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mashkeyboardgetusername
26-07-2015, 14:07
Hello!

A question that's come up recently is how many attacks a model gets with paired weapons in Age of Sigmar. Looking at liberators (http://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls/warhammer-aos-liberators-en.pdf), (just as an example, a lot of heroes in the legacy warscrolls have weapon options (with associated bonuses for paired weapons) we could consider instead,) how many attacks would you say they make if they have two warblades or two warhammers each? I would have said 4, because they have 2 weapons each making 2 attacks and in AoS a model attacks with all its weapons, and then they get rerolls of 1 to hit as well. However I've seen arguments that the advantage of having the paired weapons is the reroll of 1s to hit and that's all, they only make 2 attacks in total.

Another aspect is things like the bloodreavers which have "reaver blades", with an argument that they don't get extra attacks for multiple weapons on the (physical) model so why should liberators. Personally I think it comes down to whether the weapon is described as a singular or a plural, (e.g. "reaver blades" or "claws and fangs" are plural so you don't consider multiples, but "warblade" and "warhammer" are singular so you do,) but that's just me. Another comparison would be between a chaos lord with a pair of rune-axes (I would say 6 attacks total) and a skaven warlord with a pair of barbed blades (I would say 10 attacks total).

So, those are my interpretations. But, I'm not sure, so would like to know what the community round here thinks.

Many thanks!

P.S. I am aware there was a thread (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?410968-AoS-attacks-question) a while back on AoS attacks but wasn't sure whether I was better off starting a new thread or bumping one three weeks old. Apologies if I've got this wrong.

theunwantedbeing
26-07-2015, 14:39
1 weapon = one set of attacks with that weapon.
2 weapons = one set of attacks with each weapon.
2 of the same weapon = as above but also paired weapon bonus.

So a liberator with a warhammer gets 2 attacks.
A liberator with a warhammer and a warblade gets 4 attacks (2 from each, sure he isn't allowed this combination but that's how it would work if he was)
A liberator with two warhammers gets 4 attacks and benefits from the paired weapon bonus.

Some weapon entries cover all the weapons a model has, others only cover a single weapon.
It depends what the warscroll says the model is armed with and how those weapons are worded.

Harwammer
26-07-2015, 15:14
Some unit entries work differently.

For example one of Demigryph knights melee weapons is 'Lance and Sword', Pistolliers have 'Brace of pistols', and I think for entries like this the sum attacks from both weapons is covered by the single entry.

When I first read the rules for the different paired weapon entries, I thought you only got one set of attacks, regardless of how many of the weapons you wielded (the paired weapon rule for the entry representing the bonus for having two weapons), but if liberators are allowed to mix/match their hammers and swords then unwantedbeings explanation makes more sense.

splash
26-07-2015, 15:28
You get exactly the attacks listed for each weapon. The only thing that increases the number of attacks a model receives is any special abilities that directly call for such an action.

A chaos warrior armed with a hand weapon has 2 attacks. If the model is armed with 2 hand weapons, it has 2 attacks...but also gains Berserk Fury (meaning that it can reroll hit rolls of 1 when using two hand weapons).

An ork warboss armed with a boss choppa has 6 attacks. If the model is armed with 2 boss choppas, it does not have 12 attacks, but is specifically shown under the ability called Choppa Boss to have 8 attacks instead of 6 (please carefully note that the number of attacks are directly and specifically addressed in the rule).

A dark elf dreadlord carrying two exile blades still has 6 attacks (not 12); however, under the special ability called Exile Blades, the model can reroll hit rolls of 1 when using two exile blades.

Liberators gain 2 attacks if using a warblade, or two attacks if using a warhammer, but when using two of these weapons, refer to the Paired Weapons ability listed--the model can reroll hits of 1. They are not allowed to mix weapon types as the description clearly says "...Liberators are armed with a Warhammer in each hand, while others wield paired Warblades." It does not say that the model can have one of each.

Hero types make a set of attacks with each weapon as specifically listed. A chaos lord, for example, would make 2 attacks with is hellforged glaive, and three attacks with his ruinous broadsword, for a total of five attacks, but each weapon would be rolled separately because of the differing stats. There is no special rule for using both at once. If the model were equipped with a pair of chaos rune-axes, then the model gains 6 attacks and can use the special ability called Chaos Rune-Axes (which means, the model can reroll failed to hit rolls, not double the number of attacks).

So, no model increases it's number of Attacks just because it is carrying two or more weapons. It is the special abilities listed for the model that allows the players to do things when the model is armed with two weapons. Unless, of course, GW wants to claim differently someday.

jaceimba
26-07-2015, 15:51
1 weapon = one set of attacks with that weapon.
2 weapons = one set of attacks with each weapon.
2 of the same weapon = as above but also paired weapon bonus.

So a liberator with a warhammer gets 2 attacks.
A liberator with a warhammer and a warblade gets 4 attacks (2 from each, sure he isn't allowed this combination but that's how it would work if he was)
A liberator with two warhammers gets 4 attacks and benefits from the paired weapon bonus.

Some weapon entries cover all the weapons a model has, others only cover a single weapon.
It depends what the warscroll says the model is armed with and how those weapons are worded.

I don't think you would get 4 attacks, the benefit of 2 weapons is the paired weapon bonus. You check the abilities for the benefit of different weapon options. For example, ork boss get 8 attacks for dual weapons not 12.

Mozzamanx
26-07-2015, 16:59
I'd think that RAI, the model benefits from the listed rules and that alone. So a Liberator with 2 Hammers would still only make 2 Attacks, except they would now benefit from the paired weapons benefit. Similarly a Dreadlord with Exile Blades still makes 6 Attacks, but now he gets the rerolls.
I believe this is the case precisely because of things like 'Reaver Blades' and 'Lance and Sword' where multiple weapons are condensed into a single statline. Also, the arbitrary nerfing of the Warboss to 8A rather than 12A. Finally while the bonus is fairly small, so is the benefit for using a Shield. Very simply the difference between weapon loadouts seems to be fairly minor.

Of course, RAW I'd go the other way. The rules clearly state that a model attacks with all of its weapons, so if he has 2 Hammers you'd resolve each Hammer, effectively doubling his attacks. Of course this then leads to a massive list of units that are arbitrarily different, makes dual-wielding clearly superior over shields, requires fine-combing of the rules to work out what to do, and likely introduces a black hole of rules collapse somewhere.
So of course being GW, this is the RAW. :cries:

mashkeyboardgetusername
26-07-2015, 17:15
In a strange way I'm relieved we haven't come up with a definitive answer yet, I felt a bit embarrassed asking what could have been a stupid question, but it's definitely not a clear one.

The weird thing is we can keep coming up with examples on both sides that suggest it should be one way or the other. The orc warboss clearly says it's fewer attacks, (8 not 12,) the skaven warlord would maybe suggest otherwise (halberd + barbed blade is vastly superior to 2 barbed blades even though 2 blades is apparently the option that causes a "flurry" of attacks). The inconsistency across the warscrolls really isn't helping...

I personally still think it's extra attacks for two weapons (unless the weapons are specified as a set) mainly because in AoS often the simpler interpretation seems to be correct. But as you say, liberators (for example) seem so much better with two weapons if it is indeed 4 attacks.

thesoundofmusica
26-07-2015, 17:59
I think that the number of attacks you have is on your profile and that doesnt change regardless of what kind of weapon you wield. What does change is that different rules apply depending on weaponry as listed on the warscroll.

For example:
Gor have 1 attack on their profile.
The unit description says "some units fight with two gorblades while others fight with a gorblade and beastshield".
Having two weapons doesnt change the profile but instead we read on the warscroll that two gorblades give you re-roll 1s and beastshield gives you a save of 4+.

Thats how I read it.

mashkeyboardgetusername
26-07-2015, 19:07
I'm not sure about that, sorry. It seems to be now that the number of attacks made is tied to the weapon itself, not the model carrying it, hence my confusion as to whether more weapons always means more attacks.

thesoundofmusica
26-07-2015, 19:31
That makes little sense in the case of Great weapons vs dual wielding.
Example Beastlord:
Axe 6 attacks resulting in roughly 2 wounds against 4+ save.
Great Axe 3 attacks resulting in roughly 2,2 wounds against 4+ save.
As the opponents save gets worse, dual wielding gets better as should be.

BUT if we instead assume a dual wielding Beastlord gets 6 attacks per axe there is no reason to ever have anything other than dual wield. I think this goes for all warscrolls.
Dual wielding Axe 12 attacks resulting in roughly 4,15 wounds against 4+ save and 6,22 against 6+ save.

mhsellwood
27-07-2015, 01:42
Agreed with thesoundofmusica - if you run the stats on different loadouts most of them come in very similar if we work on the basis that each weapon gives you the weapon profile in the warscroll, and any advantage of dual wielding is as stated in the abilities section. So as another example a Dwarf Dragon Slayer has 6 attacks for his paired rune axes characteristic - if this was actually intended to be 12 attacks you would never choose the great axe.

RAW are:

You get to attack with each weapon in your description. In the warscroll the description references one of the weapon characteristics in the stat line. So, if you choose Runic Axes that references the 6 attack etc. stat line. There is also in the Abilities section a special rule which allows re-rerolls of one if you have a pair of Runic Axes.

Missile weapons are used in the shooting phase, melee weapons in the combat phase. No debates here.

The number of attacks a model can make is equal to the Attacks characteristic for the weapons it can use. I choose the Runic Axes option on the war scroll. The attacks characteristic for this is 6 attacks. At no point do the rules say that I get to attack with each weapon I have physically modelled on, rather that the number of attacks I have is based on the weapon option that I have chosen.

There is no rules support for suggesting that multiple weapons enable each weapon to have attacks equal to the weapon stat line as there is no rule that you get to attack with each weapon physically modelled on - only that the weapon options you have chosen from your war scroll give you the number of attacks for those weapons.

Necronartum
27-07-2015, 11:01
To be honest, I personally think it is a little unclear.

A Warrior of Chaos can opt to be armed with two hand weapons. A pair of hand weapons. A weapon in each hand. No amount of creative wording can deny that were we to count the number of hand weapons, we would find two.

Each model gets to attack with all the weapons it is armed with. In this Warriors case, he is armed with two hand weapons. Each weapon has two attacks.

I agree that it seems ridiculous. But I suppose the offset of having a single hand weapon is that you would instead take a shield. I play against Warriors of Chaos regularly and my Dwarves regularly get a beard trimming! Other units I have seen (Dwarf Dragon Slayer as a easily memorable example) have a combined named stat for paired or dual weapons which seems to clear up this ambiguity. I can only assume (probably incorrectly) that had Games Workshop wanted to create something different from the above they would have given the unit a fixed 'Pair of Hand Weapons' stat line.

splash
27-07-2015, 14:38
I'm going to repost this again because it seems that people are still confused even though common sense has been clearly demonstrated in this thread a couple of times.


You get exactly the attacks listed for each weapon. The only thing that increases the number of attacks a model receives is any special abilities that directly call for such an action.

A chaos warrior armed with a hand weapon has 2 attacks. If the model is armed with 2 hand weapons, it has 2 attacks...but also gains Berserk Fury (meaning that it can reroll hit rolls of 1 when using two hand weapons).

An ork warboss armed with a boss choppa has 6 attacks. If the model is armed with 2 boss choppas, it does not have 12 attacks, but is specifically shown under the ability called Choppa Boss to have 8 attacks instead of 6 (please carefully note that the number of attacks are directly and specifically addressed in the rule).

A dark elf dreadlord carrying two exile blades still has 6 attacks (not 12); however, under the special ability called Exile Blades, the model can reroll hit rolls of 1 when using two exile blades.

Liberators gain 2 attacks if using a warblade, or two attacks if using a warhammer, but when using two of these weapons, refer to the Paired Weapons ability listed--the model can reroll hits of 1. They are not allowed to mix weapon types as the description clearly says "...Liberators are armed with a Warhammer in each hand, while others wield paired Warblades." It does not say that the model can have one of each.

Hero types make a set of attacks with each weapon as specifically listed. A chaos lord, for example, would make 2 attacks with is hellforged glaive, and three attacks with his ruinous broadsword, for a total of five attacks, but each weapon would be rolled separately because of the differing stats. There is no special rule for using both at once. If the model were equipped with a pair of chaos rune-axes, then the model gains 6 attacks and can use the special ability called Chaos Rune-Axes (which means, the model can reroll failed to hit rolls, not double the number of attacks).

So, no model increases it's number of Attacks just because it is carrying two or more weapons. It is the special abilities listed for the model that allows the players to do things when the model is armed with two weapons. Unless, of course, GW wants to claim differently someday.

mashkeyboardgetusername
28-07-2015, 13:28
Hmm. The problem is "common sense" is not the same as "what the rules say" (and no, that wasn't an attempt to get onto someone's signature :)). The rules say a model attacks with all its weapons, and I still haven't seen any rule that says "paired" weapons don't count as two weapons. For the moment I can't help viewing things like the orc warboss as exceptions rather than trendsetters. Why those models might be exceptions I don't know, but that's how it seems.

A few other thoughts I've had on this: firstly a lot of people have modelled their stuff with shields, for example my own beastlord is modelled (under AoS) with a single man-ripper axe and a beastshield which I like and have no intention of changing. While some people will be modelling differently for AoS (putting shields onto the backs of stuff with two weapons for example for those models that can have two weapons and a shield) not everyone will. So to my mind it's often not 3 attacks vs 12 attacks, it's 3 attacks (with extra rend/damage) vs 6 attacks (with defensive bonus) vs 12 attacks.

The other thing is that liberators with 2 weapons vs liberators with shields may not be as straight up a choice as it first appears. Early impressions are that a lot of AoS is in synergy and buffs, which include increasing saves. A unit of liberators being buffed by a lord-castallant and standing in cover have a 2+ save, and when you have a 2+ save being able to reroll 1s is REALLY good (I would argue better than double attacks even). You can of course also buff their to hit rolls at which point rerolling 1s to hit gets better, but I'm going to put all that under "strategic decisions and list-building".

It may seem like I'm clutching at straws here, and perhaps I am, but at the moment I haven't seen anything to indicate why holding weapon A in your right hand and weapon B in your left hand means more attacks than holding weapon A in your right hand and another weapon A in your left hand (assuming for the sake of argument that weapons A and B each give the same number of attacks).

Necronartum
28-07-2015, 14:36
Hmm. The problem is "common sense" is not the same as "what the rules say"

This is my sentiment. And I have no axe to grind for this point. Dwarves gain no benefit whatsoever.

splash
28-07-2015, 17:44
Hmm. The problem is "common sense" is not the same as "what the rules say" (and no, that wasn't an attempt to get onto someone's signature :)). The rules say a model attacks with all its weapons, and I still haven't seen any rule that says "paired" weapons don't count as two weapons. For the moment I can't help viewing things like the orc warboss as exceptions rather than trendsetters. Why those models might be exceptions I don't know, but that's how it seems.

The rules do not say attacks with all of the models weapon modeled on the miniature. The rules do not say they double their attacks for paired weapons. The rules do say that models with paired weapons get certain benefits. The orc warboss is an actual excellent example, that model do not double its attacks with paired weapons. It's not an exception to the rule, it's an example. The rules say:

"The number of attacks a model can make is equal to the Attacks characteristic for the weapons it can use."

Notice the capital "A" in Attack characteristic. Refer to that statistic on a warscroll. It is not doubled for using paired weapons. That is the stat used without variation (aside from other special abilities, buffs and debuffs and such).


It may seem like I'm clutching at straws here, and perhaps I am, but at the moment I haven't seen anything to indicate why holding weapon A in your right hand and weapon B in your left hand means more attacks than holding weapon A in your right hand and another weapon A in your left hand (assuming for the sake of argument that weapons A and B each give the same number of attacks).

A chaos lord holds weapon A in it's right hand, and weapon B in it's left hand. By looking at the rules for the model, that model gains X attacks for weapon A, and Y attacks for weapons B. That's it. So, that models gains 5 total attacks, no more, no less. If the model were armed with the twin axes, that model gains 6 attacks, not 12. It is clearly shown that it gains 6 attacks, not 12. And because it is using those twin axes, it gains a special ability related to using those twin axes (called Chaos Rune-axes), it does not double its attacks.

Models with the option of having two different weapons are clearly shown to have separate stats for each weapon. That model attacks with all of its weapon. A model with paired weapons uses the stats for that weapon, AND GAINS the special abilities for having two weapons (such as Exiles Blades and Choppa Boss). No where does it say that a model doubles it's attacks, and there are examples of a model NOT doubling it's attacks; orc warboss gains 8 attacks, instead of 6--that's +2 attacks as his special ability to use two identical weapons at once. It does not read that he gains 8 attacks instead of 12.

I understand to some that the wording is confusing, but it doesn't need to be. It's very clear if one only just applies some critical thinking to it. Yes, perhaps GW should just have come out and said THIS IS THE WAY IT IS, but they didn't, they probably felt they didn't need to, and I agree with them--from what I read, it's clear and I am not confused as to how it works.

But, as I've said before, they could easily come out with an FAQ or something similar and tell us, once and for all, how it is done. If they want a model to double it's attacks, then they should just say now. Otherwise, it's not happening.

EDIT: my apologies for mixing "it's" and 'its" if it was done.

theunwantedbeing
28-07-2015, 18:07
"The number of attacks a model can make is equal to the Attacks characteristic for the weapons it can use."

Notice the capital "A" in Attack characteristic. Refer to that statistic on a warscroll. It is not doubled for using paired weapons. That is the stat used without variation (aside from other special abilities, buffs and debuffs and such).

You're making a logical leap that isn't there in the rules.

The issue stems from when a weapon is listed as a singular weapon, but the model is armed with two of them.
And this is confounded by being given a special rule for having two of that weapon.

So a model has a weapon in hand 1, and we use the attack profile for that weapon.
The same model has a weapon in hand 2, and we use the attack profile for that weapon as well.
If there are additional special rules then we apply those as well.


If the weapon in hand 1 and 2 was different there would be zero issue, but for some reason calling it the same name causes issues.

thesoundofmusica
28-07-2015, 18:54
How many weapons your armed with doesnt seem to matter except for the added bonuses shown on the warscroll.

1) the number of attacks is determined by the weapons the model is armed with
2) a models weapon options are listed in the description on its warscroll
3) the number of attacks is equal to the attacks characteristic for the weapons it can use

Nowhere does it say "make x attacks per weapon" or anything to that effect. Its quite simple. The benefits of wielding two identical weapons are on the warscroll, usually "reroll 1s".

splash
28-07-2015, 22:09
You're making a logical leap that isn't there in the rules.

No, I'm using common sense. No where in the rules is there an entry that states a model doubles its number of attacks if armed with two weapons. Not one single entry. The special abilities listed on the warscrolls cover paired weapons use.


The issue stems from when a weapon is listed as a singular weapon, but the model is armed with two of them.
And this is confounded by being given a special rule for having two of that weapon.

There is no actual issue, it's clear with examples that can be shown. I admit that people are confused, but there's plenty in this thread that clears that up. Now it's just starting to look like good old fashioned stubbornness for the sake of being stubborn.


So a model has a weapon in hand 1, and we use the attack profile for that weapon.
The same model has a weapon in hand 2, and we use the attack profile for that weapon as well.
If there are additional special rules then we apply those as well.

You almost got it. If model has a weapon in hand 1, use the statistics given. If the same model has another weapon in hand 2, use the exact same statistics given. In addition, use the special rules given for using two weapons.


If the weapon in hand 1 and 2 was different there would be zero issue, but for some reason calling it the same name causes issues.

Which is covered (see Chaos Lord as my example), so yes, there is no issue with that. Using two different weapons is different than using paired weapons of the same type.

I have clearly demonstrated my stance. Of course, players can play the game any way they want to--that's great! And if that means power-ubering it and allowing for double the Attacks, then fine, have fun with that. Just know that it's not an actual rule, and rules for using paired hand weapons are available and clearly listed on the relevant warscrolls. Unless GW says otherwise with a clear ruling that contradicts what's been written, doubling the attacks for using paired weapons is not going to fly in my games. I tend to follow the rules as written as closely as possible.

Once again, there is no entry in the rules that say a player doubles the attacks of his model if it is armed with paired weapons. Special abilities are where the bonuses come in.

Necronartum
28-07-2015, 23:10
Are we then deciding that a model armed with a Piddly Poker with 3 attacks and a Mighty Masher with 3 attacks makes 6 attacks or 3?

If we are indeed saying 6 attacks. Are we then saying that a model with two Piddly Pokers only gets 3 attacks and re-rolls 1's?

Because I can find nothing to support this argument in the rules. We are essentially saying that because a model is armed with the two of the same named weapon (and naming is the only problem here) that we are ignoring a precedent and assuming that because a another benefit is listed then that is what GW actually intended.

Ultimately, I suppose as you say its up to individual gaming groups to decide.

splash
29-07-2015, 03:37
Are we then deciding that a model armed with a Piddly Poker with 3 attacks and a Mighty Masher with 3 attacks makes 6 attacks or 3?

"We" are going by what the rules say. A model armed with a Piddly Poker will have exactly the number of attacks for that weapon listed in its warscroll. The same model armed with a Might Masher will have the same attacks listed in its warscroll. Thus, if it is 3 and 3 respectively, then yes, 6 attacks. That's exactly how it is. Look at my favorite example, a Chaos Lord armed with a Ruinous Broadsword and a Hell-forged Glaive. 5 attacks total, 3 with one, 2 with the other (roll them separately).


If we are indeed saying 6 attacks. Are we then saying that a model with two Piddly Pokers only gets 3 attacks and re-rolls 1's?

Yes. That's exactly how it works (until GW specifically says otherwise). "We" aren't saying a thing. The rules are.


Because I can find nothing to support this argument in the rules. We are essentially saying that because a model is armed with the two of the same named weapon (and naming is the only problem here) that we are ignoring a precedent and assuming that because a another benefit is listed then that is what GW actually intended.

You can find support for this argument if you just look at the rules, and the examples provided in this thread. It's clear. "We" aren't ignoring any "precedent". The rules clearly state:

"The number of attacks a model can make is equal to the Attacks characteristic for the weapons it can use." Not the capital "A" in Attack characteristics. That's the value used.

There are special abilities called "Choppa Boss", "Exile Blades", "Berserk Fury", "Chaos Rune-axes", "Choppas", and others that clearly state what happens when the unit is armed with paired weapons.

No where does it say that a model doubles it's Attack characteristic if using paired weapons, unless it is covered by special abilities listed on the warscroll.


Ultimately, I suppose as you say its up to individual gaming groups to decide.

That is true, and I stand by that, no matter how many attacks a model ends up having. Any game can be played any damned way the players agree to play it, including this one. And if GW wants us to double the number of attacks, then so be it, that's how I'll play it from that point forward. All they have to do is tell us so. Maybe the sooner, the better looking at how this discussion is going.

Charistoph
29-07-2015, 20:30
Are we then deciding that a model armed with a Piddly Poker with 3 attacks and a Mighty Masher with 3 attacks makes 6 attacks or 3?

If we are indeed saying 6 attacks. Are we then saying that a model with two Piddly Pokers only gets 3 attacks and re-rolls 1's?

Because I can find nothing to support this argument in the rules. We are essentially saying that because a model is armed with the two of the same named weapon (and naming is the only problem here) that we are ignoring a precedent and assuming that because a another benefit is listed then that is what GW actually intended.

A better question, and true crux of the argument, is where does it state you can use a Weapon twice in the same Phase, anywhere?

After all, that is what is being stated, to use a Weapon profile twice, not actually doubling the Attacks.

Rise99
30-07-2015, 07:06
I am in the camp that it goes strictly by the profile. You do not get extra attacks, only the benefit listed (such as re-rolling 1s).

Charistoph
30-07-2015, 07:11
I am in the camp that it goes strictly by the profile. You do not get extra attacks, only the benefit listed (such as re-rolling 1s).

To be fair, in some cases, the benefits ARE more Attacks, but usually only 1-3 bonuses Attacks, not quite the same as getting to use the same Weapon Twice.

mashkeyboardgetusername
30-07-2015, 09:38
I suppose I haven't been thinking of it as using the same weapon twice, because the model has two (identical) weapons. He uses one weapon as many times as allowed, then uses the other (identical) weapon as many times as allowed. That's how I read it.

If the weapons statline said "paired warblades" (to continue with liberators) I'd fully agree with the interpretation that it's a set of paired weapons that gets counted together, with a bonus. But it says "warblade", and he has two of them, so gets to use both.

Necronartum
30-07-2015, 10:22
A better question, and true crux of the argument, is where does it state you can use a Weapon twice in the same Phase, anywhere?

After all, that is what is being stated, to use a Weapon profile twice, not actually doubling the Attacks.

A fair point.

To be clear, I am firmly in your camp with regards to actual ruling. I am simply trying to play devils advocate on behalf of the people in my gaming group who are likely to argue in the hope I can tease out an argument from the wider community that I can use.

I think I have what I need for 'Round 2'. Thanks guys.

Charistoph
30-07-2015, 16:45
I suppose I haven't been thinking of it as using the same weapon twice, because the model has two (identical) weapons. He uses one weapon as many times as allowed, then uses the other (identical) weapon as many times as allowed. That's how I read it.

If the weapons statline said "paired warblades" (to continue with liberators) I'd fully agree with the interpretation that it's a set of paired weapons that gets counted together, with a bonus. But it says "warblade", and he has two of them, so gets to use both.

And we get back to the same question, where does it tell you to do that? The Weapon itself is listed once, where does it tell you that you can use that one listing more than once? It just tells you to use the Weapon.

When the game references Weapon, it is potentially describing two things. The first is the Weapon listing which provides the profile of Attacks. The second is the Description which defines how the model may be equipped. As we continue on with the rest of the Warscroll, in those cases where dual weapons of a type are listed, then it provides a definition of what those paired weapons do. This even includes the situations with the Knights who have one Weapon listing of "Lance and Sword".

So, this is only a problem if one does not take the whole Warscroll in to account, but currently there is no situation where this is in a vacuum.

hoggle76
31-07-2015, 11:45
I think that the number of attacks you have is on your profile and that doesnt change regardless of what kind of weapon you wield. What does change is that different rules apply depending on weaponry as listed on the warscroll.

For example:
Gor have 1 attack on their profile.
The unit description says "some units fight with two gorblades while others fight with a gorblade and beastshield".
Having two weapons doesnt change the profile but instead we read on the warscroll that two gorblades give you re-roll 1s and beastshield gives you a save of 4+.

Thats how I read it.
yep, exactly how i read it too. there is no paired weapon profile/a bonus in aos, its only gaining from anything if the unit has a special rule like that. good avatar btw :)

bigbiggles
01-08-2015, 09:34
I think Thai it only allows the reroll of 1s to hit (or whatever your special bonus is) . anything else and it is much much better then the general sheild option (probably better then great weapon options too). Since they are all free options, they should be all around the same power level

Its Jack
02-08-2015, 00:59
You can find support for this argument if you just look at the rules, and the examples provided in this thread. It's clear. "We" aren't ignoring any "precedent". The rules clearly state:

"The number of attacks a model can make is equal to the Attacks characteristic for the weapons it can use." Not the capital "A" in Attack characteristics. That's the value used.

There are special abilities called "Choppa Boss", "Exile Blades", "Berserk Fury", "Chaos Rune-axes", "Choppas", and others that clearly state what happens when the unit is armed with paired weapons.


It also says weapons. A Plaguemonk has a pair of foetid blades.

"A unit of Plague Monks has 5 or moremodels. Some units of Plague Monks arearmed with a pair of Foetid Blades, whileothers attack with a Foetid Blade in oneclaw and a Woe-stave in the other."

You get a bonus for wielding a pair of foetid blades (reroll to hit), but the weapon clearly states "Foetid Blade". Singular. I have a pair of them, so I have two foetid blades. I go to attack, I look at the attack characteristic for my WEAPONS and see a single foetid blade has two attacks, so having two foetid blades means I would roll 2 dice per weapon the model has, then I would reroll the misses.

The sad thing is that the RAW/RAI just don't work as the wording is so vague. If you were only supposed to get the bonus and no extra attacks, why are other weapon entries listed as plural?

Overtninja
03-08-2015, 11:31
You attack with all available weapons when your models attack, so if you've got two of the same weapon, and they are listed as a singular weapon in the profile, you get to attack with both of them - with as many attacks as the profile states for each. If the weaponry is listed as plural in the profile, they represent the number of attacks the model gets from using both weapons at once. If there's a bonus associated with using two of the same independently-listed weapons, you get that bonus in addition a number of attacks for using both weapons.

If they list them as plural, it means that the attack profile is for both weapons, while others are written as singular, which is the attack profile of one instance of the weapon. This means that some models have way more attacks than other models, of course - but unless they go back and address this it should be assumed as intentional.

splash
03-08-2015, 15:02
It also says weapons. A Plaguemonk has a pair of foetid blades.

"A unit of Plague Monks has 5 or moremodels. Some units of Plague Monks arearmed with a pair of Foetid Blades, whileothers attack with a Foetid Blade in oneclaw and a Woe-stave in the other."

You get a bonus for wielding a pair of foetid blades (reroll to hit), but the weapon clearly states "Foetid Blade". Singular. I have a pair of them, so I have two foetid blades. I go to attack, I look at the attack characteristic for my WEAPONS and see a single foetid blade has two attacks, so having two foetid blades means I would roll 2 dice per weapon the model has, then I would reroll the misses.

No no no no. Where in the rules does it say you get to do that? You are making that up.

Once again:

"The number of attacks a model can make is equal to the Attacks characteristic for the weapons it can use." Note the capital "A" in Attack characteristics. That's the value used. There is no rule in the rules that allow a player to roll DOUBLE the number of attacks per weapon. None whatsoever.[/quote]


The sad thing is that the RAW/RAI just don't work as the wording is so vague. If you were only supposed to get the bonus and no extra attacks, why are other weapon entries listed as plural?

There is no vagueness. Show us exactly where a model doubles the number of attacks in its Attack characteristic for using paired weapons. And while you do it, refer to the examples of several models and their warscrolls that DO NOT double their attacks, but instead gain a special ability. It is quite clear.

This is bordering on frustration now, I'm staring to lose my sympathy for those that are still confused at this time. I understand that some players want to power game, and roll as many dice as possible to gain whatever advantage they think they need. But there is no rule for double the number of attacks for paired weapons. There are SPECIAL RULES that govern the use of paired weapons. Refer to those. Don't make up stuff.

If you and your opponent wish to play it powergame style, and double the Attack characteristics, that is great, but don't expect everyone else to conform to your house rule. If GW wants us to play it that way, they'll have to amend the rules they have and tell us to do so. Until then, the rules are the rules.

splash
03-08-2015, 15:06
You attack with all available weapons when your models attack, so if you've got two of the same weapon, and they are listed as a singular weapon in the profile, you get to attack with both of them - with as many attacks as the profile states for each. If the weaponry is listed as plural in the profile, they represent the number of attacks the model gets from using both weapons at once. If there's a bonus associated with using two of the same independently-listed weapons, you get that bonus in addition a number of attacks for using both weapons.

Please show us exactly where in the rules that allows you to do this.


If they list them as plural, it means that the attack profile is for both weapons, while others are written as singular, which is the attack profile of one instance of the weapon. This means that some models have way more attacks than other models, of course - but unless they go back and address this it should be assumed as intentional.

Please show us exactly where in the rules that allows you to do this. There are clear examples of special rules stating exactly that a model DOES NOT gain double the attacks for using paired weapons (see Ork Boss--the special rule cleary states 8 attacks INSTEAD OF 6, others gain rerolls for various results).

splash
03-08-2015, 15:08
A fair point.

To be clear, I am firmly in your camp with regards to actual ruling. I am simply trying to play devils advocate on behalf of the people in my gaming group who are likely to argue in the hope I can tease out an argument from the wider community that I can use.

I think I have what I need for 'Round 2'. Thanks guys.

Well I hope that your gaming group has fun, regardless of the way you decide to play it.

theunwantedbeing
03-08-2015, 15:46
Please show us exactly where in the rules that allows you to do this.
As unlikely it is that you'll actually agree....here goes anyway.
In the Attacking section of the AoS rules.
To quote it directly
The number of attacks a model can make is
determined by the weapons that it is armed
with.  The weapon options a model has are
listed in its description on its warscroll.
Missile weapons can be used in the shooting
phase, and melee weapons can be used in
the combat phase.  The number of attacks
a model can make is equal to the Attacks
characteristic for the weapons it can use.

It's quite clear that you attack with whatever weapons you are armed with and use that attack profile of that weapon for each weapon you carry.
The warscrolls themselves never outright state anywhere that a model armed with two of a weapon does not double their attacks, or attack with both weapon, or anything to contradict or prevent you from effectively doubling your attacks when armed with two of a given weapon.

If you have somewhere that states your own opinion of what the rules say then please, feel free to quote it for us.


There are clear examples of special rules stating exactly that a model DOES NOT gain double the attacks for using paired weapons (see Ork Boss--the special rule cleary states 8 attacks INSTEAD OF 6, others gain rerolls for various results).
The Orc Warboss rules.
Description
Some Orc Warbosses are armed with a Boss
Choppa and a Boss Shield, while others
wield a pair of Boss Choppas.
The profile for a Boss Choppa
Boss Choppa 1" 6 3+ 3+ -1 1
The special rule Choppa Boss:
Orc Warbosses can carve
their way through even more foes when
they wield a pair of Boss Choppas. These
Bosses make 8 attacks, instead of 6.

There is no "Pair of Boss Choppas" weapon profile.
However we are told that the boss can weild two boss choppas.
There is a Boss Choppa profile and the main rules have clearly told us we attack with all the weapons we have.
So we get to make attacks with two of them for a total of 12 attacks.
However, the special rule "Choppa Boss" exists, which means instead of a Boss Choppa we own making 6 attacks, it makes 8 attacks.

So as per RAW, we "double" our attacks.
Largely as it doesn't specifically say not to do this because the allowance to do so is given in the basic ruleset.

Same deal with pairs of weapons getting special rules to re-roll 1's or any other abilities they may grant.
None of them say you only get to attack using a single weapons profile.
The only instances where you only get a single weapons profile worth of attacks is when the weapon profile is not singular and covers both weapons.

Personally I feel it's a mistake.
But it's what the rules tell us to do and anything else would be a house rule.

Choombatta
03-08-2015, 15:59
The Orc Warboss rules.
Description
Some Orc Warbosses are armed with a Boss
Choppa and a Boss Shield, while others
wield a pair of Boss Choppas.
The profile for a Boss Choppa
Boss Choppa 1" 6 3+ 3+ -1 1
The special rule Choppa Boss:
Orc Warbosses can carve
their way through even more foes when
they wield a pair of Boss Choppas. These
Bosses make 8 attacks, instead of 6.

So you read "These Bosses make 8 attacks instead of 6" as "These Bosses make 16 attacks instead of 8"?!?!




So as per RAW, we "double" our attacks.

Can you show us where in the rules it states "double" attacks anywhere?
Then it is not RAW, as it is not actually written anywhere.

darkestvisions
03-08-2015, 17:04
I have seen several discussions around this topic... and to be honest, they are all back and forth with no clear conclusion - the rules simply do not say do this or don't do this and so ultimately, it is left to interpretation... every game group will therefore play differently, choosing what suits them!

However, for what it's worth - I sit in the camp which allows two sets of attacks for two weapons, and here is why (I will use a Stormcast Eternals Liberator with two Warhammers as an example);

- During step 2 of the Combat Phase, we are told that "each model in the unit attacks with all of the melee weapons it is armed with". This is pretty clear, and tells us to use all available weapons (note: multiple) a model is armed with.

- Under Attacking, "the number of attacks a model can make is determined by the weapons it is armed with". Again, clearly references the idea of knowing what the model is armed with, and in particular, the plural use of weapons.

- From the Liberators Description, "some units of Liberators are armed with a Warhammer in each hand". This tells us the model(s) are armed with two Warhammers each. A single 'Warhammer' provides 2 attacks (as listed on the profile).

- So... during the combat phase, each Liberator fights with all of the weapons he is armed with (two Warhammers, one in each hand), and his number of attacks is determined by the weapons he is armed with (in this case, 2 for each Warhammer making 4 in total). In addition, he also benefits from the 'Paired Weapons' Ability, allowing him to reroll hit rolls of 1 because he is "armed with more than one Warhammer or Warblade".

As a note, any rules which allow re-rolls for paired weapons etc. are Abilities, and are not linked or tied to a weapon profile as such. These abilities do not explicitly rule against having two sets of attacks for two weapons (the term 'double attacks' seems to cause confusion, so I refer to two sets of attacks, although using identical profiles), so for those saying to allow two sets of attacks and an ability is a house rule? To not allow this is also a house rule...

Also - if we compare Liberators with two Warhammers to Prosecutors with two Celestial Hammers (which are given as a single profile) - Prosecutors get 4 attacks total, though 2 ranged and 2 melee. Why would a Liberator with the same number of 'hammers make just 2 attacks?

To continue the application - Plague Monks can take two blades, or a blade and a staff... if they had a blade and a staff, they can claim two sets of attacks, so why not with two blades?

Its Jack
03-08-2015, 17:33
No no no no. Where in the rules does it say you get to do that? You are making that up.

Once again:

"The number of attacks a model can make is equal to the Attacks characteristic for the weapons it can use." Note the capital "A" in Attack characteristics. That's the value used. There is no rule in the rules that allow a player to roll DOUBLE the number of attacks per weapon. None whatsoever.

Keep highlighting the capital A, keep ignoring the s in Attacks.That is the issue with this, you ignore one point to focus on another. Theunwantedbeing, darkestvisions and others on this thread have highlighted this fact.




There is no vagueness. Show us exactly where a model doubles the number of attacks in its Attack characteristic for using paired weapons. And while you do it, refer to the examples of several models and their warscrolls that DO NOT double their attacks, but instead gain a special ability. It is quite clear.

I did. A pair of Foetid blades. I have two, so i Attack with all of the weapons on my profile. A pair of foetid blades isn't listed, just a foetid blade as a singular weapon.


There are SPECIAL RULES that govern the use of paired weapons. Refer to those. Don't make up stuff.

If you and your opponent wish to play it powergame style, and double the Attack characteristics, that is great, but don't expect everyone else to conform to your house rule. If GW wants us to play it that way, they'll have to amend the rules they have and tell us to do so. Until then, the rules are the rules.

Is it making something up if you follow the rules? This is why a set of rules as concise as AoS should cover this eventuality. If you really think that Plague Monks is powergaming, then you must have some really tame powergamers in your area. I'd just like to use models that have been gathering dust since the Lustria campaign book without getting utterly curbstomped.

Necronartum
03-08-2015, 17:44
Choppa Boss: Orc Warbosses can carve
their way through even more foes when
they wield a pair of Boss Choppas. These
Bosses make 8 attacks, instead of 6.

Could this actually be the argument that models don't get doubled attacks? After all, the rule specifically refers to paired weapons and then goes on to stipulate that a pair of Boss Choppas allows 8 attacks, not 6 (as oppposed to 12, which is what some are suggesting).

If indeed we were supposed to double attacks for paired weapons would the rule not be:

Choppa Boss: Orc Warbosses can carve
their way through even more foes when
they wield a pair of Boss Choppas. These
Bosses make 8 attacks, instead of 12.

Although that wouldn't make sense in this case, it seems to me that the bonus of pairing the weapons is the additional attacks it provides. Which under the other ruling would actually already that bonus and more.

darkestvisions
03-08-2015, 17:51
Choppa Boss: Orc Warbosses can carve
their way through even more foes when
they wield a pair of Boss Choppas. These
Bosses make 8 attacks, instead of 6.

Could this actually be the argument that models don't get doubled attacks? After all, the rule specifically refers to paired weapons and then goes on to stipulate that a pair of Boss Choppas allows 8 attacks, not 6 (as oppposed to 12, which is what some are suggesting).

If indeed we were supposed to double attacks for paired weapons would the rule not be:

Choppa Boss: Orc Warbosses can carve
their way through even more foes when
they wield a pair of Boss Choppas. These
Bosses make 8 attacks, instead of 12.

Although that wouldn't make sense in this case, it seems to me that the bonus of pairing the weapons is the additional attacks it provides. Which under the other ruling would actually already that bonus and more.

Except that according to the rules, the attacks you are being granted are due to using a particular weapon that your models are armed with. So 8 attacks instead of the regular 6 when attacking, with a Choppa. He then gets to attack with a second Choppa (since he attacks with all weapons he is armed with), so when he makes his 6 normal attacks for the second Choppa, it also becomes 8 (making 8 attacks instead of 6 as per his Ability).

Also, the rule doesn't actually say that the pair of Choppas allows 8 attacks as you suggested - it says the Boss makes 8 attacks instead of 6, where 6 attacks is the profile of a single Choppa (but he has two and must attack with all weapons).

In practice, having some extra attacks probably works out similarly to re-rolling 1s, but with the potential for more resulting damage, representing the killing ability of a Warboss!

thesoundofmusica
03-08-2015, 17:52
Seems weird to have so many weapon options and only one be viable throughout the entire game. Common sense.

Ulfrik
03-08-2015, 17:54
As usual some people are trying to twist the rules to suit themselves.

Just because some descriptions say '' armed with x weapon in each hand'', it does not mean they are paired weapons.

If they have weapon x in each hand they will get double the number of attacks with that weapon.
If they have paired weapons then their will be some special rule that they get for using that paired weapon.

The Liberators have either two warhammers (4 attacks no paired rule), paired warblades (2 attacks + special rule), warhammer and shield (2 attacks + save re-roll), or a paired
warblade with shield (2 attacks + special rule + re-rolled save).

darkestvisions
03-08-2015, 18:00
As usual some people are trying to twist the rules to suit themselves.

Just because some descriptions say '' armed with x weapon in each hand'', it does not mean they are paired weapons.

If they have weapon x in each hand they will get double the number of attacks with that weapon.
If they have paired weapons then their will be some special rule that they get for using that paired weapon.

The Liberators have either two warhammers (4 attacks no paired rule), paired warblades (2 attacks + special rule), warhammer and shield (2 attacks + save re-roll), or a paired
warblade with shield (2 attacks + special rule + re-rolled save).

If you read my earlier post, you'll see why the Liberators get 4 attacks *and* to use the Paired Weapons rule.

Also - I am not twisting rules or assuming that a Warhammer in each hand counts as paired weapons... the Paired Weapons rule applies to "models armed with more than one Warhammer of Warblade" ;)

Ulfrik
03-08-2015, 18:15
The Warhammers are not paired. It ONLY states they have one in each hand.
The Warblades are stated as being paired.
A Warhammer and Shield are not paired, but a Warblade and Shield are.

Paired weapons do not have to be the same but the user is skilled in combining them.
Gladiators paired a trident with a net.

darkestvisions
03-08-2015, 18:18
The Warhammers are not paired. It ONLY states they have one in each hand.
The Warblades are stated as being paired.
A Warhammer and Shield are not paired, but a Warblade and Shield are.

Paired weapons do not have to be the same but the user is skilled in combining them.
Gladiators paired a trident with a net.

218130

I think this clearly shows that a model armed with more than one Warhammer or Warblade counts as having Paired Weapons...

Ulfrik
03-08-2015, 18:26
Where does it say that it applies to Warhammers. It applies to Paired Weapons not 2 of the same weapon.
You get to use the Paired Weapon rule with a paired Warblade and shield.

Charistoph
03-08-2015, 18:27
As a note, any rules which allow re-rolls for paired weapons etc. are Abilities, and are not linked or tied to a weapon profile as such. These abilities do not explicitly rule against having two sets of attacks for two weapons (the term 'double attacks' seems to cause confusion, so I refer to two sets of attacks, although using identical profiles), so for those saying to allow two sets of attacks and an ability is a house rule? To not allow this is also a house rule...

The Abilities ARE tied to the weapons as much as the profile is, though. And they tell you what to do in the case of having two of the same weapon (or in the case of many knights, weapon line). Unfortunately, Attacking twice with the same profile is never listed as permissible.

"Doubling the Attacks" only works if you ignore parts of the Warscroll.

Ulfrik
03-08-2015, 18:31
You do not need two of the same weapon to have paired weapons. Its about combining weapons (shield plus sword, trident plus net).

Charistoph
03-08-2015, 20:51
You do not need two of the same weapon to have paired weapons. Its about combining weapons (shield plus sword, trident plus net).

"Lance and Sword" for Knights...

Choombatta
03-08-2015, 22:36
As usual some people are trying to twist the rules to suit themselves.

Just because some descriptions say '' armed with x weapon in each hand'', it does not mean they are paired weapons.

If they have weapon x in each hand they will get double the number of attacks with that weapon.
If they have paired weapons then their will be some special rule that they get for using that paired weapon.

The Liberators have either two warhammers (4 attacks no paired rule), paired warblades (2 attacks + special rule), warhammer and shield (2 attacks + save re-roll), or a paired
warblade with shield (2 attacks + special rule + re-rolled save).

So you are saying Bloodreavers (the new marauders) actually get 2 attacks as base, even though the Warscroll clearly says 1 attack?
So a unit of Bloodreavers within 12" of a Bloodsecrator (who has activated his ability) actually get 6 attacks each?!?!?!?
They come armed with "Reaver Blades". The profile just list "Reaver Blade".
They have 2 attacks instead of 1 when within 12" of any Chaos Totem, and the Bloodsecrator (who is a Chaos Totem) also gives an additional attack on all melee weapons to any Khorne unit within 18" if he activates his ability.

So 6 attacks per model?!?!?
Using your interpretation, that makes them twice as good as the Blood Warriors.

Tichey
04-08-2015, 08:31
I read it as if you take the duel wield option it makes it easier to hit due to you gaining access to the paired weapons rules. No where does it say you get double attacks as well, I feel that if they wanted you to get double attacks they would have listed that in the rules on the war scroll describing the bonus's of having duel weapons. Realistically I think people are going to read into these rules what they want and I'm sure someone with a large duel wield army is going to continue to argue that all his troops are now massive 4 attacks each monsters. All I know is that I won't be allowing it in my games and people will have to decide for themselves.

Ulfrik
04-08-2015, 16:58
The profile for the weapon says Reaver BladeS.

Choombatta
04-08-2015, 17:35
The profile for the weapon says Reaver BladeS.


Funny, I am looking at it right now and the profile says "Reaver Blade".
The description of the unit says "They are armed with Reaver Blades".
I am looking at the warscroll on the App if that makes a difference.

Of course, I am firmly in the camp of "You never double attacks", since nothing in any rule in AoS gives any indication that you ever double any attacks.
In 8th addition, there was an actual rule to deal with this, in AoS there is no such rule.

Grontik
04-08-2015, 22:43
Seems clear to me that you just read the Description of the unit and choose what option they are armed with. Then you use the appropriate entry and the number of attacks listed for that chosen weapon even if it is 1 attack like Reaver BladeS. Every time I have seen units with multiple options like two hand weapons there is a rule associated with that option like rerolling 1's to hit. Paired Weapons seems to be exactly that and even says more than one Warhammer or Warblade. Not sure how you would infer doubling the attacks but that's just me.

Ulfrik
05-08-2015, 08:27
I wouldn't trust anything the Apps states as it has so many errors/discrepancies. The profile in the book says Reaver Blades.

AoS rules state a model attacks with all of its weapons. So if its carries a sword in one hand and an axe in the other then you would roll for both. If it has a sword in each hand (not paired) then you attack with both swords. Paired weapons (two swords, sword with shield, etc) have special rules on the warscroll so you would only attack once.

Grontik
05-08-2015, 12:22
When the rules state to attack with all of it's weapons it is referring to units (or characters mostly) that have multiple weapon listings in their characteristics and description.

Reaver Blades are not a good example for what you are trying to say I think ... if it was Reaper Blade (no plural) in the characteristics listings then I could understand some confusion but it says Reaper Blades with 1 attack and a special ability to go with it. Pretty cut and dry.

Aezeal
09-08-2015, 19:51
You are right.

Never multiply anything on a warscroll. Sometimes you can use more melee or ranged weapons in the corresponding phase, but you never multiply an entry.

Spiney Norman
11-08-2015, 22:31
218130

I think this clearly shows that a model armed with more than one Warhammer or Warblade counts as having Paired Weapons...


Where does it say that it applies to Warhammers. It applies to Paired Weapons not 2 of the same weapon.
You get to use the Paired Weapon rule with a paired Warblade and shield.

It says that in the attachment added by darkest visions, it makes it crystal clear that for the purposes of the liberators 'paired weapons' rule, paired weapons are "more than one warhammer or warblade", i.e. two warhammers OR two war blades. Otherwise you don't get the paired weapon bonus.

Dosiere
11-08-2015, 23:47
Here is what the rules say:

Liberator with 2 hammers

2 attacks total re rolling 1s to hit

Liberator with 2 war blades

2 attacks total re rolling 1s to hit

Liberator with hammer or sword and a shield

2 attacks total re rolling 1s on your save rolls

I k ow coming from other game systems it seems like the extra weapon should maybe add attacks but they don't. Basically you either pick re rolling 1s to hit or re rolling 1s on your saves when deciding how to equip these guys. That's the only real difference.

Aezeal
12-08-2015, 00:05
If you put it like that it might seem odd.. but the thing is: 2 weapons with each 3 attacks only happen (might be exceptions but generally speaking) with heroes. Regular troops often do not give the option to use 2 different weapons or 2 of the same weapons. Regular troops seem to get the option to use
1. a single weapon
2. a weapon and shield (the shield giving a save reroll of some kind).
3. a 2 handed weapon (giving rend, better wound roll and sometimes higher damage)
4. or paired weapons: giving the same attacks but often reroll on hit

And then it's somewhat balanced (and certainly better balanced than giving 2x single weapon attacks).
(Option 1 is loosing out but usually is seperate anyway when troops have no options or when the "single" weapon includes 2 weapons (but no alterate options)

Dosiere
12-08-2015, 06:04
As usual some people are trying to twist the rules to suit themselves.

Just because some descriptions say '' armed with x weapon in each hand'', it does not mean they are paired weapons.

If they have weapon x in each hand they will get double the number of attacks with that weapon.
If they have paired weapons then their will be some special rule that they get for using that paired weapon.

The Liberators have either two warhammers (4 attacks no paired rule), paired warblades (2 attacks + special rule), warhammer and shield (2 attacks + save re-roll), or a paired
warblade with shield (2 attacks + special rule + re-rolled save).

Did you bother to read what the paired weapon rule actually says? Have we gotten to a point here where you are arguing a warhammer should not be considered a weapon? Also, where are you getting the idea that a model armed with a sword and a shield gets both special rules? The descriptions are not calling upon a universal special rule, if that's what you are getting at.

Aezeal
13-08-2015, 08:34
Ulfric is wrong on so many things which are VERY clear it seems like deliberate trolling to me. (IMHO not having 4 attacks is clear too, but the paired weapons argument he is making is just plain wrong).

Spiney Norman
13-08-2015, 08:51
Here is what the rules say:

Liberator with 2 hammers

2 attacks total re rolling 1s to hit

Liberator with 2 war blades

2 attacks total re rolling 1s to hit

Liberator with hammer or sword and a shield

2 attacks total re rolling 1s on your save rolls

I k ow coming from other game systems it seems like the extra weapon should maybe add attacks but they don't. Basically you either pick re rolling 1s to hit or re rolling 1s on your saves when deciding how to equip these guys. That's the only real difference.

This exactly, folks need to clear the way two hand weapons worked in wfb out of their minds because in AoS they don't function the same way

Choombatta
13-08-2015, 14:57
This exactly, folks need to clear the way two hand weapons worked in wfb out of their minds because in AoS they don't function the same way

Agreed, but even in 8th, the rule only added 1 additional attack, not double the attack characteristic that some are trying to push into AoS.
I at times do have to wonder if people are trying to come up with ways to break AoS in the hopes that somehow they can convince others not to play it.
As I have posted before, misery loves company.

theunwantedbeing
13-08-2015, 15:54
I k ow coming from other game systems it seems like the extra weapon should maybe add attacks but they don't. Basically you either pick re rolling 1s to hit or re rolling 1s on your saves when deciding how to equip these guys. That's the only real difference.

You missed out the part of the rules that say

Step 2: Each model in the unit attacks with
all of the melee weapons it is armed with
(see Attacking).

This is what is causing the difference of opinion.

Aezeal
14-08-2015, 20:41
Might be causing it but it's not really saying you can use anything in a scroll 2x.

theunwantedbeing
14-08-2015, 20:45
Might be causing it but it's not really saying you can use anything in a scroll 2x.

I don't think you're ever going to understand the other side of the argument.

Personally I just hope GW ditches all the singular weapons that can be taken more than once, then the problem goes away.
Seeing as they're not going to alter the wording for the main rules or make it clearer any other way.

Charistoph
14-08-2015, 21:52
I don't think you're ever going to understand the other side of the argument.

Oh, it is understood. It requires the position that the physical representation has more weight than the list and the rest of the rules on the Warscroll.

It's understood, just not accepted. There is a difference.

Takluzzdin
17-08-2015, 10:48
So I had posted this on Dakka and saw the same topic here so I thought I'd share it here on warseer as well. Maybe it'll help people visualize what's happening in combat in regards to the special rules and why it makes sense not to double attacks.
"After following this post for a bit and not being able to make up my mind about which side I take. I think I finally figured out what makes sense to.

In the first example about the exile blades, the following is what I think the rules intend to depict. I acknowledge the rules could be more fleshed out but I think this what they are going for.

The dark elf strikes with his primary hand weapon (exile blade #1), with six attacks. Any attacks that fail to hit whether its due to the opponent dodging, parrying, or whatever the dark elf follows up that attack with his off hand (exile blade #2) trying to score another blow. That's where the special rule came in.

It's not that the second weapon is exactly the same as his first, its that he uses it to gain more attacks than he would without it. Since he going to counter or strike again when he misses or is parried.

So in the Orc Warlord example, instead of waiting for an opening due to a clumsy dodge or a parry that leaves an opening (a reroll to hit). He instead lashes out with both weapons simultaneously striking even more than he would with just one.

With the wood elf glade lord or whatever it was. He uses the two weapons because he is skilled enough with those two weapons simultaneously or trained to use both in a manner that allows both to be used at maximum efficiency. Basically the same.

Same with shields etc. The special rule shows what that weapon is used for. Not that it needs a line of its own or to be duplicated.

I know that's kinda hard to imagine but im writing this on my phone so its a little difficult to convey things as well."