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daftpunkevo
15-09-2015, 09:50
http://i.imgur.com/BUnRoG6.png

That single store had (and have) more than 80+ regular WHFB player, i edited this posts many times because it looked like i did advertising for them, so i will just say this : they host tournament for nearly every popular wargames, CCG (even heartstone) and have roleplay night, this is arguably the most visited wargaming store in Paris, and it still didn't had it's initial stock of AoS sold out to this day (despite having a quarter of their initial starter box stock sold on the D-Day, bought by people that were "happy" with the change).

If it doesn't sell there it won't sell somewhere else in France, given the huge amount of new people and wargaming curious they receive all the time.

Lordmonkey
15-09-2015, 12:56
Did they maybe over-stock?

jtrowell
15-09-2015, 13:18
South of France here, and it's not better, 8th edition starter sold much better here when it was released than the AoS one, one indy had even stopped stocking new GW products.

Voss
15-09-2015, 13:32
Heh. The local games store near me went for a 20% discount on day 1 of release. It hasn't helped.

Bingo the Fun Monkey
15-09-2015, 14:28
Yea, it's not the price point that's doing that...

skorczeny
15-09-2015, 15:49
Same here, as I posted in the other thread.

Local game store marked AoS down from $125 to $112 to move the product, which has been a no go.

I've seen a mediocre amount of 40k there, but no fantasy, and no AoS.

E-Dog
15-09-2015, 15:57
Saw the same thing in California recently. 20% off, and they had five starter boxes. I was on vacation and asked the guy working there if anyone plays Warhammer there, he said yes, but that they haven't been around in awhile....

Asmodios
15-09-2015, 16:13
Here in Dallas Texas my local store has a 50% discount already. The AOS starter sets have literally been placed in a large stack that hasn't changed in size in weeks. Also i haven't seen a single game of AOS played sense the first week it came out.

Hoffa
15-09-2015, 16:32
Well large store that also does mail order. Did not check sales on release day but day after release they had 76 boxes in stock. As of this minute stock is down to 50. Now I do not claim to know the fine details on how to run a store but I know that the one thing you do not want is stock sitting on the shelf. This tells me that even if some boxes got sold and some people started playing the starter box factions, sales has not been as expected.

frapermax
15-09-2015, 19:11
Well large store that also does mail order. Did not check sales on release day but day after release they had 76 boxes in stock. As of this minute stock is down to 50. Now I do not claim to know the fine details on how to run a store but I know that the one thing you do not want is stock sitting on the shelf. This tells me that even if some boxes got sold and some people started playing the starter box factions, sales has not been as expected.

LGS here in Brussels just stopped selling all GW products. on't know about the GW store because I don't go there anymore...

someone2040
16-09-2015, 04:57
The problem isn't the price. If the community overall has a negative feeling about Age of Sigmar, selling it at a reduced price isn't going to invite people to invest in it. Especially if nobody at the store is willing to push the game either.
Also unclear whether 20% discount is in addition to a regular independent retailer discounted price or against the GW standard price. If it's against GW standard price, well, plenty of places that do that.

It's one of the problems that Independent stores have, is the community pushes the product for them. If lots of people are playing a game, they won't have any problem selling product because people will just buy it. But when it comes to games that aren't selling well, they're not invested in trying to push that product. Unlike a GW store, where ultimately the job of the staffer is to push 40k and Age of Sigmar onto people.

The_Real_Chris
16-09-2015, 11:05
As much as people moan about the price, GW is kinda right. It isn't the biggest reason not to get invloved. I bought their massively overpriced Epic models when they were direct only because I loved the game. If the games were good I would still buy the stuff. But they are blown away by the opposition.

Tokamak
16-09-2015, 13:04
Did they maybe over-stock?

That's a different way of framing it.

Whirlwind
16-09-2015, 13:13
Did they maybe over-stock?

I thought I read the retailers could send back the unsold stock after a time for 'store credit'. Given that Tau and HH are due shortly I'm surprised they don't do this and use it to stock up on Tau/HH which are likely to sell much better than AoS.

English 2000
16-09-2015, 14:53
I'm not surprised by this at all. The Quest for Ghal Maraz limited edition still hasn't sold out (despite only having made 1000 copies).

I'd be more surprised if I heard that Age of Sigmar was doing well somewhere than I am about hearing it's a flop.

Claymore
16-09-2015, 15:31
My local store put there Age of sigmar stock on fire sale a few weeks ago, I've also noticed lots of places are selling the starter set for around $70 as well which is what nearly half the RRP.

English 2000
16-09-2015, 15:37
Where are you seeing it that cheap? At that price it's almost worth splitting 2 sets with someone so that I can get the Chaos stuff.....unfortunately I doubt I'll be able to find anyone willing to take the Sigmarines....

Herzlos
16-09-2015, 15:42
You don't know any Blood Angel players? I always thought it'd be easier to shift the sigmarines than the chaos.

English 2000
16-09-2015, 15:45
I stopped playing 40k after 3rd edition ended. I'm sure I could find some Blood Angel players if I started hanging out at the store on 40k night..... the problem is that most of the 40k players around here have put all GW purchases on hold. They're nervous about buying things in case 40k gets the Sigmar treatment down the road.

MeatGrinder
16-09-2015, 16:34
Theres no reason to buy the starter box unless you want the armies, thats why it doesnt sell well. Theres no mini rulebook in the box worth buying it for. People dont understand how having the rules available for free changes how things sell. You cant expect these boxes to sell as well as previous starter sets.

HelloKitty
16-09-2015, 16:36
Theres no reason to buy the starter box unless you want the armies, thats why it doesnt sell well. Theres no mini rulebook in the box worth buying it for. People dont understand how having the rules available for free changes how things sell. You cant expect these boxes to sell as well as previous starter sets.

Thats what I have been trying to say for a while. People bought the box set often for the rulebook. You don't need the rulebook now since the rules are free. free rules mean no real incentive to buy unless you want the models out of the box.

Spiney Norman
16-09-2015, 16:38
Did they maybe over-stock?

So I'm trying not to be snide here, but what would you say actually constitutes 'over-stocking' when talking about AoS starter sets; 2, 3, maybe 5?

Katastrophe
16-09-2015, 17:08
Thats what I have been trying to say for a while. People bought the box set often for the rulebook. You don't need the rulebook now since the rules are free. free rules mean no real incentive to buy unless you want the models out of the box.

But GW is a models company so that's irrelevant. They have conceded that rules are tertiary to model sales and plastic scenery kits. Thus the only customers they care about are those that purchase the models.

Models sales are their only relevant metric. The boxed set is the best models per dollar they have to date so it should sell like hot cakes

skorczeny
16-09-2015, 17:30
Thats what I have been trying to say for a while. People bought the box set often for the rulebook. You don't need the rulebook now since the rules are free. free rules mean no real incentive to buy unless you want the models out of the box.

Do you think GW was aware of this when they switched to downloadable rules? Did they push indys to put fewer sets on the shelves because 'without rules, fewer people would buy them'. Did they price the set to make it more attractive? I mean, this is getting awfully close to suggesting GW intended to sell fewer units of the set, which could be true.

Simultaneously, GW drove the competitive players (who were doing GW hobby all wrong) into other game systems. But somewhere in all of this, AoS is supposed to do more business than WFB. Best of luck, GW.

Voss
16-09-2015, 17:37
Well, no. Sure, if people are buying the starter set at all, it is for the models. But the 'is a models company' line is still nonsense. Otherwise they wouldn't have bothered with the growing pile of books: WH AOS Realmgate Wars: Ghal Maraz, The Realmgate Wars: Quest for Ghal Maraz (apparently those are different products, I guess) Battletome: Stormcast Eternals, Battletome: Chaos Dreadhold (!),Warhammer Age of Sigmar Book, various limited editions of several of those books, a couple fiction books, and so on and so forth.



Theres no reason to buy the starter box unless you want the armies, thats why it doesnt sell well. Theres no mini rulebook in the box worth buying it for. People dont understand how having the rules available for free changes how things sell. You cant expect these boxes to sell as well as previous starter sets.

That is true initially. But the 'for the rulebook' sales die off quickly in favor of 'build an army cheaply' sales, which we saw again and again with other boxed sets, up to the day they were pulled from shelves. This time around, it is pretty apparent that no one cares about that. Building an army, or even engaging with AoS in any way isn't something people want to do.

Kyriakin
16-09-2015, 17:38
Do you think GW was aware of this when they switched to downloadable rules? Did they push indys to put fewer sets on the shelves because 'without rules, fewer people would buy them'. Did they price the set to make it more attractive? I mean, this is getting awfully close to suggesting GW intended to sell fewer units of the set, which could be true.

Simultaneously, GW drove the competitive players (who were doing GW hobby all wrong) into other game systems. But somewhere in all of this, AoS is supposed to do more business than WFB. Best of luck, GW.
They drove out competitive players with the rules, fluff players with the reboot, "collectors" by only releasing two mono-aesthetic armies (before, we assume, now going back to 40K) and casuals/newbies with the high non-starter box prices.

AoS is a compromise that fails to satisfy any one single group.

GW can swallow the loss of Fantasy in general. However, the much-mentioned 40K "wait and see" effect is the most unforeseen and potentially destructive element in all of this IMHO.

GuyFawkes
16-09-2015, 18:07
AoS is an epic failure. The harder people try and say it's not is contrary to how its product doesn't move. DreadFleet sold more boxes.

As for the competitive gamers they have moved on. People who trash competitive or tournament gamers, are delusional, these gamers buy models. They are also customers. Driving out those players was stupid.

English 2000
16-09-2015, 18:22
They drove out competitive players with the rules, fluff players with the reboot, "collectors" by only releasing two mono-aesthetic armies (before, we assume, now going back to 40K) and casuals/newbies with the high non-starter box prices.

AoS is a compromise that fails to satisfy any one single group.

GW can swallow the loss of Fantasy in general. However, the much-mentioned 40K "wait and see" effect is the most unforeseen and potentially destructive element in all of this IMHO.
Financially, GW can afford the loss of fantasy/AOS. Strategically they cannot.

Once upon a time they were the only show in town and they could afford to exit various spaces.

As it became easier to design and produce models, more and more companies entered the market and successfully filled the gaps left by GW.

When GW exits the fantasy market entirely, they will be left with just one product. The competition will grow by soaking up the money not being spent on fantasy. As their working capital grows, they will start nipping at the heels of 40k.

Aezeal
16-09-2015, 18:28
I'll start buying when they relaese Aelfs. (if they look good ofc.. but I kinda trust GW to get that right, I like most of GW's stuff (except Tau but incl. stormcast) and their style)

Tokamak
16-09-2015, 18:47
People who trash competitive or tournament gamers, are delusional, these gamers buy models. They are also customers. Driving out those players was stupid.

It's not just their own purchases, it's also their role in the hobby. If your hobby can be played competitively then it means it's one that players are taking seriously, it's a hobby you can get better at, and one with goals to aspire towards.

Competitive players enrich an entire hobby.

RandomThoughts
16-09-2015, 19:35
It's not just their own purchases, it's also their role in the hobby. If your hobby can be played competitively then it means it's one that players are taking seriously, it's a hobby you can get better at, and one with goals to aspire towards.

Competitive players enrich an entire hobby.

That depends on your perspective, I think. HelloKitty keeps telling us that the one thing that makes AOS so enjoyable for him is that the competitive players all left for other games, leaving the casuals to set the local AOS gaming culture.

Vazalaar
16-09-2015, 19:58
Thats what I have been trying to say for a while. People bought the box set often for the rulebook. You don't need the rulebook now since the rules are free. free rules mean no real incentive to buy unless you want the models out of the box.

GW's conclusion will be: "Free rules is bad for business":rolleyes:

GW thought that AoS would be an unstoppable succes, instead it resulted in a big failure.

AoS isn't selling at all.

It's a shame that the failure of AoS will not be really visible in the next financial report as the plastic Horus Heresy box set will outsell AoS in a couple of days.

Bah, I am still very disappointed that they killed Warhammer!

HelloKitty
16-09-2015, 19:59
Competitive players enrich an entire hobby.

They do if competitive play is your goal. If competitive play is not your goal, you will find that even your casual games have competitive play leaking into them. In that regard, if you are after unbalanced narrative/historical play, competitive players can be the bane of your existence because that is antithesis of what they are after, and in local game stores competitive players often rule the roost so to speak. I've seen some pretty hurt feelings and very vocal opposition to narrative/unbalanced play being condoned within the confines of a store that has a strong competitive scene in it.

We had a youtube video filming that had to be moved to a different location a few years back (i want to say early spring 2012 while 5th was going on for 40k still) because players not part of the game kept interrupting the video making rude and obnoxious comments about how playing the scenario we were playing was a bunch of words I cannot repeat here and that we were teaching new players how to play the game very wrong because they'd be gimped and play wrong in tournaments.

This is not to be confused with casual play, because casual play can still be deemed competitive if the players are going off of tournament rules, lists, strength, etc.

This is why a lot of historical players, narrative players, etc play in their garages and you don't see them in game stores as often (community willing of course, but i've heard thats true in a lot of areas so general stereotype)

Archaon
16-09-2015, 20:12
But GW is a models company so that's irrelevant. They have conceded that rules are tertiary to model sales and plastic scenery kits. Thus the only customers they care about are those that purchase the models.

Models sales are their only relevant metric. The boxed set is the best models per dollar they have to date so it should sell like hot cakes

Except they won't if the game is perceived to be crap and people are disgruntled that old Warhammer is gone for good. No matter how good the miniatures may be very few will buy them to just sit theere in a display case and witth such few collectors and just painters you can't support a game of this scope and volume.

This is something GW is apparently refusing to understand. They treat the reason to actually buy the miniatures as an afterthought now, something bothersome and something that generates little, if any, profit from book sales when in reality it should be their number one priority to crank out a top of the line, engaging, balanced and fun way to play Warhammer.. selling miniatures then for a good games would be automatic.

Lordcypress
16-09-2015, 20:21
At out local store we have the exact same AoS starter box sitting on the shelf since day one of the releases. It's literally taking up space for fantasy merchandise! Mind you in our area is some weird universe for gaming. Fanstasy outsells 40k big time. We've been having Fantasy Tournaments since 2003. This year will be our first 40k tournament ever.

Voss
16-09-2015, 20:23
That depends on your perspective, I think. HelloKitty keeps telling us that the one thing that makes AOS so enjoyable for him is that the competitive players all left for other games, leaving the casuals to set the local AOS gaming culture.

Don't confuse matters of perspective with financial sales, moving product, and successful (or as it happens) failing games, though, which is what this thread is about. Individuals in their own pocket universe can have all the perspectives they like, but very little impact on reality or other people, or the success/failure of product lines.

And of course, you have to swallow the premise that competitive/casual is an absolute dichotomy, and accept it as true, rather than laugh and treat it like like the load of codswallop it actually is.

Tokamak
16-09-2015, 20:48
They do if competitive play is your goal. If competitive play is not your goal, you will find that even your casual games have competitive play leaking into them. In that regard, if you are after unbalanced narrative/historical play, competitive players can be the bane of your existence because that is antithesis of what they are after, and in local game stores competitive players often rule the roost so to speak. I've seen some pretty hurt feelings and very vocal opposition to narrative/unbalanced play being condoned within the confines of a store that has a strong competitive scene in it.

I did expect someone to respond with that. Let's separate two things here

- A formal competitive scene (regardless of how players behave) is a huge asset to the hobby as it gives meaning to all players, casuals/fluff players included. Kids never play a casual game of football on the playground, they play the damn world cup, they're Ronaldo and Beckham. It's the idea that they're somewhere on the same tangent as their idols that counts. The fact that your campaign scenario functions with the same robust structure that tournament players play on gives a sense of integrity to the game. Complete beginners could play an absolute mediocre match of warhammer with the dream of how it would be like under a vigorous tournament.

- Now as for how competitive players behave, that's a flaw of the game, not of the players. A ruleset that is robust enough leaves no doubt and loopholes for them to exploit. A game developer with integrity has balance has the highest priority and doesn't power-creep the codexes just to sell more miniatures on the short term. The solution of making a game completely unappealing uncompetitive (yet with countless ways to exploit it to snatch a win) is a bit like beating yourself up and throwing yourself on the ground before the bully does it.

stroller
16-09-2015, 21:21
Local small town UK perspective: by chance, (don't ask) I've been to 5 game stores today, in two towns.

GW was closed. When last in a couple of weeks ago, the initial order hadn't sold out (I had one of them).
The local branch of a chain toy store had a small GW section: mainly 40K, some paints, some fantasy, some unsold end times, an unsold blood island. I saw no AoS, except for some gold spray paint. Everything at 10% off.
The local FLGS had ordered no AoS. Limited GW range, but more than the chain, also at 10% off. To be fair, owner also lamented the "failure" of a number of other promising games, particularly from Mantic.

Town 2
2 FLGS. Both selling GW at 10% off. One hadn't looked at AoS. The other had a reasonable range. Starter sets had sold at launch, but slow since.

Overall impression, small burst at launch, but this one ain't got no legs...

stroller
16-09-2015, 21:34
On the benefits of competitive play to "the Hobby":

Yes, I'm competitive in that, if I'm playing a game, I like to win it. But that's as far as it goes. A league, for me, would simply be a mechanism to ensure I got more games. Sure, I'd prefer to win, but I don't feel that a tournament enriches MY game experience. If anything, it reduces it, as opponents use "friendly" or pickup games to practice tournament strategies. The result is that we're playing different "games", with less enjoyment. Complete beginners COULD play imagining they were tournament finalists, and they might enjoy that, but I deny that a non competitive game might have any more or less integrity than a competitive one.

As for behaviour, again I disagree. No game is perfect, and GW's are a long way off "good for tournaments". However, how competitive players behave is absolutely down to those players. The game doesn't force anyone into WAAC. That's down to the individual.

Gonefishing
16-09-2015, 22:06
They do if competitive play is your goal. If competitive play is not your goal, you will find that even your casual games have competitive play leaking into them. In that regard, if you are after unbalanced narrative/historical play, competitive players can be the bane of your existence because that is antithesis of what they are after, and in local game stores competitive players often rule the roost so to speak. I've seen some pretty hurt feelings and very vocal opposition to narrative/unbalanced play being condoned within the confines of a store that has a strong competitive scene in it.

We had a youtube video filming that had to be moved to a different location a few years back (i want to say early spring 2012 while 5th was going on for 40k still) because players not part of the game kept interrupting the video making rude and obnoxious comments about how playing the scenario we were playing was a bunch of words I cannot repeat here and that we were teaching new players how to play the game very wrong because they'd be gimped and play wrong in tournaments.

This is not to be confused with casual play, because casual play can still be deemed competitive if the players are going off of tournament rules, lists, strength, etc.

This is why a lot of historical players, narrative players, etc play in their garages and you don't see them in game stores as often (community willing of course, but i've heard thats true in a lot of areas so general stereotype)

All I can say to that video story Kitty is the competitive gamers in your area sound like utter @~#?'s (and other words that could potentially get me banned from Warseer). There never has been a "wrong" way to play GW's games, the only proviso is that you should be playing a like minded opponent. From my own perspective I would describe myself as a competitive gamer, and I enjoy playing tight hard fought games with other competitive gamers. I would not enjoy a match up against a narrative player that was completely unequipped to deal with my list, for me it would be like clubbing a seal and for the narrative player it would also be no fun...IE. No point in the game for either player.

That said - as a competitive player, while I only wanted to game against people with the same viewpoint, I had precisely zero issues with the fluffly/narrative crowd doing their thing. To be honest going back a few years, when the forums biggest arguments were between the competitive and the fluff players (or what would now be termed "narrative" players I guess) this seemed to be a fairly prevalent attitude amongst the competitive players. They wanted competitive games but didn't have any issue with the way others played, while the "fluff" players were actively against the way the competitive players used to play, seeing it as somehow being outside the spirit of the game (that's my recollection of the forums a few years ago).

I think the main reason for that is because most fluff players seemed to see no difference between a competitive gamer, and a WAAC gamer (which is an entirely different subset of the hobby, who I can assure you even us competitive guys did not like playing). I think the ironic thing is that GW's current game systems lend themselves far more to the WAAC attitude than the old games ever did - because the options to abuse the current rules and army selections are endless nowadays. But that's a digression, the main point is that under the old editions of their games, their was no "wrong way" to play the game, and both sides were catered for - the disagreements tended to happen when players with different ideas of the game played, but against a like minded opponent it could be fine. I would say though, that there were probably just as many competitive players gaming in garages and such like (that's certainly where I used to play most of my games), as there were fluff players quietly avoiding the competitive scene in their garages - so I don't believe there is some sort of underground fluffly silent majority quietly playing in the background - that would have been entirely dependant on the local meta.

Spiney Norman
16-09-2015, 22:15
I think one of the other great failings of AoS is the lack of communication about the game's other factions, a number of posters on war seer (and a number of friends in real life) have expressed the view that they want to wait and see what GW does with faction x, y or z in AoS before getting into it.

Understandably they don't want to buy a bunch of silver helms or miners or whatever and discover that when the Duardin/Aelf fluff gets released the models they've spent time and money in are sidelined/discontinued/unimportant/not what they wanted to play after all.

Why GW didn't communicate properly about all the factions or at least more of them than just stormcast/bloodbound with a side order of Sylvaneth and nurgle rotbringers I will never know, it's like they expect everyone to jump on the two factions they've concentrated on so far which imho is bonkers.

It would have been immensely helpful if one of the books they had released so far had contained maybe 4-6 pages of artwork and fluff for each major race in the AoS setting, kind of like an expanded version of the fluff section of the old wfb rule books where there was a taster for each major faction. It just seems that if you don't like the new storm casts or Khorne AoS doesn't really offer you anything yet.

I mean even a bit of flavour for the existing factions and some pics of units painted up on round bases would give people a bit of a feel for the character of the races in their new incarnation, are Duardin still the grumpy traditionalist grudge-holders that dwarfs were in warhammer, are Aelfs still the arrogant, aloof types that high elves have always been (or are they the more wild and unpredictable Asrai). There are just so many unanswered questions about the setting its not really any wonder so many people are reluctant to jump straight in.

big squig
16-09-2015, 22:42
I think one of the other great failings of AoS is the lack of communication about the game's other factions, a number of posters on war seer (and a number of friends in real life) have expressed the view that they want to wait and see what GW does with faction x, y or z in AoS before getting into it.

Understandably they don't want to buy a bunch of silver helms or miners or whatever and discover that when the Duardin/Aelf fluff gets released the models they've spent time and money in are sidelined/discontinued/unimportant/not what they wanted to play after all.

Why GW didn't communicate properly about all the factions or at least more of them than just stormcast/bloodbound with a side order of Sylvaneth and nurgle rotbringers I will never know, it's like they expect everyone to jump on the two factions they've concentrated on so far which imho is bonkers.

It would have been immensely helpful if one of the books they had released so far had contained maybe 4-6 pages of artwork and fluff for each major race in the AoS setting, kind of like an expanded version of the fluff section of the old wfb rule books where there was a taster for each major faction. It just seems that if you don't like the new storm casts or Khorne AoS doesn't really offer you anything yet.

I mean even a bit of flavour for the existing factions and some pics of units painted up on round bases would give people a bit of a feel for the character of the races in their new incarnation, are Duardin still the grumpy traditionalist grudge-holders that dwarfs were in warhammer, are Aelfs still the arrogant, aloof types that high elves have always been (or are they the more wild and unpredictable Asrai). There are just so many unanswered questions about the setting its not really any wonder so many people are reluctant to jump straight in.

Well, toy be fair, the age of sigmar book has multiple section showcasing miniatures and fluff for many factions. It still didn't include any mention of dwarfs, elfs, or empire (who I assume are all dead).

RandomThoughts
16-09-2015, 23:05
I did expect someone to respond with that. Let's separate two things here

- A formal competitive scene (regardless of how players behave) is a huge asset to the hobby as it gives meaning to all players, casuals/fluff players included. Kids never play a casual game of football on the playground, they play the damn world cup, they're Ronaldo and Beckham. It's the idea that they're somewhere on the same tangent as their idols that counts. The fact that your campaign scenario functions with the same robust structure that tournament players play on gives a sense of integrity to the game. Complete beginners could play an absolute mediocre match of warhammer with the dream of how it would be like under a vigorous tournament.

I think you are wrong. Speaking from personal experience, when I first started the game, there was no internet, no organized play in Germany, we had to actually buy english rule books and white dwarves from the store in the big city close by. None of us wanted or needed or cared about tournaments, a world league, whatever. It was a game just like any other game, only more geeky, which you could play against your friends, and which also had fluff to get into.

What we aspired to were not the GT world champions, we aspired to the actual heroes in the fluff. We wanted to lead major armies against each other, defeat the evil (good) armies of darkness (light) our pals had, and that felt epic enough, without any need to get outside our gaming group whatsoever.


I think one of the other great failings of AoS is the lack of communication about the game's other factions, a number of posters on war seer (and a number of friends in real life) have expressed the view that they want to wait and see what GW does with faction x, y or z in AoS before getting into it.

I think GW thinks the market is the same as the market for toys and merchandise, where you put stuff out and it will be bought because it is the new stuff that just came out.

I mean, the last ten years taught them that they don't need quality games to sell models, they probably have no idea that some of their customers actually care about having a setting, a fictional world to indulge in, after all, we have taught them over the last 10 years that anything that resembles a space marine sells, no ifs or buts.

Kahadras
16-09-2015, 23:48
Why GW didn't communicate properly about all the factions or at least more of them than just stormcast/bloodbound with a side order of Sylvaneth and nurgle rotbringers I will never know, it's like they expect everyone to jump on the two factions they've concentrated on so far which imho is bonkers.

I think GW expected everybody to shout 'WOW SPACE MARINES FOR WARHAMMER!!!' and drop 500 on a new Sigmarine army. What GW would have been probably better doing is concentrating on getting out multiple smaller faction sets. The Sylvaneth faction would have been fine with a couple of extra new models (like giant Eagles). They could have done the same with the Duradin and the Aelf forces. Instead we got nothing but Marines armed with different weapon sets. Not really the best start to give a new system IMHO.

HelloKitty
17-09-2015, 00:02
I think GW expected everybody to shout 'WOW SPACE MARINES FOR WARHAMMER!!!' and drop 500 on a new Sigmarine army

I agree with this.

jet_palero
17-09-2015, 00:25
HelloKitty, it seems like your problem is with gamers who are jerks rather than just competitive gamers. When I game I want someone to win, because that's partly what makes it fun for me. But I also want everyone to have a good time (because otherwise they might not want to play next time!). I used to play a lot of chess when I was in high school, and it was common to spot your opponent a piece if you beat him a few times in a row. It kept it fair and interesting. It was also expected to be friendly and upbeat, and even advise new players. But at the same time we were all very competitive.

Competitiveness does not have to mean being a jerk.

Greyshadow
17-09-2015, 07:12
I hope this catastrophe teaches senior management a lesson. As much as I am furious with GW over this debacle, I don't want to see them go under. They have some great talent and with the right leadership could still redeem themselves. They need to start to make an effort to understand their customers needs first and foremost. Even though I don't play 40K, I hope those guys don't get hit by the Age of Sigmar bat because then it would really be over.

Lordmonkey
17-09-2015, 07:16
They need to start to make an effort to understand their customers needs first and foremost.

It has been stated that GW don't do market research because they already know what their customers want.

:confused:

Lol...

Losing Command
17-09-2015, 07:50
GW communicating less and less with its customers isn't helping either. Even GW store managers generally have no idea what is happening, going to happen and most importantly, why. So just imagine how uncertain independet retailers that sell some GW products must be : at any moment GW could decide to change something so drasticly they end up with stock that is never going to sell any longer.
GW just throws a new release at people each week, gives them a stern look and then goes back up the ivory tower to mutter about why no one is buying the great things it releases that people should surely want so badly, because GW decided it should be as such.

Also take a look at the 40k armies that have been and are going to be updated as of late : marines, eldar and tau. Not the oldest codexes, but the ones that probably sell the most models. And 2 out of those 3 almost certainly sold a lot over the last few years, not because there were so many awesome new models released, but because it are the most overpowered armies at the moment.

Bishops finger
17-09-2015, 09:07
It's not just their own purchases, it's also their role in the hobby. If your hobby can be played competitively then it means it's one that players are taking seriously, it's a hobby you can get better at, and one with goals to aspire towards.

Competitive players enrich an entire hobby. Absolutely spot on. From my own experience when i came back to tabletop gaming i didn't even have anyone to play with! I just painted. I am no collector..The ONE thing that kept me going in those days was the thought that one day i could use my army in the larger tourney scene when i was ready.(i found clubs though and i was off and playing)i soon realised GW would keep changing things so fast that i couldn't keep up and finish any project anyway lol!!

Anyway back on topic, hmmm I'm more and more convinced of the conspiracy theory that AOS has been designed to fail. It ticks all the boxes that would alienate existing warhammer customers and worry 40k customers. Gw has (going back to the days of squats/epic/WHFRPG) has been hamstrung by shareholders and needs to start again,braking away from this business model. hmmm gates of antares anyone?

Shandor
17-09-2015, 13:17
HelloKitty, it seems like your problem is with gamers who are jerks rather than just competitive gamers. When I game I want someone to win, because that's partly what makes it fun for me. But I also want everyone to have a good time (because otherwise they might not want to play next time!). I used to play a lot of chess when I was in high school, and it was common to spot your opponent a piece if you beat him a few times in a row. It kept it fair and interesting. It was also expected to be friendly and upbeat, and even advise new players. But at the same time we were all very competitive.

Competitiveness does not have to mean being a jerk.

It really depents on the other Player how i play. If he is new i dont care winning. I want to teach how to play. If i play against an Casual player i make an "light" list or try new things out. If i play against an Tournament player i make an Hard list and try to advance it.

I never had such problems with the influence of other Comunity groups in the games i played.

Btw im really thankful for the Competive players i met when i started the Game. They did explain so much and had so much patience with a new Player. I felt so welcome it was a good start in the Hobby. And was much more fun then a Game against anther Noob where you had to read all rules wile playing and ask other players for help.

Zembezil
17-09-2015, 15:15
Mark my words...
Gamesworkshop rolls its dices one last time because they know what will happen soon.When did you pay 10 or 20 dollars for a music album last time ? It will be like mp3s.The manufacturing will be hit by an identical crisis to the music industry, and this time it will be caused by 3D printing.
The recipes of the old and new 28 mm minis will be all over the internet and we can download them from pirate torrents and create our army cheaper than a one night wh*** price.

jtrowell
17-09-2015, 16:04
GW's conclusion will be: "Free rules is bad for business":rolleyes:

GW thought that AoS would be an unstoppable succes, instead it resulted in a big failure.

AoS isn't selling at all.

It's a shame that the failure of AoS will not be really visible in the next financial report as the plastic Horus Heresy box set will outsell AoS in a couple of days.

Bah, I am still very disappointed that they killed Warhammer!

"Free rules is bad for business" is also how I fear that they will react, or at least the new excuse that they might try to sell to the shareholders.

Meanwhile, Mantic who has also release free rules for Kings of War, and with those rules having been available for free for month before the release thanks to a large public playtest of the game, managed to sold out the book, and this is while they were already expecting a surge of sales thanks to AoS. :rolleyes:

HelloKitty
17-09-2015, 16:14
Couple things though about the Mantic:

The free rules don't have all of the rules. They have the get you by rules. There is an incentive to buy the physical rulebook to get the rest of the equipment, rules, etc.

One of the things also being speculated on the Mantic - a lot of people are not buying Mantic armies, they are using their GW models.

This means Mantic is not making money hand over fist like some people would like to postulate. In fact, some have even said GW is benefiting from mantic because people are still buying GW models to use Mantic rules with.

For a lot of guys - they just buy the mantic rulebook for $25 or whatever it is and thats it. No more spending. They already have models. (this is the same issue that allegedly GW faced, people had their armies and were not spending anymore money because they did not need to)

Of course - new players that jump on mantic will need armies. Where will they go? Will they buy GW models or will they buy the uglier but cheaper mantic models? Or will they hit up the vast, cheap, plastic GW hordes on ebay?

Unfortunately none of this can be proven as GW is the only one beholden to share their financial data.

big squig
17-09-2015, 18:57
I've heard a lot of sentiment from new KoW players that they would much rather buy mantic models over GW ones. Not mostly because they are cheaper, but because they don't want to support a company that treats its customers so badly.

Again, this is just local anecdote.

Propo Fol
17-09-2015, 19:06
I dont know if its fair to say that mantic models are uglier. I mean, they are as a whole -- having never been exposed to them prior to AoS and now checking them out, yeah on average they are definitely of lower quality. But if you look at the quality of their releases over time, they've gotten better, and most of their recently released stuff is perfectly respectable. Also, way freaking cheaper than GW stuff. The orc and undead stuff in particular I could get behind. The point being as they have success and build their brand name/reputation and generate more revenue, I'd expect their stuff to continue to get better.

Likewise, their overhead is so low vs. GW that their definition of "making money hand over fist" is probably between 2 to 3 orders of magnitude lower vs GW. Mantic can be perfectly happy selling out their rulebook and letting people use GW minis, because from their perspective it is just driving acceptance of their product and giving them more operating cash to further develop their product lines. They know they will start selling minis to SOME of those people. And if more people are playing, FLGS will be more likely to start stocking their stuff, which will also increase sales, which will further the chances of new people starting, etc. They're basically moving up the opposite end of the curve that GW is currently crashing down.

Propo Fol
17-09-2015, 19:18
also, with the rules, HK has a good point -- the mantic rules aren't really free. They're just pretty close to it. I'm not very familiar with the intricacies, but my understanding is most of the army lists are available free online, and just a subset of the more specialized units require you buy the book. But all the army lists are in the rulebook (or a single upcoming supplement). And the book is priced reasonably. So basically they give incentive to buy the book without forcing you to. They also don't even bother trying to fight piracy since the rules are all publicly beta tested, beyond simply giving them a reasonable (affordable) price. I actually think it is a very fair methodology for doing free rules.

RandomThoughts
17-09-2015, 19:29
Couple things though about the Mantic:

The free rules don't have all of the rules. They have the get you by rules. There is an incentive to buy the physical rulebook to get the rest of the equipment, rules, etc.

One of the things also being speculated on the Mantic - a lot of people are not buying Mantic armies, they are using their GW models.

This means Mantic is not making money hand over fist like some people would like to postulate. In fact, some have even said GW is benefiting from mantic because people are still buying GW models to use Mantic rules with.

For a lot of guys - they just buy the mantic rulebook for $25 or whatever it is and thats it. No more spending. They already have models. (this is the same issue that allegedly GW faced, people had their armies and were not spending anymore money because they did not need to)

Of course - new players that jump on mantic will need armies. Where will they go? Will they buy GW models or will they buy the uglier but cheaper mantic models? Or will they hit up the vast, cheap, plastic GW hordes on ebay?

Unfortunately none of this can be proven as GW is the only one beholden to share their financial data.

I don't think any of that matters in the long run. The one goal Mantic must have at this point is getting people to play their game in the first place. Model sales will follow down the road, once people start identifying themselves as KoW players.

Lars Porsenna
17-09-2015, 20:07
I don't think any of that matters in the long run. The one goal Mantic must have at this point is getting people to play their game in the first place. Model sales will follow down the road, once people start identifying themselves as KoW players.

I think this is true. If sales pick up in my local community, I've been giving thought of starting an all-Mantic Ogres army, personally...

Damon.

Kahadras
17-09-2015, 20:11
dont know if its fair to say that mantic models are uglier. I mean, they are as a whole -- having never been exposed to them prior to AoS and now checking them out, yeah on average they are definitely of lower quality. But if you look at the quality of their releases over time, they've gotten better, and most of their recently released stuff is perfectly respectable. Also, way freaking cheaper than GW stuff. The orc and undead stuff in particular I could get behind. The point being as they have success and build their brand name/reputation and generate more revenue, I'd expect their stuff to continue to get better.

Agreed. Go back and look at some of GW's old minatures (first gen stuff) and those models weren't great. Over time GW stuff got better and I'd assume the same will happen in Mantic. The sculpters will get better and Mantic will be able to invest in better equipment to improve quality.

HelloKitty
17-09-2015, 20:15
I don't think any of that matters in the long run. The one goal Mantic must have at this point is getting people to play their game in the first place. Model sales will follow down the road, once people start identifying themselves as KoW players.

Thats probably very true. So I hope Mantic improves on the quality of their models because otherwise I will be very sad to see those models become the default.

smaxx
17-09-2015, 20:22
Couple things though about the Mantic:
Exactly :) Kings of War is fine rule set, but the models are not. After reading the book I got sort of interested in the Basilea army, but I'll have to look for somewhere else for the minis :) Otherwise I've got GW models for two lifetimes, so no need to by anything from there for the foreseeable future. Mantic dwarfs are OK, other minis I haven't found anything I like, not that I've looked too closely.

Erloas
17-09-2015, 20:30
It looks like Mantic/KoW is about where GW was 15ish years ago (when I first started). I haven't read their rules yet (but plan to right away) but at least from a model perspective their armies haven't ballooned in unit options like the latest army books from GW did. GW had some good models back then, they also had some pretty atrocious ones; and seeing some of the ones before I started playing, even those were a step up from what some of the earlier models looked like.

From what I've seen at a quick look at KoW models is that some of them are a pretty big departure from what we're used to from GW. Not bad, but just not what we are used to. Some of them look really good, and some are mediocre.
Who knows how things will look with KoW if/when they get to having 5-6 core units, 5-6 specials, and 3-5 rare units along with a dozen character options. That is where GW put on a lot of bloat and seemed to change a lot more of their pricing schemes. GW has some reasonably priced models, some as low as $1.75 a model, some around $2.50, not quite as cheap as the cheapest KoW (I see at $1/model) but in line with some of their models. So I don't think production costs are that much different between their models, I think what kills GW is their pricing based on position in the army book, points cost of the models, and generally how "good" the unit is. Why would it cost $20 per model for one dude on a horse when another dude on a horse is $4.30 a model?
The other part that has killed WHF from a price to enter/play is "what is required to have a reasonable army" and more and more of that is requiring their artificially inflated models. You can't build a competitive army with those reasonably priced models, you have to liberally sprinkle in the $10/model units, those $15/model characters, and those $50-60 monsters. Granted a monster is going to be more expensive just from being bigger, and it would make some sense to balance it a bit because one monster is equal to 20 foot troops, but GW has just crushed a lot of that for many of the armies.

AoS is its own problem, I was just commenting on how I saw the model price breakdown side of things.

The_Real_Chris
17-09-2015, 22:20
Well on mantic models I like the undead and elf plastics (the latter aren't bad sculpts but very different from the GW style). But who sculpted them? :) also developed with renendra and who were those guys...

big squig
17-09-2015, 22:21
I think this is true. If sales pick up in my local community, I've been giving thought of starting an all-Mantic Ogres army, personally...

Damon.

The two new ogre models (berserkers and wizard) look fantastic!
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Voss
17-09-2015, 22:29
I've heard a lot of sentiment from new KoW players that they would much rather buy mantic models over GW ones. Not mostly because they are cheaper, but because they don't want to support a company that treats its customers so badly.

Again, this is just local anecdote.
No, that is likely true. But I suspect for most, it is a combination. Personally, while I'm still not a particular fan the kow rules, and think the elves and dwarves are utter abominations of Modelling, a lot of the mantic models are growing on me. The less busy and less cartoony style compared to GW is has its appeal, with a much better control of scale. There are exceptions, but I certainly like the ogres better than the foppish fat Mongol mockeries that GW produces.

Lars Porsenna
17-09-2015, 22:36
, but I certainly like the ogres better than the foppish fat Mongol mockeries that GW produces.

Each to their own, but I love that GW's Ogres are an army of fat guys...

Damon.

Spiney Norman
17-09-2015, 22:46
The two new ogre models (berserkers and wizard) look fantastic!
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I realise that model aesthetics are largely subjective, but are we really looking at the same models?

Or are you using the word 'fantastic' to mean 'of a fantasy setting'?

I mean aside from the basic look (which I don't really like), the incredibly static pose of the unit is just boring, as is the fact that their poses are all almost identical.

And the fire on the shamans hands is pretty badly sculpted in my option, more like clusters of tentacles than actual flames.

They remind me quite a lot of GWs old metal savage orcs, without the interesting command options

stortotta
18-09-2015, 18:34
The two new ogre models (berserkers and wizard) look fantastic!
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Yep. For the first time, I think Mantic has managed to produce something decent. I'm not saying "fantastic" though, the arn't, but they are decent.

vlad78
18-09-2015, 19:06
Yep. For the first time, I think Mantic has managed to produce something decent. I'm not saying "fantastic" though, the arn't, but they are decent.

Much better than GW fat ogres imho.

Spiney Norman
18-09-2015, 21:46
Much better than GW fat ogres imho.

Is that supposed to be serious? Compare that ogre shaman to the GW fire belly and the two are not even in the same league, ok if you don't like the concept of Gw's chubby ogres, but technically they are years ahead of mantic.

GrandmasterWang
19-09-2015, 04:12
GW ogres poop all over mantics.

A mate of mine got the mantic ogre mega box set and my..... they look very poor imo for the most part.

The 'leadbelcher' and 'irongut' models are abysmal.. so much so that he pretty much binned the whole project.

The only saving grave of the box set was the 'bruiser' who has a mild resemblance to 'AXE' the dota hero.

Gw 15 years ago was way better than Mantic.

Overall Mantic sculpt quality is poor.

There are some gems imo however.

I recently bought their Bastellion (sp? ) lion rider (metal model kit) because I thought the mounted lion looked great. Having now assembled the lion while there were gap issues I am very happy with it. Rider is worthless but the actual mantic lion is beautiful and I highly recommend it.

The new?? Trolls they showed with the Orc box set while no match for GW's have a certain appeal. I'm tempted to get some to use as 'normal' trolls

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk

Dosiere
19-09-2015, 06:21
Compared to some of their stuff those new ogres look pretty darn good. My favorite unit though to date remains an ogre/troll unit I made from primarily reaper minis back in the day. They have some incredible miniatures although usually not suited for large u its. Weighs a ton since everything is metal but I love it, and never really liked the obese thing GW has going on.

Aezeal
19-09-2015, 06:44
I realise that model aesthetics are largely subjective, but are we really looking at the same models?

Or are you using the word 'fantastic' to mean 'of a fantasy setting'?

I mean aside from the basic look (which I don't really like), the incredibly static pose of the unit is just boring, as is the fact that their poses are all almost identical.

And the fire on the shamans hands is pretty badly sculpted in my option, more like clusters of tentacles than actual flames.

They remind me quite a lot of GWs old metal savage orcs, without the interesting command options

I'd say I just see some huge Orcs in those bererkers (compared to GW orcs, I don't know KoW orcs though so maybe there is a difference) and I like the more spcific look of the GW ogres. The mage is just plain ugly.

Aezeal
19-09-2015, 06:46
GW ogres poop all over mantics.

A mate of mine got the mantic ogre mega box set and my..... they look very poor imo for the most part.

The 'leadbelcher' and 'irongut' models are abysmal.. so much so that he pretty much binned the whole project.

The only saving grave of the box set was the 'bruiser' who has a mild resemblance to 'AXE' the dota hero.

Gw 15 years ago was way better than Mantic.

Overall Mantic sculpt quality is poor.

There are some gems imo however.

I recently bought their Bastellion (sp? ) lion rider (metal model kit) because I thought the mounted lion looked great. Having now assembled the lion while there were gap issues I am very happy with it. Rider is worthless but the actual mantic lion is beautiful and I highly recommend it.

The new?? Trolls they showed with the Orc box set while no match for GW's have a certain appeal. I'm tempted to get some to use as 'normal' trolls

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk

I'd personally stick with the models I like best (and apperantly you like GW's ones best).. why would you go for mantic?

Aezeal
19-09-2015, 06:48
I think that especially in the big monster department GW really has the best models.

I still like my 15 year old forest dragons very much, and the new treeman is one of the best monsters I know.

GrandmasterWang
19-09-2015, 07:59
I'd personally stick with the models I like best (and apperantly you like GW's ones best).. why would you go for mantic?

I get my figurines on a case by case basis and always get what I like best. GW usually produces the best which is why I get a lot of GW stuff but I have no particular brand loyalty so buy from all manufacturers.

Mantic for the most part is poor but their metal lion is a damn good sculpt imo which is why I bought it. Unlike most Mantic sculpts it has no superior GW alternative.

Reaper bones is an annoying material but I like some of their fantasy sculpts a lot, like their fire/water elementals and kraken for example.

Hordes by Privateer Press also has some really cool stuff like the Swamp Troll for example.

The greatness of WHFB is that it is so large and broad I can pretty much bring in any 28mm fantasy figurine into 8th/Chillhammer with little problems... Storm of Magic and Monstrous Arcanum have been brilliant in this regard by providing myself and others with so many 'monster templates' to use.

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk

jtrowell
19-09-2015, 08:26
Having seen what they can do in their sci-fi settings with Deadzone/Warpath/Dreadball, I can say that they have some very good sculptors, but it's more a case of their design choices not always being the best on the fantasy side, maybe because they tryied too hard to look different from GW.

Take the ogres for exemple, they tend to suffer a problem that a lot of large Mantic Fantasy models have : small legs that don't look like they would support the upper body.

You have an exemple of that with the ogre warlock above, but you will also note that with the braves they changed the design and those didn't skip leg day at the gym (the warlock was sculpted a while ago before the braves, even if both where released at the same time)

One of the sculptors that made many Mantic models is Remy Tremblay and he can do some very good models, but sometimes the design that he has to works with is not optimal.
Looks at his blog for exemples of his work : http://remytremblay-sculpture.blogspot.fr/
(However he now works full time with Studio McVey, with some people wondering if maybe he might come back do some more freelancing in the future)

Commissar Vaughn
19-09-2015, 10:44
I think of lot of EX-GW staffed companies find themselves constrained by trying to make models thats dont look something GW makes, which causes stylistic problems...theyre sort of painted into a corner before they even start. hopefully they'll overcome this sort of mental block.

Also they seem to jump on the "Plate Armour for everyone!" bandwagon which is doing the rounds these days. A little variation wouldnt go amiss. Full Plate is pretty rare in real life but Its rare you see a modern scifi or fantasy sculpt without it these days . In real life of course we had several millenia of of fabric armour or stuff like scale, or mail, a brief affair with plate and then we gave up on armour till it came back in ceramic and fabric form ...yet no orcs in mail or ogres in scale...plate for all!

But theres nothing technically wrong with those Ogres.
I find them a little cluttered with junk Id just cut away (cant stand to many "details", i.e clutter getting in the way of my paint brush!) but thats been true of all GW figures for a long time. I prefer a cleaner sculpt.
Spell effects. Never seen one that didnt look crap. Stop it, all of you. My imagination is capable of much more detail than any sculpting tool.
Poses- Sensible neutral poses. Never liked GW's attempts to have every model trying to move in 8 directions at once. Its unrealistic and they are hard to rank up, and then they overbalance, fall off the table and smash. Rediculous. Also makes various scenes look stupid- a battle is long periods of boredom interspaced with short periods of bowel knotting terror. And in camp or on the march you dont do a lot of fighting. Unless something has gone terribly wrong, in which case your better off running away. As historical and fantasy game I prefer a neutral pose for this reason- it represents what the figure is mostly doing and doesn't get in the way of other things on the table. A pet peeve of mine is that with say the Victrix french infantry- mostly in a more or less marching pose- Great, thats what they'll spend most of the game doing. Except the 4 guys who suddenly seem to have decided to kneel down and shoot their mates in the bum...arrgh! Stop it!

Anyway , I find Mantics stuff is technically fine, but stylistically require a bit of getting used to. I also have the exact same opinion of GW these days, preffering its older models. Nothing Ive seen in last 5 years has interested me from GW.

Thats probably why my new fantasy armies are all Grenadier, Harlequin, Front Rank (for Bretonnians!) and Wargames Factory (for Skeletons).
Oh and my monsters all come from the pound shop.
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Much prefer her to any other Gigantic Spider model Ive ever seen, from anywhere, shes made from a soft plastic (impossible to break!) and she only cost 25p. Bloody Brilliant.

Archibald_TK
19-09-2015, 12:36
Mantic's Law:
"As an online AoS discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Mantic models approaches 1"


I thought I read the retailers could send back the unsold stock after a time for 'store credit'. Given that Tau and HH are due shortly I'm surprised they don't do this and use it to stock up on Tau/HH which are likely to sell much better than AoS.
I am not aware that such a thing is possible, at least not unless a store made a specific arrangement with GW. On the other hand we didn't have the issue of overstocking so the question never popped up in the first place.

As far as I am aware, the store in the OP sold two third of its boxes during the release week (which is quite an impressive amount as I think they don't do discount normally), the vast majority of them the first week-end. It's afterward that things went sour. Same pattern for us, surprisingly more sales of boxes and books than expected when they were released, then sudden drop and nothing has really changed since. Overall:

- We made more money out of the AoS scenery than the miniatures.
- Independent Sigmarines boxes didn't encounter much of a success, which is understandable since the base box killed their sales.
- Despite what I've read on the Internet, on our side the real loosers are Khorne guys. Abysmal sales.
- We have customers that invested quite a lot of money in these releases, but they are few in numbers. To put it simply, we did a lot of money out of a few people, which is short term acceptable and long term bad.
- These past weeks I've seen a new trend, I've had to order older WFB kits for multiple customers and all have in common that they are in the mindset of "I am finishing my WFB army before it's too late".

With the Tau soon upon us, AoS is basically forgotten. I'm no longer reordering what I'm not forced to. It's a shame, the game had a surprisingly huge potential that has yet to be exploited. But with the huge price of the range and the lack of local interest it is no longer a product we can justify carrying on our shelves in any decent number. We will see what happens in the following months but I'm not optimistic, 40K will simply devour any steam AoS could try to gather.

There is so much to say about how that release was handled by GW that just thinking about typing it I lose my motivation. But I will say something, if AoS ends up as a failure, it will be GW fault, and GW fault only. Not stores, not customers, just GW. They had access to all the cards they could have hopped for, they are the ones to chose what to put in their own hand, their move!

narradisall
19-09-2015, 12:52
If 30k drops I can see that cannibalising more interest in AoS.

Vazalaar
19-09-2015, 13:15
Having seen what they can do in their sci-fi settings with Deadzone/Warpath/Dreadball, I can say that they have some very good sculptors, but it's more a case of their design choices not always being the best on the fantasy side, maybe because they tryied too hard to look different from GW.

Take the ogres for exemple, they tend to suffer a problem that a lot of large Mantic Fantasy models have : small legs that don't look like they would support the upper body.

You have an exemple of that with the ogre warlock above, but you will also note that with the braves they changed the design and those didn't skip leg day at the gym (the warlock was sculpted a while ago before the braves, even if both where released at the same time)

One of the sculptors that made many Mantic models is Remy Tremblay and he can do some very good models, but sometimes the design that he has to works with is not optimal.
Looks at his blog for exemples of his work : http://remytremblay-sculpture.blogspot.fr/
(However he now works full time with Studio McVey, with some people wondering if maybe he might come back do some more freelancing in the future)

There are lots of good freelance sculptors, Mantic seems to prefer to work with the not so good ones and if they have an excellent sculptor as Remy Tremblay they lose him. Why isn't he working full time for Mantic? If Studio McVey can pay him fulltime why not Mantic??

Compared to all the miniatures companies, Mantic its miniatures are below average. Which is a shame as they cleary have a better view/mindset than GW.


Mantic's Law:
"As an online AoS discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Mantic models approaches 1"


I am not aware that such a thing is possible, at least not unless a store made a specific arrangement with GW. On the other hand we didn't have the issue of overstocking so the question never popped up in the first place.

As far as I am aware, the store in the OP sold two third of its boxes during the release week (which is quite an impressive amount as I think they don't do discount normally), the vast majority of them the first week-end. It's afterward that things went sour. Same pattern for us, surprisingly more sales of boxes and books than expected when they were released, then sudden drop and nothing has really changed since. Overall:

- We made more money out of the AoS scenery than the miniatures.
- Independent Sigmarines boxes didn't encounter much of a success, which is understandable since the base box killed their sales.
- Despite what I've read on the Internet, on our side the real loosers are Khorne guys. Abysmal sales.
- We have customers that invested quite a lot of money in these releases, but they are few in numbers. To put it simply, we did a lot of money out of a few people, which is short term acceptable and long term bad.
- These past weeks I've seen a new trend, I've had to order older WFB kits for multiple customers and all have in common that they are in the mindset of "I am finishing my WFB army before it's too late".

With the Tau soon upon us, AoS is basically forgotten. I'm no longer reordering what I'm not forced to. It's a shame, the game had a surprisingly huge potential that has yet to be exploited. But with the huge price of the range and the lack of local interest it is no longer a product we can justify carrying on our shelves in any decent number. We will see what happens in the following months but I'm not optimistic, 40K will simply devour any steam AoS could try to gather.

There is so much to say about how that release was handled by GW that just thinking about typing it I lose my motivation. But I will say something, if AoS ends up as a failure, it will be GW fault, and GW fault only. Not stores, not customers, just GW. They had access to all the cards they could have hopped for, they are the ones to chose what to put in their own hand, their move!

Great and interesting post!

datalink7
19-09-2015, 15:02
Mantic's Law:
"As an online AoS discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Mantic models approaches 1"


I am not aware that such a thing is possible, at least not unless a store made a specific arrangement with GW. On the other hand we didn't have the issue of overstocking so the question never popped up in the first place.

As far as I am aware, the store in the OP sold two third of its boxes during the release week (which is quite an impressive amount as I think they don't do discount normally), the vast majority of them the first week-end. It's afterward that things went sour. Same pattern for us, surprisingly more sales of boxes and books than expected when they were released, then sudden drop and nothing has really changed since. Overall:

- We made more money out of the AoS scenery than the miniatures.
- Independent Sigmarines boxes didn't encounter much of a success, which is understandable since the base box killed their sales.
- Despite what I've read on the Internet, on our side the real loosers are Khorne guys. Abysmal sales.
- We have customers that invested quite a lot of money in these releases, but they are few in numbers. To put it simply, we did a lot of money out of a few people, which is short term acceptable and long term bad.
- These past weeks I've seen a new trend, I've had to order older WFB kits for multiple customers and all have in common that they are in the mindset of "I am finishing my WFB army before it's too late".

With the Tau soon upon us, AoS is basically forgotten. I'm no longer reordering what I'm not forced to. It's a shame, the game had a surprisingly huge potential that has yet to be exploited. But with the huge price of the range and the lack of local interest it is no longer a product we can justify carrying on our shelves in any decent number. We will see what happens in the following months but I'm not optimistic, 40K will simply devour any steam AoS could try to gather.

There is so much to say about how that release was handled by GW that just thinking about typing it I lose my motivation. But I will say something, if AoS ends up as a failure, it will be GW fault, and GW fault only. Not stores, not customers, just GW. They had access to all the cards they could have hopped for, they are the ones to chose what to put in their own hand, their move!

Interesting read. Thanks for the post.

Voss
19-09-2015, 15:40
If 30k drops I can see that cannibalising more interest in AoS.

any kind of release will cannibalize interest in AoS. The opportunity cost for shoving sigmarine after sigmarine out the door was stupidly high.

HelloKitty
19-09-2015, 15:45
That and interest in 30k is many times higher than fantasy seemingly


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Tokamak
19-09-2015, 16:44
40K would survive an AoS treatment much better due to how similar it already is. Not knocking 40k or anything but it's core rules can more easily be dialed up or down in complexity. 30k is especially cool in the sense that it doesn't have to replace 40k and can just exist next to it as two different systems with miniatures that can even be interchanged.

It makes the idea of actually axing WFB rather than offering an alternative next to it all the more daft. I can already imagine the stuck up board room meeting that idea got settled on.


- These past weeks I've seen a new trend, I've had to order older WFB kits for multiple customers and all have in common that they are in the mindset of "I am finishing my WFB army before it's too late".

That's me right there. AoS kicked my ass into gear and started working on actually completing armies because this well is eventually going to dry up.

Thanks for the info.

Buddy Bear
20-09-2015, 02:49
I finished my army before Age of Sigmar came out, although I'm thinking of maybe adding a handful more things. Maybe round out my Greatswords from 20 to 30, Flagellants from 30 to 40, and Archers from 20 to 30 or 40 (possibly to use them as an Archer Horde in Kings of War. I'm tempted by the idea of doing the same with my 28 Handgunners and 28 Crossbowmen, boosting them to 40 so they can be taken as Hordes in Kings of War).

Greyshadow
20-09-2015, 05:39
I am thinking along the same lines Buddy. There is a bit of a sense of urgency to buy stuff for me in case they disappear (or get repackaged). GW are not in my good books at the moment. I am now asking myself though if what I do get will make it to the battlefield due to the current state of the game.

Spiney Norman
20-09-2015, 08:45
40K would survive an AoS treatment much better due to how similar it already is. Not knocking 40k or anything but it's core rules can more easily be dialed up or down in complexity. 30k is especially cool in the sense that it doesn't have to replace 40k and can just exist next to it as two different systems with miniatures that can even be interchanged.

It makes the idea of actually axing WFB rather than offering an alternative next to it all the more daft. I can already imagine the stuck up board room meeting that idea got settled on.



That's me right there. AoS kicked my ass into gear and started working on actually completing armies because this well is eventually going to dry up.

Thanks for the info.

I disagree, ditching points values would kill the existing 40k customer base just as efficiently as it did with the fantasy customer base, the only difference is that the 40k customer base is still extremely profitable and does not need killing off.

30k is already extremely popular due to the top notch range of BL novels that frame the setting, plastic 30k is probably going to be a license to print money given how popular the massively overpriced FW range has been.

Buddy Bear
20-09-2015, 09:43
We're probably looking at more than just a rules revamp for 40k. I feel like anyone who thinks 40k getting AOS'd doesn't also mean that it'll undergo similarly drastic lore changes is kidding themselves. Just look at all the things they've been saying in the books since the onset of 7th edition. They've been setting up a 40k End Times scenario, including the removal of Slaanesh as indicated by Codex: Harlequins, for quite some time. We just never thought it was something they'd seriously pull the trigger on because they never have before... but now they have. And they'll do it to 40k for a lot of the same reasons they did it to Fantasy, because they'll want a setting they can more easily copyright. They can't copyright 40k as it stands, so they'll burn it down just like they did Warhammer Fantasy and start over from scratch.

Holier Than Thou
20-09-2015, 10:30
I finished my army before Age of Sigmar came out, although I'm thinking of maybe adding a handful more things. Maybe round out my Greatswords from 20 to 30, Flagellants from 30 to 40, and Archers from 20 to 30 or 40 (possibly to use them as an Archer Horde in Kings of War. I'm tempted by the idea of doing the same with my 28 Handgunners and 28 Crossbowmen, boosting them to 40 so they can be taken as Hordes in Kings of War).

From eBay I hope?

Buddy Bear
20-09-2015, 10:35
More than likely. I'm certainly not ordering from GW Direct.

burzikak
20-09-2015, 14:15
- These past weeks I've seen a new trend, I've had to order older WFB kits for multiple customers and all have in common that they are in the mindset of "I am finishing my WFB army before it's too late".


This is what I did, although I saw the writing on the wall with end times. When AoS was released and my suspicions were confirmed I bought what I needed to finish my high elf army.

Haven't bought any gw since then...

jet_palero
21-09-2015, 04:30
The two new ogre models (berserkers and wizard) look fantastic!
220160
220159

Subjective opinions are subjective.

But I agree, those look really great. I never liked GW's fat ogres, I preferred the older ones that used to merc for the empire. These fellas look seriously fierce to me. I could see building an army of them.

I also think a lot of the derision some of mantic's miniatures got was purely from the paint jobs. GW has had a great stable of painters, and a good paint job sells models. Some of GW's more recent models have been laughed at upon release because of bad paint jobs, where the actual model was still quite well sculpted (even if it was in CAD).

Tupinamba
21-09-2015, 14:14
Having seen what they can do in their sci-fi settings with Deadzone/Warpath/Dreadball, I can say that they have some very good sculptors, but it's more a case of their design choices not always being the best on the fantasy side, maybe because they tryied too hard to look different from GW.

Take the ogres for exemple, they tend to suffer a problem that a lot of large Mantic Fantasy models have : small legs that don't look like they would support the upper body.

You have an exemple of that with the ogre warlock above, but you will also note that with the braves they changed the design and those didn't skip leg day at the gym (the warlock was sculpted a while ago before the braves, even if both where released at the same time)

One of the sculptors that made many Mantic models is Remy Tremblay and he can do some very good models, but sometimes the design that he has to works with is not optimal.
Looks at his blog for exemples of his work : http://remytremblay-sculpture.blogspot.fr/
(However he now works full time with Studio McVey, with some people wondering if maybe he might come back do some more freelancing in the future)

+1

Personally, I hope they get away from the WOW look of most of their fantasy line. They are certainly able to make very good models when they want it.

vlad78
21-09-2015, 18:43
I disagree, ditching points values would kill the existing 40k customer base just as efficiently as it did with the fantasy customer base, the only difference is that the 40k customer base is still extremely profitable and does not need killing off.

30k is already extremely popular due to the top notch range of BL novels that frame the setting, plastic 30k is probably going to be a license to print money given how popular the massively overpriced FW range has been.

It used to be due to a top notch rang of BL novels.

BL changes concerning its business policies and the ever growing number of small novels, audiobooks, limited editions available for a limit time instead of proper paper novels and a huge decrease of quality have slowed the pace of the heresy to a crawl.
Only a thing or two worth of our time are released at most each year.

Imho even the tales of the heresy have started to fall appart.

narradisall
22-09-2015, 09:04
Having only started reading the heresy the whole way through last year it is rather noticeable. So much is happening in the start and the last several books I've read seem to have crawled to a stop or be going backwards. They still have a lot to go through before they even get to terra and then I imagine terra will be a number of books, but they just seem to be planning to drag the series out another 20 years at this rate.

Tokamak
22-09-2015, 13:37
I disagree, ditching points values would kill the existing 40k customer base just as efficiently as it did with the fantasy customer base, the only difference is that the 40k customer base is still extremely profitable and does not need killing off.

30k is already extremely popular due to the top notch range of BL novels that frame the setting, plastic 30k is probably going to be a license to print money given how popular the massively overpriced FW range has been.

Though the lack of army building would be a huge flaw, a simplified version of 40k would work way better. 40k is already much more interactive with the terrain, everything is more dynamic which means you get to strip more away without losing the essence.

Replacing 40k with such a game would be a mistake. But having a 30k game as an alternative, an entry game would be brilliant, especially because all the 30k miniatures can easily be used in 40k.

duffybear1988
22-09-2015, 13:52
40K would survive an AoS treatment much better due to how similar it already is.

If 40k got the AoS treatment we would see stuff like 1 guardsmen squad = 1 knight titan. I'm not sure I can live in that world.

English 2000
22-09-2015, 13:55
40k has been hurting around here for a while and it's only getting worse.

Buddy Bear
22-09-2015, 14:08
40K would survive an AoS treatment much better due to how similar it already is.

That presumes just a rules change. My guess is that we'll see a radical setting change, too. Just read between the lines on a lot of the newest releases. A 40k End Times is clearly in the works.

Tokamak
22-09-2015, 14:18
Yeah that would be, from where I'm standing, a huge mistake.

Erloas
22-09-2015, 17:49
So after following a bit more I cam upon an investor who wrote up some thoughts on GW (http://www.iii.co.uk/news-opinion/richard-beddard/games-workshop-agm%3A-relentless-profit-machine). He wasn't a gamer but did go to their investor meeting and has been following the news around it.


Maybe you think you’re a customer, or a potential customer, because you like playing games. But this is the important bit. This is the bit written in every Games Workshop annual report. The company’s mission statement is “we make the best fantasy miniatures in the world and sell them globally at a profit and we intend to do this forever.”

It does not mention games. In conversation, I’m told that the word “Game” in Games Workshop encourages the misconception that games are its business, but that only about 20% of Games Workshop’s customers are gamers. The rest are modellers and collectors. Maybe half of them think about playing now and then. The other half have no intention. People actually walk into the stores because they’re curious about modelling fantastic armies.

I guess that means I'm not a GW customer any more. I like modeling and will probably end up doing more modeling than gaming in the future, but most of that comes from having a family. If that is true, and that is the path they are going down I'm not going to be support them any more.

Someone here posted a link to this, I'm not sure which threat it was in any more, but I found this in the article and it was enlightening.

Katastrophe
22-09-2015, 18:15
there is a thread on this in GW General

Kegslayer
22-09-2015, 18:57
I'm not sure why this is a big deal. 20% is the usual discount in most places and not just for gw. Should I create a post about my local game store doing 50% off mantic. Its not a big deal either. Each to their own obviously but 20% isn't a great deal. When I got my starters and books I got 30% off

Buddy Bear
22-09-2015, 19:49
It says quite a bit if that store regularly sold GW product at regular price without issue, but with Age of Sigmar they had to sell it with discounts. It implies that they couldn't have sold it otherwise. Not surprising, given that I've seen numerous independent retailers selling it on Amazon and eBay for even deeper discounts. The kind of discounts which leave them with a handful of dollars of profit.

Archibald_TK
22-09-2015, 23:59
Each to their own obviously but 20% isn't a great deal. When I got my starters and books I got 30% off
Please don't say that kind of nonsensical comments. 20% is a big deal and few B&M stores will do such a large discount as it requires a constant decent rate of box sales to be worth it. At 30% a typical store in their country would do a 1% of RRP profit, yup out of a 100€ kit that they would sell 70€ they would get 1€ profit. You do 30% discount when you want to make some stocks disappear fast and retrieve the money invested in them, or when you think that hurting a competitor sales is more important than your own profit. Stores are not charity and don't do that kind of things just for the sake of it.

To think that everywhere I read that people consider that such discounts are "the norm" just shows how messed up the perception of GW products has become. A product where selling at RRP is considered nonsensical and an exception by the customers.

Even at only 20% the store itself that doesn't do that kind of discount normally is taking the risk of angering its customers who bought the game full price only two months ago. A discount so soon after the product has been released is not something you do without carefully thinking about it. Since with each passing day we are getting closer to the payment date to GW for the AoS orders I assume they're just trying to retrieve as much money as possible out of the boxes.

Handmaiden
23-09-2015, 00:19
Last I checked it the AoS starter set was at 10% off alongside the 8th edition starter set at my local art shop. I live in West Bridgford, a pretty well off area of Nottingham, basically the mecca of warhammer. If it isn't selling here, there's no reason to believe it sells anywhere else.