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75hastings69
27-08-2015, 12:53
I've been giving this a lot of though since AoS dropped.

Why was fantasy not making enough profit? is the first question I asked myself.

I'm going to assume one of the biggest reasons is that the buy in costs are pretty big, not just financially but timewise too. Having a 8 month old baby I know my hobby time has reduced massively, I don't have a week to assemble and paint a unit of 40 clanrats that costs next to nothing in game. I think this is the main stumbling point for fantasy, it relies on mass blocks of troops, which as we all can agree with GW means masses of cash too. But I am not going to turn this into a pricing thread, and I'm not even going to suggest lowering the cost of the kits.

So what would you do then Hastings? I hear a couple of people say. My answer is this.

Bring back entry level games. But I'll be more specific.

1. Bring back Mordheim, but change it. Make the warbands generic choices (like frostgrave) of profession rather than race. Do not waste any money designing/casting/advertising/distributing special individual warband boxes of models designed specifically for the game. Let people make up their warbands from the exisitng WFB range, this way you are maximising sales of these kits to people outside of the WFB part of the hobby and thus opening up potential increased sales. Let the warbands be from any race at all. But be smart, when you release a new plastic kit (let's say for example plastic stormvermin) run a quick article just a few pages in WD about running for example a skaven mordheim warband. This way the kit appeals to players of that race for WFB AND to people who might want to start up a new warband, especially having seen them painted up nice in the pages of WD. The rules would be easily and cheaply made, just keep the rulebook in store and let the guys pick up what they want from your existing fantasy range. The cost to implement this is minimal.

2. Bring back heroquest. Same theory as above. Make a boxed set that simply contains pre-existing models recut onto sprues for the box. Then let people fill their dungeons from your existing fantasy range. If you want even just release the rulebook and a separate set of dungeon tiles in card (as this costs them a lot) then let people chose their heroes & fill their dungeons from your fantasy range. Again when you release plastic stormvermin run a small article in WD or maybe even a small adventure about questing in a skaven lair, you can then appeal for people to buy other skaven models from your existing range.

The key here is broadening the potential sales of your existing product, with minimal outlay. And you know what, after people have filled their dungeons and built a few warbands they'll probably have enough minis to perhaps try warhammer too ;)

Let me know your thoughts.

ewar
27-08-2015, 13:23
Agreed, some feeder systems were needed to help get players into the universe with a low cost/commitment threshold.

More than that, they needed to do three other things:

- have a dedicated section of the rule book for low point intro games, say under 750 points (in the same way they had Grand Battles army rules). This would restrict unit choices and magic power. I know this is completely contrary to GWs policy of totally free form army construction but I genuinely believe it is much easier to sell a game to a newbie by giving them a simple framework so they can be confident they're not going to bring a knife to a gunfight.

- army boxes. Forget the battalions, they needed a box for each race that contained a 500 point starter army to play with the above small game rules. It would come with a unique hero model not available outside those boxes.

- core infantry should never be sold in boxes of 10 models, the pricing structure was all wrong for a game which relied on 25% core (which I firmly believe is one of the greatest things about 8th ed). The monsters and kits I think are priced ok, but core infantry was just too much.

And 4th because I like breaking my own rules:

- they needed to engage with the community! The lack of FAQs and Errata on obvious errors in premium priced books drove me mad, and just shows massive disrespect to your loyal customers.

Mudkip
27-08-2015, 13:38
I think the 10 model sets of models were bad idea. They didn't seem like good value to me, especially when you need lots of the same box. They should have sold most infantry in boxes of twenty at a more affordable price, especially core units.

The core models have also become overly detailed; they are cluttered and time consuming to paint. I have some state troops and they have lots of little details on them. I have dozens of these guys I can't be bothered with all that minor stuff which nobody is going to look at except from a distance.

Sometimes less is more. You can see in the latest releases too that their models are so busy, they don't seem to have any sensibility of how multiple models come together as a whole (not everybody can be shouting and pointing!) or as a painting project. I don't think the majority of people bought boxes of Empire state troops purely for display purposes. This appears to be symptomatic of their attitude that quality matters more than price; everything has to be an over-engineered mess to justify (in their mind) the endless price increases.

Baragash
27-08-2015, 13:45
I sort of agree with both of you, but I think there is a gap.


- core infantry should never be sold in boxes of 10 models

I think the transition from Mordheim/Heroquest/WHQ to WHF is too big. A game like Age of Sigmar but with square bases and proper force construction, backed by some 10 model boxed sets would give a good transition from the games hastings is suggesting to full on mass battles. You'd still need the WHF rules to incentivise people less towards needing 40 models in infantry (because it keeps the buy in low and because you want them spending on your centre-piece kits as well).

So you get:
Quest game -> small band of adventurers/minions
Mordheim -> add a few models to get a crew
Age of Square Bases -> add a couple of 10-model unit packs to get a warband
WHF -> add some WM/centre-pieces and a few unit packs to expand your warband units to get an army

EDIT: pricing and rules quality not withstanding ofc :shifty:;)

Spiney Norman
27-08-2015, 13:47
I think the 10 model sets of models were bad idea. They didn't seem like good value to me, especially when you need lots of the same box. They should have sold most infantry in boxes of twenty at a more affordable price, especially core units.

I think this is a valid point, back in 6th edition infantry units were commonly fielded in units of 16 in a 4x4 block (which is why so many of the troop boxes from that period still on sale today contain 16 models), 20 models was considered to be a fairly large unit, a unit of 50 would not even have been dreamed of back then and I think it was this obsession GW had with trying to make its existing customers buy ever more and more models to bulk out their units the eventually killed the game.

Ironically of course they're now doing exactly the same thing with 40k, requiring multiple units to build up into formations that you can't remain competitive without.

logan054
27-08-2015, 14:09
I actually think age of sigmar could of been such a system if warhammer had if become like warhammer apoc. You could of branched out with additional free rules covering different styles of play. Then you reduce the model count of the main game so armies around the same size of 6th. The armies look more like what should be mega battles I swear my current army must be like 20k in 5th.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

75hastings69
27-08-2015, 14:13
I think the transition from Mordheim/Heroquest/WHQ to WHF is too big. A game like Age of Sigmar but with square bases and proper force construction, backed by some 10 model boxed sets would give a good transition from the games hastings is suggesting to full on mass battles. You'd still need the WHF rules to incentivise people less towards needing 40 models in infantry (because it keeps the buy in low and because you want them spending on your centre-piece kits as well).

;)

That's why he says there should have been a special section in WFB for playing with smaller points lists, and I agree, it's probably a much needed 3rd stepping stone to the full army building commitment.

NpSkully
27-08-2015, 14:15
Yeah. I do think that games with bigger blocks of troops is more appealing visually (I am a beastmen and Skaven player) , but I do think that blocks of more than 50 make the game a bit boring, with combat becoming a slugfest center stage, which wasn't broken unless you charged Knights, a monster, or a hammer into the flank of the column that you were fighting. Going against a unit of 70 skeletons with a vamp lord and necros nearby was damn near impossible. Another problem is that GW, in the past two years especially, never relied on the game to sell itself. This is what a game should do, but instead GW gunned out release after release and flooded the consumer base with stuff, which wasn't necessary at all. A company that cared truly about its fan base would put more dedication into the rule set and less into the models. Imagine how pissed those space marine players who bought the first 7 Ed limited format codex were, when the book was updated again less than a year later. I would expect to get at least a years worth of out of a 165 dollar book. I mean that's 165 dollars that is now useless. GW needs to work on its pacing :/

Rakariel
27-08-2015, 14:16
Agreed. AoS would have been a perfect entry system to the larger Fantasy world. Buy what you like, bring what you like, keep the numbers of the miniatures low and learn the game step by step while expanding your army, actively promoting a small points game. Not much different to what PP does. They sell Battleboxes for every faction, low model count with a good discount to learn the game one step at a time. They even promote and encourage Journeyman Leagues for beginners. Its great. How I would have loved something like that for Fantasy.

75hastings69
27-08-2015, 14:19
I actually agree AoS could have been good as an entry to WFB, the cost is minimal, the rules must have cost leterally pence to make! ;) (just kidding) but it would be an easy way to start using fantasy models other than looking at them and painting them. A start for 2 small armies, skirmish level games but no more. I can dig that idea.

ewar
27-08-2015, 14:23
I sort of agree with both of you, but I think there is a gap.



I think the transition from Mordheim/Heroquest/WHQ to WHF is too big. A game like Age of Sigmar but with square bases and proper force construction, backed by some 10 model boxed sets would give a good transition from the games hastings is suggesting to full on mass battles. You'd still need the WHF rules to incentivise people less towards needing 40 models in infantry (because it keeps the buy in low and because you want them spending on your centre-piece kits as well).

So you get:
Quest game -> small band of adventurers/minions
Mordheim -> add a few models to get a crew
Age of Square Bases -> add a couple of 10-model unit packs to get a warband
WHF -> add some WM/centre-pieces and a few unit packs to expand your warband units to get an army

EDIT: pricing and rules quality not withstanding ofc :shifty:;)

I think you're right if you're considering WHQ/Mordheim ----> WFB but I don't think that is necessarily a helpful jump. I would rather those kind of games were standalone games in the Old World, like Space Hulk is for 40k. No additional stuff needed, just a simple way to get players into the universe - give them some background on the Old World and some cool dungeon exploring.

Then the regular WFB rules needed to scale down better and this needed to be drawn out VERY prominently in the core rule book as the MAIN way to play the game, building up to 2500+ armies etc later on. No lords, not much artillery, special scenarios.

Perhaps there could have been a list of regiments of renown that you could ally into your warband - but without needing a release of unique models like the old ROR i.e. I could have added a special named unit of 10 witch elves to my wood elf army or a unit of 10 Empire hand gunners to my Brets etc.

There are sooooooooooo many things GW didn't try before nuking the world that it literally makes my blood boil.

How about releasing a whole Warhammer 8.5 edition for free online with some tweaked spells and warband rules like above? How psyched would the whole community have been if they did that?

Instead they literally s**t the bed with AOS.

Rakariel
27-08-2015, 14:32
I actually agree AoS could have been good as an entry to WFB, the cost is minimal, the rules must have cost leterally pence to make! ;) (just kidding) but it would be an easy way to start using fantasy models other than looking at them and painting them. A start for 2 small armies, skirmish level games but no more. I can dig that idea.
If I am honest as soon as I heard about the idea I expected AoS to be just that, a skirmish entry system that is cheap on the wallet, quick to paint and easy to learn. Not in my right mind did I expect they would get rid of everything that made fantasy great :rolleyes:

Baragash
27-08-2015, 14:33
I think you're right if you're considering WHQ/Mordheim ----> WFB but I don't think that is necessarily a helpful jump.

I was only considering the models a jump, not the games themselves, though some common naming convention (simple example: always call "Move" "Move" in every game system) would be helpful. More along the lines (and GW actually had rules in WD to do this with WHQ and back in the day WFRP 1st Ed) that your Quest hero can be your Crew leader, your Warband leader and your general or a hero in your Army. Those Swordsman in your Crew form the core of a small unit in your Warband and a larger unit in your Army. Then they get individual names and stuff and you can give them rifles and make pew-pew noises whilst forging that narrative* ;)

*This is tongue-in-cheek rather than insulting, I always name my characters and give them brief Bios ;) I don't make pew-pew noises though :shifty:

Shandor
27-08-2015, 14:39
I dont think you need "starter Games" Its a good idea but i think some small things would push the sales already.

-Selling old boxes instead of send them back or just trash it, for a discount. Darkelves get a new starter box? You can buy the old one for 40% less.
-5 Models for 40€? Really.... Im sure if the Cost per box would go down they would sell alot more boxes. Peoples would even start a new Army here and there. GW staff gets 50% discount and GW still has profit here.
-Make some Events. Halloween.. 10% an all undead!.. such stuff works well in other Shops. Why GW dont do stuff like that?
-Bring a friend. If he buys, paints and plays his first game with an army of 500pts. you get an 10€ coupon.
-stay in touch with your costumers. Peoples love to get answers for thier questions about your Product. Something else then the typical "I dont know.. i know but i cant tell you"
-make somekind of Beta tests for your Edition. Release free beta rules via the internet and ask for feedback.
-Make polls about new Factions. So you can see what peoples want. Tilea, Albion or Sigmarines? Your choice.
-If you bring the old Army book you get the new one Cheaper. We reward loyal fans..
-Make Dice, tools and terrain Faction releated.. not just Khorne and Nurgle 3 times a year. Yeah GW we know you love Skulls and stinky peoples..
-update the Fu**** Armybooks not every millenium only.. Peoples would LOVE to play Bretonia but they cant..
-Make the White dwarf a magazine for the hobby worth buying.. not a Comercial Catalog that costs money. I dont pay money for an Ikea Catalog... why should i do it here?

At Battlefield Berlin you get 10% dicount if you are in a hobbyclub. You just need to Club Card. The Club asked at the GW store and they refused it "We dont do such things" So everyone is going to Battlefield where you can get Gamezone, Reaper, Avatars of war, a.s.o. mins.. wich are cheaper.. Smart move here GW..

75hastings69
27-08-2015, 14:58
I disagree with the update the army books thing. That for me was one of the biggest failing of WFB, the army book cycle. Army books were great for fluff though.

This is something AoS does right. Army Books should be free, downloadable and updated at source, not endlessly FAQd or stuck in errata etc. FREE and downloadable. Release a new unit out of cycle? cool no problem, you don't need to wait 4 years for a new book or cut part out of WD just download the latest army book off the GW website. I think the whole army book/codex is an unweildy beast that is far more restrictive than it needs to be. Keep it current, keep it free. People are paying a lot for the models, give them the rules for those models for nothing. Just keep the MAIN rulebook in hardback/softback.

* EDIT. In fact instead of selling army books they should sell ringbinders/folders with artwork on them, they could even do some limited edition ones if they wanted, or campaign ones. But make the contents free! In fact if you buy the ringbinder/folder in store or even the makings of an army in store we'll print out the most current army book/campaign book for you!

Horace35
27-08-2015, 15:08
And 4th because I like breaking my own rules:

- they needed to engage with the community! The lack of FAQs and Errata on obvious errors in premium priced books drove me mad, and just shows massive disrespect to your loyal customers.

This is a big one as far as I am concerned. For a company with such a loyal following to treat their customers/fan-base with such disdain is just baffling. I am a firm believer that the thing that brings people into the hobby more than anything is word of mouth from friends. GW has soiled its reputation so badly with it's fans I expect this is hurting them drastically.

I think they need to re-engage people and bring back more of a hobby element, which in turn would help sales of white dwarf.

I think the rules could help in terms of model count required. If 8th was somehow scaled back more towards 4/5th edition unit sizes it would certainly help buy in costs.

And everything else already listed by others is all pretty sensible stuff. Which makes it so bizarre they didn't try it first.. :)

75hastings69
27-08-2015, 15:14
This is a big one as far as I am concerned. For a company with such a loyal following to treat their customers/fan-base with such disdain is just baffling. I am a firm believer that the thing that brings people into the hobby more than anything is word of mouth from friends. GW has soiled its reputation so badly with it's fans I expect this is hurting them drastically.

I think they need to re-engage people and bring back more of a hobby element, which in turn would help sales of white dwarf.

I think the rules could help in terms of model count required. If 8th was somehow scaled back more towards 4/5th edition unit sizes it would certainly help buy in costs.

And everything else already listed by others is all pretty sensible stuff. Which makes it so bizarre they didn't try it first.. :)

That is true, they are terrible bad at communicating with their customer base. That HAS to improve, other companies do it and do it well, with their position and capital GW should be light years ahead of the competition. Instead they are the worse!

White dwarf under my suggestions in the first post would go back to having content, adventures for heroquest including ideas for laying out dungeons etc. it is currently nothing more than a catalogue and yet it would take such little effort to make it great, most of the fan publications are better than WD.

I think the OPTION for smaller games has to be embraced in the main WFB rules. Not everyone wants/can afford to play with units comprising of 50 troops.

Shandor
27-08-2015, 15:19
I disagree with the update the army books thing. That for me was one of the biggest failing of WFB, the army book cycle. Army books were great for fluff though.

This is something AoS does right. Army Books should be free, downloadable and updated at source, not endlessly FAQd or stuck in errata etc. FREE and downloadable. Release a new unit out of cycle? cool no problem, you don't need to wait 4 years for a new book or cut part out of WD just download the latest army book off the GW website. I think the whole army book/codex is an unweildy beast that is far more restrictive than it needs to be. Keep it current, keep it free. People are paying a lot for the models, give them the rules for those models for nothing. Just keep the MAIN rulebook in hardback/softback.

* EDIT. In fact instead of selling army books they should sell ringbinders/folders with artwork on them, they could even do some limited edition ones if they wanted, or campaign ones. But make the contents free! In fact if you buy the ringbinder/folder in store or even the makings of an army in store we'll print out the most current army book/campaign book for you!


Well i kinda like the books in my shelve. And its something i dont mind spending money for. But i also Agree with you. I like the Warscrolls idea. You can update single Units very easy and whenever you want without the need of a whole new book.

Mudkip
27-08-2015, 15:24
Also they should giving everything stupid names. "Warscrolls", ugh.

75hastings69
27-08-2015, 15:27
agreed, under my direction the stupid naming stops. No more Sigmarite, Noun Noun Blood Nouns etc. back to sensible fantasy names...... like the old lizardmen characters ;) (seriously I always HATED the LM names)

Comrade Penguin
27-08-2015, 15:28
I stopped playing fantasy in 6th, but i did play during the age of 16 man units. I feel that being able to purchase a single box and have a complete unit is very important to any game system. When one of my local FLGS started getting into 8th, I considered jumping back in. But when I saw that boxes are now 10 models for around $25-35, and units can and do generally go above 50 models, I laughed and went about my business.

So I was really excited when I heard the rumors for AOS. A game where I could take smaller units and focus on skirmishes, with free rules?! It sounded awesome, until I got to read the rules...

I would have created a tight smaller game that was balanced and emphasized skirmish combat. Models could maintain a 1" coherency and have freedom of movement, or be in regiments with restricted movement but with combat bonuses.

Then I would have let players know that a larger scale version of the game was going to be released later in the year or early next year. Let players build and okay the smaller version and then release the expanded full rules.

75hastings69
27-08-2015, 15:29
Well i kinda like the books in my shelve.

Buy one of my lovely ringbinders then, adorned with the artwork of your favourite army :)

Buddy Bear
27-08-2015, 15:29
You really can't have a discussion about how to increase sales without considering the actual costs. GW's gone out of its way in recent years to get people to make bigger regiments (4 wide ranks to 5 wide ranks, hordes, steadfast, etc), but that wouldn't be an issue if so many of their models weren't so horrendously expensive. Why do 10 Greatswords costs $41.25, when 10 State Troops cost $24.75 and have more bits? Come to think of it, $24.75 for 10 is still too expensive. $30 for 20 should be the norm. It should be $30 for 20 Witch Elves instead of $60 for 10 Witch Elves. 5 Grail Knights should not cost $75, and 5 Blood Knights certainly shouldn't cost $99! GW's pricing scheme is absurd, and I'm absolutely convinced that their failing sales are almost always a direct result of that. If their prices weren't so absurd then I'm certain their current customer base would be much, much larger than it is right now, and their total profits would be greater as well. They certainly wouldn't be making as much on individual sales, but bulk sales would make up for it.

Their relationship with independent retailers is also hurting them. They treat them like competitors when they should be treating them like partners. My local FLGS has had enough of GW's antics and stopped carrying GW product entirely. Now let me ask you this: who came off worse as a result of that decision. The store owner who's now filling his shelves with Magic and X-Wing and making money off of those games instead, or GW, which no longer sells any product anywhere within an hours drive of me (and I live in a major city, not a small town)?

They also need to interact with their customer base and, dare I say, do market research. Get an actual idea of what their customers want rather than making big fat assumptions and getting every one of them wrong. Take a page from WotC, who did things right when they made D&D 5E.

Encourage a tournament scene. That's one of the reasons Magic has gone so strong for so long. WotC encourages a tournament scene which keeps the player base excited. For that, though, you need good game rules, so hire better game designers. Put out tighter rules sets. Keep the digital army book idea, but go the extra mile of having rules and points values updated when needed.

Those are a few of the things I'd do to increase sales, anyway.

Svetgar
27-08-2015, 16:09
Fantasy sold poorly because getting started in it was a tremendous hurdle. I don't believe the prices are the problem. Look at what Privateer Press charges. Yesterday I got the email about the new Cygnar Storm Lances unit. 5 mounted Calvary for $84.99. If this was GW, there would be whining galore, but PP gets a pass. Why?

No its not the prices. It's the value perceived. Those Storm Lances are expensive, but they are a complete unit. I can buy that box, paint it, and put it on the table. With 8th WFB, you need to buy 5 boxes of $35 10 man units just to form out 1 block of your core! WFB got too bloated and most people (myself included) said the hell with this. I just bought models I liked for armies I liked, but I haven't played WFB since 6th ed back in 2001.

Horace35
27-08-2015, 16:16
Bring back entry level games. But I'll be more specific.

1. Bring back Mordheim, but change it. Make the warbands generic choices (like frostgrave) of profession rather than race. Do not waste any money designing/casting/advertising/distributing special individual warband boxes of models designed specifically for the game. Let people make up their warbands from the exisitng WFB range, this way you are maximising sales of these kits to people outside of the WFB part of the hobby and thus opening up potential increased sales. Let the warbands be from any race at all. But be smart, when you release a new plastic kit (let's say for example plastic stormvermin) run a quick article just a few pages in WD about running for example a skaven mordheim warband. This way the kit appeals to players of that race for WFB AND to people who might want to start up a new warband, especially having seen them painted up nice in the pages of WD. The rules would be easily and cheaply made, just keep the rulebook in store and let the guys pick up what they want from your existing fantasy range. The cost to implement this is minimal.

2. Bring back heroquest. Same theory as above. Make a boxed set that simply contains pre-existing models recut onto sprues for the box. Then let people fill their dungeons from your existing fantasy range. If you want even just release the rulebook and a separate set of dungeon tiles in card (as this costs them a lot) then let people chose their heroes & fill their dungeons from your fantasy range. Again when you release plastic stormvermin run a small article in WD or maybe even a small adventure about questing in a skaven lair, you can then appeal for people to buy other skaven models from your existing range.

The key here is broadening the potential sales of your existing product, with minimal outlay. And you know what, after people have filled their dungeons and built a few warbands they'll probably have enough minis to perhaps try warhammer too ;)

Let me know your thoughts.

After more pondering the only reason I can think that they haven't taken these routes before is either the people running the company are totally incompetent or that it is just too much effort for them now.

They are flying under the miniature producer flag now rather than the actual name of the company. Everything seems to be churned out with the minimal amount of effort these days. I am not really up to date with who works in the studio these days in terms of the design team. They have certainly lost most of the people whose names I recognise as being the old school guys. I was looking at Tuomas Pirinen's facebook page the other day and you can see the passion he has for producing games and content but alas all these people are gone it seems, or are just ignored by the higher ups

Tokamak
27-08-2015, 17:35
- core infantry should never be sold in boxes of 10 models, the pricing structure was all wrong for a game which relied on 25% core (which I firmly believe is one of the greatest things about 8th ed). The monsters and kits I think are priced ok, but core infantry was just too much.

This here. This right here broke the hobby for me.

I can easily afford this stuff. I'd even pay more for these wonderful End Times units. But selling core units that the rules (and the game's aesthetic) clearly push towards large blocks of grunts in such tiny kits for such ridiculous price isn't just barely affordable, it's also insulting to the hobbyist. GW is basically telling the hobbyist that they want him to pay more for their intricate sets with countless surplus options than to actually field larger armies for the same price.

GW has proven they can make large simple bulk sprues for core troops. Sprues that aren't as customisable or dynamic but definitely exceed expectations for core units.

That's what these marketing guys just didn't get. Price differentiation. Those premium kits are flexible goods. Nagash would've sold at twice that price. But large spectacular units only look their best if they're surrounded by hordes of unimportant units. Someone who fields Nagash would love to buy bulk-kits of zombies or skeletons to complete the army aesthetic.

However, people didn't want to pay these prices for tiny 10 skeleton kits, therefore no large undead horde therefore no Nagash in their collection (replace Nagash and skeletons for any comparable models in other races).

Start selling bulk units and people get into the hobby again and they'll all want to splash out on these centrepieces as well.

Skargit Crookfang
27-08-2015, 17:54
I've posted similar things, before, but here goes:

1) Open GW up to the community. Interaction, forums, market research, comment cards... whatever. They will, initially, take a ton of flak, but it is important to be able to listen ton one's bread and butter. The Total War guys did this, and got lit up, initially. After the initial firestorm, and after wading through suggestions, issues and responses, they were able to make a better product and provide a better service. This is less WHFB than it is GW as a whole, but the two are invariably linked.

2) Lower cost of entry. $70cdn for 10 witch elves is a travesty. Give people sets that they can afford, and bring back more of the 5-man "booster" packs and make sure every, bloody, store has them stocked. This is your lunch-money-taker, right here. It would be helpful if a large chunk of the core units from every faction had these.

3) Print a cheap rulebook. I love the BRBs, always have and always will. But it's a painful experience having to shell out $100 every update (well, less so now, but I'm older, better off and grumpier, now). That little rulebook included in starter sets? Yeah, that thing. Sell it alone and have "get-you-by" Ravening Hordes style army and points lists detailed in each copy. Keep the price at around $25US, and still have the BRB for nutjobs like me.

4) FAQs are a MUST....see point 1.

5) Expand out of the hobby stores and back into book stores. No, not the main products, but White Dwarf. That's what got me and several friends of mine 20 years ago - picking up WD at a local book store in nowheres-ville, population: an army base and 3 farmers, Ontario. If they do this, it's time to put the heart back into the hobby, and scale back on the consumeristic rhetoric. Let the hobby, in and of itself, sell people. It worked before, and it can easily work again. Will this up the cost of marketing? Of course it will. But the return on investment, I guaran-damned-tee you, will be worth it tenfold.

6) More direct community involvement. Support tournaments. Supply prizes to the ETCs, GTs, etc. Make sure your best and brightest attend these tournies and events and, hell, maybe even enter one of them into it! How much fun would it be tabling Matt Ward? And, I bet in the end, we'd all end up liking the guy a heck of a lot more, because of it (I assume he's a good sport).

7) Battalion boxes are out- Starter boxes are in. Every faction gets one with 1 hero, 2-3 troops choices and either a special or rare. In these, include an army list with "gasp", a basic tactica on the list (and army) itself. Also, throw in some D6s and a red ruler. Now, all my friend and I have to do is go splits on the BRB (oops, I mean the SRB, see above ;) ), and buy one of these starter boxes (from the faction that we WANT) and we're in the game! Easy-peasy! You're making the sprues, anyways, just make some new box art... or recycle old box art... whatever. This would be amazing, not just for new players, but for we old grumblers who want to start a new force. It would also, in all likliehood, have the outcome of smaller games being played more regularly.

That's not everything I'd do, but I think it'd be a good start.

Scribe of Khorne
27-08-2015, 18:18
Since I assume you are Canadian, your intelligence here is self evident Skargit, but great post all the same. ;)

Comrade Penguin
27-08-2015, 18:38
There is some really good ideas in here. I just don't get why GW hasn't taken some of these actions, even when they could cost them next to nothing. FAQ's and engaging with the community are essentially free and go a long way to building good will.

This is why GW frustrates me. I really want to give them my money, but they doggedly make dumb decisions that push me to their competitors. Let me give you my money GW!

Buddy Bear
27-08-2015, 18:39
Remember when GW used to put out boxes with 30 models inside? Oh, how I long for those days again.

MusingWarboss
27-08-2015, 19:30
Interesting stuff, however I think a lot of it boils down to rolling back the clock to some point in the mid-early 90s essentially. Which I agree with!

Why? Because at that time they were in a peak of creativity in the game design studio, the sales department capitalised on this and they created a friendly atmosphere that drew people in. It's almost baffling as to how they've gone backwards in attitude, range of games and stick availability.

So yes, how to save Warhammer: (my thoughts for what they're worth)
1. Look at Warhammer 3rd Edition for the structure of the book. Introduction to the hobby, how to model, how to paint, how to build a games table, how to make scenery. Basic rules, advanced rules, tournament rules. A whole magic compendium, a whole bestiary for everything in the game. Sample missions and appropriate information. Fluff. A history of the game world.

One book, does it all. It even specifies the base size of the individual models so there's no confusion or any of that modelling for advantage rubbish. Orc? 25mm Square. That's it, no exceptions. Human? 20mm square, no exceptions. No arguments.

Now the rules themselves don't have to be tailored after third - but the structure of the main rulebook should be.

2. Offering models in sensible amounts. If you're going to specify an range, say 10-40 models in a unit, then offer the maximum amount in the box. Not the minimum. Don't mess about making basic troopers in 1000 pieces.

Heroes and characters can be stand alone models, offered in a material conducive to their one off status. If it has to be plastic, bundle several common ones in a box together.

3. Intro games. I do like the idea of having a WHQ type game, though it should be a complete box, with nothing else needed to play. It should also be made widely available and affordable. Include a flyer about your other products in the box again. Take a leaf out of AHQ and include a section saying "Here's a load of profiles for using Warhammer models I this game" then you can sell them extra stuff which hopefully leads them into the main game. But you don't need to buy extra to play.

4. Interact with the community more. Hell, actually make a community rather than just a load of anonymous customers. Lay off the pressure selling, make it seem like a place that is inviting to visit.

5. Don't forget that they're Games Workshop, not Citadel Miniatures. That's just a sub unit of GW. Sure they make great models but without a purpose they're just useless - even for modellers and painters there is a wide choice out there, they don't need to buy Citadel. Make them choose Citadel because they're invested in your game world and imagery. Rather than other Generic fantasy or even specific fantasy.

6. Prices. Yes, it had to arrive at this somehow. Sure, you can price a bit higher than others if you have confidence in your product, in your IP and in your customer base. You can only have those three things if you foster good relations with the customers and don't have a reputation of randomly dropping established IP, warping your game mechanics for a cheap new edition sale and most importantly using the higher prices as a means unto themselves.

It should be appropriate. A character may cost more, a box of models may cost less. It may cost more but it needs to be consistent. A basic peon in the army shouldn't exceed in price per model a character.

That'll do for now. Army books are dead and really should stay dead, if you're to have them at all then they ALL need to be balanced and ready for release when an edition hits and stay until the next edition hits. But frankly, if you're going to do that - put them in the rule book anyway.

As for FAQs, it's a sad fact that occasionally mistakes are made. Happens. Offer them up for free as PDFs. If you start having a FAQ list as long as a new edition anyway - release a new edition that corrects them. Don't add more unnecessary stuff and change things and break them again. You can add new units etc, as free PDFs, put them in the next edition. The idea being that gamer A has 4th Edition and a few PDFs but can still play with the Gamer B who has the newer corrected concise 6th Edition because... It's the same game!! If A wants it all in one new updated book, he/she can buy it. Or not.

Skargit Crookfang
27-08-2015, 19:42
Since I assume you are Canadian, your intelligence here is self evident Skargit, but great post all the same. ;)


And a tip of the hat to you, sir! ;)

@MusingWarboss: I wish I could +1 your post. Excellent.

CrystalSphere
27-08-2015, 19:46
GW is never going to drop prices unless it goes broke or something. the most you could realistically expect is being able to buy "battalions" like boxes (slight discount over buying separately).
Also, the whole point of reducing the number of miniatures in each box (this happened around the same time to LOTR too) was to sell more boxes, so obviously GW back then saw that the game wasn´t making as much money as they wanted. Otherwise the number of miniatures would have remained the same.

I think the main issue is that the GW executives (the one who dictate policies) see the company as a seller of high-quality toys that are customisable (paintable, different parts, etc.), so the prices reflect that idea, as well as making miniatures with cool poses or movement (jumping and stuff) - so they are difficult to rank up, eventually giving to round bases and dropping blocks of troops.

This idea cannot coexist with a company that focuses on a tabletop game, and the miniatures are gaming tokens (of decent quality in general), a company like that would be Mantic.

GW has been moving around both poles for some time, producing miniatures of very good quality while struggling to support it´s tabletop game, changing things with each edition, sometimes with more success in keeping things balanced and fun, others failing. To me it´s clear that GW´s priority was always the miniatures and not the rules, who went for long periods without updates, and who were shamelessly written to encourage the sale of new kits. So GW´s main goal for most of it´s recent history was to sell their miniatures, and the game and background was a platform to that end.

silveralen
27-08-2015, 19:52
They also need to interact with their customer base and, dare I say, do market research. Get an actual idea of what their customers want rather than making big fat assumptions and getting every one of them wrong. Take a page from WotC, who did things right when they made D&D 5E.

Worth mentioning, the newest edition of DnD got a response not unlike what AoS is getting now from the more hardcore fans of the previous editions. In fact, virtually every complaint about AoS, the lack of balance and customization, the focus on new players over existing ones, the rules not being very tight and overly simplified compared to older versions, was leveled at 5e DnD.

Indeed, even the marketing strategy is the same, the basic rules for free, with some premium rule stuff being purchasable, but the main focus is selling people campaigns over rulebooks (and models obviously for GW, though 5e actually came out strong with a range of plastic minis). I honestly am wondering if GW looked at 5e DnD when they decided to make AoS.

Now, will the new GW focus on selling premade/balanced campaigns with associated armies/models, over more customizable armies/models for tournament/point based play, work long term? I'm skeptical myself, but the fact is you just cited a game that illustrates how a simplified system that also lowers the cost of entry for new players can be a winning strategy.

MusingWarboss
27-08-2015, 19:58
@CrystalSphere unfortunately every single thing you've outlined there is the reason GW is on a steady decline rather than the upward trend of the 90s.

While I agree they've always had a pretty good eye on the models I fear they've now completely given in and are focussing themselves on a market which may not really exist.

They're not focussing on gamers, modellers/painters or even collectors anymore. They're focussing on people who like to buy GW products for no reason other than they're GW products, which is a really, really narrow niche. :(

Kisanis
27-08-2015, 20:18
nowheres-ville, population: an army base and 3 farmers, Ontario.
Meaford right?

It must be meaford...

I agree with everything you said, and most of whats been pointed out.

Its really not that complicated. Engage in customers, 1box=1 regiment ready to go.
Scalable rules
Free rules
Flexible rules to allow varying gameplay sizes.

It wasnt rocket science...

Sent from my Z30 using Tapatalk

NpSkully
27-08-2015, 20:24
This is why I like the Skaven, because at least their models are reasonably priced. I don't mind paying 35 or 40 for twenty clan rats/stormvermin. I mind having to pay 60 dollars for ten freaking bloodwarriors. Less options and more men would be a good idea. I mean, if half of what you are paying for is bits, then at some point you are going to have too many bits to use reasonably. BRAINWORK PEOPLE!

Tokamak
27-08-2015, 20:33
Yeah and Skaven players can still scavenge the stores and web for island of blood deals.

Every army should have (had) an Island of Blood set. Just a large box, with a bunch of sprues that only contain the simplest version of single pose core troops. That's what would get the End Times juices flowing. That's what eventually would sell more monster kits (everyone wants to break up their blocks with something spicy).


Remember when GW used to put out boxes with 30 models inside? Oh, how I long for those days again.

Putting more models in for the same price will not make us buy less units, it will make us buy more.

30 should be the minimum for the core troops anyway. Any core troops. Special and rare units should be 20.

And use the sprues more effectively. Screw poses and screw customisation, save that for truly elite stuff (where gear actually differs for each model within the unit), for block units the poses do not matter.

Skargit Crookfang
27-08-2015, 20:39
Meaford right?

It must be meaford...

I agree with everything you said, and most of whats been pointed out.

Its really not that complicated. Engage in customers, 1box=1 regiment ready to go.
Scalable rules
Free rules
Flexible rules to allow varying gameplay sizes.

It wasnt rocket science...

Sent from my Z30 using Tapatalk
Worse- Petawawa. Though, I did live in Owen Sound for like, a year ;)



NOTE: I'm working on some really, really basic... easy to understand... get you started... WHFB rules. Nothing altered from 8th, just all very simplified, and should be around 8 pages when I'm done (and that's with big font!)
Example:
Statistics and You(r little plastic guys)
Every model, from the lowliest goblin to the mightiest dragon has statistics. They look something like this:
M WS BS S T W I A LD Sv Wsv
4 3 3 3 3 1 3 1 7 5+ -----
So… what does this all mean?
Movement (M): How far (in inches) the model or unit can move. If a unit decides to perform a “march”, they double this. This is also added to their “charge roll”, but we’ll get to that later.
Weapon Skill (WS): How accurate a model is and how well it can defend with their weapon. Most models hit on a 4+. If your opponent’s WS is lower you hit on a 3+. If it is more than double you hit on a 5+.
Ballistic Skill (BS): How good of an archer you are, basically! A rating of 3 would be to hit on a 4+. If it is over half of your maximum range on the weapon it would be at -1, meaning 5+. This can also increase with better BS. A rating of 4, for example, would start with a base of 3+, BS 5 would be 2+ and so on!
Strength v. Toughness (S and T): How easy it is for you to kill something dead, and how hard it is to hurt your guys! With this, compare Strength Versus Toughness. For example, S3 vs. T3 would be a natural 4+ to wound. This roll gets hard the greater difference in numbers. For example, S3 v. T4 would be on a 5+. S3 v. T5? 6+! One note, 1s always fail and 6s always succeed in this regard.
Wounds (W): How many times you can lose that whole Strength v. Toughness battle, above, before a model is removed. Models with 1 wound die when they are wounded, obviously. Models with more than 1 can take more damage. This is cumulative, meaning: if you take a wound this turn, it doesn’t reappear next turn. Mark this down with a counter, a die or on a scrap of paper.
Initiative (I): How quick your guys are. When determining who fights when in close combat, start with the highest number and work your way down. I10 would use their attacks first, I9 would go next etc. Note: similar initiatives attack at the same time. When models are removed before their initiative order comes up, they don’t get to attack (they’re dead!).
Attacks (A): How many dice you roll, for each model, in close combat. For example: there are 5 Empire Swordsman attacking, each has 1 attack. Each would roll a die (totalling 5) first to see if they hit their opponent (see WS above). Throw away the misses; the numbers that don’t hit. Now, roll the “hits” using your S characteristic v. their T characteristic. For every time you beat the number needed (see above) you cause a wound!
Leadership (ld): How brave your troops are! Leadership “tests” are taken using 2 6 sided dice, adding the numbers together. If you score less than, or equal to, your LD, you pass! Nothing bad happens! Daemons? Pfff! Who cares? If you fail… well… we’ll get to that later.
Armour Save (AS): Remember how we talked about taking a wound? Well, after the number of wounds caused is determined, you don’t take away models quite yet. You get to see if your armour stops the hideous death! Roll a die for each wound taken. If you have a 5+ AS, for example, you IGNORE the wound caused for each 5+ you roll. However, higher strength levels can break through your armour. You get a -1 modifier for each point of strength your opponent has above 3. So, Strength 4 would cause a -1 taking that 5+ down to a hail-mary 6+. At Strength 5, well, since you can’t roll a 7 on a 6 sided die… you get no armour save!
Ward Save (Wsv): Warhammer is game of magic and legend, therefore, some of these concepts can make certain models extraordinarily hard to kill. After a failed or no armour save you may take a Ward Save. It functions just like an armour save, but there are no strength modifiers or other kinds of armour save modifiers ever used to make it worse. A 5+ will always be a 5+, a 4+ will always be a 4+ when it comes to stopping wounds. (well… there is some trickery that can used against this, but this is a 99% of the time truism).

Tokamak
27-08-2015, 20:42
GW is never going to drop prices unless it goes broke or something. the most you could realistically expect is being able to buy "battalions" like boxes (slight discount over buying separately).
Also, the whole point of reducing the number of miniatures in each box (this happened around the same time to LOTR too) was to sell more boxes, so obviously GW back then saw that the game wasn´t making as much money as they wanted. Otherwise the number of miniatures would have remained the same.

The point of reducing the number of miniatures in each box was to increase the profit margin per kit. High margin products look good on annual reports, even when people are buying less of it.

Kyriakin
27-08-2015, 21:45
Bring back the days of cheap, monopose, zero/minimal assembly core units.

Then just have more detail for your command group and, maybe, the rest of the front rank (I guess rich people can still do this for the whole unit).

Shandor
27-08-2015, 22:02
Bring back the days of cheap, monopose, zero/minimal assembly core units.

Then just have more detail for your command group and, maybe, the rest of the front rank (I guess rich people can still do this for the whole unit).

I like my dynamic core troops. Maybe i would not care if i would play Skaven or O&G but i do care for my Undeads and Elves.

I think i did spend more time building and painting my Witch elves and Khemri Chariots then with the rest of the army :)

HurrDurr
27-08-2015, 22:09
The good thing about angry customers is it is easy to find out why they are angry. I would have taken the free thousands of posts of criticism and for very little money taken those ideas and run with them. No bret book for 12 years? No problem heres a faq that cost our IT guy 4 hours of research and typing, if it causes an upswing in sales of at leasts one battalion box you've already made back your money, increased customer satisfaction and loyalty, and instilled a sense of security in your expensive product. It is so very simple to do, so easy, this is what confuses our community. No one is really surprised WFB is discontinued, but we still have no idea why they couldn't get some dude to print up a faq that would greatly imrove the quality of life people had inside their gaming hobby. We have to chalk it up to blatantly not caring, or complete incompetence.

lbecks
27-08-2015, 22:19
I wrote this in another thread:

Starter set that is easy build, affordable, marketed, and sold in common retailers everywhere. Don't get rid of mass army rules, but create multiple levels of gaming. Invest in good games creators. Follow starter set with a Hero Quest type set. Make models more affordable, make more character models for Hero Quest. Create a paint line that is affordable and can out compete other paint lines, even if someone isn't buying GW miniatures or games they should still be using the paints. Sell the starter paint sets in stores next to the starter set and Hero Quest set. Acquire other miniature and games companies under the Games Workshop banner, also acquire licenses to popular and well known properties. Games Workshop stores provide a gaming area for these games and a membership system to play in the stores.

Addendum:

Essentially I think they should stop being so insular and be the hub company for miniatures gaming. It's more than just fixing fantasy but a change in how they do business overall.

Galadrin
27-08-2015, 23:34
I'm not surprised that 8th edition killed Warhammer as a profitable venture. For 30 years, Games Workshop's primary marketing strategy has been to make the game deadlier so as to facilitate bigger and bigger armies in the same 2 to 3 hour game time (http://swordsofminaria.blogspot.ca/2013/02/unsaved-wounds-by-edition-lethality.html). This reached an absolute head with 8th Edition's ridiculous 60-80 model units... whales that flubbed around the table and dropped what can now literally be described as "buckets" of dice (to think, it had only been a metaphor before!). This marketing strategy worked great when people bought into it, but by 8th edition the only people that could play Warhammer were the people that had collected an army for many years. GW was essentially marketing to a diminishing fan base of past customers, with a huge barrier to entry for new players and the usual player attrition that new editions brought. This is exactly why 8th edition collapsed, financially speaking.

I see AoS as a response to that (play with whatever you have, don't worry too much about rules) but it is also an extreme. I would have liked to see Warhammer return to earlier versions which didn't require such big armies, but GW is in the habit of rebranding everything and new systems and creative content is easier to protect than stuff that has been on the market (and been continuously imitated) for decades. Copyright laws are actually funny in that way... while a lot of the games out there are clearly derivative of the long Warhammer tradition, they have been around so long that they could legally pass as original (if not originary). When you combine the financial crisis of 8th Edition and the copyright opportunity represented by AoS, then you have a sure move for a company that has always been more interested in its own profit margins and market control than it has in any "hobby". In fact, the last vestiges of hobby passed when GW stopped putting out "do it yourself" terrain books and started selling Castle Grayskull toy sets for a thousand bucks.

ewar
28-08-2015, 01:02
Warhammer does NOT need 60-80 model units, that is just crazy. Don't listen to internet hyperbole.

jet_palero
28-08-2015, 04:06
Personally (and I know some will disagree), I think what warhammer really needs to do is get away from using models as wound counters. Steal a page from Mantic and Warlord, and make units defined by regiment size rather than the number of models within them. Don't have units decrease in size due to casualties, just take wound markers. Keep characters as WFB characters however, who can still join units and have independent profiles.

This eliminates the need to buy so many models at once (as you can have partially full units, or diorama even), while preserving the vast majority of WFB's gameplay. It would also make the game visually better, as our lovely models stay on the table longer. Characters and heroes are one of WFB's defining components, so we need to keep them and their influence, but just let them have a space to "plug into" a unit. Potentially limit it to one character per block.

Makiwara
28-08-2015, 05:26
The first thing I would have done is shunted all rules writing of the Fantasy Flight and kept only the modelling in house, with the books sold on both sites and then further at the discretion of Fantasy Flight's strategy. Would have left all campaign books, everything to them, maybe given them bullet points on a two or three year strategy but leave them to their own devices writing the rules to the models GW sells.

I would have released AoS as more or less is as a starter game of some kind, but also would have gone back to the old days of five game systems; Mordheim, Necromunda, Blood Bowl, Fantasy (AoS as a starter set) and 40k.

I would have then taken a really proactive advertising stance on the IP by taking some of the best stories and gone to HBO, Netflicks, etc, with say the Malus Darkblade chronicles, The Von Carstein story or Gotrek and Felix and tried hard to get a TV show, movie, animated series, whatever, in the pipeline and advertise the hell out of it, make sure that the game is advertised somewhere within the ending credits of each episode.

Shandor
28-08-2015, 08:00
Warhammer does NOT need 60-80 model units, that is just crazy. Don't listen to internet hyperbole.

Maybe if you play Skaven or a Zombie List.
My last 2500 point Khemri list had 49 Models in the whole army.
My Last 2500 Darkelf list had 87 Models Total.

Tokamak
28-08-2015, 11:34
60 model (give for skaven, take for elves) units do make the use of big monsters and large machines more enjoyable however. The large expendable troops just scale better with giant crowd-wiping effects.

Yowzo
28-08-2015, 12:17
That's why he says there should have been a special section in WFB for playing with smaller points lists, and I agree, it's probably a much needed 3rd stepping stone to the full army building commitment.

We ran a 750 point new player league and just about the only change was 2D3 power dice (that and that we did not include 50% characters) and its worked just fine for 2 seasons.

Most of the imbalance was solved by making games match-rematch exchanging armies. So if you bring out filth, you will be on the receiving end of it half the time.

I'm not sure if we'll still run it this year. The FLGS owner wants to push AoS but most of the crowd wants to keep 8th or some evolution of it.

Yowzo
28-08-2015, 12:22
Warhammer does NOT need 60-80 model units, that is just crazy. Don't listen to internet hyperbole.

Yes, actually games have been getting smaller especially with 50% lords and heroes.

Lists like DE peg and fast cavarly spam or dual DP and mounted chaos heroes now rule the roost.

Kisanis
28-08-2015, 12:46
Yes, actually games have been getting smaller especially with 50% lords and heroes.

Lists like DE peg and fast cavarly spam or dual DP and mounted chaos heroes now rule the roost.
If I wanted to play crazy herohammer I should just go back to fifth lol

Sent from my Z30 using Tapatalk

ewar
28-08-2015, 13:16
Of course some armies will use big horde units (and I don't mind seeing them sometimes for the spectacle) but to say they were ever required to play is just daft. A lot of the elite armies use quite average unit sizes, rarely above 30.

My wood elf armies feature a few small units of archers and skirmishers as their only infantry, the rest is MSU cavalry, monsters and flyers. I like to run a lot of infantry in my tomb kings for the fluff, and even then the biggest unit is 50 skeletons. Hordehammer went away very quickly, almost as soon as hard hitting monstrous cav started smashing them to bits.

Shandor
28-08-2015, 13:27
If I wanted to play crazy herohammer I should just go back to fifth lol

Sent from my Z30 using Tapatalk

In my opinions.. Chaos Warriors never stoped to play Herohammer. A Horde unit in a Chaos army is just laughable. The only reason to field Infantry aside from fluff is to get the Standard makes your Lord immune to cannons. Most WoC players ive seen have Heroes and Lords and some stuff standing around and is there there because it has to, not because its useful in any way. The Lords alone kill huge blocks with ease.

Tyelacoirii
28-08-2015, 13:30
I think the biggest issue was that Warhammer operating on a glacial release schedule.

Every 5 years (or worse/never if you were unpopular) your faction would be issued a new army book. You would get a few new kits of which half would be plastic versions of stuff which already existed. Its easy to go overboard with praising Privateer Press but they do release something new for every faction every year.

As a result of this non-release schedule the hype progressive died as people were left playing the same army the same way for the best part of half a decade.

Since we seem set to have three months just of Stormcast and Khorne-Chaos and then go back to 40k for who know hows long (Christmas at least?) I fear they have learned nothing.

Sir Didymus
28-08-2015, 13:50
I disagree with the update the army books thing. That for me was one of the biggest failing of WFB, the army book cycle. Army books were great for fluff though.

This is something AoS does right. Army Books should be free, downloadable and updated at source, not endlessly FAQd or stuck in errata etc. FREE and downloadable. Release a new unit out of cycle? cool no problem, you don't need to wait 4 years for a new book or cut part out of WD just download the latest army book off the GW website. I think the whole army book/codex is an unweildy beast that is far more restrictive than it needs to be. Keep it current, keep it free. People are paying a lot for the models, give them the rules for those models for nothing. Just keep the MAIN rulebook in hardback/softback.

* EDIT. In fact instead of selling army books they should sell ringbinders/folders with artwork on them, they could even do some limited edition ones if they wanted, or campaign ones. But make the contents free! In fact if you buy the ringbinder/folder in store or even the makings of an army in store we'll print out the most current army book/campaign book for you!


Exactly! They forgot that the game was a marketing ploy to sell models and not a product in itself. And with poorer and poorer rules released at accelerating prices, they drained the customers model budgets, and since buying the rules left people with no cash for models, they found themselves unable to play the game - and thus began an evil circle of diminishing returns.

Vulgarsty
28-08-2015, 13:52
I found it hard to disagree with any of the posters. The whole sorry spectacle of GW gives truth to the maxim that "the fish rots from the head first".

I would have paid kirby et al to exercise their meagre talents, narrow vision and absurd management style in an industry far far away (and preferably not safety critical)

then you would have the space to enact some of the very sound suggestions on this thread. If you start from a position of hubristic arrogance where ignorance is actually celebrated you can only expect to decline

Malagor
28-08-2015, 15:19
I will echo what others have said.
There is nothing wrong with having a mass-combat game but you can't price it as if it was a skirmish game however which is the main problem.
To fix this I suggest looking at companies like Warlord Games which has a great number of mass-combat games but they won't make you broke in the process.
1 box for 20 pounds and you get 30-40 models with full command(which looks great), that's pretty much a unit right there for most armies. Still gonna be a pain to paint all that but nothing you can do about that.
But if you go for the GW approach which is higher price point for fewer models then you need to have a entry level game(which AoS could have been but sadly not), using the same mechanics but alot less models to give new players a feel of the game.
Mordheim would have been excellent for this.
But what is most important, support. Support the damn game.
Do expansion packs, both free and paid, do various campaigns and so on, the possiblities are endless.
Yes it is alot of work but it pays off in the end.

GrandmasterWang
28-08-2015, 15:49
As an accountant and business adviser there is more sense in this thread than a lot of the things GW does.

Honestly for a 'business' Games Workshop behaves so bizarrely at times I think that the only explanation is that they 'roll for' all of their important decisions.

If only Kirby had rolled a 4+ on the "Do we keep Fantasy alive" roll...... alas.

Sometimes I get the impression GW HQ have an equivalent of the Daemonic Rewards table with a bunch of products on it rather than rewards.

"Hmm what should we release next"

...rolls..

"OK... Dreadfleet it is... the table has spoken"

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theunwantedbeing
28-08-2015, 15:55
Warhammer does NOT need 60-80 model units, that is just crazy. Don't listen to internet hyperbole.

Sure it does, that's what made 8th edition fantastic.
Alongside 5 man box sets for £30 of course, that was just the icing on the cake in terms of making the perfect wargame.

That's why 8th edition was so fantastic GW kept it and dropped 40k.

mrtn
28-08-2015, 18:05
Personally (and I know some will disagree), I think what warhammer really needs to do is get away from using models as wound counters. Steal a page from Mantic and Warlord, and make units defined by regiment size rather than the number of models within them. Don't have units decrease in size due to casualties, just take wound markers. Keep characters as WFB characters however, who can still join units and have independent profiles.

This eliminates the need to buy so many models at once (as you can have partially full units, or diorama even), while preserving the vast majority of WFB's gameplay. It would also make the game visually better, as our lovely models stay on the table longer. Characters and heroes are one of WFB's defining components, so we need to keep them and their influence, but just let them have a space to "plug into" a unit. Potentially limit it to one character per block.
Yup. To me the cool thing is to see ranked up units of infantry in combination with monsters and heroes. I also think that a vast simplification of the rules was needed, but that includes all units, it doesn't mean cutting out stuff from the rulebook and pasting it in unit entries. If I have to look up every unit every time I play that just takes massive amounts of time and detracts from the fun.

I don't want some weird skirmish game so I haven't even looked at AoS. I'd rather convert Hail Caesar to fantasy.


I will echo what others have said.
There is nothing wrong with having a mass-combat game but you can't price it as if it was a skirmish game however which is the main problem.
To fix this I suggest looking at companies like Warlord Games which has a great number of mass-combat games but they won't make you broke in the process.
1 box for 20 pounds and you get 30-40 models with full command(which looks great), that's pretty much a unit right there for most armies. Still gonna be a pain to paint all that but nothing you can do about that.
But if you go for the GW approach which is higher price point for fewer models then you need to have a entry level game(which AoS could have been but sadly not), using the same mechanics but alot less models to give new players a feel of the game.
Mordheim would have been excellent for this.
But what is most important, support. Support the damn game.
Do expansion packs, both free and paid, do various campaigns and so on, the possiblities are endless.
Yes it is alot of work but it pays off in the end.

And I agree with this too. I'm now accustomed to paying £20-25 for 30-40 infantry. Why should I go back to £30 for 10?

Buddy Bear
28-08-2015, 18:16
My 2000 point Empire list is made up of 41 models, although it's predominantly cavalry, with only 16 Archers and a Wizard on foot.

Kung Fu Hamster
28-08-2015, 18:51
There have been some very interesting ideas thrown about in this thread, but after reading them I keep finding myself asking the same question:

Would it have been enough? Or was the damage already done to WHFB?


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SuperHappyTime
28-08-2015, 20:34
There have been some very interesting ideas thrown about in this thread, but after reading them I keep finding myself asking the same question:

Would it have been enough? Or was the damage already done to WHFB?


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Honestly it depends. The games are still loved and would be bought. Here's a short list of things that I would buy immediately if printed tomorrow:
-Mordheim Starter Box
-Blood Bowl Starter Box (Seriously, the PC game is pretty awesome)
-An 8th Ed Bret Book (Even with AoS and 8th's death)

Really, the only thing that gives me hesitation is the first two would be $125, and there is no guarantee i could expand either game after the Box. Price really does matter

Comrade Penguin
28-08-2015, 20:41
There have been some very interesting ideas thrown about in this thread, but after reading them I keep finding myself asking the same question:

Would it have been enough? Or was the damage already done to WHFB?
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Things would not have been fixed immediately, but GW could have slowly rebuilt the fantasy community. Imagine if they released a thoughtful tight rules system that encouraged both competitive and narrative play? Then they supported the game with prize packages and community support? If they had gotten people excited about their game the numbers would have trickled in. This would have also been boosted by Warhammer Total War coming out next year.

Tyelacoirii
28-08-2015, 22:50
-An 8th Ed Bret Book (Even with AoS and 8th's death)

I feel the relationship with the Brets sums up the problem. A new Brets book would be a licence to print money. GW however clearly felt the IP wasnt strong enough and therefore someone, somewhere would use alternate models. So out of fear of losing a bit of money they decided not to make a lot.

Buddy Bear
28-08-2015, 23:54
The success of the first batch of End Times books proves that there was still plenty which could be done with Warhammer, as well as a desire for GW to give customers something to get excited about. Unfortunately GW only got excited about Warhammer Fantasy just long enough to blow it up.

Malagor
29-08-2015, 00:16
Not just the End Times, I thought Triumph & Treachery was a great expansion so there was still plenty of things to add.

75hastings69
29-08-2015, 00:35
There have been some very interesting ideas thrown about in this thread, but after reading them I keep finding myself asking the same question:

Would it have been enough? Or was the damage already done to WHFB?


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The purpose of the thread was an idea to potentially increase sales with minimum expenditure and upset to the existing player base. Options that could have been explored before destroying the game world and replacing it with what we now have.

ewar
29-08-2015, 00:57
There have been some very interesting ideas thrown about in this thread, but after reading them I keep finding myself asking the same question:

Would it have been enough? Or was the damage already done to WHFB?


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I think you have to remember that the damage was done to WFB progressively over many years. My view is that vets who love warhammer, REALLY love Warhammer and stick with the game, often for decades, playing multiple armies or just with massive collections of a limited number of forces.

GWs problem was always that the game system is massively intimidating to join for a newbie, both for the cost and the fact that most of the player base are longbeards. It's like joining an MMO 5 years after launch - you're so far behind the curve that it's almost too much effort to get going.

I adore 8th ed fantasy - I played a game last weekend that was just so tight, it swung both ways and I was at a massive disadvantage so had to think really hard how to play. But the challenge was the fun, I don't have any other TT games that make me feel that way.

What is infuriating is that GW must have known these issues for YEARS - lets face it, we have all known! Their own store managers must have been communicating how difficult it was to get in new blood, but seemingly they didn't want to take any action to prevent this slide apart from (a) continuing with the previous army release strategy and (b) pushing prices ever upwards to exacerbate the problem.

Utter, utter madness.

So to answer your question, yes I think a lot of the things proposed here would have fixed the problem, but definitely not overnight. It would take several years to build enough momentum to reinvigorate the player base I think. Plus, I think GW need to accept that currently any fantasy product isn't as popular as scifi, it's just a fact and therefore WFB would never be as popular as 40k (at least for the foreseeable future).

NagashLover
29-08-2015, 01:06
Destroyed the world...not like they did but I would have made it the equivalent of a post apocalyptic concept set in the Old World. Those not Chaos forced into closer habitation with one another more out of necessity. Think of it as islands in the ocean. Islands being the different armies/factions and the ocean being Chaos, all around them.

This ties into how I would have handled the system. Same core rules but separated into different tiers of sorts. Smallest level could simulate a warband style experience, individual models act as "characters" in a sense (say similar to Mordheim). Next tier would bounce up into more points creating a smaller skirmish style game. Maybe with a slant more towards a hero hammer-esque style game. While another tier would be something like the "epitome" of large scale 8th.

Between the tiers they could have special scenarios specific to them. Raiding a tomb for an artifact, creating a holy ground on desecrated land and wiping out a colony/demon horde. Show ways they can tie in together, incase if you have a "Warhammer Fantasy" game night, someone who only has a Warband shows up could participate in the Tomb raid which can affect other players playing larger games (not in game, just in a narrative way).

This way people get introduced into the system at the lower level. Core rules across the board with new things opened up to them to learn as they move into a new tier (i.e. get and want to play larger games). Tiers wouldn't replace the previous as they would actively be 3 similar yet different experiences.

Just a rough idea I bounced off the wall in 3 minutes or so.

Other than that, well the obvious rethink my pricing and model selling structure as it was rather terrible, bite my tongue and communicate with the community actively, keep FAQS updated monthly at least...

Finnigan2004
29-08-2015, 03:25
I like the idea of entry level games. It's been too long since GW was a games workshop. To help with this goal, I would hire more game designers and try to retain them when they gained experience and success. I would also find out what other companies are doing to hand me my backside in terms of fantasy gaming, like Privateer Press whose warmahordes has surpassed North American sales of WHFB with not only warmachine, but hordes as well. I'd then find out what my customers thought I was doing well, what they thought I could improve, and how I could open lines of communication with them and keep the information flowing. I might look at what other companies do to accomplish these goals as well, and look at things my company used to do that seemed to work. Instead, GW retreated into their fortress surrounded by "yes men" and ceded the fantasy market to their competitors-- hoping that 40k can continue to carry them.

Here's the most recent ICv2 sales ranking for non collectible war games for the people who want a source on North American sales.

http://icv2.com/articles/markets/view/32096/top-5-non-collectible-miniature-lines-spring-2015

75hastings69
29-08-2015, 03:50
In other news it appears that come next year Frostgrave is going all dungeon crawly too!!! So frostgrave will pretty much cover both Mordheim AND Heroquest, another golden opportunity for GW down the pan.

Finnigan2004
29-08-2015, 04:22
I just looked Frostgrave up, but it looks like battles with wizards and their retinues-- is it sort of like warmahordes?

75hastings69
29-08-2015, 06:01
It's like Mordheim

Vulgarsty
29-08-2015, 10:13
The big vandalism for me is the round bases which tries to make backwards compatibility redundant. The fact that bases dont even matter in aos and the only justification is the highly subjective "they look better" if that is really their justification (because admitting the true purpose makes them look like the vandals they are) then that in itself a silly triumph of shallow form over sensible function. This is really backfiring as i want a ranked up epic fantasy game i am now about to a big CD order with Mantic

75hastings69
29-08-2015, 11:47
I'm not sure how that add to this thread Vulgarsty, this is about what could have been done to improve fantasy sales, not another AoS thread :D

thesoundofmusica
29-08-2015, 11:55
In other news it appears that come next year Frostgrave is going all dungeon crawly too!!! So frostgrave will pretty much cover both Mordheim AND Heroquest, another golden opportunity for GW down the pan.

Down the pan? They could still re-release any of those games. Do you think even in your wildest imagination that they wouldnt outsell Frostgrave?

Daniel36
29-08-2015, 11:56
Warhammer was never meant to be a 28mm game. 28mm is skirmish territory. They should've gone for Warmaster scale instead. That's what I would have done. Especially in the last few years, sculpting seems to have become better with new tools such as 3D modeling, and 10mm models would've looked great.


Down the pan? They could still re-release any of those games. Do you think even in your wildest imagination that they wouldnt outsell Frostgrave?
They would outsell Frostgrave, but if you compare the size of the companies behind both IPs, one could say that Frostgrave is doing far better comparitively. And with several well known Warseers having jumped in and pulling in prospective players, the only way seems to be up.

75hastings69
29-08-2015, 12:01
Down the pan? They could still re-release any of those games. Do you think even in your wildest imagination that they wouldnt outsell Frostgrave?

Oh I am pretty sure they would outsell frostgrave, even with the diminished customer base. However as GW now see themselves as a model company not a games company it isn't going to happen. They should have done this before Frostgrave was even thought about, now they've been outmanoeuved it seems on the dungeon crawler front too, again by much smaller competition, they (GW) keep doing this, it's like they WANT other companies to gain a foothold. The aspects of the hobby that GW once offered has broadened from the competition, GW has now narrowed it's range to pretty much 40k/space marines!

Kisanis
29-08-2015, 12:30
Warhammer was never meant to be a 28mm game. 28mm is skirmish territory. They should've gone for Warmaster scale instead. That's what I would have done. Especially in the last few years, sculpting seems to have become better with new tools such as 3D modeling, and 10mm models would've looked great.


They would outsell Frostgrave, but if you compare the size of the companies behind both IPs, one could say that Frostgrave is doing far better comparitively. And with several well known Warseers having jumped in and pulling in prospective players, the only way seems to be up.
Im going to disagree there.

I think 15mm may have been better from a sales point. FoW has proven the success of that scale.

Either way, a warmaster and an epic at those smaller scales would have been needed.

Expansions to dreadfleet maybe to make it more variable?

Basically have the support games so that people dont get distracted by other companies.

Also,

Release all the rules and documents to 5th edition back for free
And all the rules for 2nd 40k and RT

As pdf's for free.

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MusingWarboss
29-08-2015, 12:41
Well I would say if they did release those games again now then they wouldn't outsell Frostgrave because they'd be limited editions and stuck at whatever arbitrary limit GW put on them. Even if it was just a limited 2000 copies of the Mordheim rule book with a quick update to show how to use AoS models in it, it'd still only be 2000 copies.

Ironically, back in the day GW did release all of these games. They should never have shelved them. That's their problem there.

As for the attitude problem, if as many have suggested they'd kept their momentum going from the early 90s when they had it all, I think people wouldn't have been so frosty. If you look at it from the momentum of saving Warhammer as it is now and reengaging a dissatisfied community then you're missing the point of the thread. Repairing the damage done over the last decade or so would take a long time. Keeping up the good work they did back then would have been easier.

Samsonov
29-08-2015, 12:48
Well, if Mordheim was released today with competitive pricing and long term support, yeah, it would crush frostgrave. But if the start-up price of frostgrave was, say, half a new Mordheim, then I really don't know who would win. Long term support would also matter.

75hastings69
29-08-2015, 13:53
Well, if Mordheim was released today with competitive pricing and long term support, yeah, it would crush frostgrave. But if the start-up price of frostgrave was, say, half a new Mordheim, then I really don't know who would win. Long term support would also matter.

Startup price for Frostgrave is 15 pounds for the book + any minis you have lying around, or 20gbp for a set of 20 soldiers and a furthe 10 for a wizard and apprentice, so you are talking 45 pounds in total worst case scenario.

Poncho160
29-08-2015, 17:19
Has anyone considered that fantasy just reached the end of its natural product shelf life and nothing could really be done to revitalise it?

Fantasy was (unless anyone can correct me) the longest running miniature wargame and had a run of 30 plus years. I can easily see it reaching its maximum saturation point in the market and it getting to a stage where it just wasn't selling in big enough quantities because there was no one left to buy it.

Mudkip
29-08-2015, 18:02
If that was true then Star Wars should have disappeared a while back. Now there's a saturated setting. The most common complaint I hear about GW is not that people feel the setting is played out, but that they think it's too expensive.

akai
29-08-2015, 18:03
Draw customers into your expansive and expensive hobby with low cost entry level products and promotions:

- Use their collaborations with other companies to promote the GW hobby. For example. when Total War: Warhammer is released have coupon or web deal for one free miniature and an introduction to Games Workshop hobby or so (like giving out a free Liberator with White Dwarf). "You like Total War: Warhammer? Check out the Games Workshop Hobby! Here's a free miniature and guide to show you the hobby side of table top gaming and miniatures! I got into the Games Workshop hobby only because of their collaboration with Milton Bradley. I was given Battle Masters which got me interested in miniature army battles. HeroQuest was purchased later which got me into dungeon delves/role playing games. From one of those boxes was GW advertisement for a free hobby magazine you can mail in for, then a free mail in painting guide by McVey (actually found the tips here more useful than their most recent painting books).

- An entry level mordheim-type skirmish game as suggested by Hasting original post, but that does not require a huge sum of money to start playing. Age of Sigmar starter set too expensive and involves too much assembly for some people to begin the hobby with, imo. Make a an entry level game that is complete in itself (its annoying to buy a game starter set that cannot be play as intended with what was provided in the box). In addition, have it available in larger retail stores. I would not have known about Games Workshop niche if they did not had Milton Bradley's games in large retail stores. In that box more advertisements on adding more miniatures to your game etc. etc. If possible, give a diverse group of miniatures that represent the wider Games Workshop fluff (not just two factions). When I got Battle Masters, I got introduced to Ogres, Orcs and Goblins, Chaos Warriors, Beastmen, and Empire. That is at least 5 armies in current times.

- A subset of low cost entry miniature packs that one can further expand their low-cost entry game. If quality of miniatures have to be lessen to make it cost less, so be it! Games Workshop already offered 3-5 plastic miniature packs for £6 or $10. I look at the $20 to $60 box kits and that is pretty expensive to try to expand a game for a new customer. £6 or $10 miniature packs to introduce more flavor is more reasonable. Again if they can make them represent the diversity of their world, the better! For example, for $10-$15 a pack can look like this

Daemons Pack: Bloodletter, Pink Horror, Daemonette, and Plaguebearer
Slaves to Darkness Pack: Chaos Warrior, Marauder, Skaven, Beastmen, and Sorcerer
Undead Pack: Skeleton Warrior, Zombie, Ghoul, Mummy (Tomb Prince), and Necromancer
Classic Fantasy Pack 1: Human (Knight or Greatsword), Dwarf (Slayer), Wood Elf (Eternal Guard), Dark Elf (Witch Elf), High Elf (Shadow Warrior)
Classic Fantasy Pack 2: Orc, Goblin, Saurus, Skink, and Ogre

Brochure inside each pack - like these miniatures? Make a themed warband / party of them with their pre-existing $20-50 box sets.

- All the above products should be made compatible with Warhammer Fantasy or Age of Sigmar army battles. Want to put all your warband (s) together into one army for a massive battle? Checkout Warhammer Fantasy / Age of Sigmar rules and miniatures.

Tokamak
29-08-2015, 18:13
Well I would say if they did release those games again now then they wouldn't outsell Frostgrave because they'd be limited editions and stuck at whatever arbitrary limit GW put on them. Even if it was just a limited 2000 copies of the Mordheim rule book with a quick update to show how to use AoS models in it, it'd still only be 2000 copies.

They also violated customer trust. This hobby is a long term investment. It's easy to justify spending money on something that's been running for decades and will probably run for decades. But now GW has proven that they're willing to throw it out of the window in a moment's notice.

Not even the most avid AoS fan will go all the way in purchasing his AoS force because GW has demonstrated that everything could be obsolete before you can blink.

MusingWarboss
29-08-2015, 18:31
They also violated customer trust. This hobby is a long term investment. It's easy to justify spending money on something that's been running for decades and will probably run for decades. But now GW has proven that they're willing to throw it out of the window in a moment's notice.

Not even the most avid AoS fan will go all the way in purchasing his AoS force because GW has demonstrated that everything could be obsolete before you can blink.

Well to be fair, they have form long before current events. Squats, Chaos Dwarfs, Fimir not to mention whole game ecosystems.

I think the point about shelf life is quite interesting. It's possible some games in the past did reach them but I believe Warhammer and 40k to be relatively unique in that the setting can produce great variations in game play and style. What is worrying is GW threw *that* in the bin. If AoS had been set in the old world - yeah it'd still be an insult - but could be retconned easily enough.

Fantasy comes and goes in waves. We're probably in a dip as far as the general public are concerned (see the Hobbit films) but in terms of wargaming we have a veritable bounty of fantasy games now.

Sureshot05
29-08-2015, 21:02
I find the most frustrating thing about AoS in terms of GW mind set was that it could have been implemented in the existing world. The End times could have even marked the appearance of the sigmarines, the world saved from Chaos and Nagash by Sigmar. Now with Chaos gates popping up all over the globe, you can go anywhere in the blink of an eye. Would have solved the issues of lizard men vs chaos dwarves etc, moved on the fluff and not have been detrimental at all to the existing ranges. If AoS had been a Mordhiem type box set, with 10 space hulk level Sigmarines, and 10 similar Khorne Warriors, i think GW could have been on to winner. Whilst some would still have been upset to see the old world changed so much, it would have been infinitely better than simply burning it.

Other things I'd have done is:
- released Horde boxsets (online only maybe) where you can buy 40 models for price of 20, thus allowing those who want to move onto the bigger games a viable way of building those regiments.
- yearly tournament lists. Books which list armies with selected units which are considered the current balanced set. So whilst I could keep the old Dwarve Orc Lobber in my army and the rules online, this years tournament book has dwarf armies which only field cannons for examples. This idea would have followed the Magic the Gathering format, where old cards can still be played, but the current tournaments are the latest season of cards. It allows player to field their entire collections for fun, dig out old models for games, but allows older models to be retired, and allows armies to evolve.
- Hardback rulebook with background for sale, but all army lists available online for free. A print on demand army rulebook service, which prints the year of the rulebook on the cover.
- Community interaction and balancing. Rewards for online behaviour, try and create the community that GW wants with a carrot (no need for stick).

Scribe of Khorne
29-08-2015, 21:59
The notes made on other systems really is key I think. GW was once the only show in town in all ways that mattered. I'm sure some systems existed, well actually I know some did as I played them (Battletech) but it didnt matter as GW was biggest, had the most pull and the biggest community.

They had Epic/Warmaster scale for SciFi/Fantasy, they had 40K/WHFB Scale for SciFi/Fantasy, they had offshoots like Inquisitor, they had RPG systems, they had Mordheim and Necromunda.

How many of those systems are now being filled by competitors, or they are now fighting head to head (Warmahordes) with?

In the online social media age we now live in, GW's behavior and intentional gutting of their own product lines has put them in a place where it doesnt matter if the investment is small on their side for AoS, or if its as profitable as WHFB, they have shot themselves in the foot soo many times, gutted their own stable, and frankly will live or die on 40K/HH alone in the next couple of years.

I've started to give Infinity another look, and the difference is hilarious.

Army Builder on the site? Free and functional.
Rules on the site? Free and functional.
Ability to buy in at various levels of investment? Check.
Rules balanced across the factions at the same time? Check.
Official forums on the site? Check.
Engagement with the player base via social media and surveys? Check.

Its frankly embarrassing how bad GW is at this point, and this coming from a guy who put in way too much money, and is/was eager to add to it, but is so put off by AoS, I'm afraid to.

What could they have done?

Fill all the niche's that they used to, and allow for gamers to use their Citadel models in various systems, at various levels of investment. Focus on the GAMES, that drive those model sales, and engage the community at every turn to recruit more players to then...SELL MORE MODELS.

But hey, I'm not running a business so what do I know. :p

Vulgarsty
29-08-2015, 22:22
Foolish to ditch the already there entry games - mordheim and nexromunda. I asked an indy today (who said aos was moving but easily the slowest of any gw product he has stocked (and that is for "£55 no further reductions!"). He said they should have released aos alongside wfb, not messed with the bases, and done all this 5 years ago. He was adamant the hobby as grown but all of the growth and a fair bit of the residual has slipped through GW's fingers (the more you tighten your grip... )

Finally whilst maybe they can charge a slight premium, it is clearly not a price insensitive hobby despite that expert analysis by kirby, occasionaly corroborated by a few boasters on warseer "ive got loads of cash and i feel honoured that gw charge me so much, i'd grovel for the privelage of paying doublee eyc..." If these people are real and not the GW plants I rather suspect, then they occupy a strange part of a venn diagram that by rights shouldn't overlap with having lots of disposable income as they should either be stuck in an entry level job appropriate to their acumen or already been rinsed by online conflict diamond/gold/unicorn horn smugglers

Katastrophe
30-08-2015, 00:52
Finally whilst maybe they can charge a slight premium, it is clearly not a price insensitive hobby despite that expert analysis by kirby, occasionaly corroborated by a few boasters on warseer "ive got loads of cash and i feel honoured that gw charge me so much, i'd grovel for the privelage of paying doublee eyc..." If these people are real and not the GW plants I rather suspect, then they occupy a strange part of a venn diagram that by rights shouldn't overlap with having lots of disposable income as they should either be stuck in an entry level job appropriate to their acumen or already been rinsed by online conflict diamond/gold/unicorn horn smugglers



Let the Church say Amen.

Truest best statement. Shills aside my friends and I have plenty of disposable income and basically unlimited gaming budgets and we still believe in value for cost. GW has long since fell out of the "cost doesn't matter" category. At the end of the day these are still figurines with little to no non-sentimental value. I and no one I know feel obliged to pay GWs high prices and whether they believe it or not these are not luxury goods and they are not price inelastic. They are overcosted and other games provide a far better gaming experience (actually rules that make sense with continued support for the game rather than imbalance for the sake of forcing new sales).

Tichey
30-08-2015, 03:44
Among my friends who used to play but now don't the common theme is too expensive. prices have gone up around 400% in 10 years which is ridiculous, especially today when there is so much competition.

Vulgarsty
30-08-2015, 11:28
Re tokomaks point about pulling the support. True. This will dent confidence in 40k aswell. If you can trash peoples 30 year investments in a system (not little tweaks armies or specialist games) a game that survived the careers of other gw staffers entire careers, not only that but deliberately scorched earthed it) then why should i risk my cash on any of their portfolio. Has someone with a working but older ipad and iphone i wanted to squeeze a year more out of, i am never touching an apple product again

Kyriakin
30-08-2015, 14:09
Has anyone considered that fantasy just reached the end of its natural product shelf life and nothing could really be done to revitalise it?

Fantasy was (unless anyone can correct me) the longest running miniature wargame and had a run of 30 plus years. I can easily see it reaching its maximum saturation point in the market and it getting to a stage where it just wasn't selling in big enough quantities because there was no one left to buy it.
At that point you licence it off to a smaller company that does not have demanding shareholders, thus removing the veterans from the picture in a good way, rather than having them actively pushing competitor's products on the potential newbies.

Veterans have a huge trend-setting influence within gaming and hobbying communities, especially if they own/run a FLGS or gaming club. Even if the B&M GW store snags the newbie first, he'll be exposed to the gaming club scene in order to get regular games, at which point the "alternatives" will be put forward by people who just had their $x,xxx armies effectively invalidated or, at the very least, left in a state of utter limbo.

Even if the veteran isn't motivated by bitterness and revenge, is this really a good and stable time to confidently recommend a GW fantasy product? There is evidence that the AoS release hasn't set the world on fire and GW have shown a history of throwing their cards in when sales fall below expectations (WHFB, SGs, etc.). Personally, I'd feel loathe to recommend a kid spends hundreds of pounds on AoS stuff if there is a chance that kid might end up holding the 'squat bomb' at the point the GW suits decide to hit the red button ("well, we gave it a go, but clearly there is no market for fantasy...").

They have damaged consumer confidence beyond repair IMHO. People tend to buy into something if they know it will continue to be supported, which is why the "big fish" GW could charge so much - as well as their superior minis - as their previous competitors failed to get critical mass to maintain their existence. You felt safe with GW as they were big enough to support obscure and unprofitable lines, if only to prevent their competitors from gaining traction in that section of the market (6mm/10mm, spaceships, small-scale skirmish, etc.).

However, the landscape, both in terms of GW's philosophy and the staying power of the competition, is obviously very different now...

heretic
30-08-2015, 15:23
You don't destroy WHFB. Now bear in mind my knowledge of the lore is limited.

So End Times happens. The world is ripped apart into the Maelstrom. Sigmar, ascended to the FB equiv of the God-Emperah, along with the other dudes see things falling apart. They fight like mother****ers can fight, smashing through realities and stuff. People are dying all over the place, deamons running around, the undead having a buffet, stuff like that.

Sigmar manages to seal off the shattered world from chaos save but a trickle. But stuffis all jacked up. Like some places of the world physics is only a suggestion. Different times and histories bind together.

A force from 5th edition can trip through a fault and end up fighting some kind of odd nurgle-skaven.

Your Bretonnian Knights might wander through a forest and end up seeing another host of Bretonnians during ET, where many had fell to their hidden Vampire cabal cult stuff so now you have Camelot knights fighting Vampire Knights. Who the **** wouldn't want that? stuff, you want that.

So now GW can use ET to consolidate all the factions.

You have Elves, Humans, Orcs and Gobs, Chaos, Dwarves, Undead, and Lizardmen.

But the storyline would allow you to make all sorts of deviations. Want chaos dwarves? Cool, hey here's what it wood cost to get marks of chaos, and by the way it'll have X specific drawbacks.

Want baddie dark elves? No problem! Just paint and convert the new-released Aelf (seriously?) line.

So you have factions, but GW can incorporate a ton of ways to "deviate" from the standard list. This opens up conversions, and brings together old and new.


But Sigmarines!! You need the space marine cash cow! Yes! NEW FACTION. Sigmarines remain. They are just like they are in AoS. Literal generic good guys.


Ah, but 8th Ed was too costly, and steadfast & stuff made armies huge. Well **** me check this stuff out.

Warhammer gets 3 tiers.

Tier 1: Hero level. This is your basic AoS. It's not a full on skirmish, but you build your hero and retinue. You can go in depth and give your hero stats, a history, specific warhead, and fight others. Give your hero a retinue. Average fights are 10 models a side. Low entry cost, simple rules. Tier 1 introduces you to Warhammer and it sucks you in because you begin to make your hero a character.

Tier 2: Take LoTR rules and port them over to WHFB. This is the true skirmish game. There are now point values, and much tighter rules. Your retinue is now a war and. Your hero isn't listed as in depth but still 'your guy/gal' and now has a decent war and. Magic on a simple form like 40k is involved. Or something. Anyway, these rules are specific and not open for debate. This is your tourney-level play where the game is made for balance.

Now the cool part: Tier 1 can still scale to this size. It's AoS sized after all. So if you still want beer and pretzels you can.

Lastly, Tier 3: Warhammer Regiments. Your hero now leads an army. By now you e been playing a while and you e been collecting the awesome new line of GW minis. These are fought on a whole new level. GW would sell base trays to fit round bases for $10 each.

So now I have done the following:

- Made FB grimdark and added Space Marines

- Brought tourney play back

- Created entry level ways to "get playing right away" and to build customer loyalty through personification.

- Preserved the FB world while at the same time creating a new universe with protected IP, and did so without alienating people, and giving a setting for everyone to play everyone within the lore.

theunwantedbeing
30-08-2015, 15:40
I blame the implementation of the horde formation for the downfall of fantasy, the constant push for ever larger units, price rises and ever smaller boxes of units lead to it.

Going back to a smaller scale game where units rarely went beyond 25 models would have been more feasible, limit the horde formation and such to larger grand armies would be better. We keep almost everything else from 8th edition.
Steadfast gets negated by Disruption (less of an issue now with smaller units), ditch the re-rolls of stuff in favour of something else entirely.
Ditch the constant power creep of spells and abilities as well or at least make them a much greater risk or expense.

Bring in some level of freebie rules but keep them really simple to entice players to get hold of the actual rules.
eg.
Warscrolls but all the warscroll details is what each man does, his stats, equipment and the names of any special abilities he has access to
More magic cards rather than the drip feed method of selling them
Magical item cards

I'de like to see a dedicated 2+ page FAQ for each army as well, answering basic stuff and more advanced things even if they're dumb questions nobody has ever asked
Not an errata, those mistakes should be caught before the rules get printed.
Same for the rulebook itself and any supplements that get created, this isn't to be used as an excuse to not put things into the game to be added later, it's to give the illusion of being dedicated to the gaming community by letting them get free stuff related to the game.

Sir Didymus
31-08-2015, 08:11
One other thing that GW forgot to do about Warhammer was to engage with their customers. For years they could observe mad rants on internet forums, customers dissatisfied with their pricing strategy or just that the rules weren't specific enough in how you "roll" a d6. But they just didn't care, and worse they didn't care to explain this to their customers - this particularly is a problem, when your product will set them back several hundred pounds and enormous amounts of time.

But GW didn't want to host their own forum, they didn't want a rules jockey to stand by and clear out misunderstandings from ambiguous rules writings, talking with their customers were so beneath them. And talking to anyone, who just knows a tad about marketing, you'd learn that you'll get a lot more from talking with than at your customers. And they took this attitude with them in anything they do, White Dwarf went from a hobby magazine to a sales catalogue, gone were all the little advice on how to get by until you could afford all the expensive official stuff. If you happened to walk into a GW store, you should wear the meanest frown upon your face just to avoid the redshirt shouting "BUY! BUY! BUY!".

I actually think that the failure to communicate with their customer base were the biggest failing. Pricing is one thing, but thats just a matter of choosing your customers - google the term "whaling" - but if you decide on a pricing strategy, that aims at grown men with plenty of disposable income, then your product should reflect so. Your rules should have clarity, and your game should have plenty of depth and intricacies for those men to explore, but when the game at the same time devolves into a kids game of "I cast my big spell with lots of dice and win", then you've got two aspects of a game working in different directions.

GW would have known this, if just they'd talked with their customers instead of standing on a lone mountain top shouting "Buy! Buy! BUY!".

BTW: its really odd, that GW has this aggressive sales strategy, while they eschew advertising.

Yowzo
31-08-2015, 12:11
I blame the implementation of the horde formation for the downfall of fantasy, the constant push for ever larger units, price rises and ever smaller boxes of units lead to it.

Funny. The biggest units (i.e. almost eternally steadfast tarpits) never go in horde formation.

Large units are so 2011. For the last years it's all about being mobile and hard-hitting.

Pricing is still _the_ major concern, though.

Gorbad Ironclaw
31-08-2015, 12:30
Startup price for Frostgrave is 15 pounds for the book + any minis you have lying around, or 20gbp for a set of 20 soldiers and a furthe 10 for a wizard and apprentice, so you are talking 45 pounds in total worst case scenario.

I bought the book for £10 on Amazon and that have been my entire expense in playing it. I have everything else I need from other games. Seems to have been what everyone else is doing too. Buying the rules and then using whatever models they have available. The system honestly isn't great, but it's also super easy to adjust and it will be fun for a campaign of half a dozen games, maybe more. If GW were to release Mordheim I'd wait to see what the rules were like. If it's still using the same system as before then I'll pass. I can forgive a not great system if I'm paying a tenner and playing it 5-10 times. I'm not going to get Mordheim for £10 so it would need to be a much better game. GW could probably do that, I've just not seen any indications they would want to.