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Harwammer
04-09-2015, 12:57
I remember genestealer cults in my 2nd boxed set. Didn't really see much of them apart from the occasional mention in white dwarf.

This thread isn't about that, though.

I know a genestealer cult is mentioned in the current chaos space marine codex, so that tells me they still exist in 'current' material, but I am sure (like everything else) they don't work quite the same as they used to.

I want to know what modern information there is on Genestealer cults and how they operate.

-Xenos Inquisitor Harwammer

Lord Damocles
04-09-2015, 15:12
Background on cults remains basically unchanged (what little of it there has been) since 2nd edition.

Rogue Star
04-09-2015, 20:01
Background on cults remains basically unchanged (what little of it there has been) since 2nd edition.

This. GW only pays lip service to the idea with the odd mention, normally connected to the Tyranids, where Genestealers remain a troop choice. No effort has been made to revitalize or update the idea. No one knows if a "Brood Lord" is a new name for the Genestealer Patriarch or something else, and the Deathstorm novel had a bit of a background hiccup (a Broodlord born to corrupted nobles, who is the monsterous brother of the planetary governor), where the infected parents immediately sired a broodlord... ignoring the whole, first, second, third and fourth generations thing to get back to purestrains...

Harwammer
04-09-2015, 21:10
Sounds like I might need to get me some Deathstorm... does the novel or the boxed game go into cults much beyond what you have mentioned? I mean, it must do, surely?

Lord Damocles
05-09-2015, 09:47
No one knows if a "Brood Lord" is a new name for the Genestealer Patriarch...
Really it shouldn't be, because the Patriarch was just an old Genestealer, however the 5th edition Codex: Tyranids uses 'Broodlord' to refer to what would previously have been called a Patriarch, and they're clearly both similar concepts.

It is possible that Broodlord is intended as a more generic term, which covers a variety of creatures (similarly to how Necrons Lords could be nobles, military commanders, bodyguards, priests etc., but are all just lumped together under one title).

memitchell747
06-09-2015, 20:28
The Patriarch was more than an old Genestealer. It was an old Genestealer that had started a Cult. The Cult's psychic presence enhanced the Patriarch into a bloated Slann-like creature.

In the Tyranid Codex, and the latest Space Hulk editions, Broodlords are "The oldest and most powerful Genestealers." Cults with hybrids are mentioned in the codex. But, Patriarch's are not. The brood/cult is led by a Broodlord. And, the GS Cults were further marginalized into Tyranid dupes. It would seem Broodlords serve the role of Patriarchs, but Patriarchs are no more. Since there hasn't been a Patriarch model made in 20 years, nor any Genestealer Cult rules, I'd say the old, fat, blingged out, capitalist robber baron, limo-riding Patriarch is as passť as Genestealer Chaos Cults. Of course not writing rules for them does not necessarily mean none of the old GS Cult background is no longer "true." They do turn up in 40K novels in their old iterations. If you really loved the limo and the bling, and really got into the concept that the most evil thing in the universe is best represented by a fat-cat, bejeweled, corrupt, corporate Boss, then no one can officially tell you no.

Lord Damocles
08-09-2015, 18:31
The 4th edition Codex: Tyranids (pgs.36/39) explicitly lists the Broodlord as a separate species to other genestealer strains (hence the suggestion that 'Broodlord' might refer to a variety of different Tyranid types).

Not having a model or rules for any period of time is no indication that something is no longer present in background (as examples like robots, conversion beamers and Exocrines illustrate).


Possibly my last post should have read something more like, 'Really it shouldn't be, because the Patriarch was just an old Genestealer; while the Broodlord isn't necessarily especially old, or even the same species'.

memitchell747
08-09-2015, 23:27
In the Space Hulk game and novel, Broodlords are definitely bigger Genestealers. I agree a lack of models and rules does not mean the Patriarch and GSC have been "Sqauated." But the Patriarch concept and model has been replaced by the Broodlord. And, the GSC would need some serious love to make a comeback.

Dryaktylus
09-09-2015, 01:54
Background on cults remains basically unchanged (what little of it there has been) since 2nd edition.


... ignoring the whole, first, second, third and fourth generations thing to get back to purestrains...

Actually, this is something they brought back with Space Hulk 3rd edition. 40k 2nd edition ignored the whole generation cycle from Paul Murphy's superb background, we got interbreeding hybrids which could produce more hybrids or purestrains instead (so if you think one step further - I doubt Mr Chambers did that - you have pregnant hybrids...).

Lord Damocles
20-02-2016, 17:03
Update:

So Patriarchs are very much still a thing (http://www.dakkadakka.com/s/i/at/at2/2016/2/20/ffc42fbd5c4d8c34bebd39930c6a0fd0_5394.jpg).

*blows raspberry*

Nazguire
20-02-2016, 17:44
Update:

So Patriarchs are very much still a thing (http://www.dakkadakka.com/s/i/at/at2/2016/2/20/ffc42fbd5c4d8c34bebd39930c6a0fd0_5394.jpg).

*blows raspberry*


Do you ever get sick of being right? :D

Great news that Genestealer Cults are back in business

Rogue Star
20-02-2016, 18:39
According to the little information leaked in the Deathwatch: Operation Overkill blurb - Genestealer Cults seem to be largely unchanged! They did add "Aberrants" , which seem to be what happens when the Genestealer and host's DNA don't quite mix correctly, which is a logical evolution, and I welcome them with monstrous arms. :D

KevinC
21-02-2016, 02:55
Hi guys!

I'm thrilled.

Back in the good old days I played both a Genestealer Invasion Force and Genestealer Cult in the 1st and 2nd editions of 40K. I stopped playing 40K when 3rd edition came out.

I'm thrilled they are bringing the cult back!

This is how it all works:

Genestealers use to (I don't know the current fluff) have an implant attack, known as the "Genestealer Kiss," because they would stick their tongues down an enemy throat to implant them with their genes.

After a host is infected they return to their society not remembering what happened. Their offspring will be a First Generation Genestealer Hybrid, who looks closer to a purestrain Genestealer, and the parents will love, protect, and hide their monstrous children from the rest of society. The First Generation Hybrid's offspring will be a Second Generation Genestealer Hybrid. With each generation, they look more and more human. Until the Fourth Generation Hybrid looks almost fully human (i.e. the Magus). The fourth Generation Hybrid's offspring will be a full purestrain Genestealer.

The Hybrids form secret cults within their societies with the original Genestealer as the brood-father or Patriarch. He is worshipped as a god. The cult will try and take over the government by insidiously planting their agents in the government hierarchy.

In the originally list, they could make pacts with Chaos and even have rules for possessing Genestealer Patriarchs with daemons. Mutants and Beastment are also attracted to the cult.

Hope that helps.

Ohman
21-02-2016, 20:44
The background that KevinC describes is the one that I'm most familiar with. One thing that I've always wondered about though is the Patriarch. In most stories and background the first infection usually happens when some rogue scavanger/pirate/mercenary encounters a genestealer on a space hulk. It seems to be rather rare for a genestealer to have the oppurtunity to actually accompany the infected host to it's home world, yet there is always a patriarch. How does the patriarch manage to sneak on-world? Can genestealers be deployed by covert spore pods or something? I've never seen any fluff about this.

And the Primus is a new thing right, wonder if he is second or first generation?

TheBigBadWolf
22-02-2016, 10:31
The Deathwatch Graphic Novel contains a Genestealer cult and a patriarch

blackcherry
22-02-2016, 12:43
I always thought the patriarch was the original Genestealer that started the infestation, bloated to a grotesque size.

Perhaps they are smuggled in by those they implant? After all, one needs a ship to reach the space hulks they lurk on.

Grarik
22-02-2016, 13:34
Genestealers tend to hitch rides on transports trying to escape the incoming hive fleet, if they make it to a planet/space station/etc they'll start the process of creating a cult

insectum7
22-02-2016, 21:26
Update:

So Patriarchs are very much still a thing (http://www.dakkadakka.com/s/i/at/at2/2016/2/20/ffc42fbd5c4d8c34bebd39930c6a0fd0_5394.jpg).

*blows raspberry*

Holy **** that is awesome! I thought for sure genestealer cults would never see the light of day (officially) again.

Edit: They even got the little genestealer familiars. I wonder what role they will play.

*Really hopes for the Patriarch and Magi to have access to Malefic Daemonology for old times sake.

Azazyll
23-02-2016, 12:53
Having read all the fluff blurbs in the leaked pictures, all the old cult lore in in play. They even came up with an interesting if generic explanation for the little familiars, which are simply psychic warp manifestations of the magus. Perhaps lending to chaos alliances as with the cults of old, as seen in the old patriarch throne? It does seem to leave the possibility of using malefic daemonology at least.

The other new unit is a hybrid leader (primus I think) which fills a needed character slot - someone to lead the cc hybrid units.

Lord Damocles
23-02-2016, 13:01
The other new unit is a hybrid leader (primus I think) which fills a needed character slot - someone to lead the cc hybrid units.
The Primus looks like a re-named Heirarch from the Citadel Journal list.

Humanoid
23-02-2016, 13:39
Current? How about the past? This was my first exposure to the Genestealer Cult ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Hulk under 1st edition states "Genestealer, a box set, was released in 1990. It introduced the Genestealer Cult including Human-Genestealer Hybrids and the Magus and the Patriarch into the game, which greatly expanded the tactical possibilities for the Genestealer player."

Page 6 of the "Rules and Missions" booklet for the "Genestealer" expansion under the "Hybrid Psykers" heading states:


All Genestealers are psychic. They share a limited form of telepathy that lets the members of a brood communicate. They also use their power to hypnotise their victims before striking to implant their seed, lulling them into submission and then erasing the event from their minds. Only when the much-loved firstborn of such a victim arrives does the truth become apparent - by then the victim is ensared, bonded in his Hybrid child by chains of parental love, strengthened by the pull of the Hybrid's latent psychic power. From the beginning, a brood of Hybrids and followers will grow, owing allegiance to their founder and Patriarch.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Crusade#Advanced_Space_Crusade states "Advanced Space Crusade was a modular board game published in 1990 by Games Workshop and Milton Bradley."

Page 58 of the "Advanced Space Crusade" booklet under the "Genestealers" heading states:


... Genestealers are the shock and infiltration troops of the Tyranids. They are fast and deadly but they can also hide in alien societies for years, interbreeding with the native creatures and producing generations of Hybrid Genestealer creatures ready to join a full-scale invansion.

Although it seems unlikely that a creature so terrifying as a Genestealer could hide in human society, they achieve this by implanting their genetic structure inside unsuspecting humans. This genetic material is passed down to the offspring of the infected humans, creating a generation which includes monstrous Genestealer Hybrids as well as seemingly normal children. The Hybrids are genetic time bombs whose own descendants will eventually become fully-developed Purestrain Genestealers. The effect is quite horrifying - suddenly for no apparent reason monstrous Genestealers start to appear all over the world, destroying and enslaving humans in preparation for the arrival of the Tyranid hive fleet. Mature Genestealers, called Patriarchs act as psychic beacons which attract the Tyranid hive fleets, signalling that their world is ready for invasion. ...

Azazyll
23-02-2016, 14:07
The Primus looks like a re-named Heirarch from the Citadel Journal list.

Ah, I never got that one; I was really turned off by the limos.

memitchell747
24-02-2016, 18:23
Before everyone who predicted this revival of a 25 year-old dormant 40K faction pats themselves on the back, note how really retro is this revival. This game brilliantly (or, deviously) portrays the FIRST Imperial encounter with any GSC. So, in the fluff, before the RT GSC Chaos infused army list, before the advent of Tyranids. Before the Broodlord. It's back-to-the-future background! So, the game does not directly answer the OP's question. Though the 48 page rulebook (3 pages of rules) probably, or possibly updates the GSC to current 40K timeline. But, maybe not. Honestly, I hope not. "Tyranid dupes" depresses me.

Lord Damocles
24-02-2016, 19:44
This game brilliantly (or, deviously) portrays the FIRST Imperial encounter with any GSC
Where do we know this from?

Besides which, Overkill is set sometime after ~500.M41 (- 745.M41), which is pretty much 'modern day' (ie.999.M41).

memitchell747
24-02-2016, 21:39
Where do we know this from?

Besides which, Overkill is set sometime after ~500.M41 (- 745.M41), which is pretty much 'modern day' (ie.999.M41).

http://cdn.bols.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/1462042_10153478899243546_1873643318_n.jpg

Azazyll
25-02-2016, 00:21
Where do we know this from?

Besides which, Overkill is set sometime after ~500.M41 (- 745.M41), which is pretty much 'modern day' (ie.999.M41).


http://cdn.bols.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/1462042_10153478899243546_1873643318_n.jpg

Considering the imperium had not yet formally encountered three of the current major races (Tau at the Damocles Gulf Crusade, Tyranids at Tyran and Necrons at Sanctuary 101), I would debate that it could constitute the same era of history. In fact it seems deliberately meant to evoke an earlier era of history, or what would be the point at all?

Where exactly do brood brothers fit in here? I note none of the new models are so described.

memitchell747
25-02-2016, 04:46
I'm no 40K Lore Master. But, by invoking the powers of Warhammer Wiki, we learn that The Ultramarine Cassius is alive and kicking in the current timeline. He's 400 years old. He fought in the First Tyrannic War (Hive Fleet Behemoth, McCraigge), which was probably 250 years before the current time? And, before that against the Ghosar GSC in the game. So, the first GSC was encountered less than 400 years before the current time.

Azazyll
25-02-2016, 14:09
It's like arguing when the Middle Ages ended and the early modern period began - there's no right answer because eras of history are simply convenient labels to help people understand the past.

It does complicate the picture to have beings that can live hundreds or thousands of years. Translated into our own time though Cassius would be old enough to have fought in the English Civil War and possibly even known Shakespeare. Dante would already have been considered a veteran at the Battle of Hastings.

The point for the change of an era is not length of time but what has happened to fundamentally alter the historical circumstances. The arrival of the Tyranids, return of the Necrons, coming of age for the Tau as a major if regional player, perhaps even the Badab War and Huron's rise in the Maelstrom, not to mention the second and third wars for Armageddon and the thirteenth Black Crusade, each portrayed as the largest of their kind in millennia, points to a significant shift in historical circumstances.

Which makes sense, because the point of the background is to add narrative urgency to the gameplay. It's very clear that the writers of 40k lore have for more than a decade intended the setting to reflect a turning point in history. And despite a vocal minority who prefer to wage "ordinary" battles with lasers and aliens in the far future and complain about special characters being everywhere, that seems to be a good narrative choice.

This mini game seems to be a deliberate move away from that, a period just before the major changes - Rome in 45 BC, Spain in 1491, anywhere on Earth in 1913. Perhaps that's inspired by SpaceHulk (created by GW before many of the current events of 40k were added), or perhaps by the new Beast Arises trend expanding to other "historical" eras besides the Heresy.

Denny
25-02-2016, 14:41
It could also simply be to make a more exciting story for the inevitable tie in novel.

Deathwatch taking out a genestealer cult? Pretty typical day at the office.
Deathwatch encountering the first known genestealer cult? Horrific journey into uncertainty filled with startling revelations.

Its the difference between watching Aliens and watching a film where a bunch of marines are sent in to clear out their two hundredth Alien infested colony.

memitchell747
25-02-2016, 15:07
Difference between the Starship Troopers movie and the ST TV series.

The FIRST GSC is already enticing. And, yes, it is a 40K flashback to right before everything went to hell. Like Rick and Elsa in Paris, before the Nazi invasion forces them to move to Casablanca.

Lord Malorne
25-02-2016, 15:29
Genestealer Cults have appeared in some Black Library books, most notably to me is in the Ciaphis Cain series, I also think there is the odd mention over time of cults in the brief paragraph histories of encounters in various army books that said I could not quote any. As said by Lord Damocles though, no really change or retconning of them that I could point to.

memitchell747
25-02-2016, 20:05
Again, going on very little information (until next week), this Ghosar Mining Cult is markedly different from previous GSC folklore. Contrast it with the cults of Deathwing and The Alien Beast Within. No bloated, bejeweled Patriarch. Instead, a lean mean fighting machine Broodlord lookalike. Instead of poor broodkin workers exploited by the evil Genestealer corporation or duped by a closet religious cult. We get...um...Miners exploited by the evil Genestealer Mining Consortium? I dunno, but it feels different. I mean, no brood brothers and sisters slaving away in inhuman conditions. Instead, inhuman hybrids putting in a hard days work in the mines. Who knows, maybe they get profit sharing and dental.

"I was born a Coal Miner's Hybrid."

Ohman
05-03-2016, 12:04
How did the Broodlord get on to Ghosar Quintus? Is this mentioned in the game?

Ambience 327
05-03-2016, 17:15
In White Dwarf 110, on page 12, the last paragraph, it is postulated that the purestrain who became the Patriarch of Ghosar Quintus arrived via a small section of a Space Hulk called "Curse of Unreason" that broke off and came into proximity of the Ghosar system. From previous stories and background I have read, I assume that some hapless souls decided to attempt a salvage mission on this Space Hulk fragment and came back with more than they bargained for.

The Black Shield
05-03-2016, 19:51
One of my favorite mentions of a Genesteeler cult is the one in a Ciaphas Cain novels where they were running a brothel that was frequented by the Imperial Guard when they were on leave on the planet.

memitchell747
05-03-2016, 23:36
In White Dwarf 110, on page 12, the last paragraph, it is postulated that the purestrain who became the Patriarch of Ghosar Quintus arrived via a small section of a Space Hulk called "Curse of Unreason" that broke off and came into proximity of the Ghosar system. From previous stories and background I have read, I assume that some hapless souls decided to attempt a salvage mission on this Space Hulk fragment and came back with more than they bargained for.

And, in typical 40K Lore time compression, that event occurred 1500 years before the events portrayed in the game.

Matthueycamo
06-03-2016, 03:06
One of my favorite mentions of a Genesteeler cult is the one in a Ciaphas Cain novels where they were running a brothel that was frequented by the Imperial Guard when they were on leave on the planet.

That is a pretty sweet tactic lol.

R.D.
06-03-2016, 04:45
Overkill finally confirms that a Patriarch is just a big evolved Broodlord, for what it's worth.

Lord Damocles
06-03-2016, 08:50
Overkill finally confirms that a Patriarch is just a big evolved Broodlord, for what it's worth.
Does it? Because the White Dwarf with the cult rules (110) explicitly describes the Patriarch as a purestrain genestealer twice:

'The first Purestrain Genestealer to infect a victim with the Genestealer Curse will become the Patriarch, changing physically to become the cult's blasphemous figurehead.' (pg.13)

'One for the Purestrain Genestealers, the first to have shared it's abominable Curse, will be transmogrified, changed through some hideous metamorphosis until it becomes a Genestealer Patriarch. Bestowed with prodigious psychic gifts, the Patriarch becomes a lodestone for the cult.' (pg.14)

Lycannus
06-03-2016, 10:53
Does it? Because the White Dwarf with the cult rules (110) explicitly describes the Patriarch as a purestrain genestealer twice:

'The first Purestrain Genestealer to infect a victim with the Genestealer Curse will become the Patriarch, changing physically to become the cult's blasphemous figurehead.' (pg.13)

'One for the Purestrain Genestealers, the first to have shared it's abominable Curse, will be transmogrified, changed through some hideous metamorphosis until it becomes a Genestealer Patriarch. Bestowed with prodigious psychic gifts, the Patriarch becomes a lodestone for the cult.' (pg.14)

This
From what I understand from various sources, the difference is a broodlord is a mutation that occurs once enough purestrains are together, spanned by the hive mind to be an even more deadly killer, whereas the patriarch is the original purestrains who evolves to be the local equivalent of the hive mind, a cult could technically have a patriarch and broodlord if big enough (with the patriarch being in charge) but I'd say very rare and by that time the hive fleets would be in orbit...

R.D.
06-03-2016, 15:55
Does it? Because the White Dwarf with the cult rules (110) explicitly describes the Patriarch as a purestrain genestealer twice:

'The first Purestrain Genestealer to infect a victim with the Genestealer Curse will become the Patriarch, changing physically to become the cult's blasphemous figurehead.' (pg.13)

'One for the Purestrain Genestealers, the first to have shared it's abominable Curse, will be transmogrified, changed through some hideous metamorphosis until it becomes a Genestealer Patriarch. Bestowed with prodigious psychic gifts, the Patriarch becomes a lodestone for the cult.' (pg.14)

A quote at the end of the Overkill rulebook calls the Patriarch an evolved Broodlord.

memitchell747
06-03-2016, 20:09
Overkill finally confirms that a Patriarch is just a big evolved Broodlord, for what it's worth.


A quote at the end of the Overkill rulebook calls the Patriarch an evolved Broodlord.

It also quotes an Chaplain Cassius' report and calls it "an immense Broodlord grown strong and tall through the efforts of its followers." The Imperial "reports" in the book also refer to Broodlord's as 'Alpha Genestealers." And, the reports would be written a century before the Tyranids were encountered by the Imperium.

I don't know how Broodlords come about. But, it takes a Cult to supply the psychic enhancement that makes a Patriarch. I don't know how smart a Broodlord is. But, a Patriarch can run a successful mining operation for centuries. Broodlord+Cult+CEO=Patriarch.

Lord Damocles
06-03-2016, 20:37
It also quotes an Chaplain Cassius' report and calls it "an immense Broodlord grown strong and tall through the efforts of its followers." The Imperial "reports" in the book also refer to Broodlord's as 'Alpha Genestealers."
That would seem to support my supposition earlier that 'Broodlord' could be a term for multiple different creatures (Patriarchs, Genestealer Alphas, leader beasts of a different distinct species).

EDIT: Similarly to how 'Gaunt' refers to a number of different creatures (Termagants, Spinegaunts etc.).

memitchell747
07-03-2016, 06:00
Except the Patriarch is also psychic. With a psychically enthralled devoted following.

Gdolkin
17-03-2016, 23:19
I've been trying to figure out the genestealers' reproduction and if it makes any sense, because I'm a foolish nerd, and sadly it seems WD110 p13 says they "impregnate a human in a diabolical act known as the Genestealer kiss. So stricken, the host-victim becomes an unwitting carrier to an alien that grows within it, gestating until it is birthed in a sickly display of blood and chitin." Now, this sounds more like the Alien movies, whereas I was under the impression a genestealer 'infected' a victim with a sort of 'seed' of genetic virus that 'rewrote' their DNA and corrupted their reproductive system such that if and when they reproduced with another member of their own species, hastened by a compulsion to breed introduced along with the genetic alteration and psychic dominion inflicted by the Genestealer's Kiss, their offspring will be a first generation hybrid. That WD quote could be generously interpreted to be still consistent with that I suppose, but it doesn't sound like the insidious perversion and corruption of human family life and love that it should eh.

At what generation can hybrids reproduce 'normally'? Do First and Second Gen's kiss with tongues ;) while Third and Fourths get laid but rely for partners on those already in the cult through birth or infection? Do the cults have a taboo on incest? What kind of hybrid do we get if a male 4th gen hybrid mates with a human woman who's been kissed and infected by a 2nd gen hybrid? This strays into distasteful questions of whether 3rd and 4th gen hybrids retain the mesmerising, memory-wiping psychic rohypnol of their genestealer forefathers..

What of subsequent children? Say a Genestealer infects a man, that man breeds with a woman, the woman will become subject to the psychic bond of loyalty, love and protection the hybrid growing inside her begins to generate, but are her eggs still human? She was never kissed by a stealer, she just slept with the wrong guy. If she births and raises her hybrid child, and somehow escapes the hive mind of the brood cult, could she still breed with an uninfected male safely? Is she also brought under the psychic influence of love, acceptance, protection etc of the original genestealer who infected the father of her hybrid child, or is she only compelled by the hybrid child alone's developing psychic aura? Is 'not screaming and running from genestealers' transmitted like an STI along with a contagii's corrupted sperm or eggs, or is it purely a matter of psychic auras and hypnotic eyes? An 'unkissed' human mother to a hybrid will love and nurture the infant, but will also be drawn to and feel familial love rather than disgust and terror for the future patriarch genestealer that infected her baby's father, so does this unnatural bond to an alien come transmitted physically via the infected male, or is it solely psychic feedback generated between the mother, her child and the child's 3rd 'parent'..?

Shouldn't there be a few female hybrid/broodkin models really eh? Some of those 1st and 2nd Gen could be female I guess..

Just looked back at the quote from Advanced Space Crusade posted by Humanoid at top of page 2. It says the First generation includes 'monstrous hybrids as well as seemingly normal children'. How can that be? Any child of a human infected directly by a purestrain genestealer must be a 50/50 hybrid, surely? No hybrid born of infected parents appears 'normal' until the 4th generation, no?

Also, and perhaps significantly for whether it all makes any kind of suspend-your-disbelief sense, do genestealer genetics speed up the typical human gestation and maturation process at all? It was trying to figure out how many cultists a single Genestealer could 'sire' in how much time that got me asking all these questions y'see..

Also also, I don't understand this whole confusion between Broodlords and Patriarchs: When a bunch of Genestealers are lurking in a Space Hulk waiting for foolish humans/whatever to turn up and the oldest one becomes the focus of their brood mind and big brother of them all, that's a Broodlord. When a single gene stealer (or at any rate the first of a few) succeeds in infiltrating human society and infecting humans, psychic feedback from its growing brood triggers its development into a Patriarch. Any purestrain has the potential to become either if it ends up in the right environment, Rightish?

Fangschrecken
18-03-2016, 19:34
I would assume that the larger a cult is the larger the broodlord becomes. So the one we see in Deathwatch Overkill may have a smaller cult surrounding it than the bloated behemoths from previous stories.

Another thought, the older model for the patriarch looks like a giant 1st/2nd gen hybrid. If the founding broodlord is killed wouldn't the cult's psychic energy flow towards a new master? perhaps a psychically attuned hybrid?

Saunders
18-03-2016, 19:47
For the record, all broodlords/patriarchs are purestrain genestealers. Few purestrain genestealers are broodlords/patriarchs, though. Just sounds like a Patriarch is a Brood Lord at the head of an entrenched cult.


Another thought, the older model for the patriarch looks like a giant 1st/2nd gen hybrid. If the founding broodlord is killed wouldn't the cult's psychic energy flow towards a new master? perhaps a psychically attuned hybrid?

*Speculation*
I would wager that another purestrain genestealer would fill the void. I don't think a hybrid serving as a direct conduit for the Hive Mind fits the picture. Heck, I would be less surprised if a, early generational cult breaks the chain of hybridization and someone births a purestrain genestealer early. Either way, the death of the Patriarch is certainly a huge setback that I don't think the hybrids are programmed to compensate for.

Gdolkin
19-03-2016, 08:41
I would assume that the larger a cult is the larger the broodlord becomes. So the one we see in Deathwatch Overkill may have a smaller cult surrounding it than the bloated behemoths from previous stories.

Another thought, the older model for the patriarch looks like a giant 1st/2nd gen hybrid. If the founding broodlord is killed wouldn't the cult's psychic energy flow towards a new master? perhaps a psychically attuned hybrid?


For the record, all broodlords/patriarchs are purestrain genestealers. Few purestrain genestealers are broodlords/patriarchs, though. Just sounds like a Patriarch is a Brood Lord at the head of an entrenched cult.



*Speculation*
I would wager that another purestrain genestealer would fill the void. I don't think a hybrid serving as a direct conduit for the Hive Mind fits the picture. Heck, I would be less surprised if a, early generational cult breaks the chain of hybridization and someone births a purestrain genestealer early. Either way, the death of the Patriarch is certainly a huge setback that I don't think the hybrids are programmed to compensate for.

-The cult of Ghosar Quintus 'numbers in the thousands'.
-Given that WD states that the first Genestealer to infect a populace becomes the Patriarch, it must be possible for one of his 'Purestrain Princeling' brothers to become the new focus of the cult's brood mind and begin Patriarching, given time, but there will be a period of panic and confusion and irrationality, I'd have thought.
-If it happens to be the brood lord of a nomadic nest of stealers that makes it to a human planet and is first to infect a host, I guess that brood lord would become the Patriarch, but a brood lord is triggered by a certain amount of other, younger purestrains around it whereas a patriarch is triggered by it's growing brood of hybrid descendants.

memitchell747
20-03-2016, 01:04
The Patriarch of old was NOT a Broodlord. There were NO Broodlords. The later Tyranid army's Broodlord was/is NOT a Patriarch. There were NO Patriarchs. Broodlords show up in Space Hulk versions 3 & 4, but are NOT Patriarchs. Deathwatch calls the psychic leader of its Genestealer Cult a Patriarch (the first use of that term, and the first GSC rules, in a boardgame or 40K in nearly 20 years). AND they also call him a Broodlord. If there is a rational difference, it's for convenience. And, no doubt, older codexes and blurbs and novels contradict any or all of this. GW exists in the present. If calling a Broodlord a Patriarch, or calling a Patriarch a Broodlord, or calling them both Patriarch and Broodlord, sells models, they don't care. They routinely violate their own IP.

Lord Damocles
20-03-2016, 11:39
Deathwatch calls the psychic leader of its Genestealer Cult a Patriarch (the first use of that term, and the first GSC rules, in a boardgame or 40K in nearly 20 years). AND they also call him a Broodlord.
I don't know if Deathwatch: Ignition says anything on the matter, but from my look through of the book which comes in the boxed game, the only mention of the Patriarch being a Broodlord (or the terms being used interchangeably) is in an in-universe report by Cassius. Given that this is (apparently) the Imperium's first encounter with a cult - and thus a Patriarch - it would be understandable if Cassius described the cult leader as being a Broodlord (even without 'Broodlord' being an umbrella term).

Patriarchs did show up in For The Emperor and the Citadel Journal list (probably amongst other places) in the period they were 'missing'.

Humanoid
20-03-2016, 14:13
As a member of the genestealer cult on a human planet, I am going to answer some questions ...

Q: How does a genestealer infect a living human host?
A: The infection from a genestealer works by implanting an organic molecule into the host. Since the mouth and throat have their biological defenses, the genestealer provides a flood of the organic molecules to ensure that the biological defenses are overwhelmed and cannot stop all instances of the organic molecule from entering the host. The organic molecule replicates itself until it has one copy of itself in every cell of the host.

Q: How does procreation by a human host produce a purestrain or a hybrid?
A: Every sperm and egg of a host has an instance of the organic molecule. In the fertilization of an ovum with a sperm, the organic molecule activates during the fusion of the chromosomes to alter the genetic code. As the zygote divides, the organic molecule continues to replicate itself to be in the new cells. The creation of a hybrid or a purestrain genestealer depends on the organic molecule and parent genetic alteration as follows:
- If only one instance of the organic molecule is present, and no previous alteration has occured, then the offspring will most likely be a hybrid with slight genestealer differences to the parents.
- If only one instance of the organic molecule is present, and a previous alteration has occured, then the offspring will most likely be a hybrid with advanced genestealer differences to the parents.
- If both sperm and ovum contained an instance of the organic molecule, and no previous alteration has occured, then the offspring will most likely be a hybrid with advanced genestealer differences to the parents.
- If both sperm and ovum contained an instance of the organic molecule, and a previous alteration has occured, then the offspring will most likely be a purestrain genestealer.

Q: What happens to the organic molecule when the cell dies?
A: The organic molecule disintegrates into parts.

Q: Can the Tyranid hive fleet psychically signal the Patriarch too?
A: Yes.

Q: Is the psychic signal instantaneous?
A: No. Across such vast distances, nothing is instantaneous. Thus, there is a travel time for the psychic signal.

Q: What is the minimum time before the Tyranid hive fleet arrives?
A: There is a handshake protocol of psychic signals between the Patriarch and the Tyranid hive fleet as follows:
- Patriarch to Tyranid hive fleet: Origination
- Tyranid hive fleet to Patriarch: Acknowledgement to Origination
- Patriarch to Tyranid hive fleet: Acknowledgement to Acknowledgement
The receipt of each acknowledgement provides a means of the receiver to determine the relative distance between the transmitter and receiver. As further protocol handshakes occur while the Tyranid hive fleet travels towards the Patriarch, a more accurate travel time can be determined.

Q: Does the psychic signal contain any information?
A: The Patriarch encodes information in the psychic signal such as the biomass rating and level of the planet, growth extrapolation to full biomass, the time needed to prepare to undermine the planetary defenses, and the time needed to execute the plan to undermine the planetary defenses. The Tyranid hive fleet encodes information in the psychic signal such as the capability to invade. Together, the Patriach and the Tyranid hive fleet determine and coordinate the plans of the invasion to minimize losses to the Tyranid hive fleet and to maximize biomass capture.

Q: How long before the Tyranid hive fleet attacks?
A: The Tyranid hive fleet decides when to attack the planet using information from the Patriarch. This time may be much longer than the minimum travel time by decades or centuries. The Tyranid hive fleet wants to provide the Genestealer Cult with enough time to undermine the planetary defenses and to increase the biomass to its maximum.

Q: What biomass is preferred by the Tyranid hive fleet?
A: The presence of the organic molecule or the Genestealer/Tyranid genetic material has the flaw of inhibiting or preventing mutations that lead to diverse high-order organisms. Thus, the Tyranid hive fleet considers molecules from high-order organisms as the top priority.

Q: How does the Genestealer Cult help minimalize losses to the Tyranid hive fleet and maximize biomass capture?
A: The ultimate objective of the Genestealer Cult is to take control of the planetary defense force such that not one shot is fired at the Tyranid hive fleet, the biomass is preserved unscathed, the planetary infrastructures remain untouched, and the biomass can be shipped into space using the planetary merchant fleet like a cattle drive to an abattoir. Disease suppression and population explosion are two means of increasing the biomass of high-order organisms.

Q: How does the Genestealer Cult achieve its ultimate objective?
A: The Genestealer Cult on a planet splits itself into many, many covens. Each coven avoids contact with any other coven except through psychic communication. Through the psychic communication, each coven receives one or more objectives which support the ultimate objective.

Q: How does the Genestealer Cult remain undetected?
A: The Genestealer Cult digs and uses tunnels to live and travel, and to attack the command and communications centers of the planetary defense force at the appropriate time. Hybrid and purestrain genestealer are capable of living in extreme environments such as those deep underground without artificial air circulation. Thus, the hybrids can tunnel deep vertically before tunnelling horizontally without the need of ventilation shafts. The tunnels need to go deep to avoid the seismic sensors of the planetary defense force. Hybrids use mining lasers which are quiet. However, rock strata may crack and tremble when cut by the mining lasers. One example to mask the crack and tremble of the rock strata was to introduce fracking as the reason for the seismic sensors recording small tremors.

Q: What happens after a Tyranid hive fleet harvests the biomass from a planet?
A: The Tyranid hive fleet cleanses the planet of their organic molecule or Genestealer/Tyranid genetic material in the native flora and fauna. The Tyranid hive fleet does not strip the planet of all biomass, but leaves enough biomass such that the planet will bloom once again with diverse high-order organisms. If possible, but not necessary, the Tyranid hive fleet will leave the human infrastructures in place. The Tyranid hive fleet leaves behind purestrain genestealers in stasis, especially the Patriarch, to emerge at the appropriate time when the planet has bloomed once again.

Q: What is a Broodlord?
A: A Broodlord is the intentional breeding by the Genestealer Cult to create a creature that resembles a summoned daemon by the Daemonic Cult. The Genestealer Cult tunnels to a basement wall of a building of the Daemonic Cult, and waits. When the congregation of the Daemonic Cult meets in secret to worship their deity, the Genestealer Cult completes the tunnel into the Daemonic Cult building, and unleases the Broodlord into the building. The Broodlord's mission is to attack and panic the congregation, and to reveal fleeting glimpses of itself through windows as it bellows like a daemon. The Genestealer Cult anonymously contacts law enforcement about hearing screams from the building, and watches as SWAT arrives to capture and interrogate those who escaped from the building. The Broodlord escapes through the tunnel. The Genestealer Cult set fires to the building, disguises the tunnel entrance, and fills in the tunnel to the building. The Inquisition arrives to investigate the Daemonic Cult, including sifting through the ashes of a destroyed building.

Of course, as a member of the genestealer cult on a human planet, my role is to undermine the planetary defenses for the Tyranid hive fleet invasion. Often, the best way to undermine is to provide the unbelievable truth with misinformation.

memitchell747
21-03-2016, 00:36
I don't know if Deathwatch: Ignition says anything on the matter, but from my look through of the book which comes in the boxed game, the only mention of the Patriarch being a Broodlord (or the terms being used interchangeably) is in an in-universe report by Cassius. Given that this is (apparently) the Imperium's first encounter with a cult - and thus a Patriarch - it would be understandable if Cassius described the cult leader as being a Broodlord (even without 'Broodlord' being an umbrella term).

Patriarchs did show up in For The Emperor and the Citadel Journal list (probably amongst other places) in the period they were 'missing'.

Tricky business. The events of Ghosar are the first contact with a Genestealer Cult. And, pre-date the first contact with Tyranids by half a century. Now, officially, Space Hulk version 3 & 4 introduce Broodlords into the time line (in actuality, long after they were officially introduced in Tyranids codices for gaming purposes). So, one could assume the notional Broodlords existed all along with Genestealers, whether Cult, or not. Or, mentioned before, or not. The dangers of rewriting, and back fitting fluff.

Gdolkin
21-03-2016, 13:15
Humanoid, where are you getting this talk of 'organic molecules'? In your breakdown of results of hybridisation, what does 'previous alteration' refer to? Is it the Generational status of the genestealer/hybrid that has infected a host with its 'organic molecule'? I.e, does your four-point list translate as:
-1 Infected parent (1 instance of organic molecule), infected by a purestrain (no previous alteration has occurred)= First gen hybrid (slight difference to parents).. no wait this doesn't work..

It seems to me there must be more diversity of form and blurring of boundaries between the generations of hybrid, a spectrum of mutation rather than 4 discrete stages, than even the new models represent. First and Second Gens are barely distinguishable by their snouts and their feet, they all seem to have 3 arms but it's a lottery on hands or claws. 3rd Gens are more hunched than 4th, and some still have 3 arms while some have 2 arms but still claws on one of them, etc. Primus Vorgan Trysst is said to be 'of 2nd Gen stock', but he is more upright than any 3rd Gen I've seen, but still has 3 arms 1 with claws, and I'm not sure a 2nd Gen would have enough human in its mind to be a leader and strategist? If First and Second Gens also still have the ovipositor and infect victims rather than breeding normally, surely there are 1.5 and 2.25 etc Generation Hybrids being born?
Can a real geneticist come and sort this out for me please?

Humanoid
21-03-2016, 15:10
Humanoid, where are you getting this talk of 'organic molecules'?
My imagination. Oops, I mean it is "unbelievable truth with misinformation".



In your breakdown of results of hybridisation, what does 'previous alteration' refer to? Is it the Generational status of the genestealer/hybrid that has infected a host with its 'organic molecule'? I.e, does your four-point list translate as:
-1 Infected parent (1 instance of organic molecule), infected by a purestrain (no previous alteration has occurred)= First gen hybrid (slight difference to parents).. no wait this doesn't work..

By 'previous alteration', I mean that the parent of the sperm or ovum began life as one (or two) instances of the organic molecule during the fusion of the chromosomes. Thus, the parent as a 'previous alteration' has undergone some form of genestealer DNA conversion during fusion of the chromosomes.


It seems to me there must be more diversity of form and blurring of boundaries between the generations of hybrid, a spectrum of mutation rather than 4 discrete stages, than even the new models represent.
Look at the old models:
http://www.solegends.com/citcat1991a/cat1991ap102genestealers-02.htm small picture
http://www.solegends.com/citcat1991a/cat1991ap102genestealers-00.htm large picture

http://www.solegends.com/citcat1991a/cat1991ap112plastics-02.htm small picture
http://www.solegends.com/citcat1991a/cat1991ap112plastics-00.htm large picture

If one had the old plastic Genestealer Arms Sprue, then one could create 2-arm, 3-arm, and 4-arm hybrids using the various old bodies (perhaps using the current Imperial Guard Cadians too). We will have to wait and see if GW releases a multi-part plastic kit that allows us to do just that.


First and Second Gens are barely distinguishable by their snouts and their feet, they all seem to have 3 arms but it's a lottery on hands or claws. 3rd Gens are more hunched than 4th, and some still have 3 arms while some have 2 arms but still claws on one of them, etc. Primus Vorgan Trysst is said to be 'of 2nd Gen stock', but he is more upright than any 3rd Gen I've seen, but still has 3 arms 1 with claws, and I'm not sure a 2nd Gen would have enough human in its mind to be a leader and strategist? If First and Second Gens also still have the ovipositor and infect victims rather than breeding normally, surely there are 1.5 and 2.25 etc Generation Hybrids being born?

I think that you are missing the point of why I wrote my "answers to some questions". If one finds that there are gaps in the information, or it does not make sense, or one does not like it, then write or rewrite it. Myself, I am interested in reading how others see the Genestealer Cult.


Can a real geneticist come and sort this out for me please?

You may have to dig by yourself for information such as ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetics

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_fertilization "The male and female pronuclei don't fuse, although their genetic material do. Instead, their membranes dissolve, leaving no barriers between the male and female chromosomes. During this dissolution, a mitotic spindle forms between them. The spindle captures the chromosomes before they disperse in the egg cytoplasm. Upon subsequently undergoing mitosis (which includes pulling of chromatids towards centrioles in anaphase) the cell gathers genetic material from the male and female together. Thus, the first mitosis of the union of sperm and oocyte is the actual fusion of their chromosomes."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_Eve "... Because all mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) generally (but see paternal mtDNA transmission) is passed from mother to offspring without recombination, all mtDNA in every living person is directly descended from hers by definition, differing only by the mutations that over generations have occurred in the germ cell mtDNA since the conception of the original "Mitochondrial Eve"."

Gdolkin
21-03-2016, 23:20
**My interjections marked like this**



By 'previous alteration', I mean that the parent of the sperm or ovum began life as one (or two) instances of the organic molecule during the fusion of the chromosomes. Thus, the parent as a 'previous alteration' has undergone some form of genestealer DNA conversion during fusion of the chromosomes.

**So, the parent was born a hybrid themselves rather than being a 'pure' human infected at some point by a genestealer/hybrid? I still don't understand :(**


I think that you are missing the point of why I wrote my "answers to some questions". If one finds that there are gaps in the information, or it does not make sense, or one does not like it, then write or rewrite it. Myself, I am interested in reading how others see the Genestealer Cult.

**Fair enough, it seems you might know more about genetics than me, and I realise there's probably no real scientific sense to the whole Genestealer reproduction business, but I want there to be at least some more in-universe, cod-genetic science waffle that makes satisfying sense about the things we've been discussing. I thank you for your interesting posts in response to mine, but I'm still not following them well enough to be getting what I'm after from them, if you see what I mean.**

You may have to dig by yourself for information such as ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetics

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_fertilization "The male and female pronuclei don't fuse, although their genetic material do. Instead, their membranes dissolve, leaving no barriers between the male and female chromosomes. During this dissolution, a mitotic spindle forms between them. The spindle captures the chromosomes before they disperse in the egg cytoplasm. Upon subsequently undergoing mitosis (which includes pulling of chromatids towards centrioles in anaphase) the cell gathers genetic material from the male and female together. Thus, the first mitosis of the union of sperm and oocyte is the actual fusion of their chromosomes."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_Eve "... Because all mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) generally (but see paternal mtDNA transmission) is passed from mother to offspring without recombination, all mtDNA in every living person is directly descended from hers by definition, differing only by the mutations that over generations have occurred in the germ cell mtDNA since the conception of the original "Mitochondrial Eve"."
**..And I can't understand that sort of thing well enough to apply it to thrashing out a more detailed analysis/understanding of hybrid genetics and morphology, Thanks again for your time though bud :D

Azazyll
24-03-2016, 15:57
Really puzzled by the people so bent on rejecting the broodlord/patriarch connection. It's not that hard to come up with a dozen or more ways to fit them together in universe without contradicting any previous lore at all. That GW have not spelled out the connection in excruciating detail is by no means them dropping the ball. I doubt they ever imagined people would be upset by it.

The_Devourist
24-03-2016, 20:47
Humanoid is right.
If its too complicated to follow though allow me too put it in terms of drama: it is less Ridley Scotts "Alien", more John Carpenters "the Thing". ( with a dash of the "Species" series just to be sexy)
Genestealers aren't the raoches who raid the fridge, we're the " luv bugs" 😀

As for the difference between a broodlord and patriarch: a broodlord is the biggest and the strongest genestealer in any given brood of purestrain genestealers it acts in the role of the leader because it has grown into it, a "favoured son" if you will. A patriarch is a genestealer (not necessarily a broodlord) that has sired a host species and is ultimately responsible for and in psychic control of all contagi, hybrids, magi and puri ( including any broodlords within individual puri broods) in the infected populace, "Father" if you please.
Think of it like this a broodlord is a sargeant the patriarch is chapter master.

Sent from my LG-H345 using Tapatalk

Azazyll
24-03-2016, 22:30
Humanoid is right.
If its too complicated to follow though allow me too put it in terms of drama: it is less Ridley Scotts "Alien", more John Carpenters "the Thing". ( with a dash of the "Species" series just to be sexy)
Genestealers aren't the raoches who raid the fridge, we're the " luv bugs" ��

As for the difference between a broodlord and patriarch: a broodlord is the biggest and the strongest genestealer in any given brood of purestrain genestealers it acts in the role of the leader because it has grown into it, a "favoured son" if you will. A patriarch is a genestealer (not necessarily a broodlord) that has sired a host species and is ultimately responsible for and in psychic control of all contagi, hybrids, magi and puri ( including any broodlords within individual puri broods) in the infected populace, "Father" if you please.
Think of it like this a broodlord is a sargeant the patriarch is chapter master.

Sent from my LG-H345 using Tapatalk

All legitimate interpretations, but there's not a definitive answer as of now. The old lore is clearly outdated, the new lore is spotty. It will hopefully be cleared up when a codex comes out for cults.

As to the sergeant/chapter master analogy, that doesn't really sway me, as they have near identical stats. The only difference are a couple of special rules and a higher mastery level (edit: and now that I think about it those "Patriarch's Claws" weapon stats too). I personally see both as being caused by the development of the brood mini-hivemind of genestealers and their progeny, reaching some kind of critical psychic threshold that causes spontaneous mutation in one of the purestrain genestealers in the broodmind.

Dryaktylus
25-03-2016, 01:29
Maybe these parts from an old interview (2005) with Phil Kelly and Jes Goodwin are of interest:




Q3: We have heard tell of a new addition to the Tyranid list. Can either of you comment on what inspired this new addition?


Jes: Ah, the Broodlord. The nature of the genestealers is that they are the Tyranid species most prone to being mutable by their very nature. We kicked around a lot of possibilities based around the ‘stealers, the Broodlord just seemed to fit the bill for the list.

Phil: We were intending to do the Broodlord as a special character, about whom we intend to remain irritatingly quiet. But he made it in as an HQ choice instead. He is an evolution of the genestealer background, which has always been a favourite of mine.

Q4: Have there been any plans to resurrect the infamous Genestealer Cult in the form of a codex or White Dwarf article with rules for them?


Phil: Ah, that old chestnut. We do get a lot of people asking, several quite highly placed in the company, and myself and Jes are interested in revisiting them. They will never get their own Codex – we just don’t think they are all that appropriate for the battlefield (after all that’s what the main Tyranid list is for) and are more suited to smaller games like Inquisitor and Killteam. I wanted the main 40K list to be 100% alien, and not have any human auxiliary stuff – it would dilute the alien nature of the Tyranid army.

Jes; What he said, but I think that they would make a logical adversary for the Alienhunters.

------------

Q14: Shouldn't the Broodlord rather be called Patriarch ? Is there a difference ? Is there an additional model for the Patriarch in the Tyranids future, say in a campaign?


Phil: The Broodlord is a completely new species. I always think of him as the Olympic athlete of the Tyranid race – tough, fast, and strong. He’s at the peak of physical fitness for purpose, that purpose being to smack seven shades of Grox dung out of any enemy characters that come his way, of course. I always think of Patriarchs as more like a king than a warrior, probably because of that classic model of the Patriarch on his throne with Magus attendant. Always reminded me of Don Corleone, that chap.

Jes: No, Yes, Maybe, but not necessarily in that order ;-]

memitchell747
26-03-2016, 08:29
Really puzzled by the people so bent on rejecting the broodlord/patriarch connection. It's not that hard to come up with a dozen or more ways to fit them together in universe without contradicting any previous lore at all. That GW have not spelled out the connection in excruciating detail is by no means them dropping the ball. I doubt they ever imagined people would be upset by it.
So, you don't care, and you think others should be like you, and not care, too. Got it!

Humanoid
26-03-2016, 14:02
**..And I can't understand that sort of thing well enough to apply it to thrashing out a more detailed analysis/understanding of hybrid genetics and morphology, Thanks again for your time though bud :D
I am far, far from being a geneticist, and just want enough science to make the science-fiction plausible.

Up until the arrival of scientific man, mutation has been the means for life on earth to evolve. However, scientific man began genetic engineering.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetically_modified_organism
- "A genetically modified organism (GMO) is any organism whose genetic material has been altered using genetic engineering techniques (i.e. genetically engineered organism)."
- "A more specifically defined type of GMO is a "Transgenic Organism". This is an organism whose genetic makeup has been altered by the addition of genetic material from another, unrelated organism. This should not be confused with the more general way in which "GMO" is used to classify genetically altered organisms, as typically GMOs are organisms whose genetic makeup has been altered without the addition of genetic material from an unrelated organism."
- "The first genetically modified mouse was in 1973 and the first plant was produced in 1983."

Oh, I like that term of "Transgenic Organism". The "organic molecule" from a genestealer infection is a "Transgenic Molecule", or let's give it the term of a Genestealer Transgenic Molecule (GTM). So, a GTM performs mutations on the chromosomes of sperm and ovum during the chromosome fusion producing a Genestealer Transgenic Organism (GTO).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutation "Changes in chromosome number may involve even larger mutations, where segments of the DNA within chromosomes break and then rearrange. For example, in the Homininae, two chromosomes fused to produce human chromosome 2; this fusion did not occur in the lineage of the other apes, and they retain these separate chromosomes. In evolution, the most important role of such chromosomal rearrangements may be to accelerate the divergence of a population into new species by making populations less likely to interbreed, thereby preserving genetic differences between these populations."

Besides "small-scale mutations" such as gene insertion and deletion, there are "large-scale mutations" such as the above. All I know is if one believes in the science, then evolution happens, and the scientific details are irrelevant to me in developing the science-fiction for a Genestealer Cult that is plausible. Besides being plausible, the science-fiction has to be entertaining. Being entertaining means different things at different times. In the case of the Genestealer Cult, I would like a deep and rich social science-fiction for the Genestealer Cult to be entertaining.

One possibility is that the presence of the Genestealer Transgenic Molecule (GTM) during fusion always produces a purestrain genestealer as the Genestealer Transgenic Organism (GTO). Certainly plausible, but not entertaining for me if I would like a deep and rich social science-fiction for miniatures play through the decades. This possibility is more appropriate to a movie as the form of the entertainment for me.

One possibility is that the presence of the Genestealer Transgenic Molecule (GTM) during fusion requires intermediate generations to finally produce a purestrain genestealer as the Genestealer Transgenic Organism (GTO), and the GTOs of the intermediate generations are hybrid genestealers.

The mutation sequence from the Genestealer Transgenic Molecule (GTM) through the hybrid genestealer generations is not entirely random, but weighted with minor mutations before major mutations. And, the rate of increase of genestealer characteristics in hybrid genestealers occurs with each successive generation.

This increasing rate of genestealer characteristics in hybrid genestealers by generation creates a situation where the Genestealer Cult has to manage itself. One priority is to produce a purestrain genestealer as the Patriach such that the Genestealer Cult can find out what is the timeframe to invasion by the Tyranid hive fleet. 50 years? 100 years? 200 years? 500 years? The Genestealer Cult wants to know when is the appropriate time to have a population explosion of purestrain genestealers, and breed accordingly. Sure purestrain genestealers can hide in tunnels and put themselves in stasis, but the late-generation genestealer hybrids which produce the purestrain genestealers have a lifespan and cannot put themselves in stasis just like all other generations of genestealer hybrids, plus need food and water to live.

The Genestealer Cult expands by creating covens. The first female Genestealer Transgenic Organism (GTO) of a lineage is called a "Coven Eve". A Coven Eve is the starting point of a Genestealer Coven. Most often, a Coven Eve seeks a remote rural farm to start a Genestealer Coven. A Coven Eve has a large number of offspring just like any other farm wife. In all likelihood, the offspring are not all from the farm husband, but from many different males, probably from breeding trips into different cities. (Las Vegas? What happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas.) Some of the offspring leave the farm to pursue careers in academia, industry and government just like any other farm. However, unlike any other farm, the farm undergoes an almost undetectable transformation as tunnels and underground living spaces are dug, and the farm produce no longer goes to market but is diverted to feeding the underground population. The illusion of a normal farm includes falsehoods of trucks full of produce and heading to market.

A Magus is a mid-generation to late-generation hybrid genestealer, and the military commander for a Genestealer Coven. Using psychic connectivity, the Magus communicates with the Patriarch and the other Magi to receive, implement, and coordinate the military objectives and espionage, including the purchase and theft of military hardware and secrets.

A purestrain genestealer is the end state of genestealer transgenic mutation. Purestrain genestealers do not procreate, because their biological purpose is to infect other organisms with the Genestealer Transgenic Molecule (GTM). Thus, in effect, a purestrain genestealer is a generational dead end, except for the ability to infect.

When the farm coven is ready, the hybrid genestealers who left the farm as offspring to pursue careers in academia, industry and government return with friends to meet the folks and see the farm for a weekend. The friends have memories of picturesque landscapes and fresh-baked meals with natural wholesome foods. The events for those memories happened, but the friends do not have memories of their time underground where they revealed information under psychic interrogation, and provided sperm or eggs for freezing and future use. A farm coven has to be sure that no mistakes are made to leave evidence of their secret actions. If discovered, then the contingency plan of last resort is to flood everything in the tunnels and underground living spaces with molten rock, and leave only a root cellar under the farmhouse.

With the information from the psychic interrogation circulated psychically to the other covens, the Genestealer Cult has the means to achieve great financial wealth, and to pursue their ultimate objective. Buildings are purchased or constructed to become starting points for tunnel operations. Tunnels are dug to come up underneath the command and communication buildings of the planetary defense force.

One infiltration tactic uses purestrain genestealers for a tunnel underneath a command and communication building. A burn charge is set against the floor inside the tunnel. Purestrain genestealers are trucked from the coven farm to the coven building where they move through the tunnels to go into stasis underneath the command and communication building. The tunnels behind the purestrain genestealers are sealed with molten rock. Years later when necessary, a psychic signal is sent to the purestrain genestealers. The purestrain genestealers awaken, activate the burn charge, and enter the command and communication building to infect and/or attack.

For the Genestealer Cult to be entertaining for miniatures play through the decades, I needed the Genestealer Cult to have strengths and weaknesses. Also, I needed themes that provided small-scale battles rather than the apocalyptic Tyranid fleet invasion.

For example, an Imperial psyker performs a psychic examination of a senior military officer undergoing a security review. The psychic examination has a troubling inconsistency. As the psychic clues are pieced together, the existence of an unathorized psychic probe at an unathorized facility is discovered, but the full details are not know, just that an unathorized interrogation took place at a specific farm location. The planetary defense force sends in a quick-strike team in a dawn raid, and surprises the genestealer coven. A small-scale battle erupts. The remainder of the quick-strike team has to pull back and form a perimeter around the coven farm. The quick-strike team requests the planetary defense force to send in the armor. The genestealer cult takes the lull in the fighting to retrieve their dead and bring them into the underground living spaces. Before the armor can arrive, the genestealer coven has withdrawn to the underground living spaces, and flooded them with molten rock. All evidence of the genestealer cult at the coven farm has been buried in molten rock. The investigators can dig for decades and find no clues to other genestealer covens, and may not find any evidence that the Genestealer Cult is on the planet.

As to the Broodlord, one has to remember that the Genestealer Cult relies on infiltration. One component of the infiltration is to blend in with the host organism. Another component is to use the tools of the host organism. So, I do not see a Broodlord as a natural extraction from humanity because it is a massive creature comparatively to a human. For example, an early-generation to mid-generation hybrid genestealer should be able to shoot a pistol or drive a vehicle. And, a purestrain genestealer should be able to use the human maintenance crawl spaces in a building, whereas I believe that a Broodlord could not. However, I do see the Genestealer Cult using drug therapy and/or bioengineering their hybrid genestealer DNA to produce a Broodlord if necessary. (Of course, the farm livestock is available for infection, but that may require a zoo to manange their generations.) Thus, for me, the Broodlord would not be a regular element of a human-host genestealer army, but an exception. Therefore, I do not see the Broodlord as a sergeant of squad, but an organic tank of a platoon. But that's my imagination.

Azazyll
26-03-2016, 14:30
So, you don't care, and you think others should be like you, and not care, too. Got it!

...yes? I feel like you're trying to shame me, but you mostly just come across as not understanding how debate works. Am I not supposed to express my opinion and its rationale? Am I not allowed to attempt to persuade others? That's the same thing people expressing the opposite opinion are doing: explaining why they think the two are firmly different. I remain unconvinced by their logic anf expressed a counter argument.

This is not a hard concept. But if you don't like to be challenged, well, Warseer's probably not for you. Good try with the snark though, I guess. That's not nearly as effective or interesting as having an argument, but it was momentarily amusing. I suppose you can claim your internet points at the window by the door.

memitchell747
27-03-2016, 14:37
...yes? I feel like you're trying to shame me, but you mostly just come across as not understanding how debate works. Am I not supposed to express my opinion and its rationale? Am I not allowed to attempt to persuade others? That's the same thing people expressing the opposite opinion are doing: explaining why they think the two are firmly different. I remain unconvinced by their logic anf expressed a counter argument.

This is not a hard concept. But if you don't like to be challenged, well, Warseer's probably not for you. Good try with the snark though, I guess. That's not nearly as effective or interesting as having an argument, but it was momentarily amusing. I suppose you can claim your internet points at the window by the door.

You followed a post telling people their opinions were trivial with one telling me I don't belong here. Is this your A-Game? You feel like your contributions here are making a difference?

I joined Warseer three years before you did. In those ten years, never once told someone, "Warseer's probably not for you." Reel it in a bit.

agurus1
29-03-2016, 22:07
@memitchell747 your post was needlessly antagonist towards Azazyll. His post simply posited confusion, and did move the conversation along for several posts before yours. Joining a forum before someone else doesn't make your words hold anymore or less sway. I'd say someone else needs to "reel it in".

Back in topic, I think that the allusion to the mafia and Don Corleon made in the interview with the GW developers posted earlier has always rang true for me. Patriarch is the head of the family and the broodlord is just the most violent and powerful of the patriarchs purestrain sons.

Gdolkin
29-03-2016, 22:32
@memitchell747 your post was needlessly antagonist towards Azazyll. His post simply posited confusion, and did move the conversation along for several posts before yours. Joining a forum before someone else doesn't make your words hold anymore or less sway. I'd say someone else needs to "reel it in".
I agree. I was trying to find the right words and multi quotes from this thread to suggest that memitchell was the more guilty party of initiating unnecessarily confrontational language, off-topic personal remarks and SHOUTING IN WRITING..
Good work Humanoid! I agree, I just want enough science, pseudo-science if need be, to make the sci-fantasy plausible. Thank you for your interesting, imaginative interpretations of the background.

Azazyll
30-03-2016, 02:48
I'm now glad I bit my tongue and haven't posted my thoughts for a few days! Always the better policy for me, as I have a tendency to get snarky off the cuff. I do apologize if my initial remark came across as belittling, which it was not meant to. I have been genuinely puzzled, even more so now to see the creators feel there was such a strong difference. Some very interesting approaches here. Hopefully the GW team will be half as creative!

I am, however, most excited to imagine what else we might get. The addition of abominations is very welcome and very in keeping with the existing feel of the cults. I also like that they gave the primus a bonesword - implies a deeper connection with the Hive Mind on some level than previously established.

I have always wanted to use a cult that had access to a few Tyranid monsters, leftovers perhaps or somehow otherwise acquired from other hive fleets. Of course my ideal would be to someday see the Zoats of Colossus return. It's nice to shake up the Tyranids a bit. More of the same monsters has been getting a bit dull and straining the creativity of the design team in the past few codices.

agurus1
30-03-2016, 02:53
It would be a natural extension to get lictors and the cult together

memitchell747
31-03-2016, 15:56
@memitchell747 your post was needlessly antagonist towards Azazyll. His post simply posited confusion, and did move the conversation along for several posts before yours. Joining a forum before someone else doesn't make your words hold anymore or less sway. I'd say someone else needs to "reel it in".

Back in topic, I think that the allusion to the mafia and Don Corleon made in the interview with the GW developers posted earlier has always rang true for me. Patriarch is the head of the family and the broodlord is just the most violent and powerful of the patriarchs purestrain sons.

I'm not familiar with "Azazyll." That's my fault. I assume with a long history here, and an enviable post count, he's a big boy (and he proves he is). And, that's all I was saying when I brought up our mutual longevity. Doesn't mean my our opinions carry more weight, just more responsibility to maintain decorum. IMHO.

I'm in similar ill repute on another thread here that goes on for pages defending the wearisome negativity of Warseer. Which accounts for my drifting in and out of this forum over the years. I can't see the efficacy of arguing against the hobby this forum is all about. Much less, pooping on other's enthusiasm (again, referring to a general malaise here, NOT Azazyll). But, it's no fun being a Scold. And, Azazyll sets a positive example, too.

Speaking of longevity, if you fondly remember the origins of the Genestealer Cult. If GSC was your FIRST 40K RT army (that's a quarter-century ago). Then, the overwrought, overweight "Patriarch" holds a special place in your personal gaming lore. Of the hundreds of miniatures I've owned and painted over the years, that particular venerated model has survived myriad trades and sales. You tell me the "Broodlord" (a more modern, characterless construct) takes his place? Yeah right! That's like replacing Don Corleone with "Italian Guy" (relax, it's cool, my sacred Momma was Italian).

We are not talking genetics or bio constructs. We are talking power and position. Heritage, not lineage. Is that important, or trivial? I dunno. Is keeping a poorly painted, ridiculous old miniature for decades after its last useful gaming purpose trivial? DO NOT answer that.

And, Azazyll, I hope it's all good, Man!

Azazyll
31-03-2016, 17:36
And, Azazyll, I hope it's all good, Man!

It is indeed - it's hard to communicate what we mean with just text, and we can all come across as a bit aggressive in the anonymity of the internet from time to time. I'm guilty of it myself, and I seem to keep returning to aggression despite "learning my lesson" over and over again, like a sit-com dad.

From an aesthetic perspective I definitely get the difference between the bloated, conniving Patriarch and the sleek, animalistic broodlord. I tend to approach the former as an evolution of the latter (despite having been thought up first) rather than them being to entirely separate and divergent strains. But putting it in the perspective of the fan's aesthetic impression makes this much more comprehensible for me, which I appreciate.

Humanoid
07-04-2016, 01:37
Good work Humanoid! I agree, I just want enough science, pseudo-science if need be, to make the sci-fantasy plausible. Thank you for your interesting, imaginative interpretations of the background.
Your welcome. Thankyou for the appreciation.

Here is some more of my thinking ...

I start with a purestrain genestealer on a planet, either by arrival or by birth. A purestrain genestealer has brood telepathy, and wants to connect with other purestrain genestealers. Brood telepathy is a special form of psychic communication. If the purestrain genestealer does not receive a transmission from another purestrain genestealer using brood telepathy, then the purestrain genestealer starts transmitting, and continues to transmit a stronger and stronger signal of brood telepathy. Eventually, with no other purestrain genestealers on the planet, the transmission strength of the signal becomes so strong that the purestrain genestealer contacts the Tyranid hive fleet. I have no idea how long this process of increasing the psychic signal would take, but may require a long time to ensure that an enemy psyker only perceives an increase in psychic noise and does not recognize a psychic signal. Thus, the purestrain genestealer becomes the Patriarch by definition of being the one purestrain genestealer on a planet in contact with the Tyranid hive fleet.

The Tyranid hive fleet does not want a purestrain genestealer to transmit a psychic signal to the Tyranid hive fleet when not on a planet such as hiding aboard a travelling spacecraft. Otherwise, the Tyranid hive fleet would be overwhelmed with many, many meaningless psychic signals.

The transmission of a stronger and stronger psychic signal by a purestrain genestealer offers the means to create a communication hierarchy. The Patriarch is the strongest, and in communication with the Tyranid hive fleet, and can communicate with all purestrain genestealers on a planet. The next level down in the psychic communication of the purestrain genestealers is a coven prime. And, the next level down from a coven prime is a brood prime. One can create their own terminology, but terms like Patriarch, coven prime, and brood prime are just identifiers for the different nodes of psychic communication for purestrain genestealers. If the Patriarch dies, then a coven prime will become the Patriarch in time. Likewise, a brood prime will become a coven prime in time if a coven prime dies.

A Magus is a hybrid genestealer, and has psychic communication with the Patriarch and other Magi. Thus, the range of the psychic signal from a Magus only needs to extend around the planet, or to reach the Patriarch and/or the neighboring Magi.

In all likelihood, there are different "bands" or "frequencies" of psychic signals to separate the psychic communication.


It would be a natural extension to get lictors and the cult together
My view is that the Tyranid hive fleet is the monster factory rather than the Genestealer Cult. However, as I have said, I do see the Genestealer Cult using drug therapy and/or bio-engineering their hybrid genestealer DNA to produce a Broodlord if necessary. Why not a Lictor too, or some form of a Lictor?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuttlefish "Cuttlefish are sometimes referred to as the "chameleons of the sea" because of their remarkable ability to rapidly alter their skin colour at will. Cuttlefish change colour and pattern (including the polarization of the reflected light waves), and the shape of the skin to communicate to other cuttlefish, to camouflage themselves, and as a deimatic display to warn off potential predators."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octopus "The octopus's camouflage is aided by certain specialized skin cells which can change the apparent color, opacity, and reflectivity of the epidermis. Chromatophores contain yellow, orange, red, brown, or black pigments; most species have three of these colors, while some have two or four. Other color-changing cells are reflective iridophores, and leucophores (white). This color-changing ability can also be used to communicate with or warn other octopuses. The highly venomous blue-ringed octopus becomes bright yellow with blue rings when it is provoked. Octopuses can use muscles in the skin to change the texture of their mantle to achieve a greater camouflage. In some species, the mantle can take on the spiky appearance of seaweed, or the scraggly, bumpy texture of a rock, among other disguises. However, in some species, skin anatomy is limited to relatively patternless shades of one color, and limited skin texture. It is thought that octopuses that are day-active and/or live in complex habitats such as coral reefs have evolved more complex skin than their nocturnal and/or sand-dwelling relatives."

I have no problem with the Genestealer Cult bio-engineering a "Lictorpus" using octopus or cuttlefish DNA with their hybrid genestealer DNA. Any terrestrial DNA is there for the using. However, just as I do not see a Broodlord as a bigger, badder, purestrain genestealer, I do not see a Lictorpus as a purestrain genestealer with superduper chameleon powers.

For me ... A purestrain genestealer is a purestrain genestealer, and nothing else is a purestrain genestealer. Think of it this way, a purestrain genestealer cannot have corruption of its DNA, otherwise the purestrain genestealer itself could be corrupted to be used as a bio-weapon against the Tyranids. (Creating a corrupted hybrid genestealer to counter-infiltrate the Genestealer Cult is a different matter.) The Patriarch is still a purestrain genestealer, but for modelling purposes to identify the Patriarch and to show the side effects of constantly being the planetary network hub for psychic communication, a Patriarch has a different model than a purestrain genestealer, but still close to the same size and shape of a purestrain genestealer. Some may put the Patriarch on the frontline in battle, whereas I put my Patriarch far away from the fight as possible to ensure that the psychic communication continues.

This bio-engineering of hybrid genestealer DNA with terrestrial DNA means that the consistency of purestrain genestealers and Patriarchs can be maintained while providing an outlet to add new models to the Genestealer Cult, such as the Aberrants, Broodlord, and Lictorpus. However, my concern about GW adding new models to the Genestealer Cult is that GW cannot stop themselves from employing power creep and model obsolescence to sell more models.

I see the foundation of the Genestealer Cult as Brood Brothers/Sisters (those infected with the Genestealer Transgenic Molecule), hybrid genestealers (including the Magi), and purestrain genestealers (including the Patriarch) which use the weaponry (guns and tanks, for example) of the high-order host organism. The bio-engineered hybrid genestealers should add a subtle organic variety to that foundation, and not dominate that foundation nor be that foundation.

That's my thinking.