PDA

View Full Version : Emperor's Mastery Level



sunborn
31-08-2015, 01:02
What do people think the Emperor's psyker Mastery Level would be?

Psykers with a Mastery Level of 4 or higher are incredibly rare, and it is better for the galaxy that this is so--they are almost unbelievably powerful, and rarely submit to any authority other than their own. BRB pg 22

To put things in perspective:

Grey Knights: 1-2
Lords of Change: 2-3
Daemon Prince: 0-3
Chief Librarian Tigurius: 3
Be'Lakor:3
Ahriman: 4
Karios Fateweaver: 4
Eldrad Ulthran: 4



Other levels we can conjecture at:

Magnus the Red (Pre-Heresy)
Magnus the Red (Daemon Prince)
Malcador the Sigillite

agurus1
31-08-2015, 01:08
I could probaly see him with a Mastery Level 4-5 but being able to harness warp charges on a 2+ and ignoring perils or some such

Okuto
31-08-2015, 05:18
A close 4....only because Eldrad is at 4 and I consider him the best psyker in universe.

Big E's been around sure, but the eldar have it down to a science where the Big E can only fumble around and test to see what works.

Romanov77
31-08-2015, 10:53
I thought that the only answer would have been "over 9000".

7788
31-08-2015, 19:49
Well, let's see what the background sez:

He has a higher (theoretical) level than the big 4 of Chaos combined because he can hurt them. Proof: they ALL had to cooperate in order to beat him, and (so far) has ended in a draw, more or less.
He has a higher level than Horus (not Horus' current level, the theoretical level of post-Molech Horus). Cause he killed him.
He has a higher level than Eldrad because 1) Eldrad never is shown to attract the special attention of the big 4 and 2) He is likely(?) dead.
He made Vulkan and that guy has a theoretical post-Vulkan Lives level of about 1 million since he can't die for some reason or other.
He maybe off doing things, while everyone thinks he's melting like wax up on that throne (perhaps chasing down 40K background writers and giving them the Emperor's Peace. No, that would be too neat).

What a game (with a rulebook that allows properly flexible rules) should say:
Yes, all that is fine and dandy, but, what if ...


EDIT: sorry, my vote is, none of the above (voting choices)

Jack of Blades
31-08-2015, 21:03
There is "contradictory" fluff.

On one hand, we have the Emperor pretty casually obliterating Horus's essence from existence to the point that the Chaos Gods wouldn't even be able to resurrect him, in an instant, after the Emperor was mortally wounded, while Horus - a demigod already in his own right - was being directly fuelled by the consciousness of the Chaos Gods as they were flooding Horus with power in their attempt to kill the Emperor. All that kept the Emperor from killing Horus instantly the moment he saw him were his own by that time outdated feelings for him, which is probably part of what the Chaos Gods banked on.

On the other, we also have Horus saving the Emperor from an Ork, and the Emperor's Children saving him from something as well (don't remember what).

Malcador, one of the most psychically powerful humans in the history of man, could sit upon the Golden Throne while alive and well for only hours before being fried to a crisp. The Emperor's corpse has kept it running for 10 000 years.

I don't think that the Emperor is more powerful than the Chaos Gods together in their own realm (though he is probably able to hold them at bay by now with so many quadrillions of worshippers for 10 000 years making his presence in the Warp significantly strengthened locally in the Milky Way galaxy), but to compare him to something like a greater daemon or Eldar leader is to set his abilities below what they were. While not godly, and vulnerable in both direct and indirect ways, the Emperor was one of the most powerful beings to ever exist in the physical realm - and even against the C'tan which are basically gods of the material universe, he has the advantage of being a psyker.

So in conclusion his mastery level is that of someone who while mortally wounded is still capable of instantly killing and erasing from existence a demigod who is also the singular galactic chosen of the Dark Gods actively combining their power against said mortally wounded someone.

sunborn
31-08-2015, 21:43
Jack makes many of the points that I have thought about. In the end, I put the E-dogg at 7, maybe 8.


On one hand, we have the Emperor pretty casually obliterating Horus's essence from existence to the point that the Chaos Gods wouldn't even be able to resurrect him, in an instant, after the Emperor was mortally wounded, while Horus - a demigod already in his own right.

On the other, we also have Horus saving the Emperor from an Ork, and the Emperor's Children saving him from something as well (don't remember what).

Malcador, one of the most psychically powerful humans in the history of man, could sit upon the Golden Throne while alive and well for only hours before being fried to a crisp. The Emperor's corpse has kept it running for 10 000 years.

Malcador, the most powerful human psyker cannot be higher than 4. Although he is probably just 3 because according to the psyker scale, a human cannot be higher than gamma without being corrupted by the warp. Either way, this guy stuck an entire planet into the warp for "years" (Titan). This is Rubric of Ahriman kind of stuff.

An alpha level psyker is clearly around the level of 4, I am pretty sure Eldrad is considered alpha-level.

An alpha plus level psyker would be >4 so I would put Magnus at 5-6 in either of his forms. Magnus was destined for the Golden Throne so he is clearly much higher than Malcador.

This leaves the Emprah at a 7-8. Clearly that is the ballpark and reasonable in relation to fluff and the effects that lower level psykers that have formal levels can demonstrate.

7788
31-08-2015, 22:37
There is "contradictory" fluff.

On one hand, we have the Emperor pretty casually obliterating Horus's essence from existence to the point that the Chaos Gods wouldn't even be able to resurrect him, in an instant, after the Emperor was mortally wounded, while Horus - a demigod already in his own right - was being directly fuelled by the consciousness of the Chaos Gods as they were flooding Horus with power in their attempt to kill the Emperor. All that kept the Emperor from killing Horus instantly the moment he saw him were his own by that time outdated feelings for him, which is probably part of what the Chaos Gods banked on.

On the other, we also have Horus saving the Emperor from an Ork, and the Emperor's Children saving him from something as well (don't remember what).

Malcador, one of the most psychically powerful humans in the history of man, could sit upon the Golden Throne while alive and well for only hours before being fried to a crisp. The Emperor's corpse has kept it running for 10 000 years.

I don't think that the Emperor is more powerful than the Chaos Gods together in their own realm (though he is probably able to hold them at bay by now with so many quadrillions of worshippers for 10 000 years making his presence in the Warp significantly strengthened locally in the Milky Way galaxy), but to compare him to something like a greater daemon or Eldar leader is to set his abilities below what they were. While not godly, and vulnerable in both direct and indirect ways, the Emperor was one of the most powerful beings to ever exist in the physical realm - and even against the C'tan which are basically gods of the material universe, he has the advantage of being a psyker.

So in conclusion his mastery level is that of someone who while mortally wounded is still capable of instantly killing and erasing from existence a demigod who is also the singular galactic chosen of the Dark Gods actively combining their power against said mortally wounded someone.

Sure there are many contradictions in the lore, but this is not one of them. The story of Horus saving the Emperor is told in The Wolf of Ash and Fire. The Emperor was never in danger. I will just spoil 1 thing. He grabbed an enormous, exploding plasma reactor powering an entire planet and hurled it through the warp. Etc. As for Malcador, he presents the same problem as the Emperor. Since we don't know what he is, any speculation on levels is imo irrelevant.

Jack of Blades
31-08-2015, 22:39
Sure there are many contradictions in the lore, but this is not one of them. The story of Horus saving the Emperor is told in The Wolf of Ash and Fire. The Emperor was never in danger. I will just spoil 1 thing. He grabbed an enormous, exploding plasma reactor powering an entire planet and hurled it through the warp. Etc. As for Malcador, he presents the same problem as the Emperor. Since we don't know what he is, any speculation on levels is imo irrelevant.

I see, well with that contradiction gone that's one less argument for putting the Emperor on the lower end of the "power scale".

7788
31-08-2015, 22:41
Btw, since we don't know what the emperor is, we can't say what his power in the warp was/is.

Scribe of Khorne
31-08-2015, 23:18
I had this debate in 6th. I put Magnus at 5, so Emp at 6. :]

Baneboss
31-08-2015, 23:38
I had this debate in 6th. I put Magnus at 5, so Emp at 6. :]

My thoughts too. The elegant way would be to not give Emperor (and perhaps Magnus too) a Mastery level, but give him different rules. For example:

1) He knows all powers (except malefic perhaps, not because he doesnt know, but he chooses not to use them)
2) He always pass or maybe on 2+ powers without spending any dice (in that way he doesnt collide with accumulating dice to use for other psykers, he uses powers completely outside).
3) He can manifest several powers a turn.
4) His powers cannot be denied by Deny the Witch rolls.

That way you have a powerful psyker but you dont exactly show how much, except that he is totally outside any form of measure.

What i would want to see however is not a magical powerhouse that is there only for casting (Magnus can be that) but a Warrior-Mage. He should have rules that makes him good in all fields, not just sitting and casting. After you cast something, the next thing in your mind should be to make him get into assault.

7788
31-08-2015, 23:53
My thoughts too. The elegant way would be to not give Emperor (and perhaps Magnus too) a Mastery level, but give him different rules. For example:

1) He knows all powers (except malefic perhaps, not because he doesnt know, but he chooses not to use them)
2) He always pass or maybe on 2+ powers without spending any dice (in that way he doesnt collide with accumulating dice to use for other psykers, he uses powers completely outside).
3) He can manifest several powers a turn.
4) His powers cannot be denied by Deny the Witch rolls.

That way you have a powerful psyker but you dont exactly show how much, except that he is totally outside any form of measure.

What i would want to see however is not a magical powerhouse that is there only for casting (Magnus can be that) but a Warrior-Mage. He should have rules that makes him good in all fields, not just sitting and casting. After you cast something, the next thing in your mind should be to make him get into assault.

I agree that based on current fluff and existing rules for other characters/units the Emperor would probably need an entire new rule-set. But assigning him a role would still be limiting, imo. The character will eventually appear in the game, since he has to logically be an option in any game that involves the Siege of Terra. Whether GW will fit him into a role or range of roles or any role, will imo determine how "fixed" the rule-set will be. And as I said, there is no concrete fluff about the emperor's nature, which would give a clearer indication of his role (if any). There is concrete, non-pov fluff about some of his properties ("unique being", "peerless individual in the galaxy" etc.). And a load of contradictions.

Scribe of Khorne
01-09-2015, 03:09
Thing is, he needs to be a POTENT psyker, to say the least, but still needs to be vulnerable. If we take the fluff as truth, he COULD have died to an Ork. An Ork on the scale of Primarchs, but an Ork all the same.

EDIT: And thats my 4000th post...underwhelming. :p

blackcherry
01-09-2015, 11:44
Thing is, he needs to be a POTENT psyker, to say the least, but still needs to be vulnerable. If we take the fluff as truth, he COULD have died to an Ork. An Ork on the scale of Primarchs, but an Ork all the same.

I have to agree with you there Scribe of Khorne - the thing I liked about the original background of the Emperor (before the Horus Heresy books amplified some of it to 10) was that he was still fallible and mortal - a very powerful Ork Warboss could still have him at a disadvantage if he was worn down. The style of the writing itself was quasi mythical, so having as a potent psycher who obliterated Horus's mind I always read as him doing the things people always do in those stories, drawing on reserves he never knew he had due to desperation.

Also, the Golden Throne accomplishments can be partially attributed to the fact that they feed psykers to the thing all day. Their souals do the bulk of the work of powering it, whilst the Emperors corpse is more a component and perhaps a broadcast signal for it, nothing more. Anything else attributed to the Emperor and his spirit on the Throne is admitted in universe as pure speculation on the part of scholars and high ranking members of the Imperium.

Poncho160
01-09-2015, 12:25
For those who don't know the Imperium (I am assuming most people do know ☺) has a grading system for psykers, here is an article from lexicanium detailing the levels:

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/The_Assignment

The top level psykers, an Alpha plus level, is capable of doing pretty much whatever they want and are incredibly incredibly rare, so the Emperor blatantly isn't an alpha plus level.

I would say the Emperor is probably a beta or delta level psyker.

nagash66
01-09-2015, 12:48
For those who don't know the Imperium (I am assuming most people do know ☺) has a grading system for psykers, here is an article from lexicanium detailing the levels:

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/The_Assignment

The top level psykers, an Alpha plus level, is capable of doing pretty much whatever they want and are incredibly incredibly rare, so the Emperor blatantly isn't an alpha plus level.

I would say the Emperor is probably a beta or delta level psyker.

Dude you really need to consult the info you bring to argument, yes the Imperium has a grading level, we know and we have examples of it, Gideon Ravernor for instance is 'high-level delta and low-level gamma'. The Eishenhorn/Ravenor books have plenty of levels and examples of their powers. Perfect example is the incident of mass high level Psyker escape and how they are handled.

We have also seen the Emperor in various accounts use his powers (i.e. force a whole legion, plus Primarch to their knees), he literally breaks the Imperial grading system, or strains the Alpha plus level depending on how you interpret the vague category limitations. Beta or delta as the Emperors level is a joke.

Poncho160
01-09-2015, 13:08
Dude you really need to consult the info you bring to argument, yes the Imperium has a grading level, we know and we have examples of it, Gideon Ravernor for instance is 'high-level delta and low-level gamma'. The Eishenhorn/Ravenor books have plenty of levels and examples of their powers. Perfect example is the incident of mass high level Psyker escape and how they are handled.

We have also seen the Emperor in various accounts use his powers (i.e. force a whole legion, plus Primarch to their knees), he literally breaks the Imperial grading system, or strains the Alpha plus level depending on how you interpret the vague category limitations. Beta or delta as the Emperors level is a joke.

If the Emperor was an Alpha Plus (which I don't believe he is) he could have easily wiped the floor with most of the forces he came across during the crusades all by his lonesome.

He is a highly trained no doubt. What examples do we have of his abilities?

narradisall
01-09-2015, 14:05
One man doesn't win a war. Even an alpha level would get worn down killing tens of thousands of armed men and a well placed shot could bring them down, otherwise alpha levels wouldn't never die.

Magnus crushed a Titan with his powers once but was weakened for a short while after.

7788
01-09-2015, 14:59
If the Emperor was an Alpha Plus (which I don't believe he is) he could have easily wiped the floor with most of the forces he came across during the crusades all by his lonesome.

He is a highly trained no doubt. What examples do we have of his abilities?

According to GW (more recently in the omniscient-narrator pov of The Wolf of Ash and Fire and Vengeful Spirit) practically nothing can stand in his way. But you don't need to know that to arrive to that conclusion. So far, there is no other lore where the 4 gods of Chaos had to actually get together to defeat one individual. And all they could get was a draw. Trying to divine current "levels" for the character as presented by GW is laughable.

Some justifications of why he didn't wipe the floor by himself are given in the stories mentioned.

1. Looks like a god, walks like a god, destroys like a god, therefore ...
2. Imperial Truth

One more spoiler from The Wolf of Ash and Fire, this may be a biggie, so you are warned.
The Chaos-engine powered Ork Warlord is crushing the life out of the Emperor. [OMG!!!] Horus gallantly tries to save him but da Boss is ready to send Horus to La-La-Land. What to do, what to do ... say, enough of that, as it is not quite cricket. Emperor: Fug it, I'm top dog in the galaxy so here is some godliness on your behind: KABLAM! Warp-annihilation!! Da Boss gets the Siege-of-Terra-Horus-treatment. He just disappears from existence period. The Emperor completely obliterates him. Yup. Not a scrap left. Will Horus get a deja-vu when this is happening to him? Did the Emperor show too much of his hand by exposing the true levels of his power, just to save his vat-spawn? You will pay to find out.

nagash66
01-09-2015, 15:12
If the Emperor was an Alpha Plus (which I don't believe he is) he could have easily wiped the floor with most of the forces he came across during the crusades all by his lonesome.

He is a highly trained no doubt. What examples do we have of his abilities?

Again, alpha plus come about in the imperial worlds, they are dealt with, methods and tools for dealing with them not only exist but are implemented all the time. Be they blunts, anti psyker weapons or simply a collection of lesser psyckers working together.

Examples of Emperor backround? We have the first hand accounts of marines who saw him do what you said he would do. i.e. wipe the floor single handendly ( the one i most like is when the iron warriors were fighting these undergound worm like xenos who would burrow into marine formations and were causing all the pain, the Emperor met them head on in the field and dragonballed z them into history), we have the fact that he could force a legion of marines and their gene father to kneel against their will, the fact that he could alter the memory of three of his sons and their legions without them knowing, his exploits on mars, etc.

Simple case? He beat the void dragon pvp.

I belive your overestimate what a single psycker can do, are alpha plus powerful? Incredible show, are they god like? No they are not, can they be dealt with? They can and are on what galacticly is routine by the I and other Imperial organisations.

They are still human, the Emperor is not.

Baneboss
01-09-2015, 16:17
Thing is, he needs to be a POTENT psyker, to say the least, but still needs to be vulnerable. If we take the fluff as truth, he COULD have died to an Ork. An Ork on the scale of Primarchs, but an Ork all the same.

EDIT: And thats my 4000th post...underwhelming. :p

Yes, but what if he did that on PURPOSE to test Horus - which later became his most favoured son? :)

Speculations...

He is basically so totally ******** OP that perhaps he shouldnt have rules. He only shows up to the battle on Vengeful Spirit. 4 Chaos Gods practically think of him as their equel.

But if he has to have rules then FW or GW or someone has to decide on something. He must have some rules even if not everyone agrees on them.

Edit:
Then if we (or rather - them) agree to give him rules then lets try to write them in an elegant way. For example give him a profile, stats, gear but write in the fluff that the Emperor is weakened after the fight with daemons in the terran webway (he basically fend off the daemon invasion by himself for... how long?). This way we still have the rules but we dont lose all that magic to speculate how strong is he exactly?

Lord Damocles
01-09-2015, 16:54
Simple case? He beat the void dragon pvp.
...weeeeeell... that's a debatable instance.

bittick
01-09-2015, 18:50
It's something people are never going to agree upon, because they can't agree what background info should apply.

Is the Emperor simply a man with great powers, or is he some sort of supernatural entity? Is he both? How does that translate to game statistics? Nobody is ever going to reach consensus on that. Personally, I don't think he'd have a mastery level in the game.

Power-wise, alpha-plus psykers are just the point where the Imperium stops being able to calculate it. They could be anywhere from a superhero (smashing tanks with their thoughts, mind-controlling a town) to Anthony Fremont from the Twilight Zone (be nice or he'll send you to the cornfield). I don't think Alpha-plus have a mastery level. I also don't think the Emperor ever displayed power like that. He certainly used more normal means of getting things done. He traveled on a ship, he had armies, he fought people with his hands, etc. Alpha-plus levels probably either 1) get taken out as soon as they are detected by a specialized Imperal hit-squad (their powers may manifest in different ways -- there's no reason to think they're all clairvoyant), or 2) they probably disappear to go off and explore the universe. That's the power level where it stops being a 40K game, or even an Epic game, and he becomes one of those encounters you have to talk your way through for a Star Trek RPG group. The guy runs around and plays Mr. Mxyzptlk and you've got to convince him to change the crew back from cartoon animals.

Lord Damocles
01-09-2015, 20:13
Power-wise, alpha-plus psykers are just the point where the Imperium stops being able to calculate it.
On the contrary, The Assignment carries on beyond Alpha Plus, and we're told that up to Gamma Plus has been measured (The Inquisition: An Illustrated Guide to the Secretive Protectors of the Imperium, pg.67)

Jack of Blades
01-09-2015, 20:41
Let me remind you guys that the Emperor was a reincarnation of all the thousands of shamans that existed on Earth when they had their great conclave, of all the "power levels" there were (and these guys were probably quite powerful to begin with even among the weaker ones, as they were able to reincarnate themselves). Thousands. The reasons why he didn't use his god-like powers to just do all the work himself are two: for there to be a plot, and the in-universe one of because he wanted humanity to develop, learn and use its own power, he didn't want to shepherd man unless he absolutely had to which you can see as a recurring theme in the story

7788
01-09-2015, 21:30
Let me remind you guys that the Emperor was a reincarnation of all the thousands of shamans that existed on Earth when they had their great conclave, of all the "power levels" there were (and these guys were probably quite powerful to begin with even among the weaker ones, as they were able to reincarnate themselves). Thousands. The reasons why he didn't use his god-like powers to just do all the work himself are two: for there to be a plot, and the in-universe one of because he wanted humanity to develop, learn and use its own power, he didn't want to shepherd man unless he absolutely had to which you can see as a recurring theme in the story

The origin of the emperor: it is part of the old lore that has not been explicitly contradicted yet. I kinda doubt GW will push this, as it may have probably been a hook into WH, before GW decided to publicize that the 2 environments were unrelated. But who knows.

The reasons that you mention for the emperor's behavior I think are plausible possibilities (and have been entered in the canon by GW as character pov in several recent occasions). They give enough flexibility to GW to take the fluff (and the game, and therefore the emperor's rules) in several different directions.

I think the only constant so far in the 40K universe is this: no one who ever went against the emperor was able to beat him. No one. As people have said, forget levels and rules, he might need his own expansion to make him fit into this. With editions, retcon- I mean chang- I mean "evolving" the character. I doubt GW is going to give away the shop just like that, with one publication. Of course they can always try to get stupider customers.

Karhedron
01-09-2015, 22:22
Power-wise, alpha-plus psykers are just the point where the Imperium stops being able to calculate it. They could be anywhere from a superhero (smashing tanks with their thoughts, mind-controlling a town) to Anthony Fremont from the Twilight Zone (be nice or he'll send you to the cornfield). I don't think Alpha-plus have a mastery level. I also don't think the Emperor ever displayed power like that. He certainly used more normal means of getting things done. He traveled on a ship, he had armies, he fought people with his hands, etc.
Actually according to Vengeful Spirit, he no longer needed a starship to get around after his little trip to Molech.

But the Emperor could not win the GC by himself. Firstly, he could only be in one place at a time. The Primarchs were his effort to spread himself around by creating sons to lead the Crusade. Secondly, the problem with godlike powers is the more you use them, the more you need to use them.

Marines are facing a big bad xenos so the Emperor unveils his awesomeness and roflstomps the xenos out of existence. Next time the Marines are up against a big bad, are they gonna fight their hardest or just chill and wait for the Big E to ride to the rescue again?

bittick
01-09-2015, 23:09
Let me remind you guys that the Emperor was a reincarnation of all the thousands of shamans that existed on Earth when they had their great conclave, of all the "power levels" there were (and these guys were probably quite powerful to begin with even among the weaker ones, as they were able to reincarnate themselves). Thousands.

Even if that's the case, that doesn't mean he's thousands of times more powerful than any other psyker. That's just his origin story.

bittick
01-09-2015, 23:23
Actually according to Vengeful Spirit, he no longer needed a starship to get around after his little trip to Molech.

But the Emperor could not win the GC by himself. Firstly, he could only be in one place at a time. The Primarchs were his effort to spread himself around by creating sons to lead the Crusade. Secondly, the problem with godlike powers is the more you use them, the more you need to use them.

Marines are facing a big bad xenos so the Emperor unveils his awesomeness and roflstomps the xenos out of existence. Next time the Marines are up against a big bad, are they gonna fight their hardest or just chill and wait for the Big E to ride to the rescue again?

219499

This psyker needs no army at all. She can definitely win the Great Crusade by herself.

So can this one:

7788
01-09-2015, 23:36
Actually according to Vengeful Spirit, he no longer needed a starship to get around after his little trip to Molech.

But the Emperor could not win the GC by himself. Firstly, he could only be in one place at a time. The Primarchs were his effort to spread himself around by creating sons to lead the Crusade. Secondly, the problem with godlike powers is the more you use them, the more you need to use them.

Marines are facing a big bad xenos so the Emperor unveils his awesomeness and roflstomps the xenos out of existence. Next time the Marines are up against a big bad, are they gonna fight their hardest or just chill and wait for the Big E to ride to the rescue again?

We don't really know what the emperor can do, so saying he could only be in one place doesn't really apply. He has (possibly) been shown to just pop up in the weirdest places using (possibly) the strangest personas to somehow (possibly) affect the outcome of actions for (definitely) incomprehensible reasons. In any case, the GC wasn't the point according to old (HH CCG-era) lore. According to that lore (hasn't yet been contradicted) the GC was just a play in the match of emperor vs. chaos. It could have been a forced play or a planned play or a sneaky play, it's of no consequence. The primarchs, the SM, all the human psykers etc. were the emperor's pawns in that single incident (the GC) of the long war to guarantee humanity wouldn't fall to chaos. Assuming I'm reading Merret's/King's/Priestley's ramblings correctly.

blackcherry
02-09-2015, 09:04
The Emperor, despite being a massive control freak and manipulator of people, still planned to let humanity take over from him eventually and fulfill their potential (hence his plans to introduce a central ruling government that the Astartes had no influence on).

So I think Karhedron has a point. He could whip out his pure untapped psychic potential (which has been shown in universe to increase the likelihood of warp storms and demons coming into existence, whilst exhausting himself at the same time) or he could use just enough of it to awe people and act as an inspirational figure that drove others to want to do their best in his name.

Meanwhile, that would leave him to attend to matters that he viewed as more important to the long term survival of the human race, which seemed to be freedom from reliance on the warp.

Tristelune
02-09-2015, 10:50
For those who don't know the Imperium (I am assuming most people do know ☺) has a grading system for psykers, here is an article from lexicanium detailing the levels:

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/The_Assignment

The top level psykers, an Alpha plus level, is capable of doing pretty much whatever they want and are incredibly incredibly rare, so the Emperor blatantly isn't an alpha plus level.

I would say the Emperor is probably a beta or delta level psyker.

This page rather tells that the Emperor is beyond the scale, above Alpha Plus:
http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Psyker

Romanov77
02-09-2015, 12:48
I remember the blurb about him blowing up titans with gestures.

Retconned?

7788
02-09-2015, 13:33
The Emperor, despite being a massive control freak and manipulator of people, still planned to let humanity take over from him eventually and fulfill their potential (hence his plans to introduce a central ruling government that the Astartes had no influence on).

So I think Karhedron has a point. He could whip out his pure untapped psychic potential (which has been shown in universe to increase the likelihood of warp storms and demons coming into existence, whilst exhausting himself at the same time) or he could use just enough of it to awe people and act as an inspirational figure that drove others to want to do their best in his name.

Meanwhile, that would leave him to attend to matters that he viewed as more important to the long term survival of the human race, which seemed to be freedom from reliance on the warp.

The attributes of the emperor (control freak etc) and whether he actually wanted humanity to take over, are not in-universe facts. Some characters think that the emperor is this way or that, but that's inconsequential. Rule-sets (and attendant levels) are not based on other characters' pov.

Where is it shown that the emperor is exhausting himself when using his psychic potential? I don't remember any instance of that in the lore.

bittick
02-09-2015, 14:31
The Emperor, despite being a massive control freak and manipulator of people, still planned to let humanity take over from him eventually and fulfill their potential (hence his plans to introduce a central ruling government that the Astartes had no influence on).

So I think Karhedron has a point. He could whip out his pure untapped psychic potential (which has been shown in universe to increase the likelihood of warp storms and demons coming into existence, whilst exhausting himself at the same time) or he could use just enough of it to awe people and act as an inspirational figure that drove others to want to do their best in his name.

Meanwhile, that would leave him to attend to matters that he viewed as more important to the long term survival of the human race, which seemed to be freedom from reliance on the warp.

I don't think setting up a complex administration is indicative of him intending to turn power over to the people. He'd tried letting humanity rule itself before, remember. And that didn't work. The whole point of forging the Imperium was that it was going to be his empire made manifest on Earth. It's a parallel to the belief that some denominations of Christianity have, where Christ returns to Earth and sets up a divine kingdom in the physical realm.

The Imperium wasn't supposed to be any normal government. It was supposed to be the perpetual rule of God on Earth. Even if he didn't want people to worship him (because of Chaos), he built a giant palace and from all indications he intended to rule forever. He needs the administration to rule over a million planets.

Spiney Norman
02-09-2015, 14:53
The Emperor has absolute mastery, otherwise known as 'Mastery Level D'

Azazyll
02-09-2015, 20:14
He's in a Catch 22 situation - the ultimate goal is the end of the Chaos Gods. That means no belief in gods. That means he can't act like a god. Hence the Imperial Truth, and refraining from his full potential. The Emperor is playing on a whole other level from evryone else but the Chaos Gods thrmselves, and possibly the most enlightened Eldar.

bittick
02-09-2015, 20:50
He's in a Catch 22 situation - the ultimate goal is the end of the Chaos Gods. That means no belief in gods. That means he can't act like a god. Hence the Imperial Truth, and refraining from his full potential. The Emperor is playing on a whole other level from evryone else but the Chaos Gods thrmselves, and possibly the most enlightened Eldar.

I disagree. The Chaos gods aren't really sentient entities in the same way as a human. It's not like Khorne sits there scratching himself, wondering about what he's going to do that day. They're more conceptual entities that humans assign motives to. The Emperor, on the other hand, was very clearly a guy. He might have been really powerful, might have been immortal, but he thinks and acts like a living being.

I don't think he's anywhere close to Chaos god level power, certainly not while he exists as a man. Now, on the Golden Throne, powered by thousands of dead psykers each day and the worship of trillions of humans, arguably he's getting ready to explode into existence like the human version of Slaanesh -- a new Warp god fueled by humanity.

Azazyll
03-09-2015, 00:12
He's still trying to avoid the very notion of the supernatural. The ultimate goal is to end human reliance on psykers and regular warp travel by repairing the webway, but more importantly to prevent the kind of worship that powers warp entities in any form - hence the Imperial Truth and the rebuke to Lorgar. My point is, even if he is that powerful he has a very good reason to conceal it.

But I'm holding to the old RoC lore until it's directly contradicted.

7788
03-09-2015, 00:44
The Emperor, on the other hand, was very clearly a guy. He might have been really powerful, might have been immortal, but he thinks and acts like a living being.

I don't think he's anywhere close to Chaos god level power, certainly not while he exists as a man.

Where do you see the Emperor being a man? There is no such clarity in the lore. The primarchs, and Malcador don't know what he is. GW has never clarified it.
We do know that he is at least as powerful as all 4 gods of Chaos combined. Because they had to pool their powers to beat him, and didn't. There is no other such known situation anywhere in the entire timeline of the universe.

Malagor
03-09-2015, 00:49
In some ways, he might have shown off his powers too much since the worshipping started despite his restraints.
And I don't think there is a point in trying to grade him according to a imperial system since we all know that they would never dare to grade the Emperor.
He does not apply to those scales, he is far beyond those.
If he ever shows up in game form, he will just like Nagash did in Fantasy, break whatever mastery level there is and be the highest level so he will be a lvl 5 until they do Magnus which I wouldn't be surprised if he turns out to be a level 5 in which Big-E will be a lvl 6.

bittick
03-09-2015, 03:33
Where do you see the Emperor being a man? There is no such clarity in the lore. The primarchs, and Malcador don't know what he is. GW has never clarified it.
We do know that he is at least as powerful as all 4 gods of Chaos combined. Because they had to pool their powers to beat him, and didn't. There is no other such known situation anywhere in the entire timeline of the universe.

"Man" might be too precise a word. He's a sentient being with rational thoughts, physical desires, emotions, etc. Though psychic, he experiences time in a linear manner. He can have friends, feel sorrow, pity, love. He can read a book, look at the clear blue sky, drink a beer, and so on. The Emperor existed as an individual. A singular mind.

Khorne cannot enjoy a poem. Khorne is the sum of the galaxy's hatred, violence, and anger. Khorne cannot know love, or peace, or kindness, any more than a hurricane can. Khorne is an entity, a cosmic storm of chaotic energy that can only briefly manifest anything resembling a conscious mind. Why do you think he cares not from where the blood flows? Because he's not actually a big dog-headed guy on an actual throne.

The Chaos gods "pooling their powers" doesn't mean anything. By their nature, their power is unfocused. Unfocusable, in fact. Don't mistake the literary device of saying that they brought all their power to bear against him as meaning that they were opposing him in any sort of direct psychic combat. The Chaos gods do not work that way. Horus was infused with their power. He was corrupted and was filled with the rage, the envy, the lust, and the nihilism of millions of souls. The Chaos gods are limited in their interaction with the physical realm unless there is a breach between the Warp and realspace. Given that Terra doesn't look like the Eye of Terror, we know that the incursion during the Heresy was significantly more limited.

Scribe of Khorne
03-09-2015, 03:59
Where do you see the Emperor being a man? There is no such clarity in the lore. The primarchs, and Malcador don't know what he is. GW has never clarified it.
We do know that he is at least as powerful as all 4 gods of Chaos combined. Because they had to pool their powers to beat him, and didn't. There is no other such known situation anywhere in the entire timeline of the universe.

Didnt they?

Think about it and look at everything published in the 30K realm. What we have in 40K times is the complete opposite of what the Emperor wanted. Chaos didnt need to kill the Emperor, they didnt need Horus to win, and they dont need Abaddon to win.

Chaos is eternal as long as the status quo is maintained.

Drop the Emperor unprotected into the Warp, and lets see how long he lasts. The Gods backing a mortal body (Horus) that can be obliterated doesnt really say to me Emperor >= Chaos Gods. Its Emperor > Mortal Body.

In the end everything the Emperor hoped to prevent, has taken place, right up till 11:59 on the ol' clock of doom where the lights go out an 40K gets Age of Sigmared.

Greavous
03-09-2015, 08:40
if a lord of change is 2-3 then the chaos gods msut be atleast 5 possibly up to 8, the chaos gods can view the unvierse at once so very powerful and the emepreor can fight mentally against them so he msut be atleast 7-8.

khorne 6
nurgle 7(and the eldar god he has at about 6)
slaanesh 7
the emperor 7
tzeetch 8

is how id rate the gods themselves

OuroborosTriumphant
03-09-2015, 10:04
I don't think setting up a complex administration is indicative of him intending to turn power over to the people. He'd tried letting humanity rule itself before, remember. And that didn't work. The whole point of forging the Imperium was that it was going to be his empire made manifest on Earth. It's a parallel to the belief that some denominations of Christianity have, where Christ returns to Earth and sets up a divine kingdom in the physical realm.

The Imperium wasn't supposed to be any normal government. It was supposed to be the perpetual rule of God on Earth. Even if he didn't want people to worship him (because of Chaos), he built a giant palace and from all indications he intended to rule forever. He needs the administration to rule over a million planets.

In the audiodrama "The Sigilite", Malcador says that he and the Emperor argue over whether there will ever come a time when humanity doesn't need Him anymore. The Emperor believes there will, Malcador thinks they will always neeed Him.

So, it the Horus Heresy continuity (I'm wary of assuming a singular "true" canon") unless Malcador is lying or the Emperor is lying to Malcador, the Emperor hopes to be able to give self-rule back to humanity in the future. However, given that Malcador and He continue to collaborate in spite of their different views on the matter, it is presumably far, far in the future.

Karhedron
03-09-2015, 10:34
I don't think that a difference of opinion like that would be enough to separate the Emperor and Malcador. I think that Malcador whole-heartedly agrees with everything the Emperor is trying to achieve, he is just a little less idealistic about how to achieve it and how successful it is likely to be.

The important thing to remember is that Malcador has been left ambiguous because he is less of a character and more of a plot device. The BL try to keep the Emperor off-screen as much as possible. The more he is shown, the greater the scope for contradictions, muck-ups and other things that take the shine off how "awesome" the Emperor is supposed to be. As it stands, he has already made several questionable decisions and has arguably contributed more the Heresy that the Chaos Gods have.

Malcador serves as a plot device as he carries the Emperor's authority. He can issue absolute commands and interact with other characters while keeping the Big E behind the scenes.

7788
03-09-2015, 12:58
I wonder where people get all these characterizations of the emperor. Objectively, GW has said very little of his character. In-universe, the characters closer to him simply don't know what to make of him. GW has said some things about his abilities. In-universe those closer to him are shown to have no idea where his power comes from, how powerful he really is etc etc.
The only in-universe indication is that the "unfocusable" Chaos makes a coherent plan to stop whatever he's doing. No other documented example of this exists in the universe. Why should they bother? Why should he?

I think a lot of the posts assume too much. And we will eventually get a better idea because he will appear as a character. Otherwise, HH (the game) has no meaningful conclusion.

In the HH CCG fluff (which introduced Malcador, the Sisters of Silence, etc. etc.) the picture that emerges is this:
The emperor explains the HH as a plan by some "beings" of the warp who "call themselves gods" (he is dismissive). He says he's been tussling with them since ... well, for a very long time. He says they always try to put a wrench in his plans. He implies the GC is part of his plan to make humanity impervious to the dark. etc etc. It's not the end-all and be-all. It sets the stage for something else, which (I think) is the Imperial Webway, which sets the stage for something else again. etc.

No one knows what his power in the warp is. In-universe, Magnus finds out his power is far below the emperor's even though Magnus has been "gifted" certain power by Tzceentch.

I don't know of any other character in the 40K universe that chaos considers an "Anathema" (google it). The outcome of the HH is a draw. Sure, the plan was leaked. Chaos somehow realized that the "Imperium" would pose an existential threat. If chaos is so afraid of the emperor to harrass is him for millennia before the HH, the fact that he's still around means the job is not done. What the emperor does or is in 999.M41 is as much conjecture as anything he was doing 10000 years prior. If he's immortal, what's 10000 or 1000000 years?!?! Who knows what he's doing? Will he pop-up all of a sudden? Has he popped up? There's all kinds of possibilities. But that's for GW background writers to get worked over. I'm not here to give anybody ideas.

Karhedron
03-09-2015, 14:00
I wonder where people get all these characterizations of the emperor. Objectively, GW has said very little of his character. In-universe, the characters closer to him simply don't know what to make of him. GW has said some things about his abilities. In-universe those closer to him are shown to have no idea where his power comes from, how powerful he really is etc etc.

Actually there is quite a lot that can be inferred directly or indirectly from the HH books. How do we know anything about a person's character? In the real world we do not get someone else's inner monologue to read so we have to judge their character based on their actions.

Even though he is "onscreen" relatively little in the HH books, we see the effects of the Emperor's actions on numerous occasions and they paint a fairly consistent picture of someone who doesn't really "get" social human interaction. There are several instances where he mishandles his "sons" yet still expects them to behave loyally. Angron, Lorgar and Magnus (to a lesser extent) all suffer from this. He denies Angron his honour, Lorgar his faith and Magnus his psychic potential despite the fact that he crafted these traits into their psyches.

Another example of his failure to get these subtleties is where Malcador remembers suggesting that the Primarchs be created as sisters to reduce the sense of rivalry. The Emperor dismissed that as joke despite the fact that Malcador was serious (and also right, with hindsight). There could be different reasons for the Emperor's behaviour (e.g. he is "big picture" guy, he has a lot on his plate, he is a gestalt, etc.) but the consistent picture is painted of someone who fails to understand human social interaction despite his power and wisdom.

Also we do know about the source of his power. In the original RoC book, the Emperor is described as being a gestalt formed from the souls of the shamen of prehistoric Earth who all committed suicide simultaneously to be reincarnated in a single body. The old Draco novel even shows parts of the Emperor's mind arguing with each other (although this could be partly due to 10,000 years stuck on the golden commode).

While this fluff has not been explicitly repeated in the HH novels, it has not been contradicted either. One point that has been stated at least twice in the HH novels is that the Emperor somehow stole a portion of the Chaos Gods' power on Molech. Horus attempts the same thing during "Vengeful Spirit" and emerges believing he has earned the power he receives on his own merit (although if older fluff from later in the Heresy remains valid, the Chaos Gods let him have the power to believe he had mastered them while in fact using him as a pawn to attack the Emperor).

So while there is not a big chunk of text describing the Emperor's thoughts, motivations and power, there is actually a lot of info scattered through the HH novels. So while we do not have a complete picture, we have enough pieces to estimate certain aspects of the Emperor. You just have to read the whole lot and pull the disparate pieces together. That is the beauty of a forum like this with lots of fluff-fans. Everyone contributes the pieces of the fluff that stood out to them and so pieces are less likely to be missed or forgotten than if one person tries to do it alone.

Karhedron
03-09-2015, 14:06
I don't know of any other character in the 40K universe that chaos considers an "Anathema" (google it). The outcome of the HH is a draw.

No, the HH is not a draw. Horus loses but arguably Chaos wins. The 10,000 year history of the Imperium has been one of constant war and suffering. Remember what the tagline for 40K is.

"There is no peace among the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter and the laughter of thirsting gods."

The Chaos Gods are laughing because from their PoV, constant warfare is victory. Just because Chaos has not overrun the entire galaxy does not mean they have lost. They have ensured that all the dark emotions they feed on have flowed continuously for longer than any other period in human history. The fact that the Imperium believes it is standing firm against the darkness just adds to the irony.

7788
03-09-2015, 15:20
Actually there is quite a lot that can be inferred directly or indirectly from the HH books. How do we know anything about a person's character? In the real world we do not get someone else's inner monologue to read so we have to judge their character based on their actions.

Even though he is "onscreen" relatively little in the HH books, we see the effects of the Emperor's actions on numerous occasions and they paint a fairly consistent picture of someone who doesn't really "get" social human interaction. There are several instances where he mishandles his "sons" yet still expects them to behave loyally. Angron, Lorgar and Magnus (to a lesser extent) all suffer from this. He denies Angron his honour, Lorgar his faith and Magnus his psychic potential despite the fact that he crafted these traits into their psyches.

Another example of his failure to get these subtleties is where Malcador remembers suggesting that the Primarchs be created as sisters to reduce the sense of rivalry. The Emperor dismissed that as joke despite the fact that Malcador was serious (and also right, with hindsight). There could be different reasons for the Emperor's behaviour (e.g. he is "big picture" guy, he has a lot on his plate, he is a gestalt, etc.) but the consistent picture is painted of someone who fails to understand human social interaction despite his power and wisdom.

Also we do know about the source of his power. In the original RoC book, the Emperor is described as being a gestalt formed from the souls of the shamen of prehistoric Earth who all committed suicide simultaneously to be reincarnated in a single body. The old Draco novel even shows parts of the Emperor's mind arguing with each other (although this could be partly due to 10,000 years stuck on the golden commode).

While this fluff has not been explicitly repeated in the HH novels, it has not been contradicted either. One point that has been stated at least twice in the HH novels is that the Emperor somehow stole a portion of the Chaos Gods' power on Molech. Horus attempts the same thing during "Vengeful Spirit" and emerges believing he has earned the power he receives on his own merit (although if older fluff from later in the Heresy remains valid, the Chaos Gods let him have the power to believe he had mastered them while in fact using him as a pawn to attack the Emperor).

So while there is not a big chunk of text describing the Emperor's thoughts, motivations and power, there is actually a lot of info scattered through the HH novels. So while we do not have a complete picture, we have enough pieces to estimate certain aspects of the Emperor. You just have to read the whole lot and pull the disparate pieces together. That is the beauty of a forum like this with lots of fluff-fans. Everyone contributes the pieces of the fluff that stood out to them and so pieces are less likely to be missed or forgotten than if one person tries to do it alone.

We don't really know that the primarchs are his "sons" even figuratively. He calls them so, but so what? He made them, apparently, as vat-spawn, and then something went wrong. We cannot make value judgments about how he should have behaved unless we know the story in more detail. Ok, sure, be kind to laboratory animals, even entirely artificial ones. I don't consider character pov (what Malcador thinks or says about the emperor, or what Horus thinks or says about the emperor, or what Chaos says about the emperor) as providing anything concrete. That is not how GW does things in my experience. They like to put hooks into place, and whether they follow is determined by other things.

Sure the RoC fluff is not explicitly contradicted, as pointed out before. Since it comes from an era where Fantasy and WH40K were not yet formally "decoupled" that gestalt-emperor was a nice hook into both (i.e. could he have been Sigmar?) But the current telling (and >25 years of universe history) make it increasingly unlikely. Similarly with the Draco books, which had many other very interesting hints about the emperor. They haven't been contradicted. But they are also just hanging there. In the meantime, GW develops the story in ways that may be making them increasingly irrelevant.

The only constant seems to be that the emperor has the attention of the chaos gods forever. Saying that his mastery level is 7 or 70 or 700 is incongruous. If he is powerful enough for the most powerful warp beings, then what?

blackcherry
03-09-2015, 16:35
I think the misapprehension that people always seem to suffer under is that the Emperor is some sort of equal to the chaos gods. It traces back to the original pieces written in a somewhat mythological style, but still from the PoV of the Imperium hundreds of years after the event itself. So people equating the poetic and flowery language of ideas like 'the Chaos Gods poured all their strength in Horus' is just that; poetic language meant to establish that against the odds and someone in many ways his equal, the Emperor won. It isn't literal

Now that isn't saying Horus didn't have some chaotic power running through him; we know he had some at least due to what has been established in the HH books. But to then assume that it means the Emperor had the power to beat them all up on the psychic realm is a massive leap of logic.

The chaos gods themselves are raw emotion, whose attentions (if it can be called that in any meaningful way) flitter from incident to incident through all time and space at an astounding rate. Yes, the Emperor may have caught their attention for a period of time because he was someone with the influence, longevity of life and ability to think in the 'big picture' long term that would have reduced their influence on humanity and partially cut them off from the things that feeds them; raw emotion of a galactic scale. But then so do random champions calling their name and even those who don't!

They simply don't think in any way we could comprehend, so to assume the Emperor could leap into the warp and start beating them up is a stretch. Just as us looking at an ant hill draws us in for a moment before we go on to do other things, so does the Emperor to the Chaos Gods. Now is he a particularly amusing ant, a dog standing to the side of the anthill of it scratching it's leg or another person on the other side of the anthill peering at it with equal focus?

We simply don't know, but equating language written in the tone of myth as fact doesn't do anyone justice.

7788
03-09-2015, 19:43
I think the misapprehension that people always seem to suffer under is that the Emperor is some sort of equal to the chaos gods. It traces back to the original pieces written in a somewhat mythological style, but still from the PoV of the Imperium hundreds of years after the event itself. So people equating the poetic and flowery language of ideas like 'the Chaos Gods poured all their strength in Horus' is just that; poetic language meant to establish that against the odds and someone in many ways his equal, the Emperor won. It isn't literal

Now that isn't saying Horus didn't have some chaotic power running through him; we know he had some at least due to what has been established in the HH books. But to then assume that it means the Emperor had the power to beat them all up on the psychic realm is a massive leap of logic.

In 40K knowledge of Horus and the Heresy is proscribed. Nobody can talk about it even as mythology. Knowledge of Traitor Marines earns you a mind-wipe or worse. Knowing there is something called "Chaos" that can encroach in daily reality definitely earns you worse than a mind wipe, as you may summarily be considered dangerous (unless you know the right people). There is no language, flowery or otherwise, that can mythologize a taboo subject.

A few things we do know as in-universe facts: the emperor knew about the webway before the GC. How? I'm sure the Eldar didn't rush to tell him. There is no reference that anybody else non-Eldar had that knowledge at the time.
He's been around at least a few scores of millenniums, possibly much more as implied in a HH short.
Nobody can tell or remember what he looks like. Different witnesses have wildly different impressions.
He appears in all kinds of faraway places seemingly out of nowhere. His absences from other places don't seem to be noticed.
He just knows everybody (by name).
Broken arcane machinery/weaponry that Mechanicum can't fix? Why, no problem.
Made 21 overpowering beings that each have just a fraction of his abilities. Two of those are Alpharius & Omegon. Are they inscrutable? Magnify by the number of your choice and there's the emperor.
It seems he engineered the whole Nikaea business way before anyone accused Magnus of sorcery.
He knows how the HH will end.
He can sneak up on the 2nd most powerful psyker in the Imperium (Malcador. Magnus may be powerful but he's also portrayed as a dummy)
He is completely untouched by the warp. He can open a warp rift like you open a can of beans. And hurl an huge exploding plasma reactor in it, then just fold it back neatly.
What else? How about erasing matter & energy? That's what happens to Horus. As he did to the Ork warlord that Horus "saved" him from: he obliterated both his realspace essence AND his warp essence into nothing.

Has GW painted itself into a corner here? I don't know. But the HH has put him in a whole other category.

EDIT: another throwaway trait: he makes psykers. And ward them from chaos while they are dealing with the warp, even when they are looking at it directly.

Mellow
03-09-2015, 20:15
Where is it shown that the emperor is exhausting himself when using his psychic potential? I don't remember any instance of that in the lore.

In Vengeful Spirit when he comes out of the Realm of Chaos (presumably after spending quite a long time there) he comes out and needs the other perpetual to help him up the stairs to get out of the cave or whatever it is. You could argue that he is exhausted there, whether that is physically or psychically is another thing.


Where do you see the Emperor being a man? There is no such clarity in the lore. The primarchs, and Malcador don't know what he is. GW has never clarified it.
We do know that he is at least as powerful as all 4 gods of Chaos combined. Because they had to pool their powers to beat him, and didn't. There is no other such known situation anywhere in the entire timeline of the universe.

The Emperor has always been and will also be described as "just a man". It's been in the lore since the 1990's as far as I remember.

Mellow
03-09-2015, 20:35
The attributes of the emperor (control freak etc) and whether he actually wanted humanity to take over, are not in-universe facts. Some characters think that the emperor is this way or that, but that's inconsequential. Rule-sets (and attendant levels) are not based on other characters' pov.

Where is it shown that the emperor is exhausting himself when using his psychic potential? I don't remember any instance of that in the lore.


Where do you see the Emperor being a man? There is no such clarity in the lore. The primarchs, and Malcador don't know what he is. GW has never clarified it.
We do know that he is at least as powerful as all 4 gods of Chaos combined. Because they had to pool their powers to beat him, and didn't. There is no other such known situation anywhere in the entire timeline of the universe.


In 40K knowledge of Horus and the Heresy is proscribed. Nobody can talk about it even as mythology. Knowledge of Traitor Marines earns you a mind-wipe or worse. Knowing there is something called "Chaos" that can encroach in daily reality definitely earns you worse than a mind wipe, as you may summarily be considered dangerous (unless you know the right people). There is no language, flowery or otherwise, that can mythologize a taboo subject.

A few things we do know as in-universe facts: the emperor knew about the webway before the GC. How? I'm sure the Eldar didn't rush to tell him. There is no reference that anybody else non-Eldar had that knowledge at the time.
He's been around at least a few scores of millenniums, possibly much more as implied in a HH short.
Nobody can tell or remember what he looks like. Different witnesses have wildly different impressions.
He appears in all kinds of faraway places seemingly out of nowhere. His absences from other places don't seem to be noticed.
He just knows everybody (by name).
Broken arcane machinery/weaponry that Mechanicum can't fix? Why, no problem.
Made 21 overpowering beings that each have just a fraction of his abilities. Two of those are Alpharius & Omegon. Are they inscrutable? Magnify by the number of your choice and there's the emperor.
It seems he engineered the whole Nikaea business way before anyone accused Magnus of sorcery.
He knows how the HH will end.
He can sneak up on the 2nd most powerful psyker in the Imperium (Malcador. Magnus may be powerful but he's also portrayed as a dummy)
He is completely untouched by the warp. He can open a warp rift like you open a can of beans. And hurl an huge exploding plasma reactor in it, then just fold it back neatly.
What else? How about erasing matter & energy? That's what happens to Horus. As he did to the Ork warlord that Horus "saved" him from: he obliterated both his realspace essence AND his warp essence into nothing.

Has GW painted itself into a corner here? I don't know. But the HH has put him in a whole other category.

EDIT: another throwaway trait: he makes psykers. And ward them from chaos while they are dealing with the warp, even when they are looking at it directly.


He also travelled back to Terra from Molech ... without a starship. The one he used to get there was a one way trip device ... which he designed and built during the age of strife or before the unity wars (or possibly before then).

bittick
03-09-2015, 20:57
In 40K knowledge of Horus and the Heresy is proscribed. Nobody can talk about it even as mythology. Knowledge of Traitor Marines earns you a mind-wipe or worse. Knowing there is something called "Chaos" that can encroach in daily reality definitely earns you worse than a mind wipe, as you may summarily be considered dangerous (unless you know the right people). There is no language, flowery or otherwise, that can mythologize a taboo subject.

A few things we do know as in-universe facts: the emperor knew about the webway before the GC. How? I'm sure the Eldar didn't rush to tell him. There is no reference that anybody else non-Eldar had that knowledge at the time.
He's been around at least a few scores of millenniums, possibly much more as implied in a HH short.
Nobody can tell or remember what he looks like. Different witnesses have wildly different impressions.
He appears in all kinds of faraway places seemingly out of nowhere. His absences from other places don't seem to be noticed.
He just knows everybody (by name).
Broken arcane machinery/weaponry that Mechanicum can't fix? Why, no problem.
Made 21 overpowering beings that each have just a fraction of his abilities. Two of those are Alpharius & Omegon. Are they inscrutable? Magnify by the number of your choice and there's the emperor.
It seems he engineered the whole Nikaea business way before anyone accused Magnus of sorcery.
He knows how the HH will end.
He can sneak up on the 2nd most powerful psyker in the Imperium (Malcador. Magnus may be powerful but he's also portrayed as a dummy)
He is completely untouched by the warp. He can open a warp rift like you open a can of beans. And hurl an huge exploding plasma reactor in it, then just fold it back neatly.
What else? How about erasing matter & energy? That's what happens to Horus. As he did to the Ork warlord that Horus "saved" him from: he obliterated both his realspace essence AND his warp essence into nothing.

Has GW painted itself into a corner here? I don't know. But the HH has put him in a whole other category.

EDIT: another throwaway trait: he makes psykers. And ward them from chaos while they are dealing with the warp, even when they are looking at it directly.

I am not really sure what point you are trying to make in all of this. Most of the things you list don't really mean anything. They particularly don't mean much when he's got access to a lot of advanced technology, and we don't get a first person perspective on what he is doing. A lot of the things you list aren't really psionic related. And a lot of the things you list, I question. He clearly doesn't know how the Horus Heresy will end, because otherwise he wouldn't have trusted Horus the way he did. And for every incredible thing you point out that the Emperor has done, we can point to an equally clueless act that left his plans in ruins.

Nobody in this thread, as far as I know, has been arguing that the Emperor is a Mastery level 3 or 4 psychic. Everyone has said that he's beyond the scale that is used in normal 40K games. The question is, how far beyond that scale is he? I'm saying that there are a lot of characters in various types of science fiction who far outstrip the Emperor's abilities. Do those characters exist in 40K? Given that 40K is a grim-dark parody of a lot of sci-fi, I think it's safe to say that some version of those characters exist. There's probably an Anthony Fremont analog in the 40K universe. There's probably a Molecule Man, a Franklin Richards, a Q, that guy from Forbidden Planet, a Dr. Manhattan, maybe a Metron. The fact is, sci-fi is full of characters who make the Emperor look like a little girl. Especially cheesy 50s and 60s sci-fi. Especially Star Trek and comic books. I haven't seen anything to put the Emperor anywhere close to that stuff.

Does that mean he's not powerful? No, of course he's powerful. But when the game has oblique references to the kind of characters who appear in other sci-fi worlds, the Emperor's feats don't look as amazing.

Scribe of Khorne
03-09-2015, 21:39
The HH is not a draw. The Imperium is shattered, the amazing force that was the Great Crusade is sundered, and the dream of the Imperial Truth dies completely. Meanwhile you now have a split humanity, you have the creation of the God-Emperor, humanity is shackled and enslaved by the Imperium, and in the end (40K) its 'we are all going down' time.

The HH is not a draw, at all. The Emperor's dream died, to be perverted over then next 10K years to the exact opposite of what was fought for.

Soak in that grim dark. ;)

7788
04-09-2015, 02:13
The list of the emperor actions I posted are in-universe facts. They are described outright, in a non-pov manner, or are strongly implied, in official sources. On the contrary, when one thinks the emperor character "clueless" is an opinion. We know he lies. We do not know he's clueless, especially since 1. We have very little info about his motivations and 2. there is very strong "factual" evidence he's not. If he is clueless, who isn't? Somebody who was able to do all the stuff he did and also have a clue? Let's be serious.

So 40K is grimdark. What was 28K? According to GW, worse. What about 29K? Terra heading for oblivion, human worlds lunchboxes for chaos. According to GW. What about the GC? Conflict on a galactic scale & very grimdark if you're non-human or non-complying.

Is chaos having a better time of it in M41 than in M29? (according to GW) Would there be anyone worth calling human if the HH was actually a victory for chaos? Please don't say chaos is inexorable. According to GW, so is the emperor. He just won't go away. The game continues. As a business strategy, it's not a bad thing for GW.

@Mellow: Could you pinpoint the chapter in Vengeful Spirit? And thanks for the info.

Karhedron
04-09-2015, 09:14
A few things we do know as in-universe facts: the emperor knew about the webway before the GC. How? I'm sure the Eldar didn't rush to tell him. There is no reference that anybody else non-Eldar had that knowledge at the time.
Given that he had already unearthed the Golden Throne (a webway gate of some sort), he had clearly worked out what it opened into.

If he got the knowledge from a 3rd party then the AdMech are a possibilty. It has been implied that Mars is a Necron Tombworld (or at least has a C'tan shard of the Void Dragon imprisoned there). The Necrons knew about the Webway and managed to breach it during the later stages of the War in Heaven using Dolmen Gates.


Nobody can tell or remember what he looks like. Different witnesses have wildly different impressions.

Generally true but Corax is one exception. He can see the "glamour" the Emperor projects (or maybe generates subconsciously) but he is also able to see through it. Apparently the Emperor has a rather plain face.

narradisall
04-09-2015, 12:27
I always wondered where the "lorgar looks most like the emperor" came from. I saw it mentioned enough in fluff both old and HH stuff but in the HH at least the emperors visage seems to shift.

I thought in one of the books corax asked if he saw the emperors true visage when he went back to terra but it was left vague.

7788
04-09-2015, 13:06
I want to clarify the point of the emperor knowing the outcome of the HH. This has been written in in The Outcast Dead. The astropath Kai Zulane has been "implanted" with this big secret. The big secret is how the IoM c. M41 looks like, and why. Finally, he gets to "tell" the emperor, only to realize that the emperor knew already (jeez!!). So then Zulane says, WTF? you're gonna die. And the emperor is like, sure. GW (through McNeill) has the emperor character say: just because I know something about a thing doesn't necessarily mean I can do anything about it. And just because I can do something about a thing doesn't necessarily mean I know anything about it. But the clincher for me is what GW has the emperor say next: "sometimes all you can do is prevent your opponent from winning". Who is he talking about? Not Horus, he knows he may completely obliterate him in the end. He's talking about his "opponent". Who can that be? And if you can't win and your opponent can't win what would the result be?

Now since Zulane went and killed himself there is no other witness to this. So GW can easily change it by saying, well he was lying to Zulane. Or they can say, no these are the in-universe facts. He wasn't lying to Zulane because he knew that Zulane disturbed as he was would just go over the top with these realizations. Why lie to a dead man?

7788
04-09-2015, 13:16
I don't remember if Corax actually saw the emperor's true face or the face the emperor let him see. I will check the wording in Deliverance Lost.

As for the webway I said that there is no evidence any non-Eldar had that knowledge at the time. I am aware of the Necron attempts to get in there but that was millions of years prior. I don't know of any Necrons poking around the webway c. M29.

Karhedron
04-09-2015, 13:31
According to the 5th and 7th ed Necrons codices, the first Necrons to awaken from hibernation witnessed the Great Crusade and Horus Heresy. Still, I doubt the AdMech had any tame Crypteks on Mars spilling their secrets.

What I really meant was that if Mars had a history of Necron occupation then there might have been information and/or tech useful for the webway project there.

Mellow
05-09-2015, 15:25
@Mellow: Could you pinpoint the chapter in Vengeful Spirit? And thanks for the info.

Page 1271, chapter 22. Although that is on iBooks so the page number may be wrong. Alivia remembers helping The Emperor back up the steps to the cave.

Scribe of Khorne
05-09-2015, 17:31
I want to clarify the point of the emperor knowing the outcome of the HH. This has been written in in The Outcast Dead. The astropath Kai Zulane has been "implanted" with this big secret. The big secret is how the IoM c. M41 looks like, and why. Finally, he gets to "tell" the emperor, only to realize that the emperor knew already (jeez!!). So then Zulane says, WTF? you're gonna die. And the emperor is like, sure. GW (through McNeill) has the emperor character say: just because I know something about a thing doesn't necessarily mean I can do anything about it. And just because I can do something about a thing doesn't necessarily mean I know anything about it. But the clincher for me is what GW has the emperor say next: "sometimes all you can do is prevent your opponent from winning". Who is he talking about? Not Horus, he knows he may completely obliterate him in the end. He's talking about his "opponent". Who can that be? And if you can't win and your opponent can't win what would the result be?

Now since Zulane went and killed himself there is no other witness to this. So GW can easily change it by saying, well he was lying to Zulane. Or they can say, no these are the in-universe facts. He wasn't lying to Zulane because he knew that Zulane disturbed as he was would just go over the top with these realizations. Why lie to a dead man?

We know what happens when Chaos wins. End Times and Age of Sigmar.

We know that what happened, wasnt the Emperor winning.

I still think its plainly obvious that the Emperor doesnt get what he wants, and Chaos is more powerful for it. If Chaos hasnt WON, they are winning with 30 seconds left in the 4th Quarter. :p

7788
05-09-2015, 20:43
That's GW's slogan and sales tool but doesn't hold up to scrutiny since as far as we know the IoM has been like that forever. Was it less in peril of chaos in M33 or M38? Why? You can say, what's 10000 years to chaos? Well, what's 10000 years to the emperor? The proper comparison is between 999.M28 & 999.M41. What's the difference as far as GW's human race is concerned?
If the GC was the emperor's play and the HH was chaos' counter-play (with humanity as a prize) none is conclusive. We are back at the situation as existed @ the end of the Age of Strife, plus a new actor, the IoM.

7788
05-09-2015, 21:06
Page 1271, chapter 22. Although that is on iBooks so the page number may be wrong. Alivia remembers helping The Emperor back up the steps to the cave.

Thanks, I reread it. Yes, the perpetual (sigh) did help this god (as stated) because that extreme effort exhausted him. She was also unable to shield herself from his power. He went to a realm that no being was ever able to breach and live (according to Horus, who's already purely evil). But the emperor could not seal the gate, he could only close it. In function similar to Delia Cythera in Mechanicum, the perpetual was there as a watch.

I think this is the clearest yet passage that states
1. The emperor is a god
2. He stole something from the RoC

There are several inconsistencies here, as is obvious. Don't rush to answer them unless you work for GW and you are cleared to blab about future releases. It has been shown again & again the development of the background takes into account continuity and logic only if they don't contravene GW's business. That business is not the development of fluff for its own sake.

randian
05-09-2015, 21:36
The only evidence we have that the Emperor stole anything is Ingethel's vision to Horus, which of course could be (and likely is) a lie designed to sway him to Chaos. What is bizarre about it is I see no reason why Horus would be offended at the idea the Emperor stole from them, yet he clearly is.

Jack of Blades
05-09-2015, 22:02
What is bizarre about it is I see no reason why Horus would be offended at the idea the Emperor stole from them, yet he clearly is.

He probably didn't really like the idea that the Emperor would need to do something so lowly as (according to Ingethel) "stealing", which by then, the hold Chaos had on him could blow it up to real discontent.

Mellow
06-09-2015, 11:30
It's fairly conclusive proof that he "stole" something. Although stealing is a relative term when it's about Gods fighting each other. Perhaps he stole the essence required to create the Primarchs souls, or perhaps the Chaos Gods created a test for The Emperor saying if he wins they will give him the power not expecting him to win. Obviously if he then were to win said test then they might get annoyed and say he stole when all he did was win.

Alivia said she also knew he had stolen something from the RoC. Plus Horus knew he had "earned" his God Power up when exiting the RoC where as he knew The Emperor had stolen it without earning it. I think it's all perspective, as well as the fact that it's a war and who would really care if The Emperor stole something with the goal of achieving something to win said war. Surely it's then about making sure you're in the best possible position and have all the tactical advantages you can get.

Or maybe The Emperor really is a God taken physical form with the intent on destroying the other Gods so that he can rule the immaterium?

7788
06-09-2015, 14:16
At some point it is said about the emperor that when he went into RoC that time (emphasis on that particular time) he came back with "power he had stolen". If he's a unique "god" who can exist in the RoC & realspace at will (Illuminati-like to bring back Draco into this), what "power" can he possibly be missing? And why does he have to go there and steal it? We have several perspectives into the stealing-from-chaos theme from Vengeful Spirit and other sources, but they don't make it less incongruous. It's going to be fun to scrutinize how GW is going to explain this, without giving out way more detail about what the emperor character actually represents.

7788
06-09-2015, 14:54
Or maybe The Emperor really is a God taken physical form with the intent on destroying the other Gods so that he can rule the immaterium?

I wouldn't give GW any ideas. In any case, this idea, although a good one, has its own serious problems.
And it may be too close to the old concept of Malal, which I believe GW cannot use due to an IP dispute.

Mellow
06-09-2015, 15:38
Wouldn't that be particularly juicy. The Emperor is Malal. The Chaos fighting Chaos God. The only way to try and win was to birth a "mortal" form via the ritualistic sacrifice of Malal worshipping Shaman's on ancient Earth.

Karhedron
06-09-2015, 21:35
It's fairly conclusive proof that he "stole" something. Although stealing is a relative term when it's about Gods fighting each other. Perhaps he stole the essence required to create the Primarchs souls, or perhaps the Chaos Gods created a test for The Emperor saying if he wins they will give him the power not expecting him to win. Obviously if he then were to win said test then they might get annoyed and say he stole when all he did was win.

Agreed, the old statement that "all's fair in love and war" seems to apply. Also, it is worth considering that the Chaos Gods may well consider the sum total of humanity's souls to be their rightful property/food. Anything that weakens their influence or interferes with their "feeding" might be seen as stealing from their PoV. Heck, even the Shamen reincarnating as the Emperor to avoid being consumed by the Chaos Gods might be seen as stealing if the big 4 were looking forward to their next tasty morsel.

randian
06-09-2015, 21:53
The simplest answer is they're lying to Horus, just like they did on Davin.

Scribe of Khorne
06-09-2015, 22:45
That's GW's slogan and sales tool but doesn't hold up to scrutiny since as far as we know the IoM has been like that forever. Was it less in peril of chaos in M33 or M38? Why? You can say, what's 10000 years to chaos? Well, what's 10000 years to the emperor? The proper comparison is between 999.M28 & 999.M41. What's the difference as far as GW's human race is concerned?
If the GC was the emperor's play and the HH was chaos' counter-play (with humanity as a prize) none is conclusive. We are back at the situation as existed @ the end of the Age of Strife, plus a new actor, the IoM.

Actually you have another new Actor. Chaos Space Marines.

Oh and another, Necrons.
Oh and another, Nids.
Oh and another, Tau.

You have the Eye, the Dark Mechanicus, you have 10K more years of suffering and death.

Its not even REMOTELY comparable. :p

Karhedron
06-09-2015, 22:47
The simplest answer is they're lying to Horus, just like they did on Davin.

The implication that has been made more than once is that Daemons do not lie but they will usually try to twist the truth in the most misleading way. Now Erebus was downright lying.

7788
07-09-2015, 00:59
Actually you have another new Actor. Chaos Space Marines.

Oh and another, Necrons.
Oh and another, Nids.
Oh and another, Tau.

You have the Eye, the Dark Mechanicus, you have 10K more years of suffering and death.

Its not even REMOTELY comparable. :p

Only the CSM were the result of the HH. Even DM (chaos hereteks) have been implied to have existed before Unification.

7788
07-09-2015, 01:17
The implication that has been made more than once is that Daemons do not lie but they will usually try to twist the truth in the most misleading way. Now Erebus was downright lying.

Ok, they are not lying. They are just not telling the truth.
I see.