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SanDiegoSurrealist
22-07-2015, 19:46
Just some random musings.

The age of making lists are gone. They 60 wound, 3 hero, 2 monsters, blah-blah-blah will not work.
The age of Swedish comp is gone.
And I also disagree with the idea that pick-up games will take hours of sorting out what the guidelines for the game are etc. I think in fact it will go much faster.

Here is an example:
Player A, let call him Rick the Dick, and Player B, let’s call him Awesome Kevin, completely random names grabbed out of the air.
Rick and Awesome Kevin decide they want to play a game of Age of Sigmar. They meet and find a table at their local game store, let’s call the game store the Art of War again completely random.

They both declare what armies they will be playing. Rick, being the dick he is declares “I am playing Death, because I like playing broken armies that don’t run away and can regrow units at will, and I have trouble satisfying women in bed.” Kevin, being awesome says “That is fine, I will play Order, because they have Lizardmen and because dinosaurs are awesome!” They set up terrain, as per the AoS 4 page rules. They roll a die to see who goes first...

Still no lists have been made. They just picked a table and opened up their respective battle foam/army boxes.

…Rick wins the roll and says “I will deploy this battle scroll that I have for 5 Black knights!” Rick deploys a unit of 5 Black Knights on his half of the table.
Kevin looks at his Battle Scrolls and into his box of models and decides a good counter unit for the Black Knights is a unit of Cav of his own.
“I choose to deploy a unit of 8 Cold One Cav to counter your Black Knights.” Says Kevin looking handsome as ever. “That guy must work out!” is overheard from a young an attractive soccer mom who happens to be in the store buying models for her kid that lives with his father most of the year.

Rick deploys a unit of Grave guard and Kevin counters with a unit of Temple Guard.
Rick – Terrorgesist
Kevin – Carnasaur
Rick – Black Coach
Kevin – Stegadon
Rick – Skeletons
Kevin- Saurus Warriors
Rick – Krell
Kevin – Slann


This goes back and forth, back and forth, back and forth, until finally Kevin says “That is enough that is all I am placing”
Rick, being a dick as usual, places 2 more units of zombies.

Rick now has 1/3 more models than Kevin, so Kevin gets to choose a sudden death victory condition.

That is it.
That is the balance.
There is no more all-comers lists, because it is all All-Comers-Lists now.
Whatever you have in your battle foam box when you show up is your army.
You can play it all or just a couple units, it is ultimately up to you.
The balance comes from the guy across from you not bringing 200 models, but if he does you get the sudden death victory option. If he brings 10 Blood Thirsters then screw that guy he has more money than sense, and is a complete Rick!

In tournaments it is self-balancing, if players keep dropping units until they are out of models or out of space they would hamstring themselves. Victory conditions being the way they are in AoS is you pretty much have to wipe the other guy out or complete and objective. In your typical 2.5 - 3 hour tournament round that would be impossible if the field is littered with units, it would just take entirely too long to actually finish the game.

So what have we learned here?
Don’t be a Rick.

All characters appearing in this work are fictitious. Any resemblance to real persons, living or dead, is purely coincidental. :)

Vladyhell
22-07-2015, 20:23
And after Rick has had his ass handed to him by sudden death for the fifth time he finally gets thats trying to deny your opponent sudden death is the main balancing factor.

Glad I'm not the only one who gets it.

HurrDurr
22-07-2015, 20:26
why did rick place 2 units of zombies and not 7 great cannons at the end?



Snoopdog places 3 units of 40 slaves and a warlord + warlock engineer.

Clinton not wanting to give his opponent sudden death places 50 daemon princes and 20 hell cannons in order to stay under the model count triggering sudden death, but actually gains it instead.

FLAKPANZER
22-07-2015, 20:30
Thanks for the laugh.

Rick sounds like the kind of guy that might deploy just enough models that it isn't quite 1/3 more than those of Awesome Kevin.

Daniel36
22-07-2015, 20:30
We all know what the sequel will be like. Rick will head on to pastures steamy, like Warmachine. Kevin sounds like an awesome person. He might get a spin-off series.
This is basically how we play. Fortunately, we have a group of friends so we even talk beforehand about what we will and will not place. I had a wonderful battle last night. Balanced? Probably not, but Empire is far more powerful when in numbers this edition. Lesson learned. Orcs are fun!

No, not Orruks, Orcs. I choose to play the Age of Sigmar RULES in the Warhammer Old World SETTING! I wonder what my nickname would be in this story...

Sephillion
22-07-2015, 21:11
Sudden Death would work fine... if number of model was a good indicator of balance. It’s not. Some models are vastly more powerful than others. It’s terrible at low model counts (15 models get Sudden Death vs 20 models… what?) and terrible for Horde-type armies.

As for your method, it is a good way of getting something not too unbalanced… as long as your collection can keep up with that of Rick. Which maybe is the point and the way to sell more models? So you have enough models that you can keep putting them to match your opponent’s?

AngryAngel
22-07-2015, 21:33
And after Rick has had his ass handed to him by sudden death for the fifth time he finally gets thats trying to deny your opponent sudden death is the main balancing factor.

Glad I'm not the only one who gets it.

I would say, what if Rick, just decides to field the whole barns worth of models and summons double that much during the game. Does winning in the game even matter ? If Rick spends the whole time beating Kevin down, but Kevin wins on a technicality of sudden death, why should Rick care at all ? How does this teach Rick anything ? That he can't ever say he won ? I don't know about you, but I look at the game as the journey, and less as the end result. Sure I want to win, but if I spent a game doing well, and lose to a technicality, I still feel like I won, doesn't much matter if I lost. That is a goofy mechanic and just means your stuck in a 6 turn game to claim the " win " that has little to no worth.

Rick should just keep playing, let his opponent win always but have his victory in fielding everything his heart desires each game. He will, I am sure, learn his lesson.


why did rick place 2 units of zombies and not 7 great cannons at the end?



Snoopdog places 3 units of 40 slaves and a warlord + warlock engineer.

Clinton not wanting to give his opponent sudden death places 50 daemon princes and 20 hell cannons in order to stay under the model count triggering sudden death, but actually gains it instead.

Yes you can make a very potent low model count list that can end up high model count, to make sure you get the sudden death or avoid giving it. The system is, not very elegant and not a very good balancing factor.

thesoundofmusica
22-07-2015, 21:34
50 daemon princes and 20 hell cannons

If you have those models ready and painted then go for it!! I salute you man!

SanDiegoSurrealist
22-07-2015, 21:40
If you have those models ready and painted then go for it!! I salute you man!

Agreed, but also goes back to someone who probably has more money than sense, and is likely a complete Rick!

MOMUS
22-07-2015, 21:47
A couple of comp systems are already being worked upon by tournament organisers in the UK. A system similar to Swedish could be implemented and would actually be more efficient as it wouldn't have to work around the arbitury points values that GW have used in previous editions.

AngryAngel
22-07-2015, 21:48
Yes but that still doesn't answer why the win means anything in AoS, lets say super Rick shows up, and fields everything but the kitchen sink. After playing the game why would Super Rick even care he lost ? Is there some kind of mystic karma given for the win ? Are you then blessed from above because you won ? Does anyone besides who won even care ? That balancing factor only matters if a loss at warhammer means anything compared to enjoying the whole game by fielding anything you want, in what numbers you want.

SanDiegoSurrealist
22-07-2015, 21:48
... Sure I want to win, but if I spent a game doing well, and lose to a technicality...

It is not a technicality, it is a mechanic of the game. If Awesome Kevin is able to whether the storm of the massive onslaught of innumerable undead, manages to over come overwhelming odds to hold a piece of ground or to break though the line and kill the Vampire General, that is not a technicality that is an earned victory.

Holding a unit in reserve and bringing it on in the last turn to deny victory is a Technicality, and pretty *******.

AngryAngel
22-07-2015, 21:53
It is a mechanic, that is a technicality, like a TKO in boxing. If delusional Kevin really feels like he won that match, if he was a turn away from death, all power to him. However, what does that win even mean to Kevin ? What does that loss mean to Rick ? You seem to put a high value on victory, I just don't think it is there. With a system this loose how can you even really feel competitive ? It is an experience and that is about the size of it with win or loss as more a long distant secondary consideration. I'll say I doubt Kevin feels like a winner after getting pounded all game long, I'd bet further Rick feels very pleased with himself, despite being the dreaded loser of the match.

I'll say this, the only real balancing factor that exists fresh from the box for the game is, you can always just decline a game and give someone the win and save yourself some time once you see what someone brings, that is about it, sudden death is a simple mechanic to discourage only the weakest of gamey behavior, but can be very easily abused and twisted to give a one sided battle that final nail of hopeless, or if give the other side a moral victory after taking a pounding most all game long.

SanDiegoSurrealist
22-07-2015, 21:59
It is a mechanic, that is a technicality, like a TKO in boxing. If delusional Kevin really feels like he won that match, if he was a turn away from death, all power to him. However, what does that win even mean to Kevin ? What does that loss mean to Rick ? You seem to put a high value on victory, I just don't think it is there. With a system this loose how can you even really feel competitive ? It is an experience and that is about the size of it with win or loss as more a long distant secondary consideration. I'll say I doubt Kevin feels like a winner after getting pounded all game long, I'd bet further Rick feels very pleased with himself, despite being the dreaded loser of the match.

It is a game of little plastic men, played with friends over a few beers.
Victory is 5 minutes of bragging rights.
"Dude, you brought all that stuff and I still broke through! Order will always Prevail!" or "Dude you did not stand a chance against my massive army of the Undead! Feel my Wrath!"
"Want to do it again?"
"Sure!"

AngryAngel
22-07-2015, 22:04
It is a game of little plastic men, played with friends over a few beers.
Victory is 5 minutes of bragging rights.
"Dude, you brought all that stuff and I still broke through! Order will always Prevail!" or "Dude you did not stand a chance against my massive army of the Undead! Feel my Wrath!"
"Want to do it again?"
"Sure!"

If that is the case how is Rick even at all being a Dick ? Sounds like they both had a good game and experience, despite him throwing the kitchen sink at him. However in that case I'd say Rick and Kevin don't really even need the balancing factor as Kevin is fine with Rick taking far too many units, and Rick is perfectly great in allowing Kevin those sudden death, cinematic victories.

SanDiegoSurrealist
22-07-2015, 22:11
You seem to have plenty of opinion but no solution.

What is your solution AngryAngel?

MOMUS
22-07-2015, 22:19
You seem to have plenty of opinion but no solution.

What is your solution AngryAngel?


I think somone already posted one :shifty:

Shifte
22-07-2015, 22:26
Funny read, but not the most relevant example. It's ad absurdum - not every disagreement about balance is because someone is a dick and someone is a hero. Not every player who enjoys a competitive game is a dick, either. Here is another random example:

***

Big Nigel and Wee Bobby decide to have a game of Age of Sigmar. They played a lot of 7th and 8th against one another and thought they'd test out the new rules. They've built up a bit of a rivalry over the years and look forward to adding new stories to the detailed history of their armies.

Both of them play Orcs and Goblins.

Big Nigel puts down 30 Orc Boys, 30 Savage Orc Boys, 30 Black Orcs, 20 Arrer Boys, a giant, three chariots, 10 Savage Orc Boar Boys, an Orc Shaman and an Orc Warboss on a Boar. (126 models)

Wee Bobby responds in turn with 40 Night Goblins, 40 Night Goblins, 40 Goblins, 20 Night Goblin Archers, 1 Giant, 10 Spider Riders, 10 Wolf Riders, 5 Squig Hoppers... (166 models)

Big Nigel declares that he has no more Orcs to put down. He practices his mighty WAAAAGH, looking to gain a bonus during the game, and scares away the pretty lady who was oogling Awesome Kevin at the table one over. Wee Bobby, meanwhile, does some mental arithmetic and realises that he is going to give away Sudden Death.

Wee Bobby: "Ugh, this sucks. I like Goblins but they're as valuable as Orcs now more or less, model wise. If I put down as many Goblins as I used to you easily get sudden death."

Big Nigel: "I guess the game is just balanced that way, now. Goblins get a bonus for being in a horde, right? It'll be fine."

Wee Bobby: "Meh. It's not the same. Screw it, I'll just give you sudden death and see how it goes."

Wee Bobby puts down 40 more Night Goblins, 3 Trolls, 2 Bolt Throwers and a Night Goblin Shaman. He reaches down to his case to grab Skarsnik, the leader of his army since 7th edition...

Big Nigel: "Don't you think that's a bit much? I got sudden death a while ago. Maybe you shouldn't take Skarsnik, it'd be a bit unfair."

Wee Bobby: "I could take all of this before. Skarsnik always leads my army. It's even painted up like his clan."

Big Nigel: "Yeah but I mean... right, fine. Let's just see how it goes."

Awesome Kevin grins cheerily in the background, bellowing to Rick the Dick about how great his dice rolls have been so far, how much fun Age of Sigmar is and how Rick should chill out and realise that the simple act of rolling dice and not trying to treat the game as a competition is the true way to enjoy Warhammer. Rick protests, suggesting that he doesn't like Age of Sigmar's exclusively casual nature, but Awesome Kevin interrupts him with a gleaming smile and insists that opponents just need to talk to one another before the game. Rick needs to stop being so unsociable and super serious. Rick sighs and leaves the shop, frustrated.

Meanwhile, Big Nigel and Wee Bobby have started their game. Big Nigel decided that his sudden death win condition would be assassination, so Wee Bobby picked Skarsnik. He keeps Skarsnik near the back and tries to avoid losing him. The game starts and Wee Bobby makes better decisions than Big Nigel. Wee Bobby also rolls a little over average, which punishes Big Nigel's army even more. Nigel loses a lot of Orcs and Wee Bobby is riding high. Skarsnik manages to kill the Orc Warboss in an epic and closely fought duel, too! Suddenly, though, Big Nigel declares that his Orc Arrer Boys will shoot Skarsnik despite being in melee with the Spider Riders and Squig Hoppers. They deal Skarsnik his final wound and, despite Wee Bobby facing minimal casualties, Big Nigel wins.

Big Nigel chuckles; "Hah! That was lucky!"

Wee Bobby looks annoyed; "That sucked. I was creaming you! I can't believe you can shoot from combat."

Big Nigel: "Yeah that's a bit weird... but I guess it made up for the armies being imbalanced. That's what Sudden Death is for, when someone has a big advantage they get a weakness."

Wee Bobby: "It wasn't unbalanced. If this was 8th ed you had about the same points as I did."

Big Nigel: "You totalled my army. This is a different game, remember. It isn't 8th so those points don't matter."

Wee Bobby: "I totalled your army because you sent 30 Orc Boys and 30 Black Orcs after my 10 Spider Riders and let the rest of my army pick off your battleline. Besides, Goblins are still a lot worse than Orcs. It's not one for one."

Big Nigel: "I did that because I had no chance in beating your battle line 1v1. It worked, it kept my Arrer Boys ignored until the end and they assassinated Skarsnik."

Wee Bobby: "Which is stupid, they were in melee. I know you won the game technically but not really."

Big Nigel: "Not really? Come on, dude. My goal was to kill Skarsnik. Your army was way too powerful to beat you in a square fight. You need to lose a few units for this to be fair."

Wee Bobby: "It -wasn't- unfair on you. It was unfair on me. Besides, how am I supposed to play a Night Goblin horde army if I have to have so few models???"

Awesome Kevin interjects: "Calm man. It's just a game. Just have a laugh and play."

Wee Bobby: "I am calm. I just don't like these rules. I like having a horde army. I shouldn't be punished because my troops aren't as good on a per model basis. And you shouldn't be able to shoot from melee, or into melee."

Awesome Kev: "Just TALK to each other before the game, dude. Socialise. Speak to your opponent and stop being so serious! That will resolve everything, dude. I have a degree in diplomacy, negotiation and arithmetical balancing. Trust me."

Big Nigel: "I also think shooting from combat is silly. And to be honest, we did talk before the game. That's why we're arguing, now."

Wee Bobby: "I miss points. We never argued before, we just made fun of Matt Ward and got on with it. If we thought something was ******** we just accepted it because there was an impartial arbitrator of balance. Even if he was usually wrong."

Big Nigel: "Yeah. I miss Matt Ward too. How weird is it to say that?"

Awesome Kevin: "I love Matt Ward! Codex Grey Knights was awesome."

Wee Bobby: "Is there anything Games Workshop release that you don't like, Kevin?"

Awesome Kevin: "I don't understand the question."

Big Nigel: " ... right, let's grab Rick and get some dinner. Maybe we can get a game of 40k tomorrow."

Wee Bobby: "I heard there's a game like Warhammer, from that company... Mantic? I don't know, we should check it out."

Big Nigel: "Maybe. Cya, Kev! Good luck."

Awesome Kevin chuckles; "I don't need luck, I'm just epic. I am the KEVSTER. I'll see you guys next time you decide to have fun!"

Big Nigel: "KTHX BYE."

***

Awesome Kev might be "awesome", but nobody actually likes him! :P Meanwhile, it seems unlikely that Rick, Nigel or Bobby will be anywhere near as enthusiastic about Age of Sigmar as he is. They may not play it again.

Bede19025
22-07-2015, 22:45
The same thing has been said ad nauseum, and with a lot more brevity. But thanks for the amusing story.

ewar
22-07-2015, 23:02
Very nice read :)

SanDiegoSurrealist
22-07-2015, 23:13
Funny read, but not the most relevant example. It's ad absurdum - not every disagreement about balance is because someone is a dick and someone is a hero. Not every player who enjoys a competitive game is a dick, either. Here is another random example:


Actually the only reason Rick was a Dick was because he dropped 2 extra units at the end of deployment.
The argument that it unfair to give Awesome Kevin a sudden death victory option was 100% in the hands of Rick, in this FICTIONAL scenario the battle was even until he dropped those extra units.
So if that makes Kevin the unlikable guy in this story in your eyes, then so be it that is not on him.

Shifte
22-07-2015, 23:27
Actually the only reason Rick was a Dick was because he dropped 2 extra units at the end of deployment.
The argument that it unfair to give Awesome Kevin a sudden death victory option was 100% in the hands of Rick, in this FICTIONAL scenario the battle was even until he dropped those extra units.
So if that makes Kevin the unlikable guy in this story in your eyes, then so be it that is not on him.

Who says it was a balanced lineup before Rick deployed the two zombie units? Why is Krell the equivalent of a Slann? Does putting down two more units than your opponent make you a dick?

I don't think your example works. It relies on the idea that two different players will be able to agree on what is an "EVEN" game just by spending 5 minutes talking. Like my example alluded to, not every situation is going to be as simple as that. How many Gnoblars is an Ogre worth? Remember, if I take four Gnoblars and you take one Ogre, you get sudden death. Scale that problem up. It's a poor system of balance.

It's fair enough that different people will variously enjoy/dislike Age of Sigmar, but the fact that you think someone putting down two units of zombies is being a dick demonstrates the huge problem with the rules. Basically, you think that those two extra units made an even game unbalanced. Your opponent disagrees. One of you (or more likely both of you) is going to be dissatisfied with the outcome.

Sudden Death doesn't work that well, either. Like you hinted at, 10 Bloodthirsters are the equivalent of 10 Goblins in the rules. Plus, if your opponent gets sudden death, you may as well put down everything you can at that point for all the difference it makes. The game encourages you to play with whatever models you want to play with, too. If 40k did that I'd want to play with my whole Chaos Marine collection as often as I could. I'm always wanting to put down more models. Rule limitation is important for controlling those instincts!

And Awesome Kevin isn't likeable because he seems to have been handed everything in life and is judgemental of poor Rick the Dick, who just wants to play a fun game of toy soldiers! :D :p

RandomThoughts
22-07-2015, 23:33
It is a mechanic, that is a technicality, like a TKO in boxing. If delusional Kevin really feels like he won that match, if he was a turn away from death, all power to him. However, what does that win even mean to Kevin ? What does that loss mean to Rick ? You seem to put a high value on victory, I just don't think it is there. With a system this loose how can you even really feel competitive ? It is an experience and that is about the size of it with win or loss as more a long distant secondary consideration. I'll say I doubt Kevin feels like a winner after getting pounded all game long, I'd bet further Rick feels very pleased with himself, despite being the dreaded loser of the match.

Real life story here, one of my most glorious memories from when I still played GW games on a regular base was a game with (4th) Eldar vs. (new) Grey Knights. The first hour or two were frustrating like hell, my shooty units failed to shoot the Grey Knights and were shot to pieces, my fighty units failed to slash the Grey Knights and were slain in melee, but then, around turn four, I suddenly saw something: My opponent was so caught up in the slaughter and bloodbath ("blood for the emperor!", I guess...) that he had completely lost sight of the scenario. The flags were pretty much uncontested, my last few unbroken models were in range to just get there in time...

So turn five wound down, I looked my opponent square in the eyes and said "game ends now, I've won."

The look on his face was absolutely priceless. The game didn't end, and I actually managed to get two more times withing a lucky dice roll (I think one was blowing up his contesting tank or not) of a victory - and even though I lost in the end, it was one of the ost glorious games we ever had. This, how do I put it, this desperate come-from-behind scenario, the closest thing to a dramatic showdown I had in GW games in a long time.

Now I mostly play Warmachine, so it's not so special anymore. Being able to end the game at any moment if you break through for the assassination, sacrificing your whole army to hold the opponent long enough off the scenario objectives for a scenario win, a lot of those are truly epic. My best games these days are the ones that end with one player taking a last, desperate shot at the win, sometimes pulling it off - Do or Die time; really the best time in tabletop games for me.

So yeah, I get the point you're trying to make, but I think what you describe as a lame outcome can actually be a pretty epic outcome.

Mateobard
22-07-2015, 23:33
Shifte, you are my gorram hero.

Let me talk about my actual experiences. I've played a bunch of Age of Sigmar, and the core problem never, ever changes.

My opponent shows up with Ogres and Vampire counts. I show up with Dwarf and Empire. We deploy until we are done. He has a tone of wounds on the table - 70 more than I do? He has a ton less models on the table, so he gets his Sudden Death objective. I have to table him (I'm at the wounds disadvantage), he only has to get 3" from a tree on turn 4.

He summons, during the battle, nearly 100 undead buddies to come make his objective happen. His 4-wound, 3 wound per unsaved, 4+ save, 7 Bravery Ironguts and his Leadbelchers are absolutely destroying my army. His 6 mortal wound per shot Thudnertusk is murdering heroes and war machines at will. He can sweep me from the table *or* get his Sudden death victory condition and I can more or less just watch him play.

Yes, we are both maximizing our synergy. Yes, we are both playing well and smart. Yes, we are both doing everything we can to win the game. There's just no way I can table him (my victory condition) and prevent him from getting his Sudden Death.

I played again not long ago, this time against a friend's orcs. We deployed, one for one. I wound up way over deployed. He was tabled by turn three, and had little chance to win the entire game.

Sudden Death is not a balancing factor. The game is radically unbalanced, and anyone who tells you other wise should take up land sales in Florida. There's no cohesive system possible that can comp the game because summoned models can summon other models. Several different 1st turn kills exist under the rules. you basically have to rewrite the game in order for it to be truly playable. That, or you have to just convince yourself that Age of Sigmar is something that it's not - a game.

The game is terrible. Terribly written, terribly unbalanced. There is no genius there *at all*. And it's going to fail spectacularly over time.

AngryAngel
22-07-2015, 23:37
You seem to have plenty of opinion but no solution.

What is your solution AngryAngel?

I'm sorry, I didn't think this was a problem we were discussing. I thought this was an editorial, where you were saying how good a balancing mechanic sudden death is. Isn't that the point of the story ? So why was there need for someone to drop any solutions at all ? I did however say one, and it isn't sudden death. I'm also, disagreeing that sudden death is a great balancing mechanic.



Actually the only reason Rick was a Dick was because he dropped 2 extra units at the end of deployment.
The argument that it unfair to give Awesome Kevin a sudden death victory option was 100% in the hands of Rick, in this FICTIONAL scenario the battle was even until he dropped those extra units.
So if that makes Kevin the unlikable guy in this story in your eyes, then so be it that is not on him.

If the models were on a 1 for 1 basis of worth, then sure, Rick is the Dick, but that isn't very true is it ? So what did it matter if Rick dropped a couple more units of zombies ? It is a very skewed story and the only real feeling someone gets is Awesome Kevin loves all that is GW, thereby he is a hero, while Rick seemingly is a dick, for fielding more zombies and somehow the sudden death mechanic is the one saving grace for balance, when its not.

I could use to hear more stories with Rick, Kevin, Bobby and Nigel going over all the goods and bads, it'll be a very informative read for the whole family !!

@Random thoughts, I'm not saying they can't be epic, I'm just saying win or loss can be a bit unimportant. Honestly I would love to give the opponent the epic win as long as I had fun the whole game, doesn't matter to me at all.

Mateobard
22-07-2015, 23:42
A lack of offered solution in no way undermines critical analysis. It is not incumbent on anyone but GW to fix Age of Sigmar.

Niall78
23-07-2015, 00:02
Shifte, you are my gorram hero.

Let me talk about my actual experiences. I've played a bunch of Age of Sigmar, and the core problem never, ever changes.

My opponent shows up with Ogres and Vampire counts. I show up with Dwarf and Empire. We deploy until we are done. He has a tone of wounds on the table - 70 more than I do? He has a ton less models on the table, so he gets his Sudden Death objective. I have to table him (I'm at the wounds disadvantage), he only has to get 3" from a tree on turn 4.

He summons, during the battle, nearly 100 undead buddies to come make his objective happen. His 4-wound, 3 wound per unsaved, 4+ save, 7 Bravery Ironguts and his Leadbelchers are absolutely destroying my army. His 6 mortal wound per shot Thudnertusk is murdering heroes and war machines at will. He can sweep me from the table *or* get his Sudden death victory condition and I can more or less just watch him play.

Yes, we are both maximizing our synergy. Yes, we are both playing well and smart. Yes, we are both doing everything we can to win the game. There's just no way I can table him (my victory condition) and prevent him from getting his Sudden Death.

I played again not long ago, this time against a friend's orcs. We deployed, one for one. I wound up way over deployed. He was tabled by turn three, and had little chance to win the entire game.

Sudden Death is not a balancing factor. The game is radically unbalanced, and anyone who tells you other wise should take up land sales in Florida. There's no cohesive system possible that can comp the game because summoned models can summon other models. Several different 1st turn kills exist under the rules. you basically have to rewrite the game in order for it to be truly playable. That, or you have to just convince yourself that Age of Sigmar is something that it's not - a game.

The game is terrible. Terribly written, terribly unbalanced. There is no genius there *at all*. And it's going to fail spectacularly over time.

Balance is something designed into a games system from the very beginning. It is a core part of game design. As you have pointed out it isn't something that can be bolted on after a system has launched.

AoS will never be balanced properly making it nearly unplayable in any kind of competitive fashion. GW just abandoned the fantasy tabletop market to its competitors with much better more balanced offerings.

Spiney Norman
23-07-2015, 00:23
why did rick place 2 units of zombies and not 7 great cannons at the end?

Also why did his black knight unit only contain 5 models and not 30? Why did he not bring Nagash (who can pretty much win games by himself).

A real Rick wouldn't bring undead anyway, he'd most likely bring chaos warriors or ogres and just spam the most elite thing available, a unit of 30 chosen, or 20 chaos knight are virtually immovable in AoS.

AoS is about bringing as many super-elites as you can, waiting until your opponent stops deploying and then finishing your deployment just under the limit for allowing instant death, that's really all there is to the game.

SanDiegoSurrealist
23-07-2015, 00:38
Who says it was a balanced lineup before Rick deployed the two zombie units? Why is Krell the equivalent of a Slann? Does putting down two more units than your opponent make you a dick?

And Awesome Kevin isn't likeable because he seems to have been handed everything in life and is judgemental of poor Rick the Dick, who just wants to play a fun game of toy soldiers! :D :p

What if the 2 units of zombies were 40 models each?

I like how you gave a backstory to awesome Kevin. That's cute.

Spiney Norman
23-07-2015, 00:44
What if the 2 units of zombies were 40 models each?

I like how you gave a backstory to awesome Kevin. That's cute.

They're still zombies and are therefore pretty worthless, ironically Rick's force was probably inferior to Kevin's without the ID objective, esp since Kevin had much better summoning ability with his Slann. If Rick had dropped a unit of 20 varghesits or 40 grace guard instead of zombies I'd feel a little more sorry for Kevin.

Rick 'the dick's main problem seems to be that he doesn't really know how to be a dick in AoS.

itcamefromthedeep
23-07-2015, 00:47
Just some random musings.

The age of making lists are gone. They 60 wound, 3 hero, 2 monsters, blah-blah-blah will not work.
The age of Swedish comp is gone.
And I also disagree with the idea that pick-up games will take hours of sorting out what the guidelines for the game are etc. I think in fact it will go much faster.

Here is an example:

Player A, let call him Rick the Dick, and Player B, let’s call him Awesome Kevin, completely random names grabbed out of the air.
Rick and Awesome Kevin decide they want to play a game of Age of Sigmar. They meet and find a table at their local game store, let’s call the game store the Art of War again completely random.

They both declare what armies they will be playing. Rick, being the dick he is declares “I am playing Death, because I like playing broken armies that don’t run away and can regrow units at will, and I have trouble satisfying women in bed.” Kevin, being awesome says “That is fine, I will play Order, because they have Lizardmen and because dinosaurs are awesome!” They set up terrain, as per the AoS 4 page rules. They roll a die to see who goes first...

Still no lists have been made. They just picked a table and opened up their respective battle foam/army boxes.

…Rick wins the roll and says “I will deploy this battle scroll that I have for Nagash!” Rick deploys Nagash on his half of the table.
Kevin looks at his Battle Scrolls and into his box of models and decides a good counter unit for Nagash is a wizard of his own.
“I choose to deploy a Slaan to counter your Nagash.” Says Kevin looking handsome as ever. “That guy must work out!” is overheard from a young an attractive soccer mom who happens to be in the store buying models for her kid that lives with his father most of the year.

Rick deploys... nothing. "I'm good."
Kevin counters with a unit of Temple Guard.
Rick – "Keep Going."
Kevin – Carnasaur
Rick – "Alright. Yup."
Kevin – Stegadon
Rick – "I like it."
Kevin- Saurus Warriors
Rick – "Two thumbs up, buddy."
Kevin – 8 Cold One Cavalry

This goes back and forth, back and forth, back and forth, until finally Kevin says “That is enough that is all I am placing”
Rick, being a dick as usual, gets his deploying hands all stretched and ready. Nick cracks his knuckles and everything.

Rick now has way less than 1/3 fewer models than Kevin, so Rick gets to choose a sudden death victory condition. "I'll pass" says Rick. "What do you mean you'll pass?" asks Kevin. "Won't need it." says Rick. (Rick's a good sport about these things.)

Rick stopped deploying first, so he goes first, starting his Hero phase.

Rick's Nagash calls Supreme Lord of Death command ability, then drops a Pokeball and summons one of those magic tornadoes. He needs 5+ to summon it, and rolls a 7+3 is 10. Since he succeeded, the spell is free! Also, by making sure that nothing can come within 3" of the tornado he's sitting on, he's foiled Kevin's plan to munch Nagash with Ripperdactyls bringing a bonus to hit (A Skink Chief can give them 3+ to hit on top of their re-roll, where very hit generates a another free Attack).

For his first real spell, Nagash summons some Morghast Harbingers nearby. He rolls a two and a one on two dice, just enough to get to the spell's casting value of 7. "Phew." says Rick. Now Nagash is at +5 to cast rather than just +4 (or the +3 he had before summoning the tornado).

Next Nagash tries to summon some Skeleton Archers. 2d6 > 7+5=12, which is enough to summon 40 Skeleton Archers.

Next Nagash tries to summon some Terrorgheists. 2d6 > 7+5=12 again, which is enough to summon 2 Terrorgheists. He puts them about 36" away, behind that Slaan.

Next Nagash tries to summon some Zombie Dragons. 2d6 > 5+5=10, which is enough to summon 2 Zombie Dragons.

Next Nagash tries to summon some Crypt Horrors. 2d6 > 4+5=9, which is unfortunately only enough to summon 6 Crypt Horrors.

Next Nagash tries his luck with Vargheists. 2d6 > 3+5=8. ouch, only enough for 6 Vargheists.

Next Nagash tries to summon some Black Knights. 2d6 > 6+5=11, which is enough to summon 20 Black Knights.

Then Nagash uses Mystic Shield on himself, bringing him to a 1+ save with a re-roll on 1s. 3+ base, +1 for being in cover (on a terrain piece), and +1 for the Shield. Just in case, you know. Nagash is immune to close combat now, but Kevin might try to shoot Nagash with something.

In that shooting phase Rick starts by trying to kill that pesky Slaan before it can summon anything. He starts with the first Terrorgheist, who screams for 3D6 > 5, not nearly enough to kill a Slaan! The next one gets 3D6 > 8, also not enough. So, it's down to the Skeleton Archers then. 40 Archers get a total of 80 shots, 27 hits, 13 wounds and 8 failed saves later the Slaan perishes!

The Harbingers can probably make a charge this turn. They'll go after some Temple Guard. 3D6 > 11" for their charge distance. That's plenty. 8 dead Temple Guard later, and a failed Battleshock test mean that all 10 Temple Guard are gone!

Of the rest of Nick's army, only one of the Zombie Dragons makes their charge, against some Saurus Cavalry. Rick gets lucky though and inflicts 9 Wounds, destroying half the Saurus and after a Battleshock test only one of the 8 Saurus Cavalry remains. Kevin congratulates Nick on his stroke of good fortune, saying that it makes up for some of the poor summoning rolls and the screams from his Terrorgheists.

Kevin runs out of models by the end of Nick's third turn, but walks away happy. What a story of Lizardman heroism against incredible odds! Nick thanks him for the game, but recommends Kevin bring his whole Lizardmen collection next time to make it a fairer fight against Nagash.

Instead Kevin brings Daemons next time, and on turn 1 Kevin fills the table with summoned models.

That is it.
That is the balance.

AngryAngel
23-07-2015, 00:48
I think that is why Rick is such a dick, he's a poor cheat. You just can't respect someone who cheats you poorly in AoS.

big squig
23-07-2015, 01:50
I can't say for sure what GW exactly was hoping players would do with AoS, but to me the game is best when played more like this:

Kevin and Rick decide to play a game. Kevin has an idea for a fun game. "I've got some goblins and you've got some empire. How about my goblins try to burn down a village?" Rick and Kevin together pick out some models for both sides, deciding on goblin wolf boys and empire free company. They then together set up a small village and play.

Next time, maybe Rick has a fun idea for a narrative. They again together decide on a story, characters, and put a game together.

The point is, it's not a wargame, it's a 2 player RPG.

Dosiere
23-07-2015, 02:35
I'm having trouble figuring out the point of the OP but I'm assuming it's pointing out that Rick gave Kevin a handicap allowing him to presumably win? So Kevin is really the dick for not putting another unit on the table and avoiding the unfair sudden death scenario? Or Rick is just retarded because he thought 2 units of crappy zombies was enough of a swing in his favor in this massive game to justify intentionally giving Kevin sudden death? I don't understand why those arguing that Rick is a dick even care, it's freaking AoS, there apparently are no winners or losers according to many of you. If anything I would say Kevin is a dirty WAAC player for not offering to put another unit on the table when he realized Rick made a mistake placing the zombies.

Shandor
23-07-2015, 02:45
Rick opens his army Box and takes Nagash out and calls sudden Death befor the Game even begun... end of story :)

AngryAngel
23-07-2015, 02:56
I'm having trouble figuring out the point of the OP but I'm assuming it's pointing out that Rick gave Kevin a handicap allowing him to presumably win? So Kevin is really the dick for not putting another unit on the table and avoiding the unfair sudden death scenario? Or Rick is just retarded because he thought 2 units of crappy zombies was enough of a swing in his favor in this massive game to justify intentionally giving Kevin sudden death? I don't understand why those arguing that Rick is a dick even care, it's freaking AoS, there apparently are no winners or losers according to many of you. If anything I would say Kevin is a dirty WAAC player for not offering to put another unit on the table when he realized Rick made a mistake placing the zombies.

True, I love how even the heroes in the story playing AoS are actually dirty WAACers in disguise. This game is wicked.

Dosiere
23-07-2015, 03:11
Indeed, it is wicked. What I see here is a completely fictitious story designed to demonize a type of player who as far as I can tell is not only following the letter but the spirit of the rules in AoS. Rick is not only allowed but is encouraged to put as many models on the table as he wants to, regardless of what Kevin is doing. The fact that he gave Kevin a sudden death objective actually makes him the player enabling AoS to work in this instance. These arguments attempting to define what a good or bad AoS player is are not only misguided but bad for both the hobby and the community.

The bearded one
23-07-2015, 03:19
Funny read, but not the most relevant example. It's ad absurdum - not every disagreement about balance is because someone is a dick and someone is a hero. Not every player who enjoys a competitive game is a dick, either. Here is another random example:

***

Big Nigel and Wee Bobby decide to have a game of Age of Sigmar. They played a lot of 7th and 8th against one another and thought they'd test out the new rules. They've built up a bit of a rivalry over the years and look forward to adding new stories to the detailed history of their armies.

Both of them play Orcs and Goblins.

Big Nigel puts down 30 Orc Boys, 30 Savage Orc Boys, 30 Black Orcs, 20 Arrer Boys, a giant, three chariots, 10 Savage Orc Boar Boys, an Orc Shaman and an Orc Warboss on a Boar. (126 models)

Wee Bobby responds in turn with 40 Night Goblins, 40 Night Goblins, 40 Goblins, 20 Night Goblin Archers, 1 Giant, 10 Spider Riders, 10 Wolf Riders, 5 Squig Hoppers... (166 models)

Big Nigel declares that he has no more Orcs to put down. He practices his mighty WAAAAGH, looking to gain a bonus during the game, and scares away the pretty lady who was oogling Awesome Kevin at the table one over. Wee Bobby, meanwhile, does some mental arithmetic and realises that he is going to give away Sudden Death.

Wee Bobby: "Ugh, this sucks. I like Goblins but they're as valuable as Orcs now more or less, model wise. If I put down as many Goblins as I used to you easily get sudden death."

Big Nigel: "I guess the game is just balanced that way, now. Goblins get a bonus for being in a horde, right? It'll be fine."

Wee Bobby: "Meh. It's not the same. Screw it, I'll just give you sudden death and see how it goes."

Wee Bobby puts down 40 more Night Goblins, 3 Trolls, 2 Bolt Throwers and a Night Goblin Shaman. He reaches down to his case to grab Skarsnik, the leader of his army since 7th edition...

Big Nigel: "Don't you think that's a bit much? I got sudden death a while ago. Maybe you shouldn't take Skarsnik, it'd be a bit unfair."

Wee Bobby: "I could take all of this before. Skarsnik always leads my army. It's even painted up like his clan."

Big Nigel: "Yeah but I mean... right, fine. Let's just see how it goes."

Awesome Kevin grins cheerily in the background, bellowing to Rick the Dick about how great his dice rolls have been so far, how much fun Age of Sigmar is and how Rick should chill out and realise that the simple act of rolling dice and not trying to treat the game as a competition is the true way to enjoy Warhammer. Rick protests, suggesting that he doesn't like Age of Sigmar's exclusively casual nature, but Awesome Kevin interrupts him with a gleaming smile and insists that opponents just need to talk to one another before the game. Rick needs to stop being so unsociable and super serious. Rick sighs and leaves the shop, frustrated.

Meanwhile, Big Nigel and Wee Bobby have started their game. Big Nigel decided that his sudden death win condition would be assassination, so Wee Bobby picked Skarsnik. He keeps Skarsnik near the back and tries to avoid losing him. The game starts and Wee Bobby makes better decisions than Big Nigel. Wee Bobby also rolls a little over average, which punishes Big Nigel's army even more. Nigel loses a lot of Orcs and Wee Bobby is riding high. Skarsnik manages to kill the Orc Warboss in an epic and closely fought duel, too! Suddenly, though, Big Nigel declares that his Orc Arrer Boys will shoot Skarsnik despite being in melee with the Spider Riders and Squig Hoppers. They deal Skarsnik his final wound and, despite Wee Bobby facing minimal casualties, Big Nigel wins.

Big Nigel chuckles; "Hah! That was lucky!"

Wee Bobby looks annoyed; "That sucked. I was creaming you! I can't believe you can shoot from combat."

Big Nigel: "Yeah that's a bit weird... but I guess it made up for the armies being imbalanced. That's what Sudden Death is for, when someone has a big advantage they get a weakness."

Wee Bobby: "It wasn't unbalanced. If this was 8th ed you had about the same points as I did."

Big Nigel: "You totalled my army. This is a different game, remember. It isn't 8th so those points don't matter."

Wee Bobby: "I totalled your army because you sent 30 Orc Boys and 30 Black Orcs after my 10 Spider Riders and let the rest of my army pick off your battleline. Besides, Goblins are still a lot worse than Orcs. It's not one for one."

Big Nigel: "I did that because I had no chance in beating your battle line 1v1. It worked, it kept my Arrer Boys ignored until the end and they assassinated Skarsnik."

Wee Bobby: "Which is stupid, they were in melee. I know you won the game technically but not really."

Big Nigel: "Not really? Come on, dude. My goal was to kill Skarsnik. Your army was way too powerful to beat you in a square fight. You need to lose a few units for this to be fair."

Wee Bobby: "It -wasn't- unfair on you. It was unfair on me. Besides, how am I supposed to play a Night Goblin horde army if I have to have so few models???"

Awesome Kevin interjects: "Calm man. It's just a game. Just have a laugh and play."

Wee Bobby: "I am calm. I just don't like these rules. I like having a horde army. I shouldn't be punished because my troops aren't as good on a per model basis. And you shouldn't be able to shoot from melee, or into melee."

Awesome Kev: "Just TALK to each other before the game, dude. Socialise. Speak to your opponent and stop being so serious! That will resolve everything, dude. I have a degree in diplomacy, negotiation and arithmetical balancing. Trust me."

Big Nigel: "I also think shooting from combat is silly. And to be honest, we did talk before the game. That's why we're arguing, now."

Wee Bobby: "I miss points. We never argued before, we just made fun of Matt Ward and got on with it. If we thought something was ******** we just accepted it because there was an impartial arbitrator of balance. Even if he was usually wrong."

Big Nigel: "Yeah. I miss Matt Ward too. How weird is it to say that?"

Awesome Kevin: "I love Matt Ward! Codex Grey Knights was awesome."

Wee Bobby: "Is there anything Games Workshop release that you don't like, Kevin?"

Awesome Kevin: "I don't understand the question."

Big Nigel: " ... right, let's grab Rick and get some dinner. Maybe we can get a game of 40k tomorrow."

Wee Bobby: "I heard there's a game like Warhammer, from that company... Mantic? I don't know, we should check it out."

Big Nigel: "Maybe. Cya, Kev! Good luck."

Awesome Kevin chuckles; "I don't need luck, I'm just epic. I am the KEVSTER. I'll see you guys next time you decide to have fun!"

Big Nigel: "KTHX BYE."

***

Awesome Kev might be "awesome", but nobody actually likes him! :P Meanwhile, it seems unlikely that Rick, Nigel or Bobby will be anywhere near as enthusiastic about Age of Sigmar as he is. They may not play it again.

This sounds like dialogue I might hear for real in the local store - except the last bits with awesome kevin maybe. In your average game discussions about the armies having mismatched balance won't be about absurd things like 50 daemon princes, it'll be cases like the orcs vs the goblins, where the players will have different viewpoints about whether the armies are properly balanced or not, or how sudden death is screwing over one of the players despite the armies being pretty even in strength, and players will leave dissatisfied. You can try and talk it over before a game but these are simply situationsnyou won't be able to solve to satisfaction very often. One player might rightfully think it's fair, while from the other player's understandable perspective it isn't.

sephiroth87
23-07-2015, 03:53
I have nothing to add other than I'd really like to see an ongoing series of short stories about Awesome Kevin, Rick the Dick, Wee Bobby, and Big Nigel's adventures in Age of Sigmar.

splash
23-07-2015, 04:07
Here is an example:
...stuff....

Except that The Dick/Nagash couldn't summon skeletons without having skeletons on the table first. So now he's just cheating. Other than that, I'll keep reading everyone else's posts.

Dosiere
23-07-2015, 04:25
Except that The Dick/Nagash couldn't summon skeletons without having skeletons on the table first. So now he's just cheating. Other than that, I'll keep reading everyone else's posts.

I think the intention with these narratives is to assume the are playing AoS RAW and not using houserules.

AngryAngel
23-07-2015, 06:18
Except that The Dick/Nagash couldn't summon skeletons without having skeletons on the table first. So now he's just cheating. Other than that, I'll keep reading everyone else's posts.

Except that is just like, your opinion man. We've gone back and forth and I believe, by rules, you can summon things you don't have on the board. I'm not going to get into the whole fiasco, but you can. You can feel free to disagree, however I will say bashing Itcamefromthedeep and his post for saying it, is beyond wrong.

Mawduce
23-07-2015, 06:31
There is no where in the rules that says you must have an item on the table to be able to summon it. If you bring only Nagash, then by that standard you can only summon other nagash's. You can see where that sounds ridiculous. If you have a model that can summon other models it can summon whatever it damn well pleases. I understand the point of only being able to summon items on the board, don't get me wrong, but that assertion is indeed wrong.

Spiney Norman
23-07-2015, 07:58
I can't say for sure what GW exactly was hoping players would do with AoS, but to me the game is best when played more like this:

Kevin and Rick decide to play a game. Kevin has an idea for a fun game. "I've got some goblins and you've got some empire. How about my goblins try to burn down a village?" Rick and Kevin together pick out some models for both sides, deciding on goblin wolf boys and empire free company. They then together set up a small village and play.

Next time, maybe Rick has a fun idea for a narrative. They again together decide on a story, characters, and put a game together.

The point is, it's not a wargame, it's a 2 player RPG.

Then it's a hilarious failure of concept, I somehow doubt D&D would be as popular as it is if the game was just, 'player a make a character, player b make a character, players a & b kill each other as fast as they can, no GM required'. The whole thing is just manifestly pointless and gives no incentive to bring anything but the most elite unit available to you in the highest quantity you can to avoid the sudden death condition triggering.

Spiney Norman
23-07-2015, 08:07
Except that is just like, your opinion man. We've gone back and forth and I believe, by rules, you can summon things you don't have on the board. I'm not going to get into the whole fiasco, but you can. You can feel free to disagree, however I will say bashing Itcamefromthedeep and his post for saying it, is beyond wrong.

I'm not so sure, I think you can build a coherent case for it being true, but that requires the assumption that the rules are written consistently, which they are obviously not.

There is one summoning spell that clearly states the models does not need to be on the table to summon it, all that is required is that the player owns the model (balewind vortex), no other summon spell contains the 'if the player owns this model' caveat, so it is notably different from every other summoning spell in the game. On the other hand we are never likely to get an FAQ for AoS because GW weren't bothered about putting out a functional game in the first place, I hardly think they're going to bother to go back and fix something like that.

On the other hand you could just use that scroll as 'proof' that spells noted on scrolls count as being 'in play' even if the model on that scrolls is not in play.

Kelesis
23-07-2015, 08:24
There is an easy solution to this discussion. Don't play this stupid "game". End.

Mawduce
23-07-2015, 08:42
Then it's a hilarious failure of concept, I somehow doubt D&D would be as popular as it is if the game was just, 'player a make a character, player b make a character, players a & b kill each other as fast as they can, no GM required'. The whole thing is just manifestly pointless and gives no incentive to bring anything but the most elite unit available to you in the highest quantity you can to avoid the sudden death condition triggering.

Having been on both sides of the dice I can tell you it wouldn't. Players in that game want the struggle. They want the threat of death and failure to be real. Coming out of a battle with 1 HP left, all spells spent, all arrows gone, and swords dulled matters. Having scars and grave wounds with damaged equipment is a plus. Sometimes even dieing to save your friends in that game is a huge deal and well received twist of events. But what mattered most was an even game. If the quest was unwinnable, the odds too stacked against them, the players didn't like the evening. If it was too easy, same thing. People playing games want to know there is an even chance of victory and defeat. It creates the necessary tension required. AoS doesn't bring that tension. Only time I ever saw a game come down to the wire was in a Realms of Conflict bat rep. It was Undead v Sigmarines where the Sigmarine caster won the match with a lucky spell or something. The way it played out told me nothing mattered but that spell. As long as that one thing could happen every turn, nothing else mattered. That isn't fun, that's broken. That's a wizard casting meteor on a city to keep a cult from using the temple for sacrifices and doing that every time and nothing else. All the other party members are gonna get bored and quit the campaign real quick.

duffybear1988
23-07-2015, 09:01
Funny read, but not the most relevant example. It's ad absurdum - not every disagreement about balance is because someone is a dick and someone is a hero. Not every player who enjoys a competitive game is a dick, either. Here is another random example:

***

Big Nigel and Wee Bobby decide to have a game of Age of Sigmar. They played a lot of 7th and 8th against one another and thought they'd test out the new rules. They've built up a bit of a rivalry over the years and look forward to adding new stories to the detailed history of their armies.

Both of them play Orcs and Goblins.

Big Nigel puts down 30 Orc Boys, 30 Savage Orc Boys, 30 Black Orcs, 20 Arrer Boys, a giant, three chariots, 10 Savage Orc Boar Boys, an Orc Shaman and an Orc Warboss on a Boar. (126 models)

Wee Bobby responds in turn with 40 Night Goblins, 40 Night Goblins, 40 Goblins, 20 Night Goblin Archers, 1 Giant, 10 Spider Riders, 10 Wolf Riders, 5 Squig Hoppers... (166 models)

Big Nigel declares that he has no more Orcs to put down. He practices his mighty WAAAAGH, looking to gain a bonus during the game, and scares away the pretty lady who was oogling Awesome Kevin at the table one over. Wee Bobby, meanwhile, does some mental arithmetic and realises that he is going to give away Sudden Death.

Wee Bobby: "Ugh, this sucks. I like Goblins but they're as valuable as Orcs now more or less, model wise. If I put down as many Goblins as I used to you easily get sudden death."

Big Nigel: "I guess the game is just balanced that way, now. Goblins get a bonus for being in a horde, right? It'll be fine."

Wee Bobby: "Meh. It's not the same. Screw it, I'll just give you sudden death and see how it goes."

Wee Bobby puts down 40 more Night Goblins, 3 Trolls, 2 Bolt Throwers and a Night Goblin Shaman. He reaches down to his case to grab Skarsnik, the leader of his army since 7th edition...

Big Nigel: "Don't you think that's a bit much? I got sudden death a while ago. Maybe you shouldn't take Skarsnik, it'd be a bit unfair."

Wee Bobby: "I could take all of this before. Skarsnik always leads my army. It's even painted up like his clan."

Big Nigel: "Yeah but I mean... right, fine. Let's just see how it goes."

Awesome Kevin grins cheerily in the background, bellowing to Rick the Dick about how great his dice rolls have been so far, how much fun Age of Sigmar is and how Rick should chill out and realise that the simple act of rolling dice and not trying to treat the game as a competition is the true way to enjoy Warhammer. Rick protests, suggesting that he doesn't like Age of Sigmar's exclusively casual nature, but Awesome Kevin interrupts him with a gleaming smile and insists that opponents just need to talk to one another before the game. Rick needs to stop being so unsociable and super serious. Rick sighs and leaves the shop, frustrated.

Meanwhile, Big Nigel and Wee Bobby have started their game. Big Nigel decided that his sudden death win condition would be assassination, so Wee Bobby picked Skarsnik. He keeps Skarsnik near the back and tries to avoid losing him. The game starts and Wee Bobby makes better decisions than Big Nigel. Wee Bobby also rolls a little over average, which punishes Big Nigel's army even more. Nigel loses a lot of Orcs and Wee Bobby is riding high. Skarsnik manages to kill the Orc Warboss in an epic and closely fought duel, too! Suddenly, though, Big Nigel declares that his Orc Arrer Boys will shoot Skarsnik despite being in melee with the Spider Riders and Squig Hoppers. They deal Skarsnik his final wound and, despite Wee Bobby facing minimal casualties, Big Nigel wins.

Big Nigel chuckles; "Hah! That was lucky!"

Wee Bobby looks annoyed; "That sucked. I was creaming you! I can't believe you can shoot from combat."

Big Nigel: "Yeah that's a bit weird... but I guess it made up for the armies being imbalanced. That's what Sudden Death is for, when someone has a big advantage they get a weakness."

Wee Bobby: "It wasn't unbalanced. If this was 8th ed you had about the same points as I did."

Big Nigel: "You totalled my army. This is a different game, remember. It isn't 8th so those points don't matter."

Wee Bobby: "I totalled your army because you sent 30 Orc Boys and 30 Black Orcs after my 10 Spider Riders and let the rest of my army pick off your battleline. Besides, Goblins are still a lot worse than Orcs. It's not one for one."

Big Nigel: "I did that because I had no chance in beating your battle line 1v1. It worked, it kept my Arrer Boys ignored until the end and they assassinated Skarsnik."

Wee Bobby: "Which is stupid, they were in melee. I know you won the game technically but not really."

Big Nigel: "Not really? Come on, dude. My goal was to kill Skarsnik. Your army was way too powerful to beat you in a square fight. You need to lose a few units for this to be fair."

Wee Bobby: "It -wasn't- unfair on you. It was unfair on me. Besides, how am I supposed to play a Night Goblin horde army if I have to have so few models???"

Awesome Kevin interjects: "Calm man. It's just a game. Just have a laugh and play."

Wee Bobby: "I am calm. I just don't like these rules. I like having a horde army. I shouldn't be punished because my troops aren't as good on a per model basis. And you shouldn't be able to shoot from melee, or into melee."

Awesome Kev: "Just TALK to each other before the game, dude. Socialise. Speak to your opponent and stop being so serious! That will resolve everything, dude. I have a degree in diplomacy, negotiation and arithmetical balancing. Trust me."

Big Nigel: "I also think shooting from combat is silly. And to be honest, we did talk before the game. That's why we're arguing, now."

Wee Bobby: "I miss points. We never argued before, we just made fun of Matt Ward and got on with it. If we thought something was ******** we just accepted it because there was an impartial arbitrator of balance. Even if he was usually wrong."

Big Nigel: "Yeah. I miss Matt Ward too. How weird is it to say that?"

Awesome Kevin: "I love Matt Ward! Codex Grey Knights was awesome."

Wee Bobby: "Is there anything Games Workshop release that you don't like, Kevin?"

Awesome Kevin: "I don't understand the question."

Big Nigel: " ... right, let's grab Rick and get some dinner. Maybe we can get a game of 40k tomorrow."

Wee Bobby: "I heard there's a game like Warhammer, from that company... Mantic? I don't know, we should check it out."

Big Nigel: "Maybe. Cya, Kev! Good luck."

Awesome Kevin chuckles; "I don't need luck, I'm just epic. I am the KEVSTER. I'll see you guys next time you decide to have fun!"

Big Nigel: "KTHX BYE."

***

Awesome Kev might be "awesome", but nobody actually likes him! :P Meanwhile, it seems unlikely that Rick, Nigel or Bobby will be anywhere near as enthusiastic about Age of Sigmar as he is. They may not play it again.

You are spot on with this post. :yes:

Denny
23-07-2015, 09:05
Still, at least AoS is encouraging people to forge their own narratives.

I'm just a little surprised the heroes and villains of this narrative have names like Kevin, Nigel and Rick. ;)

Astrella
23-07-2015, 09:37
Balance and point costs don't prevent you from having narrative or playing scenarios though.

Spiney Norman
23-07-2015, 09:39
Balance and point costs don't prevent you from having narrative or playing scenarios though.

No, in fact they make designing your own scenarios a million times easier.

ihavetoomuchminis
23-07-2015, 10:31
But it's more cinematic and narrative driven and cool and you have a blast without balance nor list nor points. Because reasons.

Oh, and haters gonna hate too. Yeah.

Holier Than Thou
23-07-2015, 10:37
But it's more cinematic and narrative driven and cool and you have a blast without balance nor list nor points. Because reasons.

Oh, and haters gonna hate too. Yeah.

True dat bro.

El_Commi
23-07-2015, 10:44
Just some random musings.
. Rick, being the dick he is declares “I am playing Death, because I like playing broken armies that don’t run away and can regrow units at will, an
] :)

You know lizards can summon now too? :p

Spiney Norman
23-07-2015, 11:05
You know lizards can summon now too? :p

While that's true a Slann can only summon three units a turn, Nagash can summon at least 8

El_Commi
23-07-2015, 11:19
While that's true a Slann can only summon three units a turn, Nagash can summon at least 8

Take more Slann... :p


Truth be told. I don't own Nagash, my chief opponent owns Lord Kroak... In 8th I'd win games hands down, even taking poor lists/not summoning. In AoS... its a lot closer - I'm winning because my oppoent makes glaringly bad mistakes. The biggest problem we have is working out how the hell we can create balanced lists.

On paper we can work out Grave guard are roughly equal to temple guard and so on. But.. what happens after the 5th game where I've won, and he thinks that even though the lists are even, mine is stronger than his and game 6 is started with a long discussion about stuff not being balanced (This is on the cards for us I think..)
That's the real worry I have.

All the talk about summons and sudden death is grand, if a little hyperbolic. Summoned units count towards your army % for victory and so on. (Caveat, don't play with dicks)

The real issue is, how do I know if my friend and I are evenly matched. What about my brother, who really only jsut started 8th with Chaos a few weeks before AoS. He's loving AoS... but he doesn't know his own army, let alone others. How do we work out what he can field to make it even.. In practise, we haven't hit that stage yet. But in 2 months time if we can't build a balanced list what then?
At the minute, we're talking about playing a campaign and seeing how it goes. AoS seems better fit for that. (Shorter games = more games in a night.. no more 1 game in 3-4 hours..)
What about the models I have that he has no equivilent for just yet? Do I just not field a Terrageist? How many skinks are worth a terrageist and so on..



As an aside, does it say in the AoS rules that a 1 is an auto fail? I looked but couldn't spot it. If it doesn't, then it's possible to never fail certain rolls with the right buffs. Given modifiers add to the dice role... Making a rolled 1 a two or three... and so on.

ihavetoomuchminis
23-07-2015, 11:35
That's a good point.

How can i know if i lost because of my army composition or because of my playing and/or dice rolls?

How can a player improve if he doesn't know the reasons why he loses or wins?

How can i decide what to purchase/paint next if i don't know if my opponent or myself will find it fair?

What's the point in playing a game where i just can't know whats going on, if i'm doing good or bad, if my opponent's a dick or not....etc..?

Holier Than Thou
23-07-2015, 11:42
That's a good point.

How can i know if i lost because of my army composition or because of my playing and/or dice rolls?

How can a player improve if he doesn't know the reasons why he loses or wins?

How can i decide what to purchase/paint next if i don't know if my opponent or myself will find it fair?

What's the point in playing a game where i just can't know whats going on, if i'm doing good or bad, if my opponent's a dick or not....etc..?

For the narrative, non-competitive super-smiley happy fun.

T10
23-07-2015, 11:45
Still, at least AoS is encouraging people to forge their own narratives.

I'm just a little surprised the heroes and villains of this narrative have names like Kevin, Nigel and Rick. ;)

Since AoS is considered a game for little girls? :)

-T10

Buddy Bear
23-07-2015, 11:46
I'm forging a narrative as we speak. One where I'll keep playing 8th or switch to Kings of War, and won't ever spend a dime on Age of Sigmar. I wonder what GW thinks of the narrative I'm forging?

Holier Than Thou
23-07-2015, 11:49
Since AoS is consi. dered a game for little girls? :)

-T10

Come now, little boys can enjoy it too

Holier Than Thou
23-07-2015, 11:50
I'm forging a narrative as we speak. One where I'll keep playing 8th or switch to Kings of War, and won't ever spend a dime on Age of Sigmar. I wonder what GW thinks of the narrative I'm forging?
I think that will be a very common narattive.

El_Commi
23-07-2015, 12:01
That's a good point.

How can i know if i lost because of my army composition or because of my playing and/or dice rolls?

How can a player improve if he doesn't know the reasons why he loses or wins?

How can i decide what to purchase/paint next if i don't know if my opponent or myself will find it fair?

What's the point in playing a game where i just can't know whats going on, if i'm doing good or bad, if my opponent's a dick or not....etc..?

Exactly.
We tried a game, I used Felbats spirit hosts and batswarms. Two units of 3 bats. Two units of 2 bat swarms. One unit of 4 spirit hosts and a vampire with 10 grave guard.

Against, 1 unit of 4 terradons, and 4 units of 5 chamelion skinks and a skink priest and 20 skinks with handweapons

We gauged that that was roughly equal.

As per Chamelion skink rules, he kept them off the table. He moved first. My felbats and spirit host charged in. And wiped out his skinks. Skink priest was just out of reach. My friend dropped two units of 5 chamelions behind my Vampire, (who barely survived) before getting mown down in 1 turn by a counter charge.
He called the game there in turn two as he had half his force gone and I had yet to lose a model.

Was my list too strong? Was his too weak? Or was it awful play. Personally I think it was awful play on his part; he went first and should have been able, with the right positioning of skinks, wreck half my army. But.. hes a returning player and not overly strong in tactics. In days gone by, we'd agree I outplayed him (Even if he disagreeed with some rules in 8th and complained about hexwraiths nonstop), and he need to bring a stronger list. But points cost meant we could agree forces were roughly equal.

Now... if I beat him with the same army 5/5 games.. is it because I played better, or did we gauge armies badly?
I play dnd, and GM our games. We're no strangers to houseruling stuff. Summons and what not.

But.. making lists, even if we try super hard. There'll always be those questions

*edit*
Forthose not in the know.
Chamelion skinks can basically teleport around the map. In hero phase you remove them from board. In movement phase you can deploy them anywhere.

Denny
23-07-2015, 12:06
Since AoS is considered a game for little girls? :)

More like I'm starting to think AoS is actually some kind of super-meta-narrative-forging game rather than a tabletop battle game.

Gamers aren't just creating a character to lead an armies, but also a player who controls that army, and opponent for him to battle, two other gamers battling on another table in a fictitious venue, and even a love interest in the form of a hot single mum.

. . . Oh my god, what if I'm just made up too? :eek:

Borri
23-07-2015, 12:23
This is my favourite Age of Sigmar thread so far. Hilarious!

This narrative forging stuff...pretending that AoS is so superior because there are no rules is the flimsiest argument yet. I am increasingly of the opinion that AoS appeals to two types of gamers 1)people who have invested so much hobby time/money in it that they can't/won't see these massive gaping holes and will support anything GW does and 2) people that like to have an easy excuse when they lose - if we have no idea of what's fair you can justify any outcome to the game. Who knows if you played well or badly? Who knows what to learn from in the game? Who cares about army selection at all? Just bring as much good stuff as you like and fill the table with it. Bah. Money is the balancing factor. The person who has the money to buy 7 nagashes wins. Period. Fun fun fun!

Corax
23-07-2015, 12:33
The person who has the money to buy 7 nagashes wins.

I wonder how many Nagashes are required to get a rank bonus?

MOMUS
23-07-2015, 12:35
3. The people that played through 8th, found and ironed out it's inconsistencies and errors, created their own community and FAQ/errata and wish to do the same with AoS.

Shandor
23-07-2015, 12:45
I think i should start to Sell my own Board game.. without rules. You can buy the Board and some Figures and you figure out how to play it yourselve! Thats so cool. No evil Rules tells you how to play this game. You can set up everything on your own. Thats the Ultimative freedom for Board Game players.
I will be rich! :)

Herzlos
23-07-2015, 12:46
…Rick wins the roll and says “I will deploy this battle scroll that I have for 5 Black knights!” Rick deploys a unit of 5 Black Knights on his half of the table.
Kevin looks at his Battle Scrolls and into his box of models and decides a good counter unit for the Black Knights is a unit of Cav of his own.


That only works if Kevin has sufficient models with him to counter whatever Rick pulls out of the bag. If they want completely different sized games it'll be hard to negotiate that in advanced compared to starting with "I've only got 1500pts with me". If Kevin is new, Rick will probably destroy him in game after game, because he'll have many more options with no balancing factor. If Rick is also new, he'll have no idea what he should be fielding to ensure Kevin doesn't get annihilated.

ihavetoomuchminis
23-07-2015, 12:46
I think i should start to Sell my own Board game.. without rules. You can buy the Board and some Figures and you figure out how to play it yourselve! Thats so cool. No evil Rules tells you how to play this game. You can set up everything on your own. Thats the Ultimative freedom for Board Game players.
I will be rich! :)

As long as you stick a GW logo on it, sure.

Shandor
23-07-2015, 12:50
As long as you stick a GW logo on it, sure.

How about Games Orkshop? :)

HelloKitty
23-07-2015, 12:52
3. The people that played through 8th, found and ironed out it's inconsistencies and errors, created their own community and FAQ/errata and wish to do the same with AoS.

^^^ this right here is where I am at.

Borri
23-07-2015, 12:53
I'm only going to play games of Age of Sigmar at my house, so I can use my whole collection and my opponents can only use what they can carry (Deep Strategy). I think I have two nagashes which will work perfectly with my Dwarf army (what an awesome narrative!!).

Griefbringer
23-07-2015, 12:54
Out of curiosity, what models that soccer mom bought for her son (the one that spends most of his time with his dad)?

Holier Than Thou
23-07-2015, 12:57
Sorry Shandor, I've got you beat. My new game is 'IMAGINATIONWARS', players pay me a small sum (let's say £20)and I let them create any kind of battle they desire. No boards or miniatures needed so it keeps my manufacturing costs down but still has potential to release expansion ideas where, for an additional £10 I will tell players what imaginary warriors to fight their imaginary wars with. Then I could release merchandise like t-shirts, these will be plain white and you just imagine what's on them.

Borri
23-07-2015, 12:58
^^^ this right here is where I am at.
All joking aside, I do respect you guys who want to make this into something good. I hear you.

However...I just wish everyone would pick a new system and company and make that a success so that this idiocy gets punished with poor sales and is acknowledged a failure so that no company ever tries this again. Rewarding GW with your labour on their behalf is just enabling them :)

Shandor
23-07-2015, 13:08
Sorry Shandor, I've got you beat. My new game is 'IMAGINATIONWARS', players pay me a small sum (let's say £20)and I let them create any kind of battle they desire. No boards or miniatures needed so it keeps my manufacturing costs down but still has potential to release expansion ideas where, for an additional £10 I will tell players what imaginary warriors to fight their imaginary wars with. Then I could release merchandise like t-shirts, these will be plain white and you just imagine what's on them.

Wow that would be a Fair game for Fun players! Shutup and take my money! :p

MOMUS
23-07-2015, 13:08
All joking aside, I do respect you guys who want to make this into something good. I hear you.

However...I just wish everyone would pick a new system and company and make that a success so that this idiocy gets punished with poor sales and is acknowledged a failure so that no company ever tries this again. Rewarding GW with your labour on their behalf is just enabling them :)

Was 8th an acknowledged failure? Because playing it competitively straight out of the box was not enjoyable. The UK and US tournamnet circuits used various heavy comp packs and an independant FAQ.
ETC rules were widly different from the rulebook, so how is this different from the situation with AoS?

Spiney Norman
23-07-2015, 13:16
Sorry Shandor, I've got you beat. My new game is 'IMAGINATIONWARS', players pay me a small sum (let's say £20)and I let them create any kind of battle they desire. No boards or miniatures needed so it keeps my manufacturing costs down but still has potential to release expansion ideas where, for an additional £10 I will tell players what imaginary warriors to fight their imaginary wars with. Then I could release merchandise like t-shirts, these will be plain white and you just imagine what's on them.

While this is intended as a joke, it's not a place GW are really that far from, take the rules away from a game and just leave the toy soldiers, the next obvious step is to take the soldiers away as well. My guess is this is exactly where GW will end up when 3D printing catches up in terms of quality, they'll just sell 'print-your-own' models for twice what they currently charge for the physical models they sell and then the end of the world will happen.


Was 8th an acknowledged failure? Because playing it competitively straight out of the box was not enjoyable. The UK and US tournamnet circuits used various heavy comp packs and an independant FAQ.
ETC rules were widly different from the rulebook, so how is this different from the situation with AoS?

8th edition did at least give us something reasonably functional to work with even if it needed a little tweaking, there is a lot more work involved in getting AoS to a playable state, if you're going to calculate and play test a points cost system for a game from scratch you might as well just design your own game for wfb models, there wouldn't be that much more work involved at all.

Shifte
23-07-2015, 13:26
I get the impression that Awesome Kevin is made of resin.

Herzlos
23-07-2015, 13:32
All joking aside, I do respect you guys who want to make this into something good. I hear you.

However...I just wish everyone would pick a new system and company and make that a success so that this idiocy gets punished with poor sales and is acknowledged a failure so that no company ever tries this again. Rewarding GW with your labour on their behalf is just enabling them :)

It must be gutting for smaller rules writers to see the amount of effort groups are making to restore broken rules, instead of just moving onto something better, all because the first set has a logo on it.

If AoS was a set of rules produced by Avatars of War (for example, because they make fantasy stuff, I don't know if they have rules) to sell their range, it'd have been laughed out of the store and forgotten about already. Because it's made by GW, lots of players seem desperate to make them work.

Holier Than Thou
23-07-2015, 13:35
And in many cases, unwilling to even admit their is a problem with them.

Malagor
23-07-2015, 13:37
If AoS was a set of rules produced by Avatars of War (for example, because they make fantasy stuff, I don't know if they have rules) to sell their range, it'd have been laughed out of the store and forgotten about already. Because it's made by GW, lots of players seem desperate to make them work.
They do have rules actually.

Spiney Norman
23-07-2015, 13:38
It must be gutting for smaller rules writers to see the amount of effort groups are making to restore broken rules, instead of just moving onto something better, all because the first set has a logo on it.

If AoS was a set of rules produced by Avatars of War (for example, because they make fantasy stuff, I don't know if they have rules) to sell their range, it'd have been laughed out of the store and forgotten about already. Because it's made by GW, lots of players seem desperate to make them work.

That doesn't seem wholey unreasonable, I'd be prepared to put some effort in to make AoS work because I like the models GW have made and since I'm buying the models to paint them up anyway I don't lose anything by modding a free rules set to get some additional use out of them. It's noteworthy that GW are selling models, not rules, the rules come free.

I am however unwilling to put in quite the amount of time and effort AoS needs to be playable, which almost equates to a ground-up re-write.

MOMUS
23-07-2015, 13:54
8th edition did at least give us something reasonably functional to work with even if it needed a little tweaking, there is a lot more work involved in getting AoS to a playable state, if you're going to calculate and play test a points cost system for a game from scratch you might as well just design your own game for wfb models, there wouldn't be that much more work involved at all.

Swedish comp took a lot of work (LOADS), but It happened. People used it, it developed throughout 8th and became internationally recognised as a fair(er) balancing system than what GW gave us.

El_Commi
23-07-2015, 14:02
Seriously though.. Rolling 1's.
RAW they can be a success.. I checked again and can't see it written that 1's are a auto fail. I must be missing it.
Because I can totally see instances where models can get +3 to hit/wound. In which case, there's no point rolling.. Because you add the modifiers to the dice roll instead of modifing the required roll. Meaning that no matter what you roll, you're gettng a minimum of 4+.

That to me seems a bit...
I mean.. especially on a shooty unit just have them close to the target unit and guarantee wounds. :|

itcamefromthedeep
23-07-2015, 14:09
Except that The Dick/Nagash couldn't summon skeletons without having skeletons on the table first. So now he's just cheating. Other than that, I'll keep reading everyone else's posts.
So I can only summon Tetto'eko if I have another Tetto'eko on the table?

Regardless of what you think of RAW, it sure looks like the intent was that you could only have one of each special character, which means they intended for you to be able to summon a model even when there are no examples of it on the table yet. Since the rules as written are at the very least ambiguous (the "a model needs to be on the table to have its abilities" rule isn't there) and the intent breaks dramatically one way rather than the other, It's quite the Dick move to call that cheating.

HelloKitty
23-07-2015, 14:11
It must be gutting for smaller rules writers to see the amount of effort groups are making to restore broken rules, instead of just moving onto something better, all because the first set has a logo on it.

I don't think its necessarily that it has a GW logo on it, I think its that quality of rules really don't matter to a lot of people compared with ease of finding a game.

These other games may have infinitely better rules but no one will pick it up because they have no one to play with, but they know that they can get a fantasy or 40k game in easily. Its a self sustaining cycle - I have a dozen games on my bookshelf I can't find players for even though the games are themselves solid.

Holier Than Thou
23-07-2015, 14:20
I don't think its necessarily that it has a GW logo on it, I think its that quality of rules really don't matter to a lot of people compared with ease of finding a game.

These other games may have infinitely better rules but no one will pick it up because they have no one to play with, but they know that they can get a fantasy or 40k game in easily. Its a self sustaining cycle - I have a dozen games on my bookshelf I can't find players for even though the games are themselves solid.

I think it's 100% because it has the GW logo. What you describe is somebody thinking "That's a great game but nobody I know plays it. Instead I'll pick this massively inferior game and have a thoroughly miserable time playing it but at least other people might do the same."
Surely a better idea would be to get the better game and introduce other people to it, thus creating a group who do play the better game and so a better time is had by all.
Sure

HelloKitty
23-07-2015, 14:24
I think it's 100% because it has the GW logo. What you describe is somebody thinking "That's a great game but nobody I know plays it. Instead I'll pick this massively inferior game and have a thoroughly miserable time playing it but at least other people might do the same."
Surely a better idea would be to get the better game and introduce other people to it, thus creating a group who do play the better game and so a better time is had by all.
Sure

A thought process spoken or written many times over the years, and many have tried, and few have succeeded. This past year alone we tried getting dreadball and Drop Zone running. Lot of guys liked it, but none would buy it because they didn't want to buy into a game that they figured no one else would play. They were waiting for the other guys to drop money first. It was a giant circle.

And now I have those games on my shelves as well despite how great they are and after a several month endeavor of trying to get people sold on it to add it to our list of activities.

Denny
23-07-2015, 14:36
A thought process spoken or written many times over the years, and many have tried, and few have succeeded. This past year alone we tried getting dreadball and Drop Zone running. Lot of guys liked it, but none would buy it because they didn't want to buy into a game that they figured no one else would play. They were waiting for the other guys to drop money first. It was a giant circle.

And now I have those games on my shelves as well despite how great they are and after a several month endeavor of trying to get people sold on it to add it to our list of activities.

I still have my box of Deadzone. I thought it looked really interesting, but couldn't get anyone to bite.

GrandmasterWang
23-07-2015, 14:58
I want more Kevin and Rick tales in this thread. There are like 50 other threads for pointless bickering.

How does one do the coloured text thing anyway or is that pc only?

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk

Xerkics
23-07-2015, 15:49
I get the impression that Awesome Kevin is made of resin.

More like Citadel Finecast :)

some_scrub
23-07-2015, 17:06
That only works if Kevin has sufficient models with him to counter whatever Rick pulls out of the bag. If they want completely different sized games it'll be hard to negotiate that in advanced compared to starting with "I've only got 1500pts with me". If Kevin is new, Rick will probably destroy him in game after game, because he'll have many more options with no balancing factor. If Rick is also new, he'll have no idea what he should be fielding to ensure Kevin doesn't get annihilated.

This is actually what happens if someone plays AoS and tries to win.

SuperHappyTime
23-07-2015, 17:38
Wounds Balance is one of the most retarded means of balancing though. An Empire General and 11 Halberdiers is never going to equal Nagash.

Spiney Norman
23-07-2015, 17:46
Wounds Balance is one of the most retarded means of balancing though. An Empire General and 11 Halberdiers is never going to equal Nagash.

That's true, principally because summoning is a huge problem in AoS, however 'wounds balance' is infinitely superior to 'model' balance where Nagash is apparently equal to a single Skaven slave.

As long as you're not expecting perfect balance, counting wounds does give you a very rough indication of equivalent power, as a rough guideline I would multiply the 'wounds' value of a caster by the number of spells it can cast per turn, and then double it again if that caster can use summon spells.

Morathi's Darkest Sin
23-07-2015, 17:59
Or don't use summoning, or restrict it to armies that could before in some manner.. that's what I'll be looking to do. We already measure from the bases, and allow models within 2" of bases in combat to fight, just some minor changes to make things run smoother.

Although to be fair doctoring systems is nothing new here, I had two Mordheim warbands of my own making, probably added at least three types to each of the standard gangs, and made up loads of extra hired swords, even a couple of additional rules. Hell in Blood Bowl, I have brought back loads of extra player positions as well, for example I think my Chaos team has fourteen position types they can pick from if I recall correctly and about twenty more Star Player skills/mutations.

If I make anything too overpowered, it gets doctored back down. Trial and error. :)

AngryAngel
23-07-2015, 19:08
More like I'm starting to think AoS is actually some kind of super-meta-narrative-forging game rather than a tabletop battle game.

Gamers aren't just creating a character to lead an armies, but also a player who controls that army, and opponent for him to battle, two other gamers battling on another table in a fictitious venue, and even a love interest in the form of a hot single mum.

. . . Oh my god, what if I'm just made up too? :eek:

That is about the size of it, I want to hear more about the hot mom, her leisure activities, sizes, you know, all the important things.



This is my favourite Age of Sigmar thread so far. Hilarious!

This narrative forging stuff...pretending that AoS is so superior because there are no rules is the flimsiest argument yet. I am increasingly of the opinion that AoS appeals to two types of gamers 1)people who have invested so much hobby time/money in it that they can't/won't see these massive gaping holes and will support anything GW does and 2) people that like to have an easy excuse when they lose - if we have no idea of what's fair you can justify any outcome to the game. Who knows if you played well or badly? Who knows what to learn from in the game? Who cares about army selection at all? Just bring as much good stuff as you like and fill the table with it. Bah. Money is the balancing factor. The person who has the money to buy 7 nagashes wins. Period. Fun fun fun!

I'm starting to see a certain Nagash sized focus for some of these comments.



Out of curiosity, what models that soccer mom bought for her son (the one that spends most of his time with his dad)?

Also curious, were they 40k or Fantasy even ?



All joking aside, I do respect you guys who want to make this into something good. I hear you.

However...I just wish everyone would pick a new system and company and make that a success so that this idiocy gets punished with poor sales and is acknowledged a failure so that no company ever tries this again. Rewarding GW with your labour on their behalf is just enabling them :)

It ends up being brand loyalty, to stop feeding the beast that is GW, you might be getting no games. Some groups literally don't branch out to other games, mine does, but many others do not, as kitty will tell you.



That doesn't seem wholey unreasonable, I'd be prepared to put some effort in to make AoS work because I like the models GW have made and since I'm buying the models to paint them up anyway I don't lose anything by modding a free rules set to get some additional use out of them. It's noteworthy that GW are selling models, not rules, the rules come free.

I am however unwilling to put in quite the amount of time and effort AoS needs to be playable, which almost equates to a ground-up re-write.

They give out poor rules free, I'm willing to bet if they put out balancing rules, they will cost a healthy amount. I'd love to be wrong, and I might be in even thinking they will ever balance their game at all.


Swedish comp took a lot of work (LOADS), but It happened. People used it, it developed throughout 8th and became internationally recognised as a fair(er) balancing system than what GW gave us.

And ? That isn't a reason for GW to give us no way to balance. If tournaments would put extra work into AoS rules, that is a given, but at least make it workable out of box with some idea of balance for those who don't live the game.



Seriously though.. Rolling 1's.
RAW they can be a success.. I checked again and can't see it written that 1's are a auto fail. I must be missing it.
Because I can totally see instances where models can get +3 to hit/wound. In which case, there's no point rolling.. Because you add the modifiers to the dice roll instead of modifing the required roll. Meaning that no matter what you roll, you're gettng a minimum of 4+.

That to me seems a bit...
I mean.. especially on a shooty unit just have them close to the target unit and guarantee wounds. :|

I think its completely working as desired. It is all about stacking combos to make power wins now. I'm sure we'll only see more as the releases flow out.


I don't think its necessarily that it has a GW logo on it, I think its that quality of rules really don't matter to a lot of people compared with ease of finding a game.

These other games may have infinitely better rules but no one will pick it up because they have no one to play with, but they know that they can get a fantasy or 40k game in easily. Its a self sustaining cycle - I have a dozen games on my bookshelf I can't find players for even though the games are themselves solid.

Which is what I thought and have heard you say a time or two.



Wounds Balance is one of the most retarded means of balancing though. An Empire General and 11 Halberdiers is never going to equal Nagash.

I don't know, I think their bravery, and spirit, far out scales Nagash.



That's true, principally because summoning is a huge problem in AoS, however 'wounds balance' is infinitely superior to 'model' balance where Nagash is apparently equal to a single Skaven slave.

As long as you're not expecting perfect balance, counting wounds does give you a very rough indication of equivalent power, as a rough guideline I would multiply the 'wounds' value of a caster by the number of spells it can cast per turn, and then double it again if that caster can use summon spells.

Wound count is better then model count, but still pretty poor. However model count is still used for sudden death, it is quite an exciting journey.

El_Commi
23-07-2015, 19:26
I think its completely working as desired. It is all about stacking combos to make power wins now. I'm sure we'll only see more as the releases flow.

I can see that to an extent. But I'm thinking of zombies, it's relatively easy to get them to a 2+, with a necro and a vampire, they can effectively have 4 attacks, (vamps gives +1 attack, necro lets them make an attack and pile a second time in one phase)
With the right buffs, you'll just be handing your opponent 120 dice and telling them to make saves...

AngryAngel
23-07-2015, 19:39
As a long time fan of zombies, I like that. It does sound crazy, but perhaps those combos are how to make horde units work ? As is elite multi wound units out perform single wound mob type units so, perhaps that stacking of skills is a purposeful design process to make hordes work when points and balancing for army lists no longer exists. Just a thought with that but I could see them putting it together that way.

SuperHappyTime
23-07-2015, 19:39
That's true, principally because summoning is a huge problem in AoS, however 'wounds balance' is infinitely superior to 'model' balance where Nagash is apparently equal to a single Skaven slave.

As long as you're not expecting perfect balance, counting wounds does give you a very rough indication of equivalent power, as a rough guideline I would multiply the 'wounds' value of a caster by the number of spells it can cast per turn, and then double it again if that caster can use summon spells.

Retarded argument I'm going to make here: Based on AoS's "Put down whatever you want" rules and not rules designed to play a balanced game, summoning is fine, since you're going to shove everything on the table anyway.

Overtninja
23-07-2015, 19:49
You have to build your entire army around the zombies for it to work - and have literally hundreds of zombies handy to field on the table. It's a cool, thematic army - but it can be defeated by summoning, any movement-blocking terrain, chaff of varying sorts, and the like. It's also vulnerable to flying assassin units to come murder your summoners, ranged attacks to do the same, and a few other things.

I do agree that AoS is all about creating potency through combined, stacking buffs - the Khorne force in the starter box evidences this well, as does a perusal of the rules for existing armies - all of them are built on creating sets of mutually-buffing units. This preserves part of the fun of list-building (engineering really potent combinations of units that present great difficulty for your opponent), with the major difference that now every army can actually do this sort of thing in different ways. The actual strategic interest of the game can come from here - as well as the interplay between trying to field these combinations in the face of your opponent's attempt to do the same, while also attempting to foil each other's choices and disrupt their plans as they unfold.

Then you get to shove things around and roll dice and laugh at the dreadful misfortune of each other's armies. :p

AngryAngel
23-07-2015, 20:08
Well, I do have hundreds of zombies !! I'm not saying its a good implementation but for fluff driven games it does make zombies more potent then I've seen them in warhammer like, ever. It doesn't end up working perfectly but I think that was part of their arm, keep it loose, give the armies all some synergy and make them more fluid and moving. Lots of problems, but I see what they attempted, I wonder if they'll ever tack it down however.

El_Commi
23-07-2015, 20:13
You have to build your entire army around the zombies for it to work - and have literally hundreds of zombies handy to field on the table.

Off the top of my head: with 30 zombies, 1 necro, 1 vampire and a corpse cart.
You get a potential 60 attacks 2+/2+, with a second pile in phase for another 60 attacks. (The trick is getting enough zombies into range. Harder than you think!)

Secondly, zombies have a rule that if they're within 3" (I think) they can merge together. Take a second necro and summon zombies to keep the unit above 30.

Then throw in a unit or two that adds +1/+1 and no need to dice roll. Just count zombies in range and off you go.


I get that its fluffy etc and zombies are awful and the opponent will probably win base on model % lost.
But I'm sure there's a combo thats even stronger. I went with zombies cause thats the one I know. But imagine flying sigmarines or something equally nasty.

Why go with rerolling 1's, if you can skip the rolls entirely :p

Overtninja
23-07-2015, 20:28
You can throw some Morghasts or whatever, they give +1 to hit. I can't think of anything else in the VC force that does, though. The best you can get with zombies to my knowledge is +2/+3 - which is gross, but requires a comprehensive, whole-army effort to achieve, made of various parts that can be picked off. It's a sound strategy, but it's not unbeatable. Hell, the zombie horde can be defeated by a rock or house if they can't path effectively around it - and their movement stat is pretty bad, so there's that to consider also.

Also, even if you do get the zombies hitting and wounding at that level, this doesn't happen in a vacuum - it's likely the other side has engineered their army, seeing the components for a zombie horde list assembling across the field from them, with the pieces necessary to counter said army composition. Things like character killers, mage hunters, chaff, and possibly buffing/debuffing to adjust the hit/wound numbers of the zombies, or buff the armor of whatever defends against them to a degree where they could, conceivably, auto-pass their armor saves! ;p

thesoundofmusica
23-07-2015, 20:52
According to this thread you can make a zombie horde that will kill anything. Just boost it with characters.
And then right above is a thread claiming that characters just die to shooting.
I'm not sure what to think.

Edit: Overtninja said it already :P

El_Commi
23-07-2015, 21:09
You can throw some Morghasts or whatever, they give +1 to hit. I can't think of anything else in the VC force that does, though. The best you can get with zombies to my knowledge is +2/+3 - which is gross, but requires a comprehensive, whole-army effort to achieve, made of various parts that can be picked off. It's a sound strategy, but it's not unbeatable. Hell, the zombie horde can be defeated by a rock or house if they can't path effectively around it - and their movement stat is pretty bad, so there's that to consider also.


I thought with corpse cart is was 2/2, jsut checked, you're right it is 2/3 with cart and everything else I listed.

And to be honest, 30 zombies, 2 heros and one cart... isn't a big army. Give the vampire wings, add some bat swarms and stick the necro next to the zombies. Vampire becomes really mobile, nerco gets a 50% chance to look out sir, with -1 to being shot at due to bat swarms.
Then you can throw in whatever else you want to fill out the army. An unkillable zombie horde that auto hits.. is terrifying.
But I'm more concerned with some of the scarier armies can do. Lizardmen probably have some ridiculous stuff going on..

Galain
23-07-2015, 21:14
Swedish comp took a lot of work (LOADS), but It happened. People used it, it developed throughout 8th and became internationally recognised as a fair(er) balancing system than what GW gave us.

The Swedish comp guys took one look at AoS, threw their hands up in the air, and said "Screw it, we're sticking to 8th."

That should give you an idea of how much more broken and unplayable AoS is to 8th. And this is speaking as someone who stopped playing because of 8th.

itcamefromthedeep
23-07-2015, 21:20
I'm starting to see a certain Nagash sized focus for some of these comments.As a proud owner of one of the old Giant Death Clown minis I always look for ways to field the model. I still intend to use it in an AoS game. The only question is how I can actually accomplish that and still make for an entertaining game.

One of the problems is that even without summoning anything the model is way more powerful than an Empire General and 11 Halberdiers. 3+ save turns into 2+ with Mystic shield, and he hands out re-rolls on 1s. The model's offensive output on a per-Wound basis is also potent.

Nagash is something of a singularity for this game. It's an example where the normal rules either cease to apply or start to work strangely.

---

There's a way to add 1 to wound against a target unit with a Skaven Plague Priest I think. I'm not sure about generic bonuses to hit.

Spiney Norman
23-07-2015, 21:26
Retarded argument I'm going to make here: Based on AoS's "Put down whatever you want" rules and not rules designed to play a balanced game, summoning is fine, since you're going to shove everything on the table anyway.

That is a rtarded argument, since what summoning actually does is allow you to overwhelm your opponent with overpowering numbers and yet avoid triggering the instant death condition for your opponent.

Poncho160
23-07-2015, 21:28
As a proud owner of one of the old Giant Death Clown minis I always look for ways to field the model. I still intend to use it in an AoS game. The only question is how I can actually accomplish that and still make for an entertaining game.

One of the problems is that even without summoning anything the model is way more powerful than an Empire General and 11 Halberdiers. 3+ save turns into 2+ with Mystic shield, and he hands out re-rolls on 1s. The model's offensive output on a per-Wound basis is also potent.

Nagash is something of a singularity for this game. It's an example where the normal rules either cease to apply or start to work strangely.

---

There's a way to add 1 to wound against a target unit with a Skaven Plague Priest I think. I'm not sure about generic bonuses to hit.

Me and some mates did some maths and have put a figure of Nagash costing 442 points. 11 Halberdiers and a general cost 153 points on the other hand! lol

Griefbringer
23-07-2015, 21:41
That is about the size of it, I want to hear more about the hot mom, her leisure activities, sizes, you know, all the important things.


Looks like I managed to find out a bit more information about what happened with her afterwards. Keep on reading...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

After getting a bit upset from Big Nigel's loud and perfectly orcy yelling at the Art of War store, Soccer Mom decides to pick up a box of the Stormcast Eternal Liberators for her son, Little Danny. Anyway, it is soon time to pick up Danny from her ex-husband, Daddy Cool, for the weekend and she wants to make it to his house before the rush hour.

After an uneventful half hour drive she arrives at Daddy Cool's house, where her ex-husband is busy repairing the fence at the front of the house.

Soccer Mom: Hi again! I came to pick up Danny for the weekend. Where is he?

Daddy Cool: Danny is at his new friend, Tommy Taylor. He should be back in [takes a look at his cool watch] half an hour. I didn't think that you would be coming this early.

Soccer Mom: Well, I was doing some shopping at the Art of War, but the atmosphere there started getting a bit noisy, so I departed early. But I still picked a new box of figures for Danny, he will be surely excited.

Daddy Cool: Is that for the new game you bought for him the last time he was visiting you, two weeks back or so? What was the name?

Soccer Mom: It is called Age of Sigmar, and yes these are extra models for it.

Daddy Cool: Sigmar? Wasn't that one of the lost Primarchs?

Soccer Mom: No, you should not believe everything that people write at that Whineseer 40K fluff forum. He is a sort of a God-King in a fantasy setting...

Daddy Cool: And the game is like about him going on a great crusade or something?

Soccer Mom: I was reading the fluff to Danny while he was glueing the models from the starter set together - that went quite well for him, though there was not much posing that could be done - and the game is actually not about Sigmar himself, but about his loyal followers, who go around smiting his enemies. Anyway, it was just released a couple of weeks ago.

Daddy Cool: So you think it is easy enough for Danny? Are there likely to be lots of other people for him to play it with?

Soccer Mom: At least at the Art of War there were four people playing it today, with lots of models on the table. They were actually the ones making quite a bit of noise - or at least the orcy one. The rest were more tactful, especially the one that was looking like a Bloodbowl Star Player...

Daddy Cool: Bloodbowl? That game would have been so much better if it would have featured some Marines...

Soccer Mom: You never really got Bloodbowl, even when we were still married. Anyway, this new Sigmar game should interest you, since it has sort of marines on it. Though they are not exactly called marines, but something more complex. Trademark stuff, I guess - or that is what our legal expert at work said when I mentioned those funny names to him during the coffee break last week.

Daddy Cool: So like Sigmar marines? What else does it have?

Soccer Mom: There are also these Khorne dudes that came in the box, they are called Bloodskullinators or something like that, some trademark thingy again I guess. Look, I will help Danny to assemble the rest of the figures during the weekend, and then I will bring them and the rules with him next week, so he can introduce the game to you - and maybe also to some of his friends here, like the one that you mentioned. Was it Tom?

Daddy Cool: Tommy. Tommy Taylor. If it is a fantasy game, he could be interested. His father is some sort of fantasy author - wizards and stuff - so the boy is really keen on all sorts of fantasy stuff. Anyway, I guess those Khorne dudes don't have wizards with them. Anyway, how many figures are there in the box?

Soccer Mom: There was something like 40-50 figures for the two sides together, should be enough for initial games until Danny really grasps the rules. And as I said, I bought some extra figures already on his request.

Daddy Cool: Sounds like a reasonable number of figures, maybe we could also try painting a couple of them. Are the sides equal in points values?

Soccer Mom: Well, actually this game does not use point values, so you sort of need to discuss with your opponent first and figure out how to field forces. So it is not like those 40K tournament games you liked to play before we got Danny.

Daddy Cool: No point values? That sounds a bit like Inquisitor...

Soccer Mom: Anyway, the starter box forces look like they should be pretty balanced against each other.

Daddy Cool: But you said you bought some more... ?

Soccer Mom: Just five more of those Sigmar non-marines, since Danny seemed to like them.

Daddy Cool: But if he wants to field all of them when playing with Tommy, then they need some more Khorne guys. I think I should have some chaos cultists and mutation sprues, maybe we could convert a few extras next week. But I think I only have round bases to put them on...

Soccer Mom: That should be fine, the models in the starter set are also on round bases. Anyway, when it comes to bases, the sizes do not matter.

Daddy Cool: The size does not matter?

Soccer Mom: Yes, since you do not measure from the base, but from the actual model.

Daddy Cool: Measuring from the model? That is odd, would not never work in Battlefleet Gothic due to the ships being totally out of scale...

Soccer Mom: Let's stick with this Sigmar game for now, OK? I really understand that you want to introduce him to spaceship gaming at some point, but I think that BFG is still a bit too complex for him. He is still only nine years old, and you should remember what his teacher said about his arithmetic skills...

The discussion is interrupted as Little Danny runs to the yard.

Little Danny: Oh, hi mommy!

Soccer Mom: Hi Danny, sweetie! Time to head to mommy's place for the weekend! Go and pick your stuff from inside so we can go. And I have got a new surprise for you again!

Little Danny: Oh great! I'll be ready in a minute!

Ten minutes later Soccer Mom and Little Danny depart for the weekend. Daddy Cool stays on the yard, finishing up the fence repairs. He looks thoughtful - maybe the mention of this new game without point system has reminded him of the brief Inquisitor campaign he participated in when he was a teenager, before he started dating with Soccer Mom. Those were the days!

How will the narrative unfold? How will Little Danny assemble his new multi-part Liberators? Will Daddy Cool enjoy the AoS games he is expected to play with Danny after the weekend? And is Soccer Mom thinking of inviting Awesome Ken for a game of Blood Bowl next week? Why are Little Danny's parents divorced? And which edition of Talisman does Tommy Taylor's dad prefer?

Overtninja
23-07-2015, 22:23
I thought with corpse cart is was 2/2, jsut checked, you're right it is 2/3 with cart and everything else I listed.

And to be honest, 30 zombies, 2 heros and one cart... isn't a big army. Give the vampire wings, add some bat swarms and stick the necro next to the zombies. Vampire becomes really mobile, nerco gets a 50% chance to look out sir, with -1 to being shot at due to bat swarms.
Then you can throw in whatever else you want to fill out the army. An unkillable zombie horde that auto hits.. is terrifying.
But I'm more concerned with some of the scarier armies can do. Lizardmen probably have some ridiculous stuff going on..

edit- I see, Necromancers actually get LoS! That's pretty nasty! It'll take a bunch of shots to kill them - you might just want to crank as many shots as you can into him anyway, he'll drop eventually and you'll slaughter all the zombies too! ;p Bat swarms have to be within 12" of the shooting models to disrupt shooting, as well. The flying Vampire is a problem, but he's going to have to run far away to avoid getting shot to death or chased down - at which point he's only summoning, which makes him not too much of a threat, ultimately. You could even chase him with a wizard and stuff his spells.

It should be noted that the zombie horde is not unkillable - they are actually eminently killable because they have no save. Literally everything kills them! There will be an awful lot of them, though - to get chaffed into worthlessness while they are shot off the field in droves!

Overtninja
23-07-2015, 22:28
The Swedish comp guys took one look at AoS, threw their hands up in the air, and said "Screw it, we're sticking to 8th."

That should give you an idea of how much more broken and unplayable AoS is to 8th. And this is speaking as someone who stopped playing because of 8th.

The Swedish Comp guys put a lot of work making the super broken rules of 8th work in the competitive scene, compared to that effort, AoS would have taken them literal hours to comp. This doesn't say anything about AoS as much as it says a lot about how unwilling the Swedish Comp team is to give up something they put a lot of effort and time into, both to create the comp system and to get it widely adopted.

It did take them a rather long time to get it to a stable state - and now that 8th is 'done', they can pretty much refine from this point - there will be no more changes, and since the system is kind of orphaned they can change whatever they deem necessary without any risk of other things being changed by GW in the future. Really, it's a labor of love for them and they're going to ride it as long as they can - and I don't blame them.

Overtninja
23-07-2015, 22:33
As a proud owner of one of the old Giant Death Clown minis I always look for ways to field the model. I still intend to use it in an AoS game. The only question is how I can actually accomplish that and still make for an entertaining game.

One of the problems is that even without summoning anything the model is way more powerful than an Empire General and 11 Halberdiers. 3+ save turns into 2+ with Mystic shield, and he hands out re-rolls on 1s. The model's offensive output on a per-Wound basis is also potent.

Nagash is something of a singularity for this game. It's an example where the normal rules either cease to apply or start to work strangely.

---

There's a way to add 1 to wound against a target unit with a Skaven Plague Priest I think. I'm not sure about generic bonuses to hit.

Nagash is a literal god in the setting, he's really not bound by the normal rules for fairness or balance. :p He's a great example of why simple wound counts don't really tell you how good a given model is.

If you want to field him, the best way is to create a scenario for the game - one where your opponent's army far exceeds your forces, but where their win conditions are survival-based or objective-based for them, while yours are to slaughter their army with summoned gribblies. I think this curated experience is the only way to have a fun game with Lord Spooky - he's just not scaled with the rest of the game in terms of potency, and honestly he shouldn't be.

Hoffa
23-07-2015, 23:03
The Swedish Comp guys put a lot of work making the super broken rules of 8th work in the competitive scene, compared to that effort, AoS would have taken them literal hours to comp. This doesn't say anything about AoS as much as it says a lot about how unwilling the Swedish Comp team is to give up something they put a lot of effort and time into, both to create the comp system and to get it widely adopted.

It did take them a rather long time to get it to a stable state - and now that 8th is 'done', they can pretty much refine from this point - there will be no more changes, and since the system is kind of orphaned they can change whatever they deem necessary without any risk of other things being changed by GW in the future. Really, it's a labor of love for them and they're going to ride it as long as they can - and I don't blame them.


You really have no idea what you are talking about. Age of Sigmar can not be comped. It needs a new point system designed from scratch to fit with existing rules. To get this working and not have balance issues is a huge task. Designing a new game with new units from scratch would be easier.

Also I would like to inform you that the entire Swedish comp has been scrapped. Swe comp team is working on a fan mod of eight called The Ninth Age. This will include updated rules and point values. As units can now be rebalanced directly by changing their cost the old 8:th comp will no longer be needed. Work has been ongoing since end of June and first beta will be some time in August. Note that this task was considered easier and less work than trying to fix AoS for tournament play.

itcamefromthedeep
23-07-2015, 23:23
Age of Sigmar can not be comped.Sure it can. Give every model a points value. Summoned units count toward your total points. 1s always fail. "Change" is a kind of modifier (for those twits who think Fateweaver/Bell works). Ignore Sudden Death.

Go nuts from there. It'll work just fine.

GrandmasterWang
24-07-2015, 01:10
Griefbringer mate... keep doing what you do :)

Love it.

I'll definitely be tuning in next week :)

8th is a much, much better game for tournaments so it makes sense they would stick with it, especially as it is now "complete"

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk

Spiney Norman
24-07-2015, 01:22
Sure it can. Give every model a points value. Summoned units count toward your total points. 1s always fail. "Change" is a kind of modifier (for those twits who think Fateweaver/Bell works). Ignore Sudden Death.

Go nuts from there. It'll work just fine.

Sorry, but how can summoned models count towards your points total if they are brought in by spells every turn, that means the points total of your army increases every magic phase, what do you do, allow your opponent to bring in an equivalent value unit in as reinforcements in his next movement phase?

Also I think you're grossly underestimating the amount of work it would take to calculate and play test a balanced point cost system for a game with as many different units as AoS, there is a reason why GW opted not to do it, they would have had to pay someone to do the work.

itcamefromthedeep
24-07-2015, 02:26
What I contemplated for points values is tat you can only summon units if you paid points for them before the game. Summoning spells would be more like Deep Strike.

8e points values aren't far off. Tweaking those to fit is a good start.

It would be a huge effort to figure it all out in a dark room somewhere, so instead I think we should test and adjust as necessary. I've set up howmanypoints.org so that everyone can vote, and when there's some reasonable data I'll compile it (easily via google forms) and give the median points value vote for each model. Boom, crowdsourced points values that can be updated and revisited as people test and change their minds (you can always change your vote).

AngryAngel
24-07-2015, 03:09
I'm loving the continued story with the hot mom, and I can't be the only one who read the whole thing wondering if it would get heated. :p

The bearded one
24-07-2015, 03:25
I was waiting for innuendos or "that's why I left you" jokes.

To be honest the bigger problems I'm having with Age of Sigmar are that the way the game plays doesn't appeal to me as a core part of playing is mashing your units into your opponent's unit in a big pile and throwing dice until you can't dice anymore. Combined with most people using square based armies, it feels like a giant game of proxies.

Griefbringer
24-07-2015, 08:21
I'm loving the continued story with the hot mom, and I can't be the only one who read the whole thing wondering if it would get heated. :p

I am quite sure that if Soccer Mom decides to invite Awesome Kevin for a game of Blood Bowl against her Elf team, he will gladly show up with his carefully converted and painted Norscan team ("The Mighty Rotten Herrings"). After all, Blood Bowl is one of his all time favourite GW games - alongside WH40K, WHFB, W:AoS, Epic 40K, Dreadfleet, Battlefleet Gothic, Mordheim, Warmaster, Necromunda, Warhammer Quest, Talisman, Tyranid Attack, Space Hulk, Dark Future, Chainsaw Warrior, Trolls in the Pantry and a few others.

Whether it is for his love of the game or his diplomatic nature, Awesome Kevin is claimed to have never refused a game of Blood Bowl. Actually, he is the only one in Art of War who is willing to play against Rick's home-brewed marine team, consisting fully of Wolf Guard terminators, all armed with assault cannons and cyclone missile launchers (he claims to have have obtained the inspiration from some obscure story in 2nd edition Space Wolf codex and claims that it is one of the fluffiest forces he has fielded in any GW game). So far Rick has lost every game he has played with them against the Mighty Rotten Herrings, and he is starting to wonder if the rules he wrote for them are underpowered. Maybe they would do better in a game of AoS or Warhammer Quest?

jtrowell
24-07-2015, 10:29
That doesn't seem wholey unreasonable, I'd be prepared to put some effort in to make AoS work because I like the models GW have made and since I'm buying the models to paint them up anyway I don't lose anything by modding a free rules set to get some additional use out of them. It's noteworthy that GW are selling models, not rules, the rules come free.

I am however unwilling to put in quite the amount of time and effort AoS needs to be playable, which almost equates to a ground-up re-write.


When I see all the efforts that somes are putting into trying to make the AoS rules works, I wonder if it wouldn't be easier for them to simply use another set of rules to serve as a base.

Reaper for exemple has their "Warlord" game that is similar in style to AoS (skimish level with a large collection of scroll-like units datasheet for their large collection of models), and simply using their rules and units lists (with points costs !) to serve as a base, with many models being perfect fits for similar Warhammer models, would probably result in a much better AoS game that the official one.

There is also Song of Blades and Heroes. As others have already said, if any other company than GW had released those rules, they would be at best considered like some alpha level ruleset still a long way from being useable.

SanDiegoSurrealist
24-07-2015, 14:40
If any other company would have put out AoS, everyone would go nuts for the cool new mini's and be talking about what models they will be using as proxies and trowing away the rules. Maybe they play it on a lark, just like what happened with KoW. People liked the cheap mini's, used them for Warhammer and occasionally played KoW.

SanDiegoSurrealist
24-07-2015, 14:51
Off the top of my head: with 30 zombies, 1 necro, 1 vampire and a corpse cart.
You get a potential 60 attacks 2+/2+, with a second pile in phase for another 60 attacks. (The trick is getting enough zombies into range. Harder than you think!)

Secondly, zombies have a rule that if they're within 3" (I think) they can merge together. Take a second necro and summon zombies to keep the unit above 30.

Then throw in a unit or two that adds +1/+1 and no need to dice roll. Just count zombies in range and off you go.


I get that its fluffy etc and zombies are awful and the opponent will probably win base on model % lost.
But I'm sure there's a combo thats even stronger. I went with zombies cause thats the one I know. But imagine flying sigmarines or something equally nasty.

Why go with rerolling 1's, if you can skip the rolls entirely :p

Similar to this, maybe slightly better than the zombie horde is the Krell + Skeleton Combo because it only takes 22 models to make it work.
Take Krell, a Necro and any units with the Skeleton keyword.
Krell gives +1 attack to one unit with the Skeleton keyword, Necro (with spell) gives double pile in and attack, Grave Guard (have Skeleton Keyword) base 2 attacks
20 Grave Guard (40 attacks base) + 1 for Krell boost (60 attacks) + double pile in and attacks (120 attacks per combat round).

Had this used on me the other day, steamrollered everything in-front of it. And at the end of the turn it has the potential to grow back lost wounds. Brutal!

Denny
24-07-2015, 15:18
I was waiting for innuendos or "that's why I left you" jokes.

All my games contain at least one moment when a player measures a range and utters something like 'Eight inches, not enough to get the job done'.
From then on its all downhill.

TheKingInYellow
24-07-2015, 15:27
If any other company would have put out AoS, everyone would go nuts for the cool new mini's and be talking about what models they will be using as proxies and trowing away the rules. Maybe they play it on a lark, just like what happened with KoW. People liked the cheap mini's, used them for Warhammer and occasionally played KoW.

The only reason AoS is selling it all is brand loyalty to AoS. No other game has rules this ridiculous and unbalanced with models this expensive. Even the starter box is priced through the roof when you compare to stuff like Perry Miniatures. I just bought a box of 32 plastic Saxon models for $25CDN to use as a Frostgrave warband.

Griefbringer
24-07-2015, 17:57
Even the starter box is priced through the roof when you compare to stuff like Perry Miniatures. I just bought a box of 32 plastic Saxon models for $25CDN to use as a Frostgrave warband.

I think this comparison leaves something to be desired, since the plastic Saxons were probably from Wargames Factory rather than Perry Miniatures. Wargames Factory is the only company selling plastic Saxons in boxes of 32 models, while Gripping Beast does theirs in boxes of 44 models and Perrys do not make plastic Saxons at all.

Importman
24-07-2015, 18:35
Rick is not being a true Rick because if he is then he would be taking as many ogre lead belchers he can fit on his side of the table only.

Sent from my GT-N7105 using Tapatalk 2

TheKingInYellow
24-07-2015, 18:46
I think this comparison leaves something to be desired, since the plastic Saxons were probably from Wargames Factory rather than Perry Miniatures. Wargames Factory is the only company selling plastic Saxons in boxes of 32 models, while Gripping Beast does theirs in boxes of 44 models and Perrys do not make plastic Saxons at all.

Sorry, I wasn't trying to imply I bought Perrys for that price. I know WGF models are considerably lower-tier quality wise!