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Tato
24-07-2015, 15:17
After the evaluation of AoS, our gaming group has decided not to partake in this folly and stick with 8th ed. Though not perfect, this is a game which in many ways suits our gaming needs. However, since it looks like GW is not going to support and develop a more serious version of Warhammer other than belly-bashing AoS, we were also thinking about using our now extensive collection of models to also try out other fantasy gaming systems. There is KoW from Mantic. Players are developing their own systems like Openhammer. Thing is, we have no experience with any other fantasy system other than WHFB. Can anybody, basing on their personal experience, recommend any other game? A short description of what to expect as compared to 8th ed would be extremely appreciated.

heliodorus04
24-07-2015, 15:43
I checked out Kings of War 2. It has an elegant and easy to understand rules system. The rules are indeed tight and quality.

The bad news is that it has no meaningful fluff, which leaves me wanting for the following:
Characters with character. They are either magicians - see below - or basically the WHFB equivalent of banners. They don't do much, and KoW2 people are really happy about that. I was not.
Armies with flavor. There is so little difference between Ogres, Men, Elfs and the armies that it boils down to model preference and which of two universal special rules (to the game). Ogres reduce enemy morale by 1. Elves all get to re-roll 1s on attack. Moreover, the difference between unit types across armies is also meaningless. This is where the game rather lost me.
Magic system. KoW people argue that WHFB had a many redundant spells, which is true. But it had a staggering number of fun and unique spells that brought real fantasy flavor to the game. KoW people will point to the old Tzeentch 23 spell dice lists that ruined entire tournaments. I was never a tournament player; I'm a group gamer whose opponents would never bring broken lists without prior arrangement. Spells in KoW amount to about 5 or 6. A couple to damage, a couple to move units around, and a couple support. There is no magic phase. There is not duel between magicians to cast or dispell. Spells have a # of dice you roll (which varies by the power of the character casting it) and a hit number (roll that or higher and it's a hit). It is all considered shooting and conucted in shooting phase. Magic items are meaningless. I was seriously disheartened by its incorporation of fantasy elements. It plays like a napoleonics game.

Now, it has its fans; it is 'low fantasy' from what I hear. I cannot say enough about how excellent the rules system is from the standpoint of approachability, playability, consistency and elegant simplicity. And I think the company deserves a lot of praise for how it is behaving toward the WHFB community. Everything I have described as bad for me are things the fans really find to be better than WHFB.

Indeed, if it has a magic phase where casters could compete to cast and dispell, and if it had characters that could be outfitted to make them interesting (again, I'm not wanting hero-hammer, but high fantasy heroes) via magic items, it might be exactly the game I need and want.

jtrowell
24-07-2015, 15:50
If you want mass battle, and to give a new use to an existing large collection of fantasy miniatures, then Kings of War by Mantic is probably your best bet, and unless you want to play at a smaller level or really find their ruleset not to be for you, I would advise any Warhammer (former) player to test it first.

Avatars of Wars has finally released the english version of Warthrone, their new wargame, and it's more like Warhammer in that you manage attacks and damage on the individual model level rather than the unit. However only a few official army lists have been released for now.

In the skirmish level if you want something that look like AoS but with at least some attempt at balance, you have songs of blades and heroes and also Warlord by Reaper.

Beetween the two, Wargods of Aegyptus (and the late-to-come-after-the-kickstarter Wargods of Olympus) is somewhat like Warhammer 6th edition meets Warmahorde, with small units whose size is usually around 10 models, and one demi-god that is your main character (you lose if he dies), and your demi-god can improve if you play in campaign mode.

draccan
24-07-2015, 15:58
After the evaluation of AoS, our gaming group has decided not to partake in this folly and stick with 8th ed. Though not perfect, this is a game which in many ways suits our gaming needs. However, since it looks like GW is not going to support and develop a more serious version of Warhammer other than belly-bashing AoS, we were also thinking about using our now extensive collection of models to also try out other fantasy gaming systems. There is KoW from Mantic. Players are developing their own systems like Openhammer. Thing is, we have no experience with any other fantasy system other than WHFB. Can anybody, basing on their personal experience, recommend any other game? A short description of what to expect as compared to 8th ed would be extremely appreciated.

A lot of new 10mm models are coming out from alternative companies. You may want to play Warmaster again. Rules are free, very balanced and fun. And great models out there now!

Tokamak
24-07-2015, 16:02
End Times. It's amazing.

jtrowell
24-07-2015, 16:28
I checked out Kings of War 2. It has an elegant and easy to understand rules system. The rules are indeed tight and quality.

The bad news is that it has no meaningful fluff, which leaves me wanting for the following:


I think that you are not using "fluff" correctly. Fluff is the story part of the game, and if the Mantica world is not yet as developped as the Old world was, it is normal, you cannot expect for a young game to have as much history as 30 years of Warhammer. If you compare it to AoS however, I think that I prefer Mantica.

Also, there is plenty of fluff already available, just not in the free rules that are juste the barebones rules without fluff.

For exemple the orcs have a special character that is a powerful wizard, knows some healing magic (unique among orcs), and has slightly pointy ears that make other joke that he might be half elf (the history doesn't confirm if it is just an insult of if is true, he was abandonned when a baby among Orclings (think "snotlings") and was a slave among the other orcs until he snapped and make a massacre with his magic. Now he still prefer the company of orclings to his fellows orcs that only call him when they need his magic.
This is even represented in game with the option to upgrade one unit of orclings to be his "playmates".




Characters with character. They are either magicians - see below - or basically the WHFB equivalent of banners. They don't do much, and KoW2 people are really happy about that. I was not.


You have characters ridding big monsters in many armies that are powerful and tough, you have army banners that are cheap inspiring but not great fighters so usually kept safe behing your troops (like in most battle in history with similar banners), you have wizards that can be pure support, others that will snipe your opponents, somes with deadly but short ranged spells that will act as a last defense of that will protect your flanks against light units, and wsards that will control the flow of battle by moving units during the shooting phase.

You also have fighting heroes that can add a few attacks in a combo charge, or that can be used to hunt warmachines or light units (especially if mounted).
Finally you also have lord level heroes that mix fboth a decent fighting level for a hero (just don't expect an human general to fight on equal ground with an infantry regiment) as well as inspiring nearby units like an army standard.

What you wont have is a wizard that will win the game by itself with one big spell or a hero on dragon that is so powerful that he can wipe the whole opponent army by itself.

Kill a few units, especially if they have been damaged by magic or shooting before ?
Of course a dragon should be able to do that if used correctly, but if you just throw it to the front of a spearmen horde without support, you're wasting his potential.



Armies with flavor. There is so little difference between Ogres, Men, Elfs and the armies that it boils down to model preference and which of two universal special rules (to the game). Ogres reduce enemy morale by 1. Elves all get to re-roll 1s on attack. Moreover, the difference between unit types across armies is also meaningless. This is where the game rather lost me.


Have you really tried the game ? I could take your decription and say that "in Warhammer there is little difference beetween elves and Ogres because elves are just like humans with speed of asuryan and ogres are like big humans with stomp", and it would be an unfair description.

The army special rules are nice, but they are not the only difference beetween them.

Large infantry like Ogres for exemple usually get a large number of igh strength attacks but they tend to have low nerve value compared to normal infantry units of similar points costs, so shooting or faster units like knights that can damage them before they get to hit can be very dangerous for them. Elves have the elite rule that give an universal reroll of 1s on all to hit rolls (including shootings and spells), they also have some of the best archers in the game, and you have almost all of the units thems that Warhammer has.

I think that you are confusing the amount of special rules with deepeness of the rule. Don't ask how many special rules or different abilities the armies have, just think of all the different archetypes that an army might have or need and look if the rules give a feeling of the archetype when compared to others units.

Elves spearmen that are better fighter that humans thanks to long years of experience and training ? Uou have them in the rules
Elves archers that are among the best ? Yep.
Hybrid unit of spearmen and elves ? You got it
Veteran elves with great weapons ? Palace guard is there
Elven knights ? Yes they are there
Elven ballista ? Yep, and you got also a sort of napalm thrower that is dragon themed.
Elven wizards ? Yes again, and among the most powerfuls in the game (spells at high level, plus elite rule)
Elven lors on dragon ? no problem
Elven on griffon ? the elven drakon option is perfect for you Island of Blood model
Elven chariots ? You got them, they hit hard on the charge but don't be tarpitted
And I didn't even list the nature creatures (forest spirits)

Want more options to have your swordmasters be different from your white lions and phoenix guard and not just use the same palace guard profile for all three ?
Just use the palace guard but with magic artefacts to upgrade each unit in a different way (artefacts can equip normal units in KoW). For exemple the brew of strenght on a palace guard will make the unit strike even harder and be perfect to represent the white lions.



Magic system. KoW people argue that WHFB had a many redundant spells, which is true. But it had a staggering number of fun and unique spells that brought real fantasy flavor to the game. KoW people will point to the old Tzeentch 23 spell dice lists that ruined entire tournaments. I was never a tournament player; I'm a group gamer whose opponents would never bring broken lists without prior arrangement. Spells in KoW amount to about 5 or 6. A couple to damage, a couple to move units around, and a couple support. There is no magic phase. There is not duel between magicians to cast or dispell. Spells have a # of dice you roll (which varies by the power of the character casting it) and a hit number (roll that or higher and it's a hit). It is all considered shooting and conucted in shooting phase. Magic items are meaningless. I was seriously disheartened by its incorporation of fantasy elements.


Dragons fly and breathe fire, nature spirit move in a forest like if it wasn't there, wizards throw fireballs and lightning bolt, or heal the wounded (raise the dead if you are a necromancer), what exactly is missing ?

And the magic artefacts ? What about the diadem of dragonkin that can give an unit, any normal unit, a powerful breath attack ? Or the brew of strength that can make an unit of speramen strike has hard as orcs ? Or the blessing of the gods than make any one unit Elite (like the elves) ?

Tell me, are you really thinking that it's not high fantasy enough, or are you just longing for the old warhammer ruleset ?

Sure, magic was more complex in Warhammer, but also a separate mini game that didn't fit with the rest of the game, with spells potentailly so powerful that they would be impossible to price correctly and might decide games by themselves not by tipping a balanced fight at the right moment, but simply by obliterating one or several key units with just one casting, the equivalent of sending bombers against a medieval army.



It plays like a napoleonics game.


Is that supposed to be bad ? Wasn't Warhammer supposed to be an historical wargame with a point of fantasy and not a duel of monsters and others bigs models with a few soldiers in the middle ?



Now, it has its fans; it is 'low fantasy' from what I hear. I cannot say enough about how excellent the rules system is from the standpoint of approachability, playability, consistency and elegant simplicity. And I think the company deserves a lot of praise for how it is behaving toward the WHFB community. Everything I have described as bad for me are things the fans really find to be better than WHFB.

Indeed, if it has a magic phase where casters could compete to cast and dispell, and if it had characters that could be outfitted to make them interesting (again, I'm not wanting hero-hammer, but high fantasy heroes) via magic items, it might be exactly the game I need and want.

A lord on a dragon that fly, breath fire, and can do some heavy damage is not high fantasy enough for you ? Or is it that you want the game to revolve around the characters rather than the army itself ? If so, then what you want *is* a Herohammer game, or maybe a skirmish game where an individual impact will have more importance, and not a mass battle wargame.

Maybe then games like warmahorde or Wargods where your main character is a demigod or similar powerful entity and the rest of the troups just there to protect and help him would better fit your need ?

Maccwar
24-07-2015, 16:30
The bad news is that it has no meaningful fluff,

The hardback book has a quite a lot of fluff, there is also the bloodstone of cerillion and various fluff bits from the old Mantic Journal. The now out of print v1 expansions contained loads of background material as well. Granted there is a fraction of the volume of material available over the years from GW but it is growing constantly. The first expansion for KoW2 coming later this year will have the fluff for all of the additional army list too adding them into the KoW world.



Armies with flavor. There is so little difference between Ogres, Men, Elfs and the armies that it boils down to model preference and which of two universal special rules (to the game).

The differences may look slight on paper but the play styles are completely different.

ScruffMan
24-07-2015, 17:01
Could somebody point me to somewhere where I might be able to find a couple of good balanced (against eachother) lists to test out KoW? Feel I should be giving it a go to feed my mass ranked needs but feel that a non GW game might not be seen again if the test game is not enjoyable.

The_Real_Chris
24-07-2015, 19:05
A similar thread...

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?410157-What-other-mass-ranked-fantasy-wargames-are-there

There are others.

Sothron
24-07-2015, 19:28
I honestly have never even looked at Warhamhordes or KoW or any other game system. Is there anything out there that has any fluff and lore to it like WHFB? I've heard KoW has good rules but there's nothing to the setting.

Longstrider
24-07-2015, 19:49
I checked out Kings of War 2. It has an elegant and easy to understand rules system. The rules are indeed tight and quality.


Contra some of the responses (and I am a HUGE fan of KoW) I think you're pretty accurate about Kings of War. And you're correct in that some of the things you don't like about it (which is fair enough) are things many of its proponents do like.

If you looked at the free rules though, one thing that stands out is that magic artifacts aren't there - and those can be added to provide a USR to a unit, so you can come up with some differentiation between two otherwise similar units. To be fair, some of the differences in the lists are quite subtle - because stats are so abstracted in KoW, the variance between units isn't really as high as in WHFB, but the knock-on effects over the course of a few games really do start to bring out some of differences.

All told, KoW is good, but it's not the only game out there, and it's not for everyone. Warthrone (which is free from Avatars of War) looks like a lot of fun, but we're still awaiting army lists. War is Coming, from Shieldwolf Miniatures (whose kickstarter sadly didn't get too far) is still in development. Armies of Arcana and Mighty Armies are pretty good, but I'm not sure how active the producers of either still are. Good games though. GW's on War of the Ring is perhaps comparable to KoW in the sense that it goes for simplicity rather than intricacy. Of course, if you're okay playing unsupported, there are 8 editions of WHFB as well.

As to background: WHFB has been around for ages and has tons of fiction published specifically for it. Nothing in terms of Mass Battle games comes close. Warmahordes has a lot, but it's a different type of game entirely and because their background is an ongoing story there's not as much fleshing out of stuff in the past, though their magazine usually has some good background articles and there are short stories and ebooks that do so. Alternatively it's easy to just play a game and still refer to the Warhammer world background, or set it in any number of other long established worlds.

EDIT:
I will add that there are people who've done various attempts at making Fantasy lists for historical games, of which some might suit.

taurus-marstein
24-07-2015, 20:19
Hello,
I am among the group working on independent rulesets. I have about 40 pages of a BRB fleshed out with about 15-20 left.

My main problem is not with warhammer, I love this game, it's that GW won't be doing a 9th ed. I personally believe that the changes between editions (whether they were good or bad) made the game interesting and fun. So even though cavalry was way too good in 7th and got nerfed in 8th, that's fine with me: because the game was still alive with new fun experiences.

For instance: did you ever see a deathstar unit in 6th ed? No.

So i'm not trying to save WFB, or claim that my rules are the best, the only goal I have is to support a this game's core ethos: a game of fantasy battles, while simultaneously allowing players to have new fun experiences with the rules.

Real fast bullet points of my ruleset (so far):
- alternating activations (works perfectly for 3+ player games) which includes "orders" like "march", "charge", "shoot", "retreat", "reform", etc. Where each unit gets one order a turn.
- limiting the strength of magic while also making it somewhat simpler of a phase (not looking through 64+ spells to decide what to cast...)
- adding a discipline mechanic that is similar to one of the stats in 3rd ed to govern unit cohesion (like reforming, performing manueveres, passing panic maybe, or getting an effective charge reaction)
- Armor piercing is its own stat, not tied directly to having High Strength. So you could have S3 AP2
- different VP's, missions, etc. That promote smaller units as well as large ones, to make MSU possible
- less special rules, like there won't be ASF or ASL, just being I1 or I10
- simpler psychology especially when it comes to fear, terror, and panic.
- less army specific or unit specific random special rules.
- combined profiles for ridden monsters.

Anyways if any of that interest you, I hope you'd consider trying my ruleset when it's done.

Otherwise, goodluck with KoW and all that stuff.

Commissar von Toussaint
25-07-2015, 03:45
I shall once more indulge in shameless self-promotion and note that my own system (it's in my signature) is available and has WHFB conversion lists out there. If there isn't a list (or the list doesn't suit you) let me know and I will build one.

Basically you can use whatever fluff you want and avail yourself of better mass combat rules. If you want to take the time, there is a thread on its development and you can see how it was built. There are also free downloads of the various army lists I've already put together.

Mawduce
25-07-2015, 04:36
Kings of War
Mordheim
DnD (I need to say something about this. Your DM needs to help you here. Take the leadership feat and use the leadership rules as a base to help build your forces. You can find a way to slowly build the force from infantry to cav and cannons you buy after looting or taking villages... whatever. We used to do it in our games and it was really fun.)

GrandmasterWang
25-07-2015, 06:08
I honestly think you and your group will probably have the most fun sticking with 8th and house ruling and of the niggles you don't like about the ruleset.

It's what my group does and imo 8th with house rules is by far the best mass fantasy battles ruleset available.

KOW we have sampled but we just found it more "bland". Also we like removing models as they are killed. It's kind of satisfying seeing the enemy's force get whittled down by your own.

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk

taurus-marstein
25-07-2015, 06:20
Swedish comp and ETC are working together on a 9th edition ruleset that seems to be 90% the same as 8th edition. You should check it out. Sorry i'm on my phone so I can't copy-paste the link, but it's on the "swedish 9th" topic on the warhammer general discussion.

Autumn Leaves
25-07-2015, 06:57
Kings of War is the only contender out there at the moment and it's heavily supported by an extremely community minded management.
It's High Fantasy, no question.
The only real visual difference between KoW and WFB is that the units in KoW are generally bigger and thereby more impressive on the table, coupled with the unusual aspect in that in KoW miniature removal from casualties does not take place so the table stays pretty the whole game.
I'm not keen on the 'no miniature removal' aspect because it makes it hard for me to keep track of whats happening on unit by unit basis in my opponents army but it does it keep the game flow and it's very quick to play compared to WFB.
I can play two games of KoW in the time it takes to play a single game of WFB.

NagashLover
25-07-2015, 21:17
I checked out Kings of War 2. It has an elegant and easy to understand rules system. The rules are indeed tight and quality.

The bad news is that it has no meaningful fluff, which leaves me wanting for the following:
Characters with character. They are either magicians - see below - or basically the WHFB equivalent of banners. They don't do much, and KoW2 people are really happy about that. I was not.
Armies with flavor. There is so little difference between Ogres, Men, Elfs and the armies that it boils down to model preference and which of two universal special rules (to the game). Ogres reduce enemy morale by 1. Elves all get to re-roll 1s on attack. Moreover, the difference between unit types across armies is also meaningless. This is where the game rather lost me.
Magic system. KoW people argue that WHFB had a many redundant spells, which is true. But it had a staggering number of fun and unique spells that brought real fantasy flavor to the game. KoW people will point to the old Tzeentch 23 spell dice lists that ruined entire tournaments. I was never a tournament player; I'm a group gamer whose opponents would never bring broken lists without prior arrangement. Spells in KoW amount to about 5 or 6. A couple to damage, a couple to move units around, and a couple support. There is no magic phase. There is not duel between magicians to cast or dispell. Spells have a # of dice you roll (which varies by the power of the character casting it) and a hit number (roll that or higher and it's a hit). It is all considered shooting and conucted in shooting phase. Magic items are meaningless. I was seriously disheartened by its incorporation of fantasy elements. It plays like a napoleonics game.

Now, it has its fans; it is 'low fantasy' from what I hear. I cannot say enough about how excellent the rules system is from the standpoint of approachability, playability, consistency and elegant simplicity. And I think the company deserves a lot of praise for how it is behaving toward the WHFB community. Everything I have described as bad for me are things the fans really find to be better than WHFB.

Indeed, if it has a magic phase where casters could compete to cast and dispell, and if it had characters that could be outfitted to make them interesting (again, I'm not wanting hero-hammer, but high fantasy heroes) via magic items, it might be exactly the game I need and want.

Well said and accurate. V2 looks to improve some things but it still obviously fails to scratch that certain itch. Still, bought the V2 set because overall I enjoy Mantic's work (Deadzone and Dreadball specifically) and I tend to be the one in the area that turns others onto different game systems, so KoW might not be for me but it might be for someone else (so I'll play a few games with people to introduce them).

KoW is very linear in its system, this makes it easy to get into, easier to balance but still allows for some depth. Then again it isn't near as in depth in other areas as WFB, Malifaux, Infinity or other systems (I bring up skirmish games because limiting a discussion for the point of trying to make something seem better "I.e. they aren't mass battle games!" is a poor testament to the quality of the game itself) but if it was why would I play it? Variety is the spice of life and it's why I play over 8 different miniature games.

To the point, KoW isn't WFB. Depending upon what the player is looking for, KoW can be a bad fit for them. Which is fine, KoW isn't perfect nor is it terrible (insert any system for that matter).

Bst advice TC is to give KoW a shot. The rules are free but be aware the full rules are available ala the V2 rule book itself (someone please correct me if players can access it some other way that isn't to pay). Still the core of the system can be played and best of all you can use your WFB models.

If you're looking to venture out of the mass fantasy battle settings I would recommend looking into Malifaux, Wargods: Aegyptus/Olympus and Warmahordes (Hordes more so if you want something closer to "normal" fantasy like things).

Moirdryd
25-07-2015, 22:04
The KoW free rules are the Game Rules and it has 11 Army lists that are 60-80% of the Full Army Lists and No Artifact (magic item) rules. The Book that's due (Hardback, not the smaller soft back gamers book) out has all the background info for the world of Mantica, both Books and the pay for PDF include the Full Army lists for the current Armies and all the Artifacts for units and characters. However there are links for the BetaTest rules spreadhseet at it's final update before the V2 rules were finalised that includes the as yet unreleased army lists too for the new factions as well as the expanded lists for the existing factions and all the artifact rules etc, these are free and linked to on the Mantic Forums.

taurus-marstein
25-07-2015, 22:37
There's nothing wrong with KoW, but it's not a warhammer substitute. There's no random effects, no model removing, no power characters, and the fluff is boring.

Warhammer was truly one of a kind. Suggesting someone should play KoW instead is like suggesting they should drink Pepsi instead of Coke: there's just no comparison, Coke is way better.

snyggejygge
25-07-2015, 23:17
There's nothing wrong with KoW, but it's not a warhammer substitute. There's no random effects, no model removing, no power characters, and the fluff is boring.

Warhammer was truly one of a kind. Suggesting someone should play KoW instead is like suggesting they should drink Pepsi instead of Coke: there's just no comparison, Coke is way better.

That depends on who you ask...
I prefer the world of warhammer & its fluff, I even prefer the list building in warhammer but gamewise I think Kings of war is better balanced with better streamlined rules. Warhammer was going out of hand with all the special rules, I was already moving away from it before AoS hit us.
So consider me a person who favors Pepsi or not, does not matter, in your opinion warhammer was better, imo it wasn't, KoW doesn’t need comp or not be a douche rules attached to it, it's so balanced in itself it works anyway.

Mawduce
26-07-2015, 00:42
There's nothing wrong with KoW, but it's not a warhammer substitute. There's no random effects, no model removing, no power characters, and the fluff is boring.

Warhammer was truly one of a kind. Suggesting someone should play KoW instead is like suggesting they should drink Pepsi instead of Coke: there's just no comparison, Coke is way better.

Until you find you can add all that stuff in if you want with your play group. I'd talk about it before hand, but it's do able. Like in 40k, you don't need to have random weather but you can. You can create power characters if you want with old 8th rules or some other system and make it fit. No one is holding a gun to your head where you MUST play by this book and if you don't you die.

Commissar von Toussaint
26-07-2015, 00:44
Warhammer was truly one of a kind.

Right. Here is the full-on pitch.

Let's say you want a game where your WHFB models can be used with zero modification, even down to unit composition.

Conqueror is your game.

You want epic characters doing epic things, but not dominating the battlefield.

Conqueror is your game.

You like the simplicity of the IGO-UGO system but would like there to be more interactivity.

Conqueror is your game.

You prefer special rules for chrome, but want the baseline stats themselves to showcase unit power and effectiveness. You want elves to crush goblins because they are awesome warriors with solid stats, not rules-mongered into victory.

Conqueror is your game.

You want magic that can affect the battle and inflict damage, but not wipe out whole units at a time, and you want the choice of using magic to be a positive one, not just a need for scroll caddies.

Conqueror is your game.

You want the actual hack and slash of battle to decide your engagements rather than modifiers and combat resolution points.

Conqueror is your game.

You want units to have the ability to "turtle up" and defend all flanks if needed, but have other units that can skirmish.

Conqueror is your game.

This game was developed over five years on this very site. You can go and read its progression in real time and even write the designer and say "Build me a Lizardman list that includes these models," and it can happen.

Want to design your own unit? The rules for that are in the back, including how to do the points.

One thing Conqueror does not have is fluff. That's up to you. I'm working on a fantasy novel and I may eventually add that to Conqueror but what I set out to was design a superior mass-battle fantasy game. It goes faster, is more balanced and yet has all the features that people want (except good graphics, because I suck at that).

I designed the game because I knew 6th ed. was going away (which I liked) and I didn't feel like upgrading. I also felt that while 6th was good, it has some serious issues that went back into some of the core design decisions. So built a better Warhammer (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?19917-Building-a-better-Warhammer)(to coin a phrase) and now you can play it too. Want to know what your army list will look like? Ask and you shall receive.

I doubt Kings of War will do that for you.

taurus-marstein
26-07-2015, 02:12
Wow I will check that out!

I have every faith in fan-made rulesets (i'm writing one myself) as we, the fans, don't care to sell models. We just want a fun game. So we know best what to do to make that happen, and we uniquely have the desire to see that perfect game exist.

Commissar von Toussaint
26-07-2015, 20:09
What armies do you play? I can post the lists so you can see what they look like.

samael
26-07-2015, 21:32
Right. Here is the full-on pitch.

Let's say you want a game where your WHFB models can be used with zero modification, even down to unit composition.

Conqueror is your game.

etc.. [/URL.

Colour me intrigued, book bought, well played sir!

taurus-marstein
26-07-2015, 22:11
What armies do you play? I can post the lists so you can see what they look like.

I play high elves, Empire and skaven.

Commissar von Toussaint
26-07-2015, 23:55
217810Well, here are the High Elves and Empire. I haven't developed a Skaven list, but will get to work.

As you look them over, remember that Conqueror is a different system, so things won't work in exactly the same way. The units will, however, fulfill the same role.

For example, the High Elf spearmen have no special rules. That is because they don't need any. Same with the other elite troops.

Oh, and not all the units use the er, official name. You can guess why.:shifty:

Finally, if after playing a game or two, you think the feel is still off, let me know and we can adjust things. Conqueror is not Warhammer. It is better (which means a little different).

I own Chaos, Bretonnia, Empire, High Elves, Orcs, Lizardmen and Undead (which is why those lists are already built).

Of course one of the fun things about Conqueror is that if you want to make a new unit (or want me to come with rules for something you think should exist but doesn't), let me know and I can give them Official Sanction TM.

RedKnightSpecial
27-07-2015, 01:13
Picked up KoW and Frostgrave. My LGS had the 1st ed. 2 player box and Goblin army box for more than half off the day Sigmar released. I snapped em up and mentioned to the Guy working there that I had a feeling KoW was about to see a popularity surge even though no one here currently played it. I was right too, leagues are starting in August. I really like the look of your game, there, CvT. Unfortunately, my number one priority in choosing a game is players, then support. You have support, but I don't think you have players here.

My third priority is not giving GW money.

taurus-marstein
27-07-2015, 01:59
Yes the true difficulty is not finding good rules, its finding people who will play with you with those rules.

Commissar von Toussaint
27-07-2015, 03:02
True, but even GW had to start from zero back in the day.

If you like a game, you can tell other people about it and Conqueror has a very inexpensive cost of entry. Your group already owns all the models they need. :)

Not only that, but if you want to add a new unit or branch out into something different, you can get rules without too much trouble.

Avatar of the Eldar
27-07-2015, 03:07
Bought your rules when they first came out, CvT. Out of solidarity and appreciation for your effort. Hope AoS gives them some well-deserved attention.

Sincerely,
AotE

Commissar von Toussaint
27-07-2015, 03:15
Bought your rules when they first came out, CvT. Out of solidarity and appreciation for your effort. Hope AoS gives them some well-deserved attention.

Sincerely,
AotE

So that was you! Thanks! I wondered who it was. I thought it was my nephew but he said he didn't need to pay for it because he had the play test rules. :p

big squig
27-07-2015, 04:40
I checked out Kings of War 2. It has an elegant and easy to understand rules system. The rules are indeed tight and quality.

The bad news is that it has no meaningful fluff, which leaves me wanting for the following:
Characters with character. They are either magicians - see below - or basically the WHFB equivalent of banners. They don't do much, and KoW2 people are really happy about that. I was not.
Armies with flavor. There is so little difference between Ogres, Men, Elfs and the armies that it boils down to model preference and which of two universal special rules (to the game). Ogres reduce enemy morale by 1. Elves all get to re-roll 1s on attack. Moreover, the difference between unit types across armies is also meaningless. This is where the game rather lost me.
Magic system. KoW people argue that WHFB had a many redundant spells, which is true. But it had a staggering number of fun and unique spells that brought real fantasy flavor to the game. KoW people will point to the old Tzeentch 23 spell dice lists that ruined entire tournaments. I was never a tournament player; I'm a group gamer whose opponents would never bring broken lists without prior arrangement. Spells in KoW amount to about 5 or 6. A couple to damage, a couple to move units around, and a couple support. There is no magic phase. There is not duel between magicians to cast or dispell. Spells have a # of dice you roll (which varies by the power of the character casting it) and a hit number (roll that or higher and it's a hit). It is all considered shooting and conucted in shooting phase. Magic items are meaningless. I was seriously disheartened by its incorporation of fantasy elements. It plays like a napoleonics game.

Now, it has its fans; it is 'low fantasy' from what I hear. I cannot say enough about how excellent the rules system is from the standpoint of approachability, playability, consistency and elegant simplicity. And I think the company deserves a lot of praise for how it is behaving toward the WHFB community. Everything I have described as bad for me are things the fans really find to be better than WHFB.

Indeed, if it has a magic phase where casters could compete to cast and dispell, and if it had characters that could be outfitted to make them interesting (again, I'm not wanting hero-hammer, but high fantasy heroes) via magic items, it might be exactly the game I need and want.

While I agree that KoW's magic system is lacking, complaining about fluff doesn't really feel fair being that all the armies are almost carbon copies of WHFB. I don't like mantic's fluff much either, but being that my friends and I are just using our WHFB armies to play, it's like we're still in the old world.

taurus-marstein
27-07-2015, 04:49
Yeah pick the rules that work and then pick the fluff that you want. Even if that means you have lizardmen fighting Spartans, so be it. :)

jtrowell
27-07-2015, 10:42
Could somebody point me to somewhere where I might be able to find a couple of good balanced (against eachother) lists to test out KoW? Feel I should be giving it a go to feed my mass ranked needs but feel that a non GW game might not be seen again if the test game is not enjoyable.


You can download the rules and sample army lists fo free on Mantic site : http://www.manticgames.com/free-rules.html

What is missing from those free pdfs :
- the rules are complete, but there is only the default "Kill!" scenario (get points from ennemy units that you eliminated at the end of the game), the full rules have other scenarios
- the magic artefacts are missing from the free rules (note that artefacts can be used on normal units too, not only heroes, so you do have a form of customization)
- the sample army lists only have ~60% of the full lists, the rulebook will of course have the complete verison, but those samples are perfectly viables to test the game

Note that there has been a public beta where we had to test the full armies and artefacts, and the final beta is almost the same as what will be in the book, so if you want a look at the artefacts or the complete lists, check this preadsheet : https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1nhZLDFOHUXC2MCA6NwYQWr0HF2mSyvEWIlNH4oCtBeQ/htmlview#

All units are rather balanced, so you don't have to fear taking realy bad or overpowered units, take what you like from your available collection of models.

I would however advise for a first game that you try to have at least a few shooting options (including magic) as well as some fast units (cavalries and the like) so you get to test all the phases of the game.

Also, it is usually a good idea to have on average one source of inspiring (think "inspiring presence/BSB") per 500 point of the army, it's possible to do with less, but having enough to cover most of your army will be more forgiving for a beginner. Note that the army standards are not limited to only one and are a cheap way to get them, you usually move them behing your main battle line to keep them safe (but the lord level heroes can bring both inspiring and some decent combat ability)

Quiet Sage
27-07-2015, 11:03
HotT (Hordes of the Things), that's DBA Fantasy. If you don't like its single base & single wound units, you could use multi-model units and give those a couple of wounds for longer battles. Magic is a bit simplistic though.

Warmaster. Can be played using 28mm models btw.

And an advantage: both have historical companion sets. DBA is now in its 3rd edition, Warmaster Historical is OoP but still being played, and the newer WW2 version (Blitzkrieg Commander) is still going strong.

zoggin-eck
27-07-2015, 12:25
We've already had plenty of threads like this before, but if it's something really resembling Warhammer (as opposed to multi-basing and quite abstract like HoTT, Mayhem, Fantasy Rules!, Might Armies and others), I'd love to try the free rules for No Quarter.

https://noquarterwargames.wordpress.com/

https://noquarterwargames.wordpress.com/downloads/

Lots of things I like - Alternating activation, formations, magic simpler than WHFB but nowhere near as simple as KoW and close combat/weapon detail. Some I'm not so hot on. I only got as far as printing all the rules, reading them and stating up a couple of armies before asking why I simply wasn't playing WHFB :) I'd still like to try it out, perhaps edit the rulebook down to a lower page-count.

rmeister0
27-07-2015, 23:37
There's nothing wrong with KoW, but it's not a warhammer substitute. There's no random effects, no model removing, no power characters, and the fluff is boring.

Well, there is a contingent that find the lack of random effects and power characters to be a feature, not a defect. I've read complaints about those two very things on these very boards. They didn't used to call it Herohammer for nothing.

Longstrider
28-07-2015, 01:37
Taurus-Marstein, please do make a post here in general when your rules are up. They basis sounds intriguing.

I'll probably check out Conqueror this week too. Certainly even if it's not my cuppa, it's not like the price for the eversion is awful. That said, I hope it isn't your retirement scheme, CvT. :P

Other things: Hail Caesar is somewhat of a development out of Warmaster and Warmaster Ancients, and is pretty scale independent - as most multi-based games can be. There's a person doing up a free hack of it for Fantasy on Warlord's forum. Hordes of the Things is worth a try, but DBx is pretty distinct from the Warhammer style of game. Enjoyable, but quite different.

This is inapplicable to people wanting to look for tournaments or other sorts of organised play, but honestly if you're playing with some friends, it shouldn't be too hard to get them to try something different. We've all got the models already, and each of the games mentioned here is free or significantly cheaper than any versions of Warhammer. Worst case scenario, the two of you don't have the Best Time Ever for one game session.

Commissar von Toussaint
28-07-2015, 02:01
I'll probably check out Conqueror this week too. Certainly even if it's not my cuppa, it's not like the price for the eversion is awful. That said, I hope it isn't your retirement scheme, CvT. :P

Hardly. :D

I decided to put Conqueror out there because I thought people might appreciate an alternative to the churn 'n' burn of the GW treadmill. The advent of online publishing made it cost-effective to do so, though not particularly lucrative.

People may not know this, but Conqueror was built in the Warseer GW Rules Development Forum. When the rules were completed and I published them, I asked the mods to move it because it was no longer a GW game. It can be used with a variety of settings. That's why the thread is now in the Sci-Fi and Fantasy grotto.


This is inapplicable to people wanting to look for tournaments or other sorts of organised play, but honestly if you're playing with some friends, it shouldn't be too hard to get them to try something different. We've all got the models already, and each of the games mentioned here is free or significantly cheaper than any versions of Warhammer. Worst case scenario, the two of you don't have the Best Time Ever for one game session.

Yep. And even if the game is established, there is still that first session. If you like the game and if it's fun, other people will start to come on board.

theredknight
28-07-2015, 20:50
I play high elves, Empire and skaven.
from what you explain you will find your game in warthrone. all the warhammer fun but with an added layer of tactic with commanders supporting your orders to units, and a lot of nice new things like reactions, formations and alternated phases.

skaven army list for warthrone is available and HE list is said to be next
skaven for warthrtone http://www.avatars-of-war.com/downloads/warthrone_wfb_skaven.pdf
more lists and rulebook (all free) http://www.avatars-of-war.com/eng/web/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=59&Itemid=51

Commissar von Toussaint
30-07-2015, 23:35
As a followup to my earlier commitment, I'm about halfway through the Skaven list and anticipate having it done by next weekend (I don't get a weekend this week :( ).

Commissar von Toussaint
08-08-2015, 16:39
As promised, here is the Skaven conversion list.

218312

I offer it with the caveats that I did not own a Skaven army, and have not played against one in the last 10 years. I used Ravening Hordes as my basis for the conversion.

One of the challenges in doing these conversions is the way GW gave everything special rules - mechanics that are unnecessary in a better system.

To be a little more specific, WS in WHFB does not really count for much. The difference between WS 4 and WS 2 (which should be considerable) is really quite small in terms of overall odds. Strength is much more important.

So how can one reflect a highly-skilled yet fragile army like the various elf factions?

GW's solution was to use special rules. I'm not current on the new version, but in 5th and 6th (and I think 7th) just about every High Elf unit had a special rule because if one went by the baseline stats, they would get crushed by low-skill horde creatures.

In Conqueror, melee skill was restored to a position of primacy. Elite units have a minimum of special rules because they simply don't need them. What special rules I did create are more about atmosphere and flavor than fixing a flawed mechanic.

In the case of the Skaven list (or "Ratmen" so I don't get sued ;) ) the army rules I created keep the feel of the horde army. The basic rules are these.

1. Unlike other armies, Skaven units add double the normal bonus for outranking to their morale check. This reflects their philosophy of strength in numbers.
2. Conversely, when Skaven units are depleted, the take double the normal penalty on their morale check.

I'd like to explain one other aspect, which ties into my discussion of melee skill above.

Because Conqueror puts its emphasis on this initial 'to hit' roll (and combines toughness and the save), it is very difficult for horde units to cope with elites. On a limited front, the elites will basically grind their way through unit after unit of chaff ala the Spartans at Thermopylae.

The way to beat these units is similar: Turn the flank. However, Conqueror has the option for a unit to refuse its flanks and assume an all-round defense (the square formation). This eliminates the crushing morale penalties from flank and rear attacks, but the price is that it immobilizes the elite unit - it may not move or even pursue broken enemies.

The dynamic that results sees hordes slamming into the elites, breaking, rallying and coming back in wave after wave, slowly wearing down their vastly outnumbered enemies.

Alternatively, the hordes can move up missile troops and just gun down their immobilized enemy (hmmm, I'm reminded of a movie about this :D ).

My point is that the tactics change and become a little more realistic.

Anyhow, take a look, send me any feedback/corrections. This list hasn't been playtested, but feel free to mess with it or post your own version.

taurus-marstein
08-08-2015, 18:43
Commisar,
I will check out Conqueror. I did proceed with writing my own game though, I believe its playable at the moment and I will begin testing soon. Its basically WFB with alternating activations and some minor simplifications and alterations.

Here is the overview page if you wanna check it out:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1XCgkuLSDux94SVQMK783OnklDKwHM9NCVdEK9G7talI/edit?usp=sharing

Commissar von Toussaint
09-08-2015, 01:40
Commisar,
I will check out Conqueror. I did proceed with writing my own game though, I believe its playable at the moment and I will begin testing soon. Its basically WFB with alternating activations and some minor simplifications and alterations.

Here is the overview page if you wanna check it out:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1XCgkuLSDux94SVQMK783OnklDKwHM9NCVdEK9G7talI/edit?usp=sharing

Interesting.

I have one caveat on the alternating activation and that is in games where formations have facings (i.e. flank attacks are a big deal) it can be very hard to have an army advance without getting rolled.

While somewhat annoying, IGO-UGO allows an army to move forward as a whole, paying attention to alignment between units.

Conqueror prevents too much downtime because it uses an integrated turn sequence where the non-phasing player still has things to do. For example, both players shoot during the shooting phase, not just the phasing player.

The non-phasing player also has more options when a charge is declared foremost among them being the ability of cavalry to countercharge.

Because free measurement is explicitly spelled out in the rules, the non-phasing player is frequently checking ranges and plotting his response during the opponent's turn.

So I agree with you that WHFB could have been more integrated and I wanted you to know that this was one area I paid close attention to in Conqueror. I also noted your desire to 'rationalize' magic and that is also included.

Conqueror includes four schools of magic (Life, Light, Elemental and Death) and players are able to select the spells they want for their wizard from within a single school (no rolling dice or drawing cards). Upgrades and magic items can allow wizards to have spells from more than one school. In addition, I created a special class of spell called a "ritual" which requires no die roll - rituals take a turn to cast but they always work. Wizards can also choose to cast a normal spell as a ritual.

Rituals may not be dispelled.

The effect of this is to integrate magic into strategy and allow for more careful planning.

Magic is not dominating - there are no standalone game-winning spells, but if you choose to use magic (it is optional, not required), it is a great way to enhance your forces and build a cohesive battle plan. Take a careful look because a lot of what you want seems to already be in there.

taurus-marstein
09-08-2015, 04:53
Well I totally want to hear more about the magic! And interesting points about the alternating activations and flanking.

I have an idea: if you want to issue the same order to multiple units (for instance: move forward all at once) then you can do that in certain cases.

So if I had like 3 units of swordsmen all marching side by side, they can all activate simultaneously but only if they all do the same thing.

I wish you were in my gaming region. I'd love to try out your game and have you try out mine!

llort
09-08-2015, 05:41
KOW miniatures need work, but many like it. Maybe Warmachines. Flames of War. Battlelore for a "board game."

Check out:
https://onepagerules.wordpress.com/ (what simplified WFB should have been)
and of course....
https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/index/ (Star Wars miniatures game and X-wing and Descent )

Or just make and share your own rules.

Good luck.

Commissar von Toussaint
09-08-2015, 14:27
Well I totally want to hear more about the magic! And interesting points about the alternating activations and flanking.

I have an idea: if you want to issue the same order to multiple units (for instance: move forward all at once) then you can do that in certain cases.

So if I had like 3 units of swordsmen all marching side by side, they can all activate simultaneously but only if they all do the same thing.

I wish you were in my gaming region. I'd love to try out your game and have you try out mine!

Yeah, the cool part about the internet is you can meet people from the other side of the world with common interests. Unfortunately, they are still on the other side of the world.

Regarding activations (that is from a conceptual/design standpoint) the thing to remember is that you are trying to break up continuous events.

There are a few games (very, very few) that allow simultaneous actions and reactions (I'm speaking of boardgames, not computers). For this to work, you basically have to input orders and then have an execution phase. I actually designed a strategy game with this feature many years ago and people liked it. Back then there was no online publishing, so maybe I should dig it out for a second look. But I digress.

IGO-UGO has the virtue of keeping the movements of the two sides distinct and capturing the action/reaction nature of combat. Certain points can still be simultaneous (like resolving attacks) both because it is feasible to do so and realistic (when units crash into each other, everyone is swinging at the same time).

I believe WHFB has changed, but at the time I designed Conqueror, one of my gripes was that the chargers went first and if they killed the front rank, no one swung back. Our group had begun experiments years ago with "fill-in" (which I guess is called "stepping up" but it's the same concept: Guy in front of goes down, you "step up" and "fill in" his spot). When designing Conqueror I realized that the whole initiative concept was a waste of design space and that is why everyone goes at the same time in resolving combat.

What alternating activations do is break up IGO-UGO but it is still IGO-UGO at its heart. The difference is that you only get to move chunks of your army rather than the whole thing.

This leads to a couple of problems, one of which we already mentioned, which is keeping alignment in a game centered on linear warfare. The other is the problem of uneven sides.

In the real world, armies with too much articulation tend to fall apart in the heat of combat. The commander has too much going on, too much to keep track of, his staff gets bogged down and orders miscarry. Over the centuries the same thing has happened again and again: In peacetime, armies tend to become very articulated with many subordinate commands. With low operational tempos, this gives commanders finer control of the various pieces of their armies and also the side benefit of creating more general officer billets. :D

In wartime, this system almost immediately breaks down and fewer big divisions become the rule because it becomes impossible to control so many little (and often fragile) units running around. Historical examples of this abound, from Napoleon's reforms to the reorganization of the Army of the Potomac under U.S. Grant (note that Lee had already figured this out - using no more than three army corps) and even to the present day where the sprawling US Army structure has effectively eliminated the old Army-Corps-Division-Brigade system and now use divisions as almost purely administrative formations with combat power and control concentrated at the brigade level.

In alt activation, this truth is reversed: The commander with six units actually has an advantage over the commander with three. Not only that, but during play units will be destroyed or rendered inoperable, requiring a constant adjustment of the turn order.

For these reasons I opted to stay with an integrated IGO-UGO system. In fact, Conqueror rewards the army with fewer units during the setup because the player with the greater number must set out extra unit first and when dicing to see who has the first turn, the player with the fewer units gets a +1 to his die roll. This reflects the fact that an army with more articulation takes more time to set up and also more time to have orders issued to all of its subordinate commanders.

Another issue is the speed of play. Conqueror tends to go quickly - the turns play quite a bit faster than WHFB because I cut out so many special rules. Free measurement (which was forbidden in WHFB when I was designing it) allows the non-moving player to make his own measurements while his opponent is bringing up troops. For example, if you are advancing your line on my archers, I can be checking the distance for the upcoming shooting phase and starting to prepare my missile fire priority.

Let me walk you through the turn sequence so you get an idea of how it goes. We start with magic, which I will explain in a separate post. The phasing player casts his spells and then the non-phasing player uses whatever countermagic he has handy. Since many spells are based on enhancements (higher movement, bonus saves, extra attacks) the magic phase in many ways sets the table for the coming turn.

We then do movement. Movement in Conqueror is simplified and goes pretty quickly. Charges are declared first, then everyone else goes. Chargers may wheel, charge and then 'center up' - which is based on the notion that units will not simply touch tangentially but rather pile in once they make contact.

Defenders have three options: Flee, stand in place and for cavalry, they may make a command check to countercharge, which allows lancers to get their weapon bonus.

We then move to shooting, which is joint. The phasing player goes first followed by the non-phasing. Because this phase is integrated, there is no need for a "stand and shoot" charge response.

Melee combat resolution comes next. It is simultaneous with both sides rolling to hit and then making saves. If one side is charging, the defender makes a morale check. If it does not rout, the attacker makes one. If they do not rout, the combat will continue in the next turn. Morale is modified by casualties, previous results, previous losses, flanks, being outnumbered and so on.

Finally the turn ends with the rally phase.

As you can see, there is very little down time for the non-moving player. In every phase except the rally phase, he has something to do and decisions to make.

If you use an integrated turn sequence, IGO-UGO is every bit as good as alternating activations and I think it is better.

Commissar von Toussaint
09-08-2015, 14:46
Okay, now on to magic.

Magic in Conqueror is based on two basic principles:

1. Adding a wizard to your army should be an affirmative choice, not something done to deny the other player an advantage. There are no scroll caddies.
2. Magic alone cannot win the game. It is a support arm, like artillery or air power.

I mentioned that magic has four schools and each school has five spells and one ritual to choose from. Rituals are spells that always work but take a full turn to cast. Rituals are seriously powerful, but because your opponent knows it is coming, he has a chance to break it up (or run away! :eek: ).

All other spells have a difficulty to cast and you can get a casting bonus if upgrade your wizard to a master and selected complimentary magic items.

Most spells have a range and have instant effect, but there are also touch spells, melee spells (that is spells that can be cast while the caster and his unit are fighting) and persistent spells, which last throughout the turn.

The practical effect is to make magic a force-enhancer rather than the force itself. For example, if you plan to use your mobility to achieve victory, you might take a Life wizard and the spell Hasten, which adds +1 to a unit's movement score. Many spells do similar things, enhancing units rather than blasting them into oblivion (though there are some nasty damage spells, particularly in the Elemental school). :skull:

So if you did the math, there are 24 spells to choose from. This may or may not seem like a lot. I developed this list by taking the WFHB list (I think it was 6th) and looking at commonalities. Basically there were a lot of different versions of the same spell. Every spell in Conqueror has a unique effect. For example I have a fire spell, an ice spell and a lightning spell. Same thing, different element, right? Wrong.

The fire spell does more hits, the ice spell does fewer but hits harder and the lightning spell basically blasts clean through the unit like a bolt thrower.

One final thing: while the Death school does have a Raise Dead spell, you can't use it to make a whole new unit. I've always thought that was dumb (what, every battle is fought over a cemetery? :eyebrows: ). What Raise Dead does in Conqueror is allow the casting unit to animate the corpses of the models it has just killed to fight on their side. :eek:

Now that is cool. :cool:

Anyhow, let me know what you think about either topics discussed.

RedKnightSpecial
09-08-2015, 15:20
KoW if you miss WHFB. Frostgrave if you miss Mordheim. Actually-play Frostgrave either way. It is a good game and a fun game.

taurus-marstein
09-08-2015, 15:44
Very interesting! I think a lot of your magic ideas are pure gold.

I think you also have a good handle on realism of play and that is also neat. I would definitely want to play conqueror and also have you play Twilight Era.

We are kind of hogging this (probably dead) thread, though. Want to just email me instead?

Email: emcdunna@gmail.com

hoggle76
09-08-2015, 16:17
though unfortunately no longer in production, used to have a lot of fun with fantasy warriors by grenadier games. there has recently been a few kickstarters to get a republishing done, but original rules linked here http://www.grenadier.it/ . will need the rulebook, companion and any other applicable extra articles which they released with model releases in the 90s and can be found on the community pages for the game. its a block unit game, but with a lot of differences to whfb- there is extensive prebattle stuff like commanders speeches and reading the omens, theres threats between units, ammo for missile units and volley shooting, fairly slick combat system and its relatively easy to add units of your own though the lists covered most of the armies commonly seen in wfb and such in the 90's.

Commissar von Toussaint
09-08-2015, 18:23
Very interesting! I think a lot of your magic ideas are pure gold.

I think you also have a good handle on realism of play and that is also neat. I would definitely want to play conqueror and also have you play Twilight Era.

We are kind of hogging this (probably dead) thread, though. Want to just email me instead?

I think other people benefit from learning about the systems and offering their own thoughts. There is a Conqueror thread on Warseer (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?19917-Building-a-better-Warhammer) if you want to move over there.

The_Real_Chris
09-08-2015, 23:52
We probably should have a rules concept forum where people can go over best practice in different games. For alt activations I currently like the army block system so different wings of your Amy manoeuvre as one


Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk

Sothron
10-08-2015, 00:52
After trying out KoW I can honestly say unless they bring back real Warhammer I am done with GW in terms of fantasy. KoW is everything AoS should be: a faster game that also has strategy, rank and file tactics and has a large amount of playable lists. I can't recommend it enough.

big squig
10-08-2015, 01:17
After trying out KoW I can honestly say unless they bring back real Warhammer I am done with GW in terms of fantasy. KoW is everything AoS should be: a faster game that also has strategy, rank and file tactics and has a large amount of playable lists. I can't recommend it enough.

Ditto. I had moved to KoW during the middle of 8thed and never looked back. Now all of a sudden I have so many new opponents!

Dosiere
10-08-2015, 01:37
Yes Kings of War is pretty sweet. It's very simple, easy, and fast to play. I particularly enjoy not having to remove individual casualties. Sometimes it took me half and hour to rank my units back up after a game of Warhammer. The movement is also very clean and goes much faster than WFB. I do have an issue with no randomness to charges but that's really the only negative thing I can say about the way it plays.

If you're looking for a ranked battle game that's not WFB KoW is more than worth trying out the free rules for a few games and testing it out. Nearly every WFB mini is playable too without much fuss.

Sothron
10-08-2015, 02:19
It is kinda funny that at first I was surprised at how quickly the games went but it had plenty of tactics with it. The fact I can use my old Chaos Dwarf army again is amazing. There's like, including the beta, 15 or so playable armies I think. Maybe more? Not sure. Practically all of my WHFB models can be used in it.

Baragash
10-08-2015, 08:58
It is kinda funny that at first I was surprised at how quickly the games went but it had plenty of tactics with it. The fact I can use my old Chaos Dwarf army again is amazing. There's like, including the beta, 15 or so playable armies I think. Maybe more? Not sure. Practically all of my WHFB models can be used in it.

11 in the main rulebook
9 in the Uncharted Empires supplement due in October (to allow you to use other manufacturers models - not just GW, we had a good look around to see who else had sweet models people might want to get on the tabletop - 7 have fairly obvious sources of inspiration, the other 2 are much "fresher")
3 in the supplement after that (all Mantic IP - Twilight Kin remastered, Northern Alliance which is looking to be an ice-themed mixture of human barbarians and none human races but TBC, Ophidians which is a good human faction that should have undead and snake people)

gormaster
10-08-2015, 20:31
I just purchased Conqueror. Commisar, you had me when I read about counter charging. It has always driven me nuts to think my mounted troops are just going to sit there and be charged by foot troops? Many of the things you have posted here sound like the game I want to play!

I have several armies including Beastmen (my favorite). Have you done anything with them?

Sothron
10-08-2015, 21:31
11 in the main rulebook
9 in the Uncharted Empires supplement due in October (to allow you to use other manufacturers models - not just GW, we had a good look around to see who else had sweet models people might want to get on the tabletop - 7 have fairly obvious sources of inspiration, the other 2 are much "fresher")
3 in the supplement after that (all Mantic IP - Twilight Kin remastered, Northern Alliance which is looking to be an ice-themed mixture of human barbarians and none human races but TBC, Ophidians which is a good human faction that should have undead and snake people)

Whenever Empire of Dust is "official" that will be my main four WHFB armies I can field in KoW. I'm trying to remember if KoW has some kind of Mournfang Cavalry equivalent for my Ogre Kingdom army.

I am definitely excited about all of these playable lists. Unlike GW which seems determined to keep you the player from playing some cool themed armies (Chaos Dwarf, looking at you) Mantic seems to be about empowering the gamer. I'm hoping to see an equivalent to the Hobgoblin army from WHFB that we know exists in the Old World around the Chaos Dwarfs and Ogre Kingdoms but has no official rulebook to let you play them.

Baragash
10-08-2015, 21:53
Mournfangs can be used as Ogre Chariots ;)

Sothron
10-08-2015, 21:58
Mournfangs can be used as Ogre Chariots ;)

Do you have to affix some kind of chariots to the models or just substitute the model for the name/rules?

Jator
10-08-2015, 22:11
I'm hoping to see an equivalent to the Hobgoblin army from WHFB that we know exists in the Old World around the Chaos Dwarfs and Ogre Kingdoms but has no official rulebook to let you play them.

THIS.

In fact I have a draft for a fan-made Hobgoblin army list, but I really have my fingers crossed to see if the RC makes one. I don't put much hope on it, though: hobgoblins minis are not that common.

Baragash
10-08-2015, 22:55
Do you have to affix some kind of chariots to the models or just substitute the model for the name/rules?

Nope, both use the same base size and there's nothing else they could be confused with, just stick 'em in the list and on the table.

EDIT: I don't expect hobgoblins to appear anywhere in the near future, but that doesn't mean we won't tap that archetype eventually. The Goblin list should cover them as a good proxy at the moment.

Commissar von Toussaint
11-08-2015, 01:43
I just purchased Conqueror. Commisar, you had me when I read about counter charging. It has always driven me nuts to think my mounted troops are just going to sit there and be charged by foot troops? Many of the things you have posted here sound like the game I want to play!

I have several armies including Beastmen (my favorite). Have you done anything with them?

I have not, but they are on my agenda. I've been slowly building a Chaos army (seems a great time collect what with people bailing on WHFB :D ).

Part of the problem is that there are several incarnations of the various armies, so what people think of as "definitive" may vary.

So as not to clutter up this thread, it would be helpful if you could go to the Conqueror thread (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?19917-Building-a-better-Warhammer) and let me know what type of Beastmen (key units) you need on the list. That makes it easier for me and ensures you get the list you'd like.

Sothron
11-08-2015, 02:56
THIS.

In fact I have a draft for a fan-made Hobgoblin army list, but I really have my fingers crossed to see if the RC makes one. I don't put much hope on it, though: hobgoblins minis are not that common.

I am a huge Hobgoblin fan. Started with it being my favorite Spider-man villain but I love them in fantasy games. Play one regularly in Pathfinder and other RPGs. If you do a fan made list to field one I would definitely check it out. Hobgoblins are a mix of the dexterity of smaller goblins and the strength of orcs with some actual intelligence tossed in the mix.

Sothron
11-08-2015, 02:57
Nope, both use the same base size and there's nothing else they could be confused with, just stick 'em in the list and on the table.

EDIT: I don't expect hobgoblins to appear anywhere in the near future, but that doesn't mean we won't tap that archetype eventually. The Goblin list should cover them as a good proxy at the moment.

I really hope they get covered. In WHFB they are depicted almost like a Mongol horde type of military empire. That should make them stand out from how regular goblin/orc lists would play. Or at least I think so. :p