammer skirmish game and maybe some specialist games to act as feeders for 9th edition Fantasy Battle.

Instead they destroy the setting.

Nothing I've seen about AOS interests me in the slightest.

It's just another in a long line of calamities.

None of the limited edition stuff has sold out or anywhere near it by the looks of it as none of the 'last 100 copies' like messages have appeared.

Vazalaar
24-08-2015, 18:13
I tend to believe it as I think AoS failed big time.

I even think that the End Times were more succesful than the AoS launch.

Their next finanicial report will probably not look lika a total disaster thanks to plastic 30K marines.

If AoS is indeed a big flop, what will happen in the future (fire JJ?)
Stubbornly push AoS for the next two years and than if it doesn't meet the finanical expectations, scrap fantasy?

Animal310
24-08-2015, 19:57
I really don't think it will last longer than a year, if that....

I feel there are some parallels with Epic 40,000 which was a complete flop (probably to do with the abstract nature of the rules). It bombed and was dropped after six months despite loads of stuff in the pipeline.

At that time though Games Workshop still had other games.......