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Dwarf Longbeard
27-09-2015, 22:47
I was looking at the new Skarbrand model as well as the Bloodthirster, seeing as the models for them look a lot bigger than the finecast one's I was wondering if GW re do the Daemon codex will the Greater Daemons get upgraded to being a gargantuan creature?
I think this wouldn't be too bad of an upgrade as it would make them a little bit more survivable and looking at how powerful they seem to be in fantasy and AoS the rules for them in 40k seem a bit underwhelming for the size and price of the model.

Snake Tortoise
27-09-2015, 23:25
I don't think it's unreasonable to speculate on that, but the daemonkin book suggests not since they could have used that release to start introducing gargantuan greater daemons. On top of that monstrous creatures have been getting bigger anyway. The tyranid hive tyrant and carnifex are both significantly bigger than the old models that were made around the same time as the previous bloodthirster. They haven't been scaled up quite as much but the new bloodthirster is still around the same size as the trygon, mawloc, tervigon, T-fex etc. If the next tyranid codex comes before daemons and some of their monstrous creatures become GMCs you might be proved right, but I wouldn't expect that to happen.

On top of that I don't think there's a precedent for an existing MC to be bumped up to GMC, though there is a precedent for it going the other way with the trygon.

In any case I wouldn't like to see it because for many people that's going to mean they no longer get to use their greater daemon/s. For many people doing a mono god daemon army it's going to cause problem to have one of the (relatively) few units they have access to being moved to the controversial GMC unit type

Spell_of_Destruction
28-09-2015, 00:40
This is the problem with the shift of scale we have seen in 40k in recent years.

For a long time a GD was among the largest, scariest things you could face on the tabletop. Now that we have *******' titans stomping around it makes GDs seem somewhat puny in comparison.

EDIT: Wow, warseer's swear filter is out of control. Doesn't even allow 'substitute' swear words.

Nazguire
28-09-2015, 03:02
There isn't any real need to bring them up to Gargantuan Monstrous Creature just because the model is a bit bigger.

I agree with SoD that the shift in scale of 40k which has essentially legitimised Apocalypse within ordinary games has made what were previously terrifying units to face in a game not that bad. Infantry are trivialised, Greater Daemons become inconveniences and the focus is on who has the biggest and baddest model.

mikesmight123
28-09-2015, 20:45
I think with every new daemonkin book a new gd in plastic will come. Fw has rules for LoW gd's, however there old and in need of a buff.

Karhedron
29-09-2015, 10:19
On top of that I don't think there's a precedent for an existing MC to be bumped up to GMC, though there is a precedent for it going the other way with the trygon.

The Wraithknight got bumped to a GC in the new Eldar dex. To be fair, the Blood thirster has access to an SD weapon so can still cause a lot of carnage.

insectum7
29-09-2015, 17:36
For a long time a GD was among the largest, scariest things you could face on the tabletop. Now that we have *******' titans stomping around it makes GDs seem somewhat puny in comparison.


Eh. . . in 2nd a Land Raider was much bigger than a GD, heck, a Rhino was. In 3rd the Land Raider was still bigger than the larger GD models, the Monolith larger still. Vehicles have basically always been bigger than the Greater Daemons.

gwarsh41
30-09-2015, 14:57
It isn't too far fetched, but it also depends on what the next daemon codex is like. In the previous codex, PBs were 15pt, T5 with FnP and I am pretty sure they could run back then as well, they were also 15pt or something though. Flamers had S5 ap3 templates, and Tzeentch heralds on chariots were balls up awesome. Plus everything had EW.

The book went from more of a marine sized army, with MCs instead of vehicles, to something between marines and tyranids.

I would love to see GDs bumped up in power. Give Khorne S8 base so it can scare stuff again. The old days of a greater daemon just walking around, only being downed in combat by other dedicated CC monsters (like SS tda, carnifex, or whatever) were cool and thematic. Now when 10 space marines shoot you with bolters, then you die to krak grenades... its just sad.

Give GDs thunderstomp from the old fantasy! I want to step on some little people!

Dark Primus
30-09-2015, 15:45
It isn't too far fetched, but it also depends on what the next daemon codex is like. In the previous codex, PBs were 15pt, T5 with FnP and I am pretty sure they could run back then as well, they were also 15pt or something though. Flamers had S5 ap3 templates, and Tzeentch heralds on chariots were balls up awesome. Plus everything had EW.

The book went from more of a marine sized army, with MCs instead of vehicles, to something between marines and tyranids.

I would love to see GDs bumped up in power. Give Khorne S8 base so it can scare stuff again. The old days of a greater daemon just walking around, only being downed in combat by other dedicated CC monsters (like SS tda, carnifex, or whatever) were cool and thematic. Now when 10 space marines shoot you with bolters, then you die to krak grenades... its just sad.

Give GDs thunderstomp from the old fantasy! I want to step on some little people!
In the previous codex the flamers shooting flames had no fixed strenght, they wounded everything on 4+ and no armor saves could be taken against it.

gwarsh41
30-09-2015, 15:55
I might have been thinking of the tzeentch herald on chariot again. That dude was pretty boss.

mikesmight123
02-10-2015, 07:07
Wait, so do you guys think there will be a new daemons and chaos marines codex. I thought the daemonkin were replacing both books

wyvirn
02-10-2015, 13:35
Personally, I'm starting to think Khorne Daemonkin was a one off, to give rules for the new Bloodthirster and to allow Khorne to summon without psykers. It's been six months, and one codex does not make a pattern, no matter how many rumors say otherwise.

I would love to be proven wrong and turned into a spawn for my heresy (I've got a chaos army on he back burner), but I doubt the Daemonkin series is going to usher in a new age of darkness in 40k.


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gwarsh41
02-10-2015, 14:09
Wait, so do you guys think there will be a new daemons and chaos marines codex. I thought the daemonkin were replacing both books

I don't think we will be losing CSM and daemons. The kin books do not allow for unaligned chaos, or mixed daemons working together.

Snake Tortoise
02-10-2015, 19:03
It isn't too far fetched, but it also depends on what the next daemon codex is like. In the previous codex, PBs were 15pt, T5 with FnP and I am pretty sure they could run back then as well, they were also 15pt or something though. Flamers had S5 ap3 templates, and Tzeentch heralds on chariots were balls up awesome. Plus everything had EW.

The book went from more of a marine sized army, with MCs instead of vehicles, to something between marines and tyranids.

I would love to see GDs bumped up in power. Give Khorne S8 base so it can scare stuff again. The old days of a greater daemon just walking around, only being downed in combat by other dedicated CC monsters (like SS tda, carnifex, or whatever) were cool and thematic. Now when 10 space marines shoot you with bolters, then you die to krak grenades... its just sad.

Give GDs thunderstomp from the old fantasy! I want to step on some little people!

I like that lesser daemons were weakened and made cheaper. I think their points costs and abilities now seem more fitting to their representation in the background than the older troop daemons which were around space marine level. Somewhere between guardsman and space marine seems appropriate, and encourages larger unit sizes than they had in the past.

I'm torn on the power level of greater daemons. I'm generally against the prevalence of apocalypse level stuff in 40k and I'm in favour of squads of infantry taking down larger, more powerful targets through weight of numbers. In that respect I really like the D axe bloodthirster because it hits hard enough to destroy superheavies, GMCs and powerful characters, but unlike a wraithknight normal rank and file infantry can interact with it and enough small arms fire can kill it. It would be good for the game if the other greater daemons could be around the same power level.

Scammel
03-10-2015, 14:09
Greater Daemons already have been upgraded - they were made significantly beefier in the latest book and I'd be very, very surprised if that wasn't done with new models in mind.


Personally, I'm starting to think Khorne Daemonkin was a one off, to give rules for the new Bloodthirster and to allow Khorne to summon without psykers. It's been six months, and one codex does not make a pattern, no matter how many rumors say otherwise.

Hastings says Tzeentch Daemonkin, so Tzeentch Daemonkin are confirmed. About 1% of what he says is 'rumour', the rest of it is the release schedule.

Snake Tortoise
03-10-2015, 14:58
Hastings says Tzeentch Daemonkin, so Tzeentch Daemonkin are confirmed. About 1% of what he says is 'rumour', the rest of it is the release schedule.

I've got high hopes for that codex. I was skeptical about KDK initially but very impressed with what GW did with it; the blood tithe table was such a great idea and I'm a fan of everything they introduced in that book. TDK has fantastic potential if they introduce some sort of psychic tithe thing, and I can't wait to see what they do with the Lord of Change- both model and rules.

wyvirn
03-10-2015, 15:35
Greater Daemons already have been upgraded - they were made significantly beefier in the latest book and I'd be very, very surprised if that wasn't done with new models in mind.



Hastings says Tzeentch Daemonkin, so Tzeentch Daemonkin are confirmed. About 1% of what he says is 'rumour', the rest of it is the release schedule.

I can't seem to find the rumor from May, but I don't recall him saying the words "Tzeench Daemonkin", only a Tzeench related release.


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Scammel
03-10-2015, 15:53
Ok, I guess speaking in the strictest possible terms he hasn't confirmed a Daemonkin book, but with a plastic LoC, new plastic Daemons, plastic Tzeentchian CSM and mention of more than one 'Harlequins-esque' release, I'd be very happy to put money on it.

Warhams-77
03-10-2015, 15:57
No, Hastings did not say that. He posted about more Tzeentch Daemon model releases and also mentioned an (unnamed) tzeentch troop type for CSM. There have been no further Daemonkin books infos from a reliable rumormonger yet. Therefore the existence of such a book is fabricated stuff - as pointed out by Sad Panda several times who was also the original source (together with Darnok) about an upcoming Khorne book back in January 2015. He specifically mentioned Khorne Deamonkin is a one-shot product.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/150/630351.page#7492050 (and more of his later posts)

Regarding Tzeentch DK:


Sigmarines will be back for another wave, as will Khorne.
Dwarfs are early 2016 at best
Tzeentch is still a troll-rumour. Not gonna happen.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/1890/655944.page#8055982

Tzeentch Daemonkin has been vocally rumored by sites like BOLS and posters like Whisperer of Truth but this has never turned out to be correct at all. So it is wishlisting or whatever you prefer to call it. It's fine people post wrong rumors, but it is not helping to mix them all so it sounds to be reliable when it is not.

Greater Daemon(s) of Tzeentch together with the next Codex: Chaos Daemons? With the current state of rumors that seems more probable than more Daemonkin books.

As an interesting note, quite some parts of the Daemonkin mechanics are from the 1st Ed Epic Chaos army list, published in two White Dwarfs in 1990. Also the 2nd Edition 40k Codex: Chaos had some of that stuff in it. It would be a great change if GW goes further back to these roots for Chaos. It's fluffy and I too would welcome more of that.

Kegslayer
03-10-2015, 16:16
Some rumour mongerer did say all the greater daemons were done in plastic and were just waiting on a release. They claimed to have seen them also. Its from a while back but it was on here

Scammel
03-10-2015, 17:32
No, Hastings did not say that.

You'll very kindly point out the erroneous part of my previous post. Again, to summarise:

- Two 'Harlequin-sized' releases this year, including a book
- Plastic LoC
- NEW plastic Daemons (odd that they would be left without a book, no?)
- Plastic Tzeentch CSM (willing to place money on Rubrics)

So, whilst my very first statement on this might have been stronger than warranted, it strikes me as odd that with at least one other book release to come, it wouldn't be for units from otherwise completely different books, one of which wouldn't truly have a book per se. Again, willing to put money there.

Warhams-77
03-10-2015, 18:18
My posting took a bit longer (I read through some of the older discussions as it had all been said a while ago :)) and you had already corrected yourself. All fine. Sorry if I sounded harsh :) There has been a lot of made-up stuff doing the rounds regarding Chaos in the past year and that is getting a bit annoying.

Future Tzeentch kits do not have to be released in one go. The latest Tzeentch models (2012?) came separately from a new book, with a WD booklet for the Herald on foot (and the Slannesh charriot units). The CSM models could be released at a different time.

If Hastings, Harry or Darnok can clear up a bit of these cloudy parts it would be very welcome.

Scammel
03-10-2015, 18:35
My posting took a bit longer (I read through some of the older discussions as it had all been said a while ago :)) and you had already corrected yourself. All fine. Sorry if I sounded harsh :) There has been a lot of made-up stuff doing the rounds regarding Chaos in the past year and that is getting a bit annoying.

Future Tzeentch kits do not have to be released in one go. The latest Tzeentch models (2012?) came separately from a new book, with a WD booklet for the Herald on foot (and the Slannesh Strider units). The CSM models could be released at a different time.

If Hastings, Harry or Darnok can clear up a bit of these cloudy parts it would be very welcome.

No worries, and I agree - the scale and dedication of the Chaos playerbase combined with the extensive short shrift for such a major faction leads to a lot of people willing to spew and devour circumspect stuff. I try to pay very little attention to anything coming from anyone bar perhaps 3-4 folks.