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some_scrub
19-07-2015, 18:31
I'm flipping through my copy of the Age of Sigmar hardback right now, and I was wondering if anyone had noticed anything interesting in it. There doesn't seem to be much discussion of it.

There were a few things that stood out to me:

The warscrolls we got were pretty random, it seems. Kind of halfway between what we already had and something else that will come later. There seems to be a picture with a Prosecutor with a spear and a big round shield (it almost looks like a hoplon) but the warscroll for the Prosecutor is exactly the same one as the starter box. It only has the option for dual hammers. With the liberators, we get the full wascroll that has all the equipment options in the multipart plastic kit. That's pretty weird.

Another thing that seemed really strange is the way the battleplans are laid out. I had assumed that they would give some kind of recommended 'historical' armies that actually fought in such a battle, more like the campaign books we've seen in the past, and then they could provide some guidance on how to adapt the scenario to your own collection. Instead the scenarios are very generic and read a lot like the ones in the 8th edition book. Unlike those scenarios, they're all totally asymmetrical, and some provide a huge advantage to one side or the other. (For example, in The Trap, the ambusher gets to deploy second, surround the invader, go first, have extra rending in the first shooting phase, and benefit from a bonus to cover in the first round. Plus some other stuff...) It looks like an awesome scenario and super interesting to play a few times, but it seems tough to know how to set up some armies that are roughly evenly matched, given all the bonuses the ambusher gets.

The only guidance we're given on that is that you ONLY use the Sudden Death rules if the invader has 2x as many models as the ambusher....and after you choose your armies (in secret?), if either person has at least 1/3 more models, that person has to play as the side with the disadvantage. If not, you dice off to see who gets the advantage. To me just picking armies in secret and finding out which side is which seems likely to lead to incredibly lopsided games.

My final comment about the book is that the fluff seems very messy and poorly organized. It's very had to understand when things are actually happening relative to one another, especially since lots of things are told through little sidebars and inset boxes. It also doesn't help that the story spans many ages and many realms but doesn't include many maps or timelines. Some of the stories are kind of cool individually but don't seem like they get the attention they deserve and probably really don't make any sense under any amount of scrutiny. In the one where Grimnir fights Vulcatrix, there's this throwaway line about how Vulcatrix is the 'mythic creature that first birthed flame into the worlds,' and then boom! She's dead one paragraph later. So are we meant to take throwaway line at face value? Is this creature actually the creator of all fire? How does she fit into the cosmology? There are so many questions that could be asked there that probably don't have satisfactory answers. Instead we just move on to the next page where it talks about how there are lots of orcs in all the realms (How did they get there? Dunno.) Overall, the new fluff seems oriented around have lots of sweet moments and lends itself to awesome illustrations, but I'm not sure it's actually at all coherent.

Chainaxeisback
19-07-2015, 18:48
I think the fluff is somewhat chaotic (not only as in "chaos centerd", but also as laid out in a somewhat untidy way), but, overall, I was expecting worse. Given the painful months of rumours I had expected there would be no place for next to all old armies in this new "mortal realms" thing. Apparently, they made a half decent job inserting non TK undead, skaven and even orcs/orruks as well as wood aelfs in this new settings. Other armies fare a bit worse, but it looks like the only ones to go entirely extinct are bretonnians. Dark/high aelfs are also only barely hinted at. and no model is shown for them in the book. Same goes for the dwarves (of whatever they are called now), but they are described in some more detail ,and get some small panel art for themselves. There are, howevr, many openings for potentially new stuff. Overall, this new fledgling universe is, of course, nowhere as rich as the Old World, but I am not surprised: after all, the true detailing of the Old World begun with WHFRP. As long as mass battles were the only concern, GW did not spend much time detailing nations and characters, quite understandably so, I would ad. On the plus side, to the risk of sounding like a fanboy, I dig most of the art!

TheFang
19-07-2015, 19:28
Another thing that seemed really strange is the way the battleplans are laid out. I had assumed that they would give some kind of recommended 'historical' armies that actually fought in such a battle, more like the campaign books we've seen in the past, and then they could provide some guidance on how to adapt the scenario to your own collection. Instead the scenarios are very generic and read a lot like the ones in the 8th edition book.

So the scenarios give you absolutely no clue as to how to balance a game? :eek:

Gharak
19-07-2015, 20:35
Nope didn't seem to from my skim read through it on Saturday. It just gives an overview of the scenario, setup and victory conditions. Quite dissapointing really.

Didn't bother picking it up as it's anot her reasonable expense for a game I'm not sure how long I'll play for. Being that a large chunk of all the material so far is a lot of studio photos it didn't seem to be particularly good value for money.

Niall78
19-07-2015, 20:42
So the scenarios give you absolutely no clue as to how to balance a game? :eek:

That's strange. Many posters were saying that these scenarios would provide army balance and help guide players through interesting balanced match-ups.

Instead we seem to be getting 'scenarios' so lacking in content they wouldn't be classed as scenarios by any other games company. I'm seeing a pattern emerging with this release.

HelloKitty
19-07-2015, 20:45
The scenarios have a lot of content, they just don't really have any type of balancing mechanism that is any different from the core rule pamphlet.

AngryAngel
19-07-2015, 20:53
I really think people have to start coming to grips with the fact there may not be any balancing done with GW on this game and that your going to need to house rule the game to get it to work for long term. Which leaves play it out of book, as an amusing diversion and reason to roll dice and make movie quotes, or find a comp/house rule system to try and make into an enjoyable long term experience. I don't believe these books will really fix anything people already find broken.

Holier Than Thou
19-07-2015, 20:53
So still no official way to balance forces, I wonder if all the people who kept saying 'wait and see, the scenarios will tell you how to balance.' will now admit they were wrong or will they keep defending GW and suggest something else they release later, maybe the Limited Edition Sigmarrule Sigmarulator, will do this and we should 'wait and Sigmarsee.'

AngryAngel
19-07-2015, 20:55
I hate the roll out of this game as much anyone, but its a bit early to say they won't, ever, try a hand at balance. I'd say the next month or two will show the path. If by then, they've done nothing but release overly expensive scenario books that offer nothing but awful fluff and some battle ideas without balancing touches, I'd say they aren't coming.

Teurastaja
19-07-2015, 20:56
Can someone explain what 9 realms really are? Dimensions, planets, continents?

Spiney Norman
19-07-2015, 21:37
Can someone explain what 9 realms really are? Dimensions, planets, continents?

Think interconnected realms/planes of existence like in the marvel universe, azyrheim is Asgard, realm of fire is Midgard etc.

So in conclusion there is still no reasonable way to play an even-handed game of AoS outside of the starter set scenarios without developing your own points system, you can't even take the scenarios from the hardback book and play through them because they don't have detailed force lists balanced around the objectives?

I think I just lost my last shred of interest in this game, there is a limit to what I will buy just because it has the GW logo on it. Even if Angry Angel is right and they are eventually going to introduce some kind of balancing mechanic what the hell are we supposed to do in the mean time? You don't expect to buy a new car and have to wait six months for the engine to be installed so you can actually use it properly.

Rakariel
19-07-2015, 21:46
So in conclusion there is still no reasonable way to play an even-handed game of AoS outside of the starter set scenarios without developing your own points system, you can't even take the scenarios from the hardback book and play through them because they don't have detailed force lists balanced around the objectives?

Pretty much, there is no way to balance it apart from creating your own system. I have been purchasing alot of models since I started the hobby nearly two decades ago. I have never felt this discouraged to buy anything and its surely not because of the models...

Mateobard
19-07-2015, 21:58
so, we are around yet another corner and still no real attempt at game balance, which ought to be the last bastion for the folks who still insist that this game is secretly an example of genius game design. Can we all be done pretending that AoS is a quality battle game?

The bearded one
19-07-2015, 22:04
That's strange. Many posters were saying that these scenarios would provide army balance and help guide players through interesting balanced match-ups.

Instead we seem to be getting 'scenarios' so lacking in content they wouldn't be classed as scenarios by any other games company. I'm seeing a pattern emerging with this release.

I don't think they were really "saying" as much as they were "hoping".

Holier Than Thou
19-07-2015, 22:06
so, we are around yet another corner and still no real attempt at game balance, which ought to be the last bastion for the folks who still insist that this game is secretly an example of genius game design. Can we all be done pretending that AoS is a quality battle game?

No, no, no. Just wait, if we all spend enough on dice shakers and combat gauges and books and stuff then arrange them in a super, special way it will tell us how to buy the rulesy rules book written in authentic Sigmarillian. Then we just need to buy the Sigmarillian translation device to discover where to buy the balancing mechanics annual.

Spiney Norman
19-07-2015, 22:08
I don't think they were really "saying" as much as they were "hoping".

More like disbelief that they would put out a game without all the necessary rules to actually get it working, the longer they leave it without any kind of balancing mechanism the more people will just drop it and not look back.

Niall78
19-07-2015, 22:09
I don't think they were really "saying" as much as they were "hoping".

Very true that. I had a tiny bit of hope myself. AoS is the rock on which hopes are dashed.

ShadorVD
19-07-2015, 22:27
There are battalions in the end of the book - three for sigmars, and one for chaos and sylvans. They describe ready to play armies.

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AngryAngel
19-07-2015, 22:30
Some people had very little hope to begin with, however I would honestly like to be wrong and for them to surprise me. If the books released will simply be, this, I'll just have to give them a pass. The fluff isn't worth even a 1/4th of the cost and quite honestly I think the players could invent their own much more riveting combat scenes to recreate. Which leaves the book as a very large batch of model photos ( whoop ) and some new art with some formations for just a couple factions and then only some models.

TheFang
19-07-2015, 22:33
I think I just lost my last shred of interest in this game, there is a limit to what I will buy just because it has the GW logo on it.
Welcome to the Dark Side. :cries:
More like disbelief that they would put out a game without all the necessary rules to actually get it working, the longer they leave it without any kind of balancing mechanism the more people will just drop it and not look back.Unbelievable, isn't it? That a company like GW could release a product so shabby and half thought out. The rules are like something stapled onto a bag of plastic army men as an afterthought.

GrandmasterWang
20-07-2015, 04:17
Lol @ these comments. I actually do expect GW to come up with some type of balancing mechanism but certainly not before the game has even been out a month.

Gw never does things fast and while the rules are free (great), GW is so greedy that they would definitely charge a lot for 'points' or an equivalent.

I'd guess that maybe in a year or something when the model releases have dried up GW will release a 'comp pack' or something for mega bucks but by then the people clamoring for it will be long gone!

I personally have not actually had any issues in my 'practice' games but then I play with a very experienced and chilled out group for the most part so we are actually trying to have 'roughly balanced' sample games so our 'eyeball it' method has worked fine.

8th is a much better game for mass battles though. AOS is more of an amusing skirmish diversion for me.

GW imo will bring in a 'balancing' mechanism but it won't be points. I'd guess that they will do something more along the lines of 3-4 set balanced armies per (new) faction. Ie, 4 factions x 4 armies each = 16 'roughly balanced' forces to choose from for tournaments and the like.

Imo it's safe to say that 'list building' as we knew it in WHFB is gone for good in AOS. Thankfully we still have all the list building we want in all the old army books. GW clearly has gone in a completely different direction with AOS.

To the OP thanks a lot for the information on the hardback book. Please post more once you have tried various things/scenarios in it.

Are the 'battalions' at the end of the book roughly balanced vs each other? My guess is that GW intended them to be.

Ie.. if you want 'us' to balance the game for you then you must buy this, this, this and this

some_scrub
20-07-2015, 04:40
Are the 'battalions' at the end of the book roughly balanced vs each other? My guess is that GW intended them to be.


There are 4 warscroll battalions at the back of the book. Two are identical to the ones in the Age of Sigmar starter set (ie take the whole contents of the box for each faction). One is identical to the Guardians of the Deepwood warscroll in the Wood Elf compendium (3 treelords/treelord ancients, 2 units of dryads, and 2 forests). The other is an all-heroes battalion which consists of one of each type of Sigmarine Lord.

I think the Khorne and basic sigmarine one are probably roughly balanced against each other. Obviously the 3 heroes one is much weaker than those 2 and doesn't make much sense as a standalone force. For the one with 3 treemen, my guess is that there's probably some number of dryads you could take that would make it balanced, but I have no idea what that number would be. Dryads are min size 5+, get a big bonus at 12 per unit (the size of a box) and the bundle on the GW website comes with 36 so you could have 2 units of 18. That's probably too many for a fair fight though, since the treemen are 12 wounds per model. Basically, I don't think it's a case of the warscroll battalions being balanced against each other so much as it is a case of the 2 sides in the starter set being roughly balanced.

Anyway, the main thing that struck me as strange is that the scenarios (Battleplans) I looked at were relatively interesting, but didn't do much to tell you a specific story or give you any idea how much of a disadvantage a particular side was at. They were all like 'Here are some rules to play out an ambush. The dryads ambushed the Nurgle chaos forces many times in the realm of life, but ambushes happen all the time so use whatever miniatures you'd like.'

Honestly, I was really looking forward to the 'buy x and y to play out battle z as it happened' kind of stuff, especially if they're arranged in a series of linked battles (think Sigmar's Blood) because that's a good way of giving 2 players who game together often a series of concrete goals and a way to build up to something.

GrandmasterWang
20-07-2015, 04:57
There are 4 warscroll battalions at the back of the book. Two are identical to the ones in the Age of Sigmar starter set (ie take the whole contents of the box for each faction). One is identical to the Guardians of the Deepwood warscroll in the Wood Elf compendium (3 treelords/treelord ancients, 2 units of dryads, and 2 forests). The other is an all-heroes battalion which consists of one of each type of Sigmarine Lord.

I think the Khorne and basic sigmarine one are probably roughly balanced against each other. Obviously the 3 heroes one is much weaker than those 2 and doesn't make much sense as a standalone force. For the one with 3 treemen, my guess is that there's probably some number of dryads you could take that would make it balanced, but I have no idea what that number would be. Dryads are min size 5+, get a big bonus at 12 per unit (the size of a box) and the bundle on the GW website comes with 36 so you could have 2 units of 18. That's probably too many for a fair fight though, since the treemen are 12 wounds per model. Basically, I don't think it's a case of the warscroll battalions being balanced against each other so much as it is a case of the 2 sides in the starter set being roughly balanced.

Anyway, the main thing that struck me as strange is that the scenarios (Battleplans) I looked at were relatively interesting, but didn't do much to tell you a specific story or give you any idea how much of a disadvantage a particular side was at. They were all like 'Here are some rules to play out an ambush. The dryads ambushed the Nurgle chaos forces many times in the realm of life, but ambushes happen all the time so use whatever miniatures you'd like.'

Honestly, I was really looking forward to the 'buy x and y to play out battle z as it happened' kind of stuff, especially if they're arranged in a series of linked battles (think Sigmar's Blood) because that's a good way of giving 2 players who game together often a series of concrete goals and a way to build up to something.

Thanks a lot for the additional information.

So do any of the scenarios provided use the 'battalions'? Ie, the 3 Sigmar lords vs.... ? If not then I don't see the point of them listing those specific battalions given they are not balanced vs each other

So it seems from what you are saying that the scenarios don't really link directly to the story in the book. Did I get that wrong?

Are any of them set out in a series of linked battles like what you were looking forwards to?

If you have read it now what was your take on the Sylvaneth/Wood elf background. Did you like it?

Does the end of the book/scenarios seem to lead into another upcoming book?

Cheers

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some_scrub
20-07-2015, 06:23
Thanks a lot for the additional information.

So do any of the scenarios provided use the 'battalions'? Ie, the 3 Sigmar lords vs.... ? If not then I don't see the point of them listing those specific battalions given they are not balanced vs each other

So it seems from what you are saying that the scenarios don't really link directly to the story in the book. Did I get that wrong?

Are any of them set out in a series of linked battles like what you were looking forwards to?

If you have read it now what was your take on the Sylvaneth/Wood elf background. Did you like it?

Does the end of the book/scenarios seem to lead into another upcoming book?

Cheers

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk

Fair warning, I haven't actually read the whole book yet. I skimmed it quickly yesterday and I'm about halfway through reading it cover to cover, so there might be some things I have missed.

There don't seem to be any scenarios that use the specific battalions or any other kind of specific forces. The point of listing them as battalions seems to be the little buffs you get for taking a themed force. For example, if you take the whole Sigmarine contents of the AoS box set, those guys get +1 leadership (er... Bravery) and can deep strike. If you take the 3 heroes, you can keep them apart and boost the bravery of all nearby units, or you can get them into the same combat and they can do a cool combo attack where they combine powers to push back some nearby enemy units and stun them. For the Sylvaneth you get to place the forests wherever you'd like (after all other terrain is set up) and then deep strike out of the woods. So they're pretty cool (minor?) special abilities that reward themed forces, but they're not really linked to scenarios or balance.

The scenarios are definitely linked to the story in the book but only sort of tangentially. I think it's best to give an example: there's a story about Nurgle's invasion of the life realm (It's called the War of Life ;) ) and a few pages into that fluff section, it describes a battle where the Nurgle army gets ambushed. Then they stop the narrative for a few pages and give you some rules for fighting that kind of battle (a Battleplan) and rules for fighting in that particular region (Time of War Rules). In this case the Battleplan is called The Trap and has a funky deployment and the ambusher gets a bunch of bonuses including some I mentioned above. The Time of War rules for different regions basically have some wacky, (but mostly minor) rules that let you theme your battle to specific regions. For this particular region of the Life Realm called the Greenglades, there are rules for forests sometimes just popping up out of nowhere, guys healing a bit on a lucky battleshock test (which doesn't make a whole lot of sense because multiple wound dudes don't take the test that often), and a bonus spell for all wizards (Shield of Thorns). Interestingly, it also contains a special themed table for the bonus you get in your next game (which replaces that weird one in the 4 page rules).

Then after you get through those rules, the story continues some more and the Sigmarines come in and fight a battle where they break through the chaos lines to get to something or other. Flip over the page, and you get a Battleplan called Break Through which they explicitly tell you can be used to represent this particular battle (again no lists provided) but also any other appropriate situation, for example a bunch of Khorne dudes trying to break through a line of lizardmen who are guarding a magic axe.

Overall the way these are all presented and interwoven through the story is very cool and makes for an interesting read, and it's nice that they explicitly encourage you to adapt these scenarios to your own needs (separating out the Environment and Scenario rules helps a lot with this). I can even imagine it providing some fun games, but it's almost as if they just skipped the final hard step of games development where you actually play some games with the rules you wrote and see if they make sense.

But overall, no, there don't seem to be any 'linked battles' like we're used to: play models x and y against each other for mission z, and any surviving troops get added to the appropriate side in the next battle etc.

I haven't read through the full narrative of the War of Life yet, so I will probably know more later, but I did read description of the origin of these new Sylvaneth which comes earlier in the book, which is kinda interesting. Short version is that Alarielle (who is now the Goddess of Life) doesn't like hanging out with the other gods in Asgard ( I mean Azyrheim... sorry) so she just goes to chill by herself in the Realm of Life. But she gets lonely so she takes out a bag of seeds she brought from the World-That-Was and scatters them and then some dryads and treelords pop up. Honestly my short version has about as much content as the actual version in the book, so it's pretty thin, but at least there's some effort made to explain how these non-god creatures survived the world exploding, unlike a bunch of the other stuff.

I haven't read the full thing, so I don't know exactly how it builds up, but I can tell you that the last story is called A Glimpse Beyond and ends with '...' :p

But yeah, it seems like they're obviously setting up for an ongoing story and the last events in the book are a battle against Tzeentch's minion Ephryx which ends in a blinding flash of light. When the general of the battle respawns (sorry... is 'reforged') back in Sigmarheim (it's literally like a Call of Duty game), Sigmar asks him about the battle and based on the general's description Sigmar thinks that this is where the Chaos gods are keeping Ghal Maraz. To be continued...

My guess is the next book will describe, among other things, Sigmar's attempt to recover Ghal Maraz from some Tzeentch guys in the realm of metal, with more new warscrolls, battle plans, and rules for fighting in Metal Land (probably your armor saves get better... or worse... it could go either way). Probably it won't be quite the same format as this one though, since about half of this book is the kind of muddled history of the Ages of Myth and Chaos, which don't really make a ton of sense.

Hopefully that gives you a taste of what the book is like. Overall, I think it's very 'cool' and has some awesome artwork (Grimnir fighting the Mother of Salamanders is especially awesome, but also sad because they both die so probably never any models). Some of the stories are fun, although many follow the same basic outline of 'Chaos was in some place and was killing lots of people and it was bad but then Stormcast eternals came on some lightning and killed all the bad guys.' Also the setting is very different, so it's probably not to everyone's taste. I'm pretty open to the new stuff and even I threw up in my mouth a little bit when I saw Sigmar's space station which he built around the core of the World that Was. As a setting with cool stories and a nice toolkit of rules to build your own narratives from and an excuse for lots of 'sweet' models, I think it's a success. As a 'game' in the normal sense of the world, I think it falls short.

Vos
20-07-2015, 09:03
Or perhaps, (if your primary aim is to sell shed loads of models to boys aged 8-14 who will mostly only be in the hobby for 2 - 3 years), you actually WANT to push a game where the person with the deepest pockets and the latest shiny new (and more powerful) units win?
For the rest of us grown ups, we will have to sort ourselves out.

Vos

Holier Than Thou
20-07-2015, 09:11
Games Workshop still needed to hold your hand to play with toy soldiers. There is no balance. Balance is what you make of it. Seemingly there aren't a great deal of adults in this hobby now a days. Do gw have to do everything for you, have gw fans not got any imagination. Is it so hard for two hobbyists now a days to come to a agreement on a game without being a total ***** to one another. Either I am lucky and my local area has sensible gamers or I seemingly live in another dimension which could be right based on the forums as of late

Or maybe if we wanted to play a game of toy soldiers with no rules we would buy a pack of green army men for 1 instead of investing time and money on building and painting units of expensive models.

Attilla
20-07-2015, 10:17
I'm pretty certain GW will eventually come out with some form of balancing. What makes me worried, however, is their obsession with using model count for their balancing at the moment. If that carries into their final balancing work, I doubt it to work well :/

Ultraloth
20-07-2015, 11:40
Or maybe if we wanted to play a game of toy soldiers with no rules we would buy a pack of green army men for 1 instead of investing time and money on building and painting units of expensive models.

That's assuming that all customers are attracted to the models exclusively (or even primarely) as game pieces. That's very much not the case. Apart from the painters, I know plenty of people who buy boatloads of GW minis without actually ever gaming with them. Many of them entertain the notion that they will game with them, but in practice they rarely ever do. There is at least a portion of GW's customer base who are indeed collectors first and wargamers second. (Whether GW's policy of trying to expand that group while shifting away from the wargamers will be succesfull is another matter of course.)

Hoffa
20-07-2015, 11:49
That's assuming that all customers are attracted to the models exclusively (or even primarely) as game pieces. That's very much not the case. Apart from the painters, I know plenty of people who buy boatloads of GW minis without actually ever gaming with them. Many of them entertain the notion that they will game with them, but in practice they rarely ever do. There is at least a portion of GW's customer base who are indeed collectors first and wargamers second. (Whether GW's policy of trying to expand that group while shifting away from the wargamers will be succesfull is another matter of course.)

I think you have gotten the mentality of these gamers wrong. These people are not collectors. They are wannabe gamers that just never manage to get around to it. If there is no game to dream about playing they will not be buying the miniatures.

Hoffa
20-07-2015, 11:50
Games Workshop still needed to hold your hand to play with toy soldiers. There is no balance. Balance is what you make of it. Seemingly there aren't a great deal of adults in this hobby now a days. Do gw have to do everything for you, have gw fans not got any imagination. Is it so hard for two hobbyists now a days to come to a agreement on a game without being a total ***** to one another. Either I am lucky and my local area has sensible gamers or I seemingly live in another dimension which could be right based on the forums as of late

Come on. This trolling is so week before last week.

Ultraloth
20-07-2015, 11:59
I think you have gotten the mentality of these gamers wrong. These people are not collectors. They are wannabe gamers that just never manage to get around to it. If there is no game to dream about playing they will not be buying the miniatures.

Perhaps. I'm more inclined to think that the potential game functions as an excuse to justify spending the money on it. (There is a lot of convincing yourself that you need something in consumerism.)

HereComesTomorrow
20-07-2015, 12:58
I think you have gotten the mentality of these gamers wrong. These people are not collectors. They are wannabe gamers that just never manage to get around to it. If there is no game to dream about playing they will not be buying the miniatures.

Exactly this. I get one wargame in a week (maybe 2 if its one of the skirmish games) split between WHFB, WM/H, Infinity and possibly soon, Malifaux. I only get the option of a game of of Fantasy every other week.

I have loads of models I plan to use, but never have the time to.

Hoffa
20-07-2015, 13:20
Thing is the people buying models and never actually getting around to playing with them does not think of them selves as collectors. They think of them selves as gamers and would probably regard the term collector as an insult.

duffybear1988
20-07-2015, 13:23
Think interconnected realms/planes of existence like in the marvel universe, azyrheim is Asgard, realm of fire is Midgard etc.

So in conclusion there is still no reasonable way to play an even-handed game of AoS outside of the starter set scenarios without developing your own points system, you can't even take the scenarios from the hardback book and play through them because they don't have detailed force lists balanced around the objectives?

I think I just lost my last shred of interest in this game, there is a limit to what I will buy just because it has the GW logo on it. Even if Angry Angel is right and they are eventually going to introduce some kind of balancing mechanic what the hell are we supposed to do in the mean time? You don't expect to buy a new car and have to wait six months for the engine to be installed so you can actually use it properly.

Welcome back to reality. Please don't leave us again... :cries: :D

Holier Than Thou
20-07-2015, 13:24
That's assuming that all customers are attracted to the models exclusively (or even primarely) as game pieces. That's very much not the case. Apart from the painters, I know plenty of people who buy boatloads of GW minis without actually ever gaming with them. Many of them entertain the notion that they will game with them, but in pract. ice they rarely ever do. There is at least a portion of GW's customer base who are indeed collectors first and wargamers second. (Whether GW's policy of trying to expand that group while shifting away from the wargamers will be succesfull is another matter of course.)

While true, this is hardly relevant when discussing the issue of a game with no rules. People who want to paint the models will paint the models, people who have spent time and effort painting them will probably not want to use them in a massive scrum in the middle of a board where they are encouraged to chuck them on top of other people's models and vice versa

HelloKitty
20-07-2015, 14:01
Having played probably about 40 games now since release (yes that many - I've been playtesting our Azyr comp rules like mad), the only real issues I have with the game out of the box are the lack of points or balancing mechanism that is official (because I hate politics and hate having to help politic a comp system in a community as gamers want official not player comp and I gotta give credit to the guy who wrote the rules, he's buried in emails that are both positive and negative) and how summoning is basically wtf-busted (much like it is in 40k).

Everything else I think is pretty cool or tolerable. The big hardback is not a bad purchase if you are playing AoS games. We basically have the army rules for free. We now have an app for free, though our developers are creating one of our own that supports our campaigns as well, but hey GW is giving stuff away for free that we used to complain about having to buy.

DVeight
20-07-2015, 14:08
This book is *********** awesome. Haters gonna hate.

SanDiegoSurrealist
20-07-2015, 14:15
This book is *********** awesome. Haters gonna hate.

Can you please explain to those of us who have not seen it why you say it is "********* awesome!"
Please defend your claim of said "******** awesome-ness!"
Thank you

ihavetoomuchminis
20-07-2015, 14:27
It has the GW logo on it. What else do you need?

Holier Than Thou
20-07-2015, 14:36
It has the GW logo on it. What else do you need?

An infallible argument for so many, it would seem.

duffybear1988
20-07-2015, 17:47
It has the GW logo on it. What else do you need?

Along with them getting a hefty discount for working for GW ;)

AngryAngel
20-07-2015, 19:47
Games Workshop still needed to hold your hand to play with toy soldiers. There is no balance. Balance is what you make of it. Seemingly there aren't a great deal of adults in this hobby now a days. Do gw have to do everything for you, have gw fans not got any imagination. Is it so hard for two hobbyists now a days to come to a agreement on a game without being a total ***** to one another. Either I am lucky and my local area has sensible gamers or I seemingly live in another dimension which could be right based on the forums as of late

Sad as it is to say, we have so many laws in the world, because people can't be trusted to be good to one another on even a moral level, let alone just in a game. People want structure in what up then has been a competitive game, and if it isn't that does it really matter if someone abuses the easily busted rules of this game ? If they are making rules, for a game they produce, yes I want them to do everything for me, that is why I pay them money to buy their books. If they are not doing that, get none of my money, simple. A game, needs balance, even people I greatly disagree with, seemingly come into agreement on that factor, perhaps not perfect, but some balance. Though I appreciate the purity of your defense of AoS, it shows very staunch support and dedication to the cause.



Or maybe if we wanted to play a game of toy soldiers with no rules we would buy a pack of green army men for 1 instead of investing time and money on building and painting units of expensive models.

This could be true, and a good point.



Welcome back to reality. Please don't leave us again... :cries: :D

I felt, and thought the same thing, but didn't give it voice, I knew you would, Brother.


This book is *********** awesome. Haters gonna hate.

Very deep insight there, you've completely changed my entire view of it, thank you.


Can you please explain to those of us who have not seen it why you say it is "********* awesome!"
Please defend your claim of said "******** awesome-ness!"
Thank you

I don't think he will, just a hunch.

GrandmasterWang
21-07-2015, 03:18
Lol Angry and Duffy your comments made me smile.

While I could be argued to be 'Pro AOS' even though I didn't vote in the poll that comment from Spiney was much more like the Spiney I recognize from that epic Eldar thread hahaha.

Why was that closed anyway? .... and what ever happened to Fle? He seems to have vanished back into his webway portal.

Please pm me if asking this stuff is 'banned'

To the TC thanks for explaining the battalions a bit more. The benefits for the Sigmarine "Command Squad" seem cool.

Mr Hater gonna Hate... Please take an example from the TC who went out his way to answer questions and give an in depth overview of the book seeing as you found it so awesome. Can you at least mention a couple things which made it so awesome?

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk

AngryAngel
21-07-2015, 07:49
Well I'd hate to derail a quality talk of AoS hardcover books, but I have to say I'm pleased people seem to remember that rather heated and long winded eldar thread so well. I imagine it might have its own cult following at this point. I think it got shut down because someone said something outside acceptable and it just never got opened because, really it was just an open warzone, there was no peace to be found inside that thread, only war ( Just like all of warhammer ). What happened to Fle we may never know, you know those Eldar tend to appear and vanish at a whim. I have a feeling we'll see him again...

On topic, I do love the posts with blind support such as " This rocks ! " Or " Haters gonna hate lolz ! ". Something fitting about it being used to praise AoS, short, simple but could use some expanding upon a real microcosm for the game itself.

Losing Command
21-07-2015, 08:17
Reading these reports on what's in that AoS hardback book left me quite shocked. The Lotr warhammer was what got me into this hobby, and the campaing books for that game had very detailed scenarios, listing which models to use to re-enact battles the way they were in the books or the movie, discription of which batte was being fought, advice on terrain, unit entries for the units used within them, most also had some painting advice further on ... and the price wasn't even that rediculus (Though those were softback. We now know that wrapping cardboard around it doubles the cost :p)

With me assuming GW was the same company that made those, I was expecting the AoS book to be something similiar. But by the sounds of it they didn't even put in half the effort, and ask twice the cost. Are we certain that GW hasn't suffered a hostile takeover ? Or did they change something with the formula of plastic they use that releases fumes that lower everybody's IQ ?

Ayin
21-07-2015, 08:23
With me assuming GW was the same company that made those, I was expecting the AoS book to be something similiar. But by the sounds of it they didn't even put in half the effort, and ask twice the cost. Are we certain that GW hasn't suffered a hostile takeover ? Or did they change something with the formula of plastic they use that releases fumes that lower everybody's IQ ?

Without looking, I have a feeling that the group currently working inside of and in charge of GW is significantly different than the one that imagined and designed LoTR more than a decade ago.


Also, those LoTR scenarios and the books were absolutely amazing. That system really blew me away at the time with how well it was designed and the thought put into the scenarios was so far beyond what the company otherwise put out.

duffybear1988
21-07-2015, 08:25
I felt, and thought the same thing, but didn't give it voice, I knew you would, Brother.


Lol Angry and Duffy your comments made me smile.

While I could be argued to be 'Pro AOS' even though I didn't vote in the poll that comment from Spiney was much more like the Spiney I recognize from that epic Eldar thread hahaha.



For a second I thought Spiney's family had been kidnapped by GW and were being held at gun point until he praised AoS enough. Luckily it looks like the crack team of Tempestus Scions I sent in were able to get him and his family away to safety. :cool:


"Spiney Norman we won't leave you behind... Spiney Norman we won't leave you behind..." (watch Black Hawk Down)

AngryAngel
22-07-2015, 00:14
For a second I thought Spiney's family had been kidnapped by GW and were being held at gun point until he praised AoS enough. Luckily it looks like the crack team of Tempestus Scions I sent in were able to get him and his family away to safety. :cool:


"Spiney Norman we won't leave you behind... Spiney Norman we won't leave you behind..." (watch Black Hawk Down)

Wouldn't you know, I love that movie, and know the scene !!

Spiney Norman
22-07-2015, 00:37
Lol @ these comments. I actually do expect GW to come up with some type of balancing mechanism but certainly not before the game has even been out a month.

You clearly have a different understanding of games rules than I do, a balancing mechanism is central to the rules for any game, without them you cannot even set up a game in the first place. Releasing a wargame without any way to balance forces is just like releasing half the rules for a wargame without the most important half.

And the ironic thing is that despite everything, I do actually really like the half of the rules GW have actually given us, I like the way monsters get less powerful the more wounds they take, I like the way models I have not been able to use in games for years because they are so awful are suddenly viable again (Orion, Ushabti) and I love the quick and fluid gameplay. The one area in which AoS completely fails me is that I have no way of setting up the forces for a satisfactory game.

Who knows, by the time I've actually finished painting my goretide models GW might've come out with the other half of the rules to make AoS actually work.