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The bearded one
23-07-2015, 01:26
One of the initial thoughts I've been having about AoS from theorizing about the rules and playing a couple games, is that using massed missiletroops - especially competent ones who are acceptably decent CC troops - is rather powerful?

I've played a couple games now, in which I used a bretonnian lord on pegasus and 10 bretonnian archers, usually outnumbered by elite troops (one game was vs 3 characters, 10 swordmasters and 10 white lions, for example) and usually stuck my sudden death target full of arrows and then charged with the lord, and that was usually it.

Hitting and wounding on rather easy numbers - pretty much the same ones as competent troops do in CC - from range, being able to keep moving away and fire and force battleshock tests, without the kind of retaliation you'd receive in close combat, and even being able to fire into close combat and fighting at the same time seems like it makes missile troops really powerful.

I was looking at the judicators (the sigmarine archers) and they're pretty solid in combat (2 wounds, 4+ save, a 3+/4+ combat attack) and have 24" 3+/3+ -1 rending bows. To put that in perspective, those arrows hit as hard as the close combat attack from a white lion (and one out of 5 models in the unit can take a stronger bow that gets does D6 to wound rolls after the initial arrow hits).


Is spamming competent archers the road to victory?

Spiney Norman
23-07-2015, 01:38
Personally I don't think so no, I think spamming elite multi-wound, multi-Attack models is the key to victory, if they also happen to have missile weapons, that's great, but having 3+ wounds on your profile as well as multiply Attacks (or weapons that deal multiple wounds) is what really counts.

Maybe the new sigmarite archers will do what your looking for, ogre lead belchers might be good, but missile weapon Ranges are typically somewhat shorter than in wfb, in most situations you are going to have 1, maybe 2 turns of shooting befoe you are in combat, and most elite cc units will rip shooters to shreds.

Gork or Possibly Mork
23-07-2015, 01:45
One of the initial thoughts I've been having about AoS from theorizing about the rules and playing a couple games, is that using massed missiletroops - especially competent ones who are acceptably decent CC troops - is rather powerful?

I've played a couple games now, in which I used a bretonnian lord on pegasus and 10 bretonnian archers, usually outnumbered by elite troops (one game was vs 3 characters, 10 swordmasters and 10 white lions, for example) and usually stuck my sudden death target full of arrows and then charged with the lord, and that was usually it.

Hitting and wounding on rather easy numbers - pretty much the same ones as competent troops do in CC - from range, being able to keep moving away and fire and force battleshock tests, without the kind of retaliation you'd receive in close combat, and even being able to fire into close combat and fighting at the same time seems like it makes missile troops really powerful.

I was looking at the judicators (the sigmarine archers) and they're pretty solid in combat (2 wounds, 4+ save, a 3+/4+ combat attack) and have 24" 3+/3+ -1 rending bows. To put that in perspective, those arrows hit as hard as the close combat attack from a white lion (and one out of 5 models in the unit can take a stronger bow that gets does D6 to wound rolls after the initial arrow hits).


Is spamming competent archers the road to victory?

I don't think it's the road to victory per se because there are counters to it ( fast troops with low armor for instance ) but it's certainly powerful.

Biggest worry to me is how easily they can take out or weaken heroes which act to buff your regular troops.

Not to get into a rules discussion but there needs to be some kind of look out sir errata and perhaps not being able to shoot while engaged or at engaged models.

Gork or Possibly Mork
23-07-2015, 01:58
Personally I don't think so no, I think spamming elite multi-wound, multi-Attack models is the key to victory, if they also happen to have missile weapons, that's great, but having 3+ wounds on your profile as well as multiply Attacks (or weapons that deal multiple wounds) is what really counts.

Maybe the new sigmarite archers will do what your looking for, ogre lead belchers might be good, but missile weapon Ranges are typically somewhat shorter than in wfb, in most situations you are going to have 1, maybe 2 turns of shooting befoe you are in combat, and most elite cc units will rip shooters to shreds.

I don't think there is a holy grail tbh. I think there's counters for pretty much everything.

If we are talking reality here and not being hypothetical like someone is going to slap down as many leadbelchers as can fit on a table then i could see a player tarpitting someones limited collection of elite multi wound models with crap and directing their movement while shooting the crap out of them then cleaning them up after.

Shandor
23-07-2015, 02:15
Personally I don't think so no, I think spamming elite multi-wound, multi-Attack models is the key to victory, if they also happen to have missile weapons, that's great, but having 3+ wounds on your profile as well as multiply Attacks (or weapons that deal multiple wounds) is what really counts.

Maybe the new sigmarite archers will do what your looking for, ogre lead belchers might be good, but missile weapon Ranges are typically somewhat shorter than in wfb, in most situations you are going to have 1, maybe 2 turns of shooting befoe you are in combat, and most elite cc units will rip shooters to shreds.

Yeah but beeing in close combat dont stop them from shooting. They have one close combat phase without the enemy strike back.

itcamefromthedeep
23-07-2015, 02:29
"Road to victory" by what measure?

If you're going by wound then you'll probably want heroes and monsters. If your area hasn't handling summoning well then it probably won't matter. If your opponent has one of those tornado scenery pieces then shooting may be necessary for killing that important wizard. If you're going by points (like 8e points values) then missile troops are probably somewhere on the efficient side.

I'd say basic archers are roughly as valuable as elite infantry. Whether that means winning in your area depends on a lot of things.

GrandmasterWang
23-07-2015, 04:11
Imo shooting is now extremely powerful.

It basically gives units extra attacks and given that a shooting unit can be in combat and shoot a completely different unit from the unit it is fighting I think all shooters have gotten a clear boost.

There is actually a valuable strategy of shielding your shooters with melee guys now that your shooters can affect that combat without actually being a part of it

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Gharak
23-07-2015, 06:54
Yes shooting armies would appear to be the way forward for the moment.

At the local store there's a dwarf player fielding 2 cannons an organ gun and a massive block of crossbow men plus another block of troops and a couple of chars. Not seen him lose yet, yesterday he took out a bllodthirster in turn 1 followed by a soul grinder in turn 2, that put a massive dent in the chaos players force.

Another player fields a skagen shoot force that's resound wiped the floor with everyone I've seen who shows up.

Yes there are counters to this my plan is deepstriking prosecutors and hitting the cannons hard but to put a plan in place I need more models to be sure it works which means further investment in money and hobby time.


G

duffybear1988
23-07-2015, 08:50
I tabled my opponent the other night (he insisted on trying AoS :() using a mostly shooting army.

I ran 9 dwarf irondrakes with champ armed with the harpoon and musician and icon bearer, 1 dwarf lord with shield, 10 slayers with full command, 1 runelord, 1 cannon and 1 engineer. He took 22 night goblins with full command, 2 fanatics, 5 spider riders with musician and champ, 1 orc chariot, 1 orc shaman and 6 orc arrer boyz with champ.

Thanks to the dwarf lord's ability I was hitting the enemy on 3s and wounding on 2s with the irondrakes and if they didn't move I could shoot twice. If I then stuck the runelord's ability on them they were at -2 to armour saves as well. He just couldn't control the battlefield when his spider riders were wiped out and his arrows were bouncing off of my armour. In the end his fanatics had chewed through my unit of slayers and a couple of wounds were gone on the runelord but his entire army apart from the shaman and a chariot on 1 wound was gone.

Next time I'm just going to run irondrakes and maybe a few ironbreakers with a lord. Then it can be a themed tunnel fighting force and nobody can moan about them being too powerful. Honestly, being speed 4 doesn't matter when you can shoot excellent guns twice at 16" with a nice buff from your characters.

MOMUS
23-07-2015, 10:29
Honestly, being speed 4 doesn't matter when you can shoot excellent guns twice at 16" with a nice buff from your characters.

How do you capture objectives with that force? ;)

Deadhorse
23-07-2015, 11:16
Why bother discussing this? I am seriously intrigued.

There are no limits other than self-imposed limits in AoS. Yes, units that shoot and fight are usually better than units that just fight, for obvious reasons. And units that summon units are even better still. And, somewhere at the top of the food chain is Nagash.

The game has nearly no tactics, so you win in three cases: the "satisfying" version is that you attacked with your entire force, while the opponent sent his units into combat one at a time (or some variant thereof). The second case is because your troops were better than the opponent's troops, i.e. the game was imbalanced from the start. Third option is luck.

If you start talking about what units are best, then the answer is most likely: units composed of Nagashes. Otherwise, how does finding "better" units help you have a meaningful gaming experience? If you notice that some units are better than others, you should just limit using them, because otherwise you are creating and imbalanced game and being a *********. Right?

Buddy Bear
23-07-2015, 11:35
How do you capture objectives with that force? ;)

What objectives? The game's a fight to the death, last man standing. An objective only enters into it when you have Sudden Death, and that's just one option out of several.

innerwolf
23-07-2015, 14:26
What objectives? The game's a fight to the death, last man standing. An objective only enters into it when you have Sudden Death, and that's just one option out of several.

Have you heard of the big book scenarios? At least one of them revolves around objectives AFAIK

Shandor
23-07-2015, 14:33
How do you capture objectives with that force? ;)

Thats 40k. in AoS you move your Models to the middle of the Table and dice until someone won.

GrandmasterWang
23-07-2015, 15:08
Thats 40k. in AoS you move your Models to the middle of the Table and dice until someone won.

At least according to AOS haters on the internet ;)

I still remember when people (8th haters) were screaming that about 8th

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MOMUS
23-07-2015, 16:17
What objectives? The game's a fight to the death, last man standing. An objective only enters into it when you have Sudden Death, and that's just one option out of several.


Thats 40k. in AoS you move your Models to the middle of the Table and dice until someone won.


Im guessing you guys haven't read the missions in the big book or the missions being created on the UK tournament scene?

Charistoph
23-07-2015, 16:38
Thats 40k. in AoS you move your Models to the middle of the Table and dice until someone won.

That didn't happen in a game between Stormcast and Wood Elves. The Stormcast were able to catch the Sylvaneth with no problem, but those Glade Guard stayed largely untouched throughout the game because they didn't get within Charging range.

Dwarfs and Stormcast aren't fast, so their melee infantry will be torn up by shooters, especially shooters who can move normally as almost as fast as the other guy runs. Shooters tend to get mucked up by melee cavalry, though, because of the Charging bonuses they usually have access to.

thesoundofmusica
23-07-2015, 16:54
Im guessing you guys haven't read the missions in the big book or the missions being created on the UK tournament scene?

BuddyBear and Shandor are just trolling. Pay no heed. They likely never played warhammer to begin with.

Spiney Norman
23-07-2015, 16:55
Yeah but beeing in close combat dont stop them from shooting. They have one close combat phase without the enemy strike back.

It depends entirely on context, or example I'd much rather have a unit of chaos warriors with two wounds each, that can Attack twice in the combat phase, than a unit of glade guard that can Attack once in the shooting phase and once in the combat phase and have no save to speak of.

Shooting is one consideration, but by itself it does not make a unit good, having 2-3 wounds per model is massive in AoS, and imo far more important than the ability to shoot.

MOMUS
23-07-2015, 17:12
BuddyBear and Shandor are just trolling. Pay no heed. They likely never played warhammer to begin with.

But I thought trolling was meant to be amusing? :confused:

itcamefromthedeep
23-07-2015, 17:20
Why are we talking about what's "good"?

Having 2-3 Wounds each is a big deal if you go by model count, but then Characters and Monsters are usually better for model count by that measure.

Going by value per wound it's still usually Characters and Monsters that win the day, with an honorable mention to War Machines.

Given the choice between a skeleton Warrior and a skeleton Archer the Archer is almost always better. So what? If you go by 8e points values it's not that big a deal because by that system the Archers are pricier.

Value per wound? Value per point? Value per deployment drop? Value per model? Which of these should I care about, if any?

Twido
23-07-2015, 17:25
It depends entirely on context, or example I'd much rather have a unit of chaos warriors with two wounds each, that can Attack twice in the combat phase, than a unit of glade guard that can Attack once in the shooting phase and once in the combat phase and have no save to speak of.

Shooting is one consideration, but by itself it does not make a unit good, having 2-3 wounds per model is massive in AoS, and imo far more important than the ability to shoot.

To be honest, In a system that is not meant to be balanced, it seems odd to want any one troop over another based on how effective they are in the rules. In a perverse way it seems like wanting to win is some sort of crime.

To me the real issue is that the shooting phase is horribly unrealistic since if you are busy fighting with your sword, you shouldn't be able to pull out a bow, notch an arrow and shoot some distant target. The whole purpose of rules is to bring realism to the game, and in this it fails.

GrandmasterWang
23-07-2015, 18:15
To be honest, In a system that is not meant to be balanced, it seems odd to want any one troop over another based on how effective they are in the rules. In a perverse way it seems like wanting to win is some sort of crime.

To me the real issue is that the shooting phase is horribly unrealistic since if you are busy fighting with your sword, you shouldn't be able to pull out a bow, notch an arrow and shoot some distant target. The whole purpose of rules is to bring realism to the game, and in this it fails.

Shooting while in combat is different thats for sure. So far im neutral on it. The other day however i was talking with a mate about how fighting and shooting together was 'unrealistic' while he was playing an fps
(a mate who loves AOS but didn't enjoy playing 8th) and he proceeded to switch between melee and shooting to take out about 6 enemies in a couple of seconds with both melee and shooting attacks and responded "see it makes perfect sense"..... so it can be argued both ways.

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Twido
23-07-2015, 18:30
Shooting while in combat is different thats for sure. So far im neutral on it. The other day however i was talking with a mate about how fighting and shooting together was 'unrealistic' while he was playing an fps
(a mate who loves AOS but didn't enjoy playing 8th) and he proceeded to switch between melee and shooting to take out about 6 enemies in a couple of seconds with both melee and shooting attacks and responded "see it makes perfect sense"..... so it can be argued both ways.

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If the rules were trying to simulate a FPS game then it would make perfect sense. For simulating a battle, albeit with a fantasy setting, it makes no sense at all.

Overtninja
23-07-2015, 19:00
I think the major difference is that you're not really simulating a battle like you were in WFB, with large armies clashing. You're throwing a bunch of minis that operate like DnD characters on the field - the sort that can fire three shots with a bow at point blank into their opponents and then dive at them with two swords immediately afterwards. It's not a massed battle game - it's a miniature game where every model is heroic and individually functional - though in the case of many ranged attackers, 'functional' is charitable at best where melee is concerned. ;p

I think if you picture your minis less like soldiers in a regiment and more like individual characters with different abilities and features dependent on their jobs or role, it helps paint a better picture of what's going on.

Charistoph
23-07-2015, 19:08
Shooting while in combat is different thats for sure. So far im neutral on it. The other day however i was talking with a mate about how fighting and shooting together was 'unrealistic' while he was playing an fps
(a mate who loves AOS but didn't enjoy playing 8th) and he proceeded to switch between melee and shooting to take out about 6 enemies in a couple of seconds with both melee and shooting attacks and responded "see it makes perfect sense"..... so it can be argued both ways.

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Now let's see him do it with an FPS game that uses muskets and not automatic rifles.

It's possible with bows, if you are really fast and really good, just look at Legolas. However, not all shooting weapons are as easy to use as a bow, nor are everyone using the weapon a millenia old person with lightning reflexes. Handguns and crossbows really don't reload quickly (unless it's the cheating Dark Elf kind), and artillery is even worse. Fortunately, not all War Machines can target in to the fight they are in (but oddly can fire OUT of it).

Captain Marius
23-07-2015, 19:18
Ive enjoyed shooting in combat so far, as i like the idea of my dudes blasting away at point blank range. Realistically they probably need to stick minimum ranges on most missile weapons tho... and only let you shoot units you are engaged with... and limit missile troops to fifty percent or whatever of your army... and come up with an overall balancing mechanism for pick up games! Tricky one!

I do like sniping characters tho, that encourages you to send in the chaff first to take out or hold up the enemy guns!

Overtninja
23-07-2015, 19:24
Just think of the hijinks required to fire a cannon whilst it is being assaulted by cavalry or something - it's hilarious. It's practically a Princess Bride fight scene by itself - especially given that said crew are probably all dying as they load the cannon and pack the powder and shot, with the last expiring, slumped over the barrel, hand igniting the wick with a final, raspy gurgle.

It's easy to imagine that whatever shots are gotten off by a black powder or crossbows are by those that hadn't fired in the last volley, or had managed to partially reload before the combat was joined. Even for those troops, if they don't leg it out of combat the next round (forgoing their shooting), they're going to get butchered. Any shots they fire are likely their final defiant acts. Historically this is of course not plausible - black powder took like a minute to load, and most crossbows required firm footing and a leg to re-set it for firing - or a hand-crank (those were only used in siege though), but I think AoS especially lends itself towards the more fantastical. Even WFB wasn't exactly operating on any real, historically grounded footing.

thesoundofmusica
23-07-2015, 19:40
I guess you guys missed this https://m.youtube.com/user/CombatArchery?

Ayin
23-07-2015, 19:44
I guess you guys missed this https://m.youtube.com/user/CombatArchery?

In fact it's already been mentioned that it's more likely possible with a bow than with an arquebus or any type of crossbow, let alone war machines of nearly any type, from cannons to catapults.

Thanks though.

AngryAngel
23-07-2015, 19:59
Im guessing you guys haven't read the missions in the big book or the missions being created on the UK tournament scene?

I think most people are talking about core rules, not the extras you can use if you pay the low low price of 75 $ for a book with still no army balancing mechanic, yet a couple scenarios. I'm sure you bought the book, but assume other people may not have. Though you can enlighten them all I am sure.


BuddyBear and Shandor are just trolling. Pay no heed. They likely never played warhammer to begin with.

They could as well just be saying what the actual point of AoS is outside of an over expensive fluff/model pic book with a couple scenarios inside that has an objective based scenario. Either or I guess.

Gorthor21
23-07-2015, 20:22
if people are so digruntled with this new form of warhammer then why keep complaining and criticizing in nearly every topic that gets started about the game. one can still find like minds to play older editions. it would make finding useful information on these forums far easier if people didn't muck it up with complaint instead of feedback.

Shandor
23-07-2015, 20:27
BuddyBear and Shandor are just trolling. Pay no heed. They likely never played warhammer to begin with.

One moment. You are on the trolling side. You just already did troll us here. Look at all those one-line troll posts you make.

Charistoph
23-07-2015, 20:35
Realistically they probably need to stick minimum ranges on most missile weapons tho... and only let you shoot units you are engaged with if you are engaged...

I could get behind this. It wouldn't be hard to explain in a House Rule. Just make every Shooting Weapon range start with 3", and you're good.

As it is, Pistols are the only weapons listed being able to be used in both Shooting and Combat Phases, though the shooting is generally better.

ScruffMan
23-07-2015, 20:36
One moment. You are on the trolling side. You just already did troll us here. Look at all those one-line troll posts you make.

We've already had people say they will do anything they can to discourage people playing this game, it seems that includes derailing every single thread with the same old posts. Criticism is fine but when it is the same old criticism over and over deliberately attempting to stop discussion folk should expect to be snapped at occasionally?

As for missile units, not had a huge problem with them yet but not played many games where there are too many of them about.

Shandor
23-07-2015, 20:39
The point is not that its possible to shoot at someone at close range with a Bow. It still can kill.
The point is that it should be impossible for Troops to reload, shoot and melee the same time in a close combat fight. Even with a bow. I just assume that not everyone in your Army is Legolas or some kind for Trick Arrow Ninja.

@ scruffman: I have no interest to tell peoples what they should play or not. I just sharing my Opinion in a discussion in Forums. Thats what they are for as far i know. If you dont agree with my opinion its cool to me. But you have to accept i might dont share your opinion also.
But thats far away from "trolling"

ScruffMan
23-07-2015, 20:52
That's fine mate and no problem with that at all, if I got it wrong and nobody is intentionally looking to close down discussion then I sincerely apologise.

Shandor
23-07-2015, 21:17
That's fine mate and no problem with that at all, if I got it wrong and nobody is intentionally looking to close down discussion then I sincerely apologise.

Its ok. No offence taken.

Back to Topic: Did you realize that Warmachines are really Close Combat Monsters now? I had 2 units of 5 Riders attacking my Bolt Thrower and they didnt had a chance..

jet_palero
23-07-2015, 23:09
if people are so digruntled with this new form of warhammer then why keep complaining and criticizing in nearly every topic that gets started about the game. one can still find like minds to play older editions. it would make finding useful information on these forums far easier if people didn't muck it up with complaint instead of feedback.

The fiercest anger of all, the most incurable, is that which rages in the place of dearest love.

MOMUS
23-07-2015, 23:22
I think most people are talking about core rules, not the extras you can use if you pay the low low price of 75 $ for a book with still no army balancing mechanic, yet a couple scenarios. I'm sure you bought the book, but assume other people may not have. Though you can enlighten them all I'm sure.

I didn't get it and you should never assume :p
But there's plenty of pics floating about in the net. :yes:

Shipmonkey
24-07-2015, 02:42
Back to Topic: Did you realize that Warmachines are really Close Combat Monsters now? I had 2 units of 5 Riders attacking my Bolt Thrower and they didnt had a chance..

I guess I'll feed the troll.

Can you explain how a model with no melee attacks is a Close Combat Monster?

Buddy Bear
24-07-2015, 02:52
It can still shoot even when locked in melee, including firing at the unit it's in melee combat with.

Shandor
24-07-2015, 02:55
I guess I'll feed the troll.

Can you explain how a model with no melee attacks is a Close Combat Monster?

Well first i wanted to say :Just play the game and find out.. since im a Troll.. But i try to explain why:

a Bolt thrower has 4 wounds, got 12 shots, rend -1, make 2 wounds on 6's, and does no Battleshock tests. If you dont kill it outright it stays and is happy shooting your Units meleeing it.

Gorthor21
24-07-2015, 02:56
The fiercest anger of all, the most incurable, is that which rages in the place of dearest love.

i understand that completely, this hobby has been the only constant in my life since i was 13. i don't understand why people take it so personally when a game changes and feel as if they discovered their significant other cheated on them and must now go to every effort to ruin their name. yes this hobby has a deep place in all our hearts but we shouldnt feel as if it were a real tangible relationship. we can always go back to older editions or use a different system all together if the newest. game doesn't meet your needs.

Buddy Bear
24-07-2015, 02:56
BuddyBear and Shandor are just trolling. Pay no heed. They likely never played warhammer to begin with.

So pointing out what the rules actually say is considered trolling in your book?

As for never playing Warhammer Fantasy, my 10,000 points of Empire say otherwise. And sorry, I was focusing on the released rules, not made up fan scenarios or the absurdly priced $75 book which I have no intention of ever buying (ease of access, right?).

Buddy Bear
24-07-2015, 02:59
Shooting while in combat is different thats for sure. So far im neutral on it. The other day however i was talking with a mate about how fighting and shooting together was 'unrealistic' while he was playing an fps
(a mate who loves AOS but didn't enjoy playing 8th) and he proceeded to switch between melee and shooting to take out about 6 enemies in a couple of seconds with both melee and shooting attacks and responded "see it makes perfect sense"..... so it can be argued both ways.

According to FPS games, you can walk around with a knife, handgun, shotgun, automatic weapon, rocket launcher, and minigun without being hindered in any way and easily switch between them while carrying hundreds of rounds of ammo for each (including rockets for the rocket launcher). I wouldn't consider FPS games indicative of anything remotely approaching realism.

mrknify
24-07-2015, 03:03
Here's my aos unit.http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/07/23/0b408d96bc71b9cd232fedb8e73d740f.jpg

Shipmonkey
24-07-2015, 03:26
Well first i wanted to say :Just play the game and find out.. since im a Troll.. But i try to explain why:

a Bolt thrower has 4 wounds, got 12 shots, rend -1, make 2 wounds on 6's, and does no Battleshock tests. If you dont kill it outright it stays and is happy shooting your Units meleeing it.

So, you still haven't explained how a unit with melee no attacks is a Close Combat Monster? It has no attacks in the combat phase. It's shooting abilities in the Shooting Phase are irrelevant. Attempting To impose the rules of the old game on the new one doesn't help.

And, would you explain your example? Two five man units of Riders have a good chance of killing the machine in one round of combat and the bolt thrown has a low chance of killing both Rider units in one round of shooting.

Shipmonkey
24-07-2015, 03:27
It can still shoot even when locked in melee, including firing at the unit it's in melee combat with.

You say,"locked in melee" like that's an actual rule. Did you house rule it in for your test games?

Shipmonkey
24-07-2015, 03:32
. I wouldn't consider FPS games indicative of anything remotely approaching realism.

Please tell us more about the realism of tentacle covered, disease ridden, worshippers of a primordial plague god engaging in combat with a animate ancient flora for the rights to pass through a magical gate to Heaven.

Shandor
24-07-2015, 03:55
So, you still haven't explained how a unit with melee no attacks is a Close Combat Monster? It has no attacks in the combat phase. It's shooting abilities in the Shooting Phase are irrelevant. Attempting To impose the rules of the old game on the new one doesn't help.

And, would you explain your example? Two five man units of Riders have a good chance of killing the machine in one round of combat and the bolt thrown has a low chance of killing both Rider units in one round of shooting.

I see you already got it and just Trolling. Is that really necessary?

Shipmonkey
24-07-2015, 04:03
I see you already got it and just Trolling. Is that really necessary?

It's very necessary. I you are going to make wild claims, you should be able to back them up. Claiming a Bolt Thrower is a Close Combat monster, because shooting rules in this game don't resemble those of the old game, is just trolling. You are intentionally obfuscating the example to prove a point that is incorrect.

Tichey
24-07-2015, 04:20
If you charged a warmachine with a combat unit your going to get at least one combat round before it gets to shoot again, unless you charged in with a tiny unit of zombies your probably going to kill the two crew and the machine becomes useless.

Shipmonkey
24-07-2015, 05:07
If you charged a warmachine with a combat unit your going to get at least one combat round before it gets to shoot again, unless you charged in with a tiny unit of zombies your probably going to kill the two crew and the machine becomes useless.

As I read the rules, that's the best way to kill a war machine. Makes you really wonder how the ten cavalry men in Shandor's have no chance to put the bolt thrower out of commission.

The one problem is that the rules are a little unclear. It can be argued that the crew and war machine are one unit and thus the owning player can assign wounds between all three models as he wishes. On the other hand, there is no rule stating the crew has to stay with the bolt thrower. GW could have been more clear there.

Corax
24-07-2015, 05:12
GW could have been more clear there.

Pretty much sums up AoS in general.

Ayin
24-07-2015, 05:28
Pretty much sums up AoS in general.

Perhaps you haven't been informed by some of the more vocal members of the AoS community on Warseer, but if you are implying that there is some confusion in the rules then you are either A) dumb because there are only four pages of them and you must have failed at Fantasy as well because it was way longer and more difficult or B) intentionally trying to break the system with ridiculous examples and intentionally mis-interpreting it.

If you have not been previously informed, consider yourself warned of the storm ahead.

Charistoph
24-07-2015, 05:39
You say,"locked in melee" like that's an actual rule. Did you house rule it in for your test games?

While it is true that a unit can never be "locked" in melee, they can be Engaged. Movement (little 'm') in such a situation is restricted to Fleeing or Piling In.

mhsellwood
24-07-2015, 05:59
Its ok. No offence taken.

Back to Topic: Did you realize that Warmachines are really Close Combat Monsters now? I had 2 units of 5 Riders attacking my Bolt Thrower and they didnt had a chance..

Shandor could you please cover what actually happened? Because to be fair you are suggesting that your bolt throwers were attacked by two cavalry units and the cavalry had no chance. I am struggling to see how that could happen - even the worst cavalry in the game (arguably the Skeleton Horsemen) would be able to destroy or cripple your war machine in one round of combat. So was it pure luck on one side or the other? Or did you shoot them to bits first, which has nothing to do with war machines and close combat?

In general you can not use lone occasions to prove a point - I have killed phoenixes with my dwarf cannon crew in AoS, and I have lost to 3 chaos hounds in 8th. What does that tell us about anything? Nothing.

Shandor
24-07-2015, 12:22
Shandor could you please cover what actually happened? Because to be fair you are suggesting that your bolt throwers were attacked by two cavalry units and the cavalry had no chance. I am struggling to see how that could happen - even the worst cavalry in the game (arguably the Skeleton Horsemen) would be able to destroy or cripple your war machine in one round of combat. So was it pure luck on one side or the other? Or did you shoot them to bits first, which has nothing to do with war machines and close combat?

In general you can not use lone occasions to prove a point - I have killed phoenixes with my dwarf cannon crew in AoS, and I have lost to 3 chaos hounds in 8th. What does that tell us about anything? Nothing.

Sure i can.

Bolt thrower got attacked by 5 Dark Riders. They could not kill it (made 2 wounds) and could not attack the Crew because it was standing behind it. The bolt thrower shot the unit meleeing the Thrower to pieces. Next round the secound 5 Riders attacking make another wound and the same happend.

Its cool you killed Phönixes with a Cannon crew. But thats not the point. The point is that the War machines are very resistand now. If you dont kill them right away they will really hurt your Unit attacking them in close combat.

The worse thing could happen to you with a Unit attacking a War machine in close combat was that you are stuck another round or even 2 to destroy it. (Yeah and if you full out of luck the crew even kills a Phönix :) ) But it still was a good thing because it does not continue shooting at your army. Now if your unit is "stuck" on the attacked Warmachine it can just shoot your unit attacking it down and continue Fireing.

Spiney Norman
24-07-2015, 13:03
Sure i can.

Bolt thrower got attacked by 5 Dark Riders. They could not kill it (made 2 wounds) and could not attack the Crew because it was standing behind it. The bolt thrower shot the unit meleeing the Thrower to pieces. Next round the secound 5 Riders attacking make another wound and the same happend.

Its cool you killed Phönixes with a Cannon crew. But thats not the point. The point is that the War machines are very resistand now. If you dont kill them right away they will really hurt your Unit attacking them in close combat.

The worse thing could happen to you with a Unit attacking a War machine in close combat was that you are stuck another round or even 2 to destroy it. (Yeah and if you full out of luck the crew even kills a Phönix :) ) But it still was a good thing because it does not continue shooting at your army. Now if your unit is "stuck" on the attacked Warmachine it can just shoot your unit attacking it down and continue Fireing.

I really don't see why this is a problem

If you're charging the bolt thrower you have to get within 1/2" of the machine to succeed at the charge
The crew have to be within 1" of the machine to be able to fire it.

So unless you roll exactly the amount required to succeed at the charge you will be able to engage the crew from your charge move (if you roll 1" more than required you would be able to engage the crew).

Even if you do make the charge by the skin of your teeth I fail to see how it would be impossible to engage the crew using your 3" pile in move in the combat phase because they are only 1" from the warmachine (not to mention that dark rider spears have a range of 2" as well and they have a shooting attack of their own), did he pull some weird trick with impassible terrain or something? Then all you have to do is allocate your attacks against the crew, kill them and the machine is useless, job done.

Shandor
24-07-2015, 13:12
I really don't see why this is a problem

If you're charging the bolt thrower you have to get within 1/2" of the machine to succeed at the charge
The crew have to be within 1" of the machine to be able to fire it.

So unless you roll exactly the amount required to succeed at the charge you will be able to engage the crew from your charge move (if you roll 1" more than required you would be able to engage the crew).

Even if you do make the charge by the skin of your teeth I fail to see how it would be impossible to engage the crew using your 3" pile in move in the combat phase because they are only 1" from the warmachine (not to mention that dark rider spears have a range of 2" as well and they have a shooting attack of their own), did he pull some weird trick with impassible terrain or something? Then all you have to do is allocate your attacks against the crew, kill them and the machine is useless, job done.

Never sayd its a problem. my iniatal point just was that War machines can be monsters even in close combat. I never had the intention to tell everyone that its a groundbreaking fail on the rules or something. The topic was that missle troops are very strong in AoS and thats a part of it.

duffybear1988
24-07-2015, 14:01
How do you capture objectives with that force? ;)

Well I have the musicians for running if I really have to. If I was playing objectives I would just chuck in a few pegasus knights from Bretonnia.

Twido
24-07-2015, 15:58
Never sayd its a problem. my iniatal point just was that War machines can be monsters even in close combat. I never had the intention to tell everyone that its a groundbreaking fail on the rules or something. The topic was that missle troops are very strong in AoS and thats a part of it.

I on the other hand do consider it a ground breaking rules fail. I can accept though that I might be looking for more realistic systems in my war game than whoever AOS is aimed at.

Charistoph
24-07-2015, 16:14
Even if you do make the charge by the skin of your teeth I fail to see how it would be impossible to engage the crew using your 3" pile in move in the combat phase because they are only 1" from the warmachine (not to mention that dark rider spears have a range of 2" as well and they have a shooting attack of their own), did he pull some weird trick with impassible terrain or something? Then all you have to do is allocate your attacks against the crew, kill them and the machine is useless, job done.

War Machine and Crew are all one unit. So the owning player allocates the damage. Closest the Attacker can do is if the War Machine is "borrowing" crew from another Machine, but even that can be mitigated a little.

thesoundofmusica
24-07-2015, 16:38
War Machine and Crew are all one unit. So the owning player allocates the damage. Closest the Attacker can do is if the War Machine is "borrowing" crew from another Machine, but even that can be mitigated a little.

I will revise my answer.

I think crew and war machine can be targeted seperately. They have different entries with differing stats. They dont have a combined profile. Some crew have a completely different unit entry (like salamanders and skink handlers) and some are referred to specifically as "a war machine with a unit of x crew" (like empire war machines).

Charistoph
24-07-2015, 17:07
I will revise my answer.

I think crew and war machine can be targeted seperately. They have different entries with differing stats. They dont have a combined profile. Some crew have a completely different unit entry (like salamanders and skink handlers) and some are referred to specifically as "a war machine with a unit of x crew" (like empire war machines).

Salamanders are not War Machines, though. The Description on MOST of the War Machines are listed as "War Machine and Crew" (Hellcannon is in a weird place). Just because it has two profiles, doesn't mean there are two units. One has to go by the Description.

Twido
24-07-2015, 18:01
I will revise my answer.

I think crew and war machine can be targeted seperately. They have different entries with differing stats. They dont have a combined profile. Some crew have a completely different unit entry (like salamanders and skink handlers) and some are referred to specifically as "a war machine with a unit of x crew" (like empire war machines).

It doesn't even matter. The argument is that loading and firing missile weapons while at the same time striking and defending from blows in hand to hand combat is silly. This is extra silly for war machines that are harder to load and take longer to aim. Saying that at least there is a chance that the crew will be killed before getting to do there shooty stabby party trick does not counter that argument; there is also the chance they won't be killed. It is the mechanism that is faulty and thinking of situations where it might not seem so bad doesn't get to the core of the issue.

Of course the fix for this is so remarkably simple that I have to think there is a purpose to having this faulty game mechanic. I can't think of what it could be but would genuinely be happy to find out from a game design perspective.

madden
24-07-2015, 18:44
The fix is movement in 8th you charged the machine and killed the crew in aos get round the side and engage the crew directly all hits ect are on the crew profile plus once a wounds been allocated you keep going untill dead. As to shooting while in cc i see it as a scrap load cut a few corners or just reloaded as the charge came in. In napolonic times the brit cannon could shoot 3 times a minuet and hand guns fire 4 times a minuet so shooting in combat wouldnt be easy but can be done.

thesoundofmusica
24-07-2015, 18:57
Salamanders are not War Machines, though. The Description on MOST of the War Machines are listed as "War Machine and Crew" (Hellcannon is in a weird place). Just because it has two profiles, doesn't mean there are two units. One has to go by the Description.

Yes my reply was poor and made in haste. Read the thread "warmachines and crew" on page 2 instead if you havent already. I dont think it settles the matter but still worth a read, no point repeating it all here.

Flipmode
24-07-2015, 19:49
It is pretty silly. Then again, I thought that a large unit of archers going 'hold up lads, there is one guy attacking us over here, nobody shoot!' was also strange.