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Deadhorse
30-07-2015, 15:33
GW posted top 10 reasons why they like age of sigmar here http://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/blog/blog.jsp?_requestid=326536Check

I think that a good response is needed, summing up what their customers don't like about the age of sigmar. Here are mine:

1. Lack of points: it is difficult to set up a balanced game, even if both players want it.

2. Lack of balance: units summoning other units that summon other units and myriad other rules turn this game into a joke.

3. Shallow gameplay: without mechanics to simulate much actual strategy or tactics, most games quickly become a scrum in the center of the battlefield, and tedious dicerolling ensues. Usually until someone says "OK, let's not play any more but do something fun instead".

4. The writing. They sigmared out of sigmarheim with their sigmapants and sigjackets covered in sigmaradust. I think the last time I saw this type of writing was the Smurfs.

5. Ripping off space marines. All the people who wanted space marines are already buying space marines. Turning everything else into space marines will not increase your sales. And if you must rip off space marines, at least do it well. Because the undead spirits of warriors entombed in armour and destined for eternal war sounds more like necrons than champions of mankind.

6. The names which your lawyers came up with for orcs, elves, dwarves, ogres, goblins are bad. Generally lawyers writing any part of fantasy wargame fluff is bad.

7. The gold idol representing this failure which you've plopped on your lawn.

8. Silly rules for old armies, riding imaginary horses, dancing. We are not amused.

9. The prices. Just no.

10. There was actually a cool game and a cool universe that you destroyed to make room for this drivel.

Theocracity
30-07-2015, 15:56
Good combination of thread title and user name.

Khastarax
30-07-2015, 15:58
11. Because it destroyed the world that 30 years of gamers loved and enjoyed.

Holier Than Thou
30-07-2015, 15:59
1 - It's ****

2 - erm, see number 1

Sothron
30-07-2015, 16:00
11. Because it destroyed the world that 30 years of gamers loved and enjoyed.

This. As one of those gamers from almost the very start, it hurts.

Scribe of Khorne
30-07-2015, 16:07
No Points. Thats really the kicker here, and would be the death knell of 40K as well.

BasetheRuin
30-07-2015, 16:13
11. Because it destroyed the world that 30 years of gamers loved and enjoyed.

Yes. Though I am warming up to Age of Sigmar and the new models, it still hurts seeing the Old World go. There was no need for that.

Me and my mates have been roleplaying in the Old World since the Enemy Within Campaign. Even after 20 years of gaming I still find the Warhammer universe one of the most original and characterful worlds in fantasy gaming. The older fluff of the Empire is especially good. So different from the clean and streamlined D&D or Tolkien stuff. Now Warhammer seems just as sterile, shining and kidfriendly.

Why could they not have kept the old, gritty fluff and just changed the rules, maybe with the occasional Stormcast thrown in?

Now I am sad again. :(

Wesser
30-07-2015, 16:14
1. Pulling support from WFB

2. GW thinking that it was the format, and not retardered marketing and poor support that caused WFB to stagnate

3. Lame Fluff, unfathomable setting and soulless characters killing what little incentive i ever had for AoS

4. Customization utterly killed. A vampire Lord is now a vampire Lord.... They Are now All the same.. Zzzzzzzzzz

Urgat
30-07-2015, 16:14
11. Because it destroyed the world that 30 years of gamers loved and enjoyed.

Seems Marvel is doing the same btw, maybe they're trying to start a trend.

mashkeyboardgetusername
30-07-2015, 16:37
I have to disagree with OP's 10th point. WHFB didn't die to allow AOS to come into being. WHFB died because in the view of the only people in the world with 100% of the sales numbers, it was failing and losing too much money to continue. I'm not sure what was to come next had anything to do with it.

(Also, on the 4th point, it's been a thing for a while, blood angels having blood talons and bloodstrikes missiles for example, or the classic space wolf wolf lord armed with wolf claws, a wolf tooth necklace, a wolf tail talisman, riding a thunderwolf and accompanied by fenrisian wolves.)

MiyamatoMusashi
30-07-2015, 16:43
(Also, on the 4th point, it's been a thing for a while, blood angels having blood talons and bloodstrikes missiles for example, or the classic space wolf wolf lord armed with wolf claws, a wolf tooth necklace, a wolf tail talisman, riding a thunderwolf and accompanied by fenrisian wolves.)

Oh, well, that's completely OK then.

Denny
30-07-2015, 16:54
Good combination of thread title and user name.

+1


Seems Marvel is doing the same btw, maybe they're trying to start a trend.

Secret Wars will be fine. It will be fine. Sure it looks bad now, but it will be fine. Totally fine. I'm fine. Are you fine? It is fine right? Right!?

. . . Course it is. Its fine.

No need to panic . . .

. . . STOP PANICKING!!

Philhelm
30-07-2015, 17:10
4. The Mortal Realms. From the Realm of Fire to the Realm of Heavens and everything in between, the Mortal Realms offer a lifetime of war zones to fight over. The grassy fields of Averland are a thing of the past. Long live the floating islands of the Shimmertarn, the ever-changing Eldritch Fortress and the blood-spewing geysers of the Igneous Delta.

GW is definitely trolling us now.

As for my top ten (in no particular order):

1. No points or other balancing mechanism (this actually is the #1 grievance).
2. Too much high fantasy (I liked the grassy fields of Averland).
3. Measuring from model to model.
4. Too many movement "phases." Move unit up to 3" from enemy (even if base movement would suffice to make contact), charge enemy, pile in - it sucks with larger units in which you must move 50 soldiers three times in one turn.
5. No real tactical maneuvering.
6. The game is released but we have no clue as to which models will remain or how faction aesthetic will change.
7. Stupid changes to race names.
8. The background is no longer derived from a mish-mash of beloved movies, books, etc., and harder to identify with.
9. No character customization.
10. Where are the farmers and people who need to perform vital, mundane tasks?

draccan
30-07-2015, 17:56
Totally agree with OP and totally disgraceful by GW (awful write up)

BasetheRuin
30-07-2015, 18:02
I want my grassy fields back!

Borri
30-07-2015, 18:05
GW is definitely trolling us now.

As for my top ten (in no particular order):

2. Too much high fantasy (I liked the grassy fields of Averland).
10. Where are the farmers and people who need to perform vital, mundane tasks?

These are the two things that drove me from eighth as well. Stupid blood rivers and poison trees everywhere! How do normal people live in such a land? Who makes the armour and feeds the armies? How does anything get done when every 2 minutes your sheep turn into monsters and eat your family? That is the problem with all of this - it is pathetically uncreative, vague, and boring.

My first experience with Warhammer was at a convention in Halifax, NS in like 1985. there was a scenario where each participant took a unit defending a farm from a horde of monsters. There was a feeling of purpose to it all that is vital for any good narrative. That feeling is what I always look for in gaming. It is what Warhammer (and miniatures gaming) mean to me. This? This is just rubbish.

mrknify
30-07-2015, 18:06
On with the games.

What we need is a point template. This can allow units to have points for what they have and can do.

Good luck making it, then testing.

The_Real_Chris
30-07-2015, 18:14
There isn't a top 10. It is just a poor game. I require more to entertained (bloodsports don't cut it either). Everything else is either a subset of that or can be compensated by that (high price point for example - not fussed, I am an employed adult, but I want a good reason to part with the cash).

Deadhorse
30-07-2015, 18:36
10. Where are the farmers and people who need to perform vital, mundane tasks?

Who needs mundane people? Yuck! The denizens simply wear sigmarite armour the duardin warsmiths make in infinite numbers and eat sigmarcheese that drips abundantly from the towers of sigmarheim. There's no need for plumbing as feces instantly turn into nurge daemons which ends in epic, unending battle... but the deamons go back to the warp when slain. Bathing is out of the questions as most rivers are made out of lava or blood, but they wear sigmarsmell tree amulets which alleviate some of the problems. For entertainment, they go fighting chaos. What other mundane people do you need? Accountants? These are the dour stormcast scrollmasters, keeping tabs on the number of chaos minions slain, which should balance with the number of chaos minions spotted.

ShruikhanTK
30-07-2015, 18:57
OP....I shall save my words and just +1 to everything you wrote. I will like to add this though

11. Every future release of a faction shall start by destroying and removing the current line of models from the webstore.

Sephillion
30-07-2015, 18:59
1. They destroyed the world. I never played the actual WFB wargame, but played quite a bit of Warhammer RPG and read a few books. I loved the world. I loved the look of the minis and would have picked that instead of 40K had it been more popular where I live. They destroyed it, and made a bad Planescape meets Thor clone instead.

2. Lack of points. I mostly PUG, and while 90% of the people who play wargames are nice guys, there is always “that guy” and there is just no way to know even with “nice chaps” what’s balanced, except through testing. Also, writing lists is one of my favorite aspect and it’s now literally “pointless”.

3. Poor mechanics. Just ****-poor all around. Avian’s thread is a good example of all the “WTFs”.

4. Random turn order. So a player can play twice in a row? I’ll refrain from phrasing my thoughts more explicitly, lest I be banned. But let’s just say I don’t have much esteem for whoever thought it was a good idea.

5. Measure from models. If models were uniform, OK, but they’re not, they’re wildly different, and posable, and convertible. So it’s just a band aid between pleasing older players who can use their old armies without rebasing and selecting the aesthetic option of round base… just because.

6. Sigmarines. It’s clear it’s marketing and nothing more – “we have a hit in 40K, let’s try and reproduce blatantly that in fantasy”. Not only that, but the gold scheme gets old fast, and we’ve had multiple weeks of the same. It’s not exactly clear if they’re alive, forced, animated armor with ghosts ( la Rubric SM) or something else.

7. Rules written for 10 years old. The blurbs are embarrassing, it’s a sales pitch more than a workable rule set.

8. Extremely expensive book. Sure it’s not mandatory, kudos for giving away the rules, but the book is insulting – badly written fluff, a bit of rules (some of which are free) and a price tag that is borderline sheer theft.

9. No communication – they announce it one month ahead, don’t explain a lot, don’t tease what’s coming, we didn’t know what exactly was in the book and people made assumptions it would include balancing mechanisms.

10. Silly rules. Nuff said.

Sephillion
30-07-2015, 19:01
4. Too many movement "phases." Move unit up to 3" from enemy (even if base movement would suffice to make contact), charge enemy, pile in - it sucks with larger units in which you must move 50 soldiers three times in one turn.
5. No real tactical maneuvering.
7. Stupid changes to race names.
9. No character customization.
10. Where are the farmers and people who need to perform vital, mundane tasks?

Oh yeah, forgot those.

Shandor
30-07-2015, 19:21
1. No More Shoulder Barging (I played WHF because of the Formations and Tactical depth of sight radius, Flanking, Back attacks aso)
2. Sigmarines (I like the idea about Paladins in plate armor on the bettlefield but the Siggys are totaly Fail, fat Space Marines with no character)
3. The Rules (This crap is so unplayable and half done)
4. The "Fun" Rules (If you spend thousands of $ to GW they now want you to make an Idiot out of yourselve because you have an old army? Thanks GW)
5. No Points (There is not much to say)
6. No more WHF (It would be sooooo easy to just have AoS and WHF simultanious. Make Bret, Rat and even Sigmarine Armybooks and have both. Why not?)
7. Gold Spray (Yeah we really needet THAT one! Im sure its MUCH better then the Gold Spray i can buy in a Hardware store)
8. The Fluff (Really did you read that?? Sigmar did make the World including the Chaos gods and Death faction??)
9. The Price (How much for 5 Models again? Ah Really? Wow The Dice cup for 33€ is cheaper then that!)
10. I not allowed to play 8th Edition in the Shop anymore.

Okuto
30-07-2015, 20:22
1- no structure
2- no codpieces and puffy pants in sight
3- the new fluff
4- no slaanesh(the horned rat is no God)
5- sigmarines


Nuff said...ive played it, understand what it wants to be, at peace with it but its not the same world I fell in love with years ago. The warhammer world is an empty place without puffy pants, codpieces and guns......

Bubble Ghost
30-07-2015, 20:36
I could just repost GW's list of reasons to like AoS as my reasons to dislike it. And I LIKE it. It's just that those things are all things I hate about it.

Well, alright, not the gold paint. No objection to that.

employed
30-07-2015, 20:38
11. Because it destroyed the world that 30 years of gamers loved and enjoyed.
This. Loved this game for over 10 years and then it just get squashed by GW cuz it dosn't sell well in the US.

Vulgarsty
30-07-2015, 20:48
I notice someone mentioned mysterious terrain as an 8th fail. It was but i never ever played with it even in tourneys at gw hq. i just agreed not to with my opponent.

the bad bits of wfb were easy to comp. the bad bits of aos next to impossible

datalink7
30-07-2015, 22:17
Top 10 reasons I hate AoS

1. The Stormcast Eternals. It’s pretty hard not to be impressed by these massive, sigmarite-clad warriors. But what’s behind their dour masks and why have we never seen a Stormcast Eternal with his mask off? Read the novella Gates of Azyr to find out what's behind the golden helms.

2. Everyone can take part! No matter what army you collect, you can play Warhammer Age of Sigmar. Even better, all the rules are free to download from the Games Workshop website or free to view through the Warhammer Age of Sigmar App. If you haven’t played it yet, what are you waiting for?

3. Retributor Armour spray. It’s one seriously gold paint, perfect for Stormcast Eternals and other golden warriors (Sanguinary Guard, anyone?). It also comes in a pot, as does the equally-sparkly Liberator Gold, the ideal highlight.

4. The Mortal Realms. From the Realm of Fire to the Realm of Heavens and everything in between, the Mortal Realms offer a lifetime of war zones to fight over. The grassy fields of Averland are a thing of the past. Long live the floating islands of the Shimmertarn, the ever-changing Eldritch Fortress and the blood-spewing geysers of the Igneous Delta.

5. Battleplans. The major battles in the Age of Sigmar are represented as battleplans, enabling you to re-enact them on the battlefield. Though they are featured as part of a campaign, you can fight any battleplan as a one-off game using any models you own.

6. The artwork. The Age of Sigmar heralds a new age of Warhammer art, depicting the armies of the Mortal Realms in epic conflict. The Warhammer Age of Sigmar book even includes illustrations of Azyrheim and the Realm of Heavens, places beyond your wildest imaginings (which, we’re sure, are pretty wild).

7. Warscrolls. Never has finding the rules for your miniatures been easier. Not only are they free to download (website and app, as mentioned above), they’re also very easy to understand, enabling you to spend your day fighting battles rather than flicking through several books to find an obscure rule.

8. No more shoulder barging. It’s fair to say that some units had a reputation for unruliness, punching each other in the face and stabbing each other in the back to form coherent ranks and files. That’s now a thing of the past. Models still fight as units, but without the need to stand shoulder to shoulder on a movement tray, making for a more fluid battle. Plus, your models can stand on scenery properly now, rather than perching precariously on the edge.

9. The rise of the gods. Sigmar is reborn, Nagash has returned and the Horned Rat has taken his rightful place among the Chaos pantheon. The Age of Sigmar is truly a time for gods and monsters. But wait, where is the Dark Prince?

10. Which is exactly what we’ve been wondering here in the White Dwarf bunker. The End Times saw Slaanesh glutted on the souls of so many Elves he was virtually powerless to stop the revenge enacted upon him during the Age of Myth. You can read more about Slaanesh’s fall in the Warhammer Age of Sigmar book, but what will the future bring?

Mateobard
30-07-2015, 22:44
1) The game is wildly imbalanced at it's very core, and cannot be played competitively, casually, or at any level without significantly altering the rules.
2) You destroyed the coolest fantasy world we have for this drivel.
3) You are charging 10 dollars per model standard. Because Warhammer Fantasy and the Old World had to die so you could lower the price point of entry. Here's a hint - no one is going to be playing any games with a single box of miniatures. Offering free rules and calling that a bonus doesn't matter a bit if every model goes for 9-10 dollars a piece. Jesus, it's not weed you're selling.
4) You are now mocking the very game that put you where you are today, you arrogant sods.
5) It's split the community *badly*.
6) 8th edition warhammer was the gold standard of fantasy war games by which all other games were judged, and now it's gone. Bravo, you clowns.
7) You changed the names of races Warhammer had plucked from general fantasy and made their own to stupid gibberish words in the name of IP preservation.
8) Dwarfs that will work as mercs for Chaos? No.
9) Your fluff has gotten laughable. Try the new Stormtoss Bolthurler! Or the new Zapcaster Electrospear!
10) Space Marines are for Space. Not fantasy. Go watch the trailer for Warhammer:Total War and weep at what you sacrificed.

Vulgarsty
31-07-2015, 01:25
The last laugh will be watching Kirby's retirement fund dwindle to nothing, cos he won't be getting much of a dividend next year no matter how much his doppelganger replacement Rowntree freezes his "most valuable assets" wages.....

The final disgusting act that means all my bits must now come from ebay or other manufacturers, with no exceptions.

Sooner they go bust and get the wreckage bought up the better - I wouldn't care if it was Disney right now.

75hastings69
31-07-2015, 03:14
I don't really need 10.

1. AoS is not a game, and certainly not a tabletop wargame/strategy game. It's an idea of what to do with your miniatures collection. A game is usually a competetive encounter between two or more opposing players/teams, without any sort of balancing mechanisim competetive is the last thing it is. It requires so much that players make up their own rules that it was pointless producing any "rules" at all, it feels totally unfinished as a result.

2. As Mateobard quite rightly put:- "You are now mocking the very game that put you where you are today, you arrogant sods" and by doing so are pointing and laughing at those who have been loyal to the brand for years. WFB was GWs oldest setting, to now turn and poke fun at it after 8 editions by proclaming "long live the floating islands of the shimmertarn" is utterly insulting, not only to your previously loyal customers but also to those writers and designers that poured their hearts and souls into the background, writing, artwork etc of WFB for 30 years.

3. It has divided a once pretty tight (and smaller than 40k) community. Regardless of AoS' success/failure it has made the (GW) fantasy hobby a worse place by dividing the lovers of the genre.

4. The names, dear god the names! and the lacklustre naming of everything to sigmar(insert rest here), as one previous poster put I also have not seen naming like this since the smurfs. Lazy, uninspired and child like. Also the names of your new IP friendly races, duardin steamheads???

5. Space Marines. I get WFB needed an iconic race for the sales team/IP lawyers to rally behind, but basically MORE space marines???? come on, it's like you are actually ripping yourselves off now! SM are popular in 40k thanks to years of writing and developed background, just dropping them in a fantasy setting with a half baked lazy backstory is beyond words. Also these models look so generically similar that in theory you could have hired a sculptor to produce one, then sacked him, then get a monkey to add a different weapon each week to form another exciting release. Again lazy and uninspired.


I think that about does it for me.

lbecks
31-07-2015, 03:19
1. No more Araby.
2. Prices.
3. New bases.

Losing Command
31-07-2015, 04:31
1- Without point value's there's no point in trying to play a balanced AoS game.
2- The rules have more holes than swiss cheese, and cover so little of the details required for a fluid wargame even a stripper would blush in shame.
3- Sigmarines are so bland, dull and blantantly obvious marine rip-offs I can't even be bothered to remember their real name.
4- The way GW keeps gloating and making fun about how inferior their previous fantasy wargame was compared to their new work of genious. I mean, it's like only the reason why your company still excists today in the first place...
5- The way it shattered game communities. Locally it starts to look like even those who play 40k are so shocked about what happend that they moved to other games.
6- Since the release of AoS it starts to look like my favorite hobby (40k) is also on the line.
7- The fact that there is so little about AoS there aren't even enough things to make a full top ten about what I don't like.

ShruikhanTK
31-07-2015, 06:54
New Bretonian Knights > Sigmarines....just take a second to imagine that. They could've been so freaking cool and I have zero stake in Brets entirely.

edit: sorry this is just in response to how awesome GW claim sigmarines are, I agree the quality is really nice but the artistic style is a big turn off for me.

Mudkip
31-07-2015, 08:00
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the art yet. Especially what we saw in the Age of Sigmar starter set (or whatever it is). It was mostly the same type of image over and over again: a literal depiction of the sigmarines and chaos guys hitting each other. It was made worse because half the booklet was just photographs of the models which looked similar to the illustrations. It was really boring, unimaginative and repetitive. The art we've seen of Sigmarheim (or whatever it's called) is almost as bad, it's like "OK this is the place where they live". It seems the artists are struggling just as hard as the writers to make these guys interesting. I mean the art is technically competent, if lacking in more subjective artistic merit, unlike the amazingly atrocious writing which is just bad all round, but nonetheless it's a huge step down from the evocative illustrations of the past.

The sterility of AoS is remarkable, you can tell that people are just phoning it in. You can tell that the guys who came up with the Empire had some enthusiasm for history and the Holy Roman Empire even if it's derivative. But what are the creators of sigmarines enthusiastic about? Fascist imagery, perhaps.

75hastings69
31-07-2015, 08:59
I did consider having a go on the comments that muppet from GW wrote about the art, but art being subjective it's difficult to put down why I feel like I do and why others should agree/disagree.

I definitely don't think the art now (AoS) is better for me than WFB, in fact I'm not sure what the plus point for AoS is that the author of that list is trying to highlight? The new stuff for me feels more like by numbers art, but I have no connection to what it depicts so I imagine no more into it than I see at first glance, it's just a bunch of adequate images of sigmarines fighting chaos, it does nothing for me. The old art I felt informed of the stories, characters, races, locations and struggles contained within the images so I looked and thought more into the details of what they were showing me.

I guess not enough has been done to make the subject interesting enough for me to want to look at the images further, a problem not helped by the dire Gates of Azyr book.

Warlord Gnashgrod
31-07-2015, 09:02
heh only need two reasons

1. Everything about AOS. Everything.

2. The loss of true Warhammer Fantasy.

That pretty much sums things up.

Sir_Turalyon
31-07-2015, 18:07
1. Sterility. WFB was a game where fascinating background (largely written back in 90s) and characterful minis kept me playing the game despite underwhelming ruleset. Getting rid of that background and replacing it with sigmarine sigmarium leaves nothing to keep me hooked.

1a. Sigmar sigmar sigmar. He was already one of duller elements of Warhammer background (I always suspected they made Sigmar up just to give some backstory to recurring image of hammer-waving barbarian on covers of first WFB editions, then kept it around when Warhammer world proper was developed). Then they centered what passes as new background around him...

2. Underwhelming rules. Much more so than WFB, where rules were least part to keep me interested already.

3. Golden spray. If I wanted to paint these golden armour suits, I'd start with undercoat of Snakebite Leather (or whatever this shade is called these days) and golden my way up. Golden spray = promoting bad painting habits.

EagleWarrior
31-07-2015, 19:18
10. There was actually a cool game and a cool universe that you destroyed to make room for this drivel.

Totally agree.

logan054
31-07-2015, 19:34
1 Sigmarines
2 terrible rules
3 it's ****
4 the fluff is terrible
5 I don't like 40k, why would I like 40k extra light


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Sureshot05
31-07-2015, 22:30
1. The rules. It is completely destroying the whole point of there being a game. I guess the rebranding from games workshop couldn't come sooner as the lack of game is very apparent.

2. The Sigmarines background.

3. The sigmarine pose. It feels like every model is the same. Sure they are intricate, but I feel that the 6th Ed Empire Vs. Orc boxset was way above this.

4. There is much less to differentiate between units now, its a real tragedy. I just don't really see the point in buying different models for the game. The novel rules rarely add to the fun or tactics. I'm sure that more elaborate rules will come with some models, but at the moment, this is dire.

5. The complete unnecessary destruction of the old world.
Sigmarines could have been worked in. How long have some players cried out to advance the old world time line. The End time books could have been a real opener to a new age of Warhammer. A world were sigmar send his lost warriors to fight back against chaos. A world where gates open all over the place, enabling travel across the globe in a heart beat (now the lizardmen can be in Altdorf). There was a real potential to shake up the old world, but absolutely no need to destroy it. This was driven by IP and lawyers and it really shows.

6. The new background. Everything I have read is dire. I just don't see any reason to care. A small empire militia holding out against the undead, with more rising around them as they fight. That is really evocative. Sigmarines fight chaos because thats what they do. I just don't care.

7. The blatant cut and paste of marines from 40k. I love 40k, I love warhammer. Why do I need marines in warhammer? I see zero reason to play another version of 40k, especially with these bad rules.

8. The lack of releases and information. I get it, GW wants me to be excited about what is current. But it doesn't work with a new release. Either I like Sigmarines, or I don't. And I don't. So there is nothing to get me excited about the current release and no hint of new models to draw me.

9.The destruction of the community. Its split and definitely not grown. I see some who are liking the initial release, and great for them. But there are fewer of them than there are fantasy players who have given up on GW. Its a real disaster in a small gaming community for Warhammer in general. I'll echo others above me in that the 40k community is very nervous about where the game is heading. The codex barrage was bad, but if GW are going to go AoS on 40k I think the writing may be on the wall for GW.

10. Lastly, the biggest issue for warhammer was price and lack of scalability in the rules, and the new Sigmarines exasperate this, not fix it.

lbecks
31-07-2015, 22:59
I did consider having a go on the comments that muppet from GW wrote about the art, but art being subjective it's difficult to put down why I feel like I do and why others should agree/disagree.

I definitely don't think the art now (AoS) is better for me than WFB, in fact I'm not sure what the plus point for AoS is that the author of that list is trying to highlight? The new stuff for me feels more like by numbers art, but I have no connection to what it depicts so I imagine no more into it than I see at first glance, it's just a bunch of adequate images of sigmarines fighting chaos, it does nothing for me. The old art I felt informed of the stories, characters, races, locations and struggles contained within the images so I looked and thought more into the details of what they were showing me.

I guess not enough has been done to make the subject interesting enough for me to want to look at the images further, a problem not helped by the dire Gates of Azyr book.


I miss the old art where the artists didn't have to make things look just like the models, and they often painted things without models, and Blanche made them paint everything physically. Some of the art now is still good, but it always has to look like the models, and a lot of it looks like contracted art. But this was a change they made before AoS.

Buddy Bear
31-07-2015, 22:59
1. No points or balancing mechanism of any kind.
2. Measurement done from miniature rather than base.
3. Chance to hit and wound having nothing to do with the target. A Night Goblin can hit a Bloodthirster as easily as another Night Goblin, and can wound a Steam Tank on the same chance as another Night Goblin.
4. Blowing up the fantastic Warhammer World and replacing it with a cheap knockoff of the Norse Nine Realms with Sigmar becoming a blatant Thor ripoff and the Stormsworn Externals ripping off the Einherjar.
5. Victory requiring the total annihilation of an enemy force rather than victory points or objectives.
6. The only alternative to the above, sudden death, hurts horde armies.
7. The loss of ranked combat.
8. The personality black holes which are the Sigmarines. Vapid, unimaginative army filled with uninteresting "people" with no real value as characters, because even when they die they just respawn, so where're the stakes?
9. The ridiculous price for said Sigmarines. It's breathtaking that I can get 6 Ogres, which are larger than Sigmarines, for $10 less.
10. Slaanesh being replaced by the Horned Rat as a Chaos God, the clearest indication they're trying to make a game for pre-schoolers.
11. The art isn't that great. And what's up with that right handed Sigmarine who has his backup weapon sheathed on the right side?

Skargit Crookfang
31-07-2015, 23:08
1) Poor business decision. If WHFB was dying (a certain Mark Twain quote springs to mind), and Hobbit/LotR are clearly on the way out, AoS would have been grand as a "get you in" hobby game. Make it easy, keep it as it has been made, and make it easy for players to transition to WHFB or 40k. It's the first taste to get you addicted, not the entirity of the experience.

2) Seemingly unfinished ruleset. I can see the barebones of a system in there...somewhere..

3) New models/imagery just aren't for me.

4) Games have become a nightmare to balance. It's been less than a month, and everyone and their mother seems to have a different comp system.

5) GWs lack of communication through this whole process.

6) Infuriatingly boring to play my goblins. "Okay, this mob of 40 is moving, my horde of 50 archers is shuffling, my 20 wolf riders are going to pull a heck of a move before running... you'll have to give me 20 minutes to move these mobs... mind grabbing me a coffee?"

7) 30 years of lore mothballed... and very little to replace it. I know, it's new... but this is way, way too little to get the majority interested.

8) Already cheesy combos showing up a the few places its being played around here. It's starting to make 8th ed. Doomfires look friendly.

9) Simple rules made needlessly complex. 21 types of shields? That's.... that's gotta be a meme by now...

10) Most importantly, it has the WHFB community at eachother's throats. I may not like AoS, but I like my fellow hobbyist, and hate seeing this much division and vitriol.

theunwantedbeing
31-07-2015, 23:15
1. The incessant bitching and moaning about it.
2. see 1


Seriously though
1. No ranked units
2. No facings
3. No structure for lists
4. No stat comparisons
5. No magical items
6. The incessant bitching and moaning about it
7. I give up

Mostly it's the lack of ranked formations and the ensuing loss of playstyle that results that I dislike the most followed by how simplistic everything now is.
I'm fine with no points though, and the fluff being entirely new, and the sigmarines, and so on.

swordofglass
31-07-2015, 23:24
1.No points
2. Bad rules
3. Killed 8th
4. Legacy jokes
5. Pricey spray
6. Lame names
7. Dumbed down
8. No arcs
9. Committee-designed
10. Hack fluff

Flipmode
01-08-2015, 08:22
Only one for me, and not limited to AoS:

Lack of any communication that is not marketing. There used to be excellent articles about why they went in a particular direction that were written by someone actually involved. You could disagree, but at least you could respect it.

The rest I can overcome or bypass.

MiyamatoMusashi
01-08-2015, 15:21
1. They destroyed the world I loved for 30 years to make way for this.
2. The fluff is horrible in concept and execution. Sigmar, Sigmarite, Sigmarabulum, Sigmarabulus... it's just awful.
3. None of the game rules have any verisimilitude whatsoever. Example: shooting while in melee.
4. It's impossible to play RAW. There are so many holes, you have to house rule almost everything.
5. There are no flanks, no rears, practically no cover, no manoeuvre, no tactics, and therefore nothing of interest.
6. GW have apparently resorted to openly mocking the old game, and deriding its fans.
7. People are actually trying to defend it. This highlights just how ridiculous human beings can be.
8. Even if you win, you don't know if you just had better models, or actually played well - there is no way to judge this.
9. If you decide to actually try to win, it is trivial to do so if you own more, and better, models than your opponent.
10. When it fails, GW will conclude that Fantasy is not worth bothering with. It would be, if it were a good game.

I could go on in this vein for quite a while. Those are the top ten, though.

Kegslayer
01-08-2015, 16:38
S.S.D.D.
Gives me an idea for a thread though

Kahadras
01-08-2015, 17:15
1. Lack of a balancing mechanic.
2. Cost of the new unit box sets (30 to 35 for 5 Sigmarines)
3. Poor background writing i.e in fair Sigmaron Sigmar forged his Sigmarines out of Sigmarite using the Hammer of Sigmar.
4. Lack of rules. OK we're given them for free (which is good) but it's obvious that very little work has gone into writing them (all four pages)
5. Rebranding of everything. Not really sure why they did it. It's stupid.
6. 'Removal' of Slannesh. Presumably to make the game 'safer' for kids (Gods of blood, murder and plague are fine. Boobs aren't)
7. Stupid warscrolls for those of us that already had Warhammer armies presumably to either push us out the door or into the 'new' AoS armies (who have sensible rules that don't 'encourage' you to talk to your models or dance around the table).
8. Removal of options. No magic items lists, no spell lists etc.
9. Weird rules stuff. Shoot in combat, shoot out of combat, hit a Vampire Lord as easily as a Zombie, wound a Goblin as easily as a dragon etc.
10. GW, a company that belives itself to be a market leader, puts out this tat and seems to expect it to succeed. This is from the same company that brought you stuff like Bloodbowl, Necromunda, Warhammer Quest and Space Hulk. I don't like AoS because I've seen where GW has come from and what it's been reduced to.

MiyamatoMusashi
01-08-2015, 17:27
I've seen where GW has come from and what it's been reduced to.

Quoted for truth.

Griefbringer
01-08-2015, 17:44
6. 'Removal' of Slannesh. Presumably to make the game 'safer' for kids (Gods of blood, murder and plague are fine. Boobs aren't)


All is not lost! Looking at the chaos models in the AoS starter set, it still seems that whips, chains, leather, spiked collars, piercing, ritual scarring, fetish headwear, manacles, claws and tentacles are still considered perfectly suitable for the target audience. Whether the hedonistic hermaphrodites will make an appearance might be another issue.

Kahadras
01-08-2015, 23:28
All is not lost! Looking at the chaos models in the AoS starter set, it still seems that whips, chains, leather, spiked collars, piercing, ritual scarring, fetish headwear, manacles, claws and tentacles are still considered perfectly suitable for the target audience. Whether the hedonistic hermaphrodites will make an appearance might be another issue.

Whips, chains, leather and tentacles are fine as long as there are no boobs! Murder is fine as long as there are no boobs! No boobs allowed Griefbringer. No boobs allowed.

Commissar von Toussaint
01-08-2015, 23:57
Whips, chains, leather and tentacles are fine as long as there are no boobs! Murder is fine as long as there are no boobs! No boobs allowed Griefbringer. No boobs allowed.

One thing that always amused me is how both 40k and fantasy are completely sexless. I mean there are some women in there somewhere, but there is absolutely zero reference to reproduction or romance or anything close to it anywhere. The closest one gets is the story of the Sisters of Battle being used as concubines and then of course the Good Guys said: "Right, no more of that. Chastity for all of you."

Even the fantasy fluff makes Lord of the Rings look like a bodice-ripper. The Dark Elves and Chaos have all the toys of 50 Shades of Gray but they keep well away from tales of romance and betrayal. Sure the Witch-elves are dressed like bondage queens, but it's only their uniform. When they finish their shift they change into track suits and chill out.

The only reference to critters actually making more critters are...Lizardmen. They have spawning pools, which is okay to talk about because we studied that in 6th grade biology class.

Don't get me wrong; not every setting has to have Game of Thrones levels of lusty perversion, but even Star Wars had some kissing. Heck, Battletech had some romantic plots regarding the great houses.

But GW? Eh, girls are kind of icky, so unless they are dressed as (chaste) dominatrices, we'd best leave them out.

Malagor
02-08-2015, 00:29
One thing that always amused me is how both 40k and fantasy are completely sexless. I mean there are some women in there somewhere, but there is absolutely zero reference to reproduction or romance or anything close to it anywhere. The closest one gets is the story of the Sisters of Battle being used as concubines and then of course the Good Guys said: "Right, no more of that. Chastity for all of you."

Not true.
While it does seem like GW wants to move away from that but in the past they have been quite graphic.
In the Horus Heresy series, we got lesbian romances(thousand sons), we got orgies among other things in Fulgrim and for the fantasy side, in Temple of the Serpent we got a first officer in love with a prostitute that the captain brought along for fun and more.

HereComesTomorrow
02-08-2015, 00:51
1) The blatant attempts to make everything trademarkable. Battleshock! Battleformations! Warscrolls! Battleplans! Battlewars!

2) Kind of an extension on 1, bit everything feels soulless and corporate. This is also what put me off 40k. You used to be able to feel the enthusiasm of the writer through the army books and it was weirdly infectious. End Times Nagash had it. You could see where people with real passion for the setting sat around a table and went "wouldn't it be cool if...". All of the fluff for AoS seems very much like an editor mandate.

3)Having to houserule really basic stuff like no shooting into and out of combat, measuring from bases and 1s always fail.

4) The facade of depth. The rules are simple yes. The battlescrolls seem like they add depth but its just a load of convoluted nonsense. Does a basic orc really need 7 different special rules?

5) How much it rips off Warmachine while taking away nothing good from it. Well, okay, the monsters losing attacks from being damaged is a good thing. They managed to mess up everything else. Why have a melee range when you need to get within .5"? Why does only one model need to get there? Is everyone else in his unit waiting to see if its safe to run? Why do things move again after charging? Why is there so much moving in general?

6) Boring magic.

7) Standardised To Hit and Wound rolls. A goblin asthe same chance of hitting a scarab beetle as he does a Bloodthirster. He is also not scared of said Bloodthirster in the slightest.

8) Sitting on a fence gives you cover. Standing behind it doesn't. Convoluted scenery rules. Deadly rocks and Inspiring Wooden Fences add to the convoluted mess of modifiers that are warscrolls.

9) No customising heroes. I suppose I'll put no points in here as well. I loved making lists. Trying to find 3 points to give a hero a better sword or a unit a magic banner was a good time and made my armies feel like my own. Now they just feel like I would be throwing some products on a table. Theres a reason video game players say "pay to win" like its a dirty word.

10) They killed a world I love for no reason. Everything that they wanted in AoS could have been done in the Old World.

Griefbringer
02-08-2015, 07:33
One thing that always amused me is how both 40k and fantasy are completely sexless. I mean there are some women in there somewhere, but there is absolutely zero reference to reproduction or romance or anything close to it anywhere.

Actually, there is some romance here and there, if you keep your eyes open. Going back to the 4th edition army books, Vlad and Isabella von Carstein were actually described as developing a pretty good relationship already when Isabella was an ordinary human - actually Vald was reluctant to her into a vampire. And from the 4th edition dark elf book we can read rumours of Morathi being Malekith's "unholy lover" - something that seems to be also hinted at in a more subtle form in some 6th edition material. High elf army book also tells that before ending up with Morathi, Aenarion had a relationship with the Everqueen which produced two children.

And going to the short stories and novels, there is plenty of romance (sometimes tragic) to be found - starting from Detlef Sierck falling in love with Genevieve in the early Jack Yeovil novels. And Felix Jaegar also had at least one fling during his travels. Even 40K setting has had it's share, at least if you go back to the very early Deathwing anthology.

Khastarax
02-08-2015, 19:24
One of my favorite things is and has been building armylists , with points that is. As mentioned before by HereComesTomorrow #9 , character building, going for different builds continuously and with units trying to squize it all in and having to make (tactical) choises because it doesnt fit... Love(ed) it!

llort
02-08-2015, 20:06
All is not lost! Looking at the chaos models in the AoS starter set, it still seems that whips, chains, leather, spiked collars, piercing, ritual scarring, fetish headwear, manacles, claws and tentacles are still considered perfectly suitable for the target audience. Whether the hedonistic hermaphrodites will make an appearance might be another issue.

This one for me is a biggy. It's a smack in the face of reason. You want to increase market share by alienating your loyal veteran players with "re-branding" so much that you are "off brand." Insane. But...okay...now what next GW? Oh, you want to also alienate your new target market with demonic overtly sexual characters that are parodies of "toughness." Madness. (The Stormcast Eternals-- I'm okay with them... but the Khorne. What the flip were they thinking?)

I don't know if they can fix this; I don't think the AOS dog is "going to bite" as they say.

Griefbringer
02-08-2015, 20:52
Oh, you want to also alienate your new target market with demonic overtly sexual characters that are parodies of "toughness." Madness. (The Stormcast Eternals-- I'm okay with them... but the Khorne. What the flip were they thinking?)


I am sometimes wondering if those Stormcast Eternals could also be interpreted as subtly suggestive in their own way: golden muscled chest and abdomen armour, smooth masks, loinclothes, huge hammers.

Plus in the fluff they are described as being very angry and very eager to go and hammer those fetish-Khornates with their huge hammers. Some psychologists would probably interpret that anger as being a result of frustration due to them suppressing some of their true feelings...

mrknify
02-08-2015, 21:03
Because plague bearers are on the side of order.http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/08/02/5628e72a92b96f7d977026800976cd2c.jpg

Shandor
02-08-2015, 21:38
Actually, there is some romance here and there, if you keep your eyes open. Going back to the 4th edition army books, Vlad and Isabella von Carstein were actually described as developing a pretty good relationship already when Isabella was an ordinary human - actually Vald was reluctant to her into a vampire. And from the 4th edition dark elf book we can read rumours of Morathi being Malekith's "unholy lover" - something that seems to be also hinted at in a more subtle form in some 6th edition material. High elf army book also tells that before ending up with Morathi, Aenarion had a relationship with the Everqueen which produced two children.

And going to the short stories and novels, there is plenty of romance (sometimes tragic) to be found - starting from Detlef Sierck falling in love with Genevieve in the early Jack Yeovil novels. And Felix Jaegar also had at least one fling during his travels. Even 40K setting has had it's share, at least if you go back to the very early Deathwing anthology.

Dont forget Krell and Heinrich Kemmler.. most romancing pair ever! Those two were always together. :p

Buddy Bear
02-08-2015, 22:06
I feel like the same effect could be achieved by just having every "player" take a screenshot of their current bank account balance and sharing it, and whoever has the highest balance wins, because that's pretty much what Age of Sigmar boils down to: did you spend more money on your army? You did? Then you win!

mrknify
02-08-2015, 23:23
I feel like the same effect could be achieved by just having every "player" take a screenshot of their current bank account balance and sharing it, and whoever has the highest balance wins, because that's pretty much what Age of Sigmar boils down to: did you spend more money on your army? You did? Then you win!
I'm not going to post my balance. I would never spen that much money on something that's not going to give me returns.

Besides my back log will keep me busy for years due to my previous spending on warhammer and 40k.

Spiney Norman
02-08-2015, 23:48
I feel like the same effect could be achieved by just having every "player" take a screenshot of their current bank account balance and sharing it, and whoever has the highest balance wins, because that's pretty much what Age of Sigmar boils down to: did you spend more money on your army? You did? Then you win!

After almost 20 years of playing warhammer I own 5 armies, two of which number in excess of 10,000 pts, I'm fairly confident in saying I could completely fill the deployment zones of an 8ft table and still have plenty of undead and Lizardmen (err, seraphon) to summon mid-game.

Actually the instant death rule changes things, it means that quantity of models is not what the game is about, it's about spamming as many high quality troops as you can and then trying to get an ID objective with access to something like a hell cannon that can easily snipe a character off the board.

mrknify
05-08-2015, 16:56
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/08/05/07c5745a4a344ba047e1f87807600882.jpg

Oh yeah!

Spiney Norman
05-08-2015, 17:15
Things I dislike about AoS

1. No balance, this is not necessarily about points, its about the lack of points or anything workable to replace them, 'power-gamers paradise' does not even begin to cover it.
2. Instant death - it's possibly the worst designed rule ever for a war game
3. Single-wound infantry is effectively worthless because 2 values a night goblin as equal to a blood thirster
4. Summoning - easy access to bringing on extra units allows you to easily circumvent the ID rule and quickly amass over powering armies.
5. Chain summoning - like 4 only much, much worse. Summon a unit of pink horrors, then use that unit's spell to summon another unit of pink horrors, rinse and repeat until your spell fails, is dispelled or you run out of horrors in your case, then if you have another wizard, do the same again.
6. Nagash, see no. 4 only do it 8 times a turn while doubling the quantities of whatever the spell you are attempting normally allows you to summon.
7. Cover rules are just silly
8. Measuring from model rather than base - because chipping the paint on your/your opponents models with the steel tip of your tape measure really shouldn't be part of the game.

I can genuinely only think of 8 without being vindictive and/or derrogatory about stormcast eternal, and I'm endeavouring to not be either.

Sephillion
05-08-2015, 18:02
6. 'Removal' of Slannesh. Presumably to make the game 'safer' for kids (Gods of blood, murder and plague are fine. Boobs aren't)


But where is the Dark Prince?
:P

Shandor
05-08-2015, 18:03
But where is the Dark Prince?
:P

Haha this will never get old :)

Giankllr
05-08-2015, 20:18
l need only one point:
1. AoS permits GW to forget about the World Warhammer. They said it clearly: ''The grassy fields of Averland are a thing of the past.''

EagleWarrior
05-08-2015, 20:25
l need only one point:
1. AoS permits GW to forget about the World Warhammer. They said it clearly: ''The grassy fields of Averland are a thing of the past.''

Yeah, this is pretty much it. I could forgive the rules, I could forgive the sigmarines, I could even forgive the price tag (mostly because I wouldn't be buying them) if they hadn't thrown away the world and replaced it with a far less interesting one.

logan054
05-08-2015, 21:07
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/08/05/07c5745a4a344ba047e1f87807600882.jpg

Oh yeah!

AoW gives free rules yet managed to produce something decent. Free isn't an excuse for poor writing. Besides I think the price of the models more than compensates for anything free GW give.


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