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View Full Version : Army building with wound count and warscrolls - tactics



iSHAKA
23-07-2015, 12:58
So AOS is out and i've been looking at some way to balance mine and my opponents forces. The method Guerrilla Miniature Games uses on their channel seems to work alright and looks like a method GW might use if they releasea a more tornament focesed rule set. that is.

1-12 warscrolls army total
60 wounds army total (good starting point the total can always be raised)

20 wounds WS cap

1-2 Hero WS
0-2 Monster WS
0-2 war machines WS

Can only duplicate a WS once (unless part of a detachment listed at the back of the book)
Can not duplicate a named WS (i.e special characters)

This system is by no means perfect but it could be a very promising direction. First there may also need to be a 0-2 limit on Wizzard WS. Second summoning may still be to power full in witch case maybe make it a once per games use ability and you can only summon a unit that already exist in you army and at the minimum unit size? With this method only the more elite troops would be chosen why take a High Elf Spearman if you could take a Phoenix Guard for the same wounds cost ? there would be no reason to not take the optional mount some hero who can or to not take the banner and musician upgrades in some units. but is that even such a big problem ? Also if this "balances the armies" i think the sudden death objectives could be a little unfair, maybe both sides get to pick a sudden death objective or both sides choose or roll for the same sudden death objective (this could be quite interesting)


With that in mind I'd be really interested in seeing what lists people could come up with using this method, to get the ball rolling here are some I've been thinking about.


High Elves

Tyrion - 6w
Teclis - 5w
5 Dragon Princes of Caledor - 10w
10 Ellyrian Reaves - 20w
9 Ellyrian Reaves - 18w

Total 59w


Lizzard Men

Saurus host (extra attack and immune to Battle Shock)
Saurus Oldblood - 7w
11 Saurus Warriors - 11w
10 Saurus Warriors - 10w
10 Saurus Warriors - 10w
5 Saurus Cavalry - 10w

Kroq–Gar on Carnosaur 12w

Total 60w

Ogre Kingdoms

Butcher - 7w
4 Ogres [Iron fists, Look out Gnoblar] - 16w
3 Ironguts - 12w
Thundertusk [blood vulture] - 12w
Thundertusk [blood vulture] - 12w

Total 59w

the Ellyrian Reaves look strong and so do the Thundertusks (6 MW on a 2+) also with the buffs the saurus warriors look quite formidable.

Gorthor21
23-07-2015, 13:43
so for skaven it would be something like
ikit claw 6w
warlord 5w
20 stormvermin 10w
ratling gun 3w
warplightning cannon 5w
11 jezzails 22w

seems pretty reasonable for a ranged list

iSHAKA
24-07-2015, 00:57
so for skaven it would be something like
ikit claw 6w
warlord 5w
20 stormvermin 10w
ratling gun 3w
warplightning cannon 5w
11 jezzails 22w

seems pretty reasonable for a ranged list

Yeah the stormvermin + warlord look devastating. If there is a 20 wound cap for each warscroll then you have to many jezzails and the warplightning cannon is 6w. how about dropping two jezzails and taking a second rattling gun WS to support the stormvermin, some thing like.

ikit claw 6w
warlord 5w
19 stormvermin 19w
ratling gun 3w
ratling gun 3w
warplightning cannon 6w
9 Warplock jezzails 18w

Total 60w

??

Gorthor21
24-07-2015, 02:37
i was thinking about the characters when i put the warplightning cannon on there hah. the second ratling gun would be a good addition.

Ayin
24-07-2015, 04:52
The 20 wounds Warscroll cap is crippling to so many non-elite units. It basically hamstrings any Empire State Troops who begin seeing their special rules above 20.

innerwolf
24-07-2015, 06:02
The 20 wounds Warscroll cap is crippling to so many non-elite units. It basically hamstrings any Empire State Troops who begin seeing their special rules above 20.

I agree. This limit should be upped for units with advantages at 30, as they are intended to be fielded in greater numbers.

iSHAKA
24-07-2015, 07:21
I agree. This limit should be upped for units with advantages at 30, as they are intended to be fielded in greater numbers.

There seems to be ups and downs with increasing the wound limit per warscroll. on one hand it begins to make couple horde unites viable but if one warscroll can account for half your army size (if there is a 30 wound cap on warscrolls in a 60 wound army) then we could see armies of just one type of unite + a hero. two big blobs of state troopers and a hero. though this may not be a bad thing it does also allow other unites to get much bigger that probably shouldn't be. For instance i could take nothing but Ellyrian Reaves + a hero or an army of just Warplock jezzails.

I see the 20 wound cap and the unites that benefit from large numbers sort of like a monster that degrade as they take wounds. sure 20 state troopers or clan rats would be strong but then your game is about protecting that unit so it can keep its bonus when it comes time to deal damage. sort of like the Thundertusks in the Ogre Kingdoms list, really powerful unless they start taking wounds.

maybe we could say that there is a 30 wound cap on warscrolls but if you go over 20 wounds you can not take more then one of that warscroll in your army. that way you could have these powerfull mobs but then your army wouldn't be just a mod of one type of unit ?

I understand the method outlines in the first post isn't perfect but i don't think there will be a perfect method.

what are some other lists people have come up with ?

thesoundofmusica
24-07-2015, 08:15
We play something similar. I like this idea of comp because its very simple to tell a new player (or someone who is perhaps not too invested in wargaming but likes a good scrap, like my wife) that he/she can take 0-1 monsters etc. Instead of something silly like wounds*attacks*bravery. Yes its not totally balanced (but points never were anyways) and you will have odd matchups (again like was always the case) but it puts you near enough to enjoy a game of battleline.

We currently play:
1-2 heroes
1+ unit of 10+
0-1 monster
0-1 war machines
Max 2 shooty units (WMs included)
60-70 wounds

These are my lists

Bretonnians

Lord on steed x1
Damsel x1
Knights Errant x6
Pegasus Knights x3
Bowmen x24
Trebuchet x1

Totalt: 35 (68w)

Lizardmen

Slann-Mage x1
Skinks x24
Ripperdactyls x3
Kroxigor x4
Bastiladon x1

Totalt: 33 (64w)

Beastmen

Malagor x1
Wargor BSB x1
Ungor raiders x20
Bestigor x10
Harpies x5
Jabberslythe x1
Tuskgor chariot x2

Totalt: 40 (67w)

Dwarfs

Dwarf lord on shieldbearers x1
Runelord x1
Ironbreakers x10
Hammerers x10
Dwarf warriors x14
Gyrocopters x3
Gyrobomber x1

Totalt: 40 (63w)

Empire

General on steed x1
Demigryphs x3
Empire Knights x6
Halberdiers x24
Hellblaster x1
White wizard x1

Totalt: 39 (65w)

Nurgle

Epidemius x1
Nurglings x4
Plague drones x3
Plaguebearers x10
Plaguebearers x10
Plaguebearers x10

Totalt: 38 (68w)

Daemons look boring I know, havent got the models I want yet. Waiting for a GUO from the CreatureCaster Kickstarter for one.

Gorthor21
24-07-2015, 13:23
@thesoundofmusica, i agree that an outline like that is far easier to use than a basic wound with unit caps.
i was thinking that units with the low to hit and wounds rolld that get better with more models like clanrats, menatarms, or state troops should have a higher cap. it all ready depends on how you and ypure opponent want to play in the end because someone bringing a summoning army with nothing but 5 GD of Tzeentch is going to tear and army of single wound infantry apart. the game should be less about competitive play and more about fun games with old or new friends.
in my experience the point system was hardly balanced with the codex creep so doing away with that balancing factor leveled the playing field and asks people to be far or not have many friends to play with. the agreed limitations we put on the game for now, or in the future if an update for it isn't released, are the only way we can make this game work. i for one look forward to age of sigmars growth because it is such a big step away from previous additions. try fighting the eighth ed dwarfs with the 7th ed skaven and tell me how balanced it is at the end of the day.

Jack Shrapnel
24-07-2015, 17:44
Here's our local system:

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?411414-Age-of-Sigmar-Tourney-comp-system

We've been playtesting this quite a bit, and so far it seems to be working quite well.

Gorthor21
24-07-2015, 18:32
it seems pretty solid

RattrapKilo
28-07-2015, 16:22
As a 40k Tzeentch player and a big fan of the number 9, I can't fully agree on a wizard limit. It cripples a pure changer of ways list to much. Then again some of the endless summon shenanigans such a list could pull off I could be swayed the other way.

Which brings me to summons as a whole, with rules as written it truly is a double edged sword. You could be handing your opponent a victory as the summons count towards your overall casualties but not towards your overall starting total.

On to wounds as points, from what I've seen straight wound for wound points is not enough, even with the limitations on hero types and special names. Calvary is exceptionally strong and with most right around 2 wounds per, can punch a unit out cold worth twice their own on a charge. Not only that due to the model counts and sudden death rules a cav heavy force can easily get a sudden death pick and with the ease of first turn charges could end a match real quick.

If more depth were added to it though like basic troop guys only costing half a wound, or something to that effect it could be more effective. I still want to try a few more games with Rules as Written to see how much balance Sudden Death brings on its own. I think I may have an answer to "that guy" who wants to drop down 30 bloodthirsters. Ofcourse I could just get ground into rat paste too.

I agree with limiting warscrolls to a certain wound count, and not duplicating names, or hero spamming but to what extent is the problem. A base 20 wounds hurts the horde style armies, wizard limits hurt Tzeentch themes, and a pure wound for wound favors big baddies like minotaur themed beasts, ogres, and heavy cav units who will most likely pack just as much if not more punch and will probably get the sudden death rule.
With the varied tactical styles between factions it is hard to put a general catch all in place.

Overtninja
04-08-2015, 19:14
Because Sudden Death is based on model count, it behooves each player to try to match the model count of their opponent - which is more difficult for some armies, but still doable. If you are playing against, say, Ogres, all of whom are monster infantry and/or bigger, it would be a good idea to field lots of monsters or other multi-wound models of your own to counter it. As I said, though, this might not be feasible or potent enough - but if it's not, as the player playing against the Ogres above, you could also flood the board with way more models, cede Sudden Death, and focus on fielding an army that can prevent your opponent from achieving it.

Ogres, heavy/all cav, and monster mash lists are the only lists (outside the 'I'll just summon the rest of my models first turn GG scrub' ones :p) that really create this scenario, and for most people there'll be roughly equal model counts, and probably roughly equal potency with a mix of different troop types, stacking bonuses, command abilities and employed strategies.

On the topic of summoning, I suggest simply limiting casting to models that are on the board at the start of that magic phase. This prevents chain summons but still allows for lists that are trying to build an army through summoning - while giving their opponent the possibility of responding to the strategy.

Captain Marius
11-08-2015, 19:26
Weve limited summoning to just rezzing units that have been deployed already, essentially stopping first turn summon spam and making undead good at reanimating casualties, chaos good at summoning more of the same, and slann sort of good at super healing fallen lizardmen. If you can kill the summoners you can negate this, just as killing characters takes away the other crazy buffing abilities. Also we say summoned units cant act until the shooting phase, nixing chain summoning or other buffing abilities a big. Its working well for us, in conjunction with balancing armies by wound count, id be interested if it worked for others!