PDA

View Full Version : AoS and the army collecting impulse



Wishing
27-07-2015, 13:24
Apologies if this already has a thread somewhere that I've missed - Warseer has so many posts that it can be hard to keep up. :)

I just wanted to post in order to mention my favourite thing about AoS so far.

I'm the type of person who loves the GW-style wargaming hobby, but most of my free time is at odd hours, and the main thing I love is collecting, converting and painting, so my main involvement with the hobby is with the above activities. I do also play games, and enjoy knowing the rules for them and writing my own rules for stuff, but actually putting models on the table and rolling dice happens pretty rarely.

Despite this, when I buy models to convert and paint, I cannot do it just in order to own them and put them on a shelf. I think because I was introduced to WHFB and 40k as concepts so early on in my hobby history (in the early 90's sometime), these types of models have always to me been game pieces, not display pieces. Whether I actually use them in games or not is irrelevant - but I think of them in terms of how I *could* use them in a game. Thus, all the models I make and buy have to have rules of some sort. If they don't, I write rules for them myself. They can only exist in a universe where they aren't just things that *look* a certain way - they also have to be able to *do* something. With dice.

For this reason, for the last many many years, I have bought several boxes of warhammer miniatures. However, I've always bought them in order to convert them into Blood Bowl teams, or 40k squads, or Mordheim warbands.

Buying them in order to use them in WHFB seemed like a ridiculous notion. Because WHFB was the game where you had blocks of 40 identical troops, several times over, and in order to field some cool model like a big monster, it had to be less than 25% of something or other. I love skaven, for example, but there was no way that I was going to ever get huge blocks of infantry. I would get a few heroes and a few monsters and war engines - but that wouldn't be an army that could be fielded in WHFB, so I would never be motivated to do this. This would be the same for all the other races or models that would catch my eye. Having small collections of some skaven here, some dark elves here, and some chaos warriors here, never seemed to have any point, so I never got them.

With AoS, only knowing what I've read scattered around the internet, it seems like now, all of a sudden, there seems to be a point.

No longer is there this wire mesh of "This is the game where you can only game with your models if you invest in giant blocks of units" around the warhammer model section in my mind. Now, the barriers of structures and restrictions seem to have faded away. When I now read a rumour about a new bone giant model coming, I don't think "that sounds cool, shame I'll never get it as I don't have or want hundreds of skeletons to go with it". Now, I think "that sounds cool - maybe I could get that, and get a couple of those cool flying undead guys, and some ghosts, and then that could be used in AoS".

That there is no such thing as "this is an illegal army, you need XXX to make this playable as a minimum" anymore is *huge* in my mind. It makes me feel like buying models that I never felt like buying before. This is entirely from a collecting perspective - whether the "army" I am assembling is any good or not is completely irrelevant at this stage. I just like getting them, painting them, and thinking of them as "this is a legal force for this game". If they just sit in my storage box forever after that is totally cool too.

Some will probably think that I am nuts, since I am basing my purchases on these artificial structures that really aren't relevant for me - if I wanted to get a bone giant or a skaven warlord before, I could have just gotten them and made up my own game for them to be used in, after all. I don't need AoS for this. This is very true - but I am a human who is influenced by what I see around me. When I see it *suggested* to me that I can collect models for a game without having to build a giant army to use them, it affects my desire to do so, even though I don't need permission for it. GW coming out and suggesting "hey, here's a conceptual system to make free-form armies in the shape and size you want, within some very wide categories of chaos, order and so on", it makes me much more positive about doing that, compared to if this was just something I had decided to do independently. Psychology matters!

So that's just a story of how I feel happy about AoS. Maybe some will recognise the psychological mechanisms I describe, but if not, then you can just shake your head and smile at how some people can be really silly. :)

Theocracity
27-07-2015, 13:33
I've experienced the same thing, honestly. I was tempted by a box of Black Orcs I picked up for 40k conversions - now all the rest of the models can be useful for something, even though I never had any interest in fielding a full O&G army. It also feeds into my eclectic Fantasy collecting habit, where I loved the looks of Skaven and vampire counts skeletons but hated the requirements to field a legal army.

I still haven't played AoS, so I'm not sure how I'll feel about the game rules yet, but I agree - the 'cool model collector' in me is happy.

Shandor
27-07-2015, 13:37
I have this impulse too. There are some Models i really like and i was thinking about buying them.
But every time this happens i look at my Minatures i already have, laying useless around and im Cured.

Spoik
27-07-2015, 13:39
Fear not, I also subscribe to this philosophy, or something very similar. There has to be some sort of framework, however flimsy, to give "meaning" to my collection, even if it's an entirely fabricated construct, and it's just in my mind.

Whatever its faults, AoS really suits this approach, and it has been the catalyst for me painting some models I've had my eye on for a while, such as a chimera, and the lovely river trolls...

Wishing
27-07-2015, 13:49
I have this impulse too. There are some Models i really like and i was thinking about buying them.
But every time this happens i look at my Minatures i already have, laying useless around and im Cured.

I think if this worked for most people, GW and all the other model companies would be much smaller than they are today. :)

HammerofThunor
27-07-2015, 15:28
I'm potentially quite excited at the opportunities (although you could have got small unit previously, I've always preferred smaller games). I like the idea of doing an Orruk warband from the Shadowlands, or a savage Aelven warband from Ghur. But that is all dependant on what gets released and the info on the other realms. Fire and Life are a bit pphh for me (although Fyreslayers could be cool). I also like the idea of mixing them up a bit. Perhaps some humans from Asqy with Fyreslayer support. Still too early to tell.

Kherith
27-07-2015, 16:26
You are not alone I am absolutely like this.

I didn't start collecting high or wood elves to go with my Dark Elves until the Eternity king list made it legal even though I really wanted to. I wanted to do a vampire list too but held off because the thought of painting a 25% core of skeletons/zombies made me feel ill.

I'm still holding off on vampire counts but now it's because they're death and my elves are order.

I am however sad to see the back of points. I liked knowing I had a collection of Dark Elves which was a legal 9,000 pt army as well now it's just a bunch of warscrolls.

I know in my head that it doesn't matter because I will never play a 9,000pt/30 warscrolls game, but in my heart this is still the hardest part of AoS for me to accept.

isthatnew?
27-07-2015, 16:55
Hi Wishing you are very much not alone with your need to have a use for your figures, I too have the same need. Display models are fine for those that enjoy that aspect of the hobby but I need a use for my figures. They may not see a tabletop often but the thought of them being used in a game is the fuel I need to paint units.

i very much believe this is something GW are try to tap into, I'm a skaven fan too but will never paint enough for a full 2400pt WHFB army, I've already got Ogres, O&G, Demons, so Skaven only got as far as a doomwheel, a warp lightning canon, 20 storm vermin and 20 plague monks painted before I realised how much more was going to be needed. I have unpainted figures but those will not see a game until they are painted and based.
Now I can see a way to use smaller model counts and faster games with my Skaven so I am back finishing them off. I've already used the freedom of round bases to mount Queek on a tall base with a rock outcrop without fear of him falling over constantly, it's a metal Queek mini so top heavy. I will add other models as I see fit and add them to what I have. Now I still don't have any idea if AoS will be a game I want to play but others in my group are interested enough to try it out so I'll join in at least occasionally. I have 8th with my other armies, KoW as a fallback too and I'm looking at Malifaux as a more in depth skirmish game which is gaining a few players at my local gaming group.

Vladyhell
27-07-2015, 17:08
I'm in the same boat,love just buying cool stuff to paint and put on the table.End Times Archaon and Age of Sigmar have let me play all the cool stuff now without having to worry about meeting quotas or restrictions.And like the OP I started a Skaven army when Archaon came out and was braced for buying and painting over 120 core troops,now tho the 40 clanrats and 20 stormvermin I got will be plenty and I can concentrate on all the cool other stuff.

CrystalSphere
27-07-2015, 18:07
I donīt really understand you - if you really like one model: say Beīlakor, but you donīt play demons, you said you would not get it before, but now thanks to AoS you would buy it?
If i really liked Beīlakor then i would buy him, no matter if it was legal to use him or not.

I could always made up rules to use him for my dark elves - as a summoned demon, something that makes sense for me in the WHFB setting.

Iīm not going to buy an empire steam tank and then use it with a wood elf army, just plain no, it doesnīt matter how cool i think the steam tank is. However i could buy the steam tank, make up an story about a renegade engineer, and use it as a mercenary unit for several armies, or swap the human for a skaven and make it a "captured" steam-tank.

I guess my point is that, as you like your collection to remain "legal" (even if you admit that those minis will never be played), what i want is my collection to make sense for what it is - a skaven army, a dark elf host of naggaroth, a nuln imperial army, an ogre mercenary tribe, a night goblin only tribe, etc. I donīt collect random miniatures i like, i want them to fit thematically with my collection, not to form "legal" forces, but forces that are thematic and make sense to me: itīs not just a bunch of minis i like, itīs an army that fits this setting, and i made up the background story for it too!

Raggydoll1979
27-07-2015, 19:07
I completely agree with the OP, and I'm now considering collecting a small ghoul army. Also as a 40k player I prefer the round bases. But as has been mentioned before I do wish there was some kind of points to give some kind of structure.

I love that the rules and army lists have been made free to download, the cost of army books and rule sets has always been a bit of a put off for me. I feel the rules are a little to simplistic for me however, but being free I can't complain.

Kingtomb
27-07-2015, 19:44
I too absolutely love the creativity allowed in the new system.

However I have concerns that local hobby shops and tournament organizers are hard a work squashing this whole "creativity" thing. All the army comp systems floating around are already putting some pretty serious crimps on the creativity.

In other words I too love the new freedom and creativity AoS brings to army building, but I am concerned the only place I will get to be creative is in my basement.

Wishing
27-07-2015, 22:32
I donīt really understand you - if you really like one model: say Beīlakor, but you donīt play demons, you said you would not get it before, but now thanks to AoS you would buy it?

Something like that, yeah. If I really liked the Be'lakor model, but I had no intention of getting any kind of army I could use him with, then I'd be unlikely to pick him up. I would have to convince myself that "some day, I will get some models to field him alongside" - which is much much easier to do now with AoS. I am kinda in that exact situation right now - I've really really liked some of the undead models that came out for the End Times, but couldn't see any way I would ever field them before. Now I kinda do, because I feel like small amounts of models are simply easier to use to game with now, in principle and theory.



I guess my point is that, as you like your collection to remain "legal" (even if you admit that those minis will never be played), what i want is my collection to make sense for what it is - a skaven army, a dark elf host of naggaroth, a nuln imperial army, an ogre mercenary tribe, a night goblin only tribe, etc. I donīt collect random miniatures i like, i want them to fit thematically with my collection, not to form "legal" forces, but forces that are thematic and make sense to me: itīs not just a bunch of minis i like, itīs an army that fits this setting, and i made up the background story for it too!

That's exactly the point I was trying to make. I normally wouldn't just get Be'lakor as a display piece, because that would just be a random miniature I like. I would want him to fit thematically within a group of models I would have that would feel like a realistic force in the setting. I guess I am just influenced by what the rules tell me are a realistic force in the setting. My impression was that before, a skaven army had to have large blocks of infantry in order to be a realistic force. So that affected me, and made me feel like my small collection of clan moulder models (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?318693-Heroes-of-Clan-Moulder) was not a "real" force, but was just a collection of random models. Now, I feel like this could be a "real" force - because in AoS, *I* get to decide what I think a real force is, rather than the army construction rules and points costs telling me. Now, I can get a brood horror, two units of rat ogres and a hell abomination, and actually use my small group of rat monsters in a game without having to worry about the composition being illegal or having too many rare choices or whatnot.

Cheers for all the supportive replies!

Longstrider
28-07-2015, 00:47
That's exactly the point I was trying to make. I normally wouldn't just get Be'lakor as a display piece, because that would just be a random miniature I like. I would want him to fit thematically within a group of models I would have that would feel like a realistic force in the setting. I guess I am just influenced by what the rules tell me are a realistic force in the setting. My impression was that before, a skaven army had to have large blocks of infantry in order to be a realistic force. So that affected me, and made me feel like my small collection of clan moulder models (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?318693-Heroes-of-Clan-Moulder) was not a "real" force, but was just a collection of random models. Now, I feel like this could be a "real" force - because in AoS, *I* get to decide what I think a real force is, rather than the army construction rules and points costs telling me. Now, I can get a brood horror, two units of rat ogres and a hell abomination, and actually use my small group of rat monsters in a game without having to worry about the composition being illegal or having too many rare choices or whatnot.

Cheers for all the supportive replies!

Even though I'm closer to Crystal Sphere's vision - my question for getting models is "do they make sense together" than yours, I do see where you're coming from. My only caveat broadly for AoS (aside from the points thing, but that's a little less relevant to what both of us want) is that as of yet I still don't know what makes sense in the setting. There's nothing in the rules to prevent someone from bringing a chimera, a Nurgle lord, the Green Knight and 17 skaven clanrats to a game. That's clearly an extreme example, but so far that's still the case.

So I guess what I wonder then, is how we go about making sense of the things that the rules now allow us to do.

Vladyhell
28-07-2015, 02:34
Even though I'm closer to Crystal Sphere's vision - my question for getting models is "do they make sense together" than yours, I do see where you're coming from. My only caveat broadly for AoS (aside from the points thing, but that's a little less relevant to what both of us want) is that as of yet I still don't know what makes sense in the setting. There's nothing in the rules to prevent someone from bringing a chimera, a Nurgle lord, the Green Knight and 17 skaven clanrats to a game. That's clearly an extreme example, but so far that's still the case.

So I guess what I wonder then, is how we go about making sense of the things that the rules now allow us to do.

I wager there are quite a few middle aged dudes with the odd model lying around who haven't played in years.Now with whatever models they have left they can play a game of AoS and get lured back into the hobbly.

Shandor
28-07-2015, 03:48
I wager there are quite a few middle aged dudes with the odd model lying around who haven't played in years.Now with whatever models they have left they can play a game of AoS and get lured back into the hobbly.


Ive got hundreds of Models ive played the last Years and now i have all those Models lying around and dont get played.

de Selby
28-07-2015, 04:15
I think I probably break down similarly to the OP in terms of the amount of time I spend collecting painting and talking compared to the amount of time gaming. I do recognise the feeling 'but what will I do with a box of those?' although as I've built more and more armies it's become less of a concern; due to not getting around to playing with all the legal armies I already have.

I think it's definitely the intention to remove any formal barriers to purchasing any models you want for AoS.

I think that the 8th edition supposed 'standard unit size' of 40 guys was pretty demoralizing, unless like me you like painting horde armies. The default unit size should be the number of models that come in the box, whether it's 1, 5, 10, or 20. Twenty guys is enough for a unit with ranks and facings, and adding more guys should be an option if you want to field a 'big unit' not an effective one. That needed to be fixed.

I also think that 'anything you want' is swinging too far in the other direction. It may actually hurt GW if people were previously buying models just to 'make up the numbers', but more importantly the lack of formal barriers makes the informal barriers higher. People may simply not want to play you if they think you've just brought huge monsters to the table, or some other unbalanced combination. They may give up altogether if they think the game isn't fair, which reduces the pool of people you can play whatever army you bring.

75hastings69
28-07-2015, 05:42
I agree completely 100%, buying a box or clampack of models just because you like them is great, not having to buy build and paint 40 skaven slaves just as a semi disposable speed bump type unit has to be a blessing, being able to use your random model collection as a cohesive force to play a game with is an absolute bonus. I was always more of a collector/painter than a gamer, at one point I was more of a converter than I was painter/collector too, so flitting between buying models from many different armies without having to commit to one army that you have to build your army from is liberating. I get all this, and as I said agree 100%........

However there are a few issues with this ideal.......

1/ such games were already possible in WFB, using A/ Skirmish rules, B/ counts as house rules and C/ your imagination.

These mean using your own ideas, stories/narrative to play a game, this was asking nothing more of you than AoS asks now, but it had the added bonus of being at least able to create a balanced game if only through the points system. Sure some rules/units were brokenin WFB, but they are already in AoS - I'll give the army composing of a couple of TK swarms as an example again, you are outnumbered so go to sudden death rules, chose to stay alive for 6 turns to auto win, then chose to stay buried for those 6 turns - I'm not saying people would do this but the rules allowing you to do it if you chose are there, the same went for WFB, would anyone want to play someone that played like this????

Some of the most enjoyable times I had with WFB were actually from the Warhammer Skirmish booklet - the troll bridge one in particular that needed just 4 models was always good fun.

So in reality there was no need to destroy the background world or rename the races to open up your collecting boundaries that people in all honesty imposed on themselves.

For example when I was collecting VC I bought a few boxes of brets, mainly because I liked some of the models, they were used and themed to be a mousilon detachment for my VC I even had great fun converting some of them, the MAA became and were used as zombies (a bonus as I didn't like the GW zombie models) and the Bret Knights became Black Knights and so on - this I did using my own imagination and narrative, so it was possible, just many people imposed their own must only buy from that range restrictions on themselves.

2/ this model of buying a single box of troops doesn't fit the sales technique that GW put on army building for 8th. A typical VC player in 8th for example would have bought multiple boxes of skeletons this means increased sales for GW and helps them recover the cost invested in design/production/supply etc. now moving to a system where people only have to buy 1 box means they HAVE to change their sales strategy. The way I see it either that means there has to be a dramatic price rise to cover the lost sales of multiple boxes (which was the main problem with the buy in for WFB IMO so would be even more counter productive than a slight price drop and having kept WFb the way it was) OR they have to make each release so attractive that every player picks up a box. This second option works fine in theory IF you have the customer base. However as GW have lost a large part of their WFB player base they have to rely on new blood taking over the buying power that these leavers have left a hole in, and as GW doesn't advertise to anyone external of the hobby already to any real degree I doubt they will entice enough people in to make this option work.

I guess time will tell.

Like I said the freeform nature of it that you have said you like I agree with 100%, but I cannot see how this ideal equates to sales, and as all GW care about (like any business) is selling product I don't see that ideal going very far or lasting very long.

Grizzlybeer
28-07-2015, 06:08
I am in quite a similar boat too! Knowing that I could use my models to play served as a carrot on a stick for me to actually get stuff done. However, since I refused to play with an unpainted army, I have played maybe 4 games of WHFB/40K games over the past ~12 years or so, despite having 6 armies of various sizes across the WH franchises. Regardless of this, I tried to keep up with the rules and list building to some degree to know which models to buy next (I mainly got stuff I liked the look of, balanced with knowing it has some use on the board).

Where I somewhat disagree regarding AoS, however, is that now I feel like I have to start an army from scratch again because of the fundamentally differing dynamics of the game. Yes, I know I can use my previous armies with square bases, but it feels wrong for me to do so. What I mean by that is that the armies I started in oldhammer were heavily influenced by the idea of moving blocks of them in mass battles. AoS changed that completely for me in that I have no desire to field numerous core troops in skirmish formation. One of my armies is VC, and I liked the idea of hordes of skeletons supported by super killy vampires. Now I dread to imagine trying to field comparable forces in AoS with no movement trays and not having quite the same thematics of how it was previously.

Because of this perceived shift in army composition/mechanics (I say perceived because as I stated above, I have not played many games, but rather theorized and discussed) I feel that I would have to start a new army from scratch, not to mention the issue of round bases.

On a separate note, I did collect the odd mini that I enjoyed the look of regardless of whether or not I could ever use it. Its certainly the exception, not the rule.

Sorry for the potentially confusing wall of text, I finally found a topic I had some connection to, and had to type it on a mobile device 😉

Kherith
28-07-2015, 07:46
Hastings you're absolutely correct, at least in my case that this was a selfimposed restriction under 8th (or 7th 6th etc)

I think nuking the old world was a mistake although having said that I'd quite like having more blank space on the map for me to write my own background. Now if only there was a map...

Anyway only thing I slightly disagree on is GW's strategy. I thinkhey they want is for us to buy a big monster centre piece unit every month rather than buying four boxes of infantry and them buying nothing for 6 months because I have four boxes of infantry to paint.

I think this is what GW want but I also think they've messed up (pause for collective gasp of astonishment).
I think most people buy what they can afford irrespective of whatever they have on the go.

Hence the armoured spearhead, cloudstrike squadron, windier host and ghost army in my loft and 20 metal black guard in blisters on my painting table didn't stop me buying Imrik and Alith Anar.

So I kind of understand what GW might think but agree that they're probably wrong

75hastings69
28-07-2015, 08:21
.....Anyway only thing I slightly disagree on is GW's strategy. I thinkhey they want is for us to buy a big monster centre piece unit every month rather than buying four boxes of infantry and them buying nothing for 6 months because I have four boxes of infantry to paint.

If that was what they wanted why are they still running the cost of designing/producing/shipping etc infantry releases, in fact the only release since AoS came out have been for infantry boxes of multiple models.

I get what you are saying, and agree with some of it. However I think the GW sales strategy from 8th WFB does not carry over into AoS, even IF they decided they wanted you to buy 4 boxes of sigmarines who on earth wants to move a unit of 40 individual models around? It's either designed to be a skirmish game (and as such requires the same sales plan that skirmish games do) or it's not (and then moves into the realms of selling multiple boxes of the same thing to the same customer).

I wanted AoS to open up Warhammer (the brand/setting) to a new bunch of people, open people up to the setting, to the fun that can be had, to the hobby as a whole, instead it's a train wreck (IMO) that seems to be aimed at no one at all??? I'll expand what I mean by aimed at no one at all.... It seems to be aimed at a younger generation (hence the very simplified rules) but then includes models in the starter which are not that easy to assemble, but with the colour pallettes suggested are much easier to paint for a beginner, it hasn't lowered the entry cost (i.e. money cost per model) but it has said you don't need to spend as much money as you can play with a smaller army, it no longer has generic fantasy names that a reader of ANY fantasy novel can either identify with or could look up on the internet and stumble across GW models by accident - instead they've opted for their own names, which no-one will EVER be exposed to outside of those already in the GW hobby, it hasn't been advertised to anyone that's not already in the hobby so the desired customer target is unclear, it can't be aimed at 40k players as it doesn't offer anything that 40k doesn't already do, and do better - in fact it's somewhat 40k lite, it surely isn't aimed at the WFB players as the background and rules are not geared to anything like a balanced game and it using none of the game mechanics that made WFB players loyal to the game for 8 EDITIONS, it's not aimed at the tournament scene - well I think we all understand why, so who exactly is this, this age of sigmar, this replacement for the oldest and longest running piece of IP GW had, who is it aimed at?

It seems to be nothing but a sideline event to selling models, but I genuinely think it has been handled so badly that it won't even manage to sell models or be enough of a sideline event to sustain itself.

Like I said I wanted it to work, I like some of the ideals that other posters have touched on. But GW seem to have managed to miss almost every target for appealing to anyone with this.

Of course there will be people that like it, but there are also people that take pleasure from having nipple clamps applied and being hit with a cheesegrater on the end of a stick. I'm just saying that there aren't as many people who like getting hit with a cheesegrater as there are those that like to grate cheese through one.

Wishing
28-07-2015, 08:41
My only caveat broadly for AoS (aside from the points thing, but that's a little less relevant to what both of us want) is that as of yet I still don't know what makes sense in the setting. There's nothing in the rules to prevent someone from bringing a chimera, a Nurgle lord, the Green Knight and 17 skaven clanrats to a game.

I'm curious about this too. As I understand it, the races are divided up by a kind of alignment, so you have chaos, order, death, and so on. I presume that the idea is that races from the same alignment work well together, and that this is (or will be) reflected in the rules somehow. With the strong theme of free-form force construction, I presume that the rules won't say "you cannot do this" - i.e. that you would be allowed to bring your nurgle lord and green knight if you want - but that they will encourage you to field models that have thematic connections. They have a system like this in PP's Monsterpocalypse, as I remember it - you can combine models from different alignments, but if your force only contains models of the same alignment, you get bonuses.

I just wish that chaos and death were the same alignment somehow - I am a big nurgle fan, and am attached to the fact that the realm of chaos nurgle list contained plague zombies and plague skeletons. I should be able to have plague undead in my nurgle armies without it feeling like this is out of theme.

The question of square vs. round bases is one I am really struggling with at the moment. In theory, I like round bases, and my daemon armies all have round bases because I aligned them to 40k. One of my first games was Advanced Heroquest, and my love of skaven definitely comes partially from that - and the skaven in that game were on round bases. So logically, I should be all for the round bases.

But it hurts me, and I really don't want to shift away from the square bases. So many years of looking at pictures of WHFB and Mordheim models all being on square bases has left a powerful imprint on my brain that fantasy = square bases. I think it will take some time for me to get over that.

75hastings69
28-07-2015, 08:49
I'm curious about this too. As I understand it, the races are divided up by a kind of alignment, so you have chaos, order, death, and so on. I presume that the idea is that races from the same alignment work well together, and that this is (or will be) reflected in the rules somehow.

This is one of the things that bothers me the most about the whole AoS release, sure go to a 4 page rulebook to simplify things, but that has left everything so ambiguous that it feels totally unfinished. If these things get added via warscrolls or whatever the complexity of multiple army books and too many rules etc. will not have been addressed, as each time anything gets updated you'll need to relearn and make sure you have the most up to date version etc.

Clewz
28-07-2015, 10:27
I just wish that chaos and death were the same alignment somehow - I am a big nurgle fan, and am attached to the fact that the realm of chaos nurgle list contained plague zombies and plague skeletons. I should be able to have plague undead in my nurgle armies without it feeling like this is out of theme.


you could always say the necromancer/ vampire has been turned (a bit like end times) or that they are slaves to some chaos lord

Captain Marius
28-07-2015, 10:52
AoS has come as a breath of fresh air to me - for years now my collecting impulse has been along the lines of "ill get that dragon/mortis engine/unit of demigryphs when ive bought and painted up another battalions worth of core troops" the result being i bought nothing. Since End Times started ive bought all the special characters ive always wanted, regardless of faction, and have staryed adding the fun units now im not compelled to just add another rank to make them more competitive.

Re: using square bases in AoS, ive been using my big units on movement trays just fine - when they want to change formation i just take them off. I reckon squares give you a minor advantage in ranked combat as you can get more fighters into attack range!

Wishing
28-07-2015, 11:17
you could always say the necromancer/ vampire has been turned (a bit like end times) or that they are slaves to some chaos lord

I tend to just tell myself that undead were part of the nurgle army in an edition long ago, so my (theoretical) collection of plague undead just belongs to that era. It would just be kinda nice if they were acknowledged in the current era too.

When it comes to necromancy and plague undead, I guess nurgle himself was their controlling necromancer. :) (Maybe I should check the book again...)


AoS has come as a breath of fresh air to me - for years now my collecting impulse has been along the lines of "ill get that dragon/mortis engine/unit of demigryphs when ive bought and painted up another battalions worth of core troops" the result being i bought nothing.

Big thumbs up. That's exactly the kind of thing that makes me happy.

I can see the other side of the coin too though. The reason that blocks of ranked troops were mandatory in WHFB was, presumably, that blocks of ranked troops look *great*. You only have to look at Warmaster to see this. When you zoom out and look at an army of six times 40 strong ranked units marching down the table, it is a spectacular scene. That is not what AoS is about, as far as I can tell - so I can understand the people that may be sad that this aspect of WHFB is lost going forward. But I think the benefits in the ease of getting into AoS makes it worth it.

75hastings69
28-07-2015, 11:19
AoS has come as a breath of fresh air to me - for years now my collecting impulse has been along the lines of "ill get that dragon/mortis engine/unit of demigryphs when ive bought and painted up another battalions worth of core troops" the result being i bought nothing. Since End Times started ive bought all the special characters ive always wanted, regardless of faction, and have staryed adding the fun units now im not compelled to just add another rank to make them more competitive.
!

And a serious question, what was stopping you doing this with WFB?

As I said earlier my VC army contained Brets (and also a few beastmen/zombies, empire/zombies and dwarves/zombies) I figure necromancers aren't too fussy what race they resurrect! My Ostland Empire Army had Dwarves and Halflings in it. NOT ONCE did an opponent say "I'm not playing" they often said, wow they look really great mixed in like that!

You say you were "compelled" to add another rank? why did you HAVE to do it with models you didn't like the look of? you could have added Demigryph knights to say an undead army claiming they were recently turned blood knights etc. People seem by and large to have limited themselves to what they could and couldn't do in WFB and now seem to be saying AoS lets me do it! of course AoS lets you do it, because it contains very little in the way of rules and actually REQUIRES you to come up with a story/narritive for your force, NOTHING was stopping people doing that in WFB. Maybe I'm just not getting this side of things at all. It is YOUR hobby, if you really HAVE to buy WHAT YOU ARE TOLD TO then Mr Kirby is exactly bang on the money with not doing any market research because people will buy exactly what GW tells them to.

Longstrider
28-07-2015, 11:25
I'm curious about this too. As I understand it, the races are divided up by a kind of alignment, so you have chaos, order, death, and so on. I presume that the idea is that races from the same alignment work well together, and that this is (or will be) reflected in the rules somehow. With the strong theme of free-form force construction, I presume that the rules won't say "you cannot do this" - i.e. that you would be allowed to bring your nurgle lord and green knight if you want - but that they will encourage you to field models that have thematic connections. They have a system like this in PP's Monsterpocalypse, as I remember it - you can combine models from different alignments, but if your force only contains models of the same alignment, you get bonuses.

I just wish that chaos and death were the same alignment somehow - I am a big nurgle fan, and am attached to the fact that the realm of chaos nurgle list contained plague zombies and plague skeletons. I should be able to have plague undead in my nurgle armies without it feeling like this is out of theme.


Well, nothing in the rules stops you from doing so. A necromancer plus some zombies may not synergise with a host of Nurgle daemons mechanically, but as you point out the fluff (plague zombies) is there. It can just be a self contained package you place alongside a daemon army, and you can link it with basing and modelling. Heck, the 'necromancer' can just as easily be some kind of crazy plague priest, whose followers eat food that's (de)consecrated to turn them into their new zombified state.

That, in my view, is the best part of the new AoS world, in that the rules no longer get in the way of cool or thematic stories. The downside of course is that army building restrictions enforced that you stick to some idea of theme, or at least provided some guidelines. This nurgle daemons plus zombies thing is perfectly fine and makes sense in the world, and I'd be happy to play a game against it. But I'm much less interested in playing against a game where dwarves and skaven both wind up on the same side, say (unless there's an actually interesting piece of story that makes it work). And in any case, all of that could be perfectly compatible with points systems - 40k unbound works that way, after all.

75hastings69
28-07-2015, 11:28
Well, nothing in the rules stops you from doing so. A necromancer plus some zombies may not synergise with a host of Nurgle daemons mechanically, but as you point out the fluff (plague zombies) is there. It can just be a self contained package you place alongside a daemon army, and you can link it with basing and modelling. Heck, the 'necromancer' can just as easily be some kind of crazy plague priest, whose followers eat food that's (de)consecrated to turn them into their new zombified state.

Dude the rules are 4 pages long, they don't really start you doing anything let alone stop you. All of this was possible with WFB as well, well apart from the rules about pretending to be on a horse to get a +1 etc. :)

Wishing
28-07-2015, 12:34
And a serious question, what was stopping you doing this with WFB?

If I can answer this on behalf of myself alone, then for me, it's just about a level of "mental effort" if you will.

Taking the WH models and using them in creative ways is totally awesome, and you don't need AoS to do it. Agreed. If I wanted to build a warband of two questing knights, a reliquiary, three yeomen and eight battle pilgrims and use them to represent a lost brettonian pilgrimage through a chaos-infested wasteland in the style of a realm of chaos narrative campaign, I could do so at any time. It would be brilliant and very rewarding, I imagine.

But it can take a lot of mental energy and creativity to build something up from the ground like that. As I wrote in the OP, to me, it makes a psychological difference whether I am doing something that feels like it is going *against* the currently available rules associated with the models in question, or *with* them. If I feel like I am going *with* them, it makes it easier somehow. It doesn't feel like I am swimming against the current, even if it's entirely based in feeling and not real difficulty.

Shandor
28-07-2015, 12:39
Im playing a Drow (D&D) themed Darkelf Army in the 8th Edition. Because i like Drow much better then the WH Darkelves.
So i had alot Models converted for my Darkelves. I dont have Khaine on the Bloodshrine.. there is a Deamon up there.
Worked on Drider (Like Centaures but a Mix of Spiders and Darkelfes)
Instead of a Hydra the Darkelfes send a Balor (Deamonprince) into Battle.
My Sorcress are Cleriks of Lloth. (Caster in Plate Armor and whips)
And they got Undead in thier Army.

I only getting positive resoance about the composition. I dont know what did stop you Pre AoS to build what you want.

Wishing
28-07-2015, 12:45
And in any case, all of that could be perfectly compatible with points systems - 40k unbound works that way, after all.

Well, there's two different restriction mechanics in the old system that normally work together. One is "you can only take the stuff we tell you will work together", the other is "stuff costs points and you have to use the right number of points".

40k unbound removes the first restriction, but not the second. AoS removes both. Removing points means that you can have the army size you want. There is no such thing as having too few models or too many models.

You are totally correct that you can have freedom from the "race cohesion" restriction without also taking away the points restriction. That AoS went the whole way, instead of part of the way like unbound, is just a feature of AoS, subject to much discussion.

75hastings69
28-07-2015, 12:59
If I can answer this on behalf of myself alone, then for me, it's just about a level of "mental effort" if you will.

Taking the WH models and using them in creative ways is totally awesome, and you don't need AoS to do it. Agreed. If I wanted to build a warband of two questing knights, a reliquiary, three yeomen and eight battle pilgrims and use them to represent a lost brettonian pilgrimage through a chaos-infested wasteland in the style of a realm of chaos narrative campaign, I could do so at any time. It would be brilliant and very rewarding, I imagine.

But it can take a lot of mental energy and creativity to build something up from the ground like that. As I wrote in the OP, to me, it makes a psychological difference whether I am doing something that feels like it is going *against* the currently available rules associated with the models in question, or *with* them. If I feel like I am going *with* them, it makes it easier somehow. It doesn't feel like I am swimming against the current, even if it's entirely based in feeling and not real difficulty.

That's fair enough, I understand and agree with that to a degree.

When the available rules basically consist of nothing and to set up a decent battle you have to think even harder than before about how to balance it or at least a narritive then I feel that the feelings that were stopping you before are pretty minor. It's a shame because there was some really great themed armies out there for 8th that had a huge eclectic mix of miniatures, I was particularly please with my Ostland army (even if I did get caught up converting too many minis for it!) but some that were out there were nothing shy of outstanding.

I think the whole disappointment over AoS for me really above everything else is knowing that it COULD have been awesome, some of the ideas especially for the freeflow narrative driven army building I would have embraced, it was just pulled off so spectacularly badly that even the most stalwart of WFB gamers I know deem it too much of an effort to even try and mod themselves to make a decent game, those that want it are sticking with 8th, 3 guys have bought into AoS, although beyond 1 of them buying a shed load of round bases for his Night Goblins (because they look wrong on square bases??) the actual buying they have done between the 3 of them consists of 2 box sets of AoS since day of release, that is it, total. That's not a good sign.

Captain Marius
28-07-2015, 13:08
And a serious question, what was stopping you doing this with WFB?

A fair question! Im kind of embarassed to admit, the answer is i was obsessed with being able to field my whole collections legally, meaning for 8th I felt that 25% of each collection HAD to be core. Added to the requirement of having like 30-50 models per unit, this eventually put the kibosh on my wfb spending as i mentioned. And no, i have still not played a game using any of my whole armies!

Its probably worth mentioning that me and my gaming buddy have already comped AoS to hell so we can get roughly balanced games, if we feel the need!

Shandor
28-07-2015, 13:13
A fair question! Im kind of embarassed to admit, the answer is i was obsessed with being able to field my whole collections legally, meaning for 8th I felt that 25% of each collection HAD to be core. Added to the requirement of having like 30-50 models per unit, this eventually put the kibosh on my wfb spending as i mentioned. And no, i have still not played a game using any of my whole armies!

Its probably worth mentioning that me and my gaming buddy have already comped AoS to hell so we can get roughly balanced games, if we feel the need!

Well on WHF you had the choice to build an army with the Rules, build with your Own Rules or build with no rules at all.
With AoS you only could build with no Rules at all or make your own rules.

75hastings69
28-07-2015, 13:14
Well, there's two different restriction mechanics in the old system that normally work together. One is "you can only take the stuff we tell you will work together", the other is "stuff costs points and you have to use the right number of points".

40k unbound removes the first restriction, but not the second. AoS removes both. Removing points means that you can have the army size you want. There is no such thing as having too few models or too many models.

You are totally correct that you can have freedom from the "race cohesion" restriction without also taking away the points restriction. That AoS went the whole way, instead of part of the way like unbound, is just a feature of AoS, subject to much discussion.

I don't think the points system necessarily needed to be removed to allow players to build what they wanted, it just needed rules or guidelines on how best to achieve some sort of balance when doing this. And in all honesty this was available in the GW publications "the generals compendium" and the "warhammer Skirmish" booklet that IIRC came free with WD one month (might have been the one with the tau fire warrior on the front crouched on a pile of skulls), or even more widely available on the net. It really does seem to me more and more that people limited themselves with what they could and couldn't do in WFB and indeed how they played the game. I guess it matters not now. For the future I guess it just matters that all those who have invested in AoS manage to work out how to get what they want from it. I really do look forward to seeing how some of the forums more imaginative players/hobbyists develop the "rules". I'm going to end the post with a bit of a revelation as everyone seems to think I currently hate everything........... I really think that the models look loads better on round bases!

75hastings69
28-07-2015, 13:25
A fair question! Im kind of embarassed to admit, the answer is i was obsessed with being able to field my whole collections legally, meaning for 8th I felt that 25% of each collection HAD to be core. Added to the requirement of having like 30-50 models per unit, this eventually put the kibosh on my wfb spending as i mentioned. And no, i have still not played a game using any of my whole armies!

Its probably worth mentioning that me and my gaming buddy have already comped AoS to hell so we can get roughly balanced games, if we feel the need!

So you did in fact impose restrictions upon yourself in how you collected, built, and played. I find this very interesting as it is becoming more evident that this is the case for a lot of people. My hat is really off as Kirby and GW were right, people will buy what we tell them to. It's a shame as with hindsight a lot of people missed a trick with WFB. We had some great times building just armies to fit round stories/narratives/themes, to have restricted youself to an almost tournament style of army building but not actually play is a real shame. We still stuck to the rules (special, core percentages etc.) but used a lot of counts as i.e. 2 dwarf gunners in a unit of 10 empire handgunners wouldn't make much difference in real life as to how effective they were as a unit, so why should it in game? the stats stay the same for the 10 "men" and the 2 dwarves get an interesting bit of narrative saying they're lived in Ostland since they were nothing but beardlings and had become largely accepted by the local community etc. etc. I even had an unreleased halfling model with a tankard of ale and a mace that was the champion of my Ostland Empire Free Company, he was actually the landlord of a local tavern (sadly only ever named the "bulls head") and also in the same unit was an Ogre (who was the doorman/muscle in his tavern) his base took 4 human bases, but the rules stayed the same for the unit, they were 20 empire free company (even though they were actually 14 humans, a halfling, an ogre and a dwarf). So as you see we kept to the "percentages" but were liberal in doing so.

Theocracity
28-07-2015, 13:31
For the future I guess it just matters that all those who have invested in AoS manage to work out how to get what they want from it. I really do look forward to seeing how some of the forums more imaginative players/hobbyists develop the "rules". I'm going to end the post with a bit of a revelation as everyone seems to think I currently hate everything........... I really think that the models look loads better on round bases!

Well said. Fortunately I think a lot of the people who are into AoS were already the types who were interested in tweaking rules to make things more interesting, even if they often didn't feel empowered to do so in the social standards of earlier editions.

Edit:


So you did in fact impose restrictions upon yourself in how you collected, built, and played. I find this very interesting as it is becoming more evident that this is the case for a lot of people. My hat is really off as Kirby and GW were right, people will buy what we tell them to. It's a shame as with hindsight a lot of people missed a trick with WFB. We had some great times building just armies to fit round stories/narratives/themes, to have restricted youself to an almost tournament style of army building but not actually play is a real shame.

Yup, it's one of the unfortunate truths of older editions that the social standards of tournament play reduced people's likelihood of building interesting non-standard armies. It didn't suppress it entirely, but given the choice between spending money and time on a 'neat idea' army or spending it chasing the tournament meta, a lot of people chose the latter as that's the way they were garaunteed to get games in with them.


We still stuck to the rules (special, core percentages etc.) but used a lot of counts as i.e. 2 dwarf gunners in a unit of 10 empire handgunners wouldn't make much difference in real life as to how effective they were as a unit, so why should it in game? the stats stay the same for the 10 "men" and the 2 dwarves get an interesting bit of narrative saying they're lived in Ostland since they were nothing but beardlings and had become largely accepted by the local community etc. etc. I even had an unreleased halfling model with a tankard of ale and a mace that was the champion of my Ostland Empire Free Company, he was actually the landlord of a local tavern (sadly only ever named the "bulls head") and also in the same unit was an Ogre (who was the doorman/muscle in his tavern) his base took 4 human bases, but the rules stayed the same for the unit, they were 20 empire free company (even though they were actually 14 humans, a halfling, an ogre and a dwarf). So as you see we kept to the "percentages" but were liberal in doing so.

Sounds pretty awesome!

Captain Marius
28-07-2015, 14:33
I hadn't thought about it like that Hastings - i think previously the rules informed what I'd collect, whereas now what I've collected informs how ive modded the AoS rules.

I could quite happily go on picking up models ive missed for the foreseeable future, eg mortis engine and cauldron of blood, and dont currently plan on investing in the new IP until ive at least played thru the 10ish End Times games weve planned!

Similarly i wont be rebasing anything but will switch to rounds when i inevitably start a Sigmarine army. I think the fact bases are all but irrelevant is a strength of the new rules.

75hastings69
28-07-2015, 14:42
Sounds pretty awesome!

and my friend that was in WFB 8th with it's dreadfully restrictive nature ;) and it was a totally playable army (that I should add I NEVER seemed to do well with! LOL) If I had come up against an opponent that didn't want to play because my handgunners had dwarves in, or my free men had a halfling, ogre & dwarf in (the 14 humans I figured were probably just locals in the tavern), then they most probably weren't in the hobby or wanting to actually play the game for the same reasons I was, as to be brutally honest I sucked at WFB, only enjoying a modicum of success funnily enough when things like trolls & NG Fanatics were involved!


...... but will switch to rounds when i inevitably start a Sigmarine army.........

oh dear, I was just starting to like you, then you go and drop this bomb on me ;)

SuperHappyTime
28-07-2015, 14:43
So AoS has had the completely opposite effect on me. I was buying models before pretty regularly before and haven't bought anything since.

My collecting goal was simple: 1000 points of each army, built more to look like an army than to care about percentiles. Take this as you want, but for me it felt more creative to try and work in the army building constrictions and to choose to violate the army building rules as I saw fit than "Take whatever you want". ET:Nagash's changes helped so much too (as I wanted heroes and not lords, I could buy a bigger army and still have two characters).

I like that AoS has a lot more model interactions. But the armies don't feel like they are as close to being full factions as they were before. What I disliked the most about Daemons (and slightly about warriors) is that they felt quite fractured and should be looked at as four different armies rather than one. This fracturing got brought to the other old armies, so it doesn't feel as comfortable to put Bretonnian peasants and knights in the same army (or Wood Elves and Tree Spirits, Any of the four Skaven factions, Saurus and Skinks, etc). This wouldn't be as bad if some factions are more than spam two models

The points are an issue too, but there is plenty of systems that do a good balancing job so far. All these things are just contributing to my non-purchase.

Kingly
28-07-2015, 14:57
Great thread wishing, really nice read mate.

I've been put off posting on here because I've found WS has become a haven of negativity, that and the fact I know someone who posts on here who claims he used to buy loads and loads of models every year but now he's quit GW because of AoS.

Truth is he's a compulsive liar (Looking at you Adam) Guy hasn't bought anything WHFB related ever, let alone stopped because of this lovely release, and then to read loads of people consoling him & agreeing with his sentiment, pretty much made me realise the majority of posts on here are all from the same type of people...

But then there are posts like these that shine like a bright lovely bulb surrounded by all the filth, and it makes me want to continue being an active member of this forum.

I've always wanted to do a massively mixed army for Warhammer, using WoC, Beasts & Deamons and AoS has given me that opportunity and I'm so happy, so yea I love it. I also think Fantasy figures look sooooo much better on round bases!

Shandor
28-07-2015, 14:58
So AoS has had the completely opposite effect on me. I was buying models before pretty regularly before and haven't bought anything since.

My collecting goal was simple: 1000 points of each army, built more to look like an army than to care about percentiles. Take this as you want, but for me it felt more creative to try and work in the army building constrictions and to choose to violate the army building rules as I saw fit than "Take whatever you want". ET:Nagash's changes helped so much too (as I wanted heroes and not lords, I could buy a bigger army and still have two characters).

I like that AoS has a lot more model interactions. But the armies don't feel like they are as close to being full factions as they were before. What I disliked the most about Daemons (and slightly about warriors) is that they felt quite fractured and should be looked at as four different armies rather than one. This fracturing got brought to the other old armies, so it doesn't feel as comfortable to put Bretonnian peasants and knights in the same army (or Wood Elves and Tree Spirits, Any of the four Skaven factions, Saurus and Skinks, etc). This wouldn't be as bad if some factions are more than spam two models

The points are an issue too, but there is plenty of systems that do a good balancing job so far. All these things are just contributing to my non-purchase.

Yeah without a Game Left to play for me its kinda Depressing. I did spend around 3000€ last 2 years.. now i dont know why i should buy any more Models. I had still so much plans for my armys. Get some Skin Wolves from Forgeworld to replace Crypt Ghuls and stuff like that. But i dont want to buy them just for the Vitrine.

HammerofThunor
28-07-2015, 15:56
So AoS has had the completely opposite effect on me. I was buying models before pretty regularly before and haven't bought anything since.

My collecting goal was simple: 1000 points of each army, built more to look like an army than to care about percentiles. Take this as you want, but for me it felt more creative to try and work in the army building constrictions and to choose to violate the army building rules as I saw fit than "Take whatever you want". ET:Nagash's changes helped so much too (as I wanted heroes and not lords, I could buy a bigger army and still have two characters).

I like that AoS has a lot more model interactions. But the armies don't feel like they are as close to being full factions as they were before. What I disliked the most about Daemons (and slightly about warriors) is that they felt quite fractured and should be looked at as four different armies rather than one. This fracturing got brought to the other old armies, so it doesn't feel as comfortable to put Bretonnian peasants and knights in the same army (or Wood Elves and Tree Spirits, Any of the four Skaven factions, Saurus and Skinks, etc). This wouldn't be as bad if some factions are more than spam two models

The points are an issue too, but there is plenty of systems that do a good balancing job so far. All these things are just contributing to my non-purchase.

I'm similar with the fractionated look of armies. All my chaos are mono-god so they're unified. But it certainly put me off doing armies like Eldar with the traditional aspect colours.

But I don't get that with some of the other armies, you were referring to (if I understood you correctly). My wife has a lizardman army and I've had some impact on painting them up. The theme was a darker blue for the skin for the bigger lizardmen (skinks lightest, Krox the darkest). Then the scales were coloured based on the unit type. So skinks herding salamanders had orange scales, cold one riders had green scales, etc.

As for the new stuff, personally disregarding all the old stuff as legacy. So everything is definitely fragmented and disjointed at the moment.

HammerofThunor
28-07-2015, 15:58
Great thread wishing, really nice read mate.

I've been put off posting on here because I've found WS has become a haven of negativity, that and the fact I know someone who posts on here who claims he used to buy loads and loads of models every year but now he's quit GW because of AoS.

Truth is he's a compulsive liar (Looking at you Adam) Guy hasn't bought anything WHFB related ever, let alone stopped because of this lovely release, and then to read loads of people consoling him & agreeing with his sentiment, pretty much made me realise the majority of posts on here are all from the same type of people...

But then there are posts like these that shine like a bright lovely bulb surrounded by all the filth, and it makes me want to continue being an active member of this forum.

I've always wanted to do a massively mixed army for Warhammer, using WoC, Beasts & Deamons and AoS has given me that opportunity and I'm so happy, so yea I love it. I also think Fantasy figures look sooooo much better on round bases!

I wouldn't base blanket opinions on one guy you know. Sure, don't take it to heart or believe everything you read but that goes for life in general. And also, it can work both ways. Positive comments can be just as full of **** as negative ones. They're just not as soul destroyed when relentlessly bombarded by (but only just).

Griefbringer
28-07-2015, 17:32
there was some really great themed armies out there for 8th that had a huge eclectic mix of miniatures


There have been great themed armies around at least since 6th edition, if not even before. The introduction of multi-part plastics from 1998 onwards must have played a partial role, since it made posing and converting models a lot easier. Also during the 6th edition days WD used to occasionally display all sorts of personal themed armies.

Vampire counts must have been one of the strong contenders, with people happily mxing Empire and Bretonnian ranges with zombie and skeleton bits. And then there were the "dead rising" models that were made by skinflints from leftover zombie/skeleton heads and arms glued to a spare base, possibly supplemented by a tombstone. But for more original stuff, WD was featured a spirit host that consisted of a selection of all sorts of figures glued to 40 mm bases but painted to look really ghostly - that was very impressive and coherent looking, even though the models came from diverse sources.

And then there was also the DoW army list, which could end up as a fair bit of circus, since you could mix in figures from all sorts of ranges (especially since there were not many official models outside the RoR units).

memitchell747
28-07-2015, 21:26
One could always play a themed army, or alternative army. Now, with no rules or restrictions, EVERY army is themed. Or, NONE are.

To the original topic, I'm curious who, and how many people want to buy into a game with really expensive models, an opaque background, strange neo-names, and barely there rules? Will "fun dumb scrum" support spending $500+ on unpainted models? To what end? There is no limit to what can go into an "army." Night Goblins plus Judiators plus Lead Belchers? Goretide plus Sisters of Sigmar? Is complete lack of structure liberating, or lazy?

Wishing
28-07-2015, 22:02
To the original topic, I'm curious who, and how many people want to buy into a game with really expensive models, an opaque background, strange neo-names, and barely there rules? Will "fun dumb scrum" support spending $500+ on unpainted models? To what end? There is no limit to what can go into an "army." Night Goblins plus Judiators plus Lead Belchers? Goretide plus Sisters of Sigmar? Is complete lack of structure liberating, or lazy?

Good question. I suspect the answer will vary from person to person, so someone who likes the lack of structure will find it liberating, and someone who really prefers structure will find it lazy.

About whether people will actually buy models for this game/hobby or not - good question. On one hand, it is easier to get started, which should get more people buying. On the other hand, there is no pressure to get to 2400 points, so people might buy less. Being in a positive mood, I think the people that will buy more freely because of the lack of restrictions will make up for the people no longer building 2400 point armies. Presumably that's what GW are predicting too.

madden
28-07-2015, 22:27
Yes thats worked for me as i can finally get those larger kits and specils that i couldnt use in 8th as points restrictions (and yes i could have ignored them but where i play its the book or nothing maybe a one off senario but meh) also theres kits from diffrent armies i like but wouldnt get because i couldnt use them, now i can for me and my group AoS is great and were liking it a lot.

Dosiere
29-07-2015, 04:52
Great thread wishing, really nice read mate.

I've been put off posting on here because I've found WS has become a haven of negativity, that and the fact I know someone who posts on here who claims he used to buy loads and loads of models every year but now he's quit GW because of AoS.

Truth is he's a compulsive liar (Looking at you Adam) Guy hasn't bought anything WHFB related ever, let alone stopped because of this lovely release, and then to read loads of people consoling him & agreeing with his sentiment, pretty much made me realise the majority of posts on here are all from the same type of people...

But then there are posts like these that shine like a bright lovely bulb surrounded by all the filth, and it makes me want to continue being an active member of this forum.

I've always wanted to do a massively mixed army for Warhammer, using WoC, Beasts & Deamons and AoS has given me that opportunity and I'm so happy, so yea I love it. I also think Fantasy figures look sooooo much better on round bases!

Posts like these confuse me. You think you're being a beacon light, reason, and goodwill. In the same post that you call the majority of people that post here compulsive liars? I have to believe you're either trolling or you haven't the ability to realize that maybe your alleged (I have good reason to doubt your claims as most people who post here are compulsive liars) gamer acquaintance Adam doesn't represent the thousands of posters from all across the hobby. Whatever....

Back on topic, AoS hasn't gotten me collecting anything yet. I don't like playing the bad guy and the sigmarines just don't do it for me. I am eagerly awaiting whatever the new human factions are. If the miniatures are less boring (especially fluff wise) than the current ones I may very well start a new collection. Kind of surprised they haven't released other stuff yet besides the stormcast.

Kherith
29-07-2015, 07:05
I was kind of hoping each faction would get a page or two in the campaign book followed by a splash release with everyone getting an updated or new unit over the course of a couple of months while they built up the Sigmarines products. Thats clearly not happening and the Sigmarines look like they're the story for another few weeks at least.

Kind of disappointing in one sense, but it does give me the chance to keep building up my elves with the current model range which for the most part I really like.

Wishing
29-07-2015, 08:22
I was kind of hoping each faction would get a page or two in the campaign book followed by a splash release with everyone getting an updated or new unit over the course of a couple of months while they built up the Sigmarines products. Thats clearly not happening and the Sigmarines look like they're the story for another few weeks at least.

I think this is a bit weird too. It's like they are releasing AoS as a new game - but not really, because they are also releasing it as a new army book for the sigmarines. There seems to be an assumption that the existing WHFB range is also the default AoS line, but since there are no new rules for the old models, only the "legacy" rules that clearly aren't real AoS rules, it seems like the only real AoS army rules we have is for the starter set models. Which is a little bit too little. It's as if they released Necromunda and the only gang rules and models available for the first few months are goliaths and.. that bandana gang. Orlocks?

Captain Marius
29-07-2015, 08:49
Theyve just started rereleasing old kits with round bases, first up is treemen and dryads alongside this weeks sigmarine unit. I'd guess theyll rebox the old kits that are staying a couple of units at a time, grouped by theme.

Kegslayer
29-07-2015, 09:13
I'm pleased with AoS in that I can now when my khorne stuff is done get the vampire counts army I have wanted for years. Never got it before as I disliked warhammer, ranks upon ranks of wound counters, square bases etc. Yes people enjoyed it and good they should have but for me it was just boring but now I can get to converting and painting up a well cool VC force