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Spiney Norman
19-08-2015, 21:52
I'm playing a game tomorrow night I will be playing against the Khorne Bloodbound Goretide models from the starter
Mighty Lord of Khorne,
Bloodsecrator
Bloodstoker
Khorgorath
5 Blood Warriors
20 Bloodreavers

My opponent has suggested I use one of the batallion warscrolls from the legacy scrolls so I'm intending to bring the Great Moonclan Night goblins.

I'm thinking along the lines of
Night Goblin Warboss on Great Cave Squig
Night Goblin Shaman

10 Night Goblins with bows
10 Night Goblins with stabba & shield
20 Night Goblins with spear & shield
One unit of 3 Fanatics
Mangler Squig

Is that too much? Should I shed a fanatic or reduce the spear goblins down to 10?
Is the mangler a bit much for a game this size (it seems to be a little better than the Khorgorath, though not by much), should I swap it out for some Squig hoppers?

Vladyhell
19-08-2015, 22:10
It's not about what we think is right it's about what you think you'll need to give em a good whackin(without being a douche) and if what you have there is what you think you can whack him with then go with what you've chosen :)

But sounds a good matchup,let us know how it goes

Spiney Norman
19-08-2015, 22:18
It's not about what we think is right it's about what you think you'll need to give em a good whackin(without being a douche) and if what you have there is what you think you can whack him with then go with what you've chosen :)

But sounds a good matchup,let us know how it goes

I've asked for input because my experience with AoS so far is quite limited and I'm not confident in 'eyeballing forces' yet. I was hoping the folks that have AoS working well would be able to advise.

Vladyhell
19-08-2015, 22:29
tbh it's very hard to gauge as the way the game plays out is different every time with the roll off for turn sequence but the game gives you plenty chances to win even with a smaller force(without sudden death) and I've found that games are always close.One player may have the upper hand but it never seems like a lost cause if your clever with movement and your chargers or you get an early 2 turns in a row.

I'd just take what you have and play it out

Spiney Norman
19-08-2015, 22:57
I'm aware that I've given away sudden death with the proposed set up, I need to get down to 38 models to avoid that so maybe

Warboss on Squig
Shaman

10 NG with bow
10 NG with spear
10 NG with stabba
Manglers
3 Fanatics

That puts me at 36

I've seen sudden death abused quite badly at my local venue, but I'm not sure he has the tools to do it just with the Goretide (no hellcannons will be in attendance ;))

How much of a big deal will it be to give away SD with lists like this do you think?

Vladyhell
19-08-2015, 23:17
Had to read the orc n goblin pdf :)

I'd probably drop the the bows and take 20 stabba's to shield the 10 spears. keep your shaman in the middle of it so he can't be hit....coming up with neat formations is so fun...and either mystic shield the stabba's or try take out his single model hard hitters with his unique spell.

Spiney Norman
19-08-2015, 23:19
Had to read the orc n goblin pdf :)

I'd probably drop the the bows and take 20 stabba's to shield the 10 spears. keep your shaman in the middle of it so he can't be hit....coming up with neat formations is so fun...and either mystic shield the stabba's or try take out his single model hard hitters with his unique spell.

Note that I have to take three NG units for the batallion scroll, do you mean no archers and take two units of stabbas?

Vladyhell
19-08-2015, 23:24
Honestly archers are pants,better with 2 stabbas than 1 stabba and 1 archer

Vladyhell
19-08-2015, 23:38
deploy them something like the pic. 1 unit spread out at front with other 2 units behind.

Gorthor21
20-08-2015, 00:38
you could add 8 or 9 more models and still not risk sudden death. a unit of each kind should suffice.
the squig boss
shaman
12 bows
12 spears
15 stabbas
2 or 3 fanatics(noy sold on how good they are but still funny)
mangler squigs

the mangler squigs arnt that overpowering

Spiney Norman
21-08-2015, 00:40
I ended up going with

Squigboss
Shaman
Mangler squigs
10 NGs w/ spears
10 NGs w/ stabbas
10 NGs w/ stabbas
3 Fanatics

A brief battle report

Khorne deployment
The blood reavers deployed in the centre with the blood warriors on their left flank and the Khorgorath, blood stoker and Lord of Khorne on their right. The bloodsecrator deployed at he back, behind the blood warriors.

Moonclan Deployment
The Night goblins deployed in three units, ten abreast, one unit directly behind the other in three lines (spears at the back), the front unit contained the fanatics. The shaman deployed behind the night goblin units and the Warboss and mangler squigs deployed on the left, directly opposite the Khorgorath.

T1
Khorne won the roll off for first turn and surged forward, pretty much the entire force ran
In the Goblin turn the Warboss cast inspiring presence on the goblin unit containing the fanatics, the shaman successfully cast curse of the bad moon on the blood warriors, killing one of them, and successfully inflicting a further two mortal wounds on both the blood reavers and the bloodsecrator who were both in range of the spell.

In the movement phase the mangler Squig and a Warboss bounced forward, the three goblin units ran forward and the shaman hung back.

In the charge phase the front goblin unit deployed the fanatics, the Warboss, mangler squigs and fanatics all declared a charge against the blood reavers, the fanatics failed on a double 1.

Between them, the mangler squigs and Warboss managed to kill 14 of the blood reavers, plus the two killed by magic earlier in the turn meant the unit was wiped out by battle shock.

T2
The Moonclaw won the roll off for T2 and elected to go first.

The Warboss used his command ability 'Even more boingy' and the shaman cast his spell on the blood warriors. He did only one wound this time but also managed to inflict two further wounds on the bloodsecrator.

In the movement phase the night goblin units moved towards the blood warriors, the Warboss and mangler squigs moved towards the Khorgorath

In the charge phase two of the NG units charged the blood warriors, the fanatics charged the bloodsecrator while the mangler squigs and Warboss both charged the Khorgorath. The fanatics ended the bloodsecrator before the Khorgorath tried to stop the rampaging mangler squigs but only managed to inflict two wounds. The night goblins attacked the blood warriors finishing off the injured one and killing another. They lost two of their number to the attacks back. The night goblin spear unit piled in and killed another blood warrior (leaving just the champion) and the Manglers and Warboss together finished off the Khorgorath.

The blood warriors passed their battle shock and it was Khorne T2

The Lord of Khorne and blood stoker charged the Warboss and mangler squigs, the Lord of Khorne managed to inflict a colossal five wounds on the Manglers while the blood stoker managed to put one wound on the Warboss. In response the mangler Squig wounded the Khorne Lord four times and the Warboss finished him off, the reality-splitting axe failing to put the Manglers out of their misery.

The night goblins finally brought down the last blood warrior between them, losing only one goblin to his attacks.

At the end of turn 2 only the Bloodstoker remained on the Khorne side, the total casualty count for the goblin side was three night goblins.

All things considered, while the forces appeared to be reasonably well balanced at the outset the game was a complete landslide in the favour of the goblins despite a having their share of dodgy dice moments (the fanatics failed charge in T1). After the blood reavers vanished in a single turn of combat the outcome of the game was never really in any doubt and I find myself again wondering why people even play this game.

It is probably fair to speculate that the 'open and shut' outcome of the game may have been more to do with the goblins getting the double turn at a crucial point in the game, but the fact is this is going to happen 50% of the time, it's not by any means a freak occurance and points toward ill-conceived and poorly thought through game design.

Gorthor21
21-08-2015, 03:20
was this your first game of aos? im going to say you did get really lucky that you so thoroughly beat him. it would seem lucky magic and two good first turns are what sealed the victory. were you using terrain or objectives? or was it a straight up brawl?

Spiney Norman
21-08-2015, 08:10
was this your first game of aos? im going to say you did get really lucky that you so thoroughly beat him. it would seem lucky magic and two good first turns are what sealed the victory. were you using terrain or objectives? or was it a straight up brawl?

We had quite a lot of terrain scattered around, though we didn't use objectives this time (neither of us has bought the books with the battle plans in yet). I don't think magic was that lucky, the spell needs an 8 to cast and the NG shaman has +2 to cast from his magic mushrooms so a 6+ roll isn't that hard to make.

I've played half a dozen games now and they've all been more or less like this, not as bad as my first game which was a complete disaster (warriors of chaos vs my tomb kings), the other games I have played have been the starter set scenarios, and while they did feel more balanced I still feel a little like too much depends on the priority rolls, taking two turns in a row is absolutely brutal.

Spiney Norman
21-08-2015, 09:07
For those who are are interested, here are some pics of the game in progress

Moonclan deployment
218843

The fanatics failed charge
218842

The mighty Lord of Khorne falls to the even mightier Night Goblin Warboss in the end game
218841

And below (for some reason) the blood warriors are swamped by Goblins on the right flank.

thesoundofmusica
21-08-2015, 10:23
Going first he should know that there is no chance he will get two consecutive turns in the first 2 turns while you might and plan accordingly. Also maybe he should support his units abit better, waiting for your charge he should have a tight formation that allows pile-ins from his supporting units when you charge him. I cant tell for sure by the pictures but by the sound of it he rushed forward rather brashly.

Edit: Of course he lost, unpainted armies do that ;)

Table looks nice as do the goblins.

Spiney Norman
21-08-2015, 10:38
Going first he should know that there is no chance he will get two consecutive turns in the first 2 turns while you might and plan accordingly. Also maybe he should support his units abit better, waiting for your charge he should have a tight formation that allows pile-ins from his supporting units when you charge him. I cant tell for sure by the pictures but by the sound of it he rushed forward rather brashly.

Edit: Of course he lost, unpainted armies do that ;)

Sheer blind luck might be part of it I guess, this was something like my fifth game, and only his second so in game experience is in rather short supply for both of us, though I think he going for 'Khorne *rage* charge!'. I personally don't stipulate that my opponent's army has to be painted, though I do try and hold myself to that standard where possible despite the fact that my painting pace is glacial (most of these night goblins were painted during 7th edition, with the notable exception of the Manglers).

All in all I think the most entertaining part about the game was trying to explain to people walking through why I was wearing my hood up whilst playing a tabletop game, most of them hadn't looked very closely at AoS before and thought I was joking when I said it was in the rules for my army.

Gorthor21
21-08-2015, 12:29
your friend has the goreblade warband from the big rulebook which has if a unit had a successful charge from his army that turn he can reroll charges for the rest of his units and if a unit was completely whipped out he can add 1 attack to all the rest of his units for the rest of that combat phase. idk if that's in the starter set but atleast its something. he can also take those bloodreavers in any size units so 3 guys getting whipped out could help the rest of his army get 2-3 attacks per model. the bonuses the battalion scrolls give really help as a balancing act sometimes.

Spiney Norman
21-08-2015, 12:58
your friend has the goreblade warband from the big rulebook which has if a unit had a successful charge from his army that turn he can reroll charges for the rest of his units and if a unit was completely whipped out he can add 1 attack to all the rest of his units for the rest of that combat phase. idk if that's in the starter set but atleast its something. he can also take those bloodreavers in any size units so 3 guys getting whipped out could help the rest of his army get 2-3 attacks per model. the bonuses the battalion scrolls give really help as a balancing act sometimes.

We were using the batallion warscrolls, unfortunately he didn't get much use out of his because he only made two charges in the whole game (the blood stoker and Lord on his T2) and because the blood reavers died to battle shock there was no bonus attacks from them. As I recall he did get to claim some bonus attacks when I killed the bloodsecrator but the only unit to benefit were his blood warriors and they were suffering a -1 to hit vs my goblins because of their nets.

Bizarre as it sounds night goblins are pretty harsh in AoS, a unit of 30 will wound on a 2+ in combat, they benefit from -1 to hit against them because of their nets and their shields give them a 5+ save.

Gorthor21
21-08-2015, 13:10
it seems alot of units that were undervalued in fantasy got that treatment on aos. just look at tomb kings. getting the initiative in games has become imperative i suppose, makes things like the coven throne or rerolling any dice like fateweaver all the more important.

Spiney Norman
21-08-2015, 13:42
it seems alot of units that were undervalued in fantasy got that treatment on aos. just look at tomb kings. getting the initiative in games has become imperative i suppose, makes things like the coven throne or rerolling any dice like fateweaver all the more important.

Attack order seems to be fairly crucial, so I suspect that anything that can mess with attack orders will be incredibly powerful (thinking of the wood elf forest dragon here).

mhsellwood
21-08-2015, 13:44
Note that in terms of damage output the Mangler Squigs must rank as one of the best units in the game - potentially 12 attacks that are -2 rend and do 3 damage! More damage from just these on average than the total average damage output of a Giant. They are also pretty quick and their only real weakness is fairly average defense with a 5+ and 10 wounds but your opponent would need some shooting to take full advantage of this (which he has very little of).

Fanatics combat damage output is also really good - again their weakness is shooting (which your opponent had very little of). Also the shaman gives some good support with the weakness of being potentially picked off (which your opponent can't really do).

I would think that if you dropped the Mangler and maybe 1 or 2 of the fanatics the balance would be about right. Or if he added a really potent per model threat like a unit of skull crushers to counter your mangler squigs.

Spiney Norman
21-08-2015, 13:49
Note that in terms of damage output the Mangler Squigs must rank as one of the best units in the game - potentially 12 attacks that are -2 rend and do 3 damage! More damage from just these on average than the total average damage output of a Giant. They are also pretty quick and their only real weakness is fairly average defense with a 5+ and 10 wounds but your opponent would need some shooting to take full advantage of this (which he has very little of).

Fanatics combat damage output is also really good - again their weakness is shooting (which your opponent had very little of). Also the shaman gives some good support with the weakness of being potentially picked off (which your opponent can't really do).

I would think that if you dropped the Mangler and maybe 1 or 2 of the fanatics the balance would be about right. Or if he added a really potent per model threat like a unit of skull crushers to counter your mangler squigs.

I confess I didn't really appreciate how destructive the mangler was until I saw it in action, mad as it sounds I intended it to function approximately opposite the Khorgorath as the wound values seems roughly equal (and many of the fan-made comp packs seem to massively undervalue it). I think next time I will swap the Manglers out for Squig hoppers as they are an alternative option in the batallion scroll and then drop the fanatics down to 1 so I can still sit under the sudden death cap.

GrandmasterWang
22-08-2015, 15:38
Thanks for the report Spiney. Loving the mangler squig and warboss they look awesome!

It honestly still feels incredibly weird to see night goblins all spaced out like that and not in a big block.

From glancing at your 2 forces I would have said the night gobbos have a clear edge but would not have expected the battle to be so one sided or free of gobbo casualties at all.

Fanatics and Manglers are a horror matchup for the Khorne AOS box set due to their inability to stop them getting into combat.

I'd be very interested in how that Night Goblin force would do vs the Stormcast side of the AOS box. They have a much better chance due to their flying shooters.

Thanks for the writeup and pics.

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk

Spiney Norman
22-08-2015, 23:07
In fairness no amount of shooting would have helped against the fanatics, the way they work is you generally don't release them from the carrying unit until you get into range to charge (the 'must release once within 8" range' rule from wfb is completely gone now). In fact since they release during the charge phase (even your opponents charge phase if you wish) the only reason mine didn't get into combat right away was they flunked their charge roll on a double 1.

I think if I try my night goblins again I'll take a minimum size unit of Squig hoppers and see how they fair, I'd also like to try night goblins in larger units so they benefit from their sneaky stabbas rule, but I'll need to wait for an opponent fielding more models so I'm not triggering instant death. A unit of 30 night gobbos would be horrific to face, given they'd wound anything on a 2+ and are -1 to hit from their nets.

mhsellwood
23-08-2015, 00:38
I confess I didn't really appreciate how destructive the mangler was until I saw it in action, mad as it sounds I intended it to function approximately opposite the Khorgorath as the wound values seems roughly equal (and many of the fan-made comp packs seem to massively undervalue it). I think next time I will swap the Manglers out for Squig hoppers as they are an alternative option in the batallion scroll and then drop the fanatics down to 1 so I can still sit under the sudden death cap.

Yeah, visually I can see the Korgorath vs Mangler Squig thing. The Korgorath is merely okay compared to a lot of real monsters - he lacks multi damage attacks, his rend is pretty average and he only has 5 attacks in CC. He does have heal and he does have an interesting bravery modifier but he is much closer in performance to a monstrous infantry unit than a monster (compared to a troll for e.g. he has twice as many wounds and a better save, but the Troll does more damage). I think the reason the Mangler is very low in value is simply that it is a massively high value target against shooting, and 10 wounds with a 5+ save is not very tough - against an army with a war machine or even a couple of shooting units it would only very occasionally get into actual combat (just like in 8th edition)

I would agree with your suggested alternative composition - should be a lot closer.

Jind_Singh
29-08-2015, 18:11
It's hard to judge with the smaller warband style of play - with a slightly larger collection on both sides the game doesn't swing as wildly as what you described - and the scenarios from the big book really do change the game

Also poor positioning from the Chaos player with his units, zero support to one another and not the best way to have used them. I've used the Goretide a few times now - and they can be pretty nasty once the units line up and combos start.

Spiney Norman
29-08-2015, 23:35
It's hard to judge with the smaller warband style of play - with a slightly larger collection on both sides the game doesn't swing as wildly as what you described - and the scenarios from the big book really do change the game

Also poor positioning from the Chaos player with his units, zero support to one another and not the best way to have used them. I've used the Goretide a few times now - and they can be pretty nasty once the units line up and combos start.

I understand that, but almost his entire force was dead by the time he began his second turn, I think the keystone of the chaos force's combo building is the bloodsecrator (though I guess that is potentially true of all battle standard analogues), if you can kill him (or protect him) he wildly influences the outcome of the game.

I'm particularly interested to try him with one of the new skull keeps that greatly boosts his range.