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some_scrub
20-08-2015, 18:53
How do modifiers to rolls Age of Sigmar interact with rules that reward you for getting specific numbers of die rolls?

For example, there are rules like this:


Unbreaking ranks: Deathrattle Hordes close ranks with a singular will, making it difficult for enemies to break through to attack their vulnerable flanks. You can re-roll save rolls of 1 for a unit in a Deathrattle Horde whilst it is within 6" of any other unit from its battalion.


and


MYSTIC SHIELD
Mystic Shield has a casting value of 6.
If successfully cast, pick the caster, or a friendly unit within 18" of the caster and which is visible to them. You can add 1 to all save rolls for the unit you pick until the start of your next hero phase.


and also rules like the Castellant's Warding Lantern:


If a Stormcast Eternal unit is chosen it is bathed in the healing energies of the lantern and you can add 1 to all save rolls it has to make until your next hero phase. In addition, until your next hero phase, each time you make a save roll of 7 or more for that unit, one model in the unit heals a wound.

The Castellant's warding lantern suggests that all of these checks on the value of the Save roll are made on the 'modified' value (otherwise you'd never get 7's), but if you're playing that way, casting Mystic Shield on a unit with Unbreaking Ranks would nullify their special rule.

Is that how people have actually been playing? I feel like I've seen people rerolling 'natural' ones usually in these situations.

Greyfire
20-08-2015, 19:25
We've always ruled it has to be a nat 1, not a modified 1 (there could be a negative modifier), for that type of roll. It seems like some rules have that in mind while others have the "after modification" type of special roll. I think they're thinking that we'd figure out which was which.

If it helps, the Deathrattle Horde doesn't have a wizard so they can't get Mystic Shield cast. Your point still remains, but I keep bumping into "but what if..." scenarios that when I actually get the units together I realize that the combo doesn't work in practice.

some_scrub
20-08-2015, 21:17
We've always ruled it has to be a nat 1, not a modified 1 (there could be a negative modifier), for that type of roll. It seems like some rules have that in mind while others have the "after modification" type of special roll. I think they're thinking that we'd figure out which was which.

If it helps, the Deathrattle Horde doesn't have a wizard so they can't get Mystic Shield cast. Your point still remains, but I keep bumping into "but what if..." scenarios that when I actually get the units together I realize that the combo doesn't work in practice.

I'm not sure I understand why you think this is a hypothetical. There's nothing preventing you from deploying a Deathrattle Horde and a Necromancer at the same time... The Necromancer knows Mystic Shield. That's how this came up.

Greyfire
20-08-2015, 21:55
I'm not sure I understand why you think this is a hypothetical. There's nothing preventing you from deploying a Deathrattle Horde and a Necromancer at the same time... The Necromancer knows Mystic Shield. That's how this came up.
A Deathrattle Horde can only be made up of the units listed there in the org/force chart in order to get those special rules. You can't add to it as far as I know. Otherwise, I'm going for field a deathrattling charnel pit horde, and get all the special forces rules for both formations.

Those special org charts don't have a lot of documentation to them, so I could be wrong about the organization limitations. But the abuses you could build would truly make for some crazy games that I don't think anyone would enjoy. I originally thought those things were to help build balanced forces but my first game convinced me I was wrong. :( Someone please let me know if I'm misunderstanding these charts.

Mr_Rose
20-08-2015, 22:01
All those rules say "you can" which might be interpreted as indicating an optional effect, so you could choose to re-roll your ones then add the bonus to the re-rolled value, maybe.

Choombatta
20-08-2015, 22:47
A Deathrattle Horde can only be made up of the units listed there in the org/force chart in order to get those special rules. You can't add to it as far as I know. Otherwise, I'm going for field a deathrattling charnel pit horde, and get all the special forces rules for both formations.

Those special org charts don't have a lot of documentation to them, so I could be wrong about the organization limitations. But the abuses you could build would truly make for some crazy games that I don't think anyone would enjoy. I originally thought those things were to help build balanced forces but my first game convinced me I was wrong. :( Someone please let me know if I'm misunderstanding these charts.

You can add additional warscrolls to your army that are not part of the formation, but they will get none of the benefits of the formation.
So you could add a necromancer in addition to the deathrattle horde, but only the warscrolls listed in the formations get any of the formation's bonuses.

some_scrub
20-08-2015, 23:47
You can add additional warscrolls to your army that are not part of the formation, but they will get none of the benefits of the formation.
So you could add a necromancer in addition to the deathrattle horde, but only the warscrolls listed in the formations get any of the formation's bonuses.

This is how everyone else I've seen or heard about has been playing it, but it's not really essential to the main question I wanted to ask about modified rolls. Let's take a different example.

Elven spearmen have the following ability:


Elven Shield: You can re-roll save rolls of 1 for a unit with Elven Shields. You can instead re-roll failed save rolls of 1 or 2 for this unit in the shooting phase.


An elven wizard casts mystical shield on them and the Spearmen fight in combat phase. Do they get to reroll 'natural' ones in combat?

Choombatta
21-08-2015, 00:02
This is how everyone else I've seen or heard about has been playing it, but it's not really essential to the main question I wanted to ask about modified rolls. Let's take a different example.

Elven spearmen have the following ability:



An elven wizard casts mystical shield on them and the Spearmen fight in combat phase. Do they get to reroll 'natural' ones in combat?

Well, as Mr. Rose said in his post, the rule for Mystic Shield states "you can add 1 to all save rolls..".
So, I would assume you can add 1 to the roll, or you can choose to re-roll the natural 1 and add 1 to the re-roll.

Now if the spearmen somehow manged to get a 2+ save, the re-roll becomes moot, you would always choose to add 1 to the roll.

As someone pointed out in another thread though, can Mystic Shield from mutiple casters stack on a single target to give it a 1+ save, therefor becoming immune to any damage for 1 full battle round?

some_scrub
21-08-2015, 00:31
Well, as Mr. Rose said in his post, the rule for Mystic Shield states "you can add 1 to all save rolls..".
So, I would assume you can add 1 to the roll, or you can choose to re-roll the natural 1 and add 1 to the re-roll.

So just so I understand what you guys are suggesting, the ruling is

1) Roll Dice
2) Choose on a die-by-die basis to Apply Any available Modifiers
3) Check any conditions that depend on the result of the roll
4) Repeat 1-3 for any applicable rerolls

So for the Lantern, you can bump your natural 6's to 7's and get the bonus.
For the Spearmen (who have a base 5+ saves) with Mystic Shield, you get to roll, any 'natural' 4 - 6 can get the modifier and count as a successful save. Any 'natural' 1 can pass the on the modifier (since it wouldn't make the save successful anyway) and get a reroll.
Then on your rerolls you'd be able to apply the modifier and get the thing on a 'natural' 4-6. (And depending on how you feel about rerolling rerolls, maybe you'd get to keep rerolling. But let's not open that can of worms here...)

Is that what you guys have in mind?

Choombatta
21-08-2015, 01:24
So just so I understand what you guys are suggesting, the ruling is

1) Roll Dice
2) Choose on a die-by-die basis to Apply Any available Modifiers
3) Check any conditions that depend on the result of the roll
4) Repeat 1-3 for any applicable rerolls

So for the Lantern, you can bump your natural 6's to 7's and get the bonus.
For the Spearmen (who have a base 5+ saves) with Mystic Shield, you get to roll, any 'natural' 4 - 6 can get the modifier and count as a successful save. Any 'natural' 1 can pass the on the modifier (since it wouldn't make the save successful anyway) and get a reroll.
Then on your rerolls you'd be able to apply the modifier and get the thing on a 'natural' 4-6. (And depending on how you feel about rerolling rerolls, maybe you'd get to keep rerolling. But let's not open that can of worms here...)

Is that what you guys have in mind?

Well, the rules do clearly state that all re-rolls take place before any modifiers are applied.
So you choose to re-roll or not, and then apply the modifier.
The rules also clearly state you can only re-roll a result one time.
So you could not choose to continue re-rolling a single save roll.

some_scrub
21-08-2015, 01:54
Well, the rules do clearly state that all re-rolls take place before any modifiers are applied.
So you choose to re-roll or not, and then apply the modifier.
The rules also clearly state you can only re-roll a result one time.
So you could not choose to continue re-rolling a single save roll.

Oh yeah! Somehow I had totally forgotten that little paragraph about how die rolling works in AoS. I'm not sure why I thought the rules didn't mention rerolling a reroll. Thanks.

So the way I read all the rules (now that I have been reminded of them all) is that modifiers stack such that you get the full benefit the save bonus in both the case of the Lantern rule and the Elven Shield + Mystic Shield combination. Any special rule that triggers rerolls checks the unmodified roll and any rule that triggers some other effect checks the modified roll. I'm not sure if there are any weird interactions because of this but this seems to cover most of the cases I've seen.

Choombatta
21-08-2015, 02:13
I am curious what your thoughts are on my other question.
Do you think effects stack?
Can multiple Mystic Shield casting from different wizards stack on a single target?
Can rules such as the Bloodreapers "Frenzied Devotion" stack from multiple chaos totems (i.e. Bloodsecrator and War Shrine)?

I will admit, there is nothing at all in the rules that deal with such situations.

Djekar
21-08-2015, 02:31
Mystic Shield can stack - I see no reason why it doesn't.

The bloodreaver's frenzied devotion doesn't stack because of the wording. If the unit is within range of a totem, they get the bonus. If they are in range of 1+ totems, they "check the box" so to speak, and get the additional attack.

Choombatta
21-08-2015, 02:38
Mystic Shield can stack - I see no reason why it doesn't.

The bloodreaver's frenzied devotion doesn't stack because of the wording. If the unit is within range of a totem, they get the bonus. If they are in range of 1+ totems, they "check the box" so to speak, and get the additional attack.

Let me start with saying I agree with you for the Bloodreavers, but.........
How is the wording of "a totem" different from the wording of "a wizard"?
One means only one and the other means each one?

Djekar
21-08-2015, 02:59
A solid point. I will look into it further.

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Choombatta
21-08-2015, 03:31
I in no way claim to have any insight into what the rule designers had intended, but I personally find it hard to believe they intended units to be able to become 100% immune to any non-mortal damage.
Of course, maybe that is the whole point of the addition of mortal wounds, the only counter to stacking effects on a unit or model.
I guess it would, in effect, be no different than ethereal was in 8th edition.

DVeight
21-08-2015, 04:20
I believe that they actually intended units to be able to become 100% immune to attacks/shooting. The source I obtain my assumption from is the fluff in the two AoS books released. In several locations the story tells of units storming a wall, attacking enemy, etc. under the protection of a wizards spell and the defenders arrows bouncing off the magical shield with no one affected. don't have the books at hand though if you have read them have a look again and you will see those passages.

Choombatta
25-08-2015, 16:03
I believe that they actually intended units to be able to become 100% immune to attacks/shooting. The source I obtain my assumption from is the fluff in the two AoS books released. In several locations the story tells of units storming a wall, attacking enemy, etc. under the protection of a wizards spell and the defenders arrows bouncing off the magical shield with no one affected. don't have the books at hand though if you have read them have a look again and you will see those passages.

Whereas I understand what you are saying, I would not rely on fluff for rules explanations.
The fact that the rules allow you to field a wizard in a Khorne army kind of blows the fluff out of the water.

Vladyhell
25-08-2015, 21:40
All bonuses stack unless the ability confering the bonus states it doesn't in it's description is how I read it

Choombatta
25-08-2015, 22:31
I was discussing this with my main WH opponent, and we both agreed, if GW had just used the word "Any" instead of "A", there would be no confusion.
He did turn my thinking around with the use of the word "add".
If an ability "adds" to something, it can be stacked.
If an ability confers something without "adding", it probably cannot be stacked.
Mystic Shield "adds" to the save roll.
Frenzied Devotion confers an extra attack.

Aezeal
31-08-2015, 18:19
If you are in range of 1 totem you are in range of a totem, if you add another totem nothing changes, still in range of a totem.

Mystic shield (each casting) just changes (and keeps doing it) the save.

Djekar
01-09-2015, 00:03
^ I agree with the above statement. "A" totem means "any" totem, while "a" wizard can cast mystic shield, but the effect of mystic shield is still stackable.

Kurtboard
02-09-2015, 01:41
My gaming group had a discussion about stacking mystic shield and we came to the conclusion powers couldn’t stack unless they increase a characteristic versus adding to a dice roll. Basically our logic was that it only instructs you to add 1 to the dice roll, regardless of how many instances are present you still only add 1. We referenced cover as an example of why this is so.

As an example: the wording for cover is the same as the wording for mystic shield. If someone placed a river through a wildwood, on top of a hill would it confer a +3 to the save roll? We decided that the idea of stacking multiple Sylvaneth Wyldwoods on top of each other should not confer immunity to conventional attacks. Assuming players are not going to allow cover to stack, then units would not gain additional benefit from multiple castings of mystic shield.

This also came up with multiple Tree Lords stomping. We feel you can only penalize a unit’s to hit roll once from the stomp ability. Being able to stomp with multiple Tree Lords until it becomes impossible to hit just seemed silly/OP. In essence you can only fall to the ground once; once you are there, you can’t very well keep falling into it.

Either you are in cover or not, i.e. either you are shielded or not was our groups conclusion.

hopkins
02-09-2015, 09:40
I like that theory

How are people playing units that re-roll 1s for armour saves but are in cover/mystic shield?
Do you add the plus 1 modifier to the initial dice roll, and thus any 1s becomes 2s, and therefore no re-roll?
Or re-roll 1s, and then add add the +1 ?

El_Commi
02-09-2015, 11:01
Rerolls occur before modifiers. Someone posted the quote from the rules in the last page.

hopkins
02-09-2015, 11:15
Rerolls occur before modifiers. Someone posted the quote from the rules in the last page.

so they do
4 pages of childish rules, and i'm still missing things!

Choombatta
06-09-2015, 23:41
My gaming group had a discussion about stacking mystic shield and we came to the conclusion powers couldn’t stack unless they increase a characteristic versus adding to a dice roll. Basically our logic was that it only instructs you to add 1 to the dice roll, regardless of how many instances are present you still only add 1. We referenced cover as an example of why this is so.

As an example: the wording for cover is the same as the wording for mystic shield. If someone placed a river through a wildwood, on top of a hill would it confer a +3 to the save roll? We decided that the idea of stacking multiple Sylvaneth Wyldwoods on top of each other should not confer immunity to conventional attacks. Assuming players are not going to allow cover to stack, then units would not gain additional benefit from multiple castings of mystic shield.

This also came up with multiple Tree Lords stomping. We feel you can only penalize a unit’s to hit roll once from the stomp ability. Being able to stomp with multiple Tree Lords until it becomes impossible to hit just seemed silly/OP. In essence you can only fall to the ground once; once you are there, you can’t very well keep falling into it.

Either you are in cover or not, i.e. either you are shielded or not was our groups conclusion.

After reading your post, I actually agree with this.
In all cases, the criteria has been met, but nothing implies the effect can be stacked.
You are in cover. Add 1 to save roll.
You are in range of a totem. Add 1 attack.
You have a mystic shield cast on you. Add 1 to save roll.

Although, would this mean being in cover with mystic shield still only adds 1 or now adds 2?
It is a new criteria met.

MLP
07-09-2015, 06:35
After reading your post, I actually agree with this.
In all cases, the criteria has been met, but nothing implies the effect can be stacked.
You are in cover. Add 1 to save roll.
You are in range of a totem. Add 1 attack.
You have a mystic shield cast on you. Add 1 to save roll.

Although, would this mean being in cover with mystic shield still only adds 1 or now adds 2?
It is a new criteria met.

Mystic shield and Cover adds 2. Otherwise the Mystic Shield spell would say the unit counted as being in cover, which it doesn't.


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