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Silent Surrender
18-07-2015, 20:59
All of the old gw staff that created warhammer opened a new bussiness and took over oldhammer?

Its almost the same story as the video game company Rareware. All talent left the studio, Nintendo sold it and it became crap, Pretty much like GW.

Now the talent that left Rareware has started a new Company, Platonic games, maybe you have heard of it? I dont know what the old timers of GW are doing these Days though.

ScruffMan
18-07-2015, 21:08
Probably wanting to work on their own projects where they're the head guy or out of the business I'd have thought? I'd love it if it happened but would they have the same drive for building on the same game system that they in their minds finished years ago?

Tokamak
18-07-2015, 21:13
Media companies have a much lower point of entry than companies selling material goods.

Silent Surrender
18-07-2015, 22:07
Do you really Think they are "done" with warhammer? Dont you Think they fondly remember the birth of this game and the Environment that was back then? I didnt even create warhammer and I feel so at home in the setting, I doubt they are feeling "done" with it. What they where "done" with, i Think, was the greed that runs warhammer now.

They wouldnt have to create models, just update rules and make tweaks and maybe even invent new things and armies according to the old World, and they wouldnt have to answer to any shareholders.

Ultraloth
18-07-2015, 22:15
Do you really Think they are "done" with warhammer? Dont you Think they fondly remember the birth of this game and the Environment that was back then? I didnt even create warhammer and I feel so at home in the setting, I doubt they are feeling "done" with it. What they where "done" with, i Think, was the greed that runs warhammer now.

They wouldnt have to create models, just update rules and make tweaks and maybe even invent new things and armies according to the old World, and they wouldnt have to answer to any shareholders.
You do realize that GW still owns Warhammer don't you? That might throw a bit of a wrench in this plan.

stroller
18-07-2015, 23:13
You do realize that GW still owns Warhammer don't you? That might throw a bit of a wrench in this plan.

Aw shucks, just one TINY little thing.... and you have to pick upon it...

Oh - and the fact that they're working for other companies now...

DarKolia
18-07-2015, 23:21
Mantic and warlord games are mostly run by old GW staffer
Studio McVey also... (But their game are not as interesting as the two previous companies' from what I have heard but their minis are awesome...)

Flipmode
19-07-2015, 00:36
Clickbait thread title, exciting stuff.

jet_palero
19-07-2015, 00:59
All of the old gw staff that created warhammer opened a new bussiness and took over oldhammer?

Its almost the same story as the video game company Rareware. All talent left the studio, Nintendo sold it and it became crap, Pretty much like GW.

Now the talent that left Rareware has started a new Company, Platonic games, maybe you have heard of it? I dont know what the old timers of GW are doing these Days though.

Most of the "old GW staff" have left long ago. Jervis is the only one left, and he's the one that seems to hate competitive play.

Silent Surrender
19-07-2015, 07:27
Ofcourse I know GW still owns warhammer, didnt mention it because I didnt Think it was necessary. But they killed warhammer because it couldnt be copyrighted right?

stroller
19-07-2015, 07:43
We can speculate that copyright and trademarks are the reason - "orc" "goblin" "empire" etc are generic - but we don't know for sure. The fluff is GW copyright, so can't be copied. Someone else could write a rule set for fantasy/medieval mass battle game, but, for me, while it might be fun, and I might well play it, it wouldn't be "warhammer", however one defines that.

Griefbringer
19-07-2015, 08:19
Mantic and warlord games are mostly run by old GW staffer
Studio McVey also...

As for others, Perry twins are now dedicating their time to their historical miniature company - metal and plastic miniatures, but no rules. Actually, they already started this company in the last decade while they were still employed by GW.

Tuomas Pirinen is still in the computer games world as far as I know.

3eland
19-07-2015, 08:34
It is still called Warhammer. Just now it is Warhammer: Age of Sigmar. So no they did not kill Warhammer. They just "killed" the setting (well advanced it).

Griefbringer
19-07-2015, 09:21
Someone else could write a rule set for fantasy/medieval mass battle game, but, for me, while it might be fun, and I might well play it, it wouldn't be "warhammer", however one defines that.

It is worth keeping in mind that game mechanisms as concepts cannot be protected by copyright (nor by patent, at least within Europe), though their specific written forms can be. So one can legally write a new game that borrows a lot of game mechanisms from WHFB, as long as they are written distinctively.

However, the term "Warhammer" is very much trademarked by GW, so trying to use that as part of a product name for your own game would be extremely bad idea. So the game would need to have some distinctive name, such as Battleaxe, Combat Club, Melee Mace, Skirmish Scimitar etc.

As for the original proposition of putting a bunch of former GW designers together and tasking them with writing a new "definitive" set of rules, there might be some troubles in getting them to come up with a common vision, especially for the ones that have been absent for years and have been working on different types of games. So if you gave Rick Priestley, Tuomas Pirinen, Alessio Cavatore and Mat Ward the task of writing a new set of rules, the end results would probably be three different variants of WHFB, plus a 28 mm version of revised Warmaster rules.

innerwolf
19-07-2015, 09:49
..such as Battleaxe, Combat Club, Melee Mace, Skirmish Scimitar etc.

They are all awesome, but Skirmish Scimitar gets the price :D:D:D

Weavetoucher
19-07-2015, 10:58
Well Warlord was started by Paul Sawyer and John Stallard, they work and have had rulesets from Rick Priestley and Alessio Cavatore, Andy Chambers worked on either dust or dust tactics and Bryan Ansell and Kev Adams are doing stuff at Wargames Foundry. If you could get them all together in a room it would likely end up a 28mm version of Warmaster with heaps of narrative stuff thrown on top. d100 tables as far as the eyes can see. Rick seems to prefer Warmaster much more to Warhammer an awful lot of the Warlord products evolved from Warmaster rather then Warhammer.

Kisanis
19-07-2015, 18:52
Mantic and warlord games are mostly run by old GW staffer
Studio McVey also... (But their game are not as interesting as the two previous companies' from what I have heard but their minis are awesome...)
This is pretty much it.

I like bolt action. I like sci fi.

I will almost certainly like antares.

If warlord bought up partnered with mantic... gw would have some serious issues on their plate.


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TheFang
19-07-2015, 19:24
I will almost certainly like antares.

If warlord bought up partnered with mantic... gw would have some serious issues on their plate.
Unfortunately the background and model design on the SF stuff is a bit iffy. If Warlord poached Jes Goodwin then GW would be in trouble.

Griefbringer
19-07-2015, 19:30
They are all awesome, but Skirmish Scimitar gets the price :D:D:D

I did not bother to register a trademark for it, so if somebody wants it...

That said, if I really wanted to make a game with that sort of name, it would probably be called Skirmishing Scimitars, and would probably involve competing warbands involved in treasure hunting on small islands, brawling in lawless port towns etc. all connected with some sort of campaign system. Common feature would be that all of the warbands would have plenty of options for scimitars, sabres, cutlasses, falchions and other single-edged swards. This would include Arab corsairs with scimitars, Orc freebooters with scimitars, Sea elves with sabres, Pirate Zombies with cutlasses, Hobgoblin renegades with scimitars, Dwarf raiders with cuttlasses, Chaos Cult Corsairs with falchions, Goatman galleoners with scimitars, Ninja Pirates with katanas, Halfling buccaneers with small scimitars etc.

big squig
19-07-2015, 20:02
YOu mean mantic?

KoW is written by alessio cavatore and even has a forward by rick prestly

The_Real_Chris
20-07-2015, 00:56
Why would they? They all want to write better rule systems. Warhammer by the end was a bit of a mess with declining popularity.

There is certainly space on the market for a warhammer clone. Something that would play slower then KoW, probably have some form of alternating activation and where each model counts for something. So both players feel involved and care about each of the models.

When I win the lottery I will retire and write and test it for you :)

dooms33ker
20-07-2015, 02:12
Anyone can make a derivative of Warhammer without having the license or any of the rights from Games-Workshop. You can make an Oldhammer game right now if you want to. Don't use trademarked characters, names, places, imagery, and make sure the rules are phrased, i.e. expressed, differently from Warhammer. It is legally permitted in the US to take every single rule from 8th edition, paraphrase it in your own unique way and sell it as your own game.

Just look at Bolt Action and how similar it is to 40k. Former GW designer Alessio Cavatore lifted entire concepts from Warhammer 40k and Epic Armageddon, tweaked some of the rules, streamlined many of them and infused it with a historical WW2 setting. A sizable constituent of 40k gamers disenchanted with the game moved onto Bolt Action precisely because it features much of what they like about 40k while eschewing a lot of what they don't.

Rules mechanics are easily replicated -- you cannot copyright them, at least in the United States -- but the expression of Warhammer as produced by GW is likely never to be replicated by another company because the IP is GWs most valuable asset, and one they want complete control of. They are exercising that control now by consolidating their intellectual property to 100% trademark-able properties and slowly phasing IP that can be replicated by a miniatures game competitor. Given time a company will release some sort of warhammer replacement that stays true to GW's game. Will it have all your favorite armies and units? Probably not, but it could be close if it sticks to generic fantasy tropes, e.g. orcs and goblins, demons, elves, undead.

Avatars of War have Warthrone (http://www.avatars-of-war.com/eng/web/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=59&Itemid=51), a fantasy rule-set for large scale mass movement battles that has been available for over three years and features a few armies compatible with Warhammer. In fact, it has an unofficial Warhammer Vampire Counts army list printed on the company's site, which is quite puzzling. There's also Kings of War, also written by Cavatore, though the game differs considerably from Warhammer, both in aesthetic and mechanics.

On the subject of Rare, the video game company, they owned the rights to their original IP because they were working as a second party developer for Nintendo, who had a 49% stake in the company, according to Rare's Wikipedia article. They were never direct employees of Nintendo, but rather under contract, unlike all the authors, designers, and sculptors who worked for and were employed by Games-Workshop; their work is GW's in whole. Nintendo's loss of the IP that appeared exclusively on their consoles as part of their partnership with Rare is the sort of situation GW will avoid at all costs by having all IP it is associated with lock, stock and barrel. And simply because they have developed names and concepts which are stronger copyrights for Age of Sigmar does not mean the will completely abandon 25 years of IP. Note how the new AOS aesthetic and fluff background are absent from the forthcoming Total War: Warhammer video game. Evidently GW is still very much vested in its storied IP, even if the new miniatures and rules do not reflect that.

The real question is, do enough fans want an Oldhammer game for a company to invest a lot of time and resources into making a good one? It seems that following in GW's failure is not what most wargames companies want to do. A game that captures the essence of Warhammer's rules and armies while innovating and streamlining is what the community needs, not a retread of the past.

HelloKitty
20-07-2015, 02:28
If the company is interested in making money I'd say that a warhammer-clone is probably not high on the priority order of things. This is the era of fast games, skirmish style games, low model count games based around combo popping.

A warhammer-clone would be best served as something not created for the purposes of a company trying to turn a profit, because I feel there is little profit to be had there though there is a fairly attentive audience.

Kisanis
20-07-2015, 02:38
Unfortunately the background and model design on the SF stuff is a bit iffy. If Warlord poached Jes Goodwin then GW would be in trouble.


If the company is interested in making money I'd say that a warhammer-clone is probably not high on the priority order of things. This is the era of fast games, skirmish style games, low model count games based around combo popping.

A warhammer-clone would be best served as something not created for the purposes of a company trying to turn a profit, because I feel there is little profit to be had there though there is a fairly attentive audience.
True, warlord has the potential to be the pre-eminent gaming company for this hobby if it was able to pick up the right smaller fish and bring them into the fold.


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The_Real_Chris
20-07-2015, 03:07
Because Warhammer is something of a mess rules wise it is going to be far harder to get a common tourney ruleset like say the EpicUK stuff (34 tourney lists and counting http://epic-uk.co.uk/wp/army-lists/ ) as they built off a stable GW published core.

Scribe of Khorne
20-07-2015, 03:12
If the company is interested in making money I'd say that a warhammer-clone is probably not high on the priority order of things. This is the era of fast games, skirmish style games, low model count games based around combo popping.

A warhammer-clone would be best served as something not created for the purposes of a company trying to turn a profit, because I feel there is little profit to be had there though there is a fairly attentive audience.

Agreed. Outside 30K (a niche of a niche) all my games right now are Kill Team (Heralds of Ruin) sized.