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View Full Version : Trying to be sporting when you're having a bad day - and your opponent's list is a bi



StraightSilver
20-07-2015, 09:37
Hiya,

So I'm putting this into 40K discussion but guess it applies to all games but I feel in this instance it might be a 40K / GW related issue.

This post is related to two issues, primarily trying to have a good game (and your opponent having a good one too) when you're not really enjoying it and also to discuss what to do when faced with an army that just seems impossible to play against.

To put things into context I have a friend I don't see very often, we met through GW and 40K is one of the things that has kept us in contact, so we meet up occasionally for a game and a catch up.

However this friend is always late which can be frustrating and also is a bit of WAAC player which doesn't normally bother me as I like a challenge but recently games haven't been much fun.

The last time we gamed I took my Ultramarines which I like to think is a pretty balanced, fluffy, list at 1900pts (he had specifically asked to up to 1900pts and that was fine by me as I can field over 2000pts painted).

Because we hadn't seen each other for a while I thought it would be a friendly pick up game with a chance to chat and catch up but he brought 3 Imperial Knights and a Baneblade. The Knights were using the Tripartite Lance formation.

Game 1 I conceded on Turn 2 - we were playing Maelstrom of War and the cards I had were nigh on impossible to complete (kill his Warlord in close combat, capture all objectives when he had 3 Knights with Obj Sec on 3 objectives etc).

However we restarted the same mission from scratch and the second game I beat him 18pts to 9pts. The cards just went my way and I have a lot of objective grabbing units. Having said that it was not what I would call a fun game but we had a pretty good day.

A couple of weeks later he suggested another game because I think he knew I didn't really enjoy the last one and I really needed a bit of a cheering up (broke up with my GF and was generally not feeling great).

I was looking forward to it and we booked a table at a new game store but then he turned up 2 hours late.....

Not really his fault, traffic was bad and he did let me know he was running late, but it didn't leave us much time for gaming but also didn't want to upset the store who had set aside a table for us.

We got to the store and the table was still free and I have to say it looked great - first time gaming there and the table and scenery were awesome and the staff very friendly.

My opponent had told me he was bringing his Dark Angels to try out the new Codex so I was looking forward to a nice fairly even match.

However he then pulled out... 3 Knights and some Dark Angels... so essentially his list from last time but instead of a Baneblade he had brought some Marines.

This is where I feel bad, and where I probably wasn't very sporting. His list was perfectly legal and I beat it last time. I just wasn't in the mood to face it that day and didn't think I would have a very enjoyable day. However that's not fair on him as he also wanted to have an enjoyable day and his Knights and Dark Angels are beautifully painted and both armies looked great on the table.

I always strive to be a good opponent and be as sporting as possible but I am ashamed to say I bitched throughout the game and moaned about his list being no fun to play against. It is however a perfectly legal list and maybe I should just suck it up and paint some more stuff as i will no doubt have to face this sort of thing in the future?

Needless to say the game was a slaughter, he practically tabled me and we ran out of time so I lost quite badly. I really didn't enjoy the day and I doubt he did either as i was in a foul mood.

So my questions are:

How do you deal with being sporting when you just aren't in the mood? Should I have just rescheduled the game for a time when I was feeling a bit better?

How do you deal with opponents that are late all the time, meaning you rarely get to finish a game?

Was I just being a whinger because my list wasn't as good as his, or should your opponent also have some responsibility to ensure you have a good game too?

Is this a 40K problem? I love 7th edition and would say I have had some of my most fun games in over 20 years since it came out but are some formations just a bit broken? Should your opponent give you some idea of what they are bringing or should you just be prepared?

My issue is it takes me a long time to paint up new units. I know what would have helped me in the game but it will be months before I get those painted and and by then there will be some new fad that faster painters than me will have latched onto....

Poncho160
20-07-2015, 09:51
I am sure many other people will say this but 40k only really works on a friendly level if you discuss with your opponent before hand what types of armies you are both taking.

I suggest talking to your friend before your next game and discuss what models both of you will be taking and come to some sort of friendly agreement of the general type of game you both want to have :).

StraightSilver
20-07-2015, 10:05
Cheers poncho, that's the impression I'm getting these days with 40K. I think the days of casual pick up games or friendlies are over and discussing beforehand is the way to go, which is kind of what i thought we had done but reckon next time he will tone it down a bit.

I just feel bad as he's a great bloke and I think maybe we didn't have as much fun as we could we have - that may have just been me already being in a bad mood but I am normally still able to have a good game even if I lose badly.

Rabbitden
20-07-2015, 12:32
In my area we've recently been playing games where everyone agrees to use no flyers and 'nothing bigger than a landraider'. This has led to some great games that take us back to the times before the 'great arms race' that 40K has become. Don't get me wrong, we all love using our newest LOW in battle, but using the smaller models in our collections has really given us a renewed interest in list building and playing.

ehlijen
20-07-2015, 13:22
40k is not a game where you can make armies alone before the game anymore. You have to talk to the opponent openly about what kind of game you want. The risk of this kind of experience is simply too high otherwise, even though that necessity makes 40k a lot more awkward to arrange than most other wargames.

Snake Tortoise
20-07-2015, 13:30
The lateness would be too much for me, never mind the army lists. Even with bad traffic two hours is far too late and after one (if I'm being generous) I'd cancel and suggest doing it again another time

StraightSilver
20-07-2015, 14:02
Cheers everybody, I was feeling I was being a bit of a drama queen but good to hear that other players agree on the type of game beforehand.

Within my gaming group we've never had to do this as we don't play "tournament" style and generally have an idea of what we'll be facing beforehand because we know what each of has in out collections.

Because I hadn't played against this particular opponent for a while I had no idea what I'd be up against (It's usually Dark Angels or Eldar) but this hasn't really been an issue before because once you'd agreed a point limit it was pretty much balanced (just about...).

I realise now 40K has changed quite a bit and although I feel this is by far the best edition for having fun it also has the potential to be not fun at all.

I think from now on I will try to arrange the games with more of an idea of what my opponent is bringing.

I'm also gonna get painting my Storm Raven and some assault Centurions... ;)

And yes the lateness is a real issue - I wanted a nice relaxed game and so had set aside a few hours, so to have to rush through one game that didn't get finished was also not helping my mood.

SimaoSegunda
20-07-2015, 14:39
Just a quick rules point, the knights in a tripartite lance formation don't have objective secured.

Konovalev
20-07-2015, 14:54
Trip-Knights seems kind of beardy to spring on someone. I get that some people enjoy the model and want to field multiples of them, but in the interest of fairness they should let you know that's what they're fielding so that you can tweak your list in response.


I have FW Imperial Guard armored company I like to run, but I always let my opponents know in advance that's what I'm fielding so they can adjust their list accordingly to add more AT weapons.

StraightSilver
20-07-2015, 14:58
Just a quick rules point, the knights in a tripartite lance formation don't have objective secured.

Ah, that would have made a MASSIVE difference!! They were impossible to shift off the objectives, without objective secured it wouldn't have been so much of an issue.

SimaoSegunda
20-07-2015, 15:07
I don't want to drag the thread too much off topic, but was he definitely using a Tripartite Lance? And not just a household detachment?

StraightSilver
20-07-2015, 15:15
I don't want to drag the thread too much off topic, but was he definitely using a Tripartite Lance? And not just a household detachment?

Apologies, my bad, just checked as i remembered the abilities but got name wrong.

Was actually not Tripartite Lance, was in fact Baronial Court - essentially +1 shield save at front, counter attack etc.

Beppo1234
20-07-2015, 15:38
The lateness would be too much for me, never mind the army lists. Even with bad traffic two hours is far too late and after one (if I'm being generous) I'd cancel and suggest doing it again another time

seriously. I wouldn't even cancel, I'd just leave, and let them find me to figure out why I didn't wait for them

TheKillerCoyote
20-07-2015, 15:41
I tend to agree with what most other folks here have said.
If you want a fun and balanced game, you've got to communicate with your partner beforehand, and part of good sportsmanship is asking permission before bringing any 'insta-win' units.
These include impossible to break units like knights, titans, or anything that could be described as gargantuan or super-heavy, as well as formations that may be a bit OP.
Springing things like that on an opponent without mentioning them is a dick move that smacks of someone who's more interested in winning at any cost than they are at having a fun game.
Also, I think you're a ******** saint for waiting 2 hours. I'd have gone 45 minutes at most before telling him not to bother stopping by.

Grand Master Raziel
20-07-2015, 16:11
Well, I can understand your pal wanting to use his Knights, seeing as he's gone to the time and expense of assembling and painting 3 of them. If you've got a deep enough collection to field a list that can give 3 Knights a go, I'd suggest just asking if he can give you a heads-up when he's going to bring that as his army. Alternately, (again, if you've got the collection depth), bring an anti-Knights list and models in addition to your normal list and models, and if he pulls out the 3 Knights, pull out the anti-Knight list. Another possibility is to ask him to restrict himself to 1 super-heavy of any sort, and possibly ask if you can borrow one of his Knights or his Baneblade. If all else fails, ask him to swap lists to see if your usual list really has a chance against the Knight list.

You know, the issue with the Knights reminds me of the controversy around the IG Armored Company list back in 3rd ed. Essentially, it was all-Leman Russes, all-the-time, which in 3rd edition was game-breaking if you sprang it on an unprepared opponent.

SimaoSegunda
20-07-2015, 16:11
Apologies, my bad, just checked as i remembered the abilities but got name wrong.

Was actually not Tripartite Lance, was in fact Baronial Court - essentially +1 shield save at front, counter attack etc.

Fair enough. :-) but still doesn't have ObSec either. Just worth knowing for future reference, it's only the household detachment that gets that.

Beppo1234
20-07-2015, 16:16
my caveat for facing Knights is that only one may be the base kit build. More than one? Those legs better be reposed!

TremendousZ
21-07-2015, 02:14
I had this problem recently with a long time opponent. I beat him too many time with 2 AoBR boxs of Orks and a pain boy. So he got fed up and stretched me to 1500 pts then proceeded to bring all mech with ap4 templates and sat behind an aegis to move a total of 6 in with all models over 3 turns.

I freaked too and explained that it was a total waste of time. I was too bent out of shape to think straight but I found a solution.

Ask for a rematch, but switch armies exact same lists! That way he can experience first hand the level of fun he is bringing.

GrandmasterWang
21-07-2015, 05:37
I like to play with a chilled group.

You waiting for 2 hours set the tone for the match!!

Honestly with you bringing your ultras and as he's a mate... I'd have actually asked him about how he felt giving ME one of his knights (2 knights vs 1) in return for some ultra allies or something I'd brought worth the same points. Often a little switch like this can make a huge difference. Vs mates this is doable... not so much in a pickup game ho ho.

Regarding you being whiny etc etc... if he's a mate he'll gice you a pass based on him being so late and your gf issues.

Next game id talk to him before meeting about what the forces that would be facing each other would be

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Khastarax
21-07-2015, 10:30
How about you talk to your opponent before meeting? Use whatzapp or email if you dont call each other. This is so simpel to avoid if people would just communicate.

Abaraxas
21-07-2015, 11:42
My group plays 2nd edition and we let each other know what we are bringing/tailor our lists for a good game because we only get to play once a month at best and like to make the most of it.

A while ago I had a game where me (1000pts of Orks) allied with a friend (1000pts of Chaos) "tabled" our opponent (two, 1000pt Squat armies)...he took it like an absolute champion, to his credit.
Going into the game, my Chaos ally and I were sure he was going to destroy us with ease but everything that could go wrong for the Squats went wrong and it was nasty.

We don't really focus on winning though, I mean nobody sets out to lose (and nobody throws a game) but everybody tries to "make a game out of it" at the very least.

At the end of the day, I'm just happy to get my painted minis on a decked out table and roll some dice.

aprilmanha
21-07-2015, 11:43
Personally if I was in a similar situation I would probably just called the game off, and invited them over to my place for a drink and a movie/video game.
I've never had a wargame put me in a better mood then I started in, unless I was already in a good mood and both me and my opponent are on the same wavelength joke wise (and then we spend more time laughing at our models then actually playing anyway).
Serious Face games tend to be a no win situation if I am in a bad mood already.

Fithos
21-07-2015, 16:13
I had a game like the op's not too long ago. My opponent brought all sorts of eldar d weapons and the put in a bunch of seers to get invisibility for them. I played my best but everything was going wrong for me (had initiative siezed, failed a bunch of charges, only killed 1 wraithguard with 6 Melta Gun hits) it was nothing my opponent was doing but after the game I pointed out how one sided it had been and told my opponent that my real problem was the combination of d weapons and invisibility. So my opponent agreed to not use that combination in games less than 2000 points anymore (if she brings d weapons she will not roll on telepathy or at least re roll invisibility. )

My advice is be willing to try playing against something but if it's obviously no fun after one game let your opponent know that you will probably decline games against that sort of list in the future.

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jeffersonian000
21-07-2015, 18:50
Personally, I set myself objectives in each game to plays to my own meta. Specifically, I play Grey Knights, so my meta objective is to kill the first unit I attack, then to declare openly that "the daemon has now been purged, being cleansing the tainted." At that point, I've already won the meta game, so everything else is cake. Win, lose, doesn't matter, as I have just rid the universe of another neverborn.

I.e., I forged the narrative (and probably robbed my opponent of victory even if they table me).

Of course, my goal in a pick up game is to challenge my skills and have a great time talking smack. If I want to win hard match ups, I better be willing to play hard match ups.

SJ


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Weavetoucher
22-07-2015, 12:38
Ever since herohammer and 2nd edition right up to todays games my group has one person build both lists without knowing which army they will end up playing as opponent chooses which army they wish to play. (yes it involves trust and using each others models but we are all adults.) This means you automatically try to be bring fun balanced lists because if you OP one then you won't end up playing it!

AngryAngel
22-07-2015, 19:34
I am sure many other people will say this but 40k only really works on a friendly level if you discuss with your opponent before hand what types of armies you are both taking.

I suggest talking to your friend before your next game and discuss what models both of you will be taking and come to some sort of friendly agreement of the general type of game you both want to have :).

Unfortunately this, the game is over the top when both players don't go into it thinking the same thing.

If you don't want to tell your opponent what they can and can't take all you can do is get into the proper mindset of, this is going to be awful. Then try and laugh about it, set simple goals and try and enjoy the experience, even the stomping. Sometimes keeping from being tabled is all you can do, and its what I aim for, like a mini game. 40k ends up poor if you don't value the experience over the out come I've found. ( Though like anyone, I do love to win ) Hope the next game goes better.


Cheers poncho, that's the impression I'm getting these days with 40K. I think the days of casual pick up games or friendlies are over and discussing beforehand is the way to go, which is kind of what i thought we had done but reckon next time he will tone it down a bit.

I just feel bad as he's a great bloke and I think maybe we didn't have as much fun as we could we have - that may have just been me already being in a bad mood but I am normally still able to have a good game even if I lose badly.

I think everyone gets a bit annoyed with a one sided beat down, I'm sure he had to understand that. Just you know, be big enough to explain next time you two play what was up, and as long as he's a good guy ( which you said ) he'll understand, we are afterall, only human.

Fingers
22-07-2015, 19:44
We have a pretty friendly gaming crew though sometimes a beardy list creeps in. Our policy is IF you plan to bring more than 1 SH we ask you tell your opponent cause if not its a dick move. Also some people request "no death stars" or "can you please not bring 2 flyrants for the 15th time" :)

Of course we have a Tau guy too so whenever he plays all gloves are off.

Greavous
23-07-2015, 08:50
if you dont enjoy the game then it isnt worth playing, if his army is legal then really theres nothing more to say. at my local club every knight army gets smashed, people dont build lists to beat them either they are just pretty weak, unless you have zero anti tank or get bad rolls they topple hard even to just troops with grenades.

but i suppose if you dont get to play alot you wont get to know to build this into a list, my club just agrees on a point cost and what army e.g. 2k SM or 1.5k necrons. nothing more than that and you dont even have to say about allies but pretty much all our games turn out fun and alst the full 3 hours (usually over) the club is open for.

and personally to be told or have to tell my opponent exactly what i will be bringing just seems pointless, it just ends up you both build counter armies making a list simply to beat that 1 opponent.