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bound for glory
20-07-2015, 20:15
just wondering what others think.

how many more books will we see in the HH series? full new books, short story collections, heck, stuff that really has zip to do with the series, but still labeled as part of.
and lets not forget the seige. that has to have about 4 books, right? how many can the series possible have left in it?

Poncho160
20-07-2015, 20:52
4 books for the siege! Haha. GW will milk that part of the story for all it's worth, I wouldn't be surprised to see 10+ books covering the invasion of earth. Plus all the short stories and audio books ect.

Plus it's not just the battle for earth itself. What about the approach through the solar system, all the space battles, the dissaspearing of Titan, the battle for Mars and the moon etc, etc.

When Horus finally gets to earth there will be books covering what each Legion was doing and who they were fighting (loyal and tratitor), plus what everyone else was doing, ie the Emperor and all his cronies including the Custodians. There will be probably be books detailing what the Emp was actually doing with the Golden Throne and all the other mythic stuff that has only ever been hinted at.

Then the actual battle between the Emp and Horus and the fall out of that. Plus then what happens next.

I can easily see another five to ten years of HH books. The way I see it, without the HH books you might as well close the Black Libabry portion of GW. They won't be letting go of the HH series for a long long time.

bound for glory
20-07-2015, 22:13
i was thinking 20 more books, easy.

El Torro
20-07-2015, 22:39
Someone once told me there would be 30 books total in the Horus Heresy series. I thought that number was ridiculously high. I guess I was wrong.

Poncho160
20-07-2015, 22:42
i was thinking 20 more books, easy.

I did actually mean to type 20+ books, haha

The Black Shield
20-07-2015, 23:05
I was originally told 100 novels for the Horus Heresy by someone from BL years ago.

Tymell
21-07-2015, 01:05
One point to bear in mind is that, contrary to the continual assertions of "The story isn't moving forward!", the timeline is progressing. If we add up timespan references within the series, we're firmly into 30,010 by now. Isstvan V was 31,005, and the Siege of Terra is, according to Forge World's timeline, in 31,014.

Now, don't read too much into that, because it's not like there's a set number of novels or releases per in-universe year or anything like that. I'm just saying that despite common complaints about it, the timeline does progress. There's some back and forth, some jumping around, but as a whole it is moving along. It might slow down or speed up at points too of course.

Personally, considering that BL have allocated Deathfire as #32 in the series, I wouldn't be surprised to see it go to 50 before we actually get to Terra, and it could be significantly more than that.

Nazguire
21-07-2015, 04:06
One point to bear in mind is that, contrary to the continual assertions of "The story isn't moving forward!", the timeline is progressing. If we add up timespan references within the series, we're firmly into 30,010 by now. Isstvan V was 31,005, and the Siege of Terra is, according to Forge World's timeline, in 31,014.

Now, don't read too much into that, because it's not like there's a set number of novels or releases per in-universe year or anything like that. I'm just saying that despite common complaints about it, the timeline does progress. There's some back and forth, some jumping around, but as a whole it is moving along. It might slow down or speed up at points too of course.

Personally, considering that BL have allocated Deathfire as #32 in the series, I wouldn't be surprised to see it go to 50 before we actually get to Terra, and it could be significantly more than that.

At the rate that we're progressing at, we won't see the end before the series hits the 20 year mark. The release rate for substantial novels that progress the timeline is so slow at current.

MajorWesJanson
21-07-2015, 12:37
The release rate for substantial novels...is so slow at current.

Close to non existent recently, actually. It's all about the LE-shorts and novellas that they can charge $50 for instead of full length books that are $30 in hardback.

7788
21-07-2015, 15:03
One point to bear in mind is that, contrary to the continual assertions of "The story isn't moving forward!", the timeline is progressing. If we add up timespan references within the series, we're firmly into 30,010 by now. Isstvan V was 31,005, and the Siege of Terra is, according to Forge World's timeline, in 31,014.

Now, don't read too much into that, because it's not like there's a set number of novels or releases per in-universe year or anything like that. I'm just saying that despite common complaints about it, the timeline does progress. There's some back and forth, some jumping around, but as a whole it is moving along. It might slow down or speed up at points too of course.

Personally, considering that BL have allocated Deathfire as #32 in the series, I wouldn't be surprised to see it go to 50 before we actually get to Terra, and it could be significantly more than that.

No "story" that needs 32 novels and more audiodramas, novellas etc. to reach a mid?point is progressing in any meaningful way. That's not being offered a story, that's being played with. Also, moving a story forward is not just a matter of setting parts of it further down the story's timeline. Flash-forwards, just like flash-backs, should be coherently, organically woven into the telling.

As to how many more? Figure in all the specials, novellas & audiodramas that are not yet in a numbered novel. Then figure all the future such releases. Then actual new novels. I would say the final HH novel will probably be closer to Book 70 than Book 50.

ReconTrojan
21-07-2015, 20:59
I would say 125 books, 100 novellas & audio dramas for the entire series. While I think it's a fair point they want to milk it for all it is worth I think they have other rich storylines they can pursue including the Unification Wars and the Scouring. Someone raised the point of the Golden Throne and the Emperor get a book, imagine if we get detail that would explain the possible rebirth of him in 40k. I often wonder if that is what they are trying to avoid...give us detail but not certain details. I'm not a gamer so I want it all, I want Russ & Corax to return in 40k along with the All-Father as take the fight to the Black Legion in the Eye once and for all. But having the Emperors perspective as he is getting hooked up to the golden throne will be awesome...in 2022.

TheGreatestGood
21-07-2015, 22:24
I did think I heard 50 mentioned some time ago. Alas 18 more books does seem too few for the way things are moving on (slowly).
I do hope we see the end though, it's a series that deserves a finale and not a slow lingering lifeless crawl to insignificance.

DarkChaplain
22-07-2015, 04:45
I did think I heard 50 mentioned some time ago. Alas 18 more books does seem too few for the way things are moving on (slowly).
I do hope we see the end though, it's a series that deserves a finale and not a slow lingering lifeless crawl to insignificance.

I heard around 50 being mentioned on various occassions, too. 100? After they have covered the big main battles and various Legions are preparing for Terra? Surely you jest.

There's one more Vulkan novel coming from Kyme, we know that.
Angels of Caliban is supposed to escalate the Dark Angels' fight at home, the first group before the Lion returns home after Terra.
The White Scars are still getting some action, Wraight is writing the sequel next, according to his interview with BL. There's also the Wolves vs Alpha Legion at Alaxxes.
The Blood Angels are going to get fed up with Imperial Secundus soon, the tensions between Sanguinius and the others are obvious already. It is likely going to fall apart with Abnett's Dreadwing.
Nightfall and Master of Mankind cover the Night Lords post-Thramas and the Webway War.
The Crimson King is going to see Magnus aligning with the traitor Legions.

Next to that, what the hell would they even have to stretch it for DOUBLE the number of books they currently have out? Believing they'd go for 100 with the current pace is nuts, and shows lack of perspective. The plot isn't moving forward? It is. Just not the direction you desperately want to see (Terra), even though a lot of the pieces are moving towards it on their own paths.

Consider that we have 20 novels left, with all those books in the works/planned. With all them out, there'd still be around 10 books left to wrap up the rest and get to Terra. If anything, we're looking at a row of novels that are moving various Legions into position for the finale.

Nazguire
22-07-2015, 05:19
No "story" that needs 32 novels and more audiodramas, novellas etc. to reach a mid?point is progressing in any meaningful way. That's not being offered a story, that's being played with. Also, moving a story forward is not just a matter of setting parts of it further down the story's timeline. Flash-forwards, just like flash-backs, should be coherently, organically woven into the telling.

As to how many more? Figure in all the specials, novellas & audiodramas that are not yet in a numbered novel. Then figure all the future such releases. Then actual new novels. I would say the final HH novel will probably be closer to Book 70 than Book 50.

I agree - there is no doubt the series is being milked for all its worth.

I'm ok with that providing the stories are entertaining... which, as it stands, are very hit and miss at the moment.

Tymell
22-07-2015, 09:10
No "story" that needs 32 novels and more audiodramas, novellas etc. to reach a mid?point is progressing in any meaningful way. That's not being offered a story, that's being played with. Also, moving a story forward is not just a matter of setting parts of it further down the story's timeline. Flash-forwards, just like flash-backs, should be coherently, organically woven into the telling.

Whether you feel it's progressing meaningfully or not is up to you, and everyone individually. And as I say, years passed does not necessarily tell you how far through it is in terms of number of novels. It may speed up or it may slow down. My point is just that there are many who continue to insist that the story isn't progressing at all, when it very clearly is, with not just years having passed, but many events having been covered.

Giledan
22-07-2015, 09:39
...
Nightfall and Master of Mankind cover the Night Lords post-Thramas and the Webway War.
Is Master of Mankind being worked on? (that is ADB's book about the Emperor right?) Thought that was put on hold (indefinitely?) for Talon of Horus and the Black Legion series, but maybe I'm mistaken...

DarkChaplain
22-07-2015, 16:52
Neither is being worked on last I heard. Still, both are on the table and planned for the future, so I'd say we can consider them as part of the lineup we know about.

I generally agree with Tymell. Whether you consider certain events important enough to be covered, or dislike audios or short stories, all the Legions involved are being moved into position right now.
Are there "redundant" stories among them (mostly among the short stories)? Sure, no doubt about that. But then again, those can go a long way to introduce elements that pop up again later. There are a bunch of small pieces that end up flowing into bigger stories, giving characters and events more depth.

bound for glory
22-07-2015, 19:17
i guess i don't really care if the series goes another 20 books. mean to say, i don't buy the audios, won't buy the limited($$)stuff untill it comes out in cheep form, and outright refuse to buy the micro shorts. but i like the series. i mostly read military history(the world wars. acw. etc.) and the HH is a good escape from that.
just no more prospearo burns, BFTA or the damnation of whatever the planet was called...who am i kidding? i'll read them all.

ReconTrojan
22-07-2015, 20:18
I heard around 50 being mentioned on various occassions, too. 100? After they have covered the big main battles and various Legions are preparing for Terra? Surely you jest.

There's one more Vulkan novel coming from Kyme, we know that.
Angels of Caliban is supposed to escalate the Dark Angels' fight at home, the first group before the Lion returns home after Terra.
The White Scars are still getting some action, Wraight is writing the sequel next, according to his interview with BL. There's also the Wolves vs Alpha Legion at Alaxxes.
The Blood Angels are going to get fed up with Imperial Secundus soon, the tensions between Sanguinius and the others are obvious already. It is likely going to fall apart with Abnett's Dreadwing.
Nightfall and Master of Mankind cover the Night Lords post-Thramas and the Webway War.
The Crimson King is going to see Magnus aligning with the traitor Legions.

Next to that, what the hell would they even have to stretch it for DOUBLE the number of books they currently have out? Believing they'd go for 100 with the current pace is nuts, and shows lack of perspective. The plot isn't moving forward? It is. Just not the direction you desperately want to see (Terra), even though a lot of the pieces are moving towards it on their own paths.

Consider that we have 20 novels left, with all those books in the works/planned. With all them out, there'd still be around 10 books left to wrap up the rest and get to Terra. If anything, we're looking at a row of novels that are moving various Legions into position for the finale.

I think I have plenty of perspective. 100 plus. No one thought it would take 15 books plus to get off Istvaan III either. This is a cash cow for BL and no way do we not get a 15 book arc on the battle of Terra from every legion participating. I expect a single book to cover just the battle between Horus and the Emperor. Also keep in mind the HH does not end at Terra but will cover 18 legions retreating and scouring.

DarkChaplain
23-07-2015, 02:47
100 PLUS?! Are we reading the same series? Mind explaining how they're supposed to fill another 60 unaccounted for novels when we're already on the last stages, with only a couple of years in-universe to go til Terra?

15 books to get off Isstvan III? That whole thing was covered in Galaxy in Flames, with a small portion in Fulgrim, and minor references to it in various books, as something that happened.
15 books for the Siege of Terra? How are they even going to get it into a 15 book narrative? No, it ain't happening. Anthologies, sure, I can see one of those for the side events, various duels and what not. But the main Siege of Terra will never take as long as half the series so far. Believing that it will is pure tinfoil hattery.

If anything, I see BL rushing through it, probably by having Abnett write the end, and seeing The Unremembered Empire, where plenty of plotlines converged, I have no faith in him pulling that off well enough to not be disappointing.
And no, a FULL 400 page novel to cover Horus versus the Emperor? I doubt it. Heck, even a full book covering the Emperor's boarding action, with him, Sanguinius and Dorn (and probably Ollanius) aboard the Vengeful Spirit, is unlikely as hell. There'd either need to be massive additions to the plot, which would heavily subtract from the main event: the final duel between Horus and his father; or a metric crapton of padding that'd diminish the whole thing even further.

And I'm pretty sure that they have repeatedly said that the scouring won't be part of the Horus Heresy series. If they do it, it'll be its own thing - and a lot of post-Heresy events have already been covered here and there, from Battle of the Fang / The Hunt for Magnus over Dark Angels via Gav Thorpe to Night Lords and The Talon of Horus, Skalathrax...
Many of the important post-Heresy events have already been touched on. The Talon of Horus specifically says a bunch of things about it all.

It won't be part of the Horus Heresy series. Horus will already be dead by that point, rendering the label moot.

ReconTrojan
23-07-2015, 03:41
LOL " we're at the last stages" really? we are still collecting rag-tag teams of Iron Hands and Raven Guard after Istvaan 5. The only reason BL would rush this is if they think it is losing readers, otherwise why would they want to? I am not privy to their individual sales numbers so who knows but I certainly didn't believe the afterward in this last book that we are close to the end. It certainly doesn't feel that way in the last few releases of full novels.

As far as Battle of the Fang and it's prequel which were both very good those were novels that spent a few paragraphs explaining the scouring from their perspective but by no means are they to represent what happens to the Legions after Terra. Since it involves players that were fighting at the walls of Terra I would expect that they will be relevant to the HH reader and still fall under their umbrella. The HH label casts a long sales shadow and would expect it to be around for awhile.

Time will tell who is right but BL has proven time and time again the power of the dollar or pound is the driver of this series.

Tymell
23-07-2015, 09:53
No one thought it would take 15 books plus to get off Istvaan III either.

Er....it didn't :S I really don't understand where you're getting that number from.

Isstvan III was covered in Galaxy in Flames, with Flight of the Eisenstein following on from that and Fulgrim having a bit tying into it.

If you mean the chronology of the series jumps around, sure, but that's been the case since the beginning. Events that have been seen in one story might later be seen or followed up on in another story, but that doesn't mean it "took 15 books plus to get off Isstvan III". Isstvan III was done in the 3rd book in the series. The 4th book went beyond that.

7788
23-07-2015, 14:17
Whether you feel it's progressing meaningfully or not is up to you, and everyone individually. And as I say, years passed does not necessarily tell you how far through it is in terms of number of novels. It may speed up or it may slow down. My point is just that there are many who continue to insist that the story isn't progressing at all, when it very clearly is, with not just years having passed, but many events having been covered.

Feel free to list the many other works of fiction (even tie-in fiction) where past wars lasting less than a decade needed 32 novel-size works and additional audiodramas, novellas, and short stories, just to (arguably) get the actors "in position" for the (known) conclusion. So that we can establish some generally accepted criteria of "progress".

ReconTrojan
23-07-2015, 16:21
Er....it didn't :S I really don't understand where you're getting that number from.

Isstvan III was covered in Galaxy in Flames, with Flight of the Eisenstein following on from that and Fulgrim having a bit tying into it.

If you mean the chronology of the series jumps around, sure, but that's been the case since the beginning. Events that have been seen in one story might later be seen or followed up on in another story, but that doesn't mean it "took 15 books plus to get off Isstvan III". Isstvan III was done in the 3rd book in the series. The 4th book went beyond that.

Of course you're right but I embellished to make a point. The most recent book Deathfire still talks about the sands of Istvaan so for me it seems the books have never left it.

carlospictor
23-07-2015, 17:59
A couple of weeks back, I donated all of my HH paperbacks to the Oxfam Charity Bookshop. I'd been collecting them since day 1, only buying the small paperbacks as they originally started out as.

Just looked at the entire shelf they were taking up, realised that I was getting increasingly confused about the storylines after 30+ books (up to Damnation of Pythos) and also realised that so many books had killed my enthusiasm to see how the rest of the story went.

I have no regrets, it's now a weight off my mind that I don't have to keep up and try to find the next one in small paperback. Plus, I get a whole empty shelf to display more models!

Tymell
23-07-2015, 18:33
Feel free to list the many other works of fiction (even tie-in fiction) where past wars lasting less than a decade needed 32 novel-size works and additional audiodramas, novellas, and short stories, just to (arguably) get the actors "in position" for the (known) conclusion. So that we can establish some generally accepted criteria of "progress".

I don't really see much point, considering you've clearly already made your own mind up about it, and are already descending into a sarcastic tone.

Besides which, it's not my point. As I've already stated twice, my point is that the series is progressing, despite what some insist. If you want to say it isn't progressing fast enough or in the right way, go for it. I'd probably agree with you on at least some, if not many, points.

7788
23-07-2015, 19:31
Being sarcastic was not my intention. I was just dumbfounded that the length of this telling could be perceived as progress, leaving aside the inevitable reduction of quality caused by the lengthening narrative. And indeed I have made up my mind, to me the facts are clear: this has gone on too long.

ReconTrojan
24-07-2015, 02:19
Being sarcastic was not my intention. I was just dumbfounded that the length of this telling could be perceived as progress, leaving aside the inevitable reduction of quality caused by the lengthening narrative. And indeed I have made up my mind, to me the facts are clear: this has gone on too long.

I didn't read your comments as sarcastic but I have the thick skin of a former marine that only communicated through barbs and insults.

There are some HH books I wish never ended and others I had to force myself to finish. I want certain books and others that are being discussed will just be read for the possible chance it answers a question. I have re-read some of the books and as an example I am often left wondering why tactical nukes were not used by non-compliant worlds to strike at the Space Marines while on the ground. I just read a short story where a small nuke was used on the Ultramarines to great effect. If we were to take earth 2015 and change the name and we were invaded (not an orbital strike) I assure you we would have used every one of the 50k nukes that reside on this planet and in a lot of unique settings/applications. I know these writers are not military experts but at times the enemy outside of the sheer numbers of the Orks etc let alone humans are rather stupid.

bound for glory
24-07-2015, 03:01
100 PLUS?! Are we reading the same series? Mind explaining how they're supposed to fill another 60 unaccounted for novels when we're already on the last stages, with only a couple of years in-universe to go til Terra?

15 books to get off Isstvan III? That whole thing was covered in Galaxy in Flames, with a small portion in Fulgrim, and minor references to it in various books, as something that happened.
15 books for the Siege of Terra? How are they even going to get it into a 15 book narrative? No, it ain't happening. Anthologies, sure, I can see one of those for the side events, various duels and what not. But the main Siege of Terra will never take as long as half the series so far. Believing that it will is pure tinfoil hattery.

If anything, I see BL rushing through it, probably by having Abnett write the end, and seeing The Unremembered Empire, where plenty of plotlines converged, I have no faith in him pulling that off well enough to not be disappointing.
And no, a FULL 400 page novel to cover Horus versus the Emperor? I doubt it. Heck, even a full book covering the Emperor's boarding action, with him, Sanguinius and Dorn (and probably Ollanius) aboard the Vengeful Spirit, is unlikely as hell. There'd either need to be massive additions to the plot, which would heavily subtract from the main event: the final duel between Horus and his father; or a metric crapton of padding that'd diminish the whole thing even further.

And I'm pretty sure that they have repeatedly said that the scouring won't be part of the Horus Heresy series. If they do it, it'll be its own thing - and a lot of post-Heresy events have already been covered here and there, from Battle of the Fang / The Hunt for Magnus over Dark Angels via Gav Thorpe to Night Lords and The Talon of Horus, Skalathrax...
Many of the important post-Heresy events have already been touched on. The Talon of Horus specifically says a bunch of things about it all.

It won't be part of the Horus Heresy series. Horus will already be dead by that point, rendering the label moot.

well, if abnett would be the guy who write the showdown between horus and the big E, i already don't want to read it. mean to say, in PROSPEARO BURNS(a book about, well, PROSPEARO BURNING!!!) dan wrote a book that devoted about a paragrafh to the fight between russ and magnus, and almost nothing to the fight between the wolves and the thousand sons. wet leopard grawl, indeed...
dan abnett would be the last guy i'd want to cover the showdown. his heart is'nt in "it" anymore.

ReconTrojan
24-07-2015, 03:55
To be fair about Prosperaro Burns as I recall Magnus held back his legion, the Spire Guard , the orbital platforms and sent his fleet away because he felt he deserved the punishment for breaking his fathers web way. So I think the battles were somewhat truncated for that reason. Although can someone explain why the Emperor would not keep Magnus on Terra to help fight the warp spawn attacking through the web way? He broke it, he is powerful so get him and his legion on it. Plus I still have a hard time with the timing of Horus changing Malodors orders to apprehend and return to destroy.

bound for glory
26-07-2015, 00:09
the changing of the orders were never even mentioned. as far as i know, its not been mentioned in any hh book.

Nazguire
26-07-2015, 02:42
the changing of the orders were never even mentioned. as far as i know, its not been mentioned in any hh book.

It has been mentioned in Scars and Prospero Burns, from memory. But it hasn't been expanded on due (in my opinion) to how it detracts from the complete tragedy of the Burning of Prospero. It was one of those throwaway mentions in Collected Visions that made no sense upon further inspection.

ReconTrojan
26-07-2015, 05:05
It has been mentioned in Scars and Prospero Burns, from memory. But it hasn't been expanded on due (in my opinion) to how it detracts from the complete tragedy of the Burning of Prospero. It was one of those throwaway mentions in Collected Visions that made no sense upon further inspection.

Yep, I can think of 3 instances it is referred to because I was wondering what Russ would think if he knew. I originally thought Magnus didn't know and how would he react but obviously he new in Scars because he tells their Primarch. Plus that may have something to do with his assistance in this last book. I know it must be a real pain to balance lore, lots of different angles and threads plus be handcuffed by BL itself as a writer. That said I sure wish they wouldn't throw that stuff out like a hook for me to swallow...like I said in another thread, it was my problem also with the Interex.

Animal310
26-07-2015, 12:37
the changing of the orders were never even mentioned. as far as i know, its not been mentioned in any hh book.

P409 False Gods

Horus smiled 'Calm yourself Mal. I have already contacted my brother Russ and illuminated him with the full breadth of Magnus's treacherous use of demonic spells and conjugations. He was.... suitable angry, and I believe I have convinced him that to return Magnus to Terra would be a waste of time and effort.

Maloghurst returned Horus's smile 'Magnus will not leave Prosperous alive.'

'No' agreed Horus. 'He wil not'

now I'd love to read both the Emperor's conversation with Russ and Horus's subsequent one.

bound for glory
27-07-2015, 01:16
ok. so its in false gods. i really thought prosrearo burns was the worst book in the whole series. even worse than battle for the abyss. at least BFTA had skarn, that bad ass world eater...

DarkChaplain
27-07-2015, 04:11
*Skraal



Of course you're right but I embellished to make a point. The most recent book Deathfire still talks about the sands of Istvaan so for me it seems the books have never left it.

Yes, Deathfire talks about Isstvan. Isstvan V, mind you, not III, which you originally refered to.
Nevermind that the Salamanders' last big engagement together was on Isstvan, where they saw not only their own Legion die, but also those of the Iron Hands and Raven Guard, got stabbed in the back by supposed allies and completely outnumbered by traitors, some of which were barely human anymore.

Of course there would be trauma associated with their experiences on Isstvan V. What do you expect? That they just forget about losing 90% of their brethren, saw a Primarch be decapitated by his closest brother, were hunted down by their former allies (a good depiction of which is found in Strike and Fade by Guy Haley, printed in Legacies of Betrayal), barely surviving for ages, with pure luck making it possible for them to escape the system.

Everything changed at Isstvan. The rules of the galaxy were flipped upside down, especially for the Shattered Legions. Of course the books tackling them (not that we had many of those so far to begin with) will invariably deal with the scars of Isstvan. Sure, the Salamanders arc came pretty late into the series, but that's because of how it ties into the later events, not because BL is reaching back to the outbreak of the Heresy after all these years. Their story arc is directly entwined with most recent part of the main plot.

If you feel like the books "have never left it", then that is probably because the majority of the three Legions involved never have, and those that did are heavily scarred by those events, to the point where it shapes their very being, Legion structure and post-Heresy character.

ReconTrojan
27-07-2015, 17:44
*Skraal




Yes, Deathfire talks about Isstvan. Isstvan V, mind you, not III, which you originally refered to.
Nevermind that the Salamanders' last big engagement together was on Isstvan, where they saw not only their own Legion die, but also those of the Iron Hands and Raven Guard, got stabbed in the back by supposed allies and completely outnumbered by traitors, some of which were barely human anymore.

Of course there would be trauma associated with their experiences on Isstvan V. What do you expect? That they just forget about losing 90% of their brethren, saw a Primarch be decapitated by his closest brother, were hunted down by their former allies (a good depiction of which is found in Strike and Fade by Guy Haley, printed in Legacies of Betrayal), barely surviving for ages, with pure luck making it possible for them to escape the system.

Everything changed at Isstvan. The rules of the galaxy were flipped upside down, especially for the Shattered Legions. Of course the books tackling them (not that we had many of those so far to begin with) will invariably deal with the scars of Isstvan. Sure, the Salamanders arc came pretty late into the series, but that's because of how it ties into the later events, not because BL is reaching back to the outbreak of the Heresy after all these years. Their story arc is directly entwined with most recent part of the main plot.

If you feel like the books "have never left it", then that is probably because the majority of the three Legions involved never have, and those that did are heavily scarred by those events, to the point where it shapes their very being, Legion structure and post-Heresy character.

Agree with everything you wrote. heck the latest short story " Massacre " takes us right back and it was just released.

Couple of questions. How did the 4 Legions that betrayed at Isstvan 5 purge their loyal Marines, I mean even the Alpha legion with their whacky interpretation of serving must have had some marines that thought it was wrong.

The next has really bothered me from the start, if Keeler was getting messages from the Emperor why didn't he send these same messages to some of his conflicted sons that were on the fence to keep them in the fold? You would figure that he would be pretty dialed into these 18 guys, in fact in one of the stores when Russ is on Terra and the Emperor is fighting demons in the web-way Malodor tells him that Russ is here...and Big E says do you not think I don't feel his presence?. Of course I took this two ways including my feeling that Russ is a very powerful perhaps right behind Magnus in that regard and the other E is connected.

Tymell
27-07-2015, 17:59
How did the 4 Legions that betrayed at Isstvan 5 purge their loyal Marines, I mean even the Alpha legion with their whacky interpretation of serving must have had some marines that thought it was wrong.

I'd imagine they each dealt with it in different ways.

The Night Lords had already been essentially renegades for a good while, and given the murderous nature of their legion I'd imagine it wouldn't be too hard for Curze to remove those he would expect to remain loyal.

The Word Bearers turned decades before, giving them plenty of time to convert those among their legion (who already have a naturally "faithful" nature as seen in The First Heretic), or in some cases remove them.

The Alpha Legion have a number of factors working for them in this regard. They have a brief 'head start' as seen in Legion, their duplicitous nature could work well for convincing or even just manipulating some of their own, and the secrecy that shrouds the legion would mean quiet removal of staunch loyalists could go unnoticed. Aside from all that, there have been several stories showing a schism of sorts among the legion, so it's likely there are plenty on both sides (and some pretending to be on one but not...)

The Iron Warriors is probably the trickiest, especially since we've seen so little of what happened with them at Olympia, and Perturabo's actual turn. I haven't read Angel Exterminatus since it came out, so there might be some stuff in there I'm forgetting, but I suppose they could make use of their naturally high attrition rates, and widespread galactic deployment, to help weed out staunch loyalists. And in a way, this is borne out in the series, as we've seen quite a lot of loyalist Iron Warriors (Cayne from Vengeful Spirit, Dantioch and his group from Iron Within, Warsmith Annovuldi in Ravenlord, Kyr Vhalen's group at Paramar V from Forge World's HH Book III)

ReconTrojan
27-07-2015, 21:01
I'd imagine they each dealt with it in different ways.

The Night Lords had already been essentially renegades for a good while, and given the murderous nature of their legion I'd imagine it wouldn't be too hard for Curze to remove those he would expect to remain loyal.

The Word Bearers turned decades before, giving them plenty of time to convert those among their legion (who already have a naturally "faithful" nature as seen in The First Heretic), or in some cases remove them.

The Alpha Legion have a number of factors working for them in this regard. They have a brief 'head start' as seen in Legion, their duplicitous nature could work well for convincing or even just manipulating some of their own, and the secrecy that shrouds the legion would mean quiet removal of staunch loyalists could go unnoticed. Aside from all that, there have been several stories showing a schism of sorts among the legion, so it's likely there are plenty on both sides (and some pretending to be on one but not...)

The Iron Warriors is probably the trickiest, especially since we've seen so little of what happened with them at Olympia, and Perturabo's actual turn. I haven't read Angel Exterminatus since it came out, so there might be some stuff in there I'm forgetting, but I suppose they could make use of their naturally high attrition rates, and widespread galactic deployment, to help weed out staunch loyalists. And in a way, this is borne out in the series, as we've seen quite a lot of loyalist Iron Warriors (Cayne from Vengeful Spirit, Dantioch and his group from Iron Within, Warsmith Annovuldi in Ravenlord, Kyr Vhalen's group at Paramar V from Forge World's HH Book III)

Thanks for that.

I think the Alpha legion is the trickiest because they still think what they're doing is for the Emperor. They have so many plans within plans ( Dune always comes to mind with these books) that killing loyalist must be difficult for some of them. Perturabo is a strange one agreed. He at some point thought he should have been Warmaster, some of the novels give him a depth beyond just a siege master but for as well built these guys are they're beyond petty. As Malodor told the Death Guard lord, he told E to make them woman...they sure act like a sewing club in some of these novels.

MiyamatoMusashi
27-07-2015, 21:19
The Word Bearers turned decades before, giving them plenty of time to convert those among their legion (who already have a naturally "faithful" nature as seen in The First Heretic), or in some cases remove them.

If anything, they had the opposite problem: a number of Word Bearers were soooooooo fanatical about their new primordial truth that they were becoming unhinged, borderline lunatics. Hence, Calth - Lorgar sent all the fanatics and fruit-loops on a suicide mission of planetary scale, even if they didn't realise that's what it was. It's no coincidence he wasn't at Calth himself, and nor was Argel Tal, nor any other of Lorgar's favoured sons.

Poncho160
27-07-2015, 21:41
As the HH series goes on (well from the FWs side of things, not the BL) I am liking the Word Bearers more and more. Just a few years ago, they were a non-descript leigion who were just chaos fanatics, no where as important as the "big five" chaos legions. The HH has made them the main instigators and players. Definently considering building my own Word Bearers force when the HH plastics come out.

ReconTrojan
27-07-2015, 22:15
If anything, they had the opposite problem: a number of Word Bearers were soooooooo fanatical about their new primordial truth that they were becoming unhinged, borderline lunatics. Hence, Calth - Lorgar sent all the fanatics and fruit-loops on a suicide mission of planetary scale, even if they didn't realise that's what it was. It's no coincidence he wasn't at Calth himself, and nor was Argel Tal, nor any other of Lorgar's favoured sons.

With 250K plus legionnaires they assuredly had room to cull their numbers though. Of course sending their secret dreadnoughts to destroy a moon helps as well but they were taking on the largest Legion and IMO the best Primarch for assembling a defense other than Dorn.

7788
28-07-2015, 13:57
That's how incomprehensible the Horus Heresy has become, almost 10 years and over 100 stories in the current telling:


Couple of questions. How did the 4 Legions that betrayed at Isstvan 5 purge their loyal Marines, I mean even the Alpha legion with their whacky interpretation of serving must have had some marines that thought it was wrong.

The next has really bothered me from the start, if Keeler was getting messages from the Emperor why didn't he send these same messages to some of his conflicted sons that were on the fence to keep them in the fold? You would figure that he would be pretty dialed into these 18 guys, in fact in one of the stores when Russ is on Terra and the Emperor is fighting demons in the web-way Malodor tells him that Russ is here...and Big E says do you not think I don't feel his presence?. Of course I took this two ways including my feeling that Russ is a very powerful perhaps right behind Magnus in that regard and the other E is connected.

All legitimate questions, and imo items that after all this time should definitely not be left hanging.


I'd imagine they each dealt with it in different ways.

The Night Lords [snip] I'd imagine [snip]

The Word Bearers turned decades before, giving them plenty of time to convert those among their legion (who already have a naturally "faithful" nature as seen in The First Heretic), or in some cases remove them.

The Alpha Legion [snip] could work well for convincing or even just manipulating some of their own, and the secrecy that shrouds the legion would mean quiet removal of staunch loyalists could go unnoticed. Aside from all that, [snip] it's likely

The Iron Warriors is probably [snip] there might be some stuff in there I'm forgetting, but I suppose [snip].

And unfortunately this is what happens. Tymell's reasoning is valid, (and in the case of Word Bearers probably correct, as hinted by BL), but we shouldn't have to make assumptions, or imagine anything. These are important points and GW should have covered them satisfactorily by now. Personally, I like to leave such questions hanging. Rushing to answer them (and we can do that only in a conditional manner) imo distracts from the main point, which is: GW should do the right thing here.

Oots
28-07-2015, 15:08
I'd imagine they each dealt with it in different ways.

The Night Lords had already been essentially renegades for a good while, and given the murderous nature of their legion I'd imagine it wouldn't be too hard for Curze to remove those he would expect to remain loyal.

In Prince of Crows, Night Haunter laughs at the idea of culling disloyal elements from his legion. They're all such murdering, backstabbing villains, he wouldn't even know where to begin.

ReconTrojan
28-07-2015, 15:26
Which is why Master of Mankind could be the most important book in the series. Of course it hasn't even been started nor even discussed any more which disappoints me greatly. On one hand I see the benefit of keeping the Emperor this mythical like being that seems to dart in and out of discussions but in HH he fought alongside his Marines for hundreds of years and later with his sons. With some of his sons he is discussed in the same tones as a father/son ( Magnus) and even the rank and file have seen him from the Unification Wars forward. I would like there to be some insight that points to the understanding he is building towards something beyond 40k and knowing he will have his favored sons with a reincarnated Emperor in the big fight down the road. The Eldar far seer saw this and even tried to warn Fulgrim, he mentions the last battle in his vision and the return of his lost sons. So we get all these bits and pieces.

I'm sure the writers want to get into this but the accountant is having no part of it.

Marshal_Loss
29-07-2015, 02:32
Which is why Master of Mankind could be the most important book in the series. Of course it hasn't even been started nor even discussed any more which disappoints me greatly. On one hand I see the benefit of keeping the Emperor this mythical like being that seems to dart in and out of discussions but in HH he fought alongside his Marines for hundreds of years and later with his sons. With some of his sons he is discussed in the same tones as a father/son ( Magnus) and even the rank and file have seen him from the Unification Wars forward. I would like there to be some insight that points to the understanding he is building towards something beyond 40k and knowing he will have his favored sons with a reincarnated Emperor in the big fight down the road. The Eldar far seer saw this and even tried to warn Fulgrim, he mentions the last battle in his vision and the return of his lost sons. So we get all these bits and pieces.

I'm sure the writers want to get into this but the accountant is having no part of it.

From memory, I'm pretty sure it was said (by ADB) that Master of Mankind wouldn't actually be from the Emperor's POV, so I'm sure they realise how important it is to maintain his aloofness from the other characters of the setting. Mind you this memory could either be incorrect or out of date, but quite sure I read that somewhere

The bearded one
29-07-2015, 03:17
The Emperor shown from his point of view will almost by default be disappointing. You cannot possibly make the words on paper as inhumanely intelligent and awe-inspiring as the Emperor's mind is supposed to be. Do not try to delve into the mind of God in order to look out of His eyes; the experience will be hollow.

Poncho160
29-07-2015, 04:28
I am assuming it would be near impossible to write a book from the Emperors perspective. How on earth could anyone write a book from the perspective of a super-duper hyper intelligent being, that is only just connected to humanity. How do you write a book from the perspective of a near god... No one alive could do it.

ReconTrojan
29-07-2015, 17:06
I had read that the original Master of Mankind novel would be not from his POV but those around him. With that said I would argue that the Emperor based on the short injections of his commentary and more importantly his actions/in actions he is less than what he touted to be. In the Dune series we see Muad'Dib use his prescience to the tee, good or bad, including walking into a stone-burner and losing his sight. In Warhammer this Emperor has the same sort of ability and makes very shaky choices or avoids them altogether. I want to know why.

In 40k you have trillions of souls worshiping him. In the short story ' Last Church Standing" the Emperor debates a priest and says that is done, over, finished. But yet we have Keeler a mere 200 years later being fed by a ' God" and becoming a saint. I'm sorry but there is so much hypocrisy by this guy I want to know why.

He is assuredly the ends justifies the means guy ( look at the Thunder warriors or even Night Lords) but on the other side of his mouth he espouses everything is being done for the survival of mankind. Some books say that he is in utter pain in 40k, languishing on the Golden throne....even said he foresaw this but yet couldn't pull the trigger on Horus sooner? The Emperor had fanatics guarding him, fighting for him etc. I still have a problem with the whole universe and its writing of never addressing what we see in 2015...the ability of the common guy, determined, funded and trained to bring down the big guy. 21 guys brought an attack and changed the most powerful nation on earth on 9/11. Are we to believe that the Sisters of Battle couldn't strap on atomics, blind Chaos and traitor alike and rush and pull the pin and kill him? If he can eat a 50 MT device and live...fine. tell me that but he can't. He was almost killed by a Raven Guard gunship.

DarkChaplain
29-07-2015, 19:43
And yet Keeler isn't exactly free to go, now, is she? She's being held on Terra, in the Palace, not giving sermons to the people. She can call herself a saint all she likes, but she contrary to what you're implying, she doesn't have the Emperor's or Malcador's seal of approval at this point. Heck, when Sigismund listens to her, Dorn kicks him out of his fold.

ReconTrojan
29-07-2015, 21:07
And yet Keeler isn't exactly free to go, now, is she? She's being held on Terra, in the Palace, not giving sermons to the people. She can call herself a saint all she likes, but she contrary to what you're implying, she doesn't have the Emperor's or Malcador's seal of approval at this point. Heck, when Sigismund listens to her, Dorn kicks him out of his fold.

We don't know exactly where she is and how do you know she doesn't have the Emperors approval? Further, she never referred to herself as a Saint, everyone around her did. Loken, Half-Heard and Garro all rallied to her words as they struck a cord in some conflicted feelings they were having. Dorn also beat the crap out of Garro for implying Horus was a traitor even though he asked for the truth....it took the video to get him to even see any reason. So Dorn is hardly an example of a open-minded or calm individual for dealing with anything outside the norm to that point.

Keeler didn't ask for this, Something or someone was guiding her and by all accounts it was the Emperor. I find it ironic that in most instances of the HH mortals are crapped on, when they are around it is always " Astartes Business " and to move along. yet the Master of Mankind picks a small female mortal to pass the word as it were. Yet my main point is still valid, if he can speak to her then why not directly to say Dorn since you brought it up?

ReconTrojan
04-08-2015, 19:09
Dark Chaplain- First I want you to know I always enjoyed your insights in the year I just read this site and not posted.

I don't know how I missed it but I did, I just read Crimson Fist and see your reference you made. I, again, come away with a different view. Dorn is being short-sighted and ever so fragile in being hurt over his brother Horus. First Garro and now his First Captain? So everybody who doesn't tell him what he wants to hear he assaults or cuts loose? How different is he from the Iron Warriors Primarch killing one of his Captains for daring to bring bad news? I'm with Malcador, should have made them sisters!

Another problem is so Dorn is having these all-night planning sessions with Malcador and others and at no time does Mr Wizard think it would make sense to tell him what the hell is going on downstairs and what he should expect to be landing on Terra, you know, demons?!

Instead we get more of this clinging to the Imperial Truth even though evidence is piling up to dispute it. This is why the Empire broke up, hiding the truth.

Ketchupino
11-08-2015, 11:27
I think there will be another 30+ books..

If BL publish so booring novels like Damnation, about few IH on some brakish planet which fighting with dinos and where really nothing important happen ( i finish this book because i finish all, but with great problems) so then really important events like Siege of Terra must have 5-7 books.

bound for glory
11-08-2015, 17:12
what book comes after this salamander mess?

7788
11-08-2015, 18:34
I hope it's not the new Calth mess as posted by Death Nikorps on July 10 in the BL News & Rumours forum ("New releases confirmed").

ReconTrojan
12-08-2015, 02:43
I think there will be another 30+ books..

If BL publish so booring novels like Damnation, about few IH on some brakish planet which fighting with dinos and where really nothing important happen ( i finish this book because i finish all, but with great problems) so then really important events like Siege of Terra must have 5-7 books.

I agree and thats a bare minimum.

I am very curious how Horus and his fleet are going to penetrate the solar system with enough forces to even make landfall. There have been excellent books in the past in other sic-fi genres from David Weber for instance that discuss space denial tactics using mines and fighters operation off fixed platforms, both of which are in the 30k universe. While Dorn is fortifying Terra I would imagine thousands of ships are patrolling the Terra system. I have no idea if there is a common warp point that enters the system but this is the Big E's house so imagine he has some control over the warp this close to home, certainly Malcador does if he can make Titan disappear.
Does anyone know whatever happened to the Emperors Battle-Barge? In one of the short stories it dwarfed the VS so one would think you would build a strike fleet on that ship to attack the VS. While we all know what happens in a true tactical sense Dorn should have committed his defense in layers ( at least I hope the books discuss this) and severely wear down the traitors. Another question, why are they not using atomics buried at key massing formations of the traitors? a strike that could wipe out thousands of Asartes would be devastating. The palace has shields but I have never seen in any 40k book shielded landing zones.
Anyway I see Terra being a 10 book arc with 5 each from loyal/traitor perspective....again, minimum.

I just thought of a possible answer to my question, is it because of the gaming? There is no ship battles in your board games right? or nukes? ( make it pretty quick I would imagine) While I understand where they get their butter from a military standpoint waiting to have these WW1 battles with walls and trenches and thousands of guys charging at each other with swords etc. is a bit frustrating when you have teleportation, Space Travel and well...nukes.

Nazguire
14-08-2015, 07:25
I agree and thats a bare minimum.

I am very curious how Horus and his fleet are going to penetrate the solar system with enough forces to even make landfall. There have been excellent books in the past in other sic-fi genres from David Weber for instance that discuss space denial tactics using mines and fighters operation off fixed platforms, both of which are in the 30k universe. While Dorn is fortifying Terra I would imagine thousands of ships are patrolling the Terra system. I have no idea if there is a common warp point that enters the system but this is the Big E's house so imagine he has some control over the warp this close to home, certainly Malcador does if he can make Titan disappear.
Does anyone know whatever happened to the Emperors Battle-Barge? In one of the short stories it dwarfed the VS so one would think you would build a strike fleet on that ship to attack the VS. While we all know what happens in a true tactical sense Dorn should have committed his defense in layers ( at least I hope the books discuss this) and severely wear down the traitors. Another question, why are they not using atomics buried at key massing formations of the traitors? a strike that could wipe out thousands of Asartes would be devastating. The palace has shields but I have never seen in any 40k book shielded landing zones.
Anyway I see Terra being a 10 book arc with 5 each from loyal/traitor perspective....again, minimum.

I just thought of a possible answer to my question, is it because of the gaming? There is no ship battles in your board games right? or nukes? ( make it pretty quick I would imagine) While I understand where they get their butter from a military standpoint waiting to have these WW1 battles with walls and trenches and thousands of guys charging at each other with swords etc. is a bit frustrating when you have teleportation, Space Travel and well...nukes.

I'd imagine that Horus would, along with being the greatest military mastermind in the Imperium, be concentrating all his major forces into one final assault. The background has always maintained that Horus attacked Terra after the Loyalists had believed that they had started to make some headway against the Traitors. So by surprising, with massive numbers.

No doubt there will be some deus ex machina in the series to help him get through as well.

RobC
14-08-2015, 16:03
I wonder what a newcomer would make of a series with over sixty titles in it? That level of time commitment becomes a disincentive, in my view.

ReconTrojan
14-08-2015, 19:18
I wonder what a newcomer would make of a series with over sixty titles in it? That level of time commitment becomes a disincentive, in my view.

I enjoy reading so I would like it as long as it was mostly good. I think with that many titles you're bound to get some clunkers but for the most part it is very enjoyable. I just wish it was at the level of the early novels.

ReconTrojan
14-08-2015, 19:19
I'd imagine that Horus would, along with being the greatest military mastermind in the Imperium, be concentrating all his major forces into one final assault. The background has always maintained that Horus attacked Terra after the Loyalists had believed that they had started to make some headway against the Traitors. So by surprising, with massive numbers.

No doubt there will be some deus ex machina in the series to help him get through as well.

Hi, thanks for the reply. Could you elaborate more on the statement of the loyalist believing they've gotten the upper-hand? Everything I've read is Dorn & Company believe they're screwed.

DarkChaplain
14-08-2015, 20:04
I think the bigger problem is how newcomers will make sense of the series' order of books, considering they're not printing numbers anywhere on cover or spine, outside of the collector's edition hardbacks.
Sure, they've started printing almost complete lists in newer novels, but people browsing the books in stores will likely never see the first few being sold anymore, and might not even realize how many books there are in the series before picking up number 25 or such.

ReconTrojan
14-08-2015, 20:47
I think the bigger problem is how newcomers will make sense of the series' order of books, considering they're not printing numbers anywhere on cover or spine, outside of the collector's edition hardbacks.
Sure, they've started printing almost complete lists in newer novels, but people browsing the books in stores will likely never see the first few being sold anymore, and might not even realize how many books there are in the series before picking up number 25 or such.

Have you seen the timeline on BL website? It lists the reading order now, it's in the lower right I believe.

DarkChaplain
15-08-2015, 09:46
Doesn't help newcomers who see a book in a store, think the cover is cool and want to look into it.

The timeline on the website meanwhile is badly maintained, faulty in so many places that it is getting pathetic, and even enthusiasts on here frequently forget that it even exists, due to be crammed away. Besides, the BL store is terrible, and the search is a clusterduck.

RobC
16-08-2015, 10:40
I enjoy reading so I would like it as long as it was mostly good.There comes a point when you have more books than you have time to read. I don't think the day will come where I declare book bankruptcy and donate my 300+ unread books to charity, but I'm already at the stage where shorter, standalone books are more appealing simply because they don't demand as much commitment.

DarkChaplain
16-08-2015, 17:08
I'm with you there, Rob. My unread books are piling up, and I keep adding more. At some point the backlog of unread books becomes a massive obstacle that sucks the fun out of things.

Initially one might think "I have three whole omnibuses of Gaunt's Ghosts ahead of me! Great!", but it quickly becomes a chore rather than an enjoyable hobby, and new, fresher works will grasp for your attention. Having the discipline to finish your backlog before tackling new things isn't easy, either. And that's using the GG as an example, a series which has ground to a standstill over the past years. The Horus Heresy is still going, in many other formats and price ranges...

ReconTrojan
18-08-2015, 20:03
I just noticed the new HH announced take us back to Calth for yet another story of the fight between Ultramarines and Word Bearers.

May have been light on my prediction of 100 books plus to finish the HH series. The other book continues to explore the downfall of the III legion, notably their Primarch.

DarkChaplain
19-08-2015, 06:34
Calth was raging almost until the Heresy was dealt with. The Underworld War falls well within the current present day. Let's wait and see what they're tackling, it might well feed into the Ultramarines' unhappiness with Imperial Secundus or the like

ReconTrojan
20-08-2015, 03:51
Calth was raging almost until the Heresy was dealt with. The Underworld War falls well within the current present day. Let's wait and see what they're tackling, it might well feed into the Ultramarines' unhappiness with Imperial Secundus or the like

Why do you think the Ultramarines are unhappy about Secundus? Do you think they wanted Terra to fall so Ultramar would be the center? I have no feelings one way or the other for the Ultramarines, they are solid and dependable but the whole practical/theoretical thing gets old at times. I get why they had 250k Space Marines with 500 worlds but I wonder why they didn't have a bigger fleet and the whole muster at Calth bothered me as again why would you not meet the Orks in space as opposed to letting them make landfall. I always have so many questions....

DarkChaplain
20-08-2015, 09:35
Calth was just the mustering point, where the Ultramarines and Word Bearers were supposed to rendezvous before setting out to take war to the Orks. This was on Horus's orders. But then, the whole Ork threat was a lie, and the Legions never boarded their ships to travel there. We can't tell what the eventual strategy against them would have been. We just know they were readying to go to war and talked about how to take the greenskins down.
The fleet above Calth, which was supposed to be part of the muster and transportation, got mostly devastated by the orbital defences when they got taken over by the Word Bearers. They had the fleet, it went poof.

I agree with the theoretical/practical stuff, it felt kinda jarring and is one of the instances where Dan Abnett tried to add in his own stuff to a Legion which was already established in a lot of ways and didn't need some gimmick like that.

Well, judging from recent Imperial Secundus works, not even Guilliman seems happy with how it is working out. The Lion is angry, as usual, and Guilliman is conceding his thronerooms to Sanguinius, who doesn't do much apart from refusing to play Roboute's politics the way he'd expect.
The Ultramarines that took part in the initial celebrations, like Lucretius Corvo, who'd found the Novamarines, were uneasy with celebrating at court and attending political meetings instead of fighting the war. The defenders of Calth won't be much happier about being left behind, I take it - Aeonid Thiel for example didn't even know about IS existing until he made for Macragge after a few years on Calth. Then you have the Red-marked which aren't very happy with how passive Guilliman is being, very defensive overall.

There are plenty of boiling points in Ultramar left, including on Calth. Word Bearers, Night Lords, daemonspawn...

ReconTrojan
20-08-2015, 14:00
Calth was just the mustering point, where the Ultramarines and Word Bearers were supposed to rendezvous before setting out to take war to the Orks. This was on Horus's orders. But then, the whole Ork threat was a lie, and the Legions never boarded their ships to travel there. We can't tell what the eventual strategy against them would have been. We just know they were readying to go to war and talked about how to take the greenskins down.
The fleet above Calth, which was supposed to be part of the muster and transportation, got mostly devastated by the orbital defences when they got taken over by the Word Bearers. They had the fleet, it went poof.

I agree with the theoretical/practical stuff, it felt kinda jarring and is one of the instances where Dan Abnett tried to add in his own stuff to a Legion which was already established in a lot of ways and didn't need some gimmick like that.

Well, judging from recent Imperial Secundus works, not even Guilliman seems happy with how it is working out. The Lion is angry, as usual, and Guilliman is conceding his thronerooms to Sanguinius, who doesn't do much apart from refusing to play Roboute's politics the way he'd expect.
The Ultramarines that took part in the initial celebrations, like Lucretius Corvo, who'd found the Novamarines, were uneasy with celebrating at court and attending political meetings instead of fighting the war. The defenders of Calth won't be much happier about being left behind, I take it - Aeonid Thiel for example didn't even know about IS existing until he made for Macragge after a few years on Calth. Then you have the Red-marked which aren't very happy with how passive Guilliman is being, very defensive overall.

There are plenty of boiling points in Ultramar left, including on Calth. Word Bearers, Night Lords, daemonspawn...

Good post, thanks.

I was under the impression Horus told the Ultramarines that Calth was the actual target hence the muster there and he was sending reinforcements. I am re-reading the original books like the Outcast dead and picking up small things I missed in the original readings as I started late in this series and while reading in order there were other titles I wanted to get to in a hurry.

jareddm3
21-08-2015, 02:57
Why do you think the Ultramarines are unhappy about Secundus? Do you think they wanted Terra to fall so Ultramar would be the center? I have no feelings one way or the other for the Ultramarines, they are solid and dependable but the whole practical/theoretical thing gets old at times. I get why they had 250k Space Marines with 500 worlds but I wonder why they didn't have a bigger fleet and the whole muster at Calth bothered me as again why would you not meet the Orks in space as opposed to letting them make landfall. I always have so many questions....Side note about the Ultramarine's fleet. While it was large enough to match their large legion, there was a much heavier focus on small to mid-sized vessels in the Strike Cruiser to Battle Barge range. Unlike legions like the Imperial Fists or the Death Guard who focused much more are large battleship-sized vessels spread throughout their legions.

ReconTrojan
21-08-2015, 17:28
Side note about the Ultramarine's fleet. While it was large enough to match their large legion, there was a much heavier focus on small to mid-sized vessels in the Strike Cruiser to Battle Barge range. Unlike legions like the Imperial Fists or the Death Guard who focused much more are large battleship-sized vessels spread throughout their legions.

I saw that mentioned in one of the recent books. While tonnage plays a part in these naval battles there is something to be said for having a lot of Strike Cruisers, after all they seem to do well in the 40k universe. I would love there to be a Order of Battle for each universe to get a better understanding of military strength. In the early HH books we were told there were thousands of fleets/expeditions of various sizes, love for that to be honed down to actual numbers and composition.

jareddm3
24-08-2015, 13:06
I saw that mentioned in one of the recent books. While tonnage plays a part in these naval battles there is something to be said for having a lot of Strike Cruisers, after all they seem to do well in the 40k universe. I would love there to be a Order of Battle for each universe to get a better understanding of military strength. In the early HH books we were told there were thousands of fleets/expeditions of various sizes, love for that to be honed down to actual numbers and composition.. Wouldn't really work as expedition fleets are changed, merged together, renumbered, and reclassified throughout the entire Great Crusade. It was even stated that for a time, they had two expedition fleets with the same designation operating on opposite sides of the galaxy. That said, we have been given an exact count of expedition fleets in Horus Rising.

Darke
27-08-2015, 15:14
I predict at least 60 novels total for the Heresy storyline - this is one of Black Library's top cash cows, they won't end it early. However, they are starting to use the tagline "The March to Terra" in some of the promotional materials, so maybe we will see some more progress down that path.

I look forward to the inevitable "Lost Legions" series that pits Horus, the Emperor, and the rest of the Primarchs against the two "Lost Legions" and their unknown Primarchs. Perfect follow up series to the Horus Heresy and would be a license for Black Library to continue printing money.

7788
28-08-2015, 00:40
I look forward to the inevitable "Lost Legions" series that pits Horus, the Emperor, and the rest of the Primarchs against the two "Lost Legions" and their unknown Primarchs. Perfect follow up series to the Horus Heresy and would be a license for Black Library to continue printing money.

Perhaps, but unlikely, as this doesn't tie to a game. In better times BL could have probably done it, as a BL-only project (at least temporarily). The old rationale for the missing legions may no longer be valid (the obvious reference to the two "lost" historical Roman Legions being used as a way for players to justify their homebrew chapters) but I doubt we're going to see anything from BL that doesn't involve the other parts of GW's business.

Giledan
28-08-2015, 15:48
Aaron is apparently writing on Master of Mankind again:
https://aarondembskibowden.wordpress.com/2015/08/28/okay-okay-fine-this-is-what-im-writing/

Tymell
28-08-2015, 18:49
Aaron is apparently writing on Master of Mankind again:
https://aarondembskibowden.wordpress.com/2015/08/28/okay-okay-fine-this-is-what-im-writing/

And like that you've made my year.

DarkChaplain
28-08-2015, 23:44
I hope it isn't 2015, but 2016 at best :D

Tymell
29-08-2015, 03:08
I hope it isn't 2015, but 2016 at best :D

The news that he's working on it again is what has made my year. The release itself will be a whole other one made :D

kilkrazy
30-08-2015, 09:16
I predict 310 written works about the heresy.
I cant wait to read about the remnants of 6th squad/ 104 company of the Raven Guard doing some sneaky, jump packy stuff, thats probably out on the galactic fringe, assaulting something that denys Horus a squad of khaos guardsmen.

So ADB has done the first page, does that mean hes finished Abbadon?

The thing with the Ultras that pisses me off, Is they had the largest legion, against the untrustworthy scraps of the WB, WE, a few raiding AL and rag tag NL.
They sit on their hands for Terra, but happy to fight over the rad destroyed Calth. So Horus takes Terra, did Guilliman think he'd be safe by himself after that.
Bloody politicians. He's going to have a revolt on his hands.

Darke
30-08-2015, 14:50
So what do we know for sure is coming up for new Horus Heresy future releases?

1) The Honoured by Rob Sanders: More Underworld War on Calth. The general release date through Amazon is April 2016, so it is likely that we will see a release through the Black Library site around January/February 2016, if not earlier.

2) The Unburdened by David Annandale: More Underworld War on Calth. The general release date through Amazon is May 2016, so it is likely that we will see a release through the Black Library site around February/March 2016, if not earlier.

3) Red-Marked Audio Drama by Nick Kyme:I assume this will be another Aeonid Thiel audio drama. This used to be advertised for a mid-2016 CD release by Amazon, but has since dropped off their site. We could see a digital release any time by Black Library.

4) Master of Mankind by Aaron Dembski-Bowden: The War in the Webway. He says he is hoping for a 2016 release and has been working on it for around 8 months.

5) The Crimson King by Graham McNeill: Follow up to A Thousand Sons. A few months ago McNeill said he was halfway finished with the book, but given his new job responsibilities, who knows when it will be finished? He is a very fast writer, though.

6) Untitled Scars follow up by Chris Wraight: Wraight has said he has been working on this for a few months. No release date known.

7) Dreadwing by Dan Abnett: Imperium Secundus novel about the Dark Angels. Abnett has been mentioned as having been writing this for at least 2 years. Given his non-Black Library projects and success, who knows when this will be finished.

8) Angels of Caliban by Gav Thorpe: Caliban based Dark Angels novel. Thorpe has been working on this for a while and he is a very fast writer, so we might see this soon.

9) Deathfire follow up by Nick Kyme: Another Salamanders based novel. Kyme is also a very fast writer, but I imagine he might do his next 40k Salamanders novel (Infernus) first before this.

10) Rumored Death Guard novel by James Swallow: A few years back it was mentioned at one of the Weekenders that James Swallow was working on a full novel about the fall of the Death Guard to Nurgle. I haven't seen any confirmation of this for a long time - anyone have any more information?

I've also seen reports that Guy Haley and John French are working on additional novels as well, but no reports on what topics they cover.

Any other information for more releases that is out there?

Tymell
30-08-2015, 18:23
The only others I've heard talk of are an Imperium Secundus anthology (though some/all of this might be existing shorts), a second graphic novel by Gav Thorpe, and a 3rd Raven Guard novella, also by Gav. Also Nightfall, a Night Lords novel by ADB, but I'd imagine that's firmly on the back bench currently, if it's still intended at all.

Personally, while I'm sure there will be a Death Guard novel (as their fall to Chaos is a significant event to cover), I'm really hoping Chris Wraight does it. No offence to James Swallow, but his work on the HH has been fairly mixed, while Wraight's portrayal of Mortarion in Daemonology (and Scars) was excellent, and I'd love more of that.

Also hopeful for that mention of a Guy Haley HH novel. I've enjoyed everything he's done in the series so far, and Twisted in particular was brilliant. I think that's what the series needs right now really, some full novels by those writers that have shown good promise with shorter stories in the series, like Guy Haley, Matthew Farrer, John French and Anthony Reynolds.

Darke
30-08-2015, 19:44
I was actually fairly impressed by Anthony Reynold's novella "The Purge", and of course his Kharn novel/novella was probably the best thing he's ever written for BL. He definitely could handle a full novel.

I was shocked to see the Mechanicum short from Matthew Farrer last December - he had not done any work for BL for years. After Desh'ea is one of the best short stories in the entire HH line, so he should definitely be given a chance to do a full novel, in my opinion.

Tymell
30-08-2015, 22:44
Update on my post from something I just saw over on B&C, from ADB himself.

Regarding Master of Mankind: "I spent almost all of last year writing Ragnar. I've spent all of this year so far writing Master of Mankind. Since moving into my new office a couple of months ago I've sped up a lot, almost back to an actual professional novelist's speed."

Regarding Nightfall: "I've not thought about Nightfall in years, though. Its slot in the schedule is long gone, and I couldn't really make it work in my head as something bound to Unremembered Empire. I've got ideas for Night Lords stuff, especially getting on with Sevatar's development arc, and I definitely want to get my ideas for the Legion out there, but I doubt it'll get a look in any time soon."

So Nightfall itself may well not happen, even if more Night Lords stuff does, and if it does it'll be a good while. But at least we have MoM on the way :) (let the abbreviation jokes roll!)

shadowhawk2008
31-08-2015, 12:27
The thing with the Ultras that pisses me off, Is they had the largest legion, against the untrustworthy scraps of the WB, WE, a few raiding AL and rag tag NL.
They sit on their hands for Terra, but happy to fight over the rad destroyed Calth. So Horus takes Terra, did Guilliman think he'd be safe by himself after that.
Bloody politicians. He's going to have a revolt on his hands.

They had the largest legion yes, approx 250k marines. The WB sent an army of about 100-120k marines against them. The UMs thought the WBs were coming to Calth to join them for a joint legion-level campaign. Turns out the WBs basically ambushed the UMs and destroyed most of their orbital and ground defenses and even the fleet before the UMs got a chance to hit back. They took severe losses. Calth was a wasteland on the surface. Not all the WBs left the planet towards the end of that first engagement. The UMs had to secure their planet before they could do anything else. And now basically they are paralyzed. They are cut off from reinforcements from the rest of the Imperium. No communication. They hunker down and rebuild. What else did you expect them to do?

jareddm3
31-08-2015, 12:50
The Ultramarines had 186,000 marines at Calth. A full third of them died in the opening betrayal and another third died in the fighting that would follow.

ReconTrojan
31-08-2015, 20:31
The Ultramarines had 186,000 marines at Calth. A full third of them died in the opening betrayal and another third died in the fighting that would follow.

Which would still leave them at about 100k Marines which is still a large force. In addition I imagine they have a far larger than normal Scout force and with 500 planets to recruit from the ability to rebuild is far quicker than any other legion.

On another note, that sneaky ADB! very happy to read that MoM has been in development all this time. Still not liking the third person viewpoint as I am all for this opportunity to understand the Big E, more importantly this would be a great time to lay out there the " Emperor Protects" and how he does it from his viewpoint and perhaps a glimpse of how he sees things playing out after he basically " dies" ...just a glimpse is all I ask.

shadowhawk2008
01-09-2015, 05:38
Which would still leave them at about 100k Marines which is still a large force. In addition I imagine they have a far larger than normal Scout force and with 500 planets to recruit from the ability to rebuild is far quicker than any other legion.

Very true. But you also have to remember that a large part of the senior leadership of the legion was gone. The survivors were all scattered throughout the 500 worlds, and even beyond on various detachments and small fleets and what not. And on top of that the warp storms caused by Erebos and Kor Phaeron were wreaking havoc everywhere. That 100k marines number is all well and good but when you lack cohesion and are cut off, things are very much different.

bound for glory
05-09-2015, 03:41
welcome back, shadow! where the hell ya been?

shadowhawk2008
06-09-2015, 05:37
Magic mostly :-) With all the general lack of any solid information about upcoming releases and a lot of the big-name authors delaying their projects, my interest in BL in general has waned in recent months. The End Times is really all that I've followed to any degree, and all I've heard from friends about Age of Sigmar hasn't given me any hope for Fantasy at all.

With regards to the HH, speculating doesn't really matter when we don't know where the series is heading right now. If there was more clarity on the story progression, then yeah, but when the series seems to be mired in side-plots and all, with little focus being given to the major events and a consolidation of plot lines, there might as well be 30 more novels, or 50

bound for glory
06-09-2015, 17:26
spot on, shadow. spot on.

ReconTrojan
06-09-2015, 23:26
Very true. But you also have to remember that a large part of the senior leadership of the legion was gone. The survivors were all scattered throughout the 500 worlds, and even beyond on various detachments and small fleets and what not. And on top of that the warp storms caused by Erebos and Kor Phaeron were wreaking havoc everywhere. That 100k marines number is all well and good but when you lack cohesion and are cut off, things are very much different.

True. However unlike the Salamanders and Iron Hands they have a strong leader present aka their Primarch. I would say having RG is worth a grip of Captains and Sgt's. I would imagine he moves rather quickly promoting the survivors of Calth and getting them integrated into the rest of the companies.

A question out of left field since I just read a Imperial Guards novel called Desert Rats has there ever been mention of a Tyrnaid invasion of a Ork world? One more, do you think had Horus not turned to turned much later would humanity of wiped out the Orks? I am always playing what if when I read these books, 20 strong legions to deal with all the 40k problems.

shadowhawk2008
07-09-2015, 06:05
Perhaps. The Ultramarines and Word Bearers were gathering for invading an Ork empire after all, though much of the info on this proposed compliance was (probably) forged by Horus' people to draw the Ultramarines into an ambush on Calth. And the Ork Warlord that the Emperor and Horus took down before Horus was made Warmaster ruled the largest Ork empire in the galaxy. The Orks would certainly have been hunted down to near-extinction but complete wipeout is not possible.

DarkChaplain
07-09-2015, 06:50
The White Scars were hunting down Orks up to the point where they became aware of the Heresy, too. They were the main guys tasked with eradicating them after Ullanor.

Darke
07-09-2015, 15:03
I suspect in some alternate timeline where Horus (and I guess even Lorgar) remained loyal, that nothing would have stopped the eventual domination of the entire galaxy by the Imperium. From reading the Forge World Horus Heresy books, along with the BL Horus Heresy novels, outside of the Ork Empire at Ullanor, there really was not anything that was ever portrayed as a real threat to the Great Crusade and the Imperium.

Although there is actually some interesting portions in the Tempest book describing the Dark Angels as suffering extremely heavy losses fighting the third "Rangdan incursion" which was said to come from outside the galaxy. There is not really any more information than that, but the casualties suffered by the Dark Angels were extremely significant. I suppose we might get more information on this in a future FW book centered on the Dark Angels.

From the book:

The Dark Angels, who in the previous decade to this had been undoubtedly the most powerful single Legion, had fallen in number and evened this figure, having suffered massive causualties holding the line during the famed Third Rangdan Xenocide; the blood of 50,000 Space Marines spent in preventing the destruction of perhaps the entire northern Imperium by the menace from the outer darkness.

Snake Tortoise
07-09-2015, 17:25
True. However unlike the Salamanders and Iron Hands they have a strong leader present aka their Primarch. I would say having RG is worth a grip of Captains and Sgt's. I would imagine he moves rather quickly promoting the survivors of Calth and getting them integrated into the rest of the companies.

A question out of left field since I just read a Imperial Guards novel called Desert Rats has there ever been mention of a Tyrnaid invasion of a Ork world? One more, do you think had Horus not turned to turned much later would humanity of wiped out the Orks? I am always playing what if when I read these books, 20 strong legions to deal with all the 40k problems.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Octarius_War

Great bit of fluff! In the current and/or previous tyranid codex/es it was pointed out that the Imperial strategy would fail because whichever faction was the winner would emerge more powerful than before, not weakened. Tyranids because they'd feed on the ork biomass, and orks because they grow bigger and stronger in times of war

7788
07-09-2015, 18:29
Perhaps. The Ultramarines and Word Bearers were gathering for invading an Ork empire after all, though much of the info on this proposed compliance was (probably) forged by Horus' people to draw the Ultramarines into an ambush on Calth.

That's not probable, but certain, according to GW. It was part of Horus' plan to deal with the UM on a strategic level. For the WB, the mission had additional objectives.