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Lordmonkey
02-08-2015, 19:57
I know it's beardier than a giant bearded bird with a big beardy magic stick, but is it possible to chain-summon infinite Lords of Change (Lord of Changes?) in a single turn?


Turn 1 Hero phase, have your LoC summon another LoC.
Put new LoC down in front of your opponents army (9" away).
With newly summoned LoC, cast Infernal Gateway on enemy unit.
With newly summoned LoC, cast summon LoC.
See 2.


Is there anything missing from this theory? Any (paper and ink) rules being broken?

thesoundofmusica
02-08-2015, 20:02
Infinite? I dont think so. But honestly I dont know the math. And besides... is it really worth buying, building and painting all those LoCs just to have nobody play you ;)

Lordmonkey
02-08-2015, 20:39
Oh don't get me wrong, i'd never do this. This is more just to exercise my understanding of the rules (such that they are).

KalEf
03-08-2015, 03:32
wow!? I too am interested in knowing if this is the case... It makes the "rules" even more of a not so funny joke. And I do have multiples of most greater daemons.

Neckutter
03-08-2015, 03:40
Yep. It's perfectly within the rules, it's one of the things that you discuss with your opponent "hey, mr opponent, let's not summon infinite armies, ok?"

sturguard
03-08-2015, 04:05
Shame you need to.

KalEf
03-08-2015, 04:52
Shame you need to.

I hear its un-fluffy to have your lord of change do anything strategic or attempt to win anyway ;) I'm going to go vomit now

furrie
03-08-2015, 08:12
I know it's beardier than a giant bearded bird with a big beardy magic stick, but is it possible to chain-summon infinite Lords of Change (Lord of Changes?) in a single turn?


Turn 1 Hero phase, have your LoC summon another LoC.
Put new LoC down in front of your opponents army (9" away).
With newly summoned LoC, cast Infernal Gateway on enemy unit.
With newly summoned LoC, cast summon LoC.
See 2.


Is there anything missing from this theory? Any (paper and ink) rules being broken?

rule wise there is nothing preventing you to do so(as long as you don't fail a single cast), but I would swap 3 & 4 just incase you fail to cast summon LoC, so you can summon a herald of tzeentch and let him summon a LoC again.

Aezeal
09-08-2015, 19:46
You should check my post on Bell of lost souls about this...

let me just tell you: with blue scribes it will even boost your chances.

RattrapKilo
03-09-2015, 01:35
Tzeentch armies bring summoning to a whole new level of cheesy. Realistically, the only limit would be your model collection and casting rolls.

hopkins
03-09-2015, 09:40
Realistically, the only limit would be your model collection and casting rolls.

and your opponent's patience and good nature

Spiney Norman
04-09-2015, 21:04
"Infinite" seems unlikely, the way the mastery of magic rule works you effectively need to get a 5+ on either of your 2D6 to successfully summon a LoC (casting value 9+), which if my maths is right is around 60% of the time. All things considered it's probably slightly easier to chain-summon horrors, but you could do very nasty things with a summoned LoC that summoned a unit of horrors and another LoC creating an exponentially expanding chain.

However in the era of AoS when we find something that is so badly designed it breaks he game the accepted solution is to ignore it and pretend you haven't discovered it, rather than petition GW to plug the leaks in their game because we all ow beyond any shadow of a doubt that they won't do it because they just don't care.

thesoundofmusica
04-09-2015, 21:41
I hear what you're saying but in reality few (if any) will have the needed models anyways so it's really hard for me to work up a fury over something like this...

Dosiere
05-09-2015, 04:33
I fail to see how chain summoning matters in a game with no balance to begin with. Why would anyone be upset if you actually had 10 LoC models and summoned them all? Seems to be perfectly legal and entirely within the spirit of AoS by telling an interesting story.

If you are going for balance summoning should be completely banned at this point anyway, trying to argue at what point it's not ok is going tone different in every game. Either embrace the rules as written or change them, but don't hold back just because your opponent is a WAAC player that can't handle losing even a game AoS.

Xaric
05-09-2015, 07:10
I guess you could say LoC is what Loki is to the avengers :D

CrownAxe
05-09-2015, 12:37
If you want actual infinite summoning you do it with a Herald of Tzeentch. Just use Arcane Tome so that "Summon Herald of Tzeentch"s 5 to cast is on 3d6 giving you a 98% success rate. Then the new Herald just repeats the process. The worst part is when ever you roll a 9+ (which on 3d6 is pretty likely) you get to cast a 2nd time (a different spell mind you) which can be another summon spell like a Disc Herald so that you have another Ancient Tome to summon another Foot Herald for redundancy but can also be Mystic Shield or Arcane Bolt.

Also Dosiere the reason infinite summoning is broken is because you can use it to get a Sudden Victory condition while having an army larger then your opponent

Dosiere
06-09-2015, 18:34
If you want actual infinite summoning you do it with a Herald of Tzeentch. Just use Arcane Tome so that "Summon Herald of Tzeentch"s 5 to cast is on 3d6 giving you a 98% success rate. Then the new Herald just repeats the process. The worst part is when ever you roll a 9+ (which on 3d6 is pretty likely) you get to cast a 2nd time (a different spell mind you) which can be another summon spell like a Disc Herald so that you have another Ancient Tome to summon another Foot Herald for redundancy but can also be Mystic Shield or Arcane Bolt.

Also Dosiere the reason infinite summoning is broken is because you can use it to get a Sudden Victory condition while having an army larger then your opponent

But you can easily get a Sudden Death condition despite having a much more powerful force even without summoning, just by using more powerful models in the first place. I get that summoning only exacerbates the problem of balance but its not like there was great balance to begin with. Arguing that summoning in AoS creates balance issues assumes we are talking about a game that was reasonably balanced before you added summoning in, which it's not. If anything your point highlights that the Sudden Death conditions are broken or more broken than summoning.

The situation you describe in a competitive game would seem to be unintentionally broken or a case of rules lawyering to create an "unfair" advantage. In AoS it doesn't really change the nature of the game at all, since the game doesn't care about balance or relative power levels in the first place. So I don't think it's broken per se, it's just the way AoS is meant to be played.

Spiney Norman
06-09-2015, 20:16
But you can easily get a Sudden Death condition despite having a much more powerful force even without summoning, just by using more powerful models in the first place. I get that summoning only exacerbates the problem of balance but its not like there was great balance to begin with. Arguing that summoning in AoS creates balance issues assumes we are talking about a game that was reasonably balanced before you added summoning in, which it's not. If anything your point highlights that the Sudden Death conditions are broken or more broken than summoning.

The situation you describe in a competitive game would seem to be unintentionally broken or a case of rules lawyering to create an "unfair" advantage. In AoS it doesn't really change the nature of the game at all, since the game doesn't care about balance or relative power levels in the first place. So I don't think it's broken per se, it's just the way AoS is meant to be played.

Are you defending the summoning mechanic by saying that AoS is so broken to begin with that jumping up and down on the pieces becomes rather irrelevant? In other words the game is so crap already that things that make it more crap are simply irrelevant?

I suppose that is true, but it's not a very constructive argument ;)

The point remains that if you are going to try and fix AoS to make it playable as a game you need to find some way of addressing summoning.

Dosiere
07-09-2015, 18:20
Are you defending the summoning mechanic by saying that AoS is so broken to begin with that jumping up and down on the pieces becomes rather irrelevant? In other words the game is so crap already that things that make it more crap are simply irrelevant?

I suppose that is true, but it's not a very constructive argument ;)

The point remains that if you are going to try and fix AoS to make it playable as a game you need to find some way of addressing summoning.

Sort of. My point is that balance is not a design feature of AoS. It's not broken it's just not there to begin with. AoS is designed for gamers who do not care about balance, from the ground all the way up.

Look at it this way - the lack of balancing mechanics is actually seen as a design feature by those who like the game. It was intentionally designed to NOT be balanced, at all.

You are assuming that the designers meant it to be balanced in some fashion but failed to achieve that goal. I am assuming that they set out to intentionally create a lack of balance, and succeeded.

Lord Dan
11-09-2015, 17:43
Are you defending the summoning mechanic by saying that AoS is so broken to begin with that jumping up and down on the pieces becomes rather irrelevant?
Yes, exactly.

Spiney Norman
11-09-2015, 19:56
Sort of. My point is that balance is not a design feature of AoS. It's not broken it's just not there to begin with. AoS is designed for gamers who do not care about balance, from the ground all the way up.

Look at it this way - the lack of balancing mechanics is actually seen as a design feature by those who like the game. It was intentionally designed to NOT be balanced, at all.

You are assuming that the designers meant it to be balanced in some fashion but failed to achieve that goal. I am assuming that they set out to intentionally create a lack of balance, and succeeded.

I don't assume anything about the intent of the authors, whether they achieved or failed their goals is irrelevant to me, and I'm quite prepared to believe that they intentionally created an imbalanced game so they don't have to spend the time/resources play testing the balance and can avoid moaning from players about how OP/UP unit x is. However for a game to be worth playing it needs a way to balance the two forces playing.

If, hypothetically a person wanted to create a comp pack for AoS (as several already have done) they will need to address summoning at some stage because even if you create an accurate points value system to balance the game, summoning would destroy that in a couple of spells.

Lordmonkey
12-09-2015, 01:02
I don't assume anything about the intent of the authors, whether they achieved or failed their goals is irrelevant to me, and I'm quite prepared to believe that they intentionally created an imbalanced game so they don't have to spend the time/resources play testing the balance and can avoid moaning from players about how OP/UP unit x is. However for a game to be worth playing it needs a way to balance the two forces playing.

If, hypothetically a person wanted to create a comp pack for AoS (as several already have done) they will need to address summoning at some stage because even if you create an accurate points value system to balance the game, summoning would destroy that in a couple of spells.

Agreed. Although I think some of the warscrolls would need some errata/changes/nerfs aswell to prevent stupid stuff like the topic of this thread.

Dosiere
12-09-2015, 20:38
Again, you are assuming that the game should be or needs to be balanced. To those who are enjoying AoS right now balance is clearly NoT required as you claim. From that perspective there is nothing wrong with summoning.

Just because you don't like the way AoS works doesn't mean it's broken. Broken implies something is not working as intended. Summoning seems to work just as intended, just like sudden death, using model count for victory conditions, and model to model measuring.

You dislike it, understood. I hate racing games but love a good strategy game, but that doesn't mean they need to or should change a racing game because other people like strategy games. Instead maybe I should just play strategy games rather than try to make a racing simulator act like a strategy game. If balance is truly that important to your enjoyment of a game, why are you playing AoS in the first place?

Voss
13-09-2015, 19:35
Except your analogies are terrible. AoS is a strategy game, and needs to be held to the standards of such. And you can use a hammer to open letters, if you like, using it for something unintended doesn't break the hammer.

Intention means nothing. What matters if it works well.

Aezeal
13-09-2015, 21:36
Dosiere that was such a piece of crap post.

We are playing AoS foremost because we have a 1000+ E army for warhammer. We have that army because we played a balanced (somewhat) strategy game. Its not a stretch to assume we still like balanced stratagy games. It's perfectly valid to assume the army building and summoning part of AoS broken.

(I'm going for http://www.scrollbuilder.com/ next game Voss, not sure yet about which comp I'll take for summoning).

Dosiere
14-09-2015, 01:50
How you think AoS is a strategy game I don't understand, it fails at almost every level if you expect balance.

Aezeal
14-09-2015, 18:02
I bought the models I have to play a strategy game. I will comp AoS till itīs suitable as a strategy game (playing wounds or a comp and not playing mass summoning is enough to make the game fun for me). The AoS rules are good enough to play fun games once the armies are balanced.

Dosiere
15-09-2015, 04:57
Fair enough, but I was talking about the game RAW, as you well knew. Calling my post a "piece of crap" on a rules forum (which is designed to talk about the official rules, ie RAW) based on your (unknown to me) desire to play AoS + Aezeal comp rules is not really fair.

Since neither you or Voss are playing the game even close to RAW, we aren't even talking about the same game anyway. Calm down.