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EagleWarrior
31-07-2015, 18:37
So that happened. Warhammer Fantasy ended, and Warhammer age of Sigmar took its place. As a veteran of the game I find this extremely upsetting, a thing I've loved since primary school has been taken away and replaced by a poor shadow of what it was. From the comments here I know a lot of you feel the same way I do.

But think what it must be like for the people who work at Games Workshop. Lots of these people are also veterans and fans, people who love the games they play and have built their lives around them the same way we have. GW actively hires for people who care about the hobby after all.

For them, the termination of Warhammer Fantasy must be every bit as devastating as it was for us. Except for them, they not only cannot complain about AoS but have to get vocally behind it and enthusiastic about it. Their jobs depend on it. Yes, a few of them will like it, just as a few of us do, but a lot won't. Imagine how unpleasant it must be to be obliged to defend AoS and enthusiastic about it, regardless of your personal feelings about it.

So don't take your rage about AoS out on the poor redshirt telling you how great it is. They're probably as upset as you are and they're just doing their jobs.

Disposable Hero
31-07-2015, 18:42
I would assume most of them are rabid GW Fanboys and I think that these creatures have very thick skins.

But still..poor sods.

swordofglass
31-07-2015, 18:47
If they don't quit their jobs they are traitors!
I'm kidding, it would be horrible to have to peddle AoS and slap on a grin. Knowing that you're corrupting new players and lying to them to keep your job, yet you're trapped there.

rob451
31-07-2015, 18:53
From what I've heard from the big Managers meeting when the game was revealed to the store staff for the first time there was a lot of wailing and gnashing of teeth especially from the European branches where Fantasy was more popular than 40k.

It is safe to say that a lot of the store staff do not like this new game but are forced to sell it or else they lose their job (and therefore their 50% discount). The smart managers will keep letting players play 8th in store because they; unlike their corporate overlords, understand the local community is what drives sales.

Holier Than Thou
31-07-2015, 19:12
It was certainly the impression I got when I went in for some paints. I asked how popular AOS had been and the guy just went "Uuuuuuh, yeah. It's really popular. Yeah." The pitch of his voice went up a little and he just sounded like he was trying to convince himself more than anything.

thesoundofmusica
31-07-2015, 19:21
It was certainly the impression I got when I went in for some paints. I asked how popular AOS had been and the guy just went "Uuuuuuh, yeah. It's really popular. Yeah." The pitch of his voice went up a little and he just sounded like he was trying to convince himself more than anything.

Its in the eye of the beholder. You see AoS hate in everything :)

Holier Than Thou
31-07-2015, 19:24
Its in the eye of the beholder. You see AoS hate in everything :)

Likewise, you don't seem to be able to say a word against it.

thesoundofmusica
31-07-2015, 19:36
Likewise, you don't seem to be able to say a word against it.

I have plenty of times. But I dont turn everything I see around me into love of the game.

EagleWarrior
31-07-2015, 20:22
I applied for a job in my local store a few years back. I didn't end up going through with it, but all the interview questions were about enthusiasm and experience for the hobby and the games. They want people who are fans and care about games. Maybe some of them are care more about the company than the games but I think a lot will have their own opinions of games they have to defend and sell.

Skargit Crookfang
31-07-2015, 20:55
I feel terrible for a couple of the red shirts in my town. Really great guys, and they have been getting so much flak over this. We know it hasn't been selling well there, and the amount of "I TOLD YOU SO" lobbed at them is uncalled for. I have no love for AoS, but there is no need to chastise one of the employees for a decision that was not theirs to make.

Bede19025
31-07-2015, 20:59
Lots of these people are also veterans and fans, people who love the games they play and have built their lives around them the same way we have. .

I find this a bit disturbing.

Razhem
31-07-2015, 21:06
I expect quite a few of the poor guys to get sacked for not "completing with expected objectives"...

Holier Than Thou
31-07-2015, 21:19
I have plenty of times. But I dont turn everything I see around me into love of the game.

Have you? I haven't seen that, with the exception of one post where you said AOS has flaws but so did 8th. A lot of your other posts are accusing people of trolling or casually dismissing any criticism of GW or AOS.

thesoundofmusica
31-07-2015, 22:22
Have you? I haven't seen that, with the exception of one post where you said AOS has flaws but so did 8th. A lot of your other posts are accusing people of trolling or casually dismissing any criticism of GW or AOS.

I feel like I dont have to chime in on the critique, its all been said... over and over... every single day in thread after thread. And some people are most definately trolling. To say anything else shows a complete lack of objectivity.

Ludaman
31-07-2015, 22:30
I don't feel like any red shirts I've met in California in the last 5 years would even care. None of them played fantasy, almost every store I've visited around Southern California has been pretty much 40k only. They might actually be excited about AoS, space marines are wicked awesome man!

Handmaiden
31-07-2015, 22:49
To them the people they're selling AoS to kids and teens, werent playing fantasy anyway and the vets have their own gaming group and will still pay fantasy. That's how they rationalize it I'm sure. The European ones are different thow, if WHFB is the dominant game over there that would be a hard sell. A very hard sell.

Skargit Crookfang
31-07-2015, 22:58
To them the people they're selling AoS to kids and teens, werent playing fantasy anyway and the vets have their own gaming group and will still pay fantasy. That's how they rationalize it I'm sure. The European ones are different thow, if WHFB is the dominant game over there that would be a hard sell. A very hard sell.

And this is where the whole thing breaks down, seemingly. Basic idea of opportunity cost and limited disposable income:
How heavily are already 40k players reaaaaalllly going to invest in this?
Furthermore, if their hobby dollars are already slotted for 40k (among other games) extra disposable income doesn't just poof into existence.
As for getting a new, younger, crowd in... mom and dad will still be there, guarding the purse strings. If Timmy wants to get into one of these hobbies, it'll, very often, be one or the other (or neither, after his tantrum).
The immediate expectation that people on the 40k side will find more cash, that the WHFB crew will start spending more (yikes) and that the new players will take a barebones game (that was always a hard sell to them at its best) and rip them from all of their school mates playing 40k...ah... it...it just doesn't make sense.

How does this relate to the thread?
Because I know one such redshirt who has given this exact shpiel with regards to AoS. It's swimming upstream, while competing against oneself, while being in pitch black (information wise).

I feel bad for the good ones.

Coraxis
31-07-2015, 23:02
Some guy commented on my local GW store facebook page that the Stormcasts looked like space marines. The answer of the manager was "all the better". So yeah, I don't think many of them care too much about the end of WHF.

Denny
31-07-2015, 23:06
Some guy commented on my local GW store facebook page that the Stormcasts looked like space marines. The answer of the manager was "all the better". So yeah, I don't think many of them care too much about the end of WHF.

Or they care more about paying their bills.

Surely we've all had a job where we've had to push an agenda that we personally didn't agree with.

People have kids and stuff y'know.

Coraxis
31-07-2015, 23:09
I know, that's not what I mean. I understand them trying to sell the game, but not like this. He had not to answer like that to a customer. First of all I think is kind of disrespectful, and second not everybody love space marines so the death of WHF and the rise of the Stormcasts is "All the better". You have to sell the game, ok, but don't treat your costumers as if they were idiots. IMHO of course.

Vulgarsty
31-07-2015, 23:10
I do feel sorry for redshirts - OK they have done my head in over the years with their harrasment exacerbated by lack of uptake of social cues "just browsing mate", "I collect 3rd ed fimir" etc but mostly they are pretty genuine and a pay-freeze so that the Evil Empire can hand over a dividend to the management buy out shareholders that are leading them all to hell in a handcart exposes the ludicrous bilge from Rowntree about "most valuable assets" and his a pretty shameful kick in the teeth (yeah yeah, i know that's the market and that's how capitalism works - said the Russian royal family in 1917.....)

Frankly anyone who can shift that AoS drivel could sell snow to the Eskimos and should be paid their weight in emeralds.

The bearded one
31-07-2015, 23:16
On the one hand many may certainly be saddened themselves about WHFB's demise - though managers are allowed to decide for themselves whether to allow people to play fantasy in their stores or not. Some continue to allow it in the interests of their local community.

On the other hand staff does get a far easier job pitching AoS to potential new customers;
- Only need an absolutely minimal amount of models to get started (a character clampack and 1 unit box for example) instead of having to tell customers they can play a reasonable (small) game with 30+ models per side
- "You can find the rules for free on the website" instead of telling them "you just need to buy the big rulebook, and another book for your army"
- And they can explain the rules really quickly, as they're only 4 pages (2 of which are pretty much about setting up the table and selecting an army), instead of quickly trying to squeeze a simplified, understandable version of the game out of the actual 100+ page ruleset.

Skargit Crookfang
31-07-2015, 23:29
I do feel sorry for redshirts - OK they have done my head in over the years with their harrasment exacerbated by lack of uptake of social cues "just browsing mate", "I collect 3rd ed fimir" etc but mostly they are pretty genuine and a pay-freeze so that the Evil Empire can hand over a dividend to the management buy out shareholders that are leading them all to hell in a handcart exposes the ludicrous bilge from Rowntree about "most valuable assets" and his a pretty shameful kick in the teeth (yeah yeah, i know that's the market and that's how capitalism works - said the Russian royal family in 1917.....)

Frankly anyone who can shift that AoS drivel could sell snow to the Eskimos and should be paid their weight in emeralds.

That's the other thing- the pay freeze. And good of you to bring that up.

Your front line CSRs (customer service reps) are your gateway to customers. They need to be well trained, well informed and positive about their positions. For a game that, by their own admission, grows through brick and mortar (hence the actions taken against online retailers, by their logic), what are they actually doing to retain their best and brightest? Not everyone is going to enter into a trade or a professional designation, but giving those long term employees a carrot at the end of a stick will bring loyalty and excitement to a workforce- especially when coupled with empowerement through knowledge and groundfloor decision making.

It's bad enough that the reps were left in the dark on a product many do not believe in, but it's entirely another thing to have them sell a product they had no idea about, and then hit them in the wallet (not even looking to keep up with inflation).

This is a textbook way to lose some of your most important employees- your front line guys; the faces of the franchise.

Look at Ash from GMG and fomerly MWG. That dude is positive, upbeat and seems like someone who wants to chat, but not be overbearing. He worked for GW (hell, he sold me stuff at one of the Toronto locations, yeeeeears ago. What a great dude)... that's who you want. Does a lack of communication, a lack of tools or empowerment to deal with client protest and, what is essentially, and inflationary-based DECREASE in pay going to keep these folks?

Not. A. Chance.

I would LOVE the opportunity to look over their books and do a coporate, organizational philosophy and business practice restructuring to that company. They are blowing it, across the board, in so many obvious ways that it makes me drink... (more)...

Handmaiden
31-07-2015, 23:44
See in the 90's kids could get into warhammer because you could get things like ten beastmen http://collector-info.com/Manufacturer/GAW/GAWWFB/GAWWFBBM/IMG/GAWWFB%200738%20T3C4P%20-%20Chaos%20Beastmen%20%28Plastics%29%20B%20%5BBox% 5D%201A.jpg for only £5.

Now it's £60 ($100 US) for 10 basic sigmarines: http://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Skybolt-Hailstorm

(If you ask me, those Beastmen have way more fantasy charm than those Sigmarines)

Yeah for AoS you don't need that many to play a game, but kids and parents don't think that way. Everytime a child goes for sigmariness they are turning down a video game. When a parent sees £30 for 5 "army men" they understandably switch off.

WHFB vets mostly hate them as a microcosm of everything wrong with GW and can use their existing models anyway. 40k players already have this: https://s.yimg.com/fz/api/res/1.2/MIxKl_yGF9mDzLpbAZzjvA--/YXBwaWQ9c3JjaGRkO2g9NjI3O3E9OTU7dz04NzM-/http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-yo1gdZejydU/URK7GOBA-vI/AAAAAAAACxE/jSUSRVvz6qo/s1600/space+marine+assault+terminator+squad.jpg which blows sigmarines away for detail for slighty cheaper at £28.

So I'm not sure who AoS is really for. If you ask the average redshirt they'll say EVERYBODY! But that's just sales talk.

Gillburg
01-08-2015, 02:23
No staff actually play Fantasy they all play 40k so they think its a good thing fantasy was scrapped

EagleWarrior
01-08-2015, 12:41
Pretty much all the staff members I've met in the UK play both 40k and Fantasy and it's pretty much considered a requirement of the job by most managers I've spoken to. I've heard a few even play lord of the rings, although I'm yet to see it.

Kahadras
01-08-2015, 14:54
Pretty much all the staff members I've met in the UK play both 40k and Fantasy and it's pretty much considered a requirement of the job by most managers I've spoken to.

Certainly that used to be the case. I had a friend who went in for a job with GW years ago and was expected to know the rules for 40K, Warhammer and Specialist Games such as Necromunda and Bloodbowl. In fact the reason that they gave him for him not getting the job was that his knowledge of the specialist games range wasn't up to scratch.

Cèsar de Quart
01-08-2015, 15:22
Although I've found one that defends adamantly every bit of GW merchandise, most red and blackshirts I've found are just hobbyists. Some have told me where to look for bits in the Internet, some others have told me who sells the best and cheapest pre-6ht Ed minis on Ebay, and some even told me that the new line of plastic Perry miniatures are great for Empire conversions.

I too feel sorry for them, now they have to go to extreme lenghts to defend a game that was made a cash-grabber, and not a game.

MagicAngle
01-08-2015, 16:08
No staff actually play Fantasy they all play 40k so they think its a good thing fantasy was scrapped

Wow! You've been to every GW store in the world! That's amazing.

I guess my local store manager must have been lying to me when we I was last there discussing his DE army, as there's definitely no way that you were just making crap up and stating it as fact!

Galain
01-08-2015, 16:24
I would assume most of them are rabid GW Fanboys and I think that these creatures have very thick skins.

But still..poor sods.

I worked as a redshirt back in the late 00's, so I can't really attest to the current, 1-man store crowd. But for us, we were much more fans of the game than the company. The company was the one breathing up your ass to see if you hit goal (I goddamn hated minimum sales. Let a poor sod buy an ****** paint pot and leave without pressuring me to pressure HIM to get a box of whatever, too), the game was why you put up with the company. We enjoyed creating events, new scenery for the store, showing completely new people what the eff all this stuff was about, that sort of thing. We did NOT enjoy having to justify the latest price hike to our longsuffering veterans, especially since we couldn't justify it to ourselves. If AoS had come out when I was workingat GW, I would have quit. Here's my two weeks, I'm just going to push 40k, don't ask me to sell that abortion the company is trying to pass off as a game.

Unsurprisingly, none of the people I worked with are with GW anymore, and I heard they specifically stopped hiring hobbyists, possibly for the above reasons.


I applied for a job in my local store a few years back. I didn't end up going through with it, but all the interview questions were about enthusiasm and experience for the hobby and the games. They want people who are fans and care about games. Maybe some of them are care more about the company than the games but I think a lot will have their own opinions of games they have to defend and sell.

This was true for my interview as well (I had to bring in a Varghulf I had just painted for show and tell, talk about the armies I collected and planned on collecting, etc). But as I said above, I think I've heard that in the intervening time period GW has shifted away from taking in hobbyists.


On the one hand many may certainly be saddened themselves about WHFB's demise - though managers are allowed to decide for themselves whether to allow people to play fantasy in their stores or not. Some continue to allow it in the interests of their local community.

On the other hand staff does get a far easier job pitching AoS to potential new customers;
- Only need an absolutely minimal amount of models to get started (a character clampack and 1 unit box for example) instead of having to tell customers they can play a reasonable (small) game with 30+ models per side
- "You can find the rules for free on the website" instead of telling them "you just need to buy the big rulebook, and another book for your army"
- And they can explain the rules really quickly, as they're only 4 pages (2 of which are pretty much about setting up the table and selecting an army), instead of quickly trying to squeeze a simplified, understandable version of the game out of the actual 100+ page ruleset.

-This was never a difficult task. Starter sets (BfSP when I was there) were always a relatively easy sell; you got the rules you needed to play and a ton of models for a decent price. We just didn't tell them that was the only decent price they would find until after they were already emotionally invested. As my shift leader always used to say, "The first hit is free." Usually we'd just tell people to buy multiple starter sets and ebay or trade away the army they didn't want. Even better was when you had 2 people coming in who were going to split the boxes.
-See above. Rules were never a sticking point because the entry box had the rules anyways
-Whenever we ran demos, we had the Four Fs: Fast, Fun, Furious, and Fours.
Fast is straightforward: don't let the demo game drag. Keep the pace brisk and invigorating
Fun: Duh. keep the customer engaged, toss in wrinkles if they look bored, ham it up.
Furious: keep the intensity up. Be energetic, becuase if you're bored, they'll be bored.
Fours: everything happens on a 4+. To hit, to wound, everything. You shouldn't even be rolling armor saves. That's because the purpose of the demo game isn't teach the rules, it's to get the interest to be willing to learn the rules.

The bearded one
01-08-2015, 18:58
-This was never a difficult task. Starter sets (BfSP when I was there) were always a relatively easy sell; you got the rules you needed to play and a ton of models for a decent price. We just didn't tell them that was the only decent price they would find until after they were already emotionally invested. As my shift leader always used to say, "The first hit is free." Usually we'd just tell people to buy multiple starter sets and ebay or trade away the army they didn't want. Even better was when you had 2 people coming in who were going to split the boxes.
-See above. Rules were never a sticking point because the entry box had the rules anyways
-Whenever we ran demos, we had the Four Fs: Fast, Fun, Furious, and Fours.
Fast is straightforward: don't let the demo game drag. Keep the pace brisk and invigorating
Fun: Duh. keep the customer engaged, toss in wrinkles if they look bored, ham it up.
Furious: keep the intensity up. Be energetic, becuase if you're bored, they'll be bored.
Fours: everything happens on a 4+. To hit, to wound, everything. You shouldn't even be rolling armor saves. That's because the purpose of the demo game isn't teach the rules, it's to get the interest to be willing to learn the rules.

I would say that not-so-difficult-task became even easier. Staff doesn't need to spin facts anymore like in the ways you mention, or try to hide the unpleasant/expensive facets like needing armybooks and pretty large armies. AoS is practically built to facilitate an even easier sale, and AoS's handful of positives are all things staff sort of tried to replicate in their saleschat. I've seen more than enough demo's and the way staff demo'd fantasy was like two-thirds age of sigmar rules anyway. But staff isn't necessitated to steer the new customer to the starterset.

"What do you want little Timmy? Do you like the starterset?"
"- No I like those dinosaurs!"

Okay - perfectly fine. Get little Timmy his lizardmen, and he can play a game without delay - even against friends with far larger armies.


From what I've heard from staff potential new customers (especially kids) tended to go for 40k a lot more than fantasy. Maybe the impressively over the top vibe of the Sigmarines and the Khorne faction makes fantasy stand out a bit more as an alternative next to 40k's starterset with guns and vehicles.

Galain
01-08-2015, 19:48
I would say that not-so-difficult-task became even easier. Staff doesn't need to spin facts anymore like in the ways you mention, or try to hide the unpleasant/expensive facets like needing armybooks and pretty large armies. AoS is practically built to facilitate an even easier sale, and AoS's handful of positives are all things staff sort of tried to replicate in their saleschat. I've seen more than enough demo's and the way staff demo'd fantasy was like two-thirds age of sigmar rules anyway. But staff isn't necessitated to steer the new customer to the starterset.

"What do you want little Timmy? Do you like the starterset?"
"- No I like those dinosaurs!"

Okay - perfectly fine. Get little Timmy his lizardmen, and he can play a game without delay - even against friends with far larger armies.


From what I've heard from staff potential new customers (especially kids) tended to go for 40k a lot more than fantasy. Maybe the impressively over the top vibe of the Sigmarines and the Khorne faction makes fantasy stand out a bit more as an alternative next to 40k's starterset with guns and vehicles.

We never really "spun facts." We just didn't reveal how much of an investment the whole hobby was until after they were hooked on the game. Most of our Timmys were undaunted by the rules, after all it's not like the booklet that came with the starter set was all that big. And in terms of cost, it's not like Army books were ever the really expensive part of the hobby either. When it came to the little Timmys, it was the painting and assembling that was the hard sell. But once they've got a "battle" in with two fully painted armies going at it on a scenic board, that's when they were willing to get into this whole painting thing. And you could usually overcome mom and dad's sticker shock by showcasing the hobby side and convincing them that this was waaaay better than that latest game system they were thinking about.

And as a quick side note, I seriously doubt the Rule of Four changed for AoS. They're not going to be referring to unit scrolls or measuring from models or even doing proper Battleshock, I bet. As fast as you can get with 4 page rules + battlescrolls, you can get it faster with 1 sentence rules and no battlescrolls.

Ironically enough, what you're suggesting (go straight for the big fancy models) is about the worst way to get a Timmy started. As I said, getting a starter set and adding in glue, paints and whatnot generally ran to about the cost of a gaming system as it was. Usually, one of those big fancy models costs as much as the entire starter set, is far more complicated to assemble, is much more difficult for a beginning painter, and gives him no options: he's plonking that thing down every battle whether he wants to or not, because that's all he's got. Of course, he could always just buy more...but then that's cranking the screws even tighter on mommy and daddy. Trust me, that's not a good thing; I had this sweet little old grandmother looking to buy her grandson a present, and he was totally into the game, and when I got to the final price, she just belted out "OH JESUS CHRIST" and walked away. Had me and my other battle brother on duty in damn stitches, but we knew it was a legit reaction to how insane prices were even then.

40k is an easier sell to little kids because you can't make pew pew noises for bows, it required a lower model count, and marines and orks are easy as hell to paint. AoS tries with the lower model count, but stumbles on the facts that (as usual) outside of the reasonably priced starter set everything is a gorillion dollars AND the fact that Sigmarines, for all their terrible design are fairly detailed models that are much more challenging for beginner painters.

The bearded one
01-08-2015, 21:14
And as a quick side note, I seriously doubt the Rule of Four changed for AoS. They're not going to be referring to unit scrolls or measuring from models or even doing proper Battleshock, I bet. As fast as you can get with 4 page rules + battlescrolls, you can get it faster with 1 sentence rules and no battlescrolls.

Of course, but now if staff is doing the 'rule of fours', they're actually showcasing about 80-90% of the entire ruleset.


Ironically enough, what you're suggesting (go straight for the big fancy models) is about the worst way to get a Timmy started. As I said, getting a starter set and adding in glue, paints and whatnot generally ran to about the cost of a gaming system as it was. Usually, one of those big fancy models costs as much as the entire starter set, is far more complicated to assemble, is much more difficult for a beginning painter, and gives him no options: he's plonking that thing down every battle whether he wants to or not, because that's all he's got.

I wasn't so much thinking of a big dino, as I was of - say - a scar veteran clampack and a box of saurus. Of course if the customer (little timmy or an adult) was dead-set on starting with a large model, they can use it in a game straight away without restriction.



Seems to me AoS is designed to resemble the traditional salespitch as much as possible. Quick, easy, simple, take whichever models you ruddy darn want, the rules are free ("free" seems like a nice little bonus for goodwill to toss in alongside all these expensive products). The staffer could possibly also sell a gold spray alongside the Sigmarines to make it easy for them.

The sigmarines probably look like space marines (and have missiletroops with cannon-like crossbows) so that they can invoke the "pew pew"'ing.


Looping back to why I started debating this point; regardless of their personal feelings towards AoS I don't think staffers' jobs got tougher for it - AoS is littered with salespitch buzzwords ("quick!" "Simple!" "Free rules!" "Can play with as little as 1 model!")

Galain
01-08-2015, 21:31
Of course, but now if staff is doing the 'rule of fours', they're actually showcasing about 80-90% of the entire ruleset.

Fair enough, I suppose I was giving AoS far too much credit in the rules department.




I wasn't so much thinking of a big dino, as I was of - say - a scar veteran clampack and a box of saurus. Of course if the customer (little timmy or an adult) was dead-set on starting with a large model, they can use it in a game straight away without restriction.

Sorry, that's on me - given their druthers, those kinds of big fancypants models are always what the little Timmy's wanted. Part of our training was discerning between what the customer WANTED and what they NEEDED; little Timmy might WANT to just buy three Stegadons and call it a day, but you know he NEEDS smaller, simpler troops that are easier to assemble and paint + the hobby supplies he needs to assemble and paint in the first place!



Seems to me AoS is designed to resemble the traditional salespitch as much as possible. Quick, easy, simple, take whichever models you ruddy darn want, the rules are free ("free" seems like a nice little bonus for goodwill to toss in alongside all these expensive products). The staffer could possibly also sell a gold spray alongside the Sigmarines to make it easy for them.

The rules were always free if you bought the starter set. And in practice, "Take what you want" becomes first "Take what you can afford to buy" and then, later "Take what your opponents are willing to let you take." And again, if you're pushing the (relatively) cheap starter set (which you damn well should be because it's the closest thing to a deal those poor people are ever gonna see), you're not going to talk about freedom to take whatever you want, you're going to sell them on what comes in the box like you did with every other starter set you ever sold.

Also, good luck on selling mom and/or dad on a can of $30 spray paint right from the word go. That's one of those things you leave for later, when you know Timmy is going to put up a fight if mom and dad decides that maybe this new hobby is a wee bit too expensive for their tastes.


The sigmarines probably look like space marines (and have missiletroops with cannon-like crossbows) so that they can invoke the "pew pew"'ing.

I'm iffy on whether or not the crossbolters will carry the pew pew factor, but I'm no longer 11 nor do I have an 11-year-old handy for reference, so I'll certainly acknowledge that could be the case. ;)

Deadhorse
01-08-2015, 21:59
3 comments to the above posts

One - the rule of four is the only viable way I can think of to balance age of sigmar. Just do all rolls as 4+ and ignore all other rules. Models have one wound each. Suddenly, even sudden death works fine!

Two - to be honest, if a kid is really into miniatures (i.e. does not throw all purchases into a pile of unglued plastic lying in a corner somewhere), but actually puts them together and plays with friends, I'd say they are not a horrible investment from a parent's perspective. Well, maybe they reached that "horrible" level about now with the witch elf/sigmarine price treshold, but they didn't use to be. A fantasy or 40k army is simply time better spent than, say, 10 console games. IF the kid keeps at it. If not... well, don't buy anything until the starter is fully painted :)

Three - For ages I thought that guns sell better to kids than crossbows do, and fantasy should not be an "introductory" game, but the more sophisticated game. So AoS seems like a crazy idea, because kids will like space marines more than sigmarines anyway. And parents will probably like space marine prices better, too.

Galain
01-08-2015, 22:14
to be honest, if a kid is really into miniatures (i.e. does not throw all purchases into a pile of unglued plastic lying in a corner somewhere), but actually puts them together and plays with friends, I'd say they are not a horrible investment from a parent's perspective.

That's absolutely the truth, and a goodly portion of how we would market the hobby to parents. Something that teaches artistry, patience, and dedication over instant gratification? I'd be worried for the kid's future if that DIDN'T sound tempting to their parents. There's a reason so many parents have been willing to open their wallets for such an expensive and time-consuming hobby.


Well, maybe they reached that "horrible" level about now with the witch elf/sigmarine price treshold, but they didn't use to be. A fantasy or 40k army is simply time better spent than, say, 10 console games. IF the kid keeps at it. If not... well, don't buy anything until the starter is fully painted :)

Well, as with any hobby the higher you price things, the more people your price out. Parents like the idea of the hobby more often than not, but they're (mostly) not stupid; they know this hobby is going to be a time investment for themselves because they'll need to make sure Timmy works in a ventilated area, isn't gluing his head to the desk, and will probably need an adult to properly prime the models....it's work. Starter kits were always a way to mitigate that; they're the simplest models to assemble and paint which lets Timmy play games while learning more advanced stuff. We used to run an academy for hobbyists in our stores with exactly this in mind; keeping them invested and training them on how to grow their hobby so that they could manage well enough on their own. I imagine that's not an option anymore what with the 1-man stores. You could try to arrange for your hobby veterans to handle things, but GW just royally pissed off 80% of those, sooooo...yeah.


Three - For ages I thought that guns sell better to kids than crossbows do, and fantasy should not be an "introductory" game, but the more sophisticated game. So AoS seems like a crazy idea, because kids will like space marines more than sigmarines anyway. And parents will probably like space marine prices better, too.

That is a thing I'd worry about too: if a kid like the crossbolters because they look like guns, why wouldn't he just buy the models with actual guns? Isn't games "cannibalizing sales" from other GW games exactly why GW kept scrapping Specialist Games? Why is it a good thing all of a sudden to try and get 40k people to spend their money on a different GW product when they were already buying into 40k?

Philhelm
01-08-2015, 22:23
From what I've heard from staff potential new customers (especially kids) tended to go for 40k a lot more than fantasy. Maybe the impressively over the top vibe of the Sigmarines and the Khorne faction makes fantasy stand out a bit more as an alternative next to 40k's starterset with guns and vehicles.

Honestly, I think that a lot of children and adolescents are underestimated when it comes to these conversations. I was fourteen when I started Warhammer Fantasy, and my favorite models were the Reiksguard foot knights, and I purchased a load of Empire halberdiers (30-man "Regiment of Altdorf" - sadly missed).

Philhelm
01-08-2015, 22:24
From what I've heard from staff potential new customers (especially kids) tended to go for 40k a lot more than fantasy. Maybe the impressively over the top vibe of the Sigmarines and the Khorne faction makes fantasy stand out a bit more as an alternative next to 40k's starterset with guns and vehicles.

Honestly, I think that a lot of children and adolescents are underestimated when it comes to these conversations. I was fourteen when I started Warhammer Fantasy, and my favorite models were the Reiksguard foot knights, and I purchased a load of Empire halberdiers (30-man "Regiment of Altdorf" - sadly missed).

Abaraxas
02-08-2015, 04:18
I feel terrible for a couple of the red shirts in my town. Really great guys, and they have been getting so much flak over this. We know it hasn't been selling well there, and the amount of "I TOLD YOU SO" lobbed at them is uncalled for. I have no love for AoS, but there is no need to chastise one of the employees for a decision that was not theirs to make.

It's like going into McDonalds and berating the kid behind the counter over the size or cost of the Big Mac these days.

Losing Command
02-08-2015, 07:49
GW employees are probably the biggest losers in this whole situation. We can pick up AoS if we like it or just leave and go to a different wargame. They have to force themselves to smile, try to push this down people's throat or lose their job. I sure am glad I'm not a GW employee right now.

Greyshadow
02-08-2015, 09:08
Yeah, GW senior management are pretty rough on their own staff. It is quite a cut throat game they are in. My local is run by a great manager. He is passionate but relaxed and friendly. When I am interested in a product he highlights the positives, encourageing but not pushing sales. I respect that. He has almost completed painting his store copy of AoS and all the scenery as well to a high standard. If GW or any customers gave him a hard time over AoS I would be quite angry about that.

babylonia
02-08-2015, 09:52
I have no sympathy for the GW store staff. Every single time I visited their stores, I was pounced upon and was given the hard sell. They weren't interested in my gaming needs, all they wanted was to make a sale. I stopped visiting GW stores in the end because of their pathetic and unhelpful behaviour. I for one will not miss GW on the high street.

Holier Than Thou
02-08-2015, 10:04
I have no sympathy for the GW store staff. Every single time I visited their stores, I was pounced upon and was given the hard sell. They weren't interested in my gaming needs, all they wanted was to make a sale. I stopped visiting GW stores in the end because of their pathetic and unhelpful behaviour. I for one will not miss GW on the high street.

I do and I don't. I experienced the same as you, being pounced on as soon as you crossed the front door and, yes, it was/is annoying. However, I've also had my fair share of dreadful jobs where you are under constant pressure and scrutiny from the powers-that-be to sell, sell, sell and where, quite often, you had a script that you had to stick to. All in all, it makes for a very sterile, fake-friendliness that rubs most people up the wrong way. Unfortunately, the people that decide on how staff should interact with customers rarely see this in action in real life and so think it's a winning formula.

Handmaiden
02-08-2015, 13:08
Ah you haven't had them try to sell you two £17 gold sprays, and tell you not to "take the mick" out of AoS. Last month was my final purchase. Yesterday they told me about a dwarf with fire for a beard. It's a kids cartoon. Back in the 90's, the staff weren't always "on" in the sense that you could feel they weren't trying to constantly sell you something. They weren't so fake. My army is almost at completion and can be done with non GW models (just 5 more dark riders). I have WHFB 8th ed gaming group and a lifelong friend who's army is just as large as mine. I'm just going to watch the downfall of GW from the sidelines now and try the odd game of AoS without spending a penny.

Galain
03-08-2015, 07:04
GW employees are probably the biggest losers in this whole situation. We can pick up AoS if we like it or just leave and go to a different wargame. They have to force themselves to smile, try to push this down people's throat or lose their job. I sure am glad I'm not a GW employee right now.

While this is true, keep in mind that no one is holding a gun to the employees heads, either. When GW got too unbearable for me to work for, I quit. The same option exists for them. Very few people can claim that there is absolutely no other job that they can work at, especially when GW hardly pays a living salary AND is freezing pay raises. As time goes on, I expect the employees with either an ounce of talent at sales or an ounce of love for the IPs/games/hobby to jump ship before the ship jumps them.

The ones that will be left will be the ones who either honestly believe the claptrap GW is putting forth or just don't care and are looking for a paycheck. I don't feel any sympathy for either type.

EagleWarrior
03-08-2015, 12:26
I've also had my fair share of dreadful jobs where you are under constant pressure and scrutiny from the powers-that-be to sell, sell, sell and where, quite often, you had a script that you had to stick to. All in all, it makes for a very sterile, fake-friendliness that rubs most people up the wrong way. Unfortunately, the people that decide on how staff should interact with customers rarely see this in action in real life and so think it's a winning formula.

I find it very strange that this sort of thing happens. If I found myself in a management positions making decisions on how front line people should behave, the first thing I would do is go and talk to a bunch of them to get a representative sample of what things are like. It seems like just getting the basic information on how to do the job. So often you get companies where the people at the bottom know exactly what is going wrong, but the people at the top don't know because they don't ask. Management does need to make the final decision because they know all the strategic priorities and so-fourth but cutting yourself off from a readily available source of critical information just seems a bit stupid.

Kallstrom
03-08-2015, 15:59
[...] they'll need to make sure Timmy works in a ventilated area, isn't gluing his head to the desk, and will probably need an adult to properly prime the models....it's work.

Hahah, if I had a kid that glued his head to his desk I would let him stay there.
I think Darwin actually wrote that as an example when he described his philosophy. If little Timmy can't handle his **** then he is out of luck.