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WarsmithGarathor94
30-07-2015, 11:31
Just got a quick rules query
All of the daemon warscrolls say all chaos wizards know the summon said daemon spell
So am.i understanding this right
My herald of tzeench can potentially summon a great unclean one turn 1 :o

Necronartum
30-07-2015, 11:43
You are correct.

Although, as far as I know, you use Warscrolls based on the units you have deployed on the table.

As such, units you can summon are limited to units that are currently in play.

WarsmithGarathor94
30-07-2015, 11:52
You are correct.

Although, as far as I know, you use Warscrolls based on the units you have deployed on the table.

As such, units you can summon are limited to units that are currently in play.

Drats lol
Another rules question
Lets say my herald casts mystic shield and rolls a 9+ fortune and fate then says he can cast another spell but it has to be a different one. So if on the 2nd spell he rolls another 9+ does his ability trigger again?

Necronartum
30-07-2015, 12:37
Drats lol
Another rules question
Lets say my herald casts mystic shield and rolls a 9+ fortune and fate then says he can cast another spell but it has to be a different one. So if on the 2nd spell he rolls another 9+ does his ability trigger again?

I would say not.

The rule specifically states that he may make one more casting attempt this hero phase. As such. Two would be the maximum.

SanDiegoSurrealist
30-07-2015, 12:59
As such, units you can summon are limited to units that are currently in play.

Not true, you can summon anything you have a model for.
Otherwise you can only summon Fateweaver it you Fateweaver on the board, does not make any sense.

Necronartum
30-07-2015, 13:04
I stand corrected. After a re-read, it would indeed seem you can use any scroll you have the model for (and intend to use).

Charistoph
30-07-2015, 20:23
Not true, you can summon anything you have a model for.
Otherwise you can only summon Fateweaver it you Fateweaver on the board, does not make any sense.

Keep in mind, though, that local army building standards may restrict this as well.

Also keep in mind that there are no Uniques out of the Fantasy Warscroll list, so two Fateweavers or Nagash on the board is basicly legal (but a good way to lose future games).

splash
03-08-2015, 15:20
Just got a quick rules query
All of the daemon warscrolls say all chaos wizards know the summon said daemon spell
So am.i understanding this right
My herald of tzeench can potentially summon a great unclean one turn 1 :o

As long as you take a warscroll that has the summon great unclean one spell so the herald gains access to the spell (which means taking at least one great unclean one in the first place). Other than that, summon away and have fun with it!

splash
03-08-2015, 15:24
Not true, you can summon anything you have a model for.

As long as you have taken the warscroll with the summon spell on it.


Otherwise you can only summon Fateweaver it you Fateweaver on the board, does not make any sense.

Yes it does. That model has the summon fateweaver spell. Thus, it can use it to summon a fateweaver.

Honestly, if anyone thinks that they can use spells from other warscrolls without actually taking them, then why not just start using special abilities from ANY other warscroll, and not just your favorite summon spells? Hell, why even take the wizard in the first place to cast the summon spell? Just keep him in your case. In fact, why even set up any miniatures at all? Just wait until the first hero phase, roll a die, and start placing models.

Do some critical thinking, people.

Charistoph
03-08-2015, 16:10
As long as you have taken the warscroll with the summon spell on it.

Show the restrictions on taking Warscrolls for your army.


Do some critical thinking, people.

Indeed you do.

You are adding rules to the basic formula. While this is fine if you discuss it with your opponent or organizing a tournament, at least recognize it as such.

Poncho160
04-08-2015, 17:13
This is an ongoing troublesome issue. Big thread on it somewhere else fantasy forums. The rules do not say either way what is right, It is just one of them things that you will have to decide amongst your gaming circles. Or spend ten minutes before a pick up game deciding with your oppenent.

theunwantedbeing
04-08-2015, 17:43
Just got a quick rules query
All of the daemon warscrolls say all chaos wizards know the summon said daemon spell
So am.i understanding this right
My herald of tzeench can potentially summon a great unclean one turn 1 :o

Provided you have a Great Unclean One on the table, yes.
Otherwise the warscroll isn't in play to give you the ability in the first place.


Another rules question
Lets say my herald casts mystic shield and rolls a 9+ fortune and fate then says he can cast another spell but it has to be a different one. So if on the 2nd spell he rolls another 9+ does his ability trigger again?
Yes, as it doesn't say it only works once or that it provides a second spell...it's simply an "extra spell attempt".

Charistoph
04-08-2015, 18:49
Provided you have a Great Unclean One on the table, yes.
Otherwise the warscroll isn't in play to give you the ability in the first place.

This is not in the standard rules.

theunwantedbeing
04-08-2015, 19:05
This is not in the standard rules.

As far as the rules go, it's considered an ability of the model.
So the model has to be in play for it to have any effect.

Charistoph
04-08-2015, 20:38
As far as the rules go, it's considered an ability of the model.
So the model has to be in play for it to have any effect.

No, it is Magic, not an Ability. And where do the rules state that a model has to be in play for their Warscroll to have an affect when the Magic is granting another power?

Nicreap
04-08-2015, 20:55
As far as the rules go, it's considered an ability of the model.
So the model has to be in play for it to have any effect.

I completely disagree with you, the rule provides you with the requirements for that spell, so instead of havign 30 spells on every death wizard it is parceled out to the relevant units. There is nothing in the rules to suggest that the rules of warscrolls are only in effect while the unit is on the table, in fact, if you read through the warscrolls, it is very abundant it is the exact opposite warscrolls are assumed to always be in effect. Mailsteen over on Khemri summarized this very well.

"The dragon ogre spell specifies what a wizard needs in order to have access to it: it needs to be from your army, and within 20" of the dragon ogres (which requires them to be on the table).
the summon skeleton spell also specifies what a wizard needs in order to cast it: to be a Death Wizard. This does not require skeletons to be on the table, as a model with the Death and Wizard keywords has those keywords regardless.

Sylvaneth wizards only know regrowth while there are treekin on the battlefield. The treekin warscroll specifies as such. It doesn't matter whether it's a summoning spell or not, there'd be no point in specifying otherwise.

Reference also King Louen in the bret scrolls:




QUOTE


Regal Crown: As long as Louen Leoncoeur
is on the battlefield, he and all Free
People units from your army do not have
to take battleshock tests.



Note that it specifies the ability is only in effect while he's on the battlefield. If warscrolls were only relevant while units were physically present it wouldn't need to do that.
There are no abilities in the game that I have seen, and I've spent the last 40 minutes scanning warscrolls for them, that are written to assume that warscrolls only exist while the unit is physically present. Other than summoning, every single ability goes out of its way to specify that it's only in effect while the unit is on the battlefield, or is a command ability (which can only be used by models on the battlefield), or has a specific range. Summoning is the only place in the game where you would posit that the designers meant us to make this leap, and it is a leap that leads us to ridiculous conclusions. Again, if you can only summon units that are already on the table, then that would mean there are several lizardmen spells that exist solely to make duplicates of unique individuals."

Thommy H
04-08-2015, 21:09
I think you can summon anything you have models for. I also think you can deploy those same models on the table at the start of the game too. This is where Age of Sigmar's paradigm shift is really causing problems: you don't pick an army, you just show up with "your collection" (however you define that). If fifteen Kairos Fateweavers are in your collection, then you can indeed summon fifteen of them during the course of the battle...or just deploy them and not bother with trying to cast the spells required to do so...

Basically, most people seem to be approaching this from an 8th Edition perspective: you bring your army, that army can summon extra stuff which is accounted for in the points of the unit that summons it. In Age of Sigmar, you bring what you want. So, if you're using a balancing mechanism besides alternate deployment and sudden death victory conditions, you need to include every unit you have available in your count, not just the ones you deploy.

In AoS, the models on your shelf are as much a part of the army as the ones in your deployment zone.

Poncho160
04-08-2015, 21:21
There is no rule that states, "You must include a unit in your army to have acces to the special rules contained in the units Warscroll or if you wish to summon that unit type."

There is also no rule that states, "You do not have to include a unit in your army to have acces to the special rules contained in the units Warscroll or if you wish to summon that unit type."

There is no answer to this dilemma, because the rules are four pages long.

Tommy H above has got it right though I think.

Charistoph
05-08-2015, 00:01
I think you can summon anything you have models for. I also think you can deploy those same models on the table at the start of the game too. This is where Age of Sigmar's paradigm shift is really causing problems: you don't pick an army, you just show up with "your collection" (however you define that). If fifteen Kairos Fateweavers are in your collection, then you can indeed summon fifteen of them during the course of the battle...or just deploy them and not bother with trying to cast the spells required to do so...

Basically, most people seem to be approaching this from an 8th Edition perspective: you bring your army, that army can summon extra stuff which is accounted for in the points of the unit that summons it. In Age of Sigmar, you bring what you want. So, if you're using a balancing mechanism besides alternate deployment and sudden death victory conditions, you need to include every unit you have available in your count, not just the ones you deploy.

In AoS, the models on your shelf are as much a part of the army as the ones in your deployment zone.

Indeed.

It should be noted that agreements on army builds can make adjustments to this as well, however. The concept of restricting your army to a limited number of warscrolls, for example, should limit your summoning options as well.

wyvirn
05-08-2015, 15:28
So let's look at the inverse; if a war scroll unit gets wiped out, can you still summon them?
For example, a DoC Plaguebearers get wiped out completely. Can a friendly wizard summon more now that there are no PB on the table? IE, do the wizards forget the spell when all of the summonable units die?

Also, the rules just stare 'Chaos Wizards know Summon X spell...' and not 'friendly Chaos Wizards' would this apply to enemy chaos wizards? For example, Litch Priest can summon Hex Wraiths, but only if his opponent brought them on the field?

Between these questions, I feel the answer that makes the most sense is the 'always on' reading of the rules.

Weez
05-08-2015, 21:26
You are correct.

Although, as far as I know, you use Warscrolls based on the units you have deployed on the table.

As such, units you can summon are limited to units that are currently in play.


This depends on who you play with. Several people I play with see it as if you own the warscroll, you can put it down. Other rules for other units explicitdly state that "Can only do "X" while unit is on the table". Summoning doesn't have that disclaimer.

Bede19025
05-08-2015, 22:28
Several people I play with see it as if you own the warscroll, you can put it down. .

What does that mean? Doesn't everyone own every warscroll?

Dwane Diblie
05-08-2015, 22:40
What does that mean? Doesn't everyone own every warscroll?

You have to bring the Warscroll to the table for the models you want to use. But basicaly you are right in that everyone should have all their Warscrolls with them as they come in one bundel. That is everyone except Stormcast Eternals. Theirs are kind of all over the place.

Weez
06-08-2015, 00:24
What does that mean? Doesn't everyone own every warscroll?

Should have probably used a different word.

It means you don't have to start the battle with a unit on the table for you to be able to summon that unit in game. As long as you have the scroll and the miniatures, you can summon away. Unless, in some cases, the rules will explicitly state that "as long as "X" is on the game".

Example: I have a unit of 10 skeleton warriors, but they don't start the game. I can then summon them during game.