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Warboss Grimmtoof
06-07-2006, 00:55
Hello Warseer community. I have been a gamer for a long while now, and it is obvious that relations are not great between GW and it's own community. The gaming community as a whole is generally unhappy with GW's policies, services, and communications with them. Ignoring complaints, raising prices, and discouraging individuality. The reason for this is obvious, that the gaming community is disorganized. Im not speaking of GW itself, but rather the gamers. They cannot keep up with us, thousands of screaming voices become churned into a great angry chorus. I may not be a main member of this forum, but I believe that if we formed a committee and talked to them sensibly, that we have a greater chance of improving our hobby as a whole.

I may not have much power, neither does the majority of gamers, over GW's policies, but if many of us combined, than we would be able to change things for the better. The internet is a very valuable conduit to GW. If a thousand gamers are represented by one who is speaking to them, are they going to ignore him/her? A singular powerful voice speaking clearly, it is more powerful than any amount of protesting individuals. I realise that the gaming community does not agree on all subjects, that is the reason for most of the gaming forums, is to hear an opinion, and agree or disagree. But some subjects are easily agreed upon by most gamers, and these are almost always the biggest ones.

I believe that this forum is one of the greatest and largest forums out there, and its members are wonderful, which has made is a great force, though it may not have a purpose beyond individual discussion. This is not a bad thing, in fact it is wonderful to have a place to speak freely to people who have similar interests to yours, which is why I am asking this forum, to broaden its horizons, and form a organised system to speak to Games Workshop. If even half of this forum agrees with me, I believe we can truly change the face of our hobby for the better. I am asking for the Administrative staff of the Warseer to help organize this, since it wouldn't change anything if we all went at GW in our seperate directions.

I realise that this is ambitious and may seem far-fetched, but it is not as difficult as it seems. If we can utilise this websites vast recources to get a contact in GW, after we have organised ourselves, and put ourselves out there as a majority, than we will be heard!

Unseeing Eye
06-07-2006, 01:00
I don't think 'uniting' will have any affect. The internet is a minor proportion of the GW fan base.

Warboss Grimmtoof
06-07-2006, 01:07
There will be opposition to my proposal, and you have any right to be heard as I do. My proposal is clearly my opinions, not fact, Saying it is fact would be very arrogant. My proposal streamlined is to get a large community with a line to GW, not neccicarily internet, that can help with proposals of new ideas, suggestions, and majority consent of issues. If one wants to go a seperate way, that is your right, and I will not try to convince you otherwise, but I encourage you to assist, as if oppositon is slim, than the majority could be heard loud and clear.

sigur
06-07-2006, 01:38
The problem is that GW more or less ignores internet forums these days. Apart from people like Jervis Johnson and Gav Thorpe who seem to actually be in contact with the community apart from Games Days, the general opinion is that internet forums are like "shark pits" (quoted from some GW guy I don't remember on a GD) and that people don't have real opinions but just want to get attention and so on...:rolleyes:

The thing is, GW isn't taking customers seriously and they seem to believe that they don't have to because there are these legions of kids they have. Which sooner or later will prove to be a big mistake.

Kriegsherr
06-07-2006, 01:48
Okay, if GW would still be the small TT games company it was ten or twenty years ago, I would think this would be possible. But the "For Fans by Fans" mentality they had back then meant that customer feedback was more important back then anyway.

Lets face it: GW has grown so big it might be even too much for its own sake.
I for my part see paralleles to Microsoft. They hold a large part of the worldwide TT market, they tend to get less innovative every year, and have expanded to the point were there is no reasonable growth possible anymore in its core market.
Big Companies tend to loose touch with their customers, they are just not able anymore (or at least think so) to pay the manpower for getting feedback and reading it. The more customers you have, the more feedback.
And of course, a new management has taken over, that, while beeing very competent managers maybe, have no real grip of what their company REALLY does. Almost no manager has nowadays, believe me. Im an engineer in a big company, and my managers drive me crazy sometimes. When they think some ************ other managers put unto a Powerpoint slide has more weight than the words of the engineer with the insight into the project.

But while Microsoft has been quite or at least a little bit successfull by entering other business segments, the computer market presence of GW was, DoW aside, not too successfull (Now here I also think they just don't know the games market really well. Else they wouldn't even care about doing a Fantasy MMORPG. While I see a slight chance a 40k one could grab some market segments, a fantasy one will be killed by WoW. Its a ruthless market, much more than TT gaming).
Their Lotr license seems to lack a real deep insight into the nature of short hypes. It was obvious Lotr couldn't be more than a 3-Years season game, and not a core system.

But CoD has surprised me in a positive way. Maybe GW is finally learning from their mistakes, and starts to invest some serious thoughts into their two core systems, and starts to test some innovative ideas instead of holding unto old traditions when its obvious its time is over.


In conclusion: Warboss Grimmtoof, I salute you for your courage to try the almost impossible, and I hope you find a way in achivieng an organised way of communicating with our investment fund (at least a reasonable amont of my money is invested into the company ;)).
I for my part don't have the nerves anymore to just even try to get heard in a big company. And How GW treated In nomine imperatoris, the white dwarf and some other fanbased publications (and the rumour leaks) in the recent past speaks for their new ways of handling customer comments.
Either you talk with marketing or with their legal department.

Warboss Grimmtoof
06-07-2006, 01:57
Off to the legal department!:D I've already started a report.

dugaal
06-07-2006, 02:31
As Kriegsherr rightly put it, GW are a company whose core market are moreso new young players, not represented by these forums.
I still think you have a good idea on your hands, and perhaps were it to take the form of say, a slashdot Q&A, with the aid of the moderators and pre-negotiated interviewee, it might work.

for the uninitiated, a slashdot Q&A goes like this; person of interest agrees to answer some community questions.
a thread is started where all users post questions, from which moderators choose the best written/most sensible questions. these are then passed on to the interviewee.
afterwards, the community rips into the answers, while the interviewee is invited to comment as well, so long as it stays relavent to the submitted questions.

Id be nice if say we could get say Jervis to do this, although im sure it would pass through 10 layers of GW legal and management before we got the results.

ffclubhero
06-07-2006, 03:03
IMO this is a great idea. I'm not sure how it'll play out in the long run, but I say go for it.

Maybe if you got interested parties to PM you and then perhaps begin communicating that way? There's lots of ways it could go, but I think a 'single voice' concept will hold more weight, but only if the people involved realize they will have to follow through when push comes to shove (ex.: 'NO, we won't buy -fill in blank- because it's ridiculously overpriced.' Signed, -long list of hobbyists- The members would then not purchase the -fill in blank-). Just a few thoughts....

cailus
06-07-2006, 03:16
I don't understand the " GW's core market is young players." First of all how young? And are there any analyses that show a breakdown of sales by age group?

I've been a member of 2 clubs. At one there was probably about 20 players, most of whom were 18 and over. At the other one there is about 8 players, of which only 1 under 18. When I go to the stores where they stock GW, I have never seen anyone under the age of 16 browsing through the GW products.

Now I live in a town of only 80,000 people on an island of under 500,000 people, so GW clubs are not a common occurrence. The fact is that most people who get into GW games in this place are usually in their mid-late teens or older.

dugaal
06-07-2006, 04:31
Cailus, i believe I used that point in my post about 'young players' and from my experience In Toronto (with 2 GW stores) there is most likely more interest from kids walking into the store, where in remote areas, one must learn of GW elsewhere and get shipping, etc.
In my experience growing up 9/10 people who first get interested as kids lose the patience, desire etc to paint/assemble/play with miniatures, and stop. Beforehand, they undoubtably net their parents into buying the boxed game, an army, while getting friends to do the same. This initial rush of sales from a continual tide of new players is, at least speculated as, the core of GW's customers.

Companies do alter practices to match profitable areas, while cutting the coverage of unprofitable areas. If the continual release of space marines, the popularity of the boxed games, the LOTR bubble, and the death of specialist gaming has tought us anything, Its those products favoured by new players have been pushed to the front, while veteran friendly product lines have been downsized.
Im sure there are plenty of veterans who say 'i think ill start army X' and buy all in one go from MO, and as far as GW is concerned, those players dont need continual marketing and watching. what GW doesnt make, those players do themselves (look at what the Ork community has done over the years)

If some community forum relations were initiated however, it would undoubtably be cheap for them, and IMO very positive to what I would hope is a large segment of the gaming population. If we stick to objective, or at least positive questions, they wont have to fear a backlash. Hopefully even execs could weigh it positively enough to greenlight. As long as we can at least get a line to the real dev's, rather then some PR talking head....

cailus
06-07-2006, 05:02
Dugaal, I now understand what you're saying.

GW is actually not looking at creating long term customers but rather is trying to act like a traditional toy manufacturer - i.e. looking at trying to plug into trends that kids go through and make as much money as possible from each kid in a short period of time. By trend I mean the way children have little temporary interests that consume them until they find something else. So one month it might be Pokemon, the next Transformers, the one after Warhammer 40,000. And in that month they will pester their parents to buy as much as possible from that one toy brand. Kids generally change their interests regularly for social reasons as well as

And if you don't believe me, think back to when you were a kid. Just in Grade 6 (we were all about 10-11 years old and it was about 1992) my friends and I went through a Gi Joe phase, a Transformers phase, a Teenage Mutant Nnija Turtles phase, an obsession with toys from the $0.20 machine phase, a football mascot phase, a Guns N Roses phase, a skateboarding phase, and a Micromachines phase. These didn't last long (though I kept up with my GI Joe obsession for quite a while).

During the time of these phases, all we wanted were toy/items associated with that phase.

(On another note, I wish I could remember as much about the last few years as I do about my childhood - stays away from drugs and alcohol kiddies!)

Back on topic...

I think it's a flawed strategy. A veteran (or repeat customer) will spend thousands on the hobby over the space of decades. A child might scam a couple of hundred dollars out of their parents before the next interest comes along. GW is shooting themselves in the foot.

And the worst thing about relying on children is that the kids themselves are reliant on their parents. If parents think that $65 for 5 plastic toy soldiers is too much, they will resist their kids no matter what. But people over the age of 15-16+ generally have their own sources of funds and are independent in their usage of it (unless the missus says no. :P )

Warboss Grimmtoof
06-07-2006, 05:02
Thank you for the feedback guys. I dont expect this to be easy or fast, but I want to do something about it. A company should not grow to think itself so big that it can disregard its own customers as a nagging whisper. No video game that is crap will be tolerated, and this should pass over to wargaming as well. Tomorrow, if I have time (Found out just now I have lymes) I will start to pm people and get the word out to other forums and sections of this one that might not have noticed this.

ekister101
06-07-2006, 05:49
I used to manage a local game store and the owner of the store was very much in the same mindset that I see GW in now. The man who owned the store now runs most of Calendar Clubs gaming division. If you ever go to a mall after October, you have probably seen their stores: Calendar Club, X-Mas store, I Love Lucy Store, GO Games, etc. They have the buy-it-now culture in mind. I doubt that that man is much different than GW nobs. Make as much money as possible as quickly as possible. One day I rolled into work right on time as usual to find the store locks changed and a note on the door telling me the owner hadn't paid rent in 3 months and the store was done. I sense that GW may be in for the same issues if they are not careful.

When I started running the store, I had a few employees who played Warhammer. I had heard of the game, but came in with a great knowledge of card games like Magic and L5R. I was set, I had employees who could sell GW and I could sell cards. Now I had to deal with the owner whose vison was selling board games and poker sets. Board games that you can get a Walmart and Target as well as a nice wall of strategic games found at most of your good wargame stores. Poker that most malls now have a specific store that sells. Back then 2 of our 3 malls had one. It was a tough sell, but eventually he started to see the light. I couls sell the card games well enough to turn over 20-30 boxes of magic cards the day a new set came out and we had 2 leagues going and I was selling about $1500-2000 a week in 40k. I was scheduled to sell $85,000-100,000 in 40k when the store closed in July.

How did we do it? We sold to kids. A lot of kids. It was like melting butter with a stove. Get one involved and then you had his 2 buddies. Get those 2 buddies you have 5 more asking questions. You get the picture. Make some cool terrain (my employees on company time when the store was dead) and put it outside on Saturday, with some competent adults running the show. We also supported adult players by having a "veteran" night once a week when the store would stay open later. We were in a mall, so late was 10 pm, but... We had play nights, we had paint days, we had 40k lessons, we had fantasy lessons. We catered to the gamer, something I see many stores doing now. This is exactly what GW wants. In my local store now, I see lots of kids 16-20 buying lots of stuff. I saw one kid the other night buy 2000 points of Necrons in one swoop. To his credit about 500 points was painted 2 weeks later. Mind you I am there maybe 2 nights a week from 7 - 12 pm. I do not see weekends, nor do I see daytime hours. But I KNOW that there are often kids there with friends watching and looking at the games going on. They look at the stuff and sometimes the show mom and dad. Likely that they are coming back next allowance day in the middle of the day to buy.

Here is the kicker - how many come to play on Thursday and Friday night? Almost none. The kid with the Necrons is one of about 6 that are high schoolish age. The rest of the players there are 24+. Luckily there are about 20 of us, so things are good. Where do all those players go? They head home, glue their hands together and make up a few home rules to try and get some use out of their $100 and eventually all those GW models end up in the toy bin gathering moss with the micromachines, the pokemon cards, etc. This is what GW wants. They are endless. Every year 1000s of kids turn 12, 1000s turn 13, GW knows exactly what it needs - dedicated players like us to sustain the game play so little kids can see us and go "hey, mom, I want THAT!!!!"

This is why I have built a table in my house. Before last year I was getting a game a week at home. I am building relationships now that will allow me to never have to go to my local again. Will I continue to support the game? Sure, but only 2nd hand. Bartertown and eBay are my friends. Will I ever paint another model? Nah, just wait for some decent painter to move to another place where 40k isn't popular and buy it from them.

Am I bitter? Nah, I love the game, love most of the models and get a kick out of playing a stretegy based game that changes everytime. Its a blast. Do I have to support the entity that made the game? No. I dislike their business practices, but I know that is our self-obsessive and give-it-to-me-know world. We are consumers and as long as we exist the GW's will profit.

Can we change them? I seriously doubt it, but what we can shoot for is decent support of the games we choose. Is GW supplying this? In my mind they are better than most. Do I wish they would come out with a new Ork codex, your d**m right I am, but am I glad to have a DH and WH codex instead? Sure why not. How about all those Tau players? Would you give them up for a new DE codex, some would, others not, I know I wouldn't. Live with it and play what you want to play and life gets easier, so does the game.

Enough rant...

Have fun

Ekister

cailus
06-07-2006, 06:51
Nice post Ekister. It's always good to hear from someone with first hand experience in the market.

dugaal
06-07-2006, 07:06
Cailus, you fleshed out my arguement perfecty, cheers.

The GW we knew in the 80's started by budding hobbist's, now has PR/legal departments, a major distribution network, shareholders to please, and analysts following whatever trend will steer the beast towards the greatest profits. in effect, the same structure as any for-profit organization. What the LoTR bubble has shown however, is their oversight of the fickle nature of short-term profits. One would hope that in light of such events, GW would appreciate its long term customers a bit more. Like ekister101 said about the GO Games manager, GW could very well be on thin ice following this all or nothing route.

what they have somewhat forgotten down the road is the real world value of customer satisfaction and community interaction. not only does it increase positive word of mouth advertising, But provides a cheap mass focus group. Im sure in addition to their legal dept's efforts to quash leaked information, they spend time looking for trends in what players are asking for.
(so keep the 'who loves orks?!' thread alive!)

If they could do this openly, or at least give some indication that they are listening to their customers, Id think it would go along way in increasing their standing. Even If they cant be the company they were 15 years ago, some reverence for the community relationship that got them to where they are today could only help.

Now the question; how do we steer them into the right direction?

cailus
06-07-2006, 07:43
You are right. They should be fostering a greater feeling of community. This isn't because everyone feels warm and fuzzy, but because it will maintain their sales levels.

I don't know if GW has heard, but repeat customers are a good thing.

Sir_Turalyon
06-07-2006, 07:58
My proposal streamlined is to get a large community with a line to GW, not neccicarily internet, that can help with proposals of new ideas, suggestions, and majority consent of issues.


If GW were interested in oppinion of their customers, or any "community" of their customers, they would have set one up on their own boards, or around their web page in general. They did not, and seem to use their boards as another marketing tool. Until they want to listen, it is futile to try to communicate with them in other way then by buying or not buying their miniatures. That's only way of communication they seem interested in.

buzzin_yoof
06-07-2006, 07:58
I don't think 'uniting' will have any affect. The internet is a minor proportion of the GW fan base.

I think Unseeing Eye has got it here. There are many more GW game players than people on the internet forums.

Also, although there are a lot of intelligent comments made on the forums there are also a large number of belly-achers and GW haters that really reduce the credibility of the forum community overall.

I think it is worth pointing out that most people are OK with GW - otherwise they would go play someone else's games. That is the problem with the internet forums - far too many loud mouth whiners (see above post) dominate discussions and give a false impression that everyone hates GW. It stands to reason that the silent majority are OK with GW simply because they choose to stay (and spend) in the hobby.

Captain Rufus
06-07-2006, 08:57
What I don't understand is how other companies with MUCH greater populations of customers will listen to said customers, yet GW not only ignores us Net folk, but outright insults us.

Then again, we have a company who shuts down people who make cute avatars of their stuff, flips out if anyone puts too much detail in an army list, (OMG LISTING POINTS VALUES IS A THREAT OMG!!!) and actively keeps other companies from selling their stuff for them. (Many businesses won't even sell to the general public. They only sell to distributors or retailers who then deal with the customers.)

Is it us, or is it because Games Workshop keeps fragging things up and they refuse to listen?

I think its the latter more than the former. Their sheer arrogance is slowly catching up to them, and companies like Wizkids, WOTC, Privateer, Mongoose, and Rackham (among other companies) are quickly nipping at their heels, especially outside of the UK.

It reminds me of the videogame wars. Almost every 5 years a company gets arrogant, anti consumer, and even anti retailer. Within that same rough timeframe another company comes in, does things better and swipes the first company's market share.

Nintendo had over 90% of the videogame market in the late eighties. Now its a shadow of its former self, and arrogance is what did it in. It told retailers what it could sell and for how much, it told developers how many games it could make, it told customers what level of technology we were ready for, what kind of content we could have in our games, what kinds of games we could play, and what kind of media we were going to play it on.

Sega did things a bit different and nearly beat them in a single hardware generation. However due to mismanagement and their own arrogance they threw it all away.

And Sony picked up the pieces, and pretty much owned the videogame market for the last decade. And they are pulling the SAME arrogant nonsense, causing massive outcry against them, while giving Nintendo and Microsoft an opening to slap them silly and eat up their marketshare.

Games Workshop would do well to heed their greatest competition for income's lessons lest they fall into the same trap.

I am sure Privateer and Wizkids will laugh all the way to the bank, and so will every other minis company who can manage to avoid being like Games Workshop.

Jedi152
06-07-2006, 08:59
GW pretty much hate everyone on forums. 'Cos we sit and bitch about them all day, see?

Shadowheart
06-07-2006, 09:03
I realise that this is ambitious and may seem far-fetched, but it is not as difficult as it seems.

It seems pretty weak and naive to me, to be honest. You're not actually planning to do much of anything. A bunch of people typing stuff onto the net hardly counts as action. Moreover, GW isn't a government, or even a company that provides an important service. Treating them as if they are will only confirm that many of their customers are hopelessly addicted to their products.
Practically what people should do is be a picky, demanding customer, to keep the company on its toes. Just as one should always do. Expect good quality, service, all round value for money. Look for the best deal, and be prepared to take your business elsewhere.
Or alternatively, if you feel that changing the way the company works is the way to make a better world, take up a job with them and work your way up. Or buy lots and lots of stock. Or both. Heck, build up a corporate empire and buy out the whole company to do with as you please. See, that would be ambitious and far-fetched.

I complain about GW as much as anyone, I've also got my wishful thoughts about how they could improve. But I don't expect that to change anything, I just want to vent frustration now and again. I certainly don't expect GW to do as the customers tell them to. Listening to complaints is one thing, but letting the customer decide how to run things is a sure way to bankrupcy. Although that works both ways. Doing what GW says is also to be avoided as a customer. You've got to make up your own mind about whether or not to buy that plastic Giant.

Jedi152
06-07-2006, 09:06
And a right bunch of bastards they are for hating us, aren't they?
Yeah. I hate them for hating us ... for hating them for hating us ... ... Oh.

:D

PierceC
06-07-2006, 09:43
It seems pretty weak and naive to me, to be honest. You're not actually planning to do much of anything.


I have to get behind Shadowheart here 100%. This is a multi-national company (while I can't see very many parallels to Microsoft beside that) who ultimately only have 2 core markets to appeal to: Themselves and their shareholders. Obviously if sales slump, then they will take action to keep themselves afloat, but how they do that is completely independent of what you "hardcore gamers" want. They are selling to a "core gamer", whatever that might be, although as echoed here it is usually a boy between the ages of 8-16. You may not be able to harness this "core gamer" to influence GW, but you can quite easily influence every decision GW makes and their strategic long-term focus by becoming and organising shareholders. This is the only realistic way of ever having "your voice heard".

There is a post somewhere in here of people monthly GW spending. I have NEVER seen anyone post any purchases of shares in GW. If you aren't willing to INVEST in the long term success of the company, why should they listen to you? Shareholders have voices, because they have put a real financial stake in the company. End Consumers don't have a voice because if you lose one, they can always be replaced. I am sure loads of people have left the game, but I don't see GW shuting down.

I have also seen people suggest going to the GW annual meeting. I think this is one of the best things you can do, I wouldn't be surprised if you got some free gear as well, cause that what happens at most companies AGM's. They treat shareholders like royalty. Feel like GW kicking the crap out of you, why not "get your own back" and ask the real tough question to the people in charge?

I will give you two great examples of regular people who have influenced decisions of massive companies:
1. Manchester United - They have recently gone from a public to a private company, however groups of normal people threatened to de-rail the whole deal cause they voted against the move. Manchester United, the WOLRDS 2nd largest football team and possibly the best known sports franchise actually had to consider the voice of opposition of normal 9-5 people like you and me because they were shareholders!

2. GM merger with Nissan - Hmmm??? American car manufacturer merger with a Japanese car manufacturer??? What's going on there? Well the normal old shareholders, many of whom worked at the plants (and 1 billionare who own 20% of the share in the company) are angry that stocks are falling. So what does GM do? They do something no one would ever think they would do, setup a merger with "Them in the East". Once again, normal shareholders calling for blood get real action!

A lot of people have been commenting on the way GW stocks are falling and how terrible it is. This couldn't be further from the truth. I someone really wants to make a difference I would suggest they setup "Warseer LLC" a limited liability company with the express interest of buying cheap GW stocks. This is the perfect time to buy, casual investors will be shedding their stock, and I doubt GW has the money to buy them back. With 50 people contributing £100, you might actually own 3-5% of GW. In a few years you could actually own 20-30% and you could veto nearly every action GW if you don't like it. I will go so far as saying this, I don't have much experience setting up an LLC, but if someone does, you have your first £100 of capital.

buzzin_yoof
06-07-2006, 10:10
With 50 people contributing £100, you might actually own 3-5% of GW. In a few years you could actually own 20-30% and you could veto nearly every action GW if you don't like it.

This is certainly a way to have your voice heard - just a couple of problems.
1) You are valuing the company at around £1M. GW is clearly worth more as a business just in terms of property assests let alone its value as a trading company. You will need much more than £5000 to own 5% of their shares.

2) Even if you could make a big difference with £5000 you are trying to get it from (mainly) 17 year old forum users. Yes, there are some older people who give very valuable contributions to the forums but these are the minority. Most forum users are younger and so don't have the money or are all talk and won't put their money where their mouths are.

Archaon
06-07-2006, 10:47
What I don't understand is how other companies with MUCH greater populations of customers will listen to said customers, yet GW not only ignores us Net folk, but outright insults us.


It is because other companies may have adults as customers who really vote with their wallet.

Take food or cars.. if a certain product doesn't meet their expectations anymore they actively look for other companies and there are other companies.
While people may be "fans" of these products (especially noticeable with car companies) they will only accept so much before they move on.

GW has kids mostly as customers and they are looking for the quick dollar.. squeeze as much out while they are still fresh and juicy and before they become bitter veterans on some internet message board.

We here mean little to GW.. as is widely known GW doesn't hold message boards in high regard because the atmosphere is so poisoned. If an official GW member with a higher position (say a brand manager) and would like a discussion about GW chances are high that within 5 minutes some dumb **** would start rambling and insulting.

It's also not like they won't listen at all.. the Dark Elf revision was done with a sensible and dedicated player group and Gav Thorpe who was convinced by arguments and not bashing.

As it stands.. GW doesn't seem to care much about the bitching and whining of what they may regard as kids but who will still buy their products.

Problem however is that they may have reached the end of the ladder.. the US business is in deep trouble and the rest of the world doesn't look bright either.

Kriegsherr
06-07-2006, 14:34
Its true, in ORGANISED Wargaming most players are over 16 or even 20 years old, and most groups and clubs I've seen until now had only member 16 and up, and most were over 20.

Now they major part of the GW customer base is not organised in any form and only plays the game with their friends / family. So clubs only form a minor part of all GW customers. Now I don't know anymore if there were some statistcal stuff out there proving that a major part of GW customers were below 20 in the past, but there was one showing that the average GW customer stays in the hobby for 18 months (could be less). by applying common marketing sense unto the GW case, you can see why GW is in fact aiming for the Kids and not really for the fans.
A newb has to buy whole armies, all the books and is more likely to even buy the horribly overpriced hobby stuff like trees and such than a longtimer.
So a newb attracted to the hobby for some months is more important for GW than a longtimer who is still into GW Stuff after 12 years simply because the longtimer is less likely to buy whole armies. Most of us do buy the newest army out, but GW can't COUNT on it, while they know what average amount of money they can get out of a newbie.
And there is an important difference between Kids and Grown ups. In average, the grown up will buy more rational than the kid. And nowadays the budget kids can spend on toys is almost as high as a single, employed grown up.

So: We have a company who is aiming for the Kids (okay, to be more precise: 10-16 years... sorry younger warseer members, no offense meant), and is aiming to get new customers, while seeing the "keeping in the hobby" part as a less important issue.
This main business targets could now explain why so few people at GW are still interested in their customers opinion.
The second reason is the marketing and market researcj department... marketing departments are really evil, they hone statistics over customer feedback, future analysis over present problems. As soon as a company is driven by its marketing research, strange things start to happen. Like Lotr :)

buzzin_yoof
06-07-2006, 14:54
As soon as a company is driven by its marketing research, strange things start to happen. Like Lotr :)

That would be the LOTR which until recently still outsold space marines, doubled the company value for a time and led to multi - million pound profits.

Even if it is not as popular now it is still an important product to GW hence their continued support of the game.

All companies rely on their market research, both through surveys, customer profiling and analysing sales. You at the moment could be as loyal to GW as anyone - they don't care that you are moaning - you are still buying the stuff.

Kriegsherr
06-07-2006, 15:14
If GW were interested in oppinion of their customers, or any "community" of their customers, they would have set one up on their own boards, or around their web page in general. They did not, and seem to use their boards as another marketing tool. Until they want to listen, it is futile to try to communicate with them in other way then by buying or not buying their miniatures. That's only way of communication they seem interested in.


On small little thing here. It's like in politics. If you want to be heard, you have to stand up and shout at the government, not wait till they come to you and ask you if you have any proposals on how to make the world better.

It's absolutely clear, that no company board can serve as a tool for communication, suggestions or critic. This has to be done by a third party board not financed and not controlled by GW, and any paper sent to GW should be short, easy to understand and to the point. GW don't wants to spend any manhour on compiling the vast user feedback they will get, wheter they like it or not, but in an organised form it might have a bigger chance of beeing heard.

Company websites have only one purpose: Selling even more stuff, and doing marketing things to sell more stuff again. The GW pages only promote the hobby because its a part of GW that also sells stuff, and thats maybe the reason why the whole chapter approved stuff is so scarce on the page. this and because GW wants to even make money with FAQs and Houserules by making chapter approved books.

So, If we want to get heard, we have to do something to make it as easy as possible for GW to react to our porposals.

Kriegsherr
06-07-2006, 15:33
That would be the LOTR which until recently still outsold space marines, doubled the company value for a time and led to multi - million pound profits.

Even if it is not as popular now it is still an important product to GW hence their continued support of the game.

All companies rely on their market research, both through surveys, customer profiling and analysing sales. You at the moment could be as loyal to GW as anyone - they don't care that you are moaning - you are still buying the stuff.

I've heard other stories. And from what i've seen, it hasn't be too popular were I live. In most stores, the shelf spaces for Lotr stuff dropped to almost nothing fairly quickly. And this doesn't happens to wellselling games.
(besides: If the game outsold 40k -> woah. If it outselled SM, it only reached about 50% or so of 40ks value)

Besides, the hype is over, and now the game has to live without the movies. Would be okay if GW could just stop to produce new stuff, but as far as I know they are still bound by their contract with the movie company to produce lotr merchandising. So their coninued support for the game is not entirely free willed.


Yep, all companies do. that doesn't means marketing research is the answer to everything. Sometimes they ask the right question at the right time. But a company listening only to market research starts to forget the real world problems. Maybe it is more the short-term moneymaking thing that does this, but market research plays a big role in it.


On another note, PierceC has brought up a good point. The only with real influence today are investors. By buying shares, you could increase your chances of getting heard. But even then, only the strongest shareholders will ever play a role in a companies politics, so it could be a too costly option.

Sureshot05
06-07-2006, 15:39
What I don't understand is how other companies with MUCH greater populations of customers will listen to said customers, yet GW not only ignores us Net folk, but outright insults us.


I think this is a bit of an over statement, White Dwarf online has become better than the actual paper edition (though you could say thats more due to the decrease in the magazines quality) with content driven articles and interesting conversions.



Nintendo had over 90% of the videogame market in the late eighties. Now its a shadow of its former self, and arrogance is what did it in. It told retailers what it could sell and for how much, it told developers how many games it could make, it told customers what level of technology we were ready for, what kind of content we could have in our games, what kinds of games we could play, and what kind of media we were going to play it on.

*snip*


An interesting set of comparisons, but the difficulty is that Privateer, Warmachine etc do not have the additional market mentioned by Ezkielel of selling to kids on impulse buys etc. Until they have a way of seriously increasing their visibility amongst these markets, I don't see GW having to fear for the moment.

Still interesting thought.

gjnoronh
06-07-2006, 17:10
Just on the buy stock to exercise your voice

here's some interesting links

http://uk.finance.yahoo.com/q?d=v1&p=&q=q&s=gaw&m=L

http://investor.games-workshop.com/investor_relations/default.htm

It's not the hottest stock to buy as an investment - however at the price it's not the worst stock to buy if you want to voice your opinion about management.

Gary

Shadowheart
06-07-2006, 17:33
Countering nonsensical anti-LotR arguements is turning into a routine... let's see...

"Interest in the franchise will drop to nothing any minute now."
That's what people have been saying pretty much from the start. Hype does not equate interest. Star Wars sold all sorts of merchandise for many years between (re-)releases. Tolkien's books are a cornerstone of the Fantasy genre and have enjoyed great popularity for decades. That's all benefits that many games (like the Warhammers) never had at all, and yet those sell.

"GW will be stuck in a limited setting, releasing only alternate Aragorns."
The Warhammer ranges are also limited, in terms of what range can be supported. There's a lot of Eldar releases coming up, but only the Autarch and the promotional Bonesinger are new additions, and not particularly revolutionary ones at that. I think GW will run out of shelf space before it runs out of things to do in Middle-Earth. And just how many different Space Marine Captain models have they done so far?

"LotR took away resources and can thus be blamed for GW's shortcomings on other areas."
No proof for or against that one that I know of. We'd have to know what GW would have done without LotR to say what difference it has made. Even then, this arguement works on the assumption that the resources in question belonged by some sort of rights to the Warhammer games. Prepostrous idea you ask me, and looking at all the stuff released for the Warhammers in the last years I can't imagine LotR has hurt them much.

"I don't like the game, my friends don't like the game, nobody likes the game."
What some people apparently fail to appreciate is that they live in a much bigger world. There's not a lot of overlap between the Warhammer and LotR game fanbases, because they're so different in every aspect. That doesn't mean that LotR has no fans, or that those fans don't count. People with anti-LotR sentiments have just been talking amongst themselves, only agreeing and being agreed with, and that has led to wrong assumptions. Go to the Last Alliance (http://www.thelastalliance.com/) or the Palantir (http://www.thepalantir.org/) and convince them that nobody likes the game.

"They just released a miniature of Gandalf on a cart, see, they're desperately scraping the bottom of the barrel."
Again, that's been said from the start. It's entirely in the eye of the beholder. What I see is a line so popular that it even the obscure models sell enough to run a profit. And GW have got a lot of pretty obvious stuff still to do, nevermind heaps of obscure variants. Moreover, not all of their customers treat miniatures merely as playing counters. LotR has a lot of collectors/painters with a particular interest in display pieces.

Let's see, have I forgotten any... oh yes, the GW/New Line contract that everyone and their dog has read. The contract that will bring ruin to all. I'll believe claims about that one from people who've actually seen it. Some of the stuff that contract supposedly enforced doesn't even make sense, like the claim that it forced GW to do LotR in 25mm historical because that'd make it incompatible with Warhammer. Nevermind that it's the right scale to do it in, that was clearly a malicious move by New Line.


On small little thing here. It's like in politics.

Because we're a nation, GW the government and Kirby our president? Who's in charge of agriculture?

asmodai_dark86
06-07-2006, 18:04
I have to disagree I think people online and people offline are evenly spread - its just that theres at least a 100 communities around that are spead out. Some are well known (dakka, warseer, warhammer online) but others tend to keep to themselves and there lies the problem.

If you want to mobilise the GW community into getting something, you need to go about it the same way farscape fans and firefly fans did. Set up an independant, decent website, get other websites (warseer, dakka etc) to support it, and watch it grow. If it does then that support can be molded into a single action - petitions are good, everyone leaving gamesday early would be better (imagine arriving at games day at 3pm to find a half empty building..). The bigger your community, the stronger you are and sure your not going to cause vast changes, but even GW are going to think about it if theres a large enough community shouting.

If not, then at least we tried, and to be honest if someone new came to the hobby and saw a forum like that there likely to join to save them money, whilst the veterans will join because they want to buy more models. Lowering prices, in my opinion, will increase sales, not decrease them.

GamesmasterZ
06-07-2006, 18:17
Alright, I've read many a thing in this thread with people saying we should send in a mass complaint(That will most likely get tossed aside as junk). That won't accomplish anything. Everyone knows that, they just want to feel like they're doing something while still buying the stuff they complain about from GW. Which, that's the key. Most people that complain(98%) are still buying GW stuff. Stop. Just stop. If you'd stop, they would realize that they need to do something to keep people's interest. I.E. lowering their prices or actually making stuff worth buying.

Now, I'm not just saying you should stop buying stuff for a day. Don't buy anything for as long as it takes. If it takes three months, then don't buy anything for three months. It's really easy.

Spread the word that you're boycotting and not buying GW stuff. Tell people that you should have to pay $50 for five plastic Terminators. If this works, then we might get those PLASTIC Terminator for $5 a piece, $25 for five would definitely suit me.

So...instead of writing pointless E-mails that no one will read. Don't buy the stuff. It's easy to do...

Andrew-

Jim30
06-07-2006, 18:20
Read the "ask tom" section - in particular the comment on pricing policy

Games Workshop Pricing Policy


Greetings, I am a relatively new investor to the GW hobby. Obviously, it does quite
well. I am wondering about the pricing though. I have been to the GW stores, and the pricing seems quite high. Are there plans to raise or lower these prices in the future? I understand that the fan base is the lifeblood of this operation, but this base must not be alienated.

If prices are too high, I fear that many people will become alienated and quit the hobby, and many people will not even join it. Particularly younger children whose parents no doubt fund their Warhammer purchases, considering adult logic i.e.:" All this money for this little piece of metal". Good pricing is necessary for a new fan base.

However, lowering prices too much could very well cause the undesired effects of losing money, despite higher levels of customer happiness. I would not recommend raising the prices much more, the gamers must have faith in Games workshop's commitment to them.

Tell me, what sort of financial overhead does GW have? Are the prices high
due to massive overhead costs? Or just to ensure good profits?
S.A. Ratzloff


You are right to say that if prices are too high people will be alienated. The fact that we have been recruiting new Hobbyists over many, many years, that we are seeing excellent growth around the world with good retention of hobbyists is pretty conclusive proof that they are not. Making miniatures is not a simple process and so our R&D costs are high - you’ll see plenty of detail on this in our financial report (on this web site). Also, our miniatures are the best in the world and we believe in charging premium prices for our premium products and services.

What we are selling is a hobby – not toys and not a pass-time. Committed gamers and collectors and modellers know they get wonderful value for money from Games Workshop products. Far better value, I suggest, than from similar amounts of money spent on meals out, sports events, boozy nights in the pub. Go to the cinema and you can have an hour and a half of fun. Buy Warhammer and you can enjoy it for the rest of your life! Tom

Wolf Scout Ewan
06-07-2006, 19:10
The only way we ae going to change GW for the better is by every single hobbyist buying a few shares, then getting together to replace the upper management of GW.

Personally I would spend every penny I have to get rid of Kirby.

Osbad
07-07-2006, 09:00
... good retention of hobbyists ... our miniatures are the best in the world and we believe in charging premium prices for our premium products and services.

What we are selling is a hobby – not toys and not a pass-time. Committed gamers and collectors and modellers know they get wonderful value for money from Games Workshop products. Far better value, I suggest, than from similar amounts of money spent on meals out, sports events, boozy nights in the pub. Go to the cinema and you can have an hour and a half of fun. Buy Warhammer and you can enjoy it for the rest of your life!

Everytime I read this I just want to get to my feet and shout "What a hypocritical pile of old poo!"

Seriously!

"Buy Warhammer and know that you've paid through the nose for a busted set of rules, for fug-lay old-fashioned-looking models, and for enjoying the services of a company that after you've played the "Hobby" for a couple of years no longer cares about your opinion..." Now *that* may be slightly nearer the truth?

Jedi152
07-07-2006, 09:09
Wow. All that cash and they still can't employ someone who can spell 'pastime'.

Sai-Lauren
07-07-2006, 09:41
Big Companies tend to loose touch with their customers, they are just not able anymore (or at least think so) to pay the manpower for getting feedback and reading it. The more customers you have, the more feedback.
Yes they do, it's called Marketing, Customer Relations and Product Management.

I think some of the problem is that there's to many voices for GW to try and satisfy - internally, there's the developers own pet projects, ideas and wouldn't it be great if's, there's decisions from management that need to be put into place, and so on.
Externally, there's dischordant voices from places like here, Dakka, B&C and so on (and let's gloss over the morass that is the GW Message boards - a quote from Obi-Wan Kenobi about Mos Eisley spaceport springs to mind :eek: ) - for everyone saying improvement "A" needs to be made, there's someone else trying to get improvements "B", "C", etc done, plus another 100 who are just spouting rubbish because they've got a platform and think if they shout loudly enough, it compensates for having nothing to say.

I also think things like the "Squat Question" did some damage, developers simply got fed up with it and it's ilk, so stopped listening - although I would also say some of the damage was self-inflicted, after all, it took until about a year ago for Jervis to finally come out with the full reasoning, and surely if someone had said late in 2nd edition "we've got no real ideas ourselves, and we're now moving onto other projects, but we'll accept submissions about them under our normal terms for such things, and see what comes of them" - even if all they planned to do was use the unopened submissions for hamster bedding - it would have deflected a lot of the issue.

But the pure arrogance of the "They're dead, get over it" / "Maybe you're in the wrong hobby" approach irritated a lot of people.


What we are selling is a hobby – not toys and not a pass-time
Ignoring the bad spelling (and from the CEO himself it would appear :rolleyes: ), just what does he think a hobby is?



Main Entry: hobby
Part of Speech: noun
Definition: pastime
Synonyms: amusement, art, avocation, bag, craft, craze, distraction, diversion, divertisement, fad, fancy, favorite occupation, fun, game, interest, kick, leisure activity, leisure pursuit, obsession, occupation, pet topic, play, quest, relaxation, schtick, shot, sideline, specialty, sport, thin, vagary, weakness, whim, whimsy


;)

gjnoronh
07-07-2006, 13:07
Everytime I read this I just want to get to my feet and shout "What a hypocritical pile of old poo!"

Seriously!

"Buy Warhammer and know that you've paid through the nose for a busted set of rules, for fug-lay old-fashioned-looking models, and for enjoying the services of a company that after you've played the "Hobby" for a couple of years no longer cares about your opinion..." Now *that* may be slightly nearer the truth?

Could be for you as noted warseer members who choose to vote in such polls are split 50/50 amongst satisfied/disatisfied.

Having played something in the range of a dozen different miniature systems over the last 20 or so years I have to say I like GW - A lot. But really that's a separate thread.

Point by point I disagree with every one of your points but it's off topic and we're not going to in any case come to consensus.

I'll just ask you do really think any of these companies who are in the business of separating you from your money in exchange for tiny pieces of pewter "care about your opinion" except in as far as it further meets the company's needs of getting you to open your wallet and put more money in their hands?

If GW is as greedy and corporate as so many of us are suggesting they are more likely to be paying attention to the customer - because presumably it allows them to sell us more toys and put more money in their wallets. I have no faith in the "kindness" of any corporations heart, but I'm sure if a company can figure out a way to sell more of it's product they are going to be doing their best to do so.

Gary

The Winslow
08-07-2006, 05:03
we've got no real ideas ourselves, and we're now moving onto other projects, but we'll accept submissions about them under our normal terms for such things, and see what comes of them" -

Actually, that's pretty much excactly what I was told when they went away, and I asked the question.

Of course, I then heard the question asked about in every single Q and A, at every tradeshow, retailer seminar, games day, etc, for the next 5 years. I started dreading the subject coming up, as the next 10 minutes of arguement was the same every single time, and pretty much could kill a Q and A dead.

PierceC
11-07-2006, 10:11
Just on the buy stock to exercise your voice

here's some interesting links

http://uk.finance.yahoo.com/q?d=v1&p=&q=q&s=gaw&m=L

http://investor.games-workshop.com/investor_relations/default.htm

It's not the hottest stock to buy as an investment - however at the price it's not the worst stock to buy if you want to voice your opinion about management.

Gary

One common misperception about stocks is that when its going down, its not a good time to buy. If you ALREADY own the stock, its not a good time to buy; Buy and hold is your best strategy. The question you have to ask yourself is if there is another fantasy/sci-fi movie that GW may piggy back off. The fact that the shares are sliding, if you don't own already, this is the best time to buy. Plus, at the very least, you will get dividends back on all the stock you hold.

gjnoronh
11-07-2006, 14:20
Pierce I agree with you in principle just not in detail - the question is the stock going to drop further and would it be better to buy when it's hit it's low - both to get more bang for your buck and to avoid losing stock value if it drops after your purchase. I agree the long term thing is to buy and hold and get your dividend.

Gary

cailus
11-07-2006, 23:28
You actually should try to buy when there's a market downturn and then you should buy a decent company that's been caught in the slipstream of the downturn and not one with a declining sales and profitability.

I remember when I was a junior stockbroker and my boss told me to flog off (i.e. sell) an insurance company called AMP even though they kept on coming up with bad news. But our research still had it as a Buy, so we shoved it down our clients' throats and they lost a lot of money.

By the time I had given up stockbroking the price had dropped to below $5.00 even though many of our clients brought it at $15.00-$16.00. In 2003 the company then effectively split up into it's semi-profitable Australian and its floundering UK operations, then known as HHG. AMP was last trading at about $9.60.

So the moral of the story is that Games Workshop does not appear to be a good investment due to declining profitability andf declining sales (the two may not be mutually inclusive). However a more in-depth analysis is required in order to get a more clear picture of whether GAW is a buy or a sell or a hold. And this is why we need the end of year figures!

asmodai_dark86
12-07-2006, 02:47
EDIT: I've removed this posting because its a bad idea, doesnt reflect well on warseer, and shouldnt be done.

buzzin_yoof
12-07-2006, 09:04
Now suppose, just suppose, we were to all phone mail order on one day.... Could GW mail order be shut down by the weight of phone calls?

...

To be honest if they've got a union there likely to call a strike if it happens twice.

This is probably the most retarded idea I have ever seen on the net (WOW!). There are so many reasons that this is a mindless waste of time. I especially like your suggestion that people in what is effectively a call centre will strike because they are answering lots of phone calls. Please give me a minute while I stitch up my sides - they have split from laughing.

There are some good ideas on this thread about how to talk to GW. I don't agree that GW needs talking to but that does not make peoples suggestions any less worthwhile. This however is a poo idea.

captain_bas
12-07-2006, 09:17
This is probably the most retarded idea I have ever seen on the net (WOW!)

Hes right. You won't 'shut down' GW mail order through weight of calls. All you'll do is stop genuine hobbyists (people like me) who have genuine queries from getting through to GW.

Dumb idea that suggests youre less interested in getting a result that making life difficult for people.

CB.

thommo
12-07-2006, 11:19
i haven't seen V for Vendetta yet...but when i do, i hope it turns me into a rebellious militant with dreams of corporate destruction!!! I will turn my attentions to Marks and Spencers for being too posh!

i don't think the mail order assault will work!

Brimstone
12-07-2006, 11:47
So what do you all think? Good idea. illegal idea (potentially...).

I think that if you try and use Warseer to organise this we will shut you down very quickly.

Any further discussions along these lines will result in the closure/removal of this thread.

The Warseer Inquisition

Grimshawl
12-07-2006, 19:11
I gotta agree with most here in saying that is a stupid idea that wont bring the desired result. unfortunately GW is gonna do whatever they feel like even if it drives quite a few of its customers away. they dont take any imput other than that which is positive and have several times expressed that they could care less what many of us as customers want. Oh well at this point theres not much to be done but wait and see if the current downward spiral of profits wakes them up or not. I'm just refusing to funnel money to them in the hopes that eventually like minded hobbiests will make a dent in GWs uncaring atitude.

asmodai_dark86
12-07-2006, 20:59
Im extremely sorry Brim, I wasnt intending to do it just as an idea/wondered if it had been done in the past kinda thing.

I wouldnt want GW coming down on warseer, or warseer getting shut down because of an action thats likely to cause GW to shrug and not really care - no hard feelings brim?

EDIT: I've removed the posting so that no one reading through gets gets as giddy as I did

robertsjf
12-07-2006, 21:38
Just on the buy stock to exercise your voice
Yeah, but how much stock would one have to buy in order to actually have a voice?

Sweet Jesus they had 31,150,349 shares outstanding as of 14 July 2005. Even to rack up 3% that would be 934,510 shares. The stock is quoted at 262.25 pence as of July 12 2006 At 11:35AM ET but that still looks pretty expensive even to someone who would know what a pence was if he was being pelted to death by them.

Tooooon
12-07-2006, 21:41
Im sorry but Games Workshop can't "Shut you down" for doing a peaceful rally or protest gathering against their lack of customer relations, or pricing for example.

Not at all am I suggesting this to any degree whatsoever, im just saying that they can't shut you down for such a thing, and it would be 100% immoral and they wouldnt be successful if they tried.

gjnoronh
12-07-2006, 22:32
Robert you raise a good point

http://www.24carat.co.uk/britishcoinagesystemframe.html

100 pence to each GB pound. A pence is worth about 1.2 US cents. So looks like 1.8 million pounds (2.2 or so million US dollars) to get a 3% share.

www.xe.com for currency conversion.

GW has about 57 million pound yearly sales. So if everyone who buys GW toys puts 1% of their purchases towards buying stock shares we'd have 0.5 million (500K) shares at the end of one year and 2million shares by the end of 4 years. For what it's worth we'd all be getting some dividend (cash back) on those shares during that time.

Another way to look at it it's about 2.6 pounds (3 dollars) to cast 1 "vote" that's the price of some coffees or 2 large sodas in the US, its also about the price of one GW miniature or pot of paint. That may or not be worth it to each of us - to me it's not so expensive I couldn't consider buying shares.


Unlike democracies as a stock holder every time you get a vote you keep it. The total pool of votes is 31 million - which you can compare to the total electoral votes in your home country. In the US 120 million citizens voted in the last presidential election.

My point however is definitely not to give stock advice - but to say complaining on the internet and participating in polls isn't a way to have your say with corporate america. Organize the community and control the company through cash is the way to go. You could just protest and try to financiall injure a company (in the minjiatures context buy off ebay, use proxies etc) but to me there is a cost/risk associated with working to drive a company I like having around out business (having watched multiple mini companies go out of business over the last 20 years taking their games I enjoyed with them . . .)

phantumdude
12-07-2006, 22:37
Now, I am one of the "young GW buyers" that are mentioned on this thread so often so I think I might be able to give a more "intimate" view of kids in this hobby. I first stared this hobby in first grade by the original impulse buy, and didn't really follow this up very often. Now my household is about medium income and I ended up spending about $100 in total for my birthday on the stuff. I had a community readily availible to me but I decided it was too much work and moved on. Now if the average kid (like me, I think) would spend $100+ on a single impulse buy then that is a very high market insentive for gw(I was only 8 when I bought it so I am guessing that the older the more commited, so the more $.) Now that I am more involved in the hobby I ussually spend $30-50 a month on gw so that is a drop of about half to the old impulse me, so you can see why gw takes more time on impulse then on regular hobbiests like you and me.
Sorry for the bad spelling

cailus
13-07-2006, 00:13
Now, I am one of the "young GW buyers" that are mentioned on this thread so often so I think I might be able to give a more "intimate" view of kids in this hobby. I first stared this hobby in first grade by the original impulse buy, and didn't really follow this up very often. Now my household is about medium income and I ended up spending about $100 in total for my birthday on the stuff. I had a community readily availible to me but I decided it was too much work and moved on. Now if the average kid (like me, I think) would spend $100+ on a single impulse buy then that is a very high market insentive for gw(I was only 8 when I bought it so I am guessing that the older the more commited, so the more $.) Now that I am more involved in the hobby I ussually spend $30-50 a month on gw so that is a drop of about half to the old impulse me, so you can see why gw takes more time on impulse then on regular hobbiests like you and me.
Sorry for the bad spelling

Totally of the topic, but where the heck do people get money to allow their kids to spend $100 on an impulse buy? And how come I see more 16-18 year old kids driving hotted up Nissan 350's and WRX's than I do anyone else? And how do they afford $50 bottles of bourbon or cartons of premium beer?

Back when I was a young lad in the 1980's, an impulse buy was a $0.50 chocolate bar. A $10.00 GI Joe was a planned purchase. And by the time I was an older teenager in the mid-to-late 1990's we still couldn't afford anything but the most cheap casked wine ($10 for 4 litres of cheap chuck). Back in those days a $250 1970's vintage Datsun 120Y was the epitome of car ownership.

Heck even today I can't afford a sports car and I still drink cheap beer. And I'm a bloody accountant on $50,000 a year and moved back in with the parents so that I would save money.*

I just don't get it...

*All prices are in Australian dollars

asmodai_dark86
13-07-2006, 00:47
I've just noticed that an impulse buy in the states and over here has the same number, just in a different currency (100 dollars impulse buy is what? 60 quid - thats a battleforce and a blister or two)

Unseeing Eye
13-07-2006, 01:53
Back when I was a young lad in the 1980's, an impulse buy was a $0.50 chocolate bar. A $10.00 GI Joe was a planned purchase. And by the time I was an older teenager in the mid-to-late 1990's we still couldn't afford anything but the most cheap casked wine ($10 for 4 litres of cheap chuck). Back in those days a $250 1970's vintage Datsun 120Y was the epitome of car ownership.

Back in my day we had to walk 15 miles in the snow, and you could get a boiled sweet for a ha'penny! :p

Sorry, you were just really conforming to stereotypes there; not attacking you or the validity of your message.

cailus
13-07-2006, 02:17
It's cool. I am only 26 but already feel too old!

buzzin_yoof
13-07-2006, 09:04
Back in my day we had to walk 15 miles in the snow, and you could get a boiled sweet for a ha'penny! :p



[Yorkshire accent]
Luxury! When I were a lad I had t' work 26 hours a day down t'pit just to earn me bus fair home!
[/Yorkshire accent]



I am sure that GW never publicly stated that they don't care about their customers opinions. That makes no business sense. They may have said that a few whiners on the internet who buy their products anyway are not a big factor in their planning and marketing.

To be honest the only moaning I hear about GW is a small minority of the internet forum users. Most people, as you would expect with a hobby that is meant to be FUN, are happy with the hobby and GW. I personally think it is great value. What I pay for a model takes me time to convert, paint and then play with (as many times as I want, for no extra cost). I can go to GW stores where they give me free painting and modelling lessons, free tournaments and campaigns, etc.

Here is my message for the GW haters

The best thing the GW haters could do is go find another hobby, or at least another games system/company. Seriously, do you have any fun between the habitual moaning:confused: All you do from my perspective is put a downer on my hobby, and I'm sure a lot of other people feel the same way.

So please try to enjoy your hobby and stop moaning about it. If you dislike the pricing/policies/rules/etc that much then please go and take up knitting or some other hobby that will not upset you so much.



P.S. No offence to any knitters out there - fine pastime ;)

cailus
13-07-2006, 23:51
I am sure that GW never publicly stated that they don't care about their customers opinions. That makes no business sense. They may have said that a few whiners on the internet who buy their products anyway are not a big factor in their planning and marketing.

To be honest the only moaning I hear about GW is a small minority of the internet forum users. Most people, as you would expect with a hobby that is meant to be FUN, are happy with the hobby and GW. I personally think it is great value. What I pay for a model takes me time to convert, paint and then play with (as many times as I want, for no extra cost). I can go to GW stores where they give me free painting and modelling lessons, free tournaments and campaigns, etc.

Here is my message for the GW haters
The best thing the GW haters could do is go find another hobby, or at least another games system/company. Seriously, do you have any fun between the habitual moaning:confused: All you do from my perspective is put a downer on my hobby, and I'm sure a lot of other people feel the same way.

So please try to enjoy your hobby and stop moaning about it. If you dislike the pricing/policies/rules/etc that much then please go and take up knitting or some other hobby that will not upset you so much.


The reason why people bitch and complain is because they want an improvement in the level of service from GW. They do it because they love the hobby.

I absolutely love WH40K and am also partial to Mrodheim. But I think the company is a bunch of tools who don't care about their veteran customers. I always use a musical analogy - Slayer write garbage nowadays and Kerry King (one of their guitarists) is an absolute bastard. But that doesn't mean I don't like early Slayer material).

Oh and if you don't like criticism, well this is a democracy and we spew whatever we want. You have a right to tell us GW haters to sod off and we have a right to complain.

Perhaps I could say if you don't like complaining, then don't frequent these boards?




P.S. No offence to any knitters out there - fine pastime ;)

None taken.

Crazy Harborc
14-07-2006, 01:12
Wha' cailus just said.

GW gives those of us who want an improved GW(the company) plenty to gripe about. Us(GW haters???) complaining gives the "GW is perfect fanatics," something to gripe about.;)