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orry
30-09-2015, 00:32
I have not had a game yet, but have definitely become more interested in WH with the release of AOS. So many people have been complaining about no points. Here is a simple solution. Use the points from 8th edition. That's it. How different would they be if they did 9th? 1-5points/model up or down? I think the margin of error is close enough for it to work.

Buddy Bear
30-09-2015, 00:35
The problem with that is that a number of units have drastically changed in effectiveness from one to the next (Probably all, given that a large number of units which couldn't affect the most powerful units now have an equal chance of hurting them as they do a goblin). Even units change in effectiveness with the more models there are. 30 Handgunners, for instance, are better than three units of 10 Handgunners due to all the bonuses they gain for their increased numbers. Also, Sigmarines and Khorne Bloodbound aren't in 8th edition, so what would be their points values?

HelloKitty
30-09-2015, 00:49
The stats in AoS are extraordinarily different from 8th edition. The points in 8th edition bear no semblance to the units today.

Spiney Norman
30-09-2015, 01:14
The stats in AoS are extraordinarily different from 8th edition. The points in 8th edition bear no semblance to the units today.

You're assuming that the points costs in 8th edition were derived from stats, I doubt they were really, in a lot of cases points values in wfb and 40k seem almost arbitrary for how inappropriate they are to the actual effectiveness of the unit they represent. Of course using 8th ed points values to balance a game of AoS is utter nonsense, but I do also wonder whether doing so would make a game of AoS more or less balanced than using 8th edition points values in a game of wfb 8th edition.

Voss
30-09-2015, 02:08
Yeah, this idea doesn't work. Empire state troops auto hit and auto wound in large numbers. Chaos Warriors don't. Crossbows become machine guns, bret peasants get quad attacks for a turn. Zombie units glob up and devour the world, making more zombies as they go. 8th edition points weren't perfect, but they weren't that bad. AoS units are that bad, and 8th edition points (or even concepts) bear no resemblance to what the units became in AoS. Some mob units became high handed killers in AoS, others didn't and some are so disgusting they make former must-take elite units look like utter wastes of space.

Buddy Bear
30-09-2015, 02:40
You weren't kidding about the Zombies! I just looked them up. If you have 30 or more they hit and wound on a 3+ (and hit on a 2+ if they're within of a Corpse Cart), their standard bearer can resurrect D6 Zombies, for each dead enemy model they roll a D6 and on a 6 that adds another Zombie to the unit, they can merge with other Zombie units, and Death Wizards can summon more Zombies to the field (which, again, can merge together). Zombies can easily become an all-consuming horde of destruction.

Unwise
30-09-2015, 05:03
For every complex problem there is a simple solution...that is almost invariably wrong.

The issues with AoS go far beyond points values. I hardly know where to begin and don't have the inclination to anymore.

Buddy Bear
30-09-2015, 05:25
For every complex problem there is a simple solution...that is almost invariably wrong.

The issues with AoS go far beyond points values. I hardly know where to begin and don't have the inclination to anymore.

Yeah, this "solution" makes the assumption that units in Warhammer Fantasy are directly comparable to their counterparts in Age of Sigmar with the exact same capabilities, when they're not at all. Not even close. Just look at the aforementioned Zombies. When fighting a Steam Tank in Warhammer Fantasy, they hit on 5+ and could only wound it on a 6+ while the Steam Tank got a 2+ save against their hits. In Age of Sigmar? If there're 30 or more, then they hit on a 3+ and they wound the Steam Tank on a 3+, which then rolls 3+ to save. Under those circumstances, how could anyone legitimately argue that WFB Zombies and AOS Zombies are equal to each other? They're not. The latter are clearly superior to the former, so if AOS had points, would AOS Zombies really be 3 points per model?

Kherith
30-09-2015, 07:05
I agree with a lot of the above, but surely the most obvious issue is that Stormcast and a number of Khorne units don't even have points values in 8th?

Lordmonkey
30-09-2015, 07:20
Kherith, see my signature for scrollbuilder. Its a simply aos army builder which lets you measure your army in wounds, warscrolls or "points". They've kept it very simple and I find that games are near enough balanced when playing with a reasonable crowd.

Aezeal
30-09-2015, 07:30
Then again zombies are slow as hell so you can kite them, it's not like deathstars are something new. I must say I think comps might consider removing the 30+ rules (the 20+ rules are fine I think). Skeleton spearmen getting 3 attacks each is a bit much for me too.

Voss
30-09-2015, 13:51
Then again zombies are slow as hell so you can kite them, it's not like deathstars are something new. I must say I think comps might consider removing the 30+ rules (the 20+ rules are fine I think). Skeleton spearmen getting 3 attacks each is a bit much for me too.

But it is like that all over the place. Comp rules for toning that sort of thing down might as well rewrite the warscrolls entirely.

Kherith
30-09-2015, 18:26
Kherith, see my signature for scrollbuilder. Its a simply aos army builder which lets you measure your army in wounds, warscrolls or "points". They've kept it very simple and I find that games are near enough balanced when playing with a reasonable crowd.

Thanks for that I might take a look, but to clarify I was only pointing out a major flaw in using 8th ed points rather than looking for a comprehensive armybuilder or comp pack for AoS. I actually find balancing it yourself and trying to make a game fun works fine for me in my group.

orry
01-10-2015, 01:14
Ok, I did not take into account the new units.....I was thinking more about people with old armys leaving the game. Yes it is not perfect, but I think if you took an equal amount of points based on past lists it would be pretty close. Am I way off?

HelloKitty
01-10-2015, 02:05
Yes you are way off


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Col. Tartleton
01-10-2015, 02:47
It'd require a fairly lengthy explanation just to do a then and now of a Skaven Clanrat vs an Imperial State Trooper. Let alone a cost analysis of everything. It is safe to say that the IST is better than the SCR, probably by about the same margin as before. However the math is totally different now, so I can't just compare X to Y. There are different and I think more factors at play now which determine value.

Like in a points based system it'd generally be better to pick a slave for 2 points instead of a clanrat for 4 points. Slaves were generally going to be better for that point cost than clanrats. Now the difference between them is pretty small. Slaves have worse stats and better abilities. So they're probably about equal. Which is great, because they have the same cost now, 0. But then stormvermin are unquestionably better for that cost... So there's that. Always take all stormvermin all the time! They're better than State Troops.

:angel:

Buddy Bear
01-10-2015, 03:08
Ok, I did not take into account the new units.....I was thinking more about people with old armys leaving the game. Yes it is not perfect, but I think if you took an equal amount of points based on past lists it would be pretty close. Am I way off?

Please read my most recent post above to see just how drastically different a unit of Zombies are in AOS versus what they did in Fantasy.