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BobBell
04-09-2015, 10:03
Hello all

In Imperial Armour 4 ‘The Anphelion Project’, Imperial researchers are studying captured Tyranid specimens. The type of Tyranid is not specified, but described as ‘small’.

The captured Tyranids evolved, growing wings in a (failed) attempt to escape their fences. Eventually however they do escape, and destroy the research base. By the time an investigation team arrives, the tyranids have evolved (among others) genestealers, spore sacks and bio-titans.

So, from the Anphelion Project we see that from a relatively limited amount of Tyranids almost any Tyranid creature can spring.

What does this mean for a genestealer infestation? By the time a cult is fully developed and spread across a planet there could be millions of genestealers.

Could these genestealers create other Tyranid creatures?

Could the inevitable cult uprising be accompanied by bio-titans busrting out of the ground, swarms of termaguants, and so on?

blackcherry
04-09-2015, 10:57
It is possible but I would imagine it would be very limited (the last examples of Bio-Titans is a real stretch). Though I do remember examples of it in Black Library fiction, it has been the odd Hormaguant at most. The whole point of a Genestealer infestation is to not raise suspicion until it's too late to stop them - I imagine having large bands of wild Tyranids roaming freely would disrupt that plan.*

That's not to say the odd creature under the control of the Genestealer Patriarch is unreasonable - Genestealers create their own localized hive mind capable of operating on it's own, so it isn't a stretch to think they could expand it to encompass direct control of a few creatures. Anything beyond that though and I would consider a bit iffy unless there are background examples.

*Though it must be noted, it doesn't stop wild Tyrannic (sp?) creatures infesting a world long after an invasion has been repelled - they're just feral creatures loosed from any sort of Hive Mind control and so will resort to more animistic behaviors rather than the co-ordinated ones they do on the tabletop.

jareddm3
04-09-2015, 11:02
The novel Deathwatch features a genestealer cult with, I believe, a single carnifex that was bred.

memitchell747
06-09-2015, 21:00
It was a long time before the Imperium connected genestealers to Tyranids. And, only then, because genestealers were shock troops in Tyranid armies. Plus, the early definition of Genestealers is they breed using a host species' DNA. So, they do not produce Tyranid DNA. Both of those would suggest Tyranids did/do not appear in a Genestealer Cult. However, Genestealers appear where there are Tyranids. The more interesting concept was a Genestealer Cult fighting alongside a Tyranid invasion. So, Genestealers, hybrids with tanks and weapons fighting alongside Tyranids. Then, the GS Cult gets eaten by the Tyranids. But, my 40K lore knowledge is old.

Ambience 327
06-09-2015, 21:39
The Genestealers have a brood telepathy that allows them to operate outside the influence of the Hive Mind. It is the Hive Mind, to my knowledge, that allows Tyranids to evolve and adapt. I'm not sure what the deal was with the Anphelion Project as I have not read it, but I would hazard to guess that the Hive Fleet was close enough to the captured creature(s) to exert some influence.

In any event, whether it has been retconned or not, it is certainly my preferred opinion that Genestealers outside the Hive Fleets operate independently, and that the only living things you will find in a Genestealer Cult before the Hive Fleet arrives are Purestrains (including the Patriarch), Hybrids and Brood Brother thralls. Just before the Hive Fleet arrives in force, I would think a few of the other vanguard organisms, such as Lictors, might make an appearance, having dropped in from advance scout-ships.

Harwammer
07-09-2015, 14:21
It could be that the rogue vessel which carried the initial genestealer also carried a few other Tyrannids too.

I'm sure in the past some of the Tyrannid strains were stated as being able to complete life cycles (breed, feed and proceed) without intervention of the Hive Mind. Perhaps it was some such creatures that were stowed away.

As to the small Tyrannids 'evolving' to overcome challenges, perhaps the hive mind took a leaf out the ork book and includes lots of spare programming in some of their vanguard creatures so those creatures can grow in a way that best matches the environment they land in?

Formerly Wu
07-09-2015, 17:28
So, from the Anphelion Project we see that from a relatively limited amount of Tyranids almost any Tyranid creature can spring.

What does this mean for a genestealer infestation? By the time a cult is fully developed and spread across a planet there could be millions of genestealers.

Could these genestealers create other Tyranid creatures?

Could the inevitable cult uprising be accompanied by bio-titans busrting out of the ground, swarms of termaguants, and so on?
I don't think it's impossible, but widespread breeding of other Tyranid bioforms would be inimical to the cult's need for secrecy. It would be selected against, as it were.

That said, a cult of alien mutants secretly breeding a handful of monstrosities in the basement is primo gothic horror material, so I would be inclined to allow it.

TheSaylesMan
08-09-2015, 02:47
As Tyranid organisms, Genestealers could very well be loaded up with tons of parasitic or symbiotic organisms that they could potentially cultivate 'on-site' as tools to help them with their infiltration. I hadn't really considered that before but all of their equipment/wargear is alive after all. Thus it has a life cycle and thus some organisms could be smuggled into an area via Genestealer in larval stage so that they may later pupate into useful gear. I hope to see more of that idea in the future. Its a good one.

memitchell747
08-09-2015, 16:26
I would say The Anphelion Project as you describe it only shows with 40K fluff, there is an exception to every rule. Like a Commissar-Colonel, the naughty but nice Soul Drinkers chapter, a complete re-write of Dark Eldar fluff, etc... Some of it becomes canon, some of it remains one-off. Any of it could justify any fluff aberration. Besides, if they can literally blow up the Warhammer World (30 years of fluff!), you can put a Carnefex in your Genestealer Cult.

To return to my previous posts, in the older PC game Rites of War...[Spoiler Alert!]...A Genestealer Cult fights the good guys (Eldar and Imperials). And then...[Spoiler Alert!]...Tyranids arrive and fight alongside the GSC, until the GSC fades away and the Tyranids get strong. The game is not nearly as awesome as its theme. 40K fluff does not say that is the normal turn of events. Probably because GW doesn't still make GSC models. What we do know is the Tyranids just defeat the opponents and consume the planet, including the GSC (its roll from when the Hive Fleet arrives to when the Hive Fleet wins is unmentioned). But, it seems logical the GSC would be fighting alongside Tyranid for a while. That would be fun.

If you want to go WAAAAY back, Advanced Space Crusade (1990) is the Tyranid Hive Ship combat boardgame that introduced Tyranid models into the 40K universe. It confirmed Genestealers were Tyranid bio-constructs. Because the Genestealer Hybrids with models were concurrently introduced in the Space Hulk expansion "Genestealer," ASC also included rules for using GS Hybrids with the Tyranids. So, yes to GSC in a Tyranids force. Up to you for Tyranids in a GSC. Besides, anyone who fields a GSC deserves a lot of latitude.

Lord Damocles
08-09-2015, 17:34
If Genestealers could create other Tyranid species, you'd expect to see space hulks with organisms other than Genestealers with regularity; however there is no indication that this is the case.

The 3rd edition Space Hulk board tiles did feature the large plant-like Tyranid spine growths though, so effects on local fauna aren't out of the question.

Formerly Wu
09-09-2015, 03:13
If Genestealers could create other Tyranid species, you'd expect to see space hulks with organisms other than Genestealers with regularity; however there is no indication that this is the case.
Perhaps not, though. Tyranid are very purpose-built. Genestealers are vanguard/scout organisms that can operate independent of the Hive Mind, while most other Tyranid bioforms small enough to inhabit a hulk are fodder or shock troops that are animalistic without guidance. A wandering wreck just isn't a good environment for them.

bittick
09-09-2015, 15:46
I'd say that "some" Tyranid creatures from "some" Hive Fleets possess the ability of limited mutation. "Some" genetic strains of "some" creatures may possess the ability to evolve into others. But I also think of the Anphelion Project as sort of a 40K version of Jurassic Park. They were probably experimenting with all sorts of stuff there. It is probably not a normal example of Nid evolution.

So yeah, theoretically, in the right conditions, if you leave a handful of Gaunts on a planet, and come back in 50 years, there might be a full fledged Tyranid army, complete with Hive Tyrants and Carnifexes. But you're a lot more likely to just have some dead Gaunts. I remember reading that a lot of Nids don't even have all the internal organs they need, like stomachs or things like that. They're born with like a 3 or 4 day lifespan and they just go out and kill kill kill. I guess they just live off of fat deposits and when they run out, they die.

Each Hive Fleet probably uses a different tactic. Maybe some are designed to evolve spontaneously on the battlefield, and some are not. Some are designed for colonization and some are not. Some spend time and energy making almost unkillable regenerating Carnis who go on fighting even centuries after failed invasion attempts. Some design their shock troops to die after a few weeks. Perhaps the Tyranids in the Anphelion Project had fed on Ork DNA? Maybe they'd incorporated something like the spore ability, to spread microbes on the wind currents?

I think the thing to remember is that Nids are constantly changing their genetic structure, trying new things. So yeah, it's possible that some genestealer cult somewhere had the DNA of a Carnifex in its family tree. But it's also safe to say that that isn't the standard. It would be highly unusual.

TheSaylesMan
09-09-2015, 20:39
Here's a question. In the absence of the Hive Mind, can a Tyranid bio-form receive instructions via Genestealer brood telepathy? If no, than any Tyranid organisms bred to accompany Genestealers would have to have instinctive behavior that is inherently useful to the Genestealers. For example, Termagaunts are equipped with symbiotic biological guns. These guns are still functioning and follow the will of the Termagaunt even beyond the reach of the Hive Mind. If yes, than the Hive Mind really should get around to miniaturizing a birthing organism that can hitch a ride on a Genestealer. Some kind of larva inside the Genestealer's digestive tract that is in hibernation until a certain trigger and then pupates in the open air. It would be incredibly useful.

Dryaktylus
10-09-2015, 02:09
If you want to go WAAAAY back, Advanced Space Crusade (1990) is the Tyranid Hive Ship combat boardgame that introduced Tyranid models into the 40K universe. It confirmed Genestealers were Tyranid bio-constructs. Because the Genestealer Hybrids with models were concurrently introduced in the Space Hulk expansion "Genestealer," ASC also included rules for using GS Hybrids with the Tyranids. So, yes to GSC in a Tyranids force. Up to you for Tyranids in a GSC. Besides, anyone who fields a GSC deserves a lot of latitude.

Well, the first Tyranid models were Zoats and those two models of actual Tyranids (not counting the unreleased big guy) later used as mere Hunter-slayers (from 1987). Genestealer didn't introduced Hybrid miniatures, the models from Bob Olley and Jes Goodwin were older (not that much older, but they were released with a series of background articles and two army lists for 'Stealers that had nothing to do with the Tyranids). But I agree, GSC should fight alongside Tyranids during an invasion. I don't like the idea of 'Stealers creating other Tyranids though.

daveNYC
15-09-2015, 19:07
I thought that the latest fluff had Genestealers as pathfinders for the Hive Fleets.

1) Genestealers land on populated planet (somehow)
2) Cult is established and thrives.
3) At a certain point the cult is large enough that it creates a psychic beacon that attracts the nearest Hive Fleet.
4) The cult senses the approaching Hive Fleet and since they don't want to be eaten, scrambles (violently) to get off planet.
5) This Cult uprising mucks up the defenses of the planet making it easy prey for the Hive Fleet, and whatever cult members who manage to escape start step one on whatever planet they end up on.

It's a system that actually makes some sense, and one that would not benefit from the addition of the ability to breed more invading swarm type organisms.

bittick
17-09-2015, 15:35
I don't think #4 happens. I don't think the genestealers know that the Hive Fleet is going to eat them. Oh sure, you might have a few higher ups who understand what is about to happen and decide to hightail it. But I think the vast majority of the cult sees the arrival of the Hive Fleet like the coming of their god. It's a time of celebration.

totgeboren
17-09-2015, 19:14
I don't think #4 happens. I don't think the genestealers know that the Hive Fleet is going to eat them. Oh sure, you might have a few higher ups who understand what is about to happen and decide to hightail it. But I think the vast majority of the cult sees the arrival of the Hive Fleet like the coming of their god. It's a time of celebration.

But it would make sense if the genestealers knew, or at least that some of them got a sort of instinctual imperative to try and get some of the cultists to smuggle them on board a space ship. Preferably before the worlds inhabitants know the nids are on their way, meaning security would be a bit more lax when it comes to ships originating from the world the genestelaers are on.

It would mean point 4 leads to point 5 and 1 (but on another world), so the system would be self-sustaining.

Grarik
18-09-2015, 14:08
I don't think #4 happens. I don't think the genestealers know that the Hive Fleet is going to eat them. Oh sure, you might have a few higher ups who understand what is about to happen and decide to hightail it. But I think the vast majority of the cult sees the arrival of the Hive Fleet like the coming of their god. It's a time of celebration.

From the fluff (specifically the 5th edition codex) this is indeed what happens, although its not a concious action. Genestealers instinctively try to escape from incoming hive fleet, generally by infiltrating onto escaping spacecraft which will eventually take them to a new planet where the whole cycle starts again. Oddly enough the ymgarl genestealers instinctively do the opposite, except that the hivemind refuses to consume them due to their genetic instability (also from the 5th edition book)

bittick
18-09-2015, 14:35
From the fluff (specifically the 5th edition codex) this is indeed what happens, although its not a concious action. Genestealers instinctively try to escape from incoming hive fleet, generally by infiltrating onto escaping spacecraft which will eventually take them to a new planet where the whole cycle starts again. Oddly enough the ymgarl genestealers instinctively do the opposite, except that the hivemind refuses to consume them due to their genetic instability (also from the 5th edition book)

Eh, that's new then. In the old days I think they stuck around.

daveNYC
18-09-2015, 14:46
It's actually one of the few bits of Tyranid lore that actually manages to make sense. Don't get me started on what exactly a Hive Fleet is going to do with the gigatons of material they harvest from a planet.

Rogue Star
18-09-2015, 17:26
Don't get me started on what exactly a Hive Fleet is going to do with the gigatons of material they harvest from a planet.

Make more Tyranids? :p

daveNYC
18-09-2015, 20:10
Yeah. But it's one thing to say they take that matter and use it for Tyranid chow, and totally another to actually think just about how much freaking mass they're actually talking about.

Grarik
18-09-2015, 23:26
It's actually one of the few bits of Tyranid lore that actually manages to make sense. Don't get me started on what exactly a Hive Fleet is going to do with the gigatons of material they harvest from a planet.

I've thought about this since I agree it seems a bit hard to believe that a hive fleet can strip a planet completely bare of all biomass and usable minerals and use it all. There's only really 1 way that I can feasibly see it all being processed, and that is if there's a previously unseen and unrecorded species of bioship that are essentially living storage tanks.

Dryaktylus
20-09-2015, 22:08
They tried to explain this in BFG Armada with much bigger hive ships that appear during the latest step of the invasion (i.e. the feast). Don't know this source anymore, but I read that the ships transport some water externally (like a mantle of ice).

memitchell747
06-10-2015, 23:36
Just finished ‘The Anphelion Project.' It's a good read! Any discussion of it in relation to Tyranid Lore would have to be couched in "maybes." Not because its basic story is impossible, or implausible. But, because it doesn't fit other Tyranid canon. So, with no intention of discouraging anyone from playing and gaming as they wish, at best it can only be put in perspective.

Imperial Armor is Forgeworld, and so, not canon. Forgeworld's charter is to add esoteric stuff to 40K. Fun stuff, and not strictly doctrinal. Plus, the backstory supports the fun stuff, it's not written to further the background, but to add on to it. The first big "maybe" is 'The Anphelion Project' takes place on a remote and insignificant asteroid. It could be the conditions and situation is really unique. Or, the reporting of the incident is sketchy.

The idea that a few captive Tyranids could develop or evolve wings and fly out of their stockade is not in keeping with the other background. Neither, that those few escapees could infest and affect the local jungle, and turn it into a Tyranid friendly environment. Nor, that they could in a short time reproduce in some fashion the entire host of Tyranid bio-constructs, from flora to Ripper Swarms to bio-titans. That's awfully cool, but I don't think it is in keeping with Tyranid background (and I could be wrong). If it is possible, Tyranids win, hands down. The rest of the races in the Galaxy may as well kill themselves. If Genestealers could do that, they why wouldn't they? The whole insidious Cult with hybrids subverting a planet would be superfluous. Who needs a Patriarch when you can have a bio-titan or a herd of Hive Tyrants? Not saying never. Not saying not this time. Not saying not even under the right conditions. And, not saying not to do it if it floats your boat. Just saying it makes the background kinda malleable to the point of anything goes.

ntw3001
07-10-2015, 05:06
Yeah, from what I've heard about the Anphelion Project it doesn't seem to fit with established tyranid fluff. They don't just sprout wings and spread spores. All that 'evolution' stuff takes place on the hive ships. Once a termagant is on the ground, it's just a termagant. It could be a unique, special hive fleet that has this ability, but to my mind it's so far removed from what Tyranids do that it doesn't make sense any more.

LethalShade
08-10-2015, 13:08
As someone said before, Genestealers are somewhat independent from the Hive Mind and possess intelligence of their own. They may be able to either mutate themselves into other tyranid forms (which will then mutate into a bigger one, et caetera) or use human hosts to incubate other small forms like gaunts. This, or they create bio facilities by spitting on the walls of a dirty garden shed used by 12 years old cultists.

Saunders
08-10-2015, 17:50
Worth noting that you could say the creature in the Anphelion Project was a Warrior, and you're connected to the Hive Mind.

...that said, Warriors aren't exactly 'small,' and it's more likely that a splinter of a Hive Fleet was drawn to the world at some point.

The most likely scenario was that the Forgeworld writers adapted fluff to fit the narrative. The used to be a lot more of that, as opposed to adapting the narrative to fit the fluff (which is more SOP these days. Both have their pros and cons :P)

TheSaylesMan
08-10-2015, 21:56
As someone said before, Genestealers are somewhat independent from the Hive Mind and possess intelligence of their own. They may be able to either mutate themselves into other tyranid forms (which will then mutate into a bigger one, et caetera) or use human hosts to incubate other small forms like gaunts. This, or they create bio facilities by spitting on the walls of a dirty garden shed used by 12 years old cultists.

Genestealers are purely biological. They would need some kinds of organs to do this with if they were capable of it. Baseline Genestealers have been autopsied on numerous occasions and Imperial authorities have mentioned no structures, organs or micro-organisms that could be responsible for spontaneous mutation. Psychic powers could be responsible for spontaneous mutation. We have the biomancy discipline in Human psykers to serve as a precedent. Once again however, multiple autopsies show that baseline Genestealers exhibit no greater psychic potential than telepathic abilities. I highly doubt that Genestealers are capable of building molecular fabricators out of inanimate, organic materials so I am going to rule that one out as well.

The only way I see this being possible is through immature Tryanid bioforms being hosted within a Genestealer's flesh to be disgorged later. This however comes with the logistical problem of there being no synapse creatures in range for these organisms to be useful.

Saunders
08-10-2015, 22:12
Brood Lords a capable of both synapse and channeling the hive mind's power as a psyker (thus gaining synapse control). They've also been written more recently to fulfill the role of genestealer cult patriarch. It's tough to say what they're currently capable of since details regarding Genestealer Cults are kind of in a state of flux.

Just sayin'.

TheSaylesMan
09-10-2015, 02:50
Brood Lords a capable of both synapse and channeling the hive mind's power as a psyker (thus gaining synapse control). They've also been written more recently to fulfill the role of genestealer cult patriarch. It's tough to say what they're currently capable of since details regarding Genestealer Cults are kind of in a state of flux.

Just sayin'.

That's a good point. Could the Brood Lord potentially make different Tyranid organisms using biomancy or the Tyranid equivalent? Possibly. That seems like an entirely plausible reason. It would also be an inherently more inefficient means of creating Tyranids because of Perils or Psychic Phenomena or whatever you want to call it thus not making the other means of Tyranid reproduction obsolete. I fully support this idea.

Saunders
10-10-2015, 05:49
Considering that we still don't really know to what degree the various servants of the Hive Mind share their knowledge (for instance it has been implied that hive fleets largely operate as foreign entities towards each other, even if they're all fragments of the same hive mind) you could just as well imagine that a Brood Lord could be spurred to produce other tyranid creatures through his psychic link with the Hive Mind or their parent Hive Fleet. One has to imagine at the very least that a Brood Lord serves as a beacon to draw in other elements of their hive fleet, so there must be some form of communication or awareness.

Personally though, I'm of the opinion that the Hive ships are exclusively where the magic of organism construction occurs, and that a genestealer will only beget more genestealers (and only through the use of other hosts). I imagine that a brood lord's psychic potential only manifests in a specific and more traditional fashion in comparison to this galaxy's inhabitants (as per the codex they know The Horror and gain Dominion by default--I think of their powers more as brood telepathy as opposed to the more metabolically-inclined or pew-pew raw energy powers of synapse creatures)

The more I think about it, the more my opinion is at odds with the notion that a genestealer cult could grow their own tyranid creatures. There is a fair amount of latitude with ways around that, though. Other creatures could have arrived by spore, and the world could have already been seeded by the tyranids. A Brood Lord is technically capable of exercising its will over tyranid beasts, so it could pull creatures out of hibernation or something of the like. This is, again, sit atonal dependent upon the kinds of creatures we're talking about. Things like Rippers or Hormagaunts would make less sense, being that they posess a frenzied metabolism that inevitably leads to a short lifespan. Something like a termagant can persist in hiding for a long time after arriving on the world though, either before or after a tyranid invasion (outside of synapse control they're pretty skittish). Something like a Lictor working in conjunction with a genestealer cult would make sense, but I don't see them birthing their own Lictors.

Again, that's just my opinion.

memitchell747
10-10-2015, 19:05
The thematic problem is the GSC remains covert, until the Hive Fleet nears. Tyranids in the cult would make it less covert, and would serve no real purpose until time to undermine or overthrow the ruling government. Tyranidss in the GSC would be lots of risk for potential reduced reward.

TheSaylesMan
11-10-2015, 01:01
The thematic problem is the GSC remains covert, until the Hive Fleet nears. Tyranids in the cult would make it less covert, and would serve no real purpose until time to undermine or overthrow the ruling government. Tyranidss in the GSC would be lots of risk for potential reduced reward.

I don't know about that. How many of your average Imperial officials would even be able to recognize a Tyranid let alone know the full implications of what seeing one means? Education is far from a given in the Imperium after all. Plus, Genestealers hitch rides on Space Hulks which bypass the typical Warp transit lanes. They can show up pretty much anywhere so the Imperium can't send out specialists to those planets to forewarn them. I think that the most vulnerable a planet could be before invasion could be would be like Syria and Iraq today. The presence of unknown but obviously hostile xenos could be the perfect cover by which the Hybrids can cause turmoil. A lot of people forget that the Genestealer Cult doesn't just include Hybrids, Genestealers and implanted victims. It also includes plenty of dupes who buy into the farce that the Cult uses as a cover. Mass media may not be prevalent in the Imperium but you can be sure that people will notice when xenos can show up anywhere and slaughter people. I would say that Hybrids could use other Tyranid life forms as false flag attacks. The fact that their are xenos on the planet makes it obvious that the world's defenses are compromised after all. It paints the officials as incompetent at protecting them. Or worse! Imagine how terrible things would be if the government was accused of being in cahoots with these monsters. The Imperium is mighty after all. How could xenos get onto a world with no invading ships if they didn't have help with conspirators. Only the officials have access to ships to get the aliens on the planet. The final generation of hybrids used as the right plants in the right places could make things very interesting. Governor's aides making accusations. Arbites actively investigating the government.

The best part is that Hybrids are entirely expendable and perfectly loyal to the Cult! All they need do is breed once to make more Purestrains before they begin their assignments and the world is primed for more cults to start popping up like weeds. If those Hybrids get caught there will be no evidence to suggest they aren't human and their loyalty will mean the Imperials will get no intelligence out of them. Its the perfect recipe for mayhem and rebellion. The world would waste and burn off its military supplies and manpower fighting in engineered conflicts for decades while new cults spread and pop up to add more fuel to the fire. Such a scenario could lead to complete governmental collapse. I think that is a better outcome for the Tyranids. A planet weak from generations of civil war.

memitchell747
15-10-2015, 01:59
We can do a lot of "what ifs..." that allow for most any possibility. Morphing Tyranids, Broodlords with psychic DNA manipulation and autonomous Hive Mind (instead of Brood Telepothy), etc. But, there's still no example of a GSC with homegrown Tyranids (until they write one :rolleyes:).

ChaosTicket
21-10-2015, 01:54
A fundamental problem with non-Genestealers is that the require being bred by the birthing creatures on hive ships. Genestealers reproduce by infecting races like humans which produce hybrids of different generations which eventually make more Purestrain genestealers in a cyclical pattern.

Its also a point that nearly all tyranid species are created to be functionally sterile and lacking in various organs that would allow them to survive more than a few days. They fight, they die, theyre recycled into new creatures.

Other tyanids dont mesh with Genestealers outside of battle.

There have been some kinds of mutating tyranids, but those are kinds of super prototypes that cant be reproduced or if they can they would cause uncontrolled mutation through an entire hive fleet so the tyranids quarantine them.

memitchell747
21-10-2015, 15:01
Separate and autonomous Tyranid "outbreaks" could overwhelm isolated or peripheral resistance, and sporadically spread the species faster. But, acting in an uncoordinated and not mutually supporting manor simply dilutes the greater effort, and could even interfere with it's advance. Stripping planets ahead of the Hive Fleet would be like a wildfire creating its own fire breaks. Plus, in the background, the Hive Mind is fundamental to the Tyranid existence. And, all pervasive. Tyranids don't exist to spread autonomous pockets of the species like Ripley's "Aliens." Or, have near-autonomous Brain Bugs like "Starship Troopers." Nor, individual hives like ants or bees. Even splinter fleets are part of a greater whole. They advance like a locust horde, instead of separate infestations. Tyranids appearing before and beyond the reach of the Hive Mind contradicts fundamental mythos.

Now, this doesn't mean a species that completely and forever leaves barren its conquered territory makes any evolutionary sense at all. Forever fighting for new territory, instead of subsisting on "infected" territory is nonsensical. Even the Orks, an artificially created warrior species that thrives on violent conflict don't do that. Plus, the Tyranid's eternal quest for new life forms (i.e., new DNA) ignores the basic facts of life. Life creates its own new DNA. "Life, uh, finds a way." But, absolutes and aberrations are the 40K way.

Saunders
21-10-2015, 20:45
Now, this doesn't mean a species that completely and forever leaves barren its conquered territory makes any evolutionary sense at all. Forever fighting for new territory, instead of subsisting on "infected" territory is nonsensical. Even the Orks, an artificially created warrior species that thrives on violent conflict don't so that. Plus, the Tyranid's eternal quest for new life forms (i.e., new DNA) ignores the basic facts of life. Life creates its own new DNA. "Life, uh, finds a way." But, absolutes and aberrations are the 40K way.

I would have to disagree with you on that, citing the natural world as a counter-example. Just look at our human ancestors in hunter-gatherer societies. The trend was to stay in a location and consume its resources before moving to a new location. Tyranids are hunter-gatherers with presumably eons of evolution geared towards the task. They are a hunter-gatherer super-organism on a galactic scale. Just think of our galaxy as a new local ecosystem that the tyranids have come to exploit. It may seem to us as though the tyranids are consuming everything in an unsustainable fashion, but our galaxy is a single mote in the universe. When they are done here, they will distill the genetic information gathered from their consumption, store the energy they gathered, and enter hibernation as they move to the next galaxy.

This is all made-up of course, but still, I can see the logic in it.

memitchell747
22-10-2015, 00:55
I'm not a biologist, but I did try to come up with a terrestrial Tyranid equivalent. Even a species that strips the land of its primary food source (Locusts, hunter-gather humans, and other nomadic species) don't destroy the land's ability to re-populate their food source. So, that they can return next season. What is relevant here is if tyranids in the form of a Genestealer Cult rapidly populate and destroy worlds in advance of the Hive Fleet, they do exactly the opposite of given role of the GSC, which is to act as a beacon for fertile worlds, instead of a beacon to already barren ones. Can that small deviation from the background be overlooked, or rewritten? Sure.

I think in this supposition, timing is everything, and location, location, location. As the Hive Fleet arrives, the GSC up-rises, and fights alongside tyranids (or would/could if the GSC was supported in the fluff, rules, and product line. The possibilities are endless with GSC tanks and cultists allied with tyranids. I used to play that army in 2nd edition. And, used Legion of the Damned rules for it in later editions. And, it was glorious!

ChaosTicket
22-10-2015, 11:04
Tyranids arent looking for food, but rather they are running from one side of the galaxy to the other. theyre stripping resources to continue the journey but they are being blocked. Its been something like 20years since tyranids came out, so their appeal of a nomadic race strip mining planets has lost its edge.

memitchell747
22-10-2015, 14:38
Sorta. The Hive Mind component of the Tyranid mythos is so prevalent that the needs of individual Tyranids are completely subsumed. Some Tyranids don't even have the ability to consume or process food. But, at the macro Hive Mind level, the massive multi-organism does consume Bio-mass for fuel (or else it's powered magically), renewed genetic material, and because its another 40K species that exists solely to destroy anything and everything (Some species just want to see the Galaxy burn:rolleyes:). At least the GSC is dedicated to building, instead of destroying. Until the Hive Fleet arrives.

Saunders
22-10-2015, 17:43
That's the thing about GSCs, there seems to be a misconception that they're established to wage war against the Imperium. GSCs tend not to rise up until the Hive Fleet arrives.

ChaosTicket
22-10-2015, 20:03
Genestealers dont rise up when Tyranids hive fleets are actually attacking, but as to cause general chaos along any area by infiltrating societies. The Imperium is the most likely to be infiltrated as other races lack that kind of society. Orks for example dont breed in a way that Genestealers can infect. Genestealer Patriarchs/brood lords act as psychic beacons to Tyranid fleets to know where a point of weakness is.

One of the three most infamous Hive fleets is basically the codifier. I cant remember whether is what Kraken or Leviathan. Well the Genestealer cult caused a rebellion on a major Imperial World. Rebellions arent anything special in the Imperium as there is always someone trying to do so for one reason or another. The difference with this was that the whole rebellion was just a smokescreen to weaken the planet and the Imperium. Depending on the source either the Genestealer Patriarch was killed just before or during the following Tyranid Hive Fleet invasion.

Its hard to even really identify Genestealers as there are many minor alien races attacking the Imperium in one way or another. Theyre usually not even related to the tyranids at all. There are just alot of different species on the galaxy.

Dryaktylus
22-10-2015, 21:31
I'm not a biologist, but I did try to come up with a terrestrial Tyranid equivalent. Even a species that strips the land of its primary food source (Locusts, hunter-gather humans, and other nomadic species) don't destroy the land's ability to re-populate their food source. So, that they can return next season.

They don't do this with purpose. If a species is able and driven to devour all life it will do - there's no plan to spare something for later; evolution is mindless. It's not a (very) realistic scenario though as the life on earth is too diverse. The Tyranids however are conceived as a whole alternative, alien and aggressive eco-system with some vacuum cleaner abilities to consume not only biomass but also water and minerals. So... Tyranids are a concept that is at least possible.


That's the thing about GSCs, there seems to be a misconception that they're established to wage war against the Imperium. GSCs tend not to rise up until the Hive Fleet arrives.

They'll fight if exposed. And as they could rule settlements, hives or even entire planets they'll attack to expand - as "imperial" (or whatever) forces though (trying to leave no non-infected survivors). And there was also the Genestealer Invasion Force army list with just Purestrains and some Hybrids... well... if the Hybrids didn't scavenged some REALLY scary weapons I hope for extremely improved rules for the Genestealers...

memitchell747
23-10-2015, 05:14
They don't do this with purpose. If a species is able and driven to devour all life it will do - there's no plan to spare something for later; evolution is mindless. It's not a (very) realistic scenario though as the life on earth is too diverse. The Tyranids however are conceived as a whole alternative, alien and aggressive eco-system with some vacuum cleaner abilities to consume not only biomass but also water and minerals. So... Tyranids are a concept that is at least possible.
Evolution has no intelligent purpose, but it is a process. A plague that kills all hosts dies out. A species that forever kills all prey dies out. Evolution is self-correcting. Granted, the Tyranids are an artificial evolution process. But, that is not an excuse to do something that inhibits evolutionary success anymore than it s an excuse to NOT do something that enhances evolutionary success. An intelligent species dedicated solely to war and destruction simply cannot be more successful than if it is used its conquered resources, rather than consuming them. Yes, there is the not-really-plausible drive to gather more diverse DNA strands. But, seriously, a species that can manipulate and construct DNA requires every last microbe at the bottom of every ocean in the Galaxy? Really? If I didn't know better, I would say that is just an excuse for eternal war.;)


They'll fight if exposed. And as they could rule settlements, hives or even entire planets they'll attack to expand - as "imperial" (or whatever) forces though (trying to leave no non-infected survivors). And there was also the Genestealer Invasion Force army list with just Purestrains and some Hybrids... well... if the Hybrids didn't scavenged some REALLY scary weapons I hope for extremely improved rules for the Genestealers...

From a literary viewpoint, the development of a Genestealer cult from Purestrain to infected populace to infiltrated infrastructure to insurgency to uprising to the indignity of mindless surrender to feeding pools is risible and anti-climatic. And, just a sop to GSC aficionados. Just a cut above getting Squated.:shifty:

ntw3001
24-10-2015, 00:00
I'm not really seeing why the fact that species which eat all their prey will die out means that that can't happen. If Tyranids are going through the 'eat everything, then starve' cycle, and there are still things to eat, they're not going to have starved yet. If the idea is that they'll starve after devouring the galaxy, they have the power of intergalactic travel. They have a better post-game plan than the humans, who will also inevitably consume all available reaources if they last long enough. They also have a better plan B than modern humans, so I don't feel like 'an intelligent species wouldn't destroy its own means of sustenance' really rings true.

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Saunders
26-10-2015, 05:57
Evolution has no intelligent purpose, but it is a process. A plague that kills all hosts dies out. A species that forever kills all prey dies out. Evolution is self-correcting. Granted, the Tyranids are an artificial evolution process. But, that is not an excuse to do something that inhibits evolutionary success anymore than it s an excuse to NOT do something that enhances evolutionary success. An intelligent species dedicated solely to war and destruction simply cannot be more successful than if it is used its conquered resources, rather than consuming them. Yes, there is the not-really-plausible drive to gather more diverse DNA strands. But, seriously, a species that can manipulate and construct DNA requires every last microbe at the bottom of every ocean in the Galaxy? Really? If I didn't know better, I would say that is just an excuse for eternal war.;)

Sure, Tyranids extract all resources they can from worlds that they invade. However, they don't consume all resources ever, everywhere. We don't know how widespread they are but it's a safe assumption that the universe at large isn't infested with tyranids. By the time they move from one end of the universe to another, galaxies will have enriched themselves with new resources to harvest through the deaths and births of new star systems. Tyranids don't even have a 'faster than light' means of travel. We don't even know how many thousands or millions of years that the Tyranids have been travelling to reach our galaxy. They're operating on a timescale that makes your "forever kills all prey" analogy irrelevant. Even if we're dealing with permanent absolutes, a species that has evolved to strip-mine galaxies is only going to become an evolutionary dead-end if it actually renders all galaxies barren and somehow end the universal laws that drive the expansion and maturation of the universe. Until then, the tyranids have been an evolutionary success.

ChaosTicket
26-10-2015, 09:36
Its incorrect that people use evolution to refer specie like the Tyranids. Tyranids genetically modify their organisms. They dont use breeding and natural selection over millions of years. Humanity has evolved more with psykers and the lot and even then there are various genetic projects such as the Canis Helix of the Space Wolves or whatever genetic engineering created the Ogryns.

Its speculation whether Tyranids are just general "consume everything" types as some kind of biological weapons from another galaxy, whether they are actually running from something and they need to collect resources on the way, or maybe something else.

But all of that doesnt matter as it has little to do with genestealers. Genestealers have never fit well with Tyranids. Tyranids are all about the psychic Hive Mind controlling all the basic and animalistic drones while higher level Tyranids like Hive Tyrants can act as relays for the Hive Mind so have psuedo-sentience. Genestealers are independent of the Hive Mind and can breed in an odd way through what is basically viral infection of other lifeforms.

Harwammer
27-10-2015, 07:02
Its incorrect that people use evolution to refer specie like the Tyranids. Tyranids genetically modify their organisms. They dont use breeding and natural selection over millions of years. Humanity has evolved more with psykers and the lot and even then there are various genetic projects such as the Canis Helix of the Space Wolves or whatever genetic engineering created the Ogryns.

Rightly said that evolution is the wrong term, but I think you are getting caught up in the terminology instead of following the gist.

In this instance people aren't referring to Tyranid creatures when they refer to evolution, they are talking about the race as a whole. And when they mention evolution in this instance, they are referring to survival of the race as a whole, not the creation of new variants.

I have to agree with other posters that it seems the Tyranid planet (galaxy ?) stripping strategy seems fit; if they are able to strip and move between galaxies, it seems certain there are sufficient galaxies and sufficient creation/regeneration of galaxies to allow the Tyranids to survive for a very long time indeed (will heat death of the universe even be a thing in this setting with dimensions such as the warp being able to send energy to the material dimension?).

ChaosTicket
27-10-2015, 19:13
Tyranids arent even a race, but rarer a collective of absorbed species. They dont even evolve, they adsorb and modify existing species as needed. They have more in common with the Borg and Zerg than any animal found in the real world.

As for galaxy stripping, it would be far easier and long-term to actually reduce their numbers and increase effeciency. What is the reason why Tyranids traveled from another galaxy to another?

Third, um why isnt anyone talking of genestealers anymore?

ntw3001
28-10-2015, 04:34
As for galaxy stripping, it would be far easier and long-term to actually reduce their numbers and increase effeciency.

That's true of humans as well, but the idea of humans overpopulating and eventually destroying their habitat is not at all implausible.

Simply reducing themselves to a level where they can live in harmony with the environment seems like quite a step down. Like the Imperium packing in the galactic-empire business and downsizing to become a native American tribe. It's true that the tribe would be much easier to manage, but anyone trying to convince the High Lords of Terra would find it a very tough sell.

Devouring galaxies is very much what Tyranids do, and since they can move between galaxies they actually seem to have the most sustainable long-term gameplan of any 40k race. They don't need to worry about this galaxy being sustainable; they're not settling it, they're eating it.

Edit: I'll mention genestealers too, just to mention my pet theory that the Imperium is a huge, ancient genestealer cult. Anyone who wanted a GSC codex can be satisfied that they have about seven.

ChaosTicket
28-10-2015, 09:26
Again, its conjecture that Tyranids are some kind of locust swarm devouring galaxies. There isnt evidence from the galaxy they come from, so players each make up their own ideas, Galaxy sripping is the least likely as locust are animals with too low intelligence to think about survival so locusts are essentially suicidal. Tyranids being controlled by a psychic hive mind and the the lower and animalistic not actually having the ability to eat or breed.

Tyranids ahem "downsizing" is based around what they are, biological tools and controlled by a Hive Mind. There isnt choice in the matter. If the Hive Mind says "stop breeding" it happens, no questions. Locusts cant do that in real life as they work off base instincts to breed and feed even if they starve themselves to death, but as already stated Tyranids have intelligence and dont actually eat or breed in the conventional sense. Breeding is done by their organic factory ships and feeding is done by ogranic recycling Rippers and by the bio-factory ships themselves feeding off planets and not just the oragnic parts of planets but even minerals. They really like Iron and Sodium in their diets.

Its a question of why Tyranids actually moved between galaxies. Galaxies are massive with between thousands and trillions of stars and each star having some kind of solar system made up of planets, moons, and other stellar objects. There are actually massive spaces between galaxies so just traveling between one even using Faster Than Light travel of some kind meant that he Tyranids would basically be at risk of decaying from lack of resources to sustain themselves.

So again, what is so dangerous in their old galaxy that Tyranids performed a massive migration risking total destruction? Did Cthulu show up?

Lord Damocles
28-10-2015, 12:24
Again, its conjecture that Tyranids are some kind of locust swarm devouring galaxies.
'Behind the Hive Fleets lie the barren husks of a dozen galaxies already consumed.'
Rulebook (5th ed.), pg.166

'Humanity will be absorbed, broken down into strands of DNA to be used to create a new generation of bio-technology.
...
To them man is just an inefficient and primitive lifeform, something to be turned to a higher purpose. Such has been the fate of a thousand galaxies, of millions of intelligent species, since time immemorial.'
White Dwarf 145 (UK), p.36

bittick
28-10-2015, 13:49
Again, its conjecture that Tyranids are some kind of locust swarm devouring galaxies. There isnt evidence from the galaxy they come from, so players each make up their own ideas, Galaxy sripping is the least likely as locust are animals with too low intelligence to think about survival so locusts are essentially suicidal. Tyranids being controlled by a psychic hive mind and the the lower and animalistic not actually having the ability to eat or breed.

Tyranids ahem "downsizing" is based around what they are, biological tools and controlled by a Hive Mind. There isnt choice in the matter. If the Hive Mind says "stop breeding" it happens, no questions. Locusts cant do that in real life as they work off base instincts to breed and feed even if they starve themselves to death, but as already stated Tyranids have intelligence and dont actually eat or breed in the conventional sense. Breeding is done by their organic factory ships and feeding is done by ogranic recycling Rippers and by the bio-factory ships themselves feeding off planets and not just the oragnic parts of planets but even minerals. They really like Iron and Sodium in their diets.

Its a question of why Tyranids actually moved between galaxies. Galaxies are massive with between thousands and trillions of stars and each star having some kind of solar system made up of planets, moons, and other stellar objects. There are actually massive spaces between galaxies so just traveling between one even using Faster Than Light travel of some kind meant that he Tyranids would basically be at risk of decaying from lack of resources to sustain themselves.

So again, what is so dangerous in their old galaxy that Tyranids performed a massive migration risking total destruction? Did Cthulu show up?

Locusts aren't suicidal. They are well adapted to their environment. That's why there are locust swarms on every continent except Antarctica. Locusts have biological triggers that tell them when to hibernate and when to breed. If food is scarce, they don't act the same as they do when it is plentiful.

Tyranids work exactly like that. They arrive in a galaxy, hit all the inhabited worlds they can find, and then move on to the next one. Presumably, once they eat the last few planets, they quit building swarms of little guys and just store some massive fat reserves on the hive ships in preparation for a couple million-year trip to the next galaxy. They enter a hibernation state and travel on to the next galaxy. When they get there they wake up really hungry and start the feeding process again. It works just fine. There are enough galaxies out there that they'll never run out. By the time they make it to the last galaxy, a bunch of new ones will have formed. That means new life and new civilizations. To boldly eat what no man has eaten before!

ntw3001
28-10-2015, 15:17
I think the problem with their previous galaxy is the same as the problem with my breakfast; I've eaten it already, and I'll need to find something completely new for lunch. I didn't need my toast to be a sustainable resource; I could live the life of a subsistence farmer and eliminate the need to travel to the shops, but I'm not tempted.

As for intergalactic travel, I don't see why we have to assume it's difficult for them. Crossing the Atlantic in a rowing boat is an enormous, dangerous ordeal, but we have planes.

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ChaosTicket
28-10-2015, 20:28
None of that answers why the Tyranids are moving across from one galaxy to another.

bittick
28-10-2015, 21:00
None of that answers why the Tyranids are moving across from one galaxy to another.

Last one ran out of food.

ntw3001
28-10-2015, 22:10
None of that answers why the Tyranids are moving across from one galaxy to another.
Yes it does. They're not eating that galaxy any more because they've already eaten it. They need a new galaxy to eat.

When you eat all the food in your house, I'm guessing you go out and buy more food. You could quit your job and become a subsistence farmer in order to avoid having to make the trip to the shops, which for a snail would seem quite a daunting journey. But as you're not a snail, the trip to the shops is trivial to you and you continue to undertake these journeys instead of developing an independently sustainable lifestyle.

ChaosTicket
28-10-2015, 23:51
Tyranids function like a massive engine. They require fuel to work, but theres nothing stopping them from quite simply conserving by limiting producing of organisms.

They way they 'eat" its very much non-sustainable. They require feeding off entire planets to supply themselves.

Locusts keep eating because they lack an higher levels of intelligence that would stop them from breeding out of control. Tyranids have the Hive Mind functioning as a gestalt intelligence directing the whole swarm as its combined Higher Intelligence. Now youre using analogies, so ill use one. If you have an orchard, why breed to the point if you know you will run out of food? Tyranids themselves are splitting up into different hive fleets because even with planets as food they cannot sustain their full numbers, so they are spreading out.

Im asking you why are they a nomadic horde and why they havent moved to sustainable forms? Real world nomads were forced to eventually become agrarian farmers as being nomads they could not sustain their growing numbers. Some attempted to form large hordes, but eventually they ran out just the same. Tyranids are basically starving at this point as they have been beaten back by the Imperium for hundreds of years without making much ground. Eventually it will reach the point where tyranids wont be able to sustain a purely plunder type of organization. Theyve already been defeated by a "domino theory" of using Exterminatus on worlds in their path starving them to death.

Its an interesting question if and where there are Tyranids farming for apples and other produce rather than form massive self-destructive swarms.
People are not thinking the Why's of the discussion. Why did they become a swarm? Why dont they reduce their numbers for greater efficiency? Organized societies of animals work more successfully than swarms or solo. Termites live longer than locusts.

If Tyranids didnt have the Hive Mind directing them it would make sense why they are being so self-destructive, but instead they have a inteliggence that could simply turn-off production of organisms so they dont starve.

bittick
29-10-2015, 00:28
Tyranids function like a massive engine. They require fuel to work, but theres nothing stopping them from quite simply conserving by limiting producing of organisms.

They way they 'eat" its very much non-sustainable. They require feeding off entire planets to supply themselves.

Locusts keep eating because they lack an higher levels of intelligence that would stop them from breeding out of control. Tyranids have the Hive Mind functioning as a gestalt intelligence directing the whole swarm as its combined Higher Intelligence. Now youre using analogies, so ill use one. If you have an orchard, why breed to the point if you know you will run out of food? Tyranids themselves are splitting up into different hive fleets because even with planets as food they cannot sustain their full numbers, so they are spreading out.

Im asking you why are they a nomadic horde and why they havent moved to sustainable forms? Real world nomads were forced to eventually become agrarian farmers as being nomads they could not sustain their growing numbers. Some attempted to form large hordes, but eventually they ran out just the same. Tyranids are basically starving at this point as they have been beaten back by the Imperium for hundreds of years without making much ground. Eventually it will reach the point where tyranids wont be able to sustain a purely plunder type of organization. Theyve already been defeated by a "domino theory" of using Exterminatus on worlds in their path starving them to death.

Its an interesting question if and where there are Tyranids farming for apples and other produce rather than form massive self-destructive swarms.
People are not thinking the Why's of the discussion. Why did they become a swarm? Why dont they reduce their numbers for greater efficiency? Organized societies of animals work more successfully than swarms or solo. Termites live longer than locusts.

If Tyranids didnt have the Hive Mind directing them it would make sense why they are being so self-destructive, but instead they have a inteliggence that could simply turn-off production of organisms so they dont starve.

I am sure I would be healthier if I didn't eat bacon. But I like bacon, and I choose to eat it a lot.

The Tyranids like devouring galaxies. What is the fun in being like a lesser species and growing crops and stuff? Answer: no fun at all. The Hive Mind isn't just intelligent -- it's malevolent. It does this stuff because it likes being mean.

ChaosTicket
29-10-2015, 01:06
I am sure I would be healthier if I didn't eat bacon. But I like bacon, and I choose to eat it a lot.

The Tyranids like devouring galaxies. What is the fun in being like a lesser species and growing crops and stuff? Answer: no fun at all. The Hive Mind isn't just intelligent -- it's malevolent. It does this stuff because it likes being mean.

Ok so the Tyranids are evil just because? If that is you answer to the universe I dont know what to say.

Harwammer
29-10-2015, 02:14
Surely if Tyranids 'eat galaxies' at slower rate than the universe creates/matures galaxies then their strategy is sustainable?

ntw3001
29-10-2015, 05:11
If the Tyranids do eventually run out of forces - and the total hive fleet is of unspecified size and apparently is still in the process of entering the galaxy, so there's no sign they're in trouble - there seems to be no reason they couldn't adopt something more small-time. If they get beaten back, they'll continue to exist wherever they survive. But apparently the Hive Mind doesn't feel it needs to do that. They're currently a predatory superorganism at the top of the food chain. What could that superorganism gain from surrendering that power, jettisoning almost its entire body and joining the other races' turf war? They'd be abandoning a position of supreme power for a position of danger, and gaining nothing from it. They're evidently able to travel safely between galaxies, so the only limit to their sustainability is the number of galaxies containing abundant life. That's (presumably) quite a stockpile to get through before they need to worry.

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ChaosTicket
29-10-2015, 09:18
At this point because of what people say I think the Hive Mind is propaganda and the Tyranids are actually just stupid animals eating themselves to death, which is a great achievement considering how few of them actual have digestive organs.

blackcherry
29-10-2015, 13:47
All of the talk has been purely speculative. To be honest we as readers don't know how the Hive Mind thinks or operates, just that it seems to be an apex predator directing countless lesser organisms to do it's bidding. The term 'Hive Mind' itself is something made up in universe and adopted by the Imperium. Even when we are given an omnipresent view of things, we don't know if each Hive Fleet has it's own Hive Mind that operates independently of the other fleet's, or if it is one organism directing an entire species. Hell, we don't even know if it is a single organism, other than a few in universe characters have described feeling a 'malevolent force' directing the actions of others when they have found a way to get a look into the gestalt consciousness of the race (and then, if they survive the experience!)

If it is? Then whatever it is wouldn't think like we do - it's consciousness is at the very least (if we assume each Fleet has it's own Hive Mind) directing tens of thousands of organisms that are being born and dying rapidly. So we can't really assign labels like 'reasonable actions' to whatever they do,not in the sense of what we consider rational anyway. One of the scariest things about Tyranids is that they are the only race that cannot be reasoned with. Other races can be discouraged from actions by force, or else bargained with. The Tyranids don't care. They want to consume everything, if only because that seems to be their single driving motive.

Anything else is pure speculation and if we ever were given a look at the driving force behind the race, it would probably be disappointing. So I prefer it to be vague.

ChaosTicket
29-10-2015, 19:50
Anything else is pure speculation and if we ever were given a look at the driving force behind the race, it would probably be disappointing. So I prefer it to be vague.

I hate the Necrons fluff turning them more and more into goofy villains instead a terrifying force of killer machines. Skynet is more interesting than space mummies.
I hate Tyranids being nothing more than a killer horde as then theyre just a Generic Doomsday Villain.

Kieras
29-10-2015, 20:12
Cults could potentially attract or sort of infect hive cities with smaller organisms such as rippers and stuff, just like let's say rats.

Razios
29-10-2015, 21:49
I hate the Necrons fluff turning them more and more into goofy villains instead a terrifying force of killer machines. Skynet is more interesting than space mummies.
I hate Tyranids being nothing more than a killer horde as then theyre just a Generic Doomsday Villain.

So the necros should be just killer machine but Tyrand are bad because they are killing bugs?.....WHY?

Also blackcherry is right: we know nothing of the hivemind, tyrands origins or their endgoals and that is part of their charm, the lest we know the more alien they look.

ChaosTicket
29-10-2015, 22:25
So the necros should be just killer machine but Tyrand are bad because they are killing bugs?.....WHY?

Also blackcherry is right: we know nothing of the hivemind, tyrands origins or their endgoals and that is part of their charm, the lest we know the more alien they look.

I know, I posted that knowing it would be a seem like a double-standard.

Tyranids come across as goofy as you guys believe, they have no actual motivation. You could replace them with another race because Tyranids fluff is empty.

Necrons on the other hands should have motivation, just not actual characters. Robot races have some kind of objective that defines them and not personalities. Daleks for example are actually cyborgs and they want to destroy everyone because they are absolute xenophobes with emotions other than hate literally hard-wired out of their brains so they are killers.

If youve even played D&D or even heard about its alignment system it has levels of complexity. Lawful Evil is interesting as its complex about evil but orderly. Chaotic Evil is just mindless destruction without any thought of consequences or planning.

Razios
30-10-2015, 04:41
I know, I posted that knowing it would be a seem like a double-standard.

Tyranids come across as goofy as you guys believe, they have no actual motivation. You could replace them with another race because Tyranids fluff is empty.

Necrons on the other hands should have motivation, just not actual characters. Robot races have some kind of objective that defines them and not personalities. Daleks for example are actually cyborgs and they want to destroy everyone because they are absolute xenophobes with emotions other than hate literally hard-wired out of their brains so they are killers.

If youve even played D&D or even heard about its alignment system it has levels of complexity. Lawful Evil is interesting as its complex about evil but orderly. Chaotic Evil is just mindless destruction without any thought of consequences or planning.

Having motivation dosent make a chararter evil or less goofy, the Tyrand are good because they dont have a clear objetive, they just ARE, and trying to guess about them is the best point about it, what is the hivemind?, where they come from? are they old ones? maybe control from the outsider...who knows?

With the necrons, we know their motivation....or more clearly, their lack of it: they are just faithfull servant of the C`tan who at the end are just a bunch of chaos god wannabe, is really jarring considering is the Necron codex, it should be about them, instead it become more and more about their master,their great and vague plan, only for having two of them active(and the nightbringer dont be intersting enought)

ntw3001
30-10-2015, 04:45
Old Necrons weren't like Daleks though. They were mindless robots who unquestioningly killed everything and did nothing else.

What would pass as an acceptable motivation for Tyranids? They accumulate resources, become more powerful and perpetuate their existence (and I'm still not clear on where the idea of the Tyranids dumbly eating themselves to death comes from when they clearly have the most successful strategy of any race in the galaxy, and appear to have been conducting that strategy for millions and millions of years). What's the Imperium's motivation? What's the Eldar's motivation? Are they not 'obtain resources, build power, perpetuate existence'?

This has been a good discussion, but I think it's going round in circles now. That's enough for me, good work everyone.

Lord Damocles
30-10-2015, 10:32
Old Necrons weren't like Daleks though. They were mindless robots who unquestioningly killed everything and did nothing else.
They also went in for resource gathering, empire (re-)building, scientific experimentation and exploration, and infiltration.

=Angel=
30-10-2015, 13:42
Back on topic- GSC's are self aware right? They know what they are doing, at least the patriarch must.
How about the cult manages to snag a magos biologis and they start him working on extracting pure tyranid dna from the hybrids/patriarch so they can engineer some bioweapons in case of emergency?

The MO of GSC's is subterfuge, but sometime soon they'll find a nut that needs to be cracked. They couldn't get anyone in the governors office for example, so they'll engineer a lictor to sneak in and assassinate him and summon the fleet whilst the planet is in chaos in the ensuing power struggle.

Or they know the planetary defenses are too well guarded so 5 distraction carnifexes in the north will allow a sabotage team to sneak in the south and sever the astropath's spines/ defesne laser control feeds.

ChaosTicket
30-10-2015, 19:59
Back on topic- GSC's are self aware right? They know what they are doing, at least the patriarch must.
How about the cult manages to snag a magos biologis and they start him working on extracting pure tyranid dna from the hybrids/patriarch so they can engineer some bioweapons in case of emergency?

The MO of GSC's is subterfuge, but sometime soon they'll find a nut that needs to be cracked. They couldn't get anyone in the governors office for example, so they'll engineer a lictor to sneak in and assassinate him and summon the fleet whilst the planet is in chaos in the ensuing power struggle.

Or they know the planetary defenses are too well guarded so 5 distraction carnifexes in the north will allow a sabotage team to sneak in the south and sever the astropath's spines/ defesne laser control feeds.

Apparently you didnt read the novel where a planetary governor is a Genestealer Hybrid.

=Angel=
04-11-2015, 10:15
Apparently you didnt read the novel where a planetary governor is a Genestealer Hybrid.

I believe I have. A Cain novel, right?
My point was there will be instances where institutions key to the defense of a world will prove resistant to infiltration, and in some cases that will include the rulers, highest levels of military clearance etc .

In those cases it may prove useful for the GSC to have access to weapon beasts in order to sufficiently undermine planetary resistance before the fleet's arrival.

ChaosTicket
06-11-2015, 00:06
Direct infiltration may be difficult, but not manipulation. I remember one anthology novel had a genestealer cult allow a military commander to enact martial law. This causes riots and other problems rather than actually go after the Genestealers themselves.

NagashLover
16-11-2015, 19:00
Obviously...the Chaos "gods" are nothing more than interdimensional parasites that attempt to make their realms larger by taking over other realities and universes.

The glorious/benevolent/all sharing hivemind, obviously not liking these party crashers, is in a race to gobble up as much resources it can in an attempt to expel these unwanted houseguests from its reality.

So you see, Tyranids are clearly the only good guys...

More to the topic.

I have no doubt that if genestealers wanted they could create non-genestealer tyranid forces. I have no doubt that a termagant could decide to speed up evolution and force itself to have wings. None of these things are beyond what any tyranid can do and is verified by the fluff. The point is, most do not/have not/can not at this time simply because the greater being that exists to drive the nids doesn't find any increased value in doing so. Those saying "according to the books this is how they do it and they can ONLY do it this way", you're missing the very crucial fact that the hivemind dictates what it can or can not accomplish.

It's really one of the main points that drew me to the faction, the flexibility/imagination/open concept of the tyranids.

ChaosTicket
16-11-2015, 20:30
Actually the fluff says the opposite. Tyranids cannot spontaneously mutate. They are programmed constructs with a specific function and little to no ability outside of that. Termagants cant grow a digestive system, gargoyles cant grow new legs, and Genestealers cannot turn into Norn Queens to birth out non-genestealers.

You can even see in the game rules units that can and cannot mutate. Chaos Possessed depending on game edition spontaneously mutate gaining and losing abilites. Do any Tyranid units have ingame mutation rules?

ntw3001
17-11-2015, 18:17
^ This. The variation in Tyranid organisms comes from design by the hive fleets; they're not shapeshifters. When a termagant is birthed, it's a termagant for the rest of its life. If the hive fleet needs gargoyles, it makes gargoyles instead of termagants.

bittick
17-11-2015, 19:15
I'm sure the Hive Mind could design something that can spontaneously mutate. We don't see that in the game rules, and we generally don't see it in the background either. But I see no reason why it would be impossible. A normal invasion force would not normally use creatures like that. It's easier to let the first batch die and produce a new unit with the characteristics you need. The next wave will have the wings, or the acid spit, or whatever. However, we do have cases of certain animals (the Catachan Devil, I think, maybe a few others) where Imperial researchers believe they may have had Tyranid ancestors. That means at least some Nid creatures have full digestive and reproductive systems.

Overall I think that's the kind of thing the Hive Fleet leaves behind as a giant middle finger to the galaxy. You dump some critters on a world after the invasion has failed, and they quietly sit there and mutate and grow. You hope that they sit there undisturbed and that their growth goes similar to an Ork tribe, that they eventually take over the ecosystem and they start birthing Hive Tyrants and living space ships. Might work, might not, but it's a much more subtle approach than their typical invasion. Theoretically, a lot of Tyranid organisms might have a bunch of extra DNA that they aren't using. In the right conditions, those genes could become active. You could have regular Hormagaunts, the ones designed to die after a few days. And then you could have long-term Hormagaunts, who have stomachs and intestines, and can eat, and can breed. It's one of those Jurassic Park type events, where if they are out of the presence of the Hive Mind for too long a time, they get instinctive behavior to hide somewhere and mate.

ChaosTicket
17-11-2015, 20:35
There have been background materials explaining various attempts to make self-mutating tyranids(as stated several pages ago), but those have flaws. They cant be mass-produced, they are a danger with possible uncontrollable mutations to an entire hive fleet, theyre destroyed while testing, etc.

Tyranids function like biological weapons of war. Think of them like tanks. You produce different models and you can produce some variants of those models, but once they are built you have you cant really change them without bringing them back to the factory. Tyranids "factory' would be the Hive fleets recycling living and dead tyranids to make the next generation or improved organic weapons.

Again, tyranids dont actually evolve. They change the DNA at the source while cloning new batches. They are intentionally created. "Accidents" dont exist. Tyranids breeds are intentionally handicapped as otherwise they might evolve to become immune to the Hive Mind.
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Tyranids free of the Hive Mind might be an interesting for a storyline, but the Hive Mind would allow that to happen as Tyranids are literally controlled down the DNA. Smart, long lived, or self-reproducing Tyranids would be dangerous.

If youve ever seen anything about robots turning on their creators you may have a good idea.

Razios
22-11-2015, 17:35
Tyranids free of the Hive Mind might be an interesting for a storyline, but the Hive Mind would allow that to happen as Tyranids are literally controlled down the DNA. Smart, long lived, or self-reproducing Tyranids would be dangerous.

If youve ever seen anything about robots turning on their creators you may have a good idea.

It dosent help that so far we have not idea what the hell is the mind hive at all, a entity of the warp? some remote control use?....what? we don really know

totgeboren
23-11-2015, 02:08
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Tyranids free of the Hive Mind might be an interesting for a storyline, but the Hive Mind would allow that to happen as Tyranids are literally controlled down the DNA. Smart, long lived, or self-reproducing Tyranids would be dangerous.

If youve ever seen anything about robots turning on their creators you may have a good idea.

Hive fleet Colossus was basically this idea, or a mashup of this idea and Zoats. I personally really like it. :)