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Kotrag
20-07-2015, 10:06
And Total War: Warhammer is enough of a terrifyingly massive, fire-breathing, city-destroying Godzilla monster of a success, would it be possible for Kevin Rountree (GeeDub's current CEO) to bury his head in his hands and basically go - "OK, you guys know what? We're doing what Wizards of the Coast did with Dungeons and Dragons 5th!" and largely resurrect the Old World?

I mean, they could still keep the trademarkable names, maybe keep the concept of Stormcast Eternals though less as Sigmarines and more like... Chaos champions of the Empire or something, keep the Horned Rat as an ascended Chaos God and whatever else they feel they need to do in order to feel as if they haven't wasted the effort they've obviously put into AoS, but still largely reviving the original setting we've loved for 30 years.

I dunno, let's just pray... Pray to... well, Sigmar's obviously out, Ulric's dead and Khorne seems to be having too much fun curbstomping everything... You know what, let's pray to the God-Emperor. Pray that he comes to Sigmar's throneroom in Sigmaron, slaps him silly and screams, "YOU BLOODY IDIOT, YOU GET YOUR *********** **** BACK TOGETHER THIS *********** INSTANT!".

A man can hope, right?

Urgat
20-07-2015, 17:04
No. Imho, they'll just pull the plug if AoS fails.

Theocracity
20-07-2015, 17:45
I feel like the only lesson they would learn if Total War is a success is "video games sell better than plastic models."

And like Urgat said, if it becomes too much of a loss they'll likely just stop it entirely rather than do another expensive retool back to a system that was dying beforehand (and would likely not be ready before all the people who played Total War have already moved on to other interests).

Philhelm
20-07-2015, 19:07
Pray to Solkan.

Kotrag
20-07-2015, 19:09
Pray to Solkan.

No, Solkan is a lie. Be'Lakor confirmed it in Archaon: Everchosen.

Kegslayer
21-07-2015, 00:02
Total warhammer will succeed somewhat but I doubt itll be hugely popular certainly not for workshop to bring old fantasy back. If AoS fails GW will can fantasy completely. GW though believe in AoS thus they made it and are going ahead whether the vets like it or not. GW wont change their mind any time soon

Smooth Boy
21-07-2015, 06:21
I think GW would refuse to bring it back out of sheer arrogance even if it did do well. They'd feel too humiliated. But as everyone else says this isn't likely to be a concern since I can't see TW:W selling enough copies given the medium it's being published on.

Ayin
21-07-2015, 07:26
Regardless of how any Fantasy IP products do, GW is going with AoS. They likely have at least a years worth of releases already built up and will put those into the market regardless of other factors.

Fantasy is not coming back.

Griefbringer
21-07-2015, 09:04
Is this really a background topic?

Ayin
21-07-2015, 09:50
No, not at all. It's the dream of someone who hopes that the success of media based on the previous games background will cause a time-distortion effect that will make everything right.

plantagenet
21-07-2015, 13:03
If AOS tanks then they will need to do something.

If they lose the fantasy players all together it would represent a significant loss of business beteween 15 to 25%. I realize fantasy isn't that big but you will also loose WD sales, paints and other hobby supply sales. Fantasy players are more than just fantasy customers they are hobby customers and as such make up a bigger amount of income than just the game sales alone would indicate.

RunepriestRidcully
21-07-2015, 16:50
Plus, ceding the Fantasy market just at the time their LOTR license would be ending would leave a huge market for rivals to grow into where they once dominated utterly, plus overspecialising into 40k puts all their eggs in one Skull lined basket.

Lester
21-07-2015, 18:11
First, I don't think AoS will tank and I don't think Total War will be ground breaking either (AoS has set it up to fail basically). And I hope WHF stays dead. Unlike the vocal minority (yes, those against AoS are the minority), I like the new direction. I don't have the decades of background to catch up with. I wanted a simpler game with narrative gameplay and great plastic miniatures set in high fantasy. I'm happy with this.

lbecks
21-07-2015, 20:31
They can just resurrect the old world in one of the realms. And have an event where Sigmar goes away and Karl Franz is reborn in the old world realm area. The Sigmarines stay and they're like Space Marine Chapters (Bring us the Wulfricarines!). The empire is like the IG. They can then make the game more complex as it's pretty simple as is. And then sell you plastic moving trays for your new round-based miniatures. Ta-da! "old" Warhammer is back. This happens with comic companies. Marvel is streamlining their titles right now, but they'll be built back up in complexity just to be streamlined once more.

BirchbarktheAncient
22-07-2015, 02:14
The bottom line is that without some of the unofficial comp rules, AoS is beyond God-awful. It is virtually unplayable as it stands and I think GW already knows that their vain attempt to "redesign" a world we loved for 30 years has epically failed. The 40k guys are just outright laughing at the jumbled mess this thing is. The smart ones are scared to death that their game is next. GW will hang onto this garbage for 2-3 years and then let it dwindle and die on the vine. I've heard of so many groups in my area that have already dumped their armies on eBay and have moved to War Machine. How GW could ever call this trash a success is beyond me. Not even the hardcore fanboys I know are interested in the fluff anymore which used to be the great appeal of the game. Too bad, a great world was destroyed because the company refused to promote or support it.

AkatsukiLeader13
22-07-2015, 04:20
Honestly having played several AoS games, mostly with my old Tomb King army, the game pretty balanced as long as you're not trying to be That Guy and you and the people you're playing with act like reasonable people when deciding army sizes.

The most common army rules I've seen is agreeing to X number of Wounds, X number of units with the Hero and/or Monster keyword.

In my limited experience of AoS so far it works. I've had my Tomb Kings go up against Skaven, Chaos Warriors and Dark Elves with those rules. Played four games, two against the Skaven, once against the DE and WoC. Beat the DE and the Skaven once while lost the other two. But all of them were close and there was no real sense that one army was OPing the other.

Senbei
22-07-2015, 05:29
(yes, those against AoS are the minority)

Current straw-polls put that minority at, roughly, 70%. I doubt it's quite that bad in reality but people don't like pointless change. WFB's biggest problems were all the giant plastic kits, OP units and 'random' rules. People quite liked (in my experience) the jostling for flank charges and tactical manuvering.

Ayin
22-07-2015, 06:27
WFB's biggest problems were all the giant plastic kits, OP units and 'random' rules. People quite liked (in my experience) the jostling for flank charges and tactical manuvering.

From GW's perspective those were in no way the problems they had with their secondary game line, unfortunately.

Lester
22-07-2015, 12:18
Current straw-polls put that minority at, roughly, 70%. I doubt it's quite that bad in reality but people don't like pointless change. WFB's biggest problems were all the giant plastic kits, OP units and 'random' rules. People quite liked (in my experience) the jostling for flank charges and tactical manuvering.

Polls done on forums where said minority are vocal and in effect the majority (like Warseer). Doing polls on Internet forums aren't representative of the gaming community at large.

AkatsukiLeader13
22-07-2015, 14:32
Yeah I've talked to people around my GW store and while there are some that aren't happy, most seem to be either interested or in favor of it.

tmod
22-07-2015, 14:43
Polls done on forums where said minority are vocal and in effect the majority (like Warseer). Doing polls on Internet forums aren't representative of the gaming community at large.

You're certainly right, polls on here are probably not representative enough to give a fair account of the numbers. But what is? Please don't say something stupid like what you've experienced/witnessed in real life! What anecdotes we have mostly points in the same direction. What we do know from online polls point in the same direction. What market segment analysis have been done point in the same direction (hardly certaim proof, but still). Comparisons to other games point in the same direction.

We don't know that AoS will fail, certainly not how badly. We do know quite well that the expectations GW seem to have for it probably are unrealistic (replacing the Space Marine statue indicate they want this to be as big or bigger than 40k).

So far you've made a claim that goes against what little fact we have, and with nothing to back it up. All evidence, however weak it is at the moment, points to a vast majority of GW customets being largely negative to AoS. This might change, but until it does, or someone (you?) presents evidence this is wrong, claims that the posters negative to AoS is a minority will be completely baseless and they come across as not being in touch with reality at all.

If you know something the rest of us don't, please bring us all up to speed! In the meantime, everything points to AoS being less than successful...

Caveat: I'm not really affected either way. Loved WHFB back in 6th, took a break, tried to get back along with my wife a few years back. But the massiveness of it all as well as the relatively poor miniature quality compared to the competition caused her to go with Freebooter's Fate instead. I play FF, Malifaux and Mordheim, buy some Fantasy models for possible future use (Oldhammer or AoS, depending) collect some 40k models with a plan to play GorkaMorka at some point in the future. I hope GW is doing smart decisions, survive and thrive, but all available info point at AoS being closer to a catastrophe than a success...

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Lester
22-07-2015, 15:02
You're certainly right, polls on here are probably not representative enough to give a fair account of the numbers. But what is? Please don't say something stupid like what you've experienced/witnessed in real life! What anecdotes we have mostly points in the same direction. What we do know from online polls point in the same direction. What market segment analysis have been done point in the same direction (hardly certaim proof, but still). Comparisons to other games point in the same direction.

We don't know that AoS will fail, certainly not how badly. We do know quite well that the expectations GW seem to have for it probably are unrealistic (replacing the Space Marine statue indicate they want this to be as big or bigger than 40k).

So far you've made a claim that goes against what little fact we have, and with nothing to back it up. All evidence, however weak it is at the moment, points to a vast majority of GW customets being largely negative to AoS. This might change, but until it does, or someone (you?) presents evidence this is wrong, claims that the posters negative to AoS is a minority will be completely baseless and they come across as not being in touch with reality at all.

If you know something the rest of us don't, please bring us all up to speed! In the meantime, everything points to AoS being less than successful...

Caveat: I'm not really affected either way. Loved WHFB back in 6th, took a break, tried to get back along with my wife a few years back. But the massiveness of it all as well as the relatively poor miniature quality compared to the competition caused her to go with Freebooter's Fate instead. I play FF, Malifaux and Mordheim, buy some Fantasy models for possible future use (Oldhammer or AoS, depending) collect some 40k models with a plan to play GorkaMorka at some point in the future. I hope GW is doing smart decisions, survive and thrive, but all available info point at AoS being closer to a catastrophe than a success...

Sent fra min GT-I9506 via Tapatalk

Lots of words that don't say much (no disrespect meant lad, you're just going on about the same point). You claim that there's proof (even if a little) that AoS is a failure yet I see no proof. All I see is a group of disgruntled people using the Internet as a megaphone (sad thing that this happens all the time). It is a known fact that those unhappy with something tend to be vocal about it while those who are content don't see the need to be vocal. I have no proof that AoS is a successful product, I'm just going with my gut.

draccan
22-07-2015, 15:04
Hahahahahahaha
Age of Sigmar "a succesful product" :p

Lester
22-07-2015, 15:11
Hahahahahahaha
Age of Sigmar "a succesful product" :p

Very insightful and thoughtful post you got there.

Senbei
22-07-2015, 16:23
Polls done on forums where said minority are vocal and in effect the majority (like Warseer). Doing polls on Internet forums aren't representative of the gaming community at large.

On some forums Warseer is considered a hub of GW fanboys. Just saying...


Yeah I've talked to people around my GW store and while there are some that aren't happy, most seem to be either interested or in favor of it.

Surely the 'slice' of playerbase found in a GW store is going to have a fair deal of GW Bias though? Aided by the fact that some managers would throw you out if you were rude about their product (also, it would be a jerk thing to whinge about in their store, y'know?).

I'm not sure that ANY single group could be considered completely unbiased, unless you could poll EVERY player.

Theocracity
22-07-2015, 16:31
I don't need polling data, personal anecdotes or sales trends to know that this discussion has nothing to do with Background. :p

tmod
22-07-2015, 16:57
Lots of words that don't say much (no disrespect meant lad, you're just going on about the same point). You claim that there's proof (even if a little) that AoS is a failure yet I see no proof. All I see is a group of disgruntled people using the Internet as a megaphone (sad thing that this happens all the time). It is a known fact that those unhappy with something tend to be vocal about it while those who are content don't see the need to be vocal. I have no proof that AoS is a successful product, I'm just going with my gut.

But that's my point. You say you go by your gut, and that's fine. You know say you're guessing AoS is mostly liked. That's NOT what you claimed in the post I quoted, you claimed AoS IS IN FACT liked by the majority, ie more than half of all the people.

I don't have any proof that you're wrong, but we have many indications that you might be (online polls, preliminary sales reports, etc.). This is not evidence of anything, I grant you that, but togethee they are indicative of a negative response to AoS.

You claimed to the contrary that a majority gas a positive reaction to the new game. Unless you can back it up with anything more substantial than what your gut tells you, you vome across as a fanboi in denial with index fingers stuffed in your ears repeating "everything is awesooome!" to yourself.

Now, your gut might very well be right, we have no solid proof either way. But what soft indications we have indicate the opposite of what your gut tells you. In this light your overconfident claim comes across as ridiculous.

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woodster17
22-07-2015, 17:06
Worst background thread ever....

Also, I'm not sure how multiplying the number of worlds or 'realms' by nine is simplifying the fluff. Particularly given that it seems the writers have free rein to pen whatever they want as they develop the fluff. They're going to end up with more characters than Game of Thrones... not exactly going to be easy to follow.

Ayin
22-07-2015, 17:46
Multiple but themed areas with populations who are defined by those traits goes a good way to "simplifying" the storytelling.

Who are those 'slayer'-y dwarfs with the red hair? Oh, they're the fire world dwarves, so they're mad and unpredictable and their hair is red. How do they function in greater dwarf society? Doesn't matter, they live in fire world doing fire things. Alright, so do they have a shared culture? Maybe, but mostly fire. How do other dwarf groups, like runesmiths, interact with them? Don't need other groups to be fully functional, fire and fire magic.

Bede19025
22-07-2015, 18:16
Current straw-polls put that minority at, roughly, 70%.

If your straw poll was of posts on Warseer, you're undoubtedly right. But how representative is Warseer of the entire population of GW customers?

Also, people who are angry about something are more likely to speak out than people who are satisfied. It's just human nature (the same reason the t.v. news reports on murders, fires, and other bad stuff more than the guy who helped the little old lady across the street).

Senbei
22-07-2015, 19:31
If your straw poll was of posts on Warseer, you're undoubtedly right. But how representative is Warseer of the entire population of GW customers?

Also, people who are angry about something are more likely to speak out than people who are satisfied. It's just human nature (the same reason the t.v. news reports on murders, fires, and other bad stuff more than the guy who helped the little old lady across the street).

No, it was simply of Avians poll on the 'Warhammer General' subforum. That said, can't say that I've seen much support for AOS on -any- of the forums of bbs I frequent.... but then, anyone frequenting a wargames forum probably already has a fantasy force or two and is going to be less happy about having to change how they've played. AOS is probably more attractive to new players though... well, except for the new prices (but theres a thread for that).

InstantKarma
22-07-2015, 19:36
I got a better idea; play a different game.

In all seriousness, the cost of GW games is getting to be too much. Between Formations in 40k, to $60 for 5 Sigmarines, I'm loosing interest by the sheer financial cost of actually trying to play. 8th was hard to jump into because the numbers of models needed meant $60-$70 to buy 1-3 boxes of dudes to get a mediumish sized unit, in a game that gave the impression you needed to be running large blocks of 40 or 50 (in some cases more!). Obviously this depended on your army, but less models seemed to always be compensated for by higher $$ per model anyways (Witch Elves anyone?).

Now being fair, GW's newer kits are of a seemingly high quailty, possibly the highest, and can sometimee be used for mulitiple units, so you also get lots of bitz for conversions etc. But there is a threshold where even that can't compensate with cost.

When very good alternatives (and I'm not sure they should be treated as mere alternatives to GW) exist where you spend 2-3 times less to be able to field a full force on a table top AND have better rules, why feed the troll anymore?

Edit: I think while costs does have it's own thread, it is relevant to the supposed 'ease' of picking up and playing a GW product and whether or not AoS tanks.

Tzar Boris
22-07-2015, 23:01
They could resurrect the Warhammer World - they probably should resurrect the Warhammer World. They won't though.

S'funny, I just changed my sig to the Moorcock quote - and it's quite pertinent. The AOS world is very "Eternal Champion" - which GW lost the license for, and famously half inched the chaos symbol from and half the models made it into the fantasy elf ranges. If they're going "full Moorcock" on Warhammer lore - then Sigmar is the Emperor is Karl Franz is Marneus Calgar etc. The Warhammer World is a plane of existence for the Eternal Champion of Karl Franz, from which Sigmar ascended to the "Mortal Realms" plane as Eternal Champion, the Emperor is the eternal champion of the Warp plane, Marneus of the Galactic plane etc. All just planes of possibility ready to visit - easy enough to "find" a parallel Warhammer World and reinhabit down the line.

It'd be easy to retconn AOS as a "Who shot JR Ewing?" thing - like they did with Storm of Chaos. There is form on that at least.

But by the time AOS tanks "enough" the ball will be rolling for doing something similarly destructive to 40k, and then the party's over. I honestly believe GW have gotten to the stage of eating its own BS, and loving it. It can't tell the spin from the truth - and that's the "culture" it ensures all it's staff have. Read the statements - it's all about this "GW culture" - if you ain't saying "That looks awesome" at everything coming out of the studio, you're not going far - their "culture" does not provide for naysayers.

Same reason I'm not holding my breath for the remake of FFVII - Square Enix ain't exactly produced many great games recently - so not holding my breath based on "current trend". Would love golden awesomes coming every which way, but we should all know by now about building ourselves up for disappointment.

That's my 2 Pfennigs.

Unwise
22-07-2015, 23:49
GW has never let us use the actual ruleset from WHFB in a computer game before. As they have murdered the game now, there is a possibility that in a few years time we will see a full and playable WHFB 8th computer game, something that was inconceivable before this debacle.

Niall78
22-07-2015, 23:53
The only hope is some other company buys or rents the very valuable IP and runs with it. Frankly I now find that a better option than GW reviving the IP again. They'd only write very sub-par rules anyway.

Shifte
23-07-2015, 00:03
Well, AoS isn't successful going by my own perspective. The rules and lack of points lost at least five customers. It's only an anecdote and entirely personal, but I can imagine I'm not the only one in such a position.

Buddy Bear
23-07-2015, 00:10
Polls done on forums where said minority are vocal and in effect the majority (like Warseer). Doing polls on Internet forums aren't representative of the gaming community at large.

If they're a minority, then how is it a 2,000 copy limited edition has yet to sell out? As for those polls, they provide more hard data than you do, which is nothing at all except your own opinion.

splash
23-07-2015, 00:11
Hahahahahahaha
Age of Sigmar "a succesful product" :p

At this point in time, can you prove otherwise? I'd like to see your data to support your outburst.

Gork or Possibly Mork
23-07-2015, 00:30
First, I don't think AoS will tank and I don't think Total War will be ground breaking either (AoS has set it up to fail basically).

I'm not sure how AOS has any bearing on if a Total War game based on the Old World WHFB has great success or not. Tons of people have wished for a TW game based on Warhammer for years and whether the setting exist or not according to the current fluff matters not.

The games success will be gauged on how good it is or isn't and perhaps how many hardcore historical fans of the series they can get interested.

I would think the type of person that decides not to get Warhammer Total War purely based on AOS is extremely rare.

Niall78
23-07-2015, 00:36
Well, AoS isn't successful going by my own perspective. The rules and lack of points lost at least five customers. It's only an anecdote and entirely personal, but I can imagine I'm not the only one in such a position.

I'm in the same boat. My whole group has abandoned this new setting and - as seasoned war-gamers - think the rules are a joke. Between the eight of us that represents a loss of at least €8000 a year to GW. You're going to need a lot of rich 13-14 year old kids to make up that loss of revenue. If this is what is happening on a large scale it's a disaster of epic proportions for GW.

Niall78
23-07-2015, 00:41
I'm not sure how AOS has any bearing on if a Total War game based on the Old World WHFB has great success or not. Tons of people have wished for a TW game based on Warhammer for years and whether the setting exist or not according to the current fluff matters not.

The games success will be gauged on how good it is or isn't and perhaps how many hardcore historical fans of the series they can get interested.

I would think the type of person that decides not to get Warhammer Total War purely based on AOS is extremely rare.

It's the other way round - a big success for TW:Warhammer would have brought many new players into the hobby. A TW game will typically sell 1.3 to 1.5 million copies. To not have a product to tie into that success to is a big failure.

Sparowl
23-07-2015, 00:52
Polls done on forums where said minority are vocal and in effect the majority (like Warseer). Doing polls on Internet forums aren't representative of the gaming community at large.

Ah, so you have non-forum based studies to show us that the dislike is the clear minority. Would you mind sharing? We'd all love to see it. Please include your methodology, so we can make sure it is accurate.

-------------

On topic - GW will kill it before accepting they've made mistakes.

draccan
23-07-2015, 00:59
At this point in time, can you prove otherwise? I'd like to see your data to support your outburst.

You don't need hard data to apply logic. The age old "if the glove fits" may work in court, but in real life most of us are able to discern between what is imagined and what is real.

Kahadras
23-07-2015, 01:04
On topic - GW will kill it before accepting they've made mistakes.

This.

IF AoS does badly then GW will shove out the rest of the stuff they've already made for it. Declare that they are going to concentrate on their core product (40K). Then drop it like a hot potato.

Gork or Possibly Mork
23-07-2015, 01:11
It's the other way round - a big success for TW:Warhammer would have brought many new players into the hobby. A TW game will typically sell 1.3 to 1.5 million copies. To not have a product to tie into that success to is a big failure.

Of course but he/she said specifically that "I don't think Total War will be ground breaking either (AoS has set it up to fail basically)."

I don't see how AoS or WHFB being effectively dead as we knew it has any relevance at all to how successful/unsuccessful a "Total War" game based on the WHFB setting would be.

Niall78
23-07-2015, 01:13
Of course but he/she said specifically that "I don't think Total War will be ground breaking either (AoS has set it up to fail basically)."

I don't see how AoS or WHFB being effectively dead as we knew it has any relevance at all to how successful/unsuccessful a "Total War" game based on the WHFB setting.

The TW game will succeed based on peoples love of TW games and/or their love of the WFB IP. AoS wont enter that equation at all. Where it is a total fail for GW is that they have no product to tie into any success TW does achieve.

Gork or Possibly Mork
23-07-2015, 01:19
The TW game will succeed based on peoples love of TW games and/or their love of the WFB IP. AoS wont enter that equation at all. Where it is a total fail for GW is that they have no product to tie into any success TW does achieve.

Totally agree but i have to say i'm not that confident a ton of TW fans would suddenly convert over or dabble into playing the TT game even if interested the investment in time/money is quite substantial and TT gaming really is a niche market where as computer gaming isn't.

Shandor
23-07-2015, 02:33
If they're a minority, then how is it a 2,000 copy limited edition has yet to sell out? As for those polls, they provide more hard data than you do, which is nothing at all except your own opinion.

Wow the End Times book where sold out in 20 minutes? What was the number of the End times books sold? Alot more then 2000 i guess. We hat 12 Preorders of the Khaine book in our GW Store alone.

@ The Vocal minority.. Yeah every Warhammer forum in the world has almost the same results but they are all wrong.. sure.. :)

Dosiere
23-07-2015, 03:01
All I can add is that AoS has killed fantasy in my area. We had a large and active fantasy group that even played through the crazy end times books and now it's a fantasy ghost town except for a minority still playing 8th edition. There are more people playing Mordheim than AoS. I am very interested in making AoS work since I love my fantasy games, but unfortunately AoS doesn't appear to be a big hit. A lot of people bought the models though, mostly to split them with a friend, but very very few are actually playing it. I'm about to give up on it since it is impossible to get a pick up game and just keep playing 8th as long as there is still a group at my store. I haven't been to the nearest GW store to gauge interest but why would I? They have exactly one table to play games on, they have nothing to eat or drink, it's further away, and they offer no customer or club program for discounts.

Time will tell if AoS is able to bring enough new players into its system to be truly successful.

Shandor
23-07-2015, 03:18
All I can add is that AoS has killed fantasy in my area. We had a large and active fantasy group that even played through the crazy end times books and now it's a fantasy ghost town except for a minority still playing 8th edition. There are more people playing Mordheim than AoS. I am very interested in making AoS work since I love my fantasy games, but unfortunately AoS doesn't appear to be a big hit. A lot of people bought the models though, mostly to split them with a friend, but very very few are actually playing it. I'm about to give up on it since it is impossible to get a pick up game and just keep playing 8th as long as there is still a group at my store. I haven't been to the nearest GW store to gauge interest but why would I? They have exactly one table to play games on, they have nothing to eat or drink, it's further away, and they offer no customer or club program for discounts.

Time will tell if AoS is able to bring enough new players into its system to be truly successful.

We have 2 out of 12 Active Warhammer players playing AoS and 2 40k players. The rest of is still playing 8th edition or stoped playing at all.

splash
23-07-2015, 03:53
You don't need hard data to apply logic. The age old "if the glove fits" may work in court, but in real life most of us are able to discern between what is imagined and what is real.

Ah, okay then. Translation: "I don't need to prove my outburst, I'll just rage-hate and let my noisy opinion stand on it's own." Good thing your own contradiction about logic is your only argument, congrats on that.

GrandmasterWang
23-07-2015, 04:14
There is absolutely no reason why GW can't do a stand alone box set set in the "Warhammer Fantasy World"

I personally think that over the next 10 years we will see multiple products set in the Old World... especially if Total Warhammer does really well.



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Sothron
23-07-2015, 05:10
AoS has already failed. I have been a fan of WHFB since the mid to late 80's. No edition change was ever this toxic before AoS. This literally killed the WHFB setting and split the community into a vastly angry and bitter majority to the few that for reasons I fail to understand actually like AoS. TW:W being a huge hit could force GW to bring back WHFB and make AoS a specialty game or kill it completely.

Niall78
23-07-2015, 05:23
AoS has already failed. I have been a fan of WHFB since the mid to late 80's. No edition change was ever this toxic before AoS. This literally killed the WHFB setting and split the community into a vastly angry and bitter majority to the few that for reasons I fail to understand actually like AoS. TW:W being a huge hit could force GW to bring back WHFB and make AoS a specialty game or kill it completely.

I'd have to agree. Any product that explodes a companies player base like AoS has is a failure. If GW had actively advertised for games like KoW it couldn't have damaged their fantasy player base more than the release of AoS has managed.

On the other hand if the intention of AoS was to fracture, pee-off and anger the player base while promoting other systems it couldn't have worked better.

Mawduce
23-07-2015, 06:45
Lets forget the fact there are 8th edition camps and AoS camps. Lets focus on the AoS community itself as a whole for a moment. How many play RAW, and how many different house rules are there? My guess is there are tons of different house rules and even some different ideas of what RAW means. Look at the different camps of summoning, the bell/fateweaver, silly dance rules, and what part of the model should be measured from arguments there are. Can you imagine two players that haven't talked about a rule before hand because they didn't conceive the other player had a difference of opinion on that rule?

Well Mawduce the players just can't be dicks and it'll be ok. Define being a dick then. I would argue putting one of your models on my bases makes you a dick. Arguing and getting mad about it could make me a dick in the eyes of the person who did it because the rules says he can. Who's wrong in that case?

GUY: "Oh, you didn't talk to your horse you don't get that rule."
ME: "I'm not making an ass out of myself in public dude. If I wanted to do that I'd go to a club with bros and hoes to get smashed."
GUY: "RAW buddy, I've been acting like a child all game to get my rules, so should you."
ME: "Fine, I turn this roll into a 13, I win."
GUY: "You can't turn a 2d6 into a number it can't achieve."
ME: "RAW doesn't say I can't, just says I choose the outcome."

See where this is going...

Kelesis
23-07-2015, 08:40
In my town Aos is a total failure. i have spoken with 4 local shops and each one have sold 5-30 boxes of AoS per local shop. The same local shops sold 50-100 IOB boxes per local shop. The book have been sold even worst (0-12 per local shop), and the liberators boxes sells are even wors (0-2 per local shop). They are really scaried, since they don't excpect to sell nothing more in the next months regarding AoS.

Herzlos
23-07-2015, 09:45
First, I don't think AoS will tank and I don't think Total War will be ground breaking either (AoS has set it up to fail basically). And I hope WHF stays dead. Unlike the vocal minority (yes, those against AoS are the minority), I like the new direction. I don't have the decades of background to catch up with. I wanted a simpler game with narrative gameplay and great plastic miniatures set in high fantasy. I'm happy with this.

I don't think AoS will have any impact on TW:WH. Total War has a huge reputation amongst strategy gamers, and many will buy it just for the name, some will buy it for the fantasy element, and I dare say a few will buy it for "Warhammer" that wouldn't have bought it if it was on Aseroth.
Where AoS is set to fail is that TW will likely spark some nostalgia for Warhammer, long retired gamers will come into GW's to get back into Warhammer for the epic ranked battles, get a demo of AoS and think "WTH is this gak? I'll just stick with TW".

I'm pretty confident that TW will have a higher dollar amount of sales to AoS. Maybe 40K too.

For example, Total War: Rome 2 sold 1.13 million units in the first 6 months. At $60/copy (current steam price, converted from EUR) means it made in the region of $67.8m revenue. That's pretty much GW's entire revenue over the same time period.


Back on topic; GW aren't going to reintroduce WHFB, they might try and turn AoS into a new WHFB but they'll upset everyone *again*. They still won't fix the problems.

Buddy Bear
23-07-2015, 10:22
Warhammer's pretty much done. Age of Sigmar will be a colossal failure for GW, but they won't pull a WotC with D&D 5E and revitalize the franchise. They'll just bury it instead, because their corporate culture is utterly unlike that of WotC. WotC has demonstrated an ability to recognize their own faults and errors in judgment and correct them, something which GW has never demonstrated. They'll blame the setting, the fans, and maybe even Slaanesh for the successive failures of Warhammer Fantasy and Age of Sigmar, but they'll never blame themselves.

Deadhorse
23-07-2015, 10:38
To be honest, I had hoped that the decline in popularity for WFB (while competition in the fantasy miniature was steadily growing) would lead GW to some simple conclusions. Such as: lower costs of entry, better rules, better communication and advertising, adapt modern release cycle = more sales.

Unfortunately, it had the exact opposite effect. Since WFB was failing, GW took ALL of their mistaken assumptions and combined them into a terrible game while pretty much decapitating its predecessor and getting rid of its fans. They landed on the AoS beach, burned their ships behind them and put up a monument for good measure. So what happens when they realize this beach is actually part of a small island and there's pretty much nowhere to go?

This is not a first for GW. They have continued to destroy their products (once-core epic and also specialist games). They have not reversed their decisions despite the fact that some of these products are fairly popular (blood bowl) and there's obviously business opportunities there. So, after AoS tanks, they will have exactly one product left to destroy: 40k. And with unbound rules, a diorrhaea of releases to a shrinking customer base, the decline has already begun.

I think the core of GW's culture and management is arrogance. So we have to wait a couple of years until 40k starts really hurting and there are no more golden geese for GW to slaughter. Then someone with a clue will buy them out, fire the numskulls and maybe then we will see "Warhammer Classic".

Bloodknight
23-07-2015, 11:00
GW has never let us use the actual ruleset from WHFB in a computer game before.

-ish. Shadow of the Horned Rat and Dark Omen used the 4th and/or 5th edition rulesets, but used a faux real time turn order. Good games, though.

HelloKitty
23-07-2015, 12:51
AoS has already failed. I have been a fan of WHFB since the mid to late 80's. No edition change was ever this toxic before AoS. This literally killed the WHFB setting and split the community into a vastly angry and bitter majority to the few that for reasons I fail to understand actually like AoS. TW:W being a huge hit could force GW to bring back WHFB and make AoS a specialty game or kill it completely.

The change to 8th edition from 7th was pretty much the exact same response. My community was affected almost identically, and the rage storm on internet forums lasted months.

Shandor
23-07-2015, 13:04
The change to 8th edition from 7th was pretty much the exact same response. My community was affected almost identically, and the rage storm on internet forums lasted months.

The difference now is.. at the change from 7th to 8th edition you could go in a Local GW store and had alot partnerrs to play the new Edition with. Even some of the players did quit.
Now if you have luck you meet one single Guy painting Sigmarines the whole day on a saturday and waiting for someone to play with.

Sure they my personal and local experience. But this is how it turns out here in Berlin.

Wesser
23-07-2015, 13:06
The change to 8th edition from 7th was pretty much the exact same response. My community was affected almost identically, and the rage storm on internet forums lasted months.

Really? I don't remember that

I mostly remember people discussing good "Step Up" was and what little heated discussion there was had to do with Horde rule being OP (not rly so), TLOS and for/against premeasuring/random charges

So no real different from when 4th became 5th, 5th became 6th and 6th became 7th. I'm a bit surprised to hear your community was so affected (did they like guessing ranges that much?)


There's things I miss from previous editions and things I don't miss (fly high, winds of magic cards, guessing ranges and the semi-cheats that came of it), but no edition I've seen have seriously rocked my community. Maybe it helped that anyone who liked 7th or 6th could largely play on because the models coming for 8th were equally valid. With AoS you lose the model support for all editions of Warhammer...

EagleWarrior
23-07-2015, 13:17
I'm not sure GW would survive if AoS tanked hard. While I really dislike the decision to scrap the Fantasy world I hope AoS succeeds or we'll lose everything we have left, including 40k.

Tyelacoirii
23-07-2015, 13:22
Leaving aside the definition of failure if AoS tanks badly they are most likely just going to go with Warhammer AoS: 2nd Edition - this time with point costs, measure from bases and (possibly) a set of rules which doesn't leave you with more questions than answers.

I wanted to like AoS and still believe it could be saved but there is no indication GW see the problem.

MOMUS
23-07-2015, 13:41
The change to 8th edition from 7th was pretty much the exact same response. My community was affected almost identically, and the rage storm on internet forums lasted months.

This. Every few years GW does a shake up of a game system and every few years there is nerd rage.
When 8th first came out there was a lot of people that quit, lots of rage about hordes, balance, super spells, steadfast, BS shooting is dead etc
But a magical thing happened! 8th developed and evolved, the game was supported by GW and it became better and better to play. By the end of it, 8th it was a completely different game from the start, army composition for each race was completely different and the shift in meta through the years was fun (and made GW a lot of cash).
Right now we are at the start of a new 'edition' and still in the sky is falling stage.

HelloKitty
23-07-2015, 13:47
Really? I don't remember that

I mostly remember people discussing good "Step Up" was and what little heated discussion there was had to do with Horde rule being OP (not rly so), TLOS and for/against premeasuring/random charges

So no real different from when 4th became 5th, 5th became 6th and 6th became 7th. I'm a bit surprised to hear your community was so affected (did they like guessing ranges that much?)


There's things I miss from previous editions and things I don't miss (fly high, winds of magic cards, guessing ranges and the semi-cheats that came of it), but no edition I've seen have seriously rocked my community. Maybe it helped that anyone who liked 7th or 6th could largely play on because the models coming for 8th were equally valid. With AoS you lose the model support for all editions of Warhammer...

A forum search on these very forums from 2010 - 2011 will pull up dozens of threads filled with all kinds of bile about 8th edition. Focused on the killer spells, random charges, and random terrain and how those things broke tournament play and made it "ranDUMB".

HelloKitty
23-07-2015, 13:48
The difference now is.. at the change from 7th to 8th edition you could go in a Local GW store and had alot partnerrs to play the new Edition with. Even some of the players did quit.
Now if you have luck you meet one single Guy painting Sigmarines the whole day on a saturday and waiting for someone to play with.

Sure they my personal and local experience. But this is how it turns out here in Berlin.

That may be how it is in Berlin and I'm sorry to hear that. We are fortunate that we still kept about 1/3 of our fantasy players and they are actively doing AoS down at the store.

Borri
23-07-2015, 14:01
A forum search on these very forums from 2010 - 2011 will pull up dozens of threads filled with all kinds of bile about 8th edition. Focused on the killer spells, random charges, and random terrain and how those things broke tournament play and made it "ranDUMB".
No I think that this is different. The scale of the change and the reaction to those changes are way bigger. I was around the forum at that time and was a big cheerleader for 8th. The destruction of the warhammer world, the move to new bases and the removal of everything that made this a strategy game are all having an impact on the community. This isn't just an edition change. It is a game changer, pardon the pun. :)

EagleWarrior
23-07-2015, 14:09
I agree, change always annoys some people, but this is on a far bigger scale than before. I've seen a bunch of editions for games I like and I've never seen anything as profound as the changes for AoS. I'd call it stopping one game and starting a new one using totally different fluff some of the same models rather than a new edition.

draccan
23-07-2015, 14:22
A forum search on these very forums from 2010 - 2011 will pull up dozens of threads filled with all kinds of bile about 8th edition. Focused on the killer spells, random charges, and random terrain and how those things broke tournament play and made it "ranDUMB".

What you say about the 7th to 8th move is not comparable to the Age of Sh*tstorm we are seeing now. It is simply not true. Yes some people quit, some people hated the changes, but the majority of the posters here and elsewhere seemed to be fine with the changes. I am one of those people.
Just picking a random thread with a poll:
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?264785-8th-edition-Warhammer-for-stupid-people
287 people preferred 8th.
77 thought it was too easy or simplistic.

Yes there was rage. This is the Internet - there is always rage. But nowhere near the magnitude of this.

MOMUS
23-07-2015, 14:22
I agree, change always annoys some people, but this is on a far bigger scale than before. I've seen a bunch of editions for games I like and I've never seen anything as profound as the changes for AoS. I'd call it stopping one game and starting a new one using totally different fluff some of the same models rather than a new edition.

Do you remember the change from 2nd ed 40k to third edition?
because that's exactly what this is.
who's this strange new race? Why can't I use my squats anymore? My space marine librarian only had one psychic power?! This is crud! :mad:

Borri
23-07-2015, 14:34
Do you remember the change from 2nd ed 40k to third edition?
because that's exactly what this is.
who's this strange new race? Why can't I use my squats anymore? My space marine librarian only had one psychic power?! This is crud! :mad:
I was a manager at GW at that time. No, this is different.

Denny
23-07-2015, 14:52
I'm not sure GW would survive if AoS tanked hard. While I really dislike the decision to scrap the Fantasy world I hope AoS succeeds or we'll lose everything we have left, including 40k.

I think 40K would bring in enough cash for GW to survive (at least for now) but I agree that, if AoS ultimately tanks, GW will just drop fantasy altogether.

Look at it from their POV; GW dropped Warhammer Fantasy because they didn't think it brought in enough money.
If AoS also doesn't bring in enough money then I think that would be considered evidence by GW that Fantasy just doesn't make enough money period.
I can't see how that would lead them to returning to Warhammer Fantasy.

EagleWarrior
23-07-2015, 15:05
Look at it from their POV; GW dropped Warhammer Fantasy because they didn't think it brought in enough money.
If AoS also doesn't bring in enough money then I think that would be considered evidence by GW that Fantasy just doesn't make enough money period.
I can't see how that would lead them to returning to Warhammer Fantasy.

I agree. At least AoS will allow people who want to keep playing fantasy to buy the models (those that don't refuse to support them that is). It won't be as bad as it is for specialist games, where it's getting really hard to find models.

Sothron
23-07-2015, 15:56
The change to 8th edition from 7th was pretty much the exact same response. My community was affected almost identically, and the rage storm on internet forums lasted months.

I am glad several other posters have disagreed with this before I could respond. I have played WHFB and Rogue Trader/40k from pretty much the start. No edition change has been this drastic and this reviled by the vast majority of the playerbase. GW literally destroyed WHFB and replaced it with a new setting. Nothing compares to that or to the inevitable reaction from the players.

HelloKitty
23-07-2015, 16:03
I am glad several other posters have disagreed with this before I could respond. I have played WHFB and Rogue Trader/40k from pretty much the start. No edition change has been this drastic and this reviled by the vast majority of the playerbase. GW literally destroyed WHFB and replaced it with a new setting. Nothing compares to that or to the inevitable reaction from the players.

There is really no way to quantify this one way or the other so - i'll just say we can agree to disagree. I know our website was hacked and taken down in 2010 because we were supporting 8th edition instead of supporting 7th. I know that our community (where I live) was toxic and split and at each others' throats over the 7th to 8th change. I know that online forums were filled with threads much like these today about how GW ruined fantasy and destroyed it and that there would be nothing left of GW in a couple of years. These can all be found on this very forum by doing a forum search (to include polls asking people if they'd ever buy 8th edition (many said NO they would never buy a single 8th edition model or book)) and asking if 8th was successful in their area (which many said NO it caused people to quit for WM/H). many posts about how the new 8th starter box couldn't be given away for free. I know that we lost a good 2/3 of our fantasy players in 2010 when 8th was released, just like today we lost a good 2/3 of our fantasy players when AoS dropped.

I have also played WHFB for over twenty years. Every time there is a rage war, people try to say that this one is the worst of them all. Since we cannot quantify what that means with any actual data we can just agree to disagree.

draccan
23-07-2015, 16:07
There is really no way to quantify this one way or the other so - i'll just say we can agree to disagree. I know our website was hacked and taken down in 2010 because we were supporting 8th edition instead of supporting 7th. I know that our community (where I live) was toxic and split and at each others' throats over the 7th to 8th change. I know that online forums were filled with threads much like these today about how GW ruined fantasy and destroyed it and that there would be nothing left of GW in a couple of years. These can all be found on this very forum by doing a forum search (to include polls asking people if they'd ever buy 8th edition (many said NO they would never buy a single 8th edition model or book)) and asking if 8th was successful in their area (which many said NO it caused people to quit for WM/H). many posts about how the new 8th starter box couldn't be given away for free. I know that we lost a good 2/3 of our fantasy players in 2010 when 8th was released, just like today we lost a good 2/3 of our fantasy players when AoS dropped.

I have also played WHFB for over twenty years. Every time there is a rage war, people try to say that this one is the worst of them all. Since we cannot quantify what that means with any actual data we can just agree to disagree.

Not sure if you missed what I wrote:


What you say about the 7th to 8th move is not comparable to the Age of Sh*tstorm we are seeing now. It is simply not true. Yes some people quit, some people hated the changes, but the majority of the posters here and elsewhere seemed to be fine with the changes. I am one of those people.
Just picking a random thread with a poll:
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?264785-8th-edition-Warhammer-for-stupid-people
287 people preferred 8th.
77 thought it was too easy or simplistic.

Yes there was rage. This is the Internet - there is always rage. But nowhere near the magnitude of this.

The polls and comments on Dakka, Warseer, most major gaming forums, youtube channels as well as people I speak to RL is overwhelmingly negative. People say those polls don't count. With 8th. ed. the result was quite different.

Reading people's replies back when 8th. was released there wasn't the same reactions. Some yes. But not the overwhelming majority.

MOMUS
23-07-2015, 16:13
I was a manager at GW at that time. No, this is different.

Seems to me it's exactly what it is. 2nd ed was insanely complex every item had a different rule, club/sword/maul/dagger/hammer, 50 mission cards!?Dark millennium Wargear cards? Psychic phase (which was a game in itself) etc
3rd ed simplified the game enormously and it remained that way for some time. Slowly over time 40k has become more complex with each edition more stuff is added back in. 3rd ed reset the game.
AoS is a warhammer reset of similar proportions.

HelloKitty
23-07-2015, 16:13
I read what you wrote. There is no way for you to quantify your argument, nor is there a way for me to quantify mine. All we can do is poke each other in the chest with our fingers and go "no, I'm right you're wrong", and have a nerd slap-fight, which is pointless.

The result from 8th was not that different. All of the polls and comments on all of the major gaming forums when 8th dropped were overwhelmingly negative, particularly amongst the tournament crowd.

Spiney Norman
23-07-2015, 16:20
A forum search on these very forums from 2010 - 2011 will pull up dozens of threads filled with all kinds of bile about 8th edition. Focused on the killer spells, random charges, and random terrain and how those things broke tournament play and made it "ranDUMB".

You're right, there was rage then and there is rage now, there is always nerd rage at change, but this is still a different situation.

However much you disliked the rule changes for 8th the game was fairly self explanatory to set up and play. I can't even set up a proper game of AoS without developing a points system from the ground up, we're not just looking at a few unsatisfactory mechanics or special rules, there is a vital part of the games core mechanics which is just missing from AOS.

draccan
23-07-2015, 16:24
I read what you wrote. There is no way for you to quantify your argument, nor is there a way for me to quantify mine. All we can do is poke each other in the chest with our fingers and go "no, I'm right you're wrong", and have a nerd slap-fight, which is pointless.

The result from 8th was not that different. All of the polls and comments on all of the major gaming forums when 8th dropped were overwhelmingly negative, particularly amongst the tournament crowd.

I just showed you a poll from Warseer from back then that was overwhelmingly positive because you claimed people were mainly negative back then on Warseer. And you respond by saying there are other polls out there on "major gaming forums" that were predominantly negative.
You also claim that there is no way to quantify it, which is what I did exactly.

So maybe time for you to send us a link to some of all those negative polls?!

HelloKitty
23-07-2015, 16:27
I just showed you a poll from Warseer from back then that was overwhelmingly positive because you claimed people were mainly negative back then on Warseer. And you respond by saying there are other polls out there on "major gaming forums" that were predominantly negative.
You also claim that there is no way to quantify it, which is what I did exactly.

So maybe time for you to send us a link to some of all those negative polls?!

Because I'm not interested in wasting a lot of time digging up a poll so that you can post another one just to win an internet argument :) Largely me posting old polls and you posting old polls proves absolutely zero.

The people that were there during the time know what I'm talking about. Thats good enough for me.

draccan
23-07-2015, 16:30
Another positive poll:
http://www.ordofanaticus.com/index.php?/topic/4925-poll-warhammer-8th-edition-how-you-like-it/

Took me seconds to find.

And yes I was there for 8th. as well and every edition including and since 3rd. ed.

Sothron
23-07-2015, 16:36
When one person says something and several others say the opposite, well, kinda says it all. I have been a fan of this company and a player since pretty much it started. There has never been a change this profound before and no reaction as overwhelmingly negative. Yes, there have been other editions that caused some nerd rage but nothing to this degree.

vintagetcp
23-07-2015, 16:38
New account but I was there for 8th, and 7th, and 6th, and this is not the same- this is an entirely new game.

This is not 2nd-3rd 40k. It is an entirely new game.

New setting, new game, your old armies are no longer valid. You get some mediocre random monkey cheese rules to play with but soon they'll be replaced by Darke Aelf Murderhosts and Steamhead Duardin Hammercadres and Tzeentch Changeway Fatechange Birdwarriors... this is all really laughably bad.

Imagine if, instead of small get-you-by lists, 3rd ed 40k had involved the tyranids eating the galaxy and every faction dying. They release all-new, aesthetically and tonally dissimilar models and fluff and the game is completely different. Would 40k still be around? I doubt it. 3rd ed was still 40k- Age of Sigmar has just about none of the things that drew me or my friends to fantasy- not the massed blocks of troops, not the tongue-in-cheek gothic horror fantasy, not the slashed sleeves and derring-do of the Empire. Karl Franz is gone and in his place we have a faceless, immortal God-King. It is totally not the same.

And for what it's worth, the 3rd ed 40k rules were at least, well, rules.

Bloodknight
23-07-2015, 16:40
3rd ed. 40K didn't kill off the fluff. It's not really comparable.

That said, I'm not sure if 8th was a success, it felt like they bled a lot of players that didn't come back when the game finally got somewhat good towards the end when the metas shifted away from huge monetarily expensive blocks and stuff, hence low sales, hence Warhammer getting killed off and replaced with Sigmarines and their punching bags of Khorne.

Overtninja
23-07-2015, 16:42
It's easy to get a distorted view of the community response to something when you are relying on places like Warseer for it - this place is an echo chamber of negative responses. I'm surprised that people here haven't started calling anyone who actually enjoys AoS a GW shill like /tg does, to be honest. Most people here are so bitter about AoS replacing WFB that they are making threads like this, where they stand in a circle and wring their hands spitefully expecting the demise of the game, the IP, and hopefully GW as well. If you expect a reasonable cross-section of the hobby from a site like this, you're going to be rather disappointed.

vintagetcp
23-07-2015, 16:50
It's easy to get a distorted view of the community response to something when you are relying on places like Warseer for it - this place is an echo chamber of negative responses. I'm surprised that people here haven't started calling anyone who actually enjoys AoS a GW shill like /tg does, to be honest. Most people here are so bitter about AoS replacing WFB that they are making threads like this, where they stand in a circle and wring their hands spitefully expecting the demise of the game, the IP, and hopefully GW as well. If you expect a reasonable cross-section of the hobby from a site like this, you're going to be rather disappointed.

Meanwhile in the real world, the limited edition of AoS has yet to sell out.

Bloodknight
23-07-2015, 16:54
this place is an echo chamber of negative responses.

There are a lot of places that think that warseer is crawling with fanbois :D.

MagicAngle
23-07-2015, 16:54
AoS is a warhammer reset of similar proportions.

Fundamentally disagree.

From 2nd to 3rd, the fluff remained essentially the same, and the fundamental game mechanic - ie a skirmish wargame - remained the same. 3rd ed was not set in an entirely different universe, nor did it undergo a fundamental game mechanic change from skirmish to ranked battle.

Speaking personally, I could have just about swallowed it if they had retained the same universe but dramatically simplified the mechanics, or changed the universe but retained essentially the same game mechanics. By changing both the fluff and the game mechanics it feels like an entirely unrelated system, which just happens to support using the same miniatures.

The 1-2 punch of new system and new fluff is, for me, what makes this feel very different from 2nd to 3rd 40k.

Spiney Norman
23-07-2015, 16:58
Seems to me it's exactly what it is. 2nd ed was insanely complex every item had a different rule, club/sword/maul/dagger/hammer, 50 mission cards!?Dark millennium Wargear cards? Psychic phase (which was a game in itself) etc
3rd ed simplified the game enormously and it remained that way for some time. Slowly over time 40k has become more complex with each edition more stuff is added back in. 3rd ed reset the game.
AoS is a warhammer reset of similar proportions.

Except that 3rd edition still pad points values, which meant it was at least playable out of the box, AoS is not.


Meanwhile in the real world, the limited edition of AoS has yet to sell out.

And given how fast the end times books disappeared on preorder, that is a worrying trend.

Ollanius Pius
23-07-2015, 17:07
No I think that this is different. The scale of the change and the reaction to those changes are way bigger. I was around the forum at that time and was a big cheerleader for 8th. The destruction of the warhammer world, the move to new bases and the removal of everything that made this a strategy game are all having an impact on the community. This isn't just an edition change. It is a game changer, pardon the pun. :)

Exactly this. I was around as well, and this is not your run-of-the-mill nerd rage but a completely different level. I mean c'mon guys, 7th -> 8th was about a couple of admittedly sometimes drastic rule changes, this time we're talking about sinking what was a key line for decades for a completely different game - it's 110 % different, not just 60 %. We're talking models, rules, books, background, forums, name of the game, everything, the dog and the kitchen sink. Whoever believes the change or the rage about it are just the same old, same old is delusionary. This is vastly more different than even 2nd to 3rd 40k, and that one killed communities all over the world in days.

draccan
23-07-2015, 17:09
scale too .... :rolleyes:

Overtninja
23-07-2015, 17:17
The rules are free, the impetus to own them in any printed form is significantly reduced.

Hoffa
23-07-2015, 17:18
Because I'm not interested in wasting a lot of time digging up a poll so that you can post another one just to win an internet argument :) Largely me posting old polls and you posting old polls proves absolutely zero.

The people that were there during the time know what I'm talking about. Thats good enough for me.

I was there and I say you are miss remembering. There was rage true but no where near this scale, Back in 2010 it was 75% positive to 25% negative now it is the other way around. Your local community might have been different of course, yours seem to have been one of the most 8:th edition hostile in the world. Funnily enough your community now is one of the most AoS positive in the world. (Even so you seem to have lost a lot of players recently)

Ollanius Pius
23-07-2015, 17:21
3rd ed. 40K didn't kill off the fluff. It's not really comparable.

That said, I'm not sure if 8th was a success, it felt like they bled a lot of players that didn't come back when the game finally got somewhat good towards the end when the metas shifted away from huge monetarily expensive blocks and stuff, hence low sales, hence Warhammer getting killed off and replaced with Sigmarines and their punching bags of Khorne.

That was indeed the main problem of 8th (and, more precisely, hordes), namely that many people felt they were not only paying exorbitant prices for 10 dudes but now needed 80+.


It's easy to get a distorted view of the community response to something when you are relying on places like Warseer for it - this place is an echo chamber of negative responses.


Not true. I was active on W-E, Dakka, Warhammer Online, Warhammer Board, Tablepott, Eastern Fringe, Chamber of the Everchosen, that HE forum and more, and by and large, people expressed the same opinions.

Overtninja
23-07-2015, 17:31
That was indeed the main problem of 8th (and, more precisely, hordes), namely that many people felt they were not only paying exorbitant prices for 10 dudes but now needed 80+.



Not true. I was active on W-E, Dakka, Warhammer Online, Warhammer Board, Tablepott, Eastern Fringe, Chamber of the Everchosen, that HE forum and more, and by and large, people expressed the same opinions.

I think I would be too were I more heavily invested in WFB as a game system, and the WFB world as a setting, because the game they bought minis to play no longer has any future releases, and people were rather attached to the setting (for reasons I don't understand, but whatever floats your boat, really.) People do have a right to be upset about this sort of thing. What I find displeasing is that people are going out of their way to find fault with the game that replaced it - when you respond to anything out of spite it's never a good thing. Most of the community response towards AoS has been spiteful - unwilling to even give it a fair try as a game system, and making sure that anyone on the fence gets a poor impression of it before they even try. If the goal is to sabotage a hobby, people are doing a great job of it.

Also, people really are more vocal about things they hate than things they enjoy, this goes for any online forum.

Hoffa
23-07-2015, 17:31
It's easy to get a distorted view of the community response to something when you are relying on places like Warseer for it - this place is an echo chamber of negative responses. I'm surprised that people here haven't started calling anyone who actually enjoys AoS a GW shill like /tg does, to be honest. Most people here are so bitter about AoS replacing WFB that they are making threads like this, where they stand in a circle and wring their hands spitefully expecting the demise of the game, the IP, and hopefully GW as well. If you expect a reasonable cross-section of the hobby from a site like this, you're going to be rather disappointed.

I frequent several forums and warseer is the most AoS positive of them.

Lexington
23-07-2015, 17:33
This. Every few years GW does a shake up of a game system and every few years there is nerd rage.
When 8th first came out there was a lot of people that quit, lots of rage about hordes, balance, super spells, steadfast, BS shooting is dead etc
But a magical thing happened! 8th developed and evolved, the game was supported by GW and it became better and better to play. By the end of it, 8th it was a completely different game from the start, army composition for each race was completely different and the shift in meta through the years was fun (and made GW a lot of cash).
Right now we are at the start of a new 'edition' and still in the sky is falling stage.
The problem here is that GW clearly didn't make a lot of cash with 8th. The tumbling sales of Fantasy preceding and during 8th Edition are what made a big shake-up like the End Times/AoS necessary, after all. Let's say the number of Fantasy players has been halved since the days of late 7th/early 8th. Halving it again for AoS - and I'd say that's a conservative comparative estimate, as in 20 years of playing, I've never seen an edition change draw the disgust AoS has - does not seem to be a great idea on the whole.

MOMUS
23-07-2015, 17:35
I frequent several forums and warseer is the most AoS positive of them.

Forums are a pretty negative place in general though, try visiting the GW general discussion section if you're feeling brave.
For a more realistic and grounded approach try your local gaming club (not GW) or local tournament/event.

draccan
23-07-2015, 17:37
(...) What I find displeasing is that people are going out of their way to find fault with the game that replaced it - when you respond to anything out of spite it's never a good thing. (...)

Oh you don't have to go out of your way to find faults with AoS. All you need to do is summarize:
* 4 pages of rules
* No army composition rules / points
* Bring all you can to the table
* Sudden death mechanism where the strongest army with fewer models can win over the weakest with the most models
* Generic unit types amassing on the middle of the battlefield rolling 3+s and 4+s
* Changing bases to round
* New scale of models
* Names like retributers and bloodwhatnot
* Plan to end support of all previous armies.

Is that sabotaging? Is that spiteful? Or is that just the plain old truth? So you are saying, "what's not to like?" ?!?!?

It seems you are going out of your way to defend AoS with some very thin arguments and veiled attacks on those who doesn't like it...

Zywus
23-07-2015, 17:43
It's easy to get a distorted view of the community response to something when you are relying on places like Warseer for it - this place is an echo chamber of negative responses. I'm surprised that people here haven't started calling anyone who actually enjoys AoS a GW shill like /tg does, to be honest. Most people here are so bitter about AoS replacing WFB that they are making threads like this, where they stand in a circle and wring their hands spitefully expecting the demise of the game, the IP, and hopefully GW as well. If you expect a reasonable cross-section of the hobby from a site like this, you're going to be rather disappointed.r
While fora in general tend to exaggerate extreme feelings in either directions do you honestly think that all polls on every wargaming forum is not at all representative for potential AoS customers?

Could you provide a link to a single poll on a single forum that does not show a majority of pollers disaffected with AoS?

Of course I do not claim that a Warseer poll having a 70% dissafection rate mean that 70% of all potential wargamers feel this way. Although it's IMO highly reasonable to assume at the very least half of that number is valid for the gaming population as a whole. So that would be around a third of players lost. Unless AoS recoup those to a high enough degree AoS will be less profitable than WHFB, a game GW chose to axe.

As for the OP question I'd say no. It's too little too late. Even if they'll later will re-release a Warhammer edition with the changes some of us think would re-invigorate WHFB, too many of the original fans will have moved on to other game systems, quit already or will be too disenfranchised with GW the company to have anything to do with them again.

It's often said that it's much easier retaining customers than attracting new. The customers GW lose now will probably not come back. And most of the new AoS recruits will be gone within a year at best.

MOMUS
23-07-2015, 17:45
Oh you don't have to go out of your way to find faults with AoS. All you need to do is summarize:
* 4 pages of rules
* No army composition rules / points
* Bring all you can to the table
* Sudden death mechanism where the strongest army with fewer models can win over the weakest with the most models
* Generic unit types amassing on the middle of the battlefield rolling 3+s and 4+s

Is that sabotaging? Is that spiteful? Or is that just the plain old truth?

It seems you are going out of your way to defend AoS with some very thin arguments and veiled attacks on those who doesn't like it...


I think it's the view like this that sees the game in black and white.
When people started 8th they didn't all take one super horde in the folding fortress with twin lvl4 spitting out dwellers and final trans.
you could have, but 99% of people didn't.

DonkeyMan
23-07-2015, 17:45
If AoS fails and TW: Warhammer is a phenominal success, I doubt that we would still see WFB back.
AoS would be canned and GW would keep licensing out Warhammer Fantasy to video games companies.

I can't see WFB ever comming back unless GW lends out its license to Mantic for example, for them to do a "WFB classic" wargame.

vintagetcp
23-07-2015, 17:53
Forums are a pretty negative place in general though, try visiting the GW general discussion section if you're feeling brave.
For a more realistic and grounded approach try your local gaming club (not GW) or local tournament/event.

For years, my local stores and groups have been quite positive- about warmahordes, Malifaux, FoW, Bolt Action, Infinity...

Fantasy is dead, and the 40k group continues to shrink. The negative reactions on the forums bare that out. And in real life everyone I've spoken to thinks AoS isn't just bad, but laughable. They don't hate it so much as snigger at the Ground Marines and bloodgore bloodbloodsters and "Vandus Hammerhand".

draccan
23-07-2015, 17:57
I think it's the view like this that sees the game in black and white.
When people started 8th they didn't all take one super horde in the folding fortress with twin lvl4 spitting out dwellers and final trans.
you could have, but 99% of people didn't.

Replacing a beloved game and rich fluffy world with AoS is not just bad IMHO but an insult to every adult gamer who supported GW over the years. Like the poster just above, it is "laughable".

People can like it if they want. Everyone is entitled an opinion. But quoting the factual game functions is seeing things in black and white?!?

MOMUS
23-07-2015, 18:05
But quoting the factual game functions is seeing things in black and white?!?

As I quoted factual game functions of 8th edition.

My point was people rarely played in that way, the community took what GW made and adapted, changed and rewrote the game into something that the community wanted.
the same with every edition.

Mateobard
23-07-2015, 18:09
Oh you don't have to go out of your way to find faults with AoS. All you need to do is summarize:
* 4 pages of rules
* No army composition rules / points
* Bring all you can to the table
* Sudden death mechanism where the strongest army with fewer models can win over the weakest with the most models
* Generic unit types amassing on the middle of the battlefield rolling 3+s and 4+s
* Changing bases to round
* New scale of models
* Names like retributers and bloodwhatnot
* Plan to end support of all previous armies.

Is that sabotaging? Is that spiteful? Or is that just the plain old truth? So you are saying, "what's not to like?" ?!?!?

It seems you are going out of your way to defend AoS with some very thin arguments and veiled attacks on those who doesn't like it...

You forgot "multiple ways to win at the top of turn 1 after everyone goes through a lengthy individual model deployment phase".

I wonder how much success 40k will see when Games Worshop gives 40k the Age of Sigmar treatment and people haul all their stuff out only to be roflstomped on the top of turn one because NarrativeNotaGameCompanyWeDon'tTalktoGamersBlahBla h.

dwarfhold13
23-07-2015, 18:10
My favorite part of all of it is that they needed to lower the price point to get into the game. Fine, get rid of the need to buy books. The funniest part is, they just increased the price per volume of the plastic they sell. Essentially, you may need less figures to play, but you are still paying them what you would have to play the "old" game. Like I said in a post a few weeks ago. It's fine that they released something drastically different. I AM one of those veteran gamers that ended up butt hurt, but at my age, I have decisions to make anyway. They just fixed the wrong thing. You want new people playing, make it fun and engaging on all aspects like it used to be. The sales would happen. People don't just coincidentally purchase less when prices go up. They have outrun the value that a lot of people see and then pull the rug out of the people that hung on for the sake of hanging on. My prediction is that when the newness wears off and the honeymoon is over, they will be scrambling to figure the next thing that will sell. They are simply on a short term sales strategy rather than a long term one.

Hoffa
23-07-2015, 18:11
Forums are a pretty negative place in general though, try visiting the GW general discussion section if you're feeling brave.
For a more realistic and grounded approach try your local gaming club (not GW) or local tournament/event.

Eh no. lets just say that warseer is a lot more positive than my local scene. Also most people in the clubs are members of at least one forum.

vintagetcp
23-07-2015, 18:13
You forgot "multiple ways to win at the top of turn 1 after everyone goes through a lengthy individual model deployment phase".

Ah, but in the Narrative School of Games Design, this is not a bug, but a feature. In fact if you play with the goal of "winning", you're doing it wrong. Just buy Citadel Miniatures and Citadel Hobby Supplies, as many as possible, and place them on the table. Roll dice, mash your miniatures together. Buy some new Citadel Miniatures to replace the smashed ones. You're living the Games Workshop Hobby.

Niall78
23-07-2015, 18:20
r

Of course I do not claim that a Warseer poll having a 70% dissafection rate mean that 70% of all potential wargamers feel this way.

It could actually be worse than you think if you view the majority of contributors to Warhammer forums as being fans and players of GW games. If 70% of fans are showing major dissatisfaction non GW fans or floating war-gamers are likely having a much more adverse reaction - they have no love for the product, setting or company - they'll view it with cold hard detachment. Under that kind of scrutiny AoS will rightfully get ripped to pieces.

Ollanius Pius
23-07-2015, 18:39
What I find displeasing is that people are going out of their way to find fault with the game that replaced it - when you respond to anything out of spite it's never a good thing. Most of the community response towards AoS has been spiteful - unwilling to even give it a fair try as a game system, and making sure that anyone on the fence gets a poor impression of it before they even try. If the goal is to sabotage a hobby, people are doing a great job of it.


You are just misrepresenting people's motivations, jumping to conclusions or both. An unwillingness to give it a so-called "fair try" is not the same as being spiteful. It's a natural consumer's reaction to every product they do not believe useful. I do not believe any product or any company deserves a "fair try", or that this argument holds any water. Don't like it (for whatever reason, even the paint job on a Marine spike), don't buy it.



Also, people really are more vocal about things they hate than things they enjoy, this goes for any online forum.


Not in my experience.

gormaster
23-07-2015, 18:39
I dropped out of table top gaming a few years ago because 8th ed just lost me. It was designed to sell models and lost much of it`s charm very quickly. When I heard GW was bringing out a new edition I was excited, until I saw what they had done. What a joke! I guess I`ll check back in in a few years and see if they have come to their senses.

Kegslayer
23-07-2015, 18:43
8th sucked. No one was buying or starting. GW needed change. AoS is change. You may not like it but others do. Not everyone comes on forums. There are plenty facebook groups that support AoS and it is growing. GW don't care, gw don't care about competitive games for competitive people. GW owe us nothing, we are not entitled to anything. So what you've spent money all of us have and.......... AoS may fail where you are but its doing fine in various other places. Oh the limited ed book hasn't sold out nor did marines or the much vaunted ad mech. The regular book has needed to be re stocked on more than one occasion. AoS ig gw's eyes is a success

Deadhorse
23-07-2015, 18:56
AoS is change. You may not like it but others do. Not everyone comes on forums. There are plenty facebook groups that support AoS and it is growing.

Yeah, it seems that happened because few of the people who like AoS seem to have the drive or ability to run a forum, and existing forums are occupied by anti-AoS people. So the AoS people went into exile.

As for the change part, getting run over by a truck probably means change, as in "no more walking". Not necessarily a happy one though. I'll hazard this argument: when 8th came out, quite a few people were unhappy with it (about a third of the online community, if forum polls of the time are anything to go by). And it tanked.

Now we have Aos. Over 2/3rds of the online community are unhappy with it. And yet you think it will succeed because... children will buy it? What is this mysterious customer base GW is looking to tap?

Ollanius Pius
23-07-2015, 19:00
It's often said that it's much easier retaining customers than attracting new. The customers GW lose now will probably not come back. And most of the new AoS recruits will be gone within a year at best.

Exactly. This is not a but The Golden Rule of marketers around the globe. GW is the only company I know that believes always acquiring completely new customers instead of customer retention is a good idea.

Kegslayer
23-07-2015, 19:03
I bought it and I'm 30, my gaming friends are all 25 to 35. Have a group of 20 players. All they bought it. Some more than one copy. Its sold well what can I say. Just cos the internet says its failing doesn't mean it is. I'd never have introduced my kid to gw games if it wasn't for AoS and a lot of parents I know are the same. It may or may not succeed but currently no one can say even though some of you are it's just not possible to say. Give it a couple of years and we will all know

evilsponge
23-07-2015, 19:05
I bought it and I'm 30, my gaming friends are all 25 to 35. Have a group of 20 players. All they bought it. Some more than one copy. Its sold well what can I say. Just cos the internet says its failing doesn't mean it is. I'd never have introduced my kid to gw games if it wasn't for AoS and a lot of parents I know are the same. It may or may not succeed but currently no one can say even though some of you are it's just not possible to say. Give it a couple of years and we will all know

Conversely, my FLGS has decided to no longer stock AoS because of lack of interest. My store pulls in a fairly large and young magic crowd, and the guy who runs our 40k group held free demos for anyone who wanted to try it, but he just couldn't generate enough interest from customers to keep the game on the self.

Kegslayer
23-07-2015, 19:11
Conversely, my FLGS has decided to no longer stock AoS because of lack of interest


Most likely not the only one. Its the same as any other game though. People will love it or hate it. Fact remains here and now though that AoS is here and staying no amount of naysaying will change that. What's sad is that its the community that is fracturing itself with the rubbish and vitriol from both sides. Get over it. Enjoy what you enjoy and leave people be

vintagetcp
23-07-2015, 19:13
8th sucked. No one was buying or starting. GW needed change. AoS is change. You may not like it but others do. Not everyone comes on forums. There are plenty facebook groups that support AoS and it is growing. GW don't care, gw don't care about competitive games for competitive people. GW owe us nothing, we are not entitled to anything. So what you've spent money all of us have and.......... AoS may fail where you are but its doing fine in various other places. Oh the limited ed book hasn't sold out nor did marines or the much vaunted ad mech. The regular book has needed to be re stocked on more than one occasion. AoS ig gw's eyes is a success

And GW is a very poorly run company with some of the worst marketing and PR around. What they see as success and failure aren't worth much.

Ollanius Pius
23-07-2015, 19:16
8th sucked. No one was buying or starting.


Where are the numbers for this outrageous claim, Kegslayer? GW never published them. GW as a whole has not been doing well over the last past years.



GW needed change. AoS is change.


Nobody ever needs change (Salmon P. Chases will do nicely though if you get the pun). GW needed a marketing department, customer relations, PR, price changes, social media, market research and a host of other things that have been discussed to death. It certainly didn't need to get rid of 2/3 of its customers.

draccan
23-07-2015, 19:19
I bought it and I'm 30, my gaming friends are all 25 to 35. Have a group of 20 players. All they bought it. Some more than one copy. Its sold well what can I say. Just cos the internet says its failing doesn't mean it is. I'd never have introduced my kid to gw games if it wasn't for AoS and a lot of parents I know are the same. It may or may not succeed but currently no one can say even though some of you are it's just not possible to say. Give it a couple of years and we will all know

Must be a special community where 20 people have come together and all invested in AoS.

Kegslayer
23-07-2015, 19:22
Must be a special community where 20 people have come together and all invested in AoS.


Trying to be funny or more of a troll? Hard to say as well you're not good at either. I know it pains you that people are buying AoS but they are so poor you.

vintagetcp
23-07-2015, 19:23
Must be a special community where 20 people have come together and all invested in AoS.

Not only that, but many are parents and would never have considered buying their kids miniatures until the Light of Sigmar thundered down from the heavens...

But these past two weeks have miraculously changed everyone's mind, and thousands of quid were dropped on sets and sets of the same models. Thus will it be night unto ten generations.

The Finecast Eternals are born. They wish only to spend in Sigmar's name.

Hoffa
23-07-2015, 19:30
I suggest not paying to much attention to Kegslayer. He just might be trolling.

Turin321
23-07-2015, 19:35
My point was people rarely played in that way, the community took what GW made and adapted, changed and rewrote the game into something that the community wanted.
the same with every edition.

I can't see it that way, really !
I survived WHFB 3rd to 4th - a quite big jump with changes to the profile and every Edition jump thereafter.
I'm not chained to the World Background either.
So I understand the perception of it being "just another one". - NOPE !

This definitely is different.
- Gone is the Basic Profile way of M, WS, BS,... A Core Change amongst others if you want to talk rules (Stark rules contrast)
- Gone is the Background (End Times away)
- Gone is the Aesthetic - Basic Fantasy gone the Steampunk 40K Way. (An important part for ALL Painters and Collectors)

So neither is this a new Edition or a Reboot. Its a completely new Basegame.
It will maybe find its followers and maybe loose a lot of old Gamers, but it won't reset the Market to GW Dominance, I can't see that at all.

So I guess AoS will try to evolve, but my guess is it will loose out to competition (and there is a lot good competition in the market nowadays compared to the old times) and simmer down to a (financially) disappointing end.
And then what, GW?
The decision makers behind the handling of WHFB will have earned their money and be gone, the shareholders won't be satisfied and maybe they will try a reboot, but (my guess is) that will be too late. Old fans will be angrily gone and the new fans won't be as deeply involved as the old ones and just leave.

For the heck of it I can't understand Management that fiddles with (more or less successful but beloved) Intellectual Properties.
They always seem to get it wrong. Always want the fast, big moneygrab. *Sigh*
Be consistent, produce quality and support - you will be there in the future. Don't do this and be gone.

Dark and Gloomy, isn't it?
Seen things like this before.
The positive note here is everybody will find new ways to game.

So, no - It's not the same as with every edition.

Overtninja
23-07-2015, 19:36
See, this is the garbage I was talking about. People just can't stand to see anyone like AoS, or enjoy playing it, or thinking it's a fun game to play that actually has merits. Anyone who says so is pounced upon, and disparaged in various ways, and their intellect and those of the other players they are playing with are called into question. People are so ******** about the death of WFB that they have to pound anything AoS into the dirt to be satisfied. No one is allowed to like it, anyone who does is a shill or a ***** who lacks the necessary gaming acumen to play a real game like WFB, which was an awesome system that totally didn't have huge problems like an extremely uneven point system, shoddy army balance, heavy reliance on comp for any competitive play, and generated it's sales on broken rules and constant power creep.

You can think AoS is a crap system for babies, sure - but you aught realize that this an opinion and not an incontrovertible fact, and that your opinion does not mean that other people are wrong for thinking otherwise.

draccan
23-07-2015, 19:39
See, this is the garbage I was talking about. People just can't stand to see anyone like AoS, or enjoy playing it, or thinking it's a fun game to play that actually has merits. Anyone who says so is pounced upon, and disparaged in various ways, and their intellect and those of the other players they are playing with are called into question. People are so ******** about the death of WFB that they have to pound anything AoS into the dirt to be satisfied. No one is allowed to like it, anyone who does is a shill or a ***** who lacks the necessary gaming acumen to play a real game like WFB, which was an awesome system that totally didn't have huge problems like an extremely uneven point system, shoddy army balance, heavy reliance on comp for any competitive play, and generated it's sales on broken rules and constant power creep.

You can think AoS is a crap system for babies, sure - but you aught realize that this an opinion and not an incontrovertible fact, and that your opinion does not mean that other people are wrong for thinking otherwise.

Maybe if he wasn't overly trolling and exaggerating we would have believed him...

Shandor
23-07-2015, 19:48
I suggest not paying to much attention to Kegslayer. He just might be trolling.

But he is funny. I love to read his posts. :)

But i wondering why he only has 20 friends all buying AoS. Why not 100 and all got 5 boxes? Just to make a point.

Sothron
23-07-2015, 19:49
Must be a special community where 20 people have come together and all invested in AoS.

I believe it is called "Madeup" and is next to "White Knight" on the map.

ShruikhanTK
23-07-2015, 20:10
Well...they watered down everything


1 Chaos Warrior/Marks Halberd = 4.5 TK skeletons. Now they aren't much different. If thinking and building armies from the ground up was overwhelming to you I guess I could see AoS appealing to you. Its one of those games where you just gotta roll the right dice.

It seems most of the AoS players didn't really like 8th edition and haven't been invested in the game at all. Of my old group of about 6-8 people I stay in contact with via a facebook page, I think 1-3 are giving it a go if not for the models at the very least. Of my current group, 4-5 people, NONE are happy with the changes at all. These are all people that actually owned large armies, painted ones, took part in Storm of Magic and the like. total that up and 3/8 people are giving AoS a try? From the initial impressions they werent thrilled with it at all either. So from my group I can say for sure it isn't WHF people that are going to support this game, its not like my group is all best buds and if one goes we all go sorta deal either, we just like large scale fantasy battles.

Doesn't matter if so and so likes it, thinks its fun or whatever, GW obivously liked it enough to throw money at it. The player base is cut off, the tactical depth is non existent, you can forget tournaments with this game so the hardcore gaming element is gone, the happy fun roll dice crowd will move on to other games that do dice rolling better (Armada). There just isn't anything holding a player down once the initial shiny appeal is gone. I give this a year before it goes the way of the Hobbit, it will be slow, quiet but absolute.

Overtninja
23-07-2015, 21:00
The worst thing about AoS for most people is that it's a radically different game from WFB but it uses WFB models. People approaching the game from the perspective of WFB tend to have a great deal of trouble, because it doesn't really play the same, and the tactics are different, and things that would have been absurd like shooting into combat in WFB are completely reasonable in AoS, and so forth. There's a huge resistance, even unintentional, to changing from the familiar way you played with your models to the unfamiliar. It also doesn't help that AoS does not satisfy the same gaming interests that WFB did.

It is disingenuous to declare that AoS lacks tactical depth, however. There's actually a good deal of it - but it's in very different places than it was in WFB, and expresses itself differently, and if you move into it from WFB you'll probably miss it and think the whole thing a tremendous clustercuss.

Tactical movement exists - exiting and entering combat, and securing the avenues to do this, are important, as are preventing those options for your opponent. Setting up counter-charges is equally important. Additionally, the fact that a given player has the potential to act twice in a row exists, which means all movements and combats need to be planned with this in mind, which adds additional tactical considerations. The order of which units attack which things in the combat round matters hugely - and how many units are engaged in combat thus also matters hugely. The hero phase is often vitally important - as is the positioning of said heroes previous to the hero phase, to ensure their abilities can be used effectively where they are needed.

edit - There's also the tactics of army selection, where you attempt to field a units that work well together and mutually improve each other, whilst also trying to counter the choices of your opponent, whilst also trying to not let your opponent qualify for sudden death - and potentially secure it yourself if your army strategy prefers it.

Anyway, it's very true that AoS is not going to satisfy people who want games like WFB - but it's also true that GW was no longer able to support such a game system while also trying to sell models exclusively for it. I suspect that it was simply impossible for GW to create and sustain demand after so many years, once many of their customers had acquired all the models for the armies they needed. The games that fill this void are games first - their model ranges for the most part permit models from any source, which frees them from having to design the game around the selling of models as well.

AoS is actually a pretty decent game, but it's not WFB and that has made everyone salty - even people who intellectually understand that WFB wasn't a sustainable product and hasn't been for a long while.

HelloKitty
23-07-2015, 21:03
Theres actually quite a bit of tactical depth. Its just not the same set of tactics you used in 8th.

A frequent detraction used to mock 8th was that 8th was ranDUMB and lacked tactical depth as well, which most of us also know is false.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Spiney Norman
23-07-2015, 21:41
Theres actually quite a bit of tactical depth. Its just not the same set of tactics you used in 8th.

A frequent detraction used to mock 8th was that 8th was ranDUMB and lacked tactical depth as well, which most of us also know is false.


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Of course, AoS requires tactics like any other game, the only problem with AoS is that the army selection criteria are so inherently abusable it's absurdly easy to break the game in such a way that tactical play becomes irrelevant, by doing something like bringing Nagash for example or bringing your entire army as a single vast unit of chaos Knights etc.

HelloKitty
23-07-2015, 21:50
Out of the box - absolutely!

Tokamak
23-07-2015, 22:58
There's no way to tell if AoS tanks or not as people could still be buying units for 8th. AoS could even increase sales as people panic-buy the kits they still want for 8th before it's all gone.

AoS WILL tank eventually, and it WILL be noticeable. But it will be when it's all too late and people have stopped playing 8th altogether.

EcceNoHomo
23-07-2015, 23:01
8th sucked. No one was buying or starting. GW needed change. AoS is change. You may not like it but others do. Not everyone comes on forums. There are plenty facebook groups that support AoS and it is growing. GW don't care, gw don't care about competitive games for competitive people. GW owe us nothing, we are not entitled to anything. So what you've spent money all of us have and.......... AoS may fail where you are but its doing fine in various other places. Oh the limited ed book hasn't sold out nor did marines or the much vaunted ad mech. The regular book has needed to be re stocked on more than one occasion. AoS ig gw's eyes is a success

Cool story bro.



AoS WILL tank eventually, and it WILL be noticeable. But it will be when it's all too late and people have stopped playing 8th altogether.

Think this is a good point. I bought some bloodletters the other day. But its for 8th, not AOS. I will never buy AOS and I'm not interested in high fantasy.

jet_palero
23-07-2015, 23:12
Not only that, but many are parents and would never have considered buying their kids miniatures until the Light of Sigmar thundered down from the heavens...

But these past two weeks have miraculously changed everyone's mind, and thousands of quid were dropped on sets and sets of the same models. Thus will it be night unto ten generations.

The Finecast Eternals are born. They wish only to spend in Sigmar's name.

You guys should also take a look at Star Wars X-wing. It's a very good game, with painted miniatures and a tight ruleset. Very fun and enjoyable, very scaleable, and easy to teach the younger folks. It also requires much less space to play than AoS or 40k, as their standard table is a 4'x4'. There's fewer miniatures involved in most battles, which is easier for the lil uns to follow, but it still has plenty of tactical depth and list building options.

Tokamak
23-07-2015, 23:24
Think this is a good point. I bought some bloodletters the other day. But its for 8th, not AOS. I will never buy AOS and I'm not interested in high fantasy.

I'm starting a whole new army for End Times and there's no way I'm going to touch AoS either. Though all my purchases will probably seen as AoS sales. At least that's what GW will put in their annual reports.

Snib
23-07-2015, 23:35
I was considering picking up a set of age of Sigmar, but it looks too similar to 40k and a skirmish setting isn't something I would have looked for with Warhammer; I'm not entirely sure what GW are thinking with this bold move as LOTR/Hobbit already have the fantasy skirmish space covered.

Time will tell I guess.

isthatnew?
24-07-2015, 01:23
I don't know if AoS will stand or fall but I do know that it's been a mixed response in GWs own stores in the UK. Locally AoS sold out in GW on release day, but another GW store sold 3 copies then had one returned. The HB fluff book is moving slowly 7-10 copies sold locally, the Sigmarine box is even slower 2 maybe 3 boxes. Now I understand why this is happening as much of the information in the HB is available for free download and there are a glut of army swaps around from starter boxes. The only sales of the Sigmarine box have been for those wanting the weapon options and looking at the rules I'd have to say why? 30 for five guys which allow some re rolls in formations or with Lord choice, err no thanks.
i will be giving AoS a try for a while but I'm not enthused by it apart from the freedom it gives to model different options without worrying about ranking up units. Long term? I'm looking around at other systems and figures more than I have for many years.

itcamefromthedeep
24-07-2015, 02:16
The worst thing about AoS for most people is that it's a radically different game from WFB but it uses WFB models. People approaching the game from the perspective of WFB tend to have a great deal of trouble, because it doesn't really play the same, and the tactics are different, and things that would have been absurd like shooting into combat in WFB are completely reasonable in AoS, and so forth. There's a huge resistance, even unintentional, to changing from the familiar way you played with your models to the unfamiliar. It also doesn't help that AoS does not satisfy the same gaming interests that WFB did.

It is disingenuous to declare that AoS lacks tactical depth, however. There's actually a good deal of it - but it's in very different places than it was in WFB, and expresses itself differently, and if you move into it from WFB you'll probably miss it and think the whole thing a tremendous clustercuss.

Tactical movement exists - exiting and entering combat, and securing the avenues to do this, are important, as are preventing those options for your opponent. Setting up counter-charges is equally important. Additionally, the fact that a given player has the potential to act twice in a row exists, which means all movements and combats need to be planned with this in mind, which adds additional tactical considerations. The order of which units attack which things in the combat round matters hugely - and how many units are engaged in combat thus also matters hugely. The hero phase is often vitally important - as is the positioning of said heroes previous to the hero phase, to ensure their abilities can be used effectively where they are needed.

edit - There's also the tactics of army selection, where you attempt to field a units that work well together and mutually improve each other, whilst also trying to counter the choices of your opponent, whilst also trying to not let your opponent qualify for sudden death - and potentially secure it yourself if your army strategy prefers it.Absolutely.

So what if you outsmarted your opponent? So what if you found that cool combo and made it work? Outside of a comp system, the game isn't a test of anything, and winning or losing tells you very little about yourself or your opponent. If nobody thinks the fight was fair to start with, then there's no sense of accomplishment.

I'll play games of AoS and have fun with them, at least for a while, but the company did very little to assist me in that. I'll remember that dynamic whenever I consider my model purchases.

Captain Idaho
24-07-2015, 10:26
Microsoft did a massive U-turn on their Xbox One debacle so it's not unreasonable for a company to realise the mistake it's made.

However, GW won't do it. They would rather blame the fans for a lack of sales.

Question really is, if a bigger and more competent company buys Warhammer Fantasy rights, or GW in general, what would they do with it?

Denny
24-07-2015, 10:35
Question really is, if a bigger and more competent company buys Warhammer Fantasy rights, or GW in general, what would they do with it?

I can't see why anyone would bother if I'm honest. Its a fairly generic fantasy setting primarily 'inspired' by Tolkien. Even the seemingly more unique stuff is ripped off (Michael Moorcock and Fritz Leiber say hello).
I think WoW has demonstrated that its pretty easy to create your own generic fantasy world and make a ton of cash. I think a competent company would realise this and just create its own derivative IP rather than buying out GW.

Captain Idaho
24-07-2015, 10:39
Although I agree with that, a company would be buying expertise (there are competent staff there), infrastructure and a fan base.

Though every day they keep up this AoS charade will erode so much good will the GW brand may have become toxic.

Still, I reckon people will give Warhammer another chance if a sufficient change came.

Denny
24-07-2015, 10:54
Although I agree with that, a company would be buying expertise (there are competent staff there), infrastructure and a fan base.

The GW production facilities are second to none, although taking on the infrastructure is probably a bit of a mixed bag.
The fan base is certainly a mixed bag. ;)

Captain Idaho
24-07-2015, 10:57
Certainly a lot of toxicity to wade through. Feels just like Xbox One in that infamous E3 moment.

Wesser
24-07-2015, 11:26
A forum search on these very forums from 2010 - 2011 will pull up dozens of threads filled with all kinds of bile about 8th edition. Focused on the killer spells, random charges, and random terrain and how those things broke tournament play and made it "ranDUMB".

Oh, you mean queries about individual rules. There were threads like that become there was something to compare. I was and is a staunch enemy of TLOS for example, but what all these had in common is that comps and houserules could be made to take care of it.

The difference here is that the internet won't rage for very long over this, because basically there's only this argument to discuss "do you like this totally different game that GW made to replace WFB"? TLOS and the other issues people raged over with 8th was something we knew we had to live with for a full edition (and beyond apparently). AoS... once my initial frustration has been vented there's nothing more to rage over if I'm not going to play the game

Turin321
24-07-2015, 11:30
See, this is the garbage I was talking about. People just can't stand to see anyone like AoS, or enjoy playing it, or thinking it's a fun game to play that actually has merits. Anyone who says so is pounced upon, and disparaged in various ways, and their intellect and those of the other players they are playing with are called into question. People are so ******** about the death of WFB that they have to pound anything AoS into the dirt to be satisfied. No one is allowed to like it, anyone who does is a shill or a ***** who lacks the necessary gaming acumen to play a real game like WFB, which was an awesome system that totally didn't have huge problems like an extremely uneven point system, shoddy army balance, heavy reliance on comp for any competitive play, and generated it's sales on broken rules and constant power creep.

You can think AoS is a crap system for babies, sure - but you aught realize that this an opinion and not an incontrovertible fact, and that your opinion does not mean that other people are wrong for thinking otherwise.

And just who pulled your strings, my friend ?

1) I don't like my post being called garbage, that's rude and bad manners, Others don't like it, too I guess.
2) I didn't pounce on anyone, you just pretend I did (wow, there was steam in the tank)
3) I have the same right to voice my opinion as you do - and I'm even more polite.
4) Yes, it is my opinion, I even stated that, see "...my guess is..."
5) If it's successful, fine. It just won't be because of me. I dropped about 60 monthly in this for over 25 years - try to find a better customer. I paid my part and was willing to continue to do so. I think I'll try the new concept of "saving some money".
It's a game, I'm not on life support because of this - there are a lot of games out there - so, yeah, have fun.
The forum is there because of us having fun. Not for fingepointing and swearing.
6) I really wonder how you can get so invested in this game that's just available for some weeks that you start such a post. Really! I'm intrigued. Do you work for GW and know it for a longer time ? Or do you just like to swear ?

Griefbringer
24-07-2015, 17:52
The GW production facilities are second to none, although taking on the infrastructure is probably a bit of a mixed bag.


The production facilities might be excellent, but you can probably relatively easily buy injection moulding and mould making machinery from the market if you have money (I doubt that there is much hardware that was custom-designed for GW).

For more unique physical assets, they have a big pile of valuable steel moulds for producing plastic models, plus copyrights for the said designs.

But maybe this is a topic better continued on the GW general discussion section of the forum?

RandomThoughts
24-07-2015, 21:04
Lots of words that don't say much.

actually, he does


You claim that there's proof (even if a little) that AoS is a failure yet I see no proof. All I see is a group of disgruntled people using the Internet as a megaphone (sad thing that this happens all the time). It is a known fact that those unhappy with something tend to be vocal about it while those who are content don't see the need to be vocal.

He never claimed there is proof. What he said is that in the absence of proof (either way) all we can do is collect all the data we can get and make an informed guess from conjuncture. Looking at forum trands is no proof, but it is better than nothing at all.


I have no proof that AoS is a successful product, I'm just going with my gut.

Stephen Colbert, is that you? This is you, trolling us all with your deadpan performance of truthiness, right? I knew it, I knew it!

HelloKitty
24-07-2015, 23:04
I agree. AoS is an experiment of sorts - GW basically tries to sell us miniatures and other stuff without actually investing money in designing a game. AoS rules were created with least possible effort on their part and without any/much playtesting - that's why there are no points. Without points they can create rules for new minis in 15 minutes and release any crap because their customers are doing their job for them while paying full price for half of the products they used to receive (you get no real game to speak of anymore, just miniatures).

Nothing needs to be well-designed anymore because there's no real structure it must fit into. Buying their products at this moment means supporting this policy.

You mean i get to help work on custom systems without having to play by raw and thats the policy? Count me in i love that.


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vintagetcp
24-07-2015, 23:13
You mean i get to help work on custom systems without having to play by raw and thats the policy? Count me in i love that.


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You can already do that with any game, AoS just throws out framework or the ability to play simple pickup games.

I can't reconcile this attitude with anything other than "drinking the GW Koolaid". Anyone who's played SAGA or Bolt Action or Infinity or MtG or any of a variety of games that try for tight rules and balance can happily tell you that the well-thought-out rules systems make it faaaaaaaaar easier to house rule, customize, build campaign systems, play drunk, play narrative scenarios... basically anything.

HelloKitty
24-07-2015, 23:31
I play or have played all of those. I dont think that they are easier or harder to house rule.


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Teurastaja
25-07-2015, 06:55
You mean i get to help work on custom systems without having to play by raw and thats the policy? Count me in i love that.


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No, you get milked by GW even more than before.

You could always 'work on custom systems', the difference is that now everyone is forced to do that with you because evil overlords decided to sell miniatures without proper game.

Teurastaja
25-07-2015, 07:03
double post

vintagetcp
25-07-2015, 13:55
I play or have played all of those. I dont think that they are easier or harder to house rule.


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I honestly doubt that.

Herzlos
25-07-2015, 20:33
I play or have played all of those. I dont think that they are easier or harder to house rule.

There's no way that AoS will be as easy to house rule as Saga or Bolt Action (I don't know Infinity or MtG but I doubt it too). The only BA house rule I can think of offhand is that a lot of events have a "no vehicle mounted flamethrowers" and a couple of judgement calls on some of the mechanics like multiple pins in a turn. The most common house rule for AoS is "measure from the bases" plus some random attempt at working out a points cost based on wounds.

I'm not sure many people are actually going to be playing AoS as written, or even intended.

vintagetcp
25-07-2015, 20:47
Yeah, basically in all those tight systems it is simple to identify what you want different and correct it. AoS is such a mess that there's multiple interpretations of basic mechanics and you have to come up with a set of calls just to make it playable. I

HelloKitty
26-07-2015, 13:49
Im sorry i dont see how aos is "more difficult" to house rule. We did it in a day.

It was not difficult to identify the areas we wanted changed. It was quite easy and took the hour of our first games to see what we didnt like.

As to playing aos as written, ive never played any game rules as written.


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Da Etruskan
26-07-2015, 16:46
Im sorry i dont see how aos is "more difficult" to house rule. We did it in a day.

It was not difficult to identify the areas we wanted changed. It was quite easy and took the hour of our first games to see what we didnt like.

As to playing aos as written, ive never played any game rules as written.


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How experienced are you? How long ago did you start to play wargames?
How big is the chance that a fresh gamer balances the game in a enjoyable way?

Anyway, I find the whole thing hilarious. GW produces an incomplete (at best) game and we have to adjust and playtest it, meanwhile paying dearly the models. And people are happier than ever.
We probably deserve this kind of treatment from GW :rolleyes:

HelloKitty
26-07-2015, 17:18
I have been playing for over 30 years. When i first started playing i was tweaking rules though.

I dont think people are happier than ever, i think different people have different thresholds of expectation and acceptability.

For some, if the game isnt flawless out of the box they wont touch it. For others, tweaking rules is standard to them so they dont mind. For others if someone in their group has a set of house rules the group likes they will play it happily. For others they wont play anything but RAW.

Others wont spend more than X no matter what the rules are.

The common unifier on forums though is mocking others that dont share a value system.


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Captain Idaho
26-07-2015, 17:19
The problem with house ruling something is when a new release comes out with new rules, you have to fit it into the house rules which may change the balance of the new unit. It's far too much effort to be a long term viable business strategy.

Besides that, it's getting an agreement within the group. As an example, much of our group hates Elven ASF and their rerolls and many would like to house rule it's removal if they had half a chance. Others in the group find without it their expensive, tissue armour models are totally worthless in a scrap.

Mr_Foulscumm
26-07-2015, 17:22
If AoS tanks badly:
My guess would be that GW walks away from gaming completely and makes it a pure limited edition collectible miniatures company, without the pretenses.

ShruikhanTK
26-07-2015, 19:04
AoS is far from being just flawed, the game has zero structure. Yes players could not be dicks but that was always the case and besides the point why WHF was failing isn't it? I still don't see the tactical depth, say the armies are balanced. It just devolves into dice throwing, 360 LoS....I mean the game is so watered down the simplicity is appealing in a sense, but I had 8th memorized, an inch made all the difference sometimes in a game and with this I'm just sliding models around murdering them with dice, I feel no different using a block of saurus vs a block of skeletons. The tactical depth I guess is you can react to your opponents actions...but like I said it just devolves into dice rolling and numbers. There was a huge difference between 10 goblins and 5 saurus, now not nearly as much and that is truly tragic because its really prof that a rich and diverse fantasy realm is becoming craps lol

HelloKitty
26-07-2015, 19:10
People said the same thing about 8th edition fantasy. That it is nothing more than throwing dice at each other.

draccan
26-07-2015, 19:13
People said the same thing about 8th edition fantasy. That it is nothing more than throwing dice at each other.

Christ are you still spewing that nonsense. We already had that discussion. 8th. ed. and AoS reception wasn't the same. I quoted poll from 8th. ed. yet you keep making unsubstantiated claims.


AoS is far from being just flawed, the game has zero structure. Yes players could not be dicks but that was always the case and besides the point why WHF was failing isn't it? I still don't see the tactical depth, say the armies are balanced. It just devolves into dice throwing, 360 LoS....I mean the game is so watered down the simplicity is appealing in a sense, but I had 8th memorized, an inch made all the difference sometimes in a game and with this I'm just sliding models around murdering them with dice, I feel no different using a block of saurus vs a block of skeletons. The tactical depth I guess is you can react to your opponents actions...but like I said it just devolves into dice rolling and numbers. There was a huge difference between 10 goblins and 5 saurus, now not nearly as much and that is truly tragic because its really prof that a rich and diverse fantasy realm is becoming craps lol

I couldn't agree more. Perfectly said!

Kyriakin
26-07-2015, 19:17
People said the same thing about 8th edition fantasy. That it is nothing more than throwing dice at each other.
AoS is Yahtzee, and you don't even get a couple of free pencils.

Mr_Foulscumm
26-07-2015, 19:19
I couldn't agree more. Perfectly said!

He could have said it better by sticking to the topic surely? The fact that people think the game stinks doesn't say anything at all about what they think will happen if the game tanks. :)

Mr_Foulscumm
26-07-2015, 19:22
AoS is Yahtzee, and you don't even get a couple of free pencils.

No, but does Yahtzee offer you a 20 dice cup or a 25 a measuring stick shaped like the head of a hammer with a neat neck strap? :D

vintagetcp
26-07-2015, 19:33
8th did indeed involve an uncomfortable amount of dice-throwing, and GW, instead of working on it, tripled-down on the dice-throwing. Yahtzee with expensive miniatures, indeed.

Da Etruskan
26-07-2015, 19:56
I have been playing for over 30 years. When i first started playing i was tweaking rules though.

I dont think people are happier than ever, i think different people have different thresholds of expectation and acceptability.

For some, if the game isnt flawless out of the box they wont touch it. For others, tweaking rules is standard to them so they dont mind. For others if someone in their group has a set of house rules the group likes they will play it happily. For others they wont play anything but RAW.

Others wont spend more than X no matter what the rules are.

The common unifier on forums though is mocking others that dont share a value system.


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I was thinking about the community in general. Me included - I have a lot of criticism about the direction 40k is taking, but I am building an Eldar army :D

You overlooked it, but my most important question was: how easy is it for a newbie to houserule successfully?

My "gateway drug" for Warhammer was heroquest: the booklet had the chance to add custom quests, but the custom quest was at the end of the list (or middle?) as to say "use your imagination, but first have a look at how is supposed to work"...

HelloKitty
26-07-2015, 20:06
Christ are you still spewing that nonsense. We already had that discussion. 8th. ed. and AoS reception wasn't the same. I quoted poll from 8th. ed. yet you keep making unsubstantiated claims.

Here you go Mr. Troll. Here's the nonsense. Here are the unsubstantiated claims. I got tagged in many internet flame fests with this accusation - that 8th was nothing but yahtzee throwing dice at each other and other ranDUMB. There are the first two google responses that come up. There are a host more. For you to come on here and try to troll and say that it never happened after five or so years of having these regular arguments with people... well... consider yourself on the block list.

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?265051-8th-Edition-Warhammer-for-smart-people


Saying that you need more skill with 8th is wrong, you need other skills as the game is very different from 7th.

IMHO you need less because with so much random things you cant calculate the outcome of any decision well.

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?264785-8th-edition-Warhammer-for-stupid-people

Im sorry but after a few games of 8th my initial impression is that this edition is simply too easy. Its a dumbed down version of warhammer meant to appeal to upper middle class 12 year olds and their mommy's disposable income.

Sounds familiar right? I think I read that same quote probably 19 times over the past week only it was "AoS" instead of "8th".

Here's a neat find in response to this one from a couple posts above;

AoS is Yahtzee, and you don't even get a couple of free pencils.

http://www.warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=89939&start=210

Flanking and tactical moves are dead and pre-measuring has taken whatever skill you needed away. 8th ed warhammer is like playing Yahtzee with models.

Same quotes, different edition, different posters.

I suppose next counter argument is "well but that wasn't common" to which I avoid you in the first place because circular arguments are pointless and there is no way to quantify "wasn't common". Though you being a smart guy you should know the logical fallacy of argumentum ad populum.

Smithpod68
26-07-2015, 20:11
Props to HelloKitty! Proof that 8th was just as disliked as AoS when it first came out. The fact that similar arguments to point out the failures of both systems is priceless!

HelloKitty
26-07-2015, 20:12
I was thinking about the community in general. Me included - I have a lot of criticism about the direction 40k is taking, but I am building an Eldar army :D

You overlooked it, but my most important question was: how easy is it for a newbie to houserule successfully?

My "gateway drug" for Warhammer was heroquest: the booklet had the chance to add custom quests, but the custom quest was at the end of the list (or middle?) as to say "use your imagination, but first have a look at how is supposed to work"...

How easy is it for a newbie to houserule? That depends on the newbie. Really I feel it has nothing to do with someone being new or not and everything to do with a person capable of seeing patterns and being somewhat decent at math. I'm not saying AoS is the most awesome game EVAH. Far from it. But I'm saying for someone like me that is in a group of tinkerers, that this is preferred over a game where the community says you have to play RAW or nothing else (like for example 40k 5th edition or WHFB 7th edition were)

draccan
26-07-2015, 20:13
LOL you linked to the thread where 79% of the players called 8th. ed. the best edition yet hahaha
(the same poll I already presented to you)

HelloKitty
26-07-2015, 20:16
LOL you linked to the thread where 79% of the players called 8th. ed. the best edition yet hahaha
(the same poll I already presented to you)

I like how you deviate from the original claim and accusation in the first place which had nothing to do with your poll or any poll or any appeal to the masses and was that people said that 8th was nothing but throwing dice at each other (which was what I was responding to).

Way to move the goal posts slick.

Here let me help you

Original Quote

It just devolves into dice throwing

My quote

People said the same thing about 8th edition fantasy. That it is nothing more than throwing dice at each other.

Your quote, paraphrased for berevity

lolololtrolololol nonsense and rubbish i already posted polls that showed people loved 8th

My return quote - displaying links to people saying that the game is throwing dice and yahtzee and other assorted bashings.

One of these things has nothing to do with the others.

draccan
26-07-2015, 20:30
You keep implying 8th. ed. reaction was the same. Look at post 71-82 posts in this thread.
You make unfounded claims and then shy away when I present evidence that you are wrong.

Just because there was some who didn't appreciate 8th. ed. and some who quit (you can never please everyone), it doesn't mean the total reaction was the same. It wasn't - not by a longshot. Now all the major polls are saying 70+% negative. Back then it was the opposite.

So get back on track on the topic of the thread and stop derailing with comparisons that doesn't hold up.

HelloKitty
26-07-2015, 20:31
Ah we're back to trying to prove five years ago that the majority did or did not like the game based on your poll you linked.

Sorry - it doesn't work that way. You don't get to gaslight the conversation and try to change all of the past conversations I had over the past five years to suit your own version and try to make that the global version.

Hell - doing a google search on "warhammer 8th sucks" gets you plenty of the things that I am talking about.

draccan
26-07-2015, 20:34
Okay. Just go on making unfounded statements about 8th. ed. and making comparisons that most people here doesn't agree with because in actuality it didn't happen.

I don't think I care to bother with you any more...

HelloKitty
26-07-2015, 20:38
and making comparisons that most people here doesn't agree with

It must be a heavy weight you bear on those shoulders of yours, speaking for most people that post here.

Here, check this out it may help:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum

Here is gas lighting, something else you are attempting:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaslighting

Both are very popular on internet forums and used quite often.

As to your "unfounded" claim - I've posted links to show that there was a wash of negativity on 8th and it still exists to this day. I don't know how showing that is any less than the poll you linked. I've even given google search words to use.

Shandor
26-07-2015, 21:44
I have to agree here with draccan. There was alot ********* at the 8th edition. thats true. But it wasnt the same as this. At the start of the 8th edition you had alot peoples play it it in stores and hobby clubs. the polls from that time did favor the 8th edtion when it comes to "Will you continue playing?"

And yeah you get alot results on google for 8th edition sucks... same for almost everything.. even mickey mouse sucks..450000 hits :)

itcamefromthedeep
26-07-2015, 21:54
You can find climatologists who deny climate change. Proportions matter. You can find at least some people who will hold any opinion, but some opinions are more representative than others.

---

Now, saying that AoS is tactical as yatzee is, of course, an exaggeration at best.

LoTR games often involved a scrum somewhere on the table and it also included an uncertain turn sequence, but by no means did that prevent it from being tactical. AoS lacks many of the mechanics that I thought were important to making LoTR work, so I don't think the two are equally tactical by any stretch, but some qualities seen as disqualifying are not.

People did indeed say much the same things about 8e. I think the community has voted with their wallets since then, leaving Fantasy in a place where it has been abandoned. GW seems to have taken the things that got 8e accused of being yatzee and expanded on them, at the expense of things that a clear majority of the community liked about 8e.

I still wish AoS the best, as I'd like to keep using my Fantasy minis in some capacity and that becomes more difficult if AoS tanks.

HelloKitty
26-07-2015, 22:24
I have to agree here with draccan. There was alot ********* at the 8th edition. thats true. But it wasnt the same as this. At the start of the 8th edition you had alot peoples play it it in stores and hobby clubs. the polls from that time did favor the 8th edtion when it comes to "Will you continue playing?"

And yeah you get alot results on google for 8th edition sucks... same for almost everything.. even mickey mouse sucks..450000 hits :)

In no way shape or form did my quote that started this **** storm imply that somehow this was the same or equivalent or try to weigh that both were the same. Someone posted that AoS is nothing but throwing dice at each other. I replied that this same thing was said about 8th. I then showed links showing statements that were said five years ago that are the functional equivalent of what is being said today. Full stop and period.

There is zero way to quantify or measure or score Age of Sigmar's reaction compared to 8th edition's reaction without going out and finding every poll ever done a month after 8th's release and comparing it with every poll for AoS.

That does not in any way shape or form negate me saying that people said 8th is nothing more than throwing dice at each other.

Da Etruskan
26-07-2015, 22:25
You can find climatologists who deny climate change. Proportions matter. You can find at least some people who will hold any opinion, but some opinions are more representative than others.

---

Now, saying that AoS is tactical as yatzee is, of course, an exaggeration at best.

LoTR games often involved a scrum somewhere on the table and it also included an uncertain turn sequence, but by no means did that prevent it from being tactical. AoS lacks many of the mechanics that I thought were important to making LoTR work, so I don't think the two are equally tactical by any stretch, but some qualities seen as disqualifying are not.

People did indeed say much the same things about 8e. I think the community has voted with their wallets since then, leaving Fantasy in a place where it has been abandoned. GW seems to have taken the things that got 8e accused of being yatzee and expanded on them, at the expense of things that a clear majority of the community liked about 8e.

I still wish AoS the best, as I'd like to keep using my Fantasy minis in some capacity and that becomes more difficult if AoS tanks.

So... WH 8th was less tactical, and people left.* As an answer, GW creates a game even less tactical...
And they expect to increase the sales compared to 8th edition.

* is when I left, actually. More for real life issues (I do research so I am always in another country) but the few time I have I dedicate it to 40k, and I just have less expectations from 40k...

Edit, to elaborate HelloKitty: 8th and AoS are part of a trend in GW game design, and people reacted to them in the same way: rejecting the "dumbing down" of the system. and quitting. For sure, in case of 8th, and possibly in case of AoS.

But maybe AoS attracts completely new customers. Maybe.

HelloKitty
26-07-2015, 22:27
I will also say and have said and gave detailed analysis on why 8th was *not* less tactical than 7th. I also feel AoS is *not* less tactical than 8th, its just that the tactics are different (and for many not what they want), which is fair enough.

draccan
26-07-2015, 22:33
In no way shape or form did my quote that started this **** storm imply that somehow this was the same or equivalent or try to weigh that both were the same. Someone posted that AoS is nothing but throwing dice at each other. I replied that this same thing was said about 8th. I then showed links showing statements that were said five years ago that are the functional equivalent of what is being said today. Full stop and period.

There is zero way to quantify or measure or score Age of Sigmar's reaction compared to 8th edition's reaction without going out and finding every poll ever done a month after 8th's release and comparing it with every poll for AoS.

That does not in any way shape or form negate me saying that people said 8th is nothing more than throwing dice at each other.

Just one of your many comments:


The change to 8th edition from 7th was pretty much the exact same response. My community was affected almost identically, and the rage storm on internet forums lasted months.

or


I read what you wrote. There is no way for you to quantify your argument, nor is there a way for me to quantify mine. All we can do is poke each other in the chest with our fingers and go "no, I'm right you're wrong", and have a nerd slap-fight, which is pointless.

The result from 8th was not that different. All of the polls and comments on all of the major gaming forums when 8th dropped were overwhelmingly negative, particularly amongst the tournament crowd.

I then found polls that said the exact opposite from Warseer and another gaming forum. Yet you still fail to produce one single poll.

Da Etruskan
26-07-2015, 22:39
I also feel AoS is *not* less tactical than 8th.

We have to agree to disagree then. Regardless, is what many potential customers feel.

And in the case of AoS, it looks like GW did everything to make the game feel less tactical. Maybe to make it feel less intimidating to newbies, but still..

HelloKitty
26-07-2015, 22:49
Just one of your many comments:
or
I then found polls that said the exact opposite from Warseer and another gaming forum. Yet you still fail to produce one single poll.

Please stop trolling. You are pulling quotes out of context that have nothing to do with what you are trying to jump my **** for right now. That conversation that you are quoting from now has zero to do with what we were discussing today and was ended several days ago.

I don't have to produce a poll. A poll is not going to prove either side correct. You cannot prove you are correct without having all of the polls globally at your disposal, which neither of us has. If I go out and produce a poll, you will just go out and try to find another one just to be "right". Then it becomes a circular argument. Erego it is pointless to argue something that cannot be "proven". A warseer poll that you produce does not count as golden evidence that you speak for the global fan base.

Your stubborn insistence to stick with the appeal to the masses logical fallacy to win an argument is tiresome as is your interjection of a conversation that ended days ago that has zero to do with what I was talking about to try to continue the argument today is. Please drop it now.

draccan
26-07-2015, 22:54
I see a lot on Warseer, but it's been a while since I saw something as incoherent and contradictory as your posts.

Mawduce
27-07-2015, 04:03
Is this lockable yet because it's just these two shouting at each other.

In terms of block formations and cavalry/chariot charges yes AoS is less tactical. But when one can make their own formations on the battle field the game does come up with some tactics. 2andy6 made a good video about it. His analysis is good with low numbered units in small games, but larger games tend to bog down again until proven otherwise. HOWEVER, in terms of smaller games with unit on unit(not unit on many units) the tactics shine through to be greater. I cannot ignore that fact.

If AoS tanks I'm not sure GW will admit it. But if they do it's going to be a change in direction for the company as a whole. The Sigmarine in front of the HQ is proof enough. If it fails it could be better for the community and the company as a whole long term. They would be forced to change business practices that many of the community have been begging for years to have. I mean jesus, look what the guys at mantic did for FREE in their spare time.

http://www.ohiohammer.com/blog/?cat=1%2C2%2C3%2C177&paged=2

Scroll to MR 31 Rules Committee. Great interview with the guys that have been putting KoW together. If AoS tanks can you imagine GW doing this... I can't but can you imagine!

Codsticker
27-07-2015, 05:20
Is this lockable yet because it's just these two shouting at each other.

Yes, yes it is.

Thread Closed.

Codsticker

The Warseer Mod Squad

Codsticker
27-07-2015, 05:20
Is this lockable yet because it's just these two shouting at each other.

Yes, yes it is.

Thread Closed.

Codsticker

The Warseer Mod Squad