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Nihilus66
31-07-2015, 09:21
I've always heard about this here and there, of how daemon primarch Fulgrim is the one who stabs Guilliman and puts him in his stasis field condition. Just wondering where all this started really? I have also been re-reading Angel Exterminatus and came across this line from Fulgrim "“You aren’t close to Guilliman either,’ pointed out Perturabo.‘No?’ said Fulgrim, looking up as though puzzled by his own words. ‘Ah, perhaps not yet, but I will finish what Lorgar’s zealots have begun.”
So Fulgrim already knows he will kill Guilliman at some point in the future?

Lupe
31-07-2015, 09:49
So Fulgrim already knows he will kill Guilliman at some point in the future?

Well, Fulgrim's already planned his ascension well before the point he says that, right? Him saying he's going to kill Guilliman is just him voicing out other plans.

It's a fairly logical assessment, to be fair. If he's planning to attack the Ultramarines, Guilliman will eventually have to confront him. Given the power increase that Fulgrim gets by his ascension, he's very confident he will win that fight easily. (Not that he wouldn't have been confident anyway, given his opinion of himself).

EDIT: Long story short, I think it's a case of premeditation rather than prescience.

Nihilus66
31-07-2015, 12:11
True, but he would also have to know that Kor Phaeron/Lorgar would fail in their attempt to kill Guilliman, I'm more wondering if Fulgrim knows a lot more than he's letting on and may explain why he doesn't partake in the seige of Terra? Also is there any solid background about the actual killing anywhere or just snippets?

Nihilus66
31-07-2015, 12:13
And from one source I've found it happens way after Terra, so that's some long term planning lol

fluxdeluxe
31-07-2015, 19:15
And from one source I've found it happens way after Terra, so that's some long term planning lol

It is in the index astartes and happens post the alleged death of alpharius either after the scouring or at the end of that period

DuskRaider
31-07-2015, 21:28
Once Fulgrim ascends, look at him more as an extension of Slaanesh itself. That's pretty much what Daemon Princes are. As gods of the Warp, they are privvy to the future with much certainty... which would include Guilliman falling to Fulgrim.

Marshal_Loss
01-08-2015, 04:09
Don't forget that Angel Exterminatus is written by G Mc, who loves putting in teasers for future events. Angel Exterminatus is full of like 50 of them, from the various IW characters who feature in his 40k novels (I mean, the novel ends with Hon...sou!) to others like Fulgrim, so I think it's safe to say that it is intentional foreshadowing

bittick
24-08-2015, 16:56
Fulgrim killing Guilleman goes back at least to 2nd edition, maybe earlier. I think it's in the Ultramarines codex from like 1994.

Snake Tortoise
24-08-2015, 17:29
It would be great if after the HH series is done BL turn their attention to the events between 30k and 40k, namely the fall/disappearance of the loyalist primarchs.

Captain Idaho
24-08-2015, 18:01
It's an interesting confrontation we're yet to see.

Though I doubt it will be very one sided. In fact, it's incredibly likely Fulgrim actually loses. Why? Because when the mists clear, the Primarch is gone as are his men. Sounds like they're banished as the Ultramarines are left on the field.

People don't like this interpretation but it's logical. After all, why would Fulgrim just injure Guilliman then leave? And Guilliman doesn't die until just before the stasis field is set up, which is after the battle.

Mellow
25-08-2015, 13:11
There is no way that a guy with a single sword and shield can beat a Daemon Primarch that is a lot larger and has multiple arms.

bittick
25-08-2015, 13:24
There is no way that a guy with a single sword and shield can beat a Daemon Primarch that is a lot larger and has multiple arms.

Based on what, exactly?

Karhedron
25-08-2015, 13:41
It would be great if after the HH series is done BL turn their attention to the events between 30k and 40k, namely the fall/disappearance of the loyalist primarchs.

Interesting but would that not just feel like an epilogue? There have been one or two books set in this period I think (Battle of the Fang for example). The trouble with writing about the disappearances of the Primarchs is that it then puts much more precise constraints on when and whether they will be able to return. My guess is that GW will want to leave themselves some wriggle room here. Given that we can now field Knights and Gargantuan Creatures, I don't think the idea of the Primarchs popping up in 40K is as unlikely as it once was.

Horus38
25-08-2015, 13:53
There is no way that a guy with a single sword and shield can beat a Daemon Primarch that is a lot larger and has multiple arms.

This was a real laugh out loud moment for me. Clearly there are NO POSSIBLE abilities or situations the former could have to EVER beat the latter!!

bittick
25-08-2015, 14:32
There is no way that a guy with a single sword and shield can beat a Daemon Primarch that is a lot larger and has multiple arms.

Yeah there's no way this guy can beat a monster with multiple arms:

219103

Lord Damocles
25-08-2015, 17:16
There is no way that a guy with a single sword and shield can beat a Daemon Primarch that is a lot larger and has multiple arms.
Tell that to Brother Captain Aurelius.



Given that we can now field Knights and Gargantuan Creatures, I don't think the idea of the Primarchs popping up in 40K is as unlikely as it once was.
Daemon Angron (and sort of daemon Magnus) already got rules in White Dwarf a couple of years ago.

randian
25-08-2015, 18:00
The odd thing is Fulgrim not finishing the job, there's a real good chance the poison doesn't work.

Harwammer
25-08-2015, 19:37
As a pawn of Slaanesh, the god of pain, perhaps it was in Slaanesh's plans all along to put a loyal primarch into agony with a poisoned blade, and then have that agony last for eternity by trapping the poisoned primarch in a stasis field just at the point of death?

Mellow
25-08-2015, 20:11
Based on what, exactly?

Logic, one sword one defence.


This was a real laugh out loud moment for me. Clearly there are NO POSSIBLE abilities or situations the former could have to EVER beat the latter!!

Nope, never!


Yeah there's no way this guy can beat a monster with multiple arms:

219103

Oh please He-Man is about 10 orders of magnitude more dangerous than a simple Primarch!

bittick
25-08-2015, 21:48
Oh please He-Man is about 10 orders of magnitude more dangerous than a simple Primarch!

Well, I definitely agree with that. ;)

As far as the original contention, I think I need to clarify my position. I think Fulgrim killed Guilleman, no question. He slashed his throat with a super-poison sword, Guilleman falls down, and Fulgrim bugs out (probably because Ultramarines reinforcements were coming or something). However... I don't think having 6 arms or whatever he had is the key to his victory. Fulgrim was always a badass. He strikes me as a glass hammer among Primarchs, though. Very fast, very skilled, carrying very dangerous weapons. Defense-wise? I don't think he's that great. Physical strength? Not that great. He moves fast and hits hard, but he's not going to absorb a lot of blows. That's how I see him anyway.

Regardless, how big an advantage is it to a Primarch to become Chaos empowered? To get multiple arms? I mean, he basically got turned into a D&D Marilith. But does that make him much stronger? Or have Primarchs already sort of capped out? Maybe it just makes him part-demon so he's semi-immortal, but now vulnerable to banishment. I'm sure it makes him different​, but not necessarily more powerful.

Captain Idaho
25-08-2015, 22:16
The Primarchs were designed to fight chaos, using the secrets of the warp, so they're not particularly outclassed by a Daemon Primarch.

I say look at precedent - how does Fulgrim behave with other fights against his brothers? Has he ever besten anybody then left their corpse unsullied ;)

Then look at the actual wording - "as Guilliman died". This was after Fulgrim banished. There's no mention of Ultramarines reinforcements so that is just assumption.

Looking at our limited facts (which will change soon as BL get on it so this discussion will be out of date anyway) and we have Fulgrim leaving for an unknown reason alongside his Legion. What possible reason can that be that also coincides with what we know about Fulgrim? It's unlikely he's going to leave of his own accord. We can't assume "because Slannesh wanted to" as that makes little sense.

What are we left with? He was forced to leave somehow.

bittick
25-08-2015, 22:59
That he fatally poisoned Guilleman, had finished what he set out to do, and then ran off?

You have absolutely nothing to indicate that Guilleman somehow "actually won" that fight. I mean, he's the guy who is stuck in stasis for ten thousand years, while Fulgrim is off enjoying a donkey show in the Eye of Terror. You can't just say "well we don't know exactly what happened, so we can only assume that Guilleman beat the hell out of him and Fulgrim ran away afraid". There's nothing to back that up.

khirsath
26-08-2015, 02:51
Could be that Fulgrim cut Guilleman and saw that the poison would kill him. Only it was taking too long for his enhanced sense of patience. Fulgrim grew bored and went off looking for new sensations.:p

If Fulgrim was bested by Guilleman, why hasn't he tried to get some sort of revenge? It has been quite a while so he could have returned from his banishment and at least tried to get into the stasis chamber to make his brother pay. After all, Fulgrim is a rather proudful chap and wouldn't sit around knowing that he had been bested by a bureaucrat.

Captain Idaho
26-08-2015, 09:25
Um, Guilliman is dead. What revenge would you be looking for? If Fulgrim could easily attack Maccragge then I'm sure he would lol.

In the words of Ned Flanders - you're straining to do some explaining. It makes no sense he'd run off and leave Guilliman to dying and all the Legion disappeared also.

It's just assumption.

Whilst I accept there is assumption on my part that Fulgrim has been defeated, at least it's a consistent assumption based upon prior behaviour and logical actions. (As in daemon banishment etc, all established fluff)

"Fulgrim won and just ran off" sounds pretty weak. Basically if you have to make up a bunch of out of universe reasons, it probably didn't happen that way.

Karhedron
26-08-2015, 10:37
Regardless, how big an advantage is it to a Primarch to become Chaos empowered? To get multiple arms? I mean, he basically got turned into a D&D Marilith. But does that make him much stronger? Or have Primarchs already sort of capped out? Maybe it just makes him part-demon so he's semi-immortal, but now vulnerable to banishment. I'm sure it makes him different​, but not necessarily more powerful.

It's hard to tell. In Angel Exterminatus, Fulgrim went to a lot of effort to achieve his ascension and seemed to think it was worthwhile. We haven't seen him in much action since so there is no clear indication of how much of a power-up he gained as a result. One scene was in Vengeful Spirit when some loyalists attacked Horus, Mortarion and Fulgrim with gunships. Fulgrim employed some sort of kine-shield which only Magnus and his top sorcerers had been shown using previously.

Fulgrim has not been shown using any sorcery or psychic powers prior to his corruption so it definitely looks like he gained in some areas at least. My impression is that a Daemon Primarch probably gains in power but a similar amount to how a Poessessed CSM gains over a normal one.

Also, we simply do not know if the Primarchs were immortal as designed by the Emperor. The loyalist Primarchs are all dead or missing and the traitors are either dead or ascended. It is possible that the Primarchs would eventually have aged and died. In Vengeful Spirit, Horus enters the Warp and experiences centuries of conflict (although for the observers outside the gate it was only a few seconds). On his return, he looked older with a lined face and some grey hair. This suggests that the Primarchs can age and might eventually have died at some point.

Angron was definitely dying prior to his ascension due to the effects of the Butchers Nails so he definitely gained from becoming a daemon.

khirsath
26-08-2015, 12:16
Captain Idaho: I thought Guilleman was dying and not dead, hence the need for stasis in lieu of a tomb. I was just playing devil's advocate as I see your interpretation of Fulgrim's disappearance as the most likely.

I was just wondering why Fulgrim has never returned to avenge his pride. He wouldn't be beyond desecrating a corpse to slight a perceived wrong. I don't think his ego would let him rest without doing something if Guilleman had bested him, or even if it had ended in a tie of sorts.

Karhedron
26-08-2015, 12:26
Slaanesh is capricious and fickle (being made up of trillions of Eldar souls) and I am sure Fulgrim is no less so. The idea of poisoning his brother and leaving his sons helpless to cure him while he vanishes laughing into the mists seems very appropriate.

Captain Idaho
26-08-2015, 14:52
Captain Idaho: I thought Guilleman was dying and not dead, hence the need for stasis in lieu of a tomb. I was just playing devil's advocate as I see your interpretation of Fulgrim's disappearance as the most likely.

I was just wondering why Fulgrim has never returned to avenge his pride. He wouldn't be beyond desecrating a corpse to slight a perceived wrong. I don't think his ego would let him rest without doing something if Guilleman had bested him, or even if it had ended in a tie of sorts.

He was dying when the mists left and then he died as the stasis field was set up.

I doubt very much Fulgrim could attack Maccragge for the same reasons as Angron needing to set up monuments and rituals on Armageddon - Daemons have limitations in the mortal realm.


Maccragge is pretty heavily defended to boot.

To be fair, much of the Legions have grudges against each other so it makes little sense they haven't all wiped each other out yet. But that's 40K.

Captain Idaho
26-08-2015, 15:05
Slaanesh is capricious and fickle (being made up of trillions of Eldar souls) and I am sure Fulgrim is no less so. The idea of poisoning his brother and leaving his sons helpless to cure him while he vanishes laughing into the mists seems very appropriate.


You know what's even more like Slannesh? Mutilation, torture, anguish and despair reaped on cherished brothers.

You're describing Tzeentch I feel.

nagash66
26-08-2015, 18:24
He was dying when the mists left and then he died as the stasis field was set up.

I doubt very much Fulgrim could attack Maccragge for the same reasons as Angron needing to set up monuments and rituals on Armageddon - Daemons have limitations in the mortal realm.


Maccragge is pretty heavily defended to boot.

To be fair, much of the Legions have grudges against each other so it makes little sense they haven't all wiped each other out yet. But that's 40K.


He is not dead, he was put in stasis near death but not dead.

Also chaos can have a 1000 reasons for just leaving in a puff of smoke, most simple and supported by the Angel Exterminatus book? That is how Fulgrim had forseen the encounter to play out. Other likely reasons, he wanted the ultramarines to be stuck with a dying fathet they could never cure or help. He wanted his brother to suffer a slow death all the while knowing he lost and every seccond left is a gift froma sworn enemy. Or he did what he came to do, which based on the fact we know nothing on the encouter could be anthing from 'picking up his favourite pair of shoes' to 'setting events in motion as ordered by his god, events which would play out a certain way to affect change 10000 years into the future'.

Saying Fulgrim lost because i want him to has no merit other then personal bias. Fulgrim winning on the other hand is based on the fact that he walked away into the smoke and his enemy was left bleeding out on the field.

Now i will say it is presented vague enought so anything could happen in a future detailed write out,

inq.serge
26-08-2015, 21:53
What if Fulgrim honestly didn't care about maccragge, or the heresy at all after his ascension, now that he was a daemon Primarch and had a planet of pleasure, no, THE Planet of Pleasure, and killed Robute just for fun?

Karhedron
26-08-2015, 22:41
What if Fulgrim honestly didn't care about maccragge, or the heresy at all after his ascension, now that he was a daemon Primarch and had a planet of pleasure, no, THE Planet of Pleasure, and killed Robute just for fun?

This is probably closest to the money. The events in the materium just aren't that interesting anymore when he can spend centuries indulging in sensual excess in every heartbeat in the warp.

"He's so far beyond good and evil that he couldn't see them with a telescope on a nice clear night!"

Phunting
27-08-2015, 19:14
He is not dead, he was put in stasis near death but not dead.2e Codex Ultramarines states several times that he was put in stasis after his death, and that the field is to preserve his body from decomposition. IA Ultramarines isn't as explicit, but says he was put into stasis 'as [he] died'. Wouldn't be surprised if there are other more vague accounts though and agree that like anything, there's plenty of room for interpretation.

Wazzahamma
29-08-2015, 13:13
it's prescience. in angels ext there's a scene when baby fulgrim is found- some sort of artwork or story depicting a giant in blue battling a serpent.

kilkrazy
30-08-2015, 09:17
Guillimans problem is that he needs time to formulate a plan. I can't imagine Fulgrim giving him that time.

Old-Four-Arms
30-08-2015, 12:43
Might the poisoned blade Fulgrim used not be the Kinebrach Anathame ?

In the available fluff/background on the Anathame, it says : "If the name of a target was spoken to the blade, the weapon would become totally inimical to that being on an almost molecular level, producing poisons and toxins tailored specifically to them, while also guiding itself towards its target."

When Horus is wounded, his condition is described as : "the fell weapon's toxins rendered even Horus' superhuman immune system powerless in the fight against them. His Larraman Cells were no longer functioning correctly, and so the open wound could not clot properly, causing Horus to bleed profusely"

We also know that Fulgrim had the weapon with him during his ascension on Ydris. It is therefore feasible he kept it afterwards.

Finally, in Guilliman's fluff/background : "Guilliman was poisoned by a wound to his neck made by his traitorous fellow Primarch's Chaos-tainted blades. The Primarch was put into temporal stasis on the verge of death and his body was placed upon the throne that lies in the Temple of Correction on the Ultramarines' homeworld of Macragge. Many pilgrims of the Imperial Cult travel across the galaxy every year to visit the temple and see the body of a Primarch, a blessed son of the God-Emperor himself. Some pilgrims claim that the grievous wound is slowly healing, though such an action should be physically impossible within an activated stasis field."


Regards,

Old-Four-Arms

inq.serge
30-08-2015, 12:57
Wasn't the Anathame broken down and turned into 8 daggers?

Old-Four-Arms
30-08-2015, 13:02
Wasn't the Anathame broken down and turned into 8 daggers?

The Athame were shards of the Anathame, but the original blade survived :

"Fulgrim later reclaimed the blade, but he allowed Erebus, the First Chaplain of the Word Bearers Legion, to strike eight shards from the Anathame just before the Battle of Calth and fashion them into the Chaos-tainted daggers known as Athame."

"Fulgrim ultimately brought the Anathame with him to Iydris, a Crone World at the heart of the Eye of Terror, and used it to ascend to daemonhood in accordance with the Eldar prophecy regarding the forbidden weapon known as the Angel Exterminatus."


Regards,

Old-Four-Arms